Who is genetically more unique in terms of European genetics: Sardinian or Saami?

[Zanzibar]

The first group is like 80%+ EEF/Neolithic Farmer while the latter has loads of East Eurasian ancestry approximately 20-27% or more (which is very unique for Europe as most Euros have very little to none ENA/East Eurasian), combine with a lot of HG ancestry and the lowest EEF in Europe (at around 15% on average which is even less than other Uralics) The least Neolithic admixed Saami individual is around 10% EEF while having up to 30%+ Mongoloid ancestry. (but its an ancient sample). While the least EEF admixed modern Saami individual is around 13%. In my opinion, the two groups seem to represent the two modern extreme genetic clines of Europe.

So which of the two group is more unique in your opinion?

Average Sardinian using G25:
Target: Sardinian
Distance: 3.4602% / 0.03460174
82.2 TUR_Barcin_N
13.2 WHG
4.6 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke

Most EEF Sardinian sample:
Target: Sardinian:HGDP01075
Distance: 3.7687% / 0.03768683
84.8 TUR_Barcin_N
10.6 WHG
4.2 RUS_Volga-Kama_N
0.4 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke


Average Saami using G25: Krasnoyarsk_BA is kra001 which is the Siberian ancestry of Uralics (mostly similar to Nganasans and groups like Evenks).
Target: Saami
Distance: 3.2919% / 0.03291854
33.0 Baltic_LVA_MN
23.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
21.4 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke
16.2 TUR_Barcin_N
5.6 RUS_Volga-Kama_N

Most Eastern-shifted modern Saami individual: 27% Mongoloid
Target: Saami:GS000035025
Distance: 3.8466% / 0.03846558
27.8 RUS_Volga-Kama_N
27.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
17.4 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke
14.0 Baltic_LVA_HG
13.4 TUR_Barcin_N

Most East Eurasian-shifted ancient Saami: 32% Mongoloid
Target: FIN_Levanluhta_IA:DA238
Distance: 3.8468% / 0.03846838
32.0 Baltic_LVA_MN
31.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
17.4 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke
10.2 TUR_Barcin_N
7.2 RUS_Volga-Kama_N
1.6 RUS_Old_Bering_Uelen

[Komintasavalta]

the lowest EEF in Europe (at around 15% on average which is even less than other Uralics)

It's not lower than Nenetses. And even though Nenetses have arrived to Europe fairly recently, Siberian-like populations have inhabited the tundra regions of Europe since at least the time of Bolshoy Oleny Ostrov in the second millennium BC.

According to Nenets tradition, a people called Sikhirtya or Sirtya (Сихиртя or Сиртя) were the former inhabitants of Nenets regions of Europe: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Сиртя (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B8%D1%80%D1%82%D1%8F).

A Russian book about Sikhirtya speculated that Sikhirtya were a Samoyedic people who expanded to Europe before Nenetses (https://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/booksRu/A_Maloletko_Dr_narody_sibiri_5.pdf):


B.C. Burdov (1965, p. 257) wrote: "... the hunters of the sea beast, whom the Nenets called Siirtya [сииртя], could be the same Nenets, speaking only a special dialect of the Nenets language." That the Nenets understood the speech of Sikirtya, JI.A Chindina wrote (1992, p. 20).

The most reliable information should be considered from the Nenets. JI.B. Khomich (1970, 1976, p. 57, 58) quotes the words of the Nenets informant I. Salinder, who explained that they speak "As if in Nenets, only stuttering, but you can understand." If you rely on this message, then we can assume that the language of Sikhirt was Samoyed. [...]

Perhaps the ethnonym comes from from Nen. сихирць 'acquire an earthy complexion'. Or, according to the position of G.D. Verbova (Khomich L.V., 1976, p. 58), Nen. сихирць 'avoid, avoid'. Of these versions, the second seems to us preferable. L.V. Khomich (1964) proposed the following etymology: the ethnonym is based on the verb сиць 'make a hole, a hole' (Nen. си 'hole, hole'). However, L.P. Lashuk (1968, p. 190, 191) considered this etymology contrary to morphological norms Nenets language. A.V. Golovnev (1998) proposed a different etymology, which he reduces to Nen. си (ся) 'entrance to another world, sacred input'. [...]

Later, in 1953, V.N. Chernetsov quite definitely connected the ethnonym sikhirtya with the Ugric ethnonym сабир (савыр, сибир, сипыр). He derived the ethnonym s'ihir-t'a [written in the Latin alphabet; the letter h is superscripted] (the restored form s'ibir-t'an) from s'iBir, and he defined the second component -t'an as the general self-name of the Arctic tribes with meaning people. [...]

V.P. Chernetsov (1935) reported that the Nenets of the Venong clan, the patrimonies of the Northern Yamal, still met on the Yamal people living in earthen houses and hunting for sea animals. Nenets entered with them both in military clashes and in marital unions. V.P. Chernetsov even cites the pedigree of one of the branches of the Wenong clan, whose woman was married to the last sikhirtya. [...]

Nenets from Dolgoshelje (the tundra to the west of the lower geographic course of the Mezen river in the Urals) consider themselves the descendants of sikhirtya (Khomich JI.B., 1970). Nenka P.A. Khanzerova, who lived in 1968 on the Kanin Peninsula, reported that her grandfather and grandmother also considered themselves descendants of sikhirtya. [...]

P.-M. Lamartinier in the book "Traveling to the North Country", published in 1671, provides a description of the dwellings of the Borandays [борандайцев], the indigenous inhabitants of the Mezen tundra. Borandays lived in huts that were very carefully made of fish (cetaceans? - A.M.) bones. The huts were also covered with fish bones, mossed on top and lined around turf so good that no wind can penetrate inside otherwise both through doors arranged like a furnace mouth, and through a roof in which a window or hole is arranged through which light penetrates (Vasiliev V.I., 1970, p. 153).

A. Schrenk (1855) from the words of the Samoyeds gives a rather detailed description of the dwellings of sikhirtya. In the hills lying along the banks of Сииртеты (now the Сибирка River), a tributary of the Kara there are miraculous [чудские; en tiedä tarkoittaako tämä tshuudeja] caves in which copper and cast-iron were once found boilers with tin and lead residues. These hills are known among the Samoyeds under the name of Siirtes [сииртес]. Hills of almost quadrangular shape, their inside is empty and represents a quadrangular space, the walls of which are carved with beams like Russian living rooms. Only their roofs were not covered with tesa, why, in almost all caves, they failed or are believed to have been destroyed by industrialists who were looking for prey. Doors or exits of these underground huts were low and always facing east. The underground construction of aboriginal housing (according to A. Schrenk, it was a Finnish miracle [miracle = chud]) better protected from the cold and cold winds.

From an English-language conclusion of the book:


Coincidence of the area of settlement of Sikhirtya (according to Nenets legends) and the range of hydronyms on -бей allows you to combine them into a paradigm of genetic connection. Its toponymic field covers in the Arctic zone a vast territory from the Gydan Peninsula in the east to the Bolshezemelskaya tundra on west. Toponyms for -бей have a clear ethnic affinity: they were created by Samoyeds of Kulay culture, who once spoke the Kamasin language. Distribution of toponyms on -бей in the vast territory from the Sayan Mountains in the south to Yamal and the Polar Cis-Urals in the north is associated with the resettlement of Kulay carriers culture around the turn of the era (Fig. 36). It was the descendants of the Kulays that the Nenets, the recent inhabitants of the tundra, called Sikhirtya.

[Zanzibar]

It's not lower than Nenetses. And even though Nenetses have arrived to Europe fairly recently, Siberian-like populations have inhabited the tundra regions of Europe since at least the time of Bolshoy Oleny Ostrov in the second millennium BC.

According to Nenets tradition, a people called Sikhirtya or Sirtya (Сихиртя or Сиртя) were the former inhabitants of Nenets regions of Europe: https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Сиртя (https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%B8%D1%80%D1%82%D1%8F).

A Russian book about Sikhirtya speculated that Sikhirtya were a Samoyedic people who expanded to Europe before Nenetses (https://www.bulgari-istoria-2010.com/booksRu/A_Maloletko_Dr_narody_sibiri_5.pdf):


B.C. Burdov (1965, p. 257) wrote: "... the hunters of the sea beast, whom the Nenets called Siirtya [сииртя], could be the same Nenets, speaking only a special dialect of the Nenets language." That the Nenets understood the speech of Sikirtya, JI.A Chindina wrote (1992, p. 20).

The most reliable information should be considered from the Nenets. JI.B. Khomich (1970, 1976, p. 57, 58) quotes the words of the Nenets informant I. Salinder, who explained that they speak "As if in Nenets, only stuttering, but you can understand." If you rely on this message, then we can assume that the language of Sikhirt was Samoyed. [...]

Perhaps the ethnonym comes from from Nen. сихирць 'acquire an earthy complexion'. Or, according to the position of G.D. Verbova (Khomich L.V., 1976, p. 58), Nen. сихирць 'avoid, avoid'. Of these versions, the second seems to us preferable. L.V. Khomich (1964) proposed the following etymology: the ethnonym is based on the verb сиць 'make a hole, a hole' (Nen. си 'hole, hole'). However, L.P. Lashuk (1968, p. 190, 191) considered this etymology contrary to morphological norms Nenets language. A.V. Golovnev (1998) proposed a different etymology, which he reduces to Nen. си (ся) 'entrance to another world, sacred input'. [...]

Later, in 1953, V.N. Chernetsov quite definitely connected the ethnonym sikhirtya with the Ugric ethnonym сабир (савыр, сибир, сипыр). He derived the ethnonym s'ihir-t'a [written in the Latin alphabet; the letter h is superscripted] (the restored form s'ibir-t'an) from s'iBir, and he defined the second component -t'an as the general self-name of the Arctic tribes with meaning people. [...]

V.P. Chernetsov (1935) reported that the Nenets of the Venong clan, the patrimonies of the Northern Yamal, still met on the Yamal people living in earthen houses and hunting for sea animals. Nenets entered with them both in military clashes and in marital unions. V.P. Chernetsov even cites the pedigree of one of the branches of the Wenong clan, whose woman was married to the last sikhirtya. [...]

Nenets from Dolgoshelje (the tundra to the west of the lower geographic course of the Mezen river in the Urals) consider themselves the descendants of sikhirtya (Khomich JI.B., 1970). Nenka P.A. Khanzerova, who lived in 1968 on the Kanin Peninsula, reported that her grandfather and grandmother also considered themselves descendants of sikhirtya. [...]

P.-M. Lamartinier in the book "Traveling to the North Country", published in 1671, provides a description of the dwellings of the Borandays [борандайцев], the indigenous inhabitants of the Mezen tundra. Borandays lived in huts that were very carefully made of fish (cetaceans? - A.M.) bones. The huts were also covered with fish bones, mossed on top and lined around turf so good that no wind can penetrate inside otherwise both through doors arranged like a furnace mouth, and through a roof in which a window or hole is arranged through which light penetrates (Vasiliev V.I., 1970, p. 153).

A. Schrenk (1855) from the words of the Samoyeds gives a rather detailed description of the dwellings of sikhirtya. In the hills lying along the banks of Сииртеты (now the Сибирка River), a tributary of the Kara there are miraculous [чудские; en tiedä tarkoittaako tämä tshuudeja] caves in which copper and cast-iron were once found boilers with tin and lead residues. These hills are known among the Samoyeds under the name of Siirtes [сииртес]. Hills of almost quadrangular shape, their inside is empty and represents a quadrangular space, the walls of which are carved with beams like Russian living rooms. Only their roofs were not covered with tesa, why, in almost all caves, they failed or are believed to have been destroyed by industrialists who were looking for prey. Doors or exits of these underground huts were low and always facing east. The underground construction of aboriginal housing (according to A. Schrenk, it was a Finnish miracle [miracle = chud]) better protected from the cold and cold winds.

From an English-language conclusion of the book:


Coincidence of the area of settlement of Sikhirtya (according to Nenets legends) and the range of hydronyms on -бей allows you to combine them into a paradigm of genetic connection. Its toponymic field covers in the Arctic zone a vast territory from the Gydan Peninsula in the east to the Bolshezemelskaya tundra on west. Toponyms for -бей have a clear ethnic affinity: they were created by Samoyeds of Kulay culture, who once spoke the Kamasin language. Distribution of toponyms on -бей in the vast territory from the Sayan Mountains in the south to Yamal and the Polar Cis-Urals in the north is associated with the resettlement of Kulay carriers culture around the turn of the era (Fig. 36). It was the descendants of the Kulays that the Nenets, the recent inhabitants of the tundra, called Sikhirtya.

My bad. I should have correct myself to lower than most Uralics except those who are predominantly Siberian/Mongoloid. Nenets are predominantly Siberian. They seem to have around 5% EEF

Target: Nenets
Distance: 4.2898% / 0.04289797
68.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
10.8 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke
9.2 RUS_AfontovaGora3
6.0 Baltic_LVA_MN
5.4 TUR_Barcin_N

Compared to others like Khanty, Mansi, Selkup and Nganasan, the last one is 100% Mongoloid

P.S. Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o is roughly half EHG half Nganasan. It is need to improve the fits of Khanty and Mansi.

Target: Khanty
Distance: 4.7326% / 0.04732633
39.0 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
29.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
10.8 RUS_AfontovaGora3
10.2 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke
8.2 TUR_Barcin_N
2.4 RUS_Volga-Kama_N


Target: Mansi
Distance: 4.7191% / 0.04719095
48.2 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
22.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
9.8 TUR_Barcin_N
8.8 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke
7.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3
3.4 RUS_Volga-Kama_N

Target: Selkup
Distance: 5.4834% / 0.05483356
50.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
28.6 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
8.6 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke
7.8 RUS_AfontovaGora3
5.0 TUR_Barcin_N


Target: Nganassan: Yukagir Tundra is another Siberian ethnic group.
Distance: 6.4261% / 0.06426068
45.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
41.8 RUS_Yakutia_Ymyiakhtakh_LN
12.4 Yukagir_Tundra
0.6 WHG

Actually it looks like the Khanty, Mansi, Nenets, Selkup also have some Western Siberian Hunter Gatherer ancestry/WSHG which is predominantly ANE+some EHG (represented by pops like KAZ_Botai, RUS_Tyumen_HG, RUS_Sosonivoy_HG) but it will also raised their EEF slightly a bit.

[Lemminkäinen]

Sardinians are the most unique Europeans because they sre isolated to an island. No question about it.

Can you test Tungusic Evenks?

[Komintasavalta]

My bad. I should have correct myself to lower than most Uralics except those who are predominantly Siberian/Mongoloid. Nenets are predominantly Siberian. They seem to have around 5% EEF

There's also Kolvin Nenetses, who are komified Nenetses, who speak the Izhma Komi language, who wear Komi clothes, and who sometimes call themselves Komi. They might be less than 50% Siberian, but they might still have lower EEF than Saami. I haven't seen their genetic results.


Ancient Saami individual from Levanluhta Iron Age site in Finland.

I'm still not sure if Levänluhta is Saami. Pauli Rahkonen hypothesized that the Levänluhta burials were associated with a people speaking x-language, which is a term for a hypothetical language or languages that used to be spoken in Finland, which according to Rahkonen are possibly related to Meryan (https://journal.fi/susa/article/view/70231/31260):


The water burials in the Levänluhta (the Isokyrö parish) and Käldamäki (the former Vöyri parish) sites in Ostrobothnia have been a great mystery for the scholars because of their unique character. The dating of the burials is 5th–8th centuries AD. Similar burials are not known elsewhere in Finland or in its neighbouring areas. [...]

[Ante Aikio] refers to those unknown languages as _Paleo-Laplandic_ and in the inner parts of Finland _Paleo-Lakelandic_ (Aikio 2004: 64, Fig. 1). Janne Saarikivi (2004) studied obscure substrate words in the Finnish language and called the source language(s) _Paleo-European_. Pauli Rahkonen (2013) treated such hydronyms in the inner parts of Finland that originate from a Uralic language as not being derived from Proto-Finnic or Proto-Saami. He, following Jalo Kalima (1942), calls the language in question _West Uralic x-language_. The onomasticon belonging to this group is located almost exactly in the area of the archaeologically defined Culture of Textile Ceramics (ca 1900-800 BC). These hydronyms are found between the Upper Volga area and Ostrobothnia of Finland (Rahkonen 2013: 181-183, Fig. 24; Häkkinen 2014). [...]

Saami people, or at least the Saami language, began to spread towards Lapland since the Early Iron Age, but supposedly mainly soon after the beginning of the Common Era (Aikio 2006: 44; Saarikivi 2011). However, the names of the large rivers _Kyrönjoki_, _Vöyrinjoki _and _*Ätsävänjoki _in the studied district do not originate from Proto-Saami. In addition, the Saami people never and nowhere else had the habit of water burials. If the word _kyrö_ < _*kür(V)_ is a substrate word from some ancient Uralic language and if _vöyri_ is related to a possible Meryan word _*voγra_ and _*ätsä_ to Komi _adź_ < _*änč_(_V_), a very possible language behind these hydronyms is the above mentioned x-language. Such stems of toponyms as _vuoht-_, _voht-_ < Proto-Uralic _*ukti̮_ 'track over neck of land' and _vieksi-_, _vääksy-_, _viiks-_ 'short river or sound between two larger waters' are inherited from the language in question (Rahkonen 2013: 33-36, maps 24 and 25). The x-language arrived in Finland with the culture of Textile Ceramics (ibid.) and it is probable that its dialects were spoken for a long time alongside with Proto-Saami in the inlands of Finland. Levänluhta and Käldamäki are located on the approximate borderline of the culture of eastern Textile Ceramics.

However, it is also possible that the population who practiced water burials spoke some non-Uralic Paleo-European language. The uniting factor between the stems of the toponyms _*ätsä-_ and _vöyri-_ is that both of them are almost unique, especially if the stems _veur-_ and/or _vour-_ are not connected with _vöyri_. The rareness of these toponyms, together with the unique custom to practice water burials, hints at a linguistic and ethnic isolate.

[Zanzibar]

True. But they lacked East Eurasian/Siberian ancestry which is pretty unique in Europe as most Euros have literally negligible to zero amounts of it. Which is why I think Saamis are more unique because they have loads of East Eurasian. Also the fact that Saamis have very low EEF compared to most Euros is what makes me think they are more unique than Sardinians as most Euros also have substantial amounts of Neolithic.

I can do that.

[Zanzibar]

Sardinians are the most unique Europeans because they sre isolated to an island. No question about it.

Can you test Tungusic Evenks?

True. But they lacked East Eurasian/Siberian ancestry which is pretty unique in Europe as most Euros have literally negligible to zero amounts of it. Which is why I think Saamis are more unique because they have loads of East Eurasian. Also the fact that Saamis have very low EEF compared to most Euros is what makes me think they are more unique than Sardinians as most Euros also have substantial amounts of Neolithic.

I can do that. Wait awhile as im on my phone.

[Zanzibar]

Sardinians are the most unique Europeans because they sre isolated to an island. No question about it.

Can you test Tungusic Evenks?

True. But they lacked East Eurasian/Siberian ancestry which is pretty unique in Europe as most Euros have literally negligible to zero amounts of it. Which is why I think Saamis are more unique because they have loads of East Eurasian. Also the fact that Saamis have very low EEF compared to most Euros is what makes me think they are more unique than Sardinians as most Euros also have substantial amounts of Neolithic.

I can do that. Wait awhile as im on my phone.

[Komintasavalta]

I haven't seen genetic results of European Nenetses compared to Siberian Nenetses. Some anthropologists considered European Nenetses or Kolvins to represent different types than Siberian Nenetses (http://heritage-institute.ru/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/IntegraciyaZarheologicheskih_i_ehtnograficheskih_i ssledovanij_Tom_1.pdf, translated):


The Nenets across the entire ethnic range from the White sea to Taimyr are characterized, in comparison with the ents and especially with the Nganasans, by a significant weakening of Mongoloid features and a decrease in many head and face sizes, primarily latitudinal; their body length is small – up to 160 cm on average in men. Despite the high level of mongoloidness on the West Siberian scale, the physical type of the Nenets includes very characteristic Ural features, namely, soft hair, reduced pigmentation of hair and eyes, a less flattened face, a high percentage of the concave shape of the back of the nose with an extremely rare convex shape, a relatively wide nose in the wings. This makes it possible to include this complex in the contact Uralic, or West Siberian according to Bagashev, race as one of the most Mongoloid and, obviously, autochthonous variants in the Far North. I suggested calling it the "North Ural" type of the Ural race.

Racial type of the Nenets (which delineates the Northern periphery of the Ural race) is included anthropologists in its composition since the mid-twentieth century: Shluger and Cheboksarov in relation to the European tundra Nenets Small and Big Land as laponoidnye type Ural race, and Debetz and Levin as the Ural type (or race), against primarily the Asian tundra groups, including the Yenisei variant (or type) North of the Nenets of the Yamal Peninsula. S. A. Shluger himself considered the Yenisei variant as part of the South Siberian race.
At present, when significant anthropological differences between the Finno-speaking and Ugro-Samoyed populations have been convincingly proved, it is advisable to support the second concept of the area of the modern Uralic race, limiting it only to the Western one Siberia with the adjacent part of the European (Nenets) Arctic. In essence, the Uralic race currently acts as a buffer Ural-Altaic group of types ("race") – intermediate between large racial trunks in Eurasia (Western - European and East – Asian Mongoloid) and intermediate complexes of complex Genesis in the Altai-Sayans. It is logical to include several well-known complexes (anthropologically peculiar, geographically related, racogenetically mixed by the main mechanism of education, historically related). On a global scale, they represent a single transition array that occupies most of the Western part of Siberia:
1) the Ural type proper (represented by the Khanty and Mansi),
2) Ob-Irtysh type (Selkups, Chulyms, part of the Siberian Tatars, others - among the Khakass-Kyzyl people and in a number of groups of Siberian Tatars),
3) North Ural type (Nenets, except Kolvinsky),
4) Yenisei type (Kets),
5) transitional to the South Siberian type ("race") - the North Altai type according to A. R. Kim, also known as the Ural-Altaic type of A. I. Yarcho (Shors, a part of the Teleut, Northern Altaians, and part of the Khakas). In the classification, it is legitimate to consider the position of this type as the Northern periphery of the area of the South Siberian race as the Altai-Sayan type in the terminology of V. p. Alekseev.

Two Nenetses from the G25 datasheet clustered together with Khanty:

https://i.ibb.co/bWCvwzh/a.png


curl -Ls 'drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1HYrDwxEXv82DvDLoq736pS5ZTGJA4dn5'>modernind
awk -F: 'NR==FNR{a[$0];next}FNR==1||$1 in a' <(printf %s\\n Besermyan Finnish Finnish_East Ingrian Karelian Komi Mari Mordovian Saami Saami_Kola Udmurt Vepsian Nenets Nganassan Selkup Khanty Mansi Estonian Hungarian) modernind>picks
R -e 'library(ggplot2);library(factoextra);library(colo rspace)
t<-read.csv("picks",header=T,row.names=1)
p<-prcomp(t)
k<-hkmeans(p$x,16)
pct<-paste0(colnames(p$x)," (",round(p$sdev/sum(p$sdev)*100,1),"%)")
ggplot(p$x,aes(x=PC1,y=PC2,label=rownames(p$x)))+
theme_dark()+
geom_text(aes(color=as.factor(k$cluster)),size=2,s how.legend=F)+
theme(
plot.background=element_rect(fill="gray35"),
panel.background=element_rect(fill="gray20"),
panel.grid.major=element_line(color="gray35"),
panel.grid.minor=element_blank(),
text=element_text(color="gray10"),
axis.text=element_text(color="gray10"),
axis.ticks.x=element_blank(),
axis.ticks.y=element_blank()
)+
scale_x_continuous(breaks=seq(-1,1,.1),expand=expansion(mult=.17))+
scale_y_continuous(breaks=seq(-1,1,.1),expand=expansion(mult=.05))+
xlab(pct[1])+ylab(pct[2])+
scale_color_discrete_qualitative(palette="Set 3")
ggsave("a.png")'

[Lemminkäinen]

True. But they lacked East Eurasian/Siberian ancestry which is pretty unique in Europe as most Euros have literally negligible to zero amounts of it. Which is why I think Saamis are more unique because they have loads of East Eurasian. Also the fact that Saamis have very low EEF compared to most Euros is what makes me think they are more unique than Sardinians as most Euros also have substantial amounts of Neolithic.

I can do that.

Yeah, but many East European FU populations share same East Eurasisn ancestry with Saamis. Sardinians share common farmer ancestry with Europeans, but in terms of uniquity Sardinians are very special. Btw, TUR_Barcin_N doesn't represent EEF.

[vbnetkhio]

The first group is like 80%+ EEF/Neolithic Farmer while the latter has loads of East Eurasian ancestry approximately 20-27% or more (which is very unique for Europe as most Euros have very little to none ENA/East Eurasian), combine with a lot of HG ancestry and the lowest EEF in Europe (at around 15% on average which is even less than other Uralics) The least Neolithic admixed Saami individual is around 10% EEF while having up to 30%+ Mongoloid ancestry. (but its an ancient sample). While the least EEF admixed modern Saami individual is around 13%. In my opinion, the two groups seem to represent the two modern extreme genetic clines of Europe.

So which of the two group is more unique in your opinion?

Average Sardinian using G25:
Target: Sardinian
Distance: 3.4602% / 0.03460174
82.2 TUR_Barcin_N
13.2 WHG
4.6 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke

Most EEF Sardinian sample:
Target: Sardinian:HGDP01075
Distance: 3.7687% / 0.03768683
84.8 TUR_Barcin_N
10.6 WHG
4.2 RUS_Volga-Kama_N
0.4 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke


Average Saami using G25: Krasnoyarsk_BA is kra001 which is the Siberian ancestry of Uralics (mostly similar to Nganasans and groups like Evenks).
Target: Saami
Distance: 3.2919% / 0.03291854
33.0 Baltic_LVA_MN
23.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
21.4 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke
16.2 TUR_Barcin_N
5.6 RUS_Volga-Kama_N

Most Eastern-shifted modern Saami individual: 27% Mongoloid
Target: Saami:GS000035025
Distance: 3.8466% / 0.03846558
27.8 RUS_Volga-Kama_N
27.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
17.4 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke
14.0 Baltic_LVA_HG
13.4 TUR_Barcin_N

Most East Eurasian-shifted ancient Saami: 32% Mongoloid
Target: FIN_Levanluhta_IA:DA238
Distance: 3.8468% / 0.03846838
32.0 Baltic_LVA_MN
31.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
17.4 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke
10.2 TUR_Barcin_N
7.2 RUS_Volga-Kama_N
1.6 RUS_Old_Bering_Uelen

Sardinians are uniquely pure, and Saami are uniqely mixed.

[Zanzibar]

Sardinians are uniquely pure, and Saami are uniqely mixed.

Pure? But they are not 100% EEF/Anatolian. They still have some WHG and Steppe ancestry. Although yes I understand you as they are around 80%+ Anatolian.

[vbnetkhio]

Pure? But they are not 100% EEF/Anatolian. They still have some WHG and Steppe ancestry.

they are still the Europeans which mixed the least since the neolithic. They acquired the WHG back in the neolithic too.
Only the Steppe and a bit of extra ME came later, but it's a very small amount.

we can go even further, the 26,000 year old paleoltihic sample Dzudzuana was already very similar to the EEF cluster, and if Sardinians still have 80 or 70% Dzudzuana-like dna that's fascinating.

[Zanzibar]

Yeah, but many East European FU populations share same East Eurasisn ancestry with Saamis. Sardinians share common farmer ancestry with Europeans, but in terms of uniquity Sardinians are very special. Btw, TUR_Barcin_N doesn't represent EEF.

True but the thing is a lot of people don't think of many Finno Ugrics like Nenets, Khanty, Mansi, Mari as Euros even though geographically when they are part of Europe.

Can you expand on how Sardinians are very special in terms of uniquity? What represent EEF then?

Here are the Evenks and their neighbors, the Evens. The Yakutia_Ymyyakhtakh seems to represent some type of Central Siberian ancestry. Not certain how different and distinct is it from Krasnoyarsk_BA/kra001 which seems to be the main East Eurasian ancestry of Uralics.

Target: Evenk
Distance: 6.6176% / 0.06617611
63.2 Yukagir_Tundra
16.2 RUS_Yakutia_Ymyiakhtakh_LN
13.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
7.6 MNG_North_N

Target: Even
Distance: 5.4504% / 0.05450432
71.0 Yukagir_Tundra
29.0 RUS_Yakutia_Ymyiakhtakh_LN

Another model of the Nganasan

Target: Nganassan
Distance: 6.4352% / 0.06435186
45.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
39.6 RUS_Yakutia_Ymyiakhtakh_LN
14.6 Yukagir_Tundra
0.2 Baltic_LVA_MN

[vbnetkhio]

Distance: 2.1399% / 0.02139911
21.0 Baltic_EST_BA
19.6 Mari
13.4 Nganassan
13.2 Khanty
12.6 Corded_Ware_DEU
12.2 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
6.4 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
1.2 Scotland_N
0.4 RUS_AfontovaGora3

this is the G25 model for Saami I made in another thread.

to get the distance below 3 I had to add all of these components:
-BA Balts
-extra WHG which isn't from Balts (probably directly from Scandinavian hunter gatherers)
-extra steppe which isn't from Balts (probably arrived with a Finno Ugric population)
-"the Nganassan component" (now we an ancient sample which represents this component, kra001, but it wasn't added yet back then. )
-a component peaking in Mari
-a component peaking in Khanty

i'm sure one of those last 2 is actually WSHG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer#The_Genomic_Formation_of_South_and_Centra l_Asia) which we don't have samples of yet, and the other is something yet undiscovered.

I didn't use Mereke, Krasnoyarsk or Volga Kama, because they are already complex mixes like the Saami.

[Zanzibar]

There's also Kolvin Nenetses, who are komified Nenetses, who speak the Izhma Komi language, who wear Komi clothes, and who sometimes call themselves Komi. They might be less than 50% Siberian, but they might still have lower EEF than Saami. I haven't seen their genetic results.



I'm still not sure if Levänluhta is Saami. Pauli Rahkonen hypothesized that the Levänluhta burials were associated with a people speaking x-language, which is a term for a hypothetical language or languages that used to be spoken in Finland, which according to Rahkonen are possibly related to Meryan (https://journal.fi/susa/article/view/70231/31260):


The water burials in the Levänluhta (the Isokyrö parish) and Käldamäki (the former Vöyri parish) sites in Ostrobothnia have been a great mystery for the scholars because of their unique character. The dating of the burials is 5th–8th centuries AD. Similar burials are not known elsewhere in Finland or in its neighbouring areas. [...]

[Ante Aikio] refers to those unknown languages as _Paleo-Laplandic_ and in the inner parts of Finland _Paleo-Lakelandic_ (Aikio 2004: 64, Fig. 1). Janne Saarikivi (2004) studied obscure substrate words in the Finnish language and called the source language(s) _Paleo-European_. Pauli Rahkonen (2013) treated such hydronyms in the inner parts of Finland that originate from a Uralic language as not being derived from Proto-Finnic or Proto-Saami. He, following Jalo Kalima (1942), calls the language in question _West Uralic x-language_. The onomasticon belonging to this group is located almost exactly in the area of the archaeologically defined Culture of Textile Ceramics (ca 1900-800 BC). These hydronyms are found between the Upper Volga area and Ostrobothnia of Finland (Rahkonen 2013: 181-183, Fig. 24; Häkkinen 2014). [...]

Saami people, or at least the Saami language, began to spread towards Lapland since the Early Iron Age, but supposedly mainly soon after the beginning of the Common Era (Aikio 2006: 44; Saarikivi 2011). However, the names of the large rivers _Kyrönjoki_, _Vöyrinjoki _and _*Ätsävänjoki _in the studied district do not originate from Proto-Saami. In addition, the Saami people never and nowhere else had the habit of water burials. If the word _kyrö_ < _*kür(V)_ is a substrate word from some ancient Uralic language and if _vöyri_ is related to a possible Meryan word _*voγra_ and _*ätsä_ to Komi _adź_ < _*änč_(_V_), a very possible language behind these hydronyms is the above mentioned x-language. Such stems of toponyms as _vuoht-_, _voht-_ < Proto-Uralic _*ukti̮_ 'track over neck of land' and _vieksi-_, _vääksy-_, _viiks-_ 'short river or sound between two larger waters' are inherited from the language in question (Rahkonen 2013: 33-36, maps 24 and 25). The x-language arrived in Finland with the culture of Textile Ceramics (ibid.) and it is probable that its dialects were spoken for a long time alongside with Proto-Saami in the inlands of Finland. Levänluhta and Käldamäki are located on the approximate borderline of the culture of eastern Textile Ceramics.

However, it is also possible that the population who practiced water burials spoke some non-Uralic Paleo-European language. The uniting factor between the stems of the toponyms _*ätsä-_ and _vöyri-_ is that both of them are almost unique, especially if the stems _veur-_ and/or _vour-_ are not connected with _vöyri_. The rareness of these toponyms, together with the unique custom to practice water burials, hints at a linguistic and ethnic isolate.

I'm not certain if the Nenets samples in G25 are Siberian or Kolvin/European Nenets.

I wonder if these Komi samples are actually Komified Nenets...They score a lot higher Siberian than most Komis:


Target: Komi:GRC11049696
Distance: 4.7972% / 0.04797185
29.8 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
27.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
12.2 KAZ_Botai
11.0 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke
10.6 RUS_Volga-Kama_N
9.2 TUR_Barcin_N


Target: Komi:GRC11049697
Distance: 6.2248% / 0.06224839
42.8 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
23.0 KAZ_Botai
14.4 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke
12.4 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
7.4 TUR_Barcin_N


Target: Komi:GRC11052238
Distance: 4.8500% / 0.04850027
76.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
9.0 KAZ_Botai
5.6 RUS_Volga-Kama_N
4.6 TUR_Barcin_N
2.8 RUS_Progress_En
2.0 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke


Target: Komi:GRC11052239
Distance: 5.4168% / 0.05416828
33.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
33.0 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov_o
19.0 KAZ_Botai
9.2 TUR_Barcin_N
5.6 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke

Here are the closest individual pops to these four Komis:

Distance to: Komi:GRC11049696
0.03221016 Mansi:Mansi48
0.03290067 Mansi:Mansi56
0.03337939 Khanty:750_R02C02
0.03589253 Khanty:748_R01C01
0.04067202 Mansi:Mansi91
0.04260760 Khanty:749_R01C01
0.04421348 Khanty:751_R02C01
0.04430613 Khanty:750_R01C01
0.04497921 Khant:GRC11052237
0.04540719 Khant:GRC10045001
0.04561456 Khanty:776_R02C01
0.04625543 Khanty:748_R02C01
0.04741410 Khanty:776_R01C01
0.04832710 Mansi:Mansi43
0.04858508 Khanty:748_R02C02
0.04918519 Ket:GRC11052228
0.04919671 Mansi:Mansi94
0.04928577 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye:STA-366
0.04963210 Khanty:751_R01C02
0.04986868 Khanty:750_R02C01
0.05045678 Khanty:799_R02C01
0.05156859 Ket:GRC11052221
0.05230531 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye:STA-434
0.05347403 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye:STA-357
0.05374762 Khanty:749_R02C02


Distance to: Komi:GRC11049697
0.02621778 Khant:GRC11052234
0.02646444 Komi:GRC11052239
0.02892859 Khant:GRC11049684
0.02935918 Khant:GRC11049679
0.02947370 Khant:GRC11049687
0.03022929 Khant:GRC11049688
0.03091284 Khant:GRC10045001
0.03109757 Khanty:749_R02C01
0.03145602 Khanty:748_R01C02
0.03156957 Khant:GRC11052236
0.03192948 Khanty:749_R02C02
0.03295651 Khant:GRC10045002
0.03327348 Khanty:751_R01C01
0.03329216 Khant:GRC11049683
0.03527028 Khanty:799_R02C01
0.03582399 Khanty:759_R01C01
0.03589086 Khanty:748_R02C02
0.03594378 Khant:GRC11049681
0.03645642 Khanty:750_R02C01
0.03653953 Khanty:751_R02C01
0.03682385 Khanty:761_R02C01
0.03697370 Khanty:776_R01C01
0.03711768 Khant:GRC11052235
0.03738978 Selkup:GRC11049729
0.03827124 Mansi:Mansi76

Distance to: Komi:GRC11052238 (this one is definitely to be a Komified Nenets)
0.03233377 Nenets:nenets13
0.03353409 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049739
0.03481232 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049666
0.03610784 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052201
0.03631362 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049676
0.03704663 Selkup:GRC11056573
0.03707077 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049732
0.03782388 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049737
0.03789761 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052215
0.03815803 Nenets:nenets2
0.03834130 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049741
0.03874563 Nenets:nenets9
0.04104819 Nenets:nenets14
0.04146063 Nenets:nenets5
0.04164148 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049669
0.04215594 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049736
0.04397788 Selkup:Selkup83
0.04442291 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049667
0.04475764 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049664
0.04492343 Selkup:Selkup3a
0.04573156 Selkup:GRC11056549
0.04599664 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052206
0.04606813 Selkup:GRC11056552
0.04626703 Nenets:nenets1
0.04703555 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049735

Distance to: Komi:GRC11052239
0.02593938 Khant:GRC11049681
0.02646444 Komi:GRC11049697
0.02671111 Khant:GRC11052234
0.02784690 Khant:GRC11049683
0.02832101 Khant:GRC11049684
0.02846385 Khanty:749_R02C02
0.02862388 Khanty:750_R01C01
0.02882462 Khant:GRC11049679
0.02889739 Khanty:748_R01C02
0.02892578 Khanty:761_R02C02
0.02960824 Khant:GRC11052236
0.02963351 Khanty:759_R01C01
0.03044744 Khanty:748_R02C02
0.03047708 Khant:GRC11052235
0.03207177 Khanty:799_R02C01
0.03236791 Khanty:749_R02C01
0.03237855 Khant:GRC10045002
0.03343776 Khant:GRC11049687
0.03370088 Khant:GRC10045001
0.03407590 Khant:GRC11049688
0.03425609 Khanty:751_R02C01
0.03445539 Khanty:751_R01C02
0.03457172 Khanty:761_R02C01
0.03458497 Khanty:750_R02C01
0.03481711 Khanty:751_R01C01

[Zanzibar]

Distance: 2.1399% / 0.02139911
21.0 Baltic_EST_BA
19.6 Mari
13.4 Nganassan
13.2 Khanty
12.6 Corded_Ware_DEU
12.2 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
6.4 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
1.2 Scotland_N
0.4 RUS_AfontovaGora3

this is the G25 model for Saami I made in another thread.

to get the distance below 3 I had to add all of these components:
-BA Balts
-extra WHG which isn't from Balts (probably directly from Scandinavian hunter gatherers)
-extra steppe which isn't from Balts (probably arrived with a Finno Ugric population)
-"the Nganassan component" (now we an ancient sample which represents this component, kra001, but it wasn't added yet back then. )
-a component peaking in Mari
-a component peaking in Khanty

i'm sure one of those last 2 is actually WSHG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer#The_Genomic_Formation_of_South_and_Centra l_Asia) which we don't have samples of yet, and the other is something yet undiscovered.

I didn't use Mereke, Krasnoyarsk or Volga Kama, because they are already complex mixes like the Saami.

What is the population that you use as a proxy for the extra Steppe?

I believe that Krasnoyarsk_BA is the same sample as kra001:

RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA:kra001,0.034147,-0.421445,0.150471,-0.002907,-0.14495,-0.082273,0.019741,0.035998,0.02577,0.000364,0.0837 92,-3e-04,0.015758,-0.048994,-0.04343,-0.029833,0.000652,0.005574,0.004902,-0.012381,0.026453,0.003462,0.001725,0.00723,0.0128 13

Actually the WSHG samples have already be added: they are KAZ_Botai, RUS_Sosonivoy_HG, RUS_Tyumen_HG if I remembered correctly.

What is Volga Kama's genetic composition? Mereke is like other Yamnaya pop but very little EEF compared to others and possibly minor Iran_N as well?

[Lemminkäinen]

Joqool


Can you expand on how Sardinians are very special in terms of uniquity? What represent EEF then?

EEF is somewhat inaccurate definition. Early Neolithic would be better binding samples to the Neolithic era and to the time of first farmers moved from Anatolia.

I prefer Evenks in using Siberian references. Eastern Nenets are excellent Siberians, but unfortunately the westward migration brought their genes near Saamis and, as Komintasavalta proved, they brought admixtures to the East Europe. Some of them have European admixture and some European have Nenets admixture, especially European FU people. Many genetic tests notice the difference between even purest Siberian admixtures and the result among those Europeans depends on this specific Siberian sign. Thus it is better to use neutral Siberian reference. Someone can say that Evenks have East Asian admixture, but it is still better than use East Asians. Take into account that these results using Vahaduo and other similar methods are summaries and don't reveal the genetic data behind. In principle two pure Siberian references can give you different results due to a known or unknown genetic flow in either direction regardless of are you using PCA or Admixture.

[Zanzibar]

There's also Kolvin Nenetses, who are komified Nenetses, who speak the Izhma Komi language, who wear Komi clothes, and who sometimes call themselves Komi. They might be less than 50% Siberian, but they might still have lower EEF than Saami. I haven't seen their genetic results.



I'm still not sure if Levänluhta is Saami. Pauli Rahkonen hypothesized that the Levänluhta burials were associated with a people speaking x-language, which is a term for a hypothetical language or languages that used to be spoken in Finland, which according to Rahkonen are possibly related to Meryan (https://journal.fi/susa/article/view/70231/31260):


The water burials in the Levänluhta (the Isokyrö parish) and Käldamäki (the former Vöyri parish) sites in Ostrobothnia have been a great mystery for the scholars because of their unique character. The dating of the burials is 5th–8th centuries AD. Similar burials are not known elsewhere in Finland or in its neighbouring areas. [...]

[Ante Aikio] refers to those unknown languages as _Paleo-Laplandic_ and in the inner parts of Finland _Paleo-Lakelandic_ (Aikio 2004: 64, Fig. 1). Janne Saarikivi (2004) studied obscure substrate words in the Finnish language and called the source language(s) _Paleo-European_. Pauli Rahkonen (2013) treated such hydronyms in the inner parts of Finland that originate from a Uralic language as not being derived from Proto-Finnic or Proto-Saami. He, following Jalo Kalima (1942), calls the language in question _West Uralic x-language_. The onomasticon belonging to this group is located almost exactly in the area of the archaeologically defined Culture of Textile Ceramics (ca 1900-800 BC). These hydronyms are found between the Upper Volga area and Ostrobothnia of Finland (Rahkonen 2013: 181-183, Fig. 24; Häkkinen 2014). [...]

Saami people, or at least the Saami language, began to spread towards Lapland since the Early Iron Age, but supposedly mainly soon after the beginning of the Common Era (Aikio 2006: 44; Saarikivi 2011). However, the names of the large rivers _Kyrönjoki_, _Vöyrinjoki _and _*Ätsävänjoki _in the studied district do not originate from Proto-Saami. In addition, the Saami people never and nowhere else had the habit of water burials. If the word _kyrö_ < _*kür(V)_ is a substrate word from some ancient Uralic language and if _vöyri_ is related to a possible Meryan word _*voγra_ and _*ätsä_ to Komi _adź_ < _*änč_(_V_), a very possible language behind these hydronyms is the above mentioned x-language. Such stems of toponyms as _vuoht-_, _voht-_ < Proto-Uralic _*ukti̮_ 'track over neck of land' and _vieksi-_, _vääksy-_, _viiks-_ 'short river or sound between two larger waters' are inherited from the language in question (Rahkonen 2013: 33-36, maps 24 and 25). The x-language arrived in Finland with the culture of Textile Ceramics (ibid.) and it is probable that its dialects were spoken for a long time alongside with Proto-Saami in the inlands of Finland. Levänluhta and Käldamäki are located on the approximate borderline of the culture of eastern Textile Ceramics.

However, it is also possible that the population who practiced water burials spoke some non-Uralic Paleo-European language. The uniting factor between the stems of the toponyms _*ätsä-_ and _vöyri-_ is that both of them are almost unique, especially if the stems _veur-_ and/or _vour-_ are not connected with _vöyri_. The rareness of these toponyms, together with the unique custom to practice water burials, hints at a linguistic and ethnic isolate.

Well, Levanluhta might not be Saami but they still seem the closest to modern Saamis followed by Komi, Khanty and Udmurt:

Closest modern pops to the Levanluhta samples:

Distance to: FIN_Levanluhta_IA:DA238: (this is the sample that I thought was the ancient Saami in the OP).
0.04508062 Saami:saami11
0.05182720 Saami:saami2
0.05278815 Saami:GS000035025
0.05743347 Komi:GRC11049689
0.05930293 Saami:saami14
0.06018876 Khant:GRC11052233
0.06039317 Komi:GRC11049690
0.06246075 Khanty:776_R02C02
0.06276454 Saami:saami1
0.06333083 Saami:saami7
0.06406049 Saami:saami8
0.06689265 Khanty:799_R01C02
0.06733675 Saami:saami3
0.06825300 Komi:GRC11049691
0.06947334 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049743
0.06964066 Saami:saami13
0.07129717 Saami:saami9
0.07410045 Saami:saami12
0.07530561 Khant:GRC11049685
0.07568132 Saami:saami5
0.07585497 Saami:GS000035026
0.07785197 Selkup:Selkup105
0.07808575 Udmurt:udmurd15
0.08070767 Udmurt:udmurd8
0.08149774 Ket:570_R02C02

Distance to: FIN_Levanluhta_IA:DA234
0.02689808 Saami:Saami001
0.03231395 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola40
0.03473499 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola6
0.03691714 Saami:saami4
0.03722969 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola25
0.03791237 Saami:GS000035026
0.03853382 Udmurt:169_R01C01
0.03854017 Saami:saami1
0.03866587 Saami:saami12
0.03975190 Saami:saami6
0.03994188 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola5
0.04082840 Udmurt:153_R01C01
0.04256969 Udmurt:udmurd9
0.04423619 Saami:saami3
0.04448489 Komi:GRC11049700
0.04454432 Udmurt:520_R02C02
0.04475194 Udmurt:udmurd4
0.04483025 Saami:saami13
0.04487201 Saami:saami9
0.04508202 Saami:saami5
0.04556724 Saami:saami14
0.04657822 Saami:saami8
0.04743138 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola74
0.04770975 Komi:GRC11049694
0.04881046 Komi:653_R02C01


Distance to: FIN_Levanluhta_IA:JK1968
0.03241975 Saami:Saami001
0.03428463 Saami:saami1
0.03814047 Saami:saami12
0.03899207 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola6
0.04050043 Saami:saami14
0.04074235 Saami:GS000035026
0.04170564 Udmurt:169_R01C01
0.04186193 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola40
0.04223004 Saami:saami5
0.04247379 Saami:saami4
0.04259981 Saami:saami9
0.04266465 Saami:saami13
0.04369169 Saami:saami8
0.04371569 Saami:saami6
0.04372377 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola25
0.04495145 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola5
0.04579187 Saami:saami3
0.04847810 Saami:saami7
0.04852577 Udmurt:153_R01C01
0.04925491 Udmurt:udmurd9
0.05047055 Udmurt:udmurd4
0.05066551 Saami:GS000035025
0.05177010 Besermyan:UDM-309
0.05209033 Saami:saami11
0.05306425 Udmurt:519_R01C02


Distance to: FIN_Levanluhta_IA:JK1970
0.02881226 Saami:saami11
0.03353434 Saami:saami14
0.03614455 Saami:saami13
0.03674681 Saami:saami3
0.03910655 Saami:saami1
0.04073926 Saami:saami7
0.04085389 Saami:GS000035025
0.04227257 Saami:saami8
0.04333922 Saami:saami9
0.04428230 Khant:GRC11052233
0.04521125 Saami:saami12
0.04571997 Saami:GS000035026
0.04638868 Saami:saami2
0.04733918 Saami:saami6
0.04994391 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049743
0.05052503 Komi:GRC11049690
0.05108331 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola40
0.05110541 Komi:GRC11049691
0.05185738 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola6
0.05319028 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola25
0.05410062 Udmurt:169_R02C01
0.05489327 Udmurt:153_R02C02
0.05528998 Khant:GRC11049685
0.05542480 Saami:saami5
0.05571813 Komi:GRC11049689

Distance to: FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o:JK2065
0.04035390 Icelandic:NA15766
0.04080950 Icelandic:NA15755
0.04091818 Irish:512
0.04143486 Icelandic:NA15765
0.04287724 Irish:Irish54
0.04297770 Orcadian:HGDP00804
0.04367141 Danish:449
0.04427160 Norwegian:NOR152
0.04456782 Dutch:Netherlands47
0.04513553 Swedish:Sweden7
0.04531036 Icelandic:NA15761
0.04542677 Swedish:Sweden16
0.04567042 Irish:555
0.04567307 Swedish:Sweden10
0.04596462 Welsh:WAL004
0.04645358 Danish:475
0.04710425 Swedish:Sweden9
0.04736865 Irish:Irish40
0.04751081 Irish:509
0.04754268 Danish:Denmark3
0.04756187 English_Cornwall:HG00264
0.04779583 Danish:436
0.04785798 English_Cornwall:HG00160
0.04800825 Scottish:Scottish3
0.04812596 Danish:435

The last Levanluhta individual seems to be an ancient Germanic as he/she is closest to Icelandic, Irish, Orcadian and Danish.

These two ancient Chalmny-Varre individuals also seems to be ancient Saami:

Distance to: RUS_Chalmny-Varre:CHV001
0.02484510 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola6
0.02703074 Saami:Saami001
0.02904096 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola40
0.02997459 Saami:saami12
0.03002496 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola25
0.03058260 Saami:GS000035026
0.03501773 Saami:saami4
0.03537977 Saami:saami6
0.03575583 Saami:saami9
0.03715521 Saami:saami13
0.03731501 Saami:saami1
0.03858893 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola5
0.03914439 Saami:saami14
0.03975808 Saami:saami8
0.03999221 Saami:saami3
0.04310754 Saami:saami7
0.04498098 Saami:saami5
0.04733158 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola74
0.05006781 Saami:GS000035025
0.05022092 Udmurt:169_R01C01
0.05052716 Saami:saami2
0.05085174 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049743
0.05344787 Udmurt:153_R01C01
0.05356493 Udmurt:udmurd4
0.05399448 Komi:GRC11049694

Distance to: RUS_Chalmny-Varre:CHV002
0.02681157 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola40
0.02794263 Saami:saami12
0.02843403 Saami:saami3
0.02866676 Saami:saami6
0.03182406 Saami:saami4
0.03207421 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola25
0.03265119 Saami:saami13
0.03453672 Saami:GS000035026
0.03530497 Saami:saami14
0.03584235 Saami:saami9
0.03725891 Saami:saami8
0.03840586 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola6
0.03999652 Saami:Saami001
0.04069956 Saami:saami7
0.04147239 Saami:saami1
0.04774796 Saami:saami11
0.04905822 Udmurt:153_R01C01
0.04913636 Udmurt:169_R01C01
0.05122758 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049743
0.05315488 Saami:GS000035025
0.05355331 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola74
0.05540410 Udmurt:519_R01C02
0.05678763 Udmurt:udmurd4
0.05692639 Komi:GRC11049694
0.05696630 Saami:saami5

And also this ancient Viking Age individual from Norway also seems to be either Komi, Khanty or Sami:

Distance to: VK2020_NOR_North_VA_o1:VK518
0.04318980 Komi:GRC11049689
0.04532668 Saami:saami11
0.04683445 Khanty:776_R02C02
0.04697796 Saami:saami2
0.04727331 Saami:GS000035025
0.04972822 Khanty:799_R01C02
0.05173866 Komi:GRC11049690
0.05194682 Khant:GRC11052233
0.05910518 Komi:GRC11049691
0.05952524 Saami:saami1
0.06180232 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049743
0.06260831 Saami:saami14
0.06286144 Udmurt:udmurd8
0.06297209 Udmurt:udmurd15
0.06355251 Selkup:Selkup105
0.06365439 Khant:GRC11049685
0.06422221 Saami:saami7
0.06587566 Saami:saami8
0.06706609 Saami:saami13
0.06765595 Saami:saami5
0.06768575 Udmurt:169_R02C01
0.06849721 Udmurt:udmurd1
0.06879562 Udmurt:152_R02C01
0.06905779 Udmurt:udmurd14
0.06967192 Ket:570_R02C02

Another ancient Viking Age sample from Norway: seems to be an ancient Komi

Distance to: VK2020_NOR_North_VA_o2:VK519
0.02814134 Komi:653_R01C02
0.03363347 Komi:652_R01C02
0.03501508 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola7
0.03519029 Komi:652_R01C01
0.03558195 Komi:GRC11049694
0.03721548 Komi:GRC11049699
0.03743950 Komi:GRC11049698
0.03746317 Komi:652_R02C02
0.03768465 Komi:636_R02C02
0.03795438 Udmurt:Udmurt1
0.03796145 Komi:GRC11049700
0.03824582 Komi:653_R02C02
0.03881442 Komi:GRC11049692
0.04025432 Komi:653_R01C01
0.04036216 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola74
0.04386596 Saami_Kola:SaamiKola49
0.04623116 Komi:GRC11049693
0.04630743 Komi:GRC10045017
0.04958714 Tatar_Kazan:TTR-097
0.05098222 Komi:654_R01C01
0.05140864 Russian_Pinega:RusPinega9
0.05155019 Udmurt:udmurd4
0.05251937 Tatar_Mishar:TTR-460
0.05292540 Udmurt:153_R01C01
0.05300804 Karelian:Karelia15

[vbnetkhio]

What is the population that you use as a proxy for the extra Steppe?
for Europeans I include Corded_Ware_Baltic_early because most of the steppe in Europe seems to come from something like that, and Corded_Ware_DEU because it decreases the distance for western Europeans.



I believe that Krasnoyarsk_BA is the same sample as kra001:

RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA:kra001,0.034147,-0.421445,0.150471,-0.002907,-0.14495,-0.082273,0.019741,0.035998,0.02577,0.000364,0.0837 92,-3e-04,0.015758,-0.048994,-0.04343,-0.029833,0.000652,0.005574,0.004902,-0.012381,0.026453,0.003462,0.001725,0.00723,0.0128 13
lol, I just read about kra001 on the blog and didn't check the spreadsheet since then. I assumed Krasnoyarsk was one of those heavily mixed pops like Okunevo or something.



Actually the WSHG samples have already be added: they are KAZ_Botai, RUS_Sosonivoy_HG, RUS_Tyumen_HG if I remembered correctly.
I thought those were just ANE? did Davidski do a text on them?



What is Volga Kama's genetic composition? Mereke is like other Yamnaya pop but very little EEF compared to others and possibly minor Iran_N as well?
idk, i'll try to model them. did you choose them, or the algorithm picked them from the full sheet?

[Komintasavalta]

I'm not certain if the Nenets samples in G25 are Siberian or Kolvin/European Nenets.

I wonder if these Komi samples are actually Komified Nenets...They score a lot higher Siberian than most Komis:

I think they're Siberian Komi. By googling "GRC11049696", I found a data for a paper titled "The genetic basis of adaptation to climatic stress in Siberian indigenous populations": https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/geo/query/acc.cgi?acc=GSE73996. The sample IDs of all four Komis are included in the "GSE73996_SIBERIA.fam.gz" file:


$ gzip -dc GSE73996_SIBERIA.fam.gz|egrep GRC11049696\|GRC11049697\|GRC11052238\|GRC11052239
681 GRC11049696 0 0 1 -9
682 GRC11049697 0 0 1 -9
1107 GRC11052238 0 0 1 -9
1108 GRC11052239 0 0 1 -9

Some of the Siberian Komi reindeer herders look very Mongoloid (https://www.arcticphoto.com/gallery1/arcticp/komi/komi.htm):

https://i.ibb.co/Px1BGL2/RY-2703-19m.jpg
"RY.2703-19: Two Komi sisters, Ksusha (left) and Albina Valeeva, wearing traditional reindeer skin clothing. Priuralsky District of the Yamal. NW Siberia, Russia"

https://i.ibb.co/pL16GM2/RY-2702-10m.jpg
"RY.2702-10: Marina Valeeva, a young Komi woman, holds her six month old baby daughter, Tonya, inside her family's tent at a winter camp in the forest. Priuralsky District, Yamal, NW Siberia."

https://i.ibb.co/PtCNhLH/RY-2701-05m.jpg
"RY.2701-05: Albina Valeeva, a young Komi girl (left),playing outside with her brother, Matvey, at their family's winter camp in the forest. Priuralsky District, Yamal, NW Siberia."

[Zanzibar]

I haven't seen genetic results of European Nenetses compared to Siberian Nenetses. Some anthropologists considered European Nenetses or Kolvins to represent different types than Siberian Nenetses (http://heritage-institute.ru/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/IntegraciyaZarheologicheskih_i_ehtnograficheskih_i ssledovanij_Tom_1.pdf, translated):


The Nenets across the entire ethnic range from the White sea to Taimyr are characterized, in comparison with the ents and especially with the Nganasans, by a significant weakening of Mongoloid features and a decrease in many head and face sizes, primarily latitudinal; their body length is small – up to 160 cm on average in men. Despite the high level of mongoloidness on the West Siberian scale, the physical type of the Nenets includes very characteristic Ural features, namely, soft hair, reduced pigmentation of hair and eyes, a less flattened face, a high percentage of the concave shape of the back of the nose with an extremely rare convex shape, a relatively wide nose in the wings. This makes it possible to include this complex in the contact Uralic, or West Siberian according to Bagashev, race as one of the most Mongoloid and, obviously, autochthonous variants in the Far North. I suggested calling it the "North Ural" type of the Ural race.

Racial type of the Nenets (which delineates the Northern periphery of the Ural race) is included anthropologists in its composition since the mid-twentieth century: Shluger and Cheboksarov in relation to the European tundra Nenets Small and Big Land as laponoidnye type Ural race, and Debetz and Levin as the Ural type (or race), against primarily the Asian tundra groups, including the Yenisei variant (or type) North of the Nenets of the Yamal Peninsula. S. A. Shluger himself considered the Yenisei variant as part of the South Siberian race.
At present, when significant anthropological differences between the Finno-speaking and Ugro-Samoyed populations have been convincingly proved, it is advisable to support the second concept of the area of the modern Uralic race, limiting it only to the Western one Siberia with the adjacent part of the European (Nenets) Arctic. In essence, the Uralic race currently acts as a buffer Ural-Altaic group of types ("race") – intermediate between large racial trunks in Eurasia (Western - European and East – Asian Mongoloid) and intermediate complexes of complex Genesis in the Altai-Sayans. It is logical to include several well-known complexes (anthropologically peculiar, geographically related, racogenetically mixed by the main mechanism of education, historically related). On a global scale, they represent a single transition array that occupies most of the Western part of Siberia:
1) the Ural type proper (represented by the Khanty and Mansi),
2) Ob-Irtysh type (Selkups, Chulyms, part of the Siberian Tatars, others - among the Khakass-Kyzyl people and in a number of groups of Siberian Tatars),
3) North Ural type (Nenets, except Kolvinsky),
4) Yenisei type (Kets),
5) transitional to the South Siberian type ("race") - the North Altai type according to A. R. Kim, also known as the Ural-Altaic type of A. I. Yarcho (Shors, a part of the Teleut, Northern Altaians, and part of the Khakas). In the classification, it is legitimate to consider the position of this type as the Northern periphery of the area of the South Siberian race as the Altai-Sayan type in the terminology of V. p. Alekseev.

Two Nenetses from the G25 datasheet clustered together with Khanty:

https://i.ibb.co/bWCvwzh/a.png


curl -Ls 'drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1HYrDwxEXv82DvDLoq736pS5ZTGJA4dn5'>modernind
awk -F: 'NR==FNR{a[$0];next}FNR==1||$1 in a' <(printf %s\\n Besermyan Finnish Finnish_East Ingrian Karelian Komi Mari Mordovian Saami Saami_Kola Udmurt Vepsian Nenets Nganassan Selkup Khanty Mansi Estonian Hungarian) modernind>picks
R -e 'library(ggplot2);library(factoextra);library(colo rspace)
t<-read.csv("picks",header=T,row.names=1)
p<-prcomp(t)
k<-hkmeans(p$x,16)
pct<-paste0(colnames(p$x)," (",round(p$sdev/sum(p$sdev)*100,1),"%)")
ggplot(p$x,aes(x=PC1,y=PC2,label=rownames(p$x)))+
theme_dark()+
geom_text(aes(color=as.factor(k$cluster)),size=2,s how.legend=F)+
theme(
plot.background=element_rect(fill="gray35"),
panel.background=element_rect(fill="gray20"),
panel.grid.major=element_line(color="gray35"),
panel.grid.minor=element_blank(),
text=element_text(color="gray10"),
axis.text=element_text(color="gray10"),
axis.ticks.x=element_blank(),
axis.ticks.y=element_blank()
)+
scale_x_continuous(breaks=seq(-1,1,.1),expand=expansion(mult=.17))+
scale_y_continuous(breaks=seq(-1,1,.1),expand=expansion(mult=.05))+
xlab(pct[1])+ylab(pct[2])+
scale_color_discrete_qualitative(palette="Set 3")
ggsave("a.png")'

Just found that there are recently included Forest_Nentsi and Tundra_Nentsi samples in G25 modern individual spreadsheet. They haven't been average yet, so I decided to do them. Here are the averages of the two new sets of Nenets samples:

Forest_Nentsi,0.067358893,-0.288337893,0.131682429,0.03657975,-0.1223635,-0.056027214,0.017541964,0.025770893,0.01321375,-0.014442179,0.078851179,0.001760929,0.011961857,-0.066845357,-0.022844643,-0.012894357,-0.004316571,0.006406786,0.010437357,-0.0099065,0.007170393,0.02140075,0.036366893,-0.007160857,-0.004896821

Tundra_Nentsi,0.069782231,-0.273255462,0.127408769,0.034064077,-0.116045308,-0.050779615,0.017155769,0.025703077,0.012586154,-0.013401462,0.069527231,0.001902077,0.010554923,-0.054773769,-0.018228231,-0.009842231,1E-05,0.005145308,0.006072154,-0.007859538,0.008648231,0.016293692,0.027787692,-0.002224615,-0.001381692

Here is how the average Forest_Nentsi score:

Target: Forest_Nentsi
Distance: 5.1424% / 0.05142374
68.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
22.8 KAZ_Botai
5.8 TUR_Barcin_N
2.0 Baltic_LVA_MN
1.0 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke

Here is the average Tundra_Nentsi

Target: Tundra_Nentsi
Distance: 3.7619% / 0.03761905
67.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
15.6 KAZ_Botai
6.8 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke
6.2 TUR_Barcin_N
3.4 Baltic_LVA_MN
0.8 RUS_Progress_En

Compare to the average Nenets:

Target: Nenets
Distance: 4.1899% / 0.04189894
66.0 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
15.2 KAZ_Botai
6.2 TUR_Barcin_N
5.8 Baltic_LVA_MN
3.6 RUS_Progress_En
3.2 Yamnaya_KAZ_Mereke

The three averages seem almost identical, except that the Forest_Nenets have higher Western Siberian Hunter Gatherer ancestry (represented by Botai from Kazakhstan) compared to the other two Nenets populations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_North_Eurasian



West Siberian Hunter-Gatherer (WSG) are a specific archaeogenetic lineage, first reported in a genetic study published in Science in September 2019. WSGs were found to be of about 30% EHG ancestry, 50% ANE ancestry, and 20% East Asian ancestry.[19]


I'm not sure whether Forest_Nentsi is European or Tundra_Nentsi is Siberian though.. Also don't know which group is the Nenets samples in G25 but probably Tundra_Nentsi as they score very similar.

Closest individual pops to the Nenets, Forest_Nentsi and Tundra_Nentsi average:

Distance to: Nenets
0.02017607 Nenets:nenets11
0.02702649 Nenets:nenets1
0.02807337 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052199
0.02946784 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049675
0.02997094 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049664
0.03017925 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049735
0.03047640 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052209
0.03057408 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049668
0.03090872 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049733
0.03116680 Nenets:nenets5
0.03185948 Nenets:nenets9
0.03214378 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049738
0.03218449 Nenets:nenets4
0.03254554 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052202
0.03303185 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052206
0.03350641 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049740
0.03407521 Selkup:selkup2
0.03438560 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049731
0.03454281 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052213
0.03501028 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049663
0.03531638 Selkup:Selkup82
0.03634014 Selkup:GRC11056548
0.03649884 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052214
0.03664205 Selkup:Selkup15a
0.03738869 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049662

Distance to: Forest_Nentsi
0.01637090 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049735
0.01748825 Nenets:nenets9
0.01882758 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052214
0.01947087 Nenets:nenets14
0.02052541 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052215
0.02054525 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052206
0.02058620 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049664
0.02073195 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052202
0.02079824 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052209
0.02090835 Nenets:nenets5
0.02159324 Nenets:nenets2
0.02187740 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052208
0.02225799 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049675
0.02227567 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049666
0.02327693 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049731
0.02347195 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049740
0.02358943 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049733
0.02394968 Nenets:nenets13
0.02399497 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052213
0.02407102 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049676
0.02444728 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049672
0.02457463 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049671
0.02486970 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049667
0.02510380 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049663
0.02513374 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052204


Distance to: Tundra_Nenets
0.02187586 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049664
0.02432495 Nenets:nenets11
0.02590826 Nenets:nenets1
0.02663515 Nenets:nenets9
0.02687009 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049738
0.02823681 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049740
0.02900872 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052209
0.02911875 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049675
0.02918888 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049668
0.02924096 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049735
0.02948267 Nenets:nenets5
0.03086267 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049663
0.03189460 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052206
0.03202828 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052214
0.03222991 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049733
0.03284615 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049731
0.03286802 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052199
0.03289001 Nenets:nenets14
0.03330759 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052213
0.03430137 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052202
0.03527001 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11052207
0.03630616 Tundra_Nentsi:GRC11049737
0.03666012 Selkup:selkup2
0.03670530 Forest_Nentsi:GRC11049662
0.03680718 Nenets:nenets13

[vbnetkhio]

What is the population that you use as a proxy for the extra Steppe?

I believe that Krasnoyarsk_BA is the same sample as kra001:

RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA:kra001,0.034147,-0.421445,0.150471,-0.002907,-0.14495,-0.082273,0.019741,0.035998,0.02577,0.000364,0.0837 92,-3e-04,0.015758,-0.048994,-0.04343,-0.029833,0.000652,0.005574,0.004902,-0.012381,0.026453,0.003462,0.001725,0.00723,0.0128 13

Actually the WSHG samples have already be added: they are KAZ_Botai, RUS_Sosonivoy_HG, RUS_Tyumen_HG if I remembered correctly.

What is Volga Kama's genetic composition? Mereke is like other Yamnaya pop but very little EEF compared to others and possibly minor Iran_N as well?

Volga Kama looks like pure EHG pretty much, maybe with a slight CHG shift. I prefer using Afontova Gora and Grotta Constinenza Meso for a pure ANE and WHG.
And Mereke just looks like a normal Yamnaya.

[Leto]

Is that Nenets data available for Gedmatch? I'd like to have it for Dodecad Vahaduo.

[vbnetkhio]

https://i.ibb.co/bWCvwzh/a.png



this PCA shows the Khanty and Mari components which I talked about.

[Zanzibar]

Is that Nenets data available for Gedmatch? I'd like to have it for Dodecad Vahaduo.

Not sure. I have seen some Nenets samples before on Gedmatch but it was a long time ago (like almost 2-3 years ago). Nonetheless, I can't remember the email address of the user that uploaded them. Don't know if the samples are still there.

[Leto]

Not sure. I have seen some Nenets samples before on Gedmatch but it was a long time ago (like almost 2-3 years ago). Nonetheless, I can't remember the email address of the user that uploaded them. Don't know if the samples are still there.
Yes, I had those 2-3 samples but for an average we'd need more.
Anyway, I'm kinda tired of begging certain people for data, two guys in particular. They treat it as some kind of precious information available only to the chosen few.

[Zanzibar]

Joqool



EEF is somewhat inaccurate definition. Early Neolithic would be better binding samples to the Neolithic era and to the time of first farmers moved from Anatolia.

I prefer Evenks in using Siberian references. Eastern Nenets are excellent Siberians, but unfortunately the westward migration brought their genes near Saamis and, as Komintasavalta proved, they brought admixtures to the East Europe. Some of them have European admixture and some European have Nenets admixture, especially European FU people. Many genetic tests notice the difference between even purest Siberian admixtures and the result among those Europeans depends on this specific Siberian sign. Thus it is better to use neutral Siberian reference. Someone can say that Evenks have East Asian admixture, but it is still better than use East Asians. Take into account that these results using Vahaduo and other similar methods are summaries and don't reveal the genetic data behind. In principle two pure Siberian references can give you different results due to a known or unknown genetic flow in either direction regardless of are you using PCA or Admixture.

Intriguing. Thank you for explaining.

Are Evenks an even more suitable Siberian reference than even Nganasan or kra001/Krasnoyarsk_BA?

Btw I decide to run this for fun: to see whether Europeans in general are closer to Sardinian or Saami. And the results are a bit mind-blowing. I decided to add Mari as well as I want to see whether Euros would farther away from them than from the Saami:

Distance to: English
0.15276131 Sardinian
0.19782542 Saami
0.24241418 Mari

Distance to: Irish
0.16018707 Sardinian
0.19534091 Saami
0.24118352 Mari

Distance to: Dutch
0.15799445 Sardinian
0.19087737 Saami
0.23635703 Mari

Distance to: German
0.14745092 Sardinian
0.19719818 Saami
0.24026907 Mari

Distance to: Swedish
0.17189064 Sardinian
0.18279075 Saami
0.23172467 Mari

Distance to: Icelandic
0.16936372 Sardinian
0.19039592 Saami
0.23796045 Mari

Distance to: French_Nord
0.12843205 Sardinian
0.20682974 Saami
0.24698158 Mari

Distance to: Spanish_Aragon
0.08706676 Sardinian
0.23259576 Saami
0.26748702 Mari

Distance to: Italian_Piedmont
0.09271959 Sardinian
0.23687648 Saami
0.26465765 Mari

Distance to: Greek_Thessaly
0.10353165 Sardinian
0.23847295 Saami
0.26448795 Mari

Distance to: Bulgarian
0.12263176 Sardinian
0.21418889 Saami
0.24468364 Mari

Distance to: Romanian
0.12430481 Sardinian
0.20953171 Saami
0.24252065 Mari

Distance to: Hungarian
0.15167891 Sardinian
0.18949914 Saami
0.23081106 Mari

Distance to: Czech
0.16388889 Sardinian
0.18862550 Saami
0.23404842 Mari

Distance to: Polish
0.18101803 Sardinian
0.18381285 Saami
0.22981453 Mari

It seems that when you get to NE Europe, locals begin to genetically shift closer to Saami than to Sardinians: probably due to lower Neolithic and higher WHG

Distance to: Latvian
0.17931411 Saami
0.22550326 Sardinian
0.23128921 Mari

Distance to: Estonian
0.16632238 Saami
0.21481596 Sardinian
0.21763448 Mari

Distance to: Finnish
0.13826217 Saami
0.19255765 Mari
0.21175799 Sardinian

Distance to: Karelian
0.12213113 Saami
0.17761686 Mari
0.22567617 Sardinian

Distance to: Russian_Tver
0.16075159 Saami
0.20459541 Sardinian
0.21081083 Mari

Distance to: Russian_Pinega
0.10963287 Saami
0.16281645 Mari
0.23264898 Sardinian

Distance to: Russian_Kursk
0.16900683 Saami
0.19637821 Sardinian
0.21549021 Mari

Distance to: Belarusian
0.17926072 Saami
0.19834510 Sardinian
0.22654627 Mari

Distance to: Ukrainian
0.17927329 Saami
0.18478019 Sardinian
0.22486058 Mari

Distance to: Ukrainian_B
0.17539759 Sardinian
0.17884364 Saami
0.22160807 Mari

The distance run above exhibits the two extreme genetic clines in modern Europe pretty well: Sardinian vs Saami.

Seems like most Europeans are genetically closer to Sardinians than to Saamis except Finland, the Baltics and Russia/Belarus. Plausibly due to the heavy Neolithicization which pulls most Euros closer to the former. Also its remarkable how genetically distant the Mari are to almost everyone else in Europe except those heavily East Eurasian admixed which show how distinct Uralics are genetically.

[Zanzibar]

Yes, I had those 2-3 samples but for an average we'd need more.
Anyway, I'm kinda tired of begging certain people for data, two guys in particular. They treat it as some kind of precious information available only to the chosen few.

I don't know the papers or dataset that David acquired to upload those new Nenets samples. But if we can find it, maybe we can ask Peterski or Lucas to upload them to Gedmatch.

[Komintasavalta]

this PCA shows the Khanty and Mari components which I talked about.

Yeah. Here I added Chuvashes. There's a Mari-Chuvash component at PC4. At PC3, there's a cline with Hungarians at one end and Saami and Finnics at the other end. (This is not based on the original G25 coordinates but on a new PCA done on top of them.)

https://i.ibb.co/g425YdR/1.png


Btw I decide to run this for fun: to see whether Europeans in general are closer to Sardinian or Saami.

Here's it visualized. This is still based on G25 because I'm a scrub, but I'm learning. Sardinians are the furthest from Saami, but Bashkirs are the furthest from Sardinians. The colors are based on hkmeans clustering of all 25 components in G25 (so it's not just based on the values of the x and y axis shown here).

https://i.ibb.co/SRZpmj9/2.png

[Lemminkäinen]

Here is an example f3-test about the impact of the gene flows. Both populations have Siberian admixture, but in Finns the Evenk influence is bigger and in Saamis the Nganasan influence is bigger. If we suggest that Siberians are a homogeneous population giving approximately similar admixture rates, then we have to conclude that Nganasans have Saami admixture. In both test I had near million SNPs.

https://i.ibb.co/g4Ns7fm/sib1.png

[Leto]

Who are the two guys? I don't know the papers or dataset that David acquired to upload those new Nenets samples. But if we can find it, maybe we can ask Peterski or Lucas to upload them to Gedmatch.
You just did the name dropping ;)

[Zanzibar]

Volga Kama looks like pure EHG pretty much, maybe with a slight CHG shift. I prefer using Afontova Gora and Grotta Constinenza Meso for a pure ANE and WHG.
And Mereke just looks like a normal Yamnaya.

Have you heard of this sample: VK_NOR_LN_HG? It seems to be either EHG or SHG with very minor CHG. For some reason it improve the distance fits for Saamis a bit, but it also seems to inflate the Anatolian admix in them.

[Zanzibar]

edited

[Zanzibar]

for Europeans I include Corded_Ware_Baltic_early because most of the steppe in Europe seems to come from something like that, and Corded_Ware_DEU because it decreases the distance for western Europeans.


lol, I just read about kra001 on the blog and didn't check the spreadsheet since then. I assumed Krasnoyarsk was one of those heavily mixed pops like Okunevo or something.


I thought those were just ANE? did Davidski do a text on them?


idk, i'll try to model them. did you choose them, or the algorithm picked them from the full sheet?

Oh I see. I will admit that I'm not well versed on the deep history of European genetics. So this is new knowledge to me.

Yep. That Krasnoyarsk_BA is kra001.

I believe I learned from the reading the posts of users DMXX and K33 on Anthrogenica that Botai, Tyumen_HG, Sosonivoy_HG, etc. represented WSHG.

Well I found out about Volga_Kama while I was fooling around with the Saami in G25: I was trying to get the best models for them while trying to get the lowest amount of EEF for them.

[Leto]

Oh boy. So its them? Maybe I should delete the names.
Nah, it's an open secret. They know me well enough.

[Leto]

It's interesting that Krasnoyarsk_BA is actually some Mongoloid Siberian ethnicity. I thought there was a Bronze Age Indo-European settlement in Southern Krasnoyarsk krai. An Andronovo offshoot.

[Zanzibar]

Yeah. Here I added Chuvashes. There's a Mari-Chuvash component at PC4. At PC3, there's a cline with Hungarians at one end and Saami and Finnics at the other end. (This is not based on the original G25 coordinates but on a new PCA done on top of them.)

https://i.ibb.co/g425YdR/1.png



Here's it visualized. This is still based on G25 because I'm a scrub, but I'm learning. Sardinians are the furthest from Saami, but Bashkirs are the furthest from Sardinians. The colors are based on hkmeans clustering of all 25 components in G25 (so it's not just based on the values of the x and y axis shown here).

https://i.ibb.co/SRZpmj9/2.png

Fascinating so we can see a two extreme genetic cline/polarity in modern Europe: Sardinian vs Saami similar to the distance runs I did in the above post. There seems to be a third main cline as well which is between Sardinian vs Bashkir and Mari. Or is that also part of the mega-Uralic shift just like the Saami vs Sardinian?

[Zanzibar]

Nah, it's an open secret.

Are they also Russians?

[Zanzibar]

It's interesting that Krasnoyarsk_BA is actually some Mongoloid Siberian ethnicity. I thought there was a Bronze Age Indo-European settlement in Southern Krasnoyarsk krai. An Andronovo offshoot.

Its seems to be closest to modern Nganasans followed by other Arctic Mongoloids:


Distance to: RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
0.07359085 Nganassan
0.09931251 Yukagir_Tundra
0.10359971 Evenk
0.10885747 Even
0.13698954 Todzin
0.14596669 Koryak
0.15399420 Dolgan
0.15680229 Itelmen
0.16735577 Negidal
0.17938165 Tuvinian
0.18081621 Chukchi
0.18186288 Nenets
0.18199543 Khamnegan
0.18213032 Nanai
0.18498571 Ulchi
0.18748766 Mogush
0.19592066 Oroqen
0.19647349 Yakut
0.20028235 Sakha
0.20409146 Selkup
0.20492880 Nivkh
0.21267850 Buryat
0.22454598 Khakass_Kachins
0.22578708 Eskimo_Sireniki
0.22579014 Eskimo_Chaplin

I think those aformentioned are the Krasnoyarsk_MLBA samples (except MLBA_o which also seems to be some ancient Uralic population).


Distance to: RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA
0.06485224 Finnish
0.06655519 Ingrian
0.06851760 Russian_Kostroma
0.06871934 Mordovian
0.07009319 Swedish
0.07050833 Norwegian
0.07257580 Icelandic
0.07343191 Finnish_East
0.07363636 Russian_Tver
0.07372172 Karelian
0.07384420 Shetlandic
0.07411734 Danish
0.07508902 Russian_Kursk
0.07543096 Dutch
0.07565374 Irish
0.07615465 Orcadian
0.07624388 Cossack_Kuban
0.07657218 Moldovan_o
0.07666148 Scottish
0.07724872 Russian_Orel
0.07844721 Vepsian
0.07913077 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.07913486 Czech
0.07998305 Slovakian
0.08040808 Afrikaner

Distance to: RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA_o
0.08014976 Udmurt
0.08417164 Saami
0.09215585 Bashkir
0.09539886 Besermyan
0.10762466 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.11086167 Tatar_Siberian
0.11406306 Mari
0.11622623 Chuvash
0.12289860 Mansi
0.12562817 Saami_Kola
0.12701749 Tlingit
0.12813015 Yukagir_Forest
0.13113283 Tatar_Kazan
0.13359626 Khanty
0.13469000 Komi
0.13501766 Tatar_Lipka
0.14635294 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
0.14795552 Ket
0.15518310 Uzbek
0.15824462 Tatar_Mishar
0.16068362 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
0.16071646 Nogai
0.16295147 Turkmen
0.17015999 Tubalar
0.17353787 Hazara_Afghanistan

[vbnetkhio]

Have you heard of this sample: VK_NOR_LN_HG? It seems to be either EHG or SHG with very minor CHG. For some reason it improve the distance fits for Saamis a bit, but it also seems to inflate the Anatolian admix in them.

is it the same if you use Sidelkino instead?

[Leto]

Are they also Russians like you?
They are Polish. Dude, you just named the two users, let's stop this.

[Leto]

Its seems to be closest to modern Nganasans followed by other Arctic Mongoloids:


Distance to: RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
0.07359085 Nganassan
0.09931251 Yukagir_Tundra
0.10359971 Evenk
0.10885747 Even
0.13698954 Todzin
0.14596669 Koryak
0.15399420 Dolgan
0.15680229 Itelmen
0.16735577 Negidal
0.17938165 Tuvinian
0.18081621 Chukchi
0.18186288 Nenets
0.18199543 Khamnegan
0.18213032 Nanai
0.18498571 Ulchi
0.18748766 Mogush
0.19592066 Oroqen
0.19647349 Yakut
0.20028235 Sakha
0.20409146 Selkup
0.20492880 Nivkh
0.21267850 Buryat
0.22454598 Khakass_Kachins
0.22578708 Eskimo_Sireniki
0.22579014 Eskimo_Chaplin

I think those aformentioned are the Krasnoyarsk_MLBA samples (except MLBA_o which also seems to be some ancient Uralic population).


Distance to: RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA
0.06485224 Finnish
0.06655519 Ingrian
0.06851760 Russian_Kostroma
0.06871934 Mordovian
0.07009319 Swedish
0.07050833 Norwegian
0.07257580 Icelandic
0.07343191 Finnish_East
0.07363636 Russian_Tver
0.07372172 Karelian
0.07384420 Shetlandic
0.07411734 Danish
0.07508902 Russian_Kursk
0.07543096 Dutch
0.07565374 Irish
0.07615465 Orcadian
0.07624388 Cossack_Kuban
0.07657218 Moldovan_o
0.07666148 Scottish
0.07724872 Russian_Orel
0.07844721 Vepsian
0.07913077 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.07913486 Czech
0.07998305 Slovakian
0.08040808 Afrikaner

Distance to: RUS_Krasnoyarsk_MLBA_o
0.08014976 Udmurt
0.08417164 Saami
0.09215585 Bashkir
0.09539886 Besermyan
0.10762466 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.11086167 Tatar_Siberian
0.11406306 Mari
0.11622623 Chuvash
0.12289860 Mansi
0.12562817 Saami_Kola
0.12701749 Tlingit
0.12813015 Yukagir_Forest
0.13113283 Tatar_Kazan
0.13359626 Khanty
0.13469000 Komi
0.13501766 Tatar_Lipka
0.14635294 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
0.14795552 Ket
0.15518310 Uzbek
0.15824462 Tatar_Mishar
0.16068362 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
0.16071646 Nogai
0.16295147 Turkmen
0.17015999 Tubalar
0.17353787 Hazara_Afghanistan
Oh yeah, now I think the Siberian ones were up North while the whites were down south, closer to modern Tuva.

[Zanzibar]

Edited.

[Komintasavalta]

Oh yeah, now I think the Siberian ones were up North while the whites were down south, closer to modern Tuva.

kra001 is pretty far south too (orange dot here) (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/2/eabc4587):

https://i.ibb.co/0rgWLqc/20210217143326.jpg

Afontova Gora is right next to kra001, and Wikipedia says that Afontova Gora is in the Altai-Sayan region (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afontova_Gora):

https://i.ibb.co/mFQtpwQ/20210217142734.jpg

In another paper, Afontova Gora was said to be "south-central Siberian": "Sequencing of another south-central Siberian, Afontova Gora-2 dating to approximately 17,000 years ago[14], revealed similar autosomal genetic signatures as MA-1" (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4105016/).

Both kra and Afontova Gora are near the city of Krasnoyarsk.

[Komintasavalta]

Fascinating so we can see a two extreme genetic cline/polarity in modern Europe: Sardinian vs Saami similar to the distance runs I did in the above post. There seems to be a third main cline as well which is between Sardinian vs Bashkir and Mari. Or is that also part of the mega-Uralic shift just like the Saami vs Sardinian?

There's not that much difference if Maris are substituted for Saami.

Here's Maris vs Bulgarians (who are the second most extreme populations on the Travv scale):

https://i.ibb.co/MRSb8M1/3.png

Here's Khanty vs Armenians, who are the most extreme populations on the Travv scale. Now in addition to Europeans, I also included the 50 populations closest to Khanty and the 50 populations closest to Armenians. Sardinians are now the furthest from Khanty, just like how they were the furthest from Mari in the image above.

https://i.ibb.co/h1jCs2Q/4.png

I think these images make it clear how most Europeans are located on the left side of the Travv scale.

[Lemminkäinen]

Here is an example f3-test about the impact of the gene flows. Both populations have Siberian admixture, but in Finns the Evenk influence is bigger and in Saamis the Nganasan influence is bigger. If we suggest that Siberians are a homogeneous population giving approximately similar admixture rates, then we have to conclude that Nganasans have Saami admixture. In both test I had near million SNPs.

https://i.ibb.co/g4Ns7fm/sib1.png

Two f3-tests more to confirm the ratio between Nganasans and Evenks using populations nominally with zero Siberian admixture. Yes, the back noise shows similar ratio with Finns.

https://i.ibb.co/vLbHtzj/sib2.png

[Unknown European]

I would say Sardinians are more unique

Distance to: Sardinian
0.07422989 French_Corsica
0.07622489 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.08530642 Spanish_Menorca
0.08564922 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.08596929 Spanish_Murcia
0.08682517 Spanish_Andalucia
0.08701870 Italian_Bergamo
0.08706676 Spanish_Aragon
0.08720758 Spanish_Pirineu
0.08736874 Spanish_Castello

Distance to: Saami_Kola
0.03496789 Komi
0.05165166 Saami
0.05913623 Russian_Pinega
0.06430985 Tatar_Kazan
0.06453477 Tatar_Mishar
0.06494169 Besermyan
0.06853424 Vepsian
0.07062872 Udmurt
0.07111215 Finnish_East
0.07199221 Karelian

Distance to: Saami
0.05165166 Saami_Kola
0.05229796 Udmurt
0.06021780 Besermyan
0.07106311 Chuvash
0.07375363 Komi
0.08198600 Tatar_Kazan
0.09534176 Mari
0.10053647 Tatar_Mishar
0.10443703 Tatar_Lipka
0.10963287 Russian_Pinega

[Zanzibar]

I would say Sardinians are more unique

Distance to: Sardinian
0.07422989 French_Corsica
0.07622489 Spanish_La_Rioja
0.08530642 Spanish_Menorca
0.08564922 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
0.08596929 Spanish_Murcia
0.08682517 Spanish_Andalucia
0.08701870 Italian_Bergamo
0.08706676 Spanish_Aragon
0.08720758 Spanish_Pirineu
0.08736874 Spanish_Castello

Distance to: Saami_Kola
0.03496789 Komi
0.05165166 Saami
0.05913623 Russian_Pinega
0.06430985 Tatar_Kazan
0.06453477 Tatar_Mishar
0.06494169 Besermyan
0.06853424 Vepsian
0.07062872 Udmurt
0.07111215 Finnish_East
0.07199221 Karelian

Distance to: Saami
0.05165166 Saami_Kola
0.05229796 Udmurt
0.06021780 Besermyan
0.07106311 Chuvash
0.07375363 Komi
0.08198600 Tatar_Kazan
0.09534176 Mari
0.10053647 Tatar_Mishar
0.10443703 Tatar_Lipka
0.10963287 Russian_Pinega

Are you using population distance as the criteria in this Case?

[Zanzibar]

There's not that much difference if Maris are substituted for Saami.

Here's Maris vs Bulgarians (who are the second most extreme populations on the Travv scale):

https://i.ibb.co/MRSb8M1/3.png

Here's Khanty vs Armenians, who are the most extreme populations on the Travv scale. Now in addition to Europeans, I also included the 50 populations closest to Khanty and the 50 populations closest to Armenians. Sardinians are now the furthest from Khanty, just like how they were the furthest from Mari in the image above.

https://i.ibb.co/h1jCs2Q/4.png

I think these images make it clear how most Europeans are located on the left side of the Travv scale.

Yes it does. Clearly exhibits the wog vs uralic/siberian cline.