I-Y18331 and Vlachs

[Shubotai]

Vlachs or Aromanians is a south-balkan-romance (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:South-Balkan-Romance-languages.png) speaking group of the southern Balkans. However, Vlachs are not Romanians neither Bulgarians, nor Albanians and not exactly Greeks even. Both linguistically and genetically they are slightly different from their neighbours from many markers (http://ychrom.invint.net/upload/iblock/5fa/Bosch%202006%20Paternal%20and%20maternal%20lineage s%20in%20the%20Balkans%20show%20a.pdf). Notably, unlike other Balkan groups they don't exhibit any Germanic markers.

The total makeup of Vlachs roughly consists of 20% R1b, 20% R1a, 20% I2, 20% J2 and 20% E1b. The majority of I belongs to S20602 but it is broken in half Y18331 and half in the subclades Z17855 and PH908 found in central and northern Balkans.

I-Y18331 (https://www.nevgen.org/DesktopImages/Distribution_of_subclades_of_I-M423.png) is a y-dna haplogroup chiefly found in Greek, Albanian and North Macedonian samples and in smaller number in Belarus, Lithuania and adjacent areas in Ukraine and Russia. The subclades (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y18331/) found in Greece though are ancestral to those found in Belarus and Lithuania, so contrary to other I-L621 subclades it seems to have moved from south to north.

Romanian I does not include I-Y18331 so a Romanian origin can't be justified for the Vlachs at least from the perspective of the y-dna I marker. On the contrary, Vlachs usually migrated to the northern Balkans in countries like Romania and Hungary, mostly as merchants.

It takes up a little less than half of Greek I while the rest is divided among Y4460, Z17855 and PH908. I-Y18331, I-Z17855 and I-Y4460 do not belong to S17250, which includes PH908 but they are parallel to it. Appart from I-Y18331, Albanian and North Macedonian I mostly belongs to I-Z17855 and I-PH908 due to historical connections with Bulgarians and Serbians.

I2 subclades are distributed in mountain ranges at least in the Balkans, with I-PH908 mainly distributed in the Dinaric Alps, I-Z17855 in the Balkan mountains and I-Y18331 in the Pindus mountains. This may be concordant with a pastoral lifestyle.

106171
106172
106173
106174

[GalenStark]

Vlachs or Aromanians is a south-balkan-romance (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:South-Balkan-Romance-languages.png) speaking group of the southern Balkans. However, Vlachs are not Romanians neither Bulgarians, nor Albanians and not exactly Greeks even. Both linguistically and genetically they are slightly different from their neighbours from many markers (http://ychrom.invint.net/upload/iblock/5fa/Bosch%202006%20Paternal%20and%20maternal%20lineage s%20in%20the%20Balkans%20show%20a.pdf). Notably, unlike other Balkan groups they don't exhibit any Germanic markers.

The total makeup of Vlachs roughly consists of 20% R1b, 20% R1a, 20% I2, 20% J2 and 20% E1b. The majority of I belongs to S20602 but it is broken in half Y18331 and half in the subclades Z17855 and PH908 found in central and northern Balkans.

I-Y18331 (https://www.nevgen.org/DesktopImages/Distribution_of_subclades_of_I-M423.png) is a y-dna haplogroup chiefly found in Greek, Albanian and North Macedonian samples and in smaller number in Belarus, Lithuania and adjacent areas in Ukraine and Russia. The subclades (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y18331/) found in Greece though are ancestral to those found in Belarus and Lithuania, so contrary to other I-L621 subclades it seems to have moved from south to north.

Romanian I does not include I-Y18331 so a Romanian origin can't be justified for the Vlachs at least from the perspective of the y-dna I marker. On the contrary, Vlachs usually migrated to the northern Balkans in countries like Romania and Hungary, mostly as merchants.

It takes up a little less than half of Greek I while the rest is divided among Y4460, Z17855 and PH908. I-Y18331, I-Z17855 and I-Y4460 do not belong to S17250, which includes PH908 but they are parallel to it. Appart from I-Y18331, Albanian and North Macedonian I mostly belongs to I-Z17855 and I-PH908 due to historical connections with Bulgarians and Serbians.

I2 subclades are distributed in mountain ranges at least in the Balkans, with I-PH908 mainly distributed in the Dinaric Alps, I-Z17855 in the Balkan mountains and I-Y18331 in the Pindus mountains. This may be concordant with a pastoral lifestyle.

106171
106172
106173
106174

Do you have any details on what types of R1a Vlachs have, and if so, are there any more dominant haplotypes be they Z280 or M458?

[Shubotai]

I think this is better to be examined together with other Sclaveni tribes that entered the Greek peninsula in 630 CE because they didn't differentiate among locals. The Pindus mountains was also the entrance point for most of those tribes, but the one that stayed in Epirus and also with the Vlachs were the Vajuniti. It's going to be R-Z280 for the large part, specifically R-CTS3402 (xL365, Y2910), otherwise I don't know which south slavic subclade is prevalent, if it's YP335, L1280, Y2613 or other. Occasionally though there is M458, like there were some L260 samples close to a village that was named Lechchista in the past.

[GalenStark]

I think this is better to be examined together with other Sclaveni tribes that entered the Greek peninsula in 630 CE because they didn't differentiate among locals. The Pindus mountains was also the entrance point for most of those tribes, but the one that stayed in Epirus and also with the Vlachs were the Vajuniti. It's going to be R-Z280 for the large part, specifically R-CTS3402 (xL365, Y2910), otherwise I don't know which south slavic subclade is prevalent, if it's YP335, L1280, Y2613 or other. Occasionally though there is M458, like there were some L260 samples close to a village that was named Lechchista in the past.

Interesting. I actually have 23andme matches from Peloponnese that are R-L1029*, negative for YP417/YP263. Though L1029 also appears in Northern Greeks more often than not.

There is a L1029 haplotype so far only found in Albanians between West Macedonia and East Albania from the Reka to Dibra region down to Struga. Its tmrca and expansion between Albanians falls between 1000-1300ybp. So it could have arrived with Avaro-Slavs, but still no recent matches in this branch among other South Slavs.

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-Y133361/

Recently a study found 58.6% of Galicnik Mijaks were R-M458 and 25% R-U106. Considering the basal sample in Albanians originates in the Albanian portion of Reka, I wonder if it spread from those tribes there. The sample from Upper Reka is doing WGS soon. There's some Greeks in L1029 on FTDNA.

One Greek is YP417 from Thessaloniki. Another Greek on FTDNA shares the same branch under YP263 that so far is mostly found in southern Albanians :

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FT205939/

[GalenStark]

Duplicate: Delete

[Shubotai]

Yes, I have also got R-L1029 matches from Epirus, which as you said, is different than R-L1029 type found in northern Greeks of Macedonia and Thrace, so I think it's more of an Albanian thing. I actually hoped it could explain Illyrians, but if its MRCA is only 1000 years old that is simply impossible. It could still explain satem traits in modern Albanian though. Mind you, it is also possible for greek R1a-Z280 that it comes from an Albanian R1a cluster instead of a northern to southwestern axis from Bulgarian tribes. And the two southernmost slavic tribes of Peloponnese got R-L1280 like Serbians. But all of these tribes in general were related to the other tribes in Macedonia like Drogubites and Sagudates and I don't think they are M458. Research has only identified early old slavic artifacts with the Antes culture in central Ukraine.

To be fair, I am not even sure if I-Y18331 is the prevalent type in that 10% of Vlach I since they never got tested in depth, but an assumption based on the general type of Greek I, but what is certain is that it is definitely native. They could still fit a more northern profile though if they are I-PH908 and I-Z17855 etc.

[GalenStark]

Yes, I have also got R-L1029 matches from Epirus, which as you said, is different than R-L1029 type found in northern Greeks of Macedonia and Thrace, so I think it's more of an Albanian thing. I actually hoped it could explain Illyrians, but if its MRCA is only 1000 years old that is simply impossible. It could still explain satem traits in modern Albanian though. Mind you, it is also possible for greek R1a-Z280 that it comes from an Albanian R1a cluster instead of a northern to southwestern axis from Bulgarian tribes. And the two southernmost slavic tribes of Peloponnese got R-L1280 like Serbians. But all of these tribes in general were related to the other tribes in Macedonia like Drogubites and Sagudates and I don't think they are M458. Research has only identified early old slavic artifacts with the Antes culture in central Ukraine.

To be fair, I am not even sure if I-Y18331 is the prevalent type in that 10% of Vlach I since they never got tested in depth, but an assumption based on the general type of Greek I, but what is certain is that it is definitely native. They could still fit a more northern profile though if they are I-PH908 and I-Z17855 etc.

I'm not sure quite honestly. Supposedly the new sample is an outlier but the one other Albanian should keep tnrca within Albanians in the early medieval range. The most basal split out of Reka in Macedonia most likely. So, if ots not Avaro-Slavic, perhaps assimilated line brought with Bulgars or maybe earlier with Huns.

So far where the Balkans is concerned M458 is most dominant in South East Slavs from what I can tell. The dominance of M458 in Mijaks with the absence of I-Y3120. Though its just in Galicnik. The basal L1029 Greek on 23andme could belong to either of the branches outside the big two(YP417/YP263), both of which prevail in most South East Slavs.

The Albanian cluster that is just downstream L1029* is interesting, but likely was carried into Albania from a more easterly direction. The only M458 in ancient DNA was found in a late Hallstatt sample. He was low quality and couldn't be classified further. Then there's a upcoming basal R-L1029 found in La Tene. Specifically Iron Age Bohemia(Czechia), which is in peer review which is certainly shocking. Fast forward post migration and all the aDNA is Viking, West Slavic and East German.

I still think M458 was facilitated into the Balkans with Avaro-Slavic tribes and maybe in antiquity before being absorbed by Proto-Slavs was some pre-Slavic entity from Poland. Maybe Przeworzk.

Also, a new basal M458* was added to yfull. Sample has origins from Selanik/Thessaloniki. He claims Balkan Turk ancestry. In all probability of local extract. Certainly interested since he forms his own branch with someone.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M458/