Lithuania wants compensation for Soviet-era 'occupation'

[European blood]

Lithuania's top diplomat urged Moscow on Tuesday to start considering the issue of compensation for the Soviet-era "occupation" of his country.

"I have encouraged Russia to open a dialogue on the joint evaluation of the past, the restoration of justice, compensation for the occupation, and problems of the investigation of crimes and the perpetuation of the memory of the victims," Foreign Minister Audronius Azubalis said following a session of the Russian-Lithuanian Intergovernmental Commission.

Russia has long been at odds with the Baltic states of Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia, as well as Poland, over perceived attempts to rewrite the history of World War II and diminish the Soviet role in the defeat of Nazi Germany.

While Russia maintains that the Red Army liberated the Baltic states from German invaders, many residents of the republics put the two occupations on a par, citing mass Stalin-era deportations.

Last year, the Lithuanian parliament approved amendments stipulating criminal penalties for those publicly justifying, denying or playing down international crimes, as well as crimes "committed by the U.S.S.R." and the Nazis against Lithuania.

Lithuania became the first Soviet republic to declare its independence on in March 1990. Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev called the declaration "illegitimate and invalid" and sent Soviet tanks to the capital, Vilnius. Although the tanks withdrew after a few hours, Soviet troops were still stationed in Lithuania. More than 10 people were killed and many more were injured during protests that started when Soviet troops tried to seize the television station in Vilnius in January 1991.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20111004/167382743.html

[sevruk]

Russia wants compensation for the plants, factories, schools, nuclear power plants, which it built in Lithuania.

[member]

Russia wants compensation for the plants, factories, schools, nuclear power plants, which it built in Lithuania.

Most products that those factories made where exported to other republics of SU. Also, they polluted our land.

While Russian goverment (as well as people) likes to take "merits", they don't want to recongnize all the bad things.

It is a commonly observed logic of some Russians. To think that "we gave you all", but in reality SU period only made these countries poorer.

[sevruk]

Most products that those factories made where exported to other republics of SU. Also, they polluted our land.

While Russian goverment (as well as people) likes to take "merits", they don't want to recongnize all the bad things.

It is a commonly observed logic of some Russians. To think that "we gave you all", but in reality SU period only made these countries poorer.

how schools and homes pollute nature?
as for factories, they were built a long time and they just need to rebuild in a timely manner

you had a nuclear power plant built in the USSR, which provides you with nearly full power, but you closed it, now buy electricity in Russia - a good business :D

[Anusiya]

Sevruk, please tell me your avatar is for comical purposes. :D

[sevruk]

Sevruk, please tell me your avatar is for comical purposes. :D

No, it is real modern Russia (eyed liberals) :D

[Hochmeister]

you had a nuclear power plant built in the USSR... but you closed it

Agreed.
Even Austria still don't have a nuclear power plant. She really got a lot of problems because of it and can't resolve them alone. On the other hand Lithuanians destroyed their economy and industry voluntaryly. LOL.
And - in a passing - the nuclear plants are the most ecologically clean among other power station types in the world.

[Anusiya]

Agreed.
Even Austria still don't have a nuclear power plant. She really got a lot of problems because of it and can't resolve them alone. On the other hand Lithuanians destroyed their economy and industry voluntaryly. LOL.
And - in a passing - the nuclear plants are the most ecologically clean among other power station types in the world.

I don't think they destroyed them. I suspect their elite sold off their infrastructure for peanuts and let the people starve. And now they blame the soviets for making them for them. :D

[member]

how schools and homes pollute nature?
as for factories, they were built a long time and they just need to rebuild in a timely manner

you had a nuclear power plant built in the USSR, which provides you with nearly full power, but you closed it, now buy electricity in Russia - a good business :D

You don't understand. These countries would have achieved not less if not probably more without the "help" of SU.

I have already written why factories didn't make these countries richer. But there is another aspect. Many people were killed or forced to move to the West, many of them were "the brains" of the nation. Not to mention the supression of our ethnicness and human rights.

And look at what we have now. Corruption, dissapointment, alcoholism etc., the psychological aspect of living in SU made awful marks that continue to exist.

I have already writtent to Sarmatian that unlike Russians, people here had a chance to live in democratic conditions before becoming a part of SU. We were able to use the chance pretty well. That's why we can compare what we have and what we would have now. I think this is the hardest part for you to understand.

[Hochmeister]

Most products that those factories made where exported to other republics of SU.


So what? The Soviet inner market used to be rather rich. Actually the East Bloc had a more powerfull economical potential then the West.

On the other hand, the Soviet production was of good quality, even in 1991 a lot of Soviet equipment and machines were sold in Western Europe and other developed countries.

Look at Transistria, they have only old Soviet factories with a bit outdated equipment but they EXPORT their production to Europe (Germany, Italy etc.)

And Belarus exports a lot of good equipment too.

But you -Lithuanians- destroyed everything and live on debts from Brussels. That's silly.


in reality SU period only made these countries poorer.


LOL. The modern Baltic States are bankrupts. You have no work, factories and industry, your youth is living the country and became despised "slaves" and "Polish plumbers" in the West. No doubt, the life conditions were better in the USSR.

[Hochmeister]

That's why we can compare what we have and what we would have now. I think this is the hardest part for you to understand.

The Baltic States used to be among the poorest countries in Europe in 1930's.
And there was no an occupation. Since every occupation does ligally mean an armed conflict and a storm of a capital.
There was a lot of Lithuanins who supported the Soviets. I'd say 50/50. That's why there was no an armed conflict (compare it with the Soviet -Finnisg war). That was not an occupation if to speak legally. As well as the Latvian guards - with other Baltids - won the Bolshevik revolution.

On the other hand Russian Empire bought the Baltic States from Sweden. And all the Baltic States became "independent" when the Germans occupied them in WW1. Actually they used to be German puppets. So, their separation and independence from the Empire were illegal.

[member]

So what? The Soviet inner market used to be rather rich. Actually the East Bloc had a more powerfull economical potential then the West.

On the other hand, the Soviet production was of good quality, even in 1991 a lot of Soviet equipment and machines were sold in Western Europe and other developed countries.

Look at Transistria, they have only old Soviet factories with a bit outdated equipment but they EXPORT their production to Europe (Germany, Italy etc.)

And Belarus exports a lot of good equipment too.

But you -Lithuanians- destroyed everything and live on debts from Brussels. That's silly.



LOL. The modern Baltic States are bankrupts. You have no work, factories and industry, your youth is living the country and became despised "slaves" and "Polish plumbers" in the West. No doubt, the life conditions were better in the USSR.

People started living poorer after the occupation. It was very noticeable. Together with mass deportations.

The best factories were built in Baltic states. But even here many produced things didn't match quality. Onle a small part of produced goods matched requirements.


You have no idea about life cinditions in SU.

People had very narrow choise of goods. Many goods that are now usual things were only available through special contacts. You can't even image how narrow the choise of goods were.

We are not bankrupt.

[sevruk]

You don't understand. These countries would have achieved not less if not probably more without the "help" of SU.

"would have" "would have" this is bullshit
problem Lithuanians (Latvians, Estonians, Poles) is that you are living in the past

[Anusiya]

"would have" "would have" this is bullshit
problem Lithuanians (Latvians, Estonians, Poles) is that you are living in the past

I don't think that Poles live that much in the past. They in fact are doing some hearty efforts too. I don't know about the Baltics that much.

[sevruk]

I don't think that Poles live that much in the past. They in fact are doing some hearty efforts too. I don't know about the Baltics that much.

Poles also regularly recall the Soviet past, but even so they are more adequate

[Hochmeister]

This is Lithuania in 1920's

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Rzeczpospolita_Lithuania_claims.png


She lost her capital Wilno (Vilnius), which was occupied by Poland. Memel (Klaipeda) was in Germany

And compare it with the modern post-Soviet Lithuanian map:

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/ltnewzzz.gif


Vilnius is back. Klaipeda (Memel) is Lithuanian. It was done for Lithuania by the evil Soviet occupants. :)

That's so disgusting to watch Lithuanian rusophobia.

[Anusiya]

Poles also regularly recall the Soviet past, but even so they are more adequate

Well, I think they have some right to recall it. ;) They didn't have the best of party times between the two of you.

[member]

The Baltic States used to be among the poorest countries in Europe in 1930's.
And there was no an occupation. Since every occupation does ligally mean an armed conflict and a storm of a capital.
There was a lot of Lithuanins who supported the Soviets. I'd say 50/50. That's why there was no an armed conflict (compare it with the Soviet -Finnisg war). That was not an occupation if to speak legally. As well as the Latvian guards - with other Baltids - won the Bolshevik revolution.

On the other hand Russian Empire bought the Baltic States from Sweden. And all the Baltic States became "independent" when the Germans occupied them in WW1. Actually they used to be German puppets. So, their separation and independence from the Empire were illegal.

You can not compare these areas with let's say Germany, but..the start was very good.


And there was no an occupation. Since every occupation does ligally mean an armed conflict and a storm of a capital.
There was a lot of Lithuanins who supported the Soviets. I'd say 50/50. That's why there was no an armed conflict (compare it with the Soviet -Finnisg war). That was not an occupation if to speak legally. As well as the Latvian guards - with other Baltids - won the Bolshevik revolution.


Ridiculous. President A. Smetona didn't inform and refused to use military power because Lithuania would have lost anyway, SU was a lot stronger. How silly to compare tiny Lithuania with huge SU.

There weren't a lot of Lithuanians who supported SU due to previously introduced agriculture reform. People had their own land and simply there was no need to support people telling they're being used unlike in Russia.

This is how it happened:


Once the Winter War in Finland was over and Germany was making rapid advances against Denmark and Norway and against France and the Low Countries, the Soviets heightened their diplomatic pressure on Lithuania, culminating in the Soviet ultimatum to Lithuania of June 1940. The ultimatum demanded the formation a new pro-Soviet government and admission of an unspecified number of Russian troops. Lithuania accepted the ultimatum as effective military resistance was impossible with Soviet troops already within the country according to the Mutual Assistance Pact.* President Antanas Smetona left Lithuania as the Soviet military forces (15 divisions with 150,000 soldiers) crossed the Lithuanian border on June 15, 1940. As the Soviet Union occupied and annexed Lithuania in accordance with the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact,[61][62] Lithuania lost its independence.
Soviet troops marching into Lithuania (June 1940)

Soviet representative Vladimir Dekanozov formed the new pro-Soviet puppet government, known as the People's Government. Justas Paleckis replaced Smetona as the acting President of Lithuania. The new government was a rubber stamp institution, carrying out orders from Moscow. The Fourth Seimas was disbanded and new show elections to the so-called People's Seimas were organized on July 14–15, 1940. With only Communist-approved candidates running, official results showed over 90% of voter turnout and support for the Communists. During its first session on July 21 the People's Seimas unanimously decided to convert Lithuania into the Lithuanian SSR and petition to join the Soviet Union. The petition was approved by the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union on August 3, which completed the formalization of the occupation.

*It was signed because SU required to do it otherwise - war.


It was occupation because people didn't agree but as I said military actions from Lithuanian side coudln't change the result.

By the way, it's incorrect to say that there were no military actions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Brothers


The Forest Brothers (also Brothers of the Forest; Forest Brethren; Forest Brotherhood; Estonian: metsavennad, Latvian: meža brāļi, Lithuanian: miško broliai) were Estonian, Latvian, and Lithuanian partisans who waged a guerrilla war against Soviet rule during the Soviet invasion and occupation of the three Baltic states during, and after, World War II. Similar anti-Soviet Eastern European resistance groups fought against Soviet and communist rule in Bulgaria, Poland, Romania, Croatia and western Ukraine.


Among the three countries, the resistance was best organized in Lithuania, where guerrilla units controlled whole regions of the countryside until 1949.


On the other hand Russian Empire bought the Baltic States from Sweden. And all the Baltic States became "independent" when the Germans occupied them in WW1. Actually they used to be German puppets. So, their separation and independence from the Empire were illegal.

What? Lithuanian-Polish commonwealth (inckuding Latgale) was portitioned by Russia, Austria and Prussia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland
And what did you mean bought from Sweden? They went through war.
Baltic states were occupied by Germany in WW1, for some time and yes, it was a time of opression.

What do you mean illegal? By today's standarts nothing's illegal if it's done in undemoctratic way (without people's agreement).

[member]

This is Lithuania in 1920's

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Rzeczpospolita_Lithuania_claims.png


She lost her capital Wilno (Vilnius), which was occupied by Poland. Memel (Klaipeda) was in Germany

And compare it with the modern post-Soviet Lithuanian map:

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/ltnewzzz.gif


Vilnius is back. Klaipeda (Memel) is Lithuanian. It was done for Lithuania by the evil Soviet occupants. :)

That's so disgusting to watch Lithuanian rusophobia.

Conditions of Mutual Assistance Pact of the year 1939:

1) Lithuania sings the treaty allowing SU to keep military crews in Lithuania and gets back Vilnius land.
2) does not sign the treaty and goes into war against SU.

What kind of fool are you to say that Vilnius land was just gifted to Lithuania. They gave back Vilnius land but occupied whole Lithuania.

[member]

"would have" "would have" this is bullshit
problem Lithuanians (Latvians, Estonians, Poles) is that you are living in the past

This is not bullshit because it showed our potential.

So you think living in the past means objective evaluation of the past?

you talk about schools, but forget that they helped to raise homo sovieticus. we didn't need such schools. we only wanted to do things our own way in our own lands, is it so hard for you to comprehend it?

[Sarmatian]

... citing mass Stalin-era deportations...


I don't see how Russians of today responsible for what happened under Stalin's rule and atrocities commited by Commies. If anything Russians actually the ones who suffered most and very often from members of Baltic states and other ethnic minorities who were one of the most prominent forces supporting Bolsheviks. These guys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Riflemen) basically served as foundation for Red Army.

[member]

I don't see how Russians of today responsible for what happened under Stalin's rule and atrocities commited by Commies. If anything Russians actually the ones who suffered most and very often from members of Baltic states and other ethnic minorities who were one of the most prominent forces supporting Bolsheviks. These guys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Riflemen) basically served as foundation for Red Army.

I don't think that compensation is a real thing either and that it should be required from Russians who aren't the richest people anyway... Recognozing that occupations did happen would be better and more real imo. But even this step is so hard.

[1810-2010]

"would have" "would have" this is bullshit
problem Lithuanians (Latvians, Estonians, Poles) is that you are living in the past

Baltic countries, I do not knwo much aboutt o judge but about Poles, I herd theyare, as said Anusiya, are doing really very well.
They economy has been in continious growing forvthe last 20 years.

[member]

By the way...:

International views

Most Western Bloc governments maintained that Baltic sovereignty had not been legitimately been overridden[63] and thus continued to recognize the Baltic states as sovereign political entities represented by the legations appointed by the pre-1940 Baltic states which functioned in Washington and elsewhere.[64]

The Baltic states,[65][66] the United States[67][68] and its courts of law,[69] the European Parliament,[70][71][72] the European Court of Human Rights[73] and the United Nations Human Rights Council[74] have all stated that these three countries were invaded, occupied and illegally incorporated into the Soviet Union under provisions[75] of the 1939 Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, first by the Soviet Union, then by Nazi Germany from 1941 to 1944, and again by the Soviet Union from 1944 to 1991.[76][77][78][79][80][81][82][83] This policy of non-recognition has given rise to the principle of legal continuity, which holds that de jure, the Baltic states have remained independent states under illegal occupation throughout the period 1940–91.[84][85][86]

Of course, opinion of some obviously uneducated and arrogant internet person is really valuable. Loser.

[Graham]

Russia wants compensation for the plants, factories, schools, nuclear power plants, which it built in Lithuania.

Trying to imply the nations didn't have National Income, Expenditure and Output. It's not as simple as we gave you this & that.

[member]

Baltic countries, I do not knwo much aboutt o judge but about Poles, I herd theyare, as said Anusiya, are doing really very well.
They economy has been in continious growing forvthe last 20 years.

Those pro-soviet peole simply can't comprehend that Baltic states can do fine without interruption of Russia or Soviet Union.

They have this image about the glorious past of Soviet Union and can't understand that it actually meant steps backwards for the people of Baltic States. Many people emigrate for shorter or longer time to the West and see the difference. It's all very logical actually, they are only butthurt that people of Baltic states don't share nostalgia for Soviet Union. These pro-soviet people themselves are living in the past.

[sevruk]

This is not bullshit because it showed our potential.

So you think living in the past means objective evaluation of the past?

you talk about schools, but forget that they helped to raise homo sovieticus. we didn't need such schools. we only wanted to do things our own way in our own lands, is it so hard for you to comprehend it?

I think you have a butthurt, go to the doctor

[member]

I think you have a butthurt, go to the doctor

I'm not butthurt, it's you people(Hochmeister and you) who have comprehension problems (or is it your sight bad?). Read my post above. I have explained it.

Butthurt. What I silly word. When you talk about such things, you don't use word buthhurt.


We are living in 21th century. Why this history interpretation that sounds like Soviet propaganda???

[Sarmatian]

This thread is a good example of how games of politics create tensions between common folks of different ethnicities.

Balts should not complain because they contributed to creation of the force that destroyed Russian Empire and later turned on them. Its plain retarded to complain about 'evil Russian commies' because they were Russian, Latvian, Ukrainian, Tatar, Georgian etc. Some commissars were even black American citizen so you should go ask USA or Nigeria for compensation :rolleyes:

On the other hands the attempts of some Russians to justify annexation of Baltic states as if it was good for them is pathetic. Its seems like you really feel some sort of guilt for the occupation. Personally I don't feel like responsible for the actions of mad political genius of Georgian-Ossetian origin 60-70 years ago.

Balts didn't like it, they didn't want it, they wanted to be separated so it was unjust. Let them be!!! If they will manage good on their own Russia will get a successful prosperous neighbour :thumb001: If not then we will mock them later for their stupidity :p

[Hayalet]

I honestly don't know if these demands of compensation are justified, but there isn't any point denying the Russian Federation is the successor state to the Soviet Union:


The Russian Federation was declared the USSR's successor state on the grounds that it contained 51% of the population of the USSR and 77% of its territory. In consequence, Russia and the United Nations agreed that it would acquire the USSR's seat as a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council. All Soviet embassies became Russian embassies.

[member]

Its plain retarded to complain about 'evil Russian commies' because they were Russian, Latvian, Ukrainian, Tatar, Georgian etc. Some commissars were even black American citizen so you should go ask USA or Nigeria for compensation

Stalin had a Lithuanian guard, Germany had Alfred Naujocks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Naujocks).. but it does not mean that Lithuanians as a nation supported Hitler or Stalin. For the same reason I don't hate on Russians. I despise soviet propagandist thinking which some Russians happen to show. I even checked my posts using fast "search function of firefox, and no, I didn't write Russians instead of Soviets.


On the other hands the attempts of some Russians to justify annexation of Baltic states as if it was good for them is pathetic. Its seems like you really feel some sort of guilt for the occupation. Personally I don't feel like responsible for the actions of mad political genius of Georgian-Ossetian origin 60-70 years ago.


I'm not casting the blame on sevruk or you. I just don't understand why is it so hard to for sevruk and several others to understand different point of view. As if talking bad (rightfully) about SU, somehow offends them personally.


Balts didn't like it, they didn't want it, they wanted to be separated so it was unjust. Let them be!!! If they will manage good on their own Russia will get a successful prosperous neighbour If not then we will mock them later for their stupidity

I don't think that Russians are smarter tbh, we can always mock you too.

And I don't understand why you need to be under the roof of Russia to succeed. It's not very advanced country historically anyway. And now I wouldn't say that Liths live worse than Russians in Russia.

[sevruk]

I despise soviet propagandist thinking which some Russians happen to show.

I despise the liberal, pro-American, anti-conservative and anti-European thinking too, regardless of nationality

[member]

I despise the liberal, pro-American, anti-conservative and anti-European thinking too

You can't grasp my thinking. Just because I despise pro soviet, imperialist propagandist thinking (don't forget that SU was freakin totalitarian state!) does not mean that I love every aspect of the West. But I do believe that for my people it's better when they have the right to embrace their ethnicity, language and have basic human rights.

[Sarmatian]

I honestly don't know if these demands of compensation are justified, but there isn't any point denying the Russian Federation is the successor state to the Soviet Union:

I do have a reason to deny the succession as it is put now. I refuse to blindly accept the decision made by criminal government of drunkard Yeltsin. It should've been carefully considered by specialists in internation law and agreements signed by all involved parties to ensure the coming generations are protected from any sort of speculations and exploits that can be used by lunatics to stir tensions and may even lead to wars.

[Anusiya]

You can't grasp my thinking. Just because I despise pro soviet, imperialist propagandist thinking (don't forget that SU was freakin totalitarian state!) does not mean that I love every aspect of the West. But I do believe that for my people it's better when they have the right to embrace their ethnicity, language and have basic human rights.

Do you despise only Soviet imperialism, or any imperialism irrespective of nationality? :rolleyes: In other words is only Soviet imperialism bad?

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT0ntu2C1ggIs17axDwnF0yWDLwHZcmM 6WakLdsyhCsLD9p8nhS9Q&t=1

[sevruk]

basic human rights.
:picard1: :picard1: :picard1:
I wonder where were the basic rights killed indigenous peoples of America and Australia, as well as innocent people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? :D

where the basic rights white European men suffering from immigration?

[sevruk]

don't forget that SU was freakin totalitarian state!
in a freakin totalitarian state, there was no discrimination based on color as a democratic free U.S. :D

[member]

Do you despise only Soviet imperialism, or any imperialism wherever it comes from? :rolleyes: In other words is only Soviet imperialism bad?

During Russian empire's period Lithuania experienced Lithuanian press ban that lasted 40 years, there weren't even schools where you could learn to read Lithuanian, it was forbiden, only small illegal ones existed. They tried to tell Lithuanian that they used to be Russian. Lithuanians demonstrated their will and weren't russified at all, but it undirectly stimulated polonization in some regions. I hope I don't need to explain what harm did Soviet imperialism.

There are forms of imperialism, not all of them are equally bad.

[member]

:picard1: :picard1: :picard1:
I wonder where were the basic rights killed indigenous peoples of America and Australia, as well as innocent people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? :D

where the basic rights white European men suffering from immigration?

Congratz. You cut out my words out of context and play a tower of intelligence. Read my post again.

[member]

Do you despise only Soviet imperialism, or any imperialism irrespective of nationality? :rolleyes: In other words is only Soviet imperialism bad?

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT0ntu2C1ggIs17axDwnF0yWDLwHZcmM 6WakLdsyhCsLD9p8nhS9Q&t=1

Read my post again. Were did I write about "good Nazis". Again, one more tower of intelligence.

[Breedingvariety]

I think the compensation demand is kabuki theater act. To distract from the sorry state Lithuania is in.

[Anusiya]

Read my post again. Were did I write about "good Nazis". Again, one more tower of intelligence.


Yes, you are right. I am sorry for the prejudice I have shown.

[sevruk]

During Russian empire's period Lithuanian experienced Lithuanian press ban that lasted 40 years, there wasn't even schools where you could learn to read Lithuanian, it was forbiden, only small illegal ones existed. They tried to tell Lithuanian that they used to be Russian. Lithuanians demonstrated their will and weren't russified at all, but it undirectly stimulated polonization in some regions. I hope I din't need to explain what harm did Soviet imperialism.

There are forms of imperialism, not all of them are equally bad.
It is common practice for empires. for examples, in the Austrian Empire were banned Slavic languages.

but even here you lie, in the Russian Empire, there was no law prohibiting the talk and teach in languages ​​other than Russian.

In addition, most of Lithuania's population was rural, and the towns were not fully Lithuanians (Jews, Poles)

[member]

It is common practice for empires. for examples, in the Austrian Empire were banned Slavic languages.

but even here you lie, in the Russian Empire, there was no law prohibiting the talk and teach in languages ​​other than Russian.

In addition, most of Lithuania's population was rural, and the towns were not fully Lithuanians (Jews, Poles)

No one forbade to speak Lithuanian, but only Russian schools could exist, they didn't teach Lithuanian language and in Lithuanian.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_press_ban

The Lithuanian press ban (Lithuanian: spaudos draudimas) was a ban on all Lithuanian language publications printed in the Latin alphabet within the Russian Empire, which controlled Lithuania at the time. Lithuanian-language publications that used Cyrillic were allowed and even encouraged.

Under the ban, it was illegal to print, import, distribute, or possess any publications in the Latin alphabet.[2] Tsarist authorities hoped that this measure, part of a larger Russification plan, would decrease Polish influence on Lithuanians and would return them to what were considered their ancient historical ties with Russia.[3]

So what that the population was rural? Ethnic awakening meant that a lot more people started writing in Lithuanian, that there was a need to teach Lithuanians reading and writing. Even peasants.


It is common practice for empires. for examples, in the Austrian Empire were banned Slavic languages.

So what that it's common, that does not mean ethnic and other opression of Lithuanians should be considered as good or that it didn't happen.

[member]

By the way:


Public and private education in Lithuanian was adversely affected by the press ban. The level of pent-up demand for schooling in the 19th century is illustrated by the increase in literacy in the Rietavas area; between 1853 and 1863, just before the ban, the number of literate persons rose from 11,296 to 24,330.[2] The subsequent ban is thought to have contributed to illiteracy in 19th-century Lithuania.[21]

In the wake of the ruling, parish schools were closed. A shortage of teachers led to the closure of a number of state schools as well, in spite of population growth. Parents began to withdraw their children from the state schools, since they were associated with the policy of Russification; students were not allowed to speak Lithuanian among themselves, and a discouraging atmosphere was created by the system of searches, inspections, and spying. Many students were schooled at home or in small secret groups instead, although this practice also resulted in sanctions.[2]

A census of the Kovno Governorate in 1897 showed that a higher proportion of older people than younger had received formal education: of persons age 30 to 39, 61.87% had experienced some level of formal education, compared to only 54.68% of persons aged 10 to 19.[2]

[Hochmeister]

Ridiculous. President A. Smetona didn't inform and refused to use military power because Lithuania would have lost anyway, SU was a lot stronger. How silly to compare tiny Lithuania with huge SU.

Finland is also a little country, but the Finnish people didn't want to give up. Finland was defeated, but the Soviet government decided not to take the whole territory because the whole people hated them.

On the other hand there was a lot of Lithuanian Communists and rusophiles, Lithuania used to be a Soviet Republic untill it was occupied by Poland.

Lithuanian–Belorussian Soviet Socialist Republic or Litbel ... was a Soviet socialist republic, that existed within the territories of modern Belarus and eastern Lithuania for approximately seven months during 1919. It was created after the merger of Lithuanian Soviet Socialist Republic and the Socialist Soviet Republic of Byelorussia. The republic was dissolved after the Polish Army took over its claimed territory of eastern Lithuania during the Polish–Soviet War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian%E2%80%93Belorussian_Soviet_Socialist_Re public

A lot of Lithuanian soldiers fought for Bolsheviks in the Civil War within the former Russian Empire.

Lithuania was not a democratic country, because Smetona was a dictator:

The 1926 Lithuanian coup d'état (Lithuanian: 1926-ųjų perversmas) was a military coup d'etat in Lithuania that resulted in the replacement of the democratically elected government with a conservative authoritarian government led by Antanas Smetona.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1926_Lithuanian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

And Lithuanians hated Smetona, who forbade all the alternative political parties, including powerful Lithuanian Communist movement.

Smetona signed the Agreement with the Third Reich, where was said that Lithuania was going to become a German protectorate.

The September 20, 1939 talks between Lithuania and Germany produced a deal by which the former consented to being a protectorate of the latter. As an additional cautionary measure, on September 30, 1939 Hitler ordered the German troops to stay in East Prussia with an eye to prompt occupation of Lithuania, if necessary, at the cost of suppressing the republic's resistance.
http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2011/07/03/lithuanias-games-around-legacy-alleged-soviet-occupation.html

But the Soviets arranged with the Germans to take Lithuania in the Soviet sphere of influence.

And actually Smetona wanted to fight with the Soviets but the Lithuanian government didn't support this traitor, that's why Smetona fled from the country to the Third Reich and then to the USA.

The elections of the new parliament were made according to the Lithuanian laws and were confirmed by the Lithuanian Prime-minister.

Lithuanians celebrate the entry into the USSR
http://victory.rusarchives.ru/img/photos/1528_1349803232_big.jpg

[Hochmeister]

With only Communist-approved candidates running, official results showed over 90% of voter turnout and support for the Communists.

It was according to the laws of Lithuania, which were created by Smetona.

[Hochmeister]

And what did you mean bought from Sweden? They went through war.


Russia won the war, but bought the lands of the modern Baltic States as a result (modern Latvia and Estonia).
It seems it has nothing to do with Lithuania, sorry I confused them.


What do you mean illegal? By today's standarts nothing's illegal if it's done in undemoctratic way (without people's agreement).

According to the international law of those days, Lithuanian independence was illegal (and I bet it's still illegal in our days because there was no an official referendum in Lithuania to leave the USSR).

[Breedingvariety]

We need to look at the reasons. It is clear to me, reasons for Lithuanian integration and separation from USSR were not nationalistic. Reasons for very existence of USSR were not nationalistic. Nationalistic squabble about the issue are pointless.

The most similar state to USSR is European Union. Food for thought.

[Hochmeister]

we only wanted to do things our own way in our own lands, is it so hard for you to comprehend it?

Lithuanians had their own way in their own land, because Lithuania had a Lithuanian leader, Lithuanian Communist Party, Lithuanian parliament and Lithuanian sovereign Statehood (according to the Soviet constitution) within the Union (the same as Lithuania in the European Union).



By the way...:

International views

Most Western Bloc governments maintained that Baltic sovereignty had not been legitimately been overridden[63] and thus continued to recognize the Baltic states as sovereign political entities represented by the legations appointed by the pre-1940 Baltic states which functioned in Washington and elsewhere.[64]

The Baltic states,[65][66] the United States[67][68] and its courts of law,[69] the European Parliament,[70][71][72] the European Court of Human Rights[73] and the United Nations Human Rights Council[74] have all stated that these three countries were invaded, occupied and illegally incorporated into the Soviet Union under provisions[75] of the 1939 Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, first by the Soviet Union, then by Nazi Germany from 1941 to 1944, and again by the Soviet Union from 1944 to 1991.[76][77][78][79][80][81][82][83] This policy of non-recognition has given rise to the principle of legal continuity, which holds that de jure, the Baltic states have remained independent states under illegal occupation throughout the period 1940–91.[84][85][86]

Of course, opinion of some obviously uneducated and arrogant internet person is really valuable. Loser.

Politically motivated partial bullshit in the days of the Cold War.

[Hochmeister]

it actually meant steps backwards for the people of Baltic States.

Yes, to get factories instead of the fish trade was a step backwards for Lithuania :picard2:

[Breedingvariety]

Yes, to get factories instead of the fish trade was a step backwards for Lithuania :picard2:
The slaves of Soviet Union could not believe riches of Lithuania in 1944, let alone riches of Brandenburg- Prussia in 1945.

Are you so ashamed to be Russian.

[Hochmeister]

During Russian empire's period Lithuania experienced Lithuanian press ban that lasted 40 years

Russian Empire and Soviet Union are different States. The ethnic minorities had more rights and support then Russians there in the Soviet Union.

And the Lithuanian press ban was done because of the January Uprising (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_Uprising).

It was only banned to print Lithuanian books in Latin alphabet (Cyrillic alphabet was allowed).
And BTW Russians were undergoing a harassment in the days of the Poland-Lithuania.

[Hochmeister]

Are you so ashamed to be Russian.

Well, I'm a descendant of the Teutonic knights who lived in Estonia. I also have Lithuanian and Russian blood. But I consider myself to be a German. ;)

[Breedingvariety]

Hochmeister, why do you live in Kaliningrad, go back to your Stalingrad.

[Silent]

Well, I'm a descendant of the Teutonic knights who lived in Estonia. I also have Lithuanian and Russian blood. But I consider myself to be a German. ;)
Lithuanians are Balticised Poles, simple as that.

[Hochmeister]

Hochmeister, why do you live in Kaliningrad, go back to your Stalingrad.

Go and get rid of the inferiority complex, muchacho. :rolleyes:

[Hochmeister]

Lithuanians are Balticised Poles, simple as that.

Well, I think there is no a major difference between Poles, Russians and Lithuanians in the DNA. The culture actually is the only difference.

[Breedingvariety]

Go and get rid of the inferiority complex, muchacho. :rolleyes:
Touche, muzhik.

[member]

Finland is also a little country, but the Finnish people didn't want to give up. Finland was defeated, but the Soviet government decided not to take the whole territory because the whole people hated them.


There are several reasons:

Lithuania had only one person who could be compared to Mannerheim, that person was Silvestras Žukauskas but he died too early. Lithuanian didn't have other generals with great experience in Tsarist Russia's army.

Finalnd didn't sign Mutual Assistance Pact, so didn't have Soviet crews in their lands.

Unlike Finland who was neighbours only with one possible agressor, Lithuania had problems with Poland and Germany. Lithuania mainly concentrated on Poland and din't realize the danger of SU. On the contrary, in a way, it was use as a friendly country because SU was the only country acknowledged Vilnius region's borders settled by the treaty of 1920-07-12.


So yes, Lithuaniandidn't all it could, but there were aspects that couldn't be influences such the first point. Also, theer could be other differences such as weather, geographical position, etc. I' m not an expert of Winter war.

Finland wasn't defeated judging from the number of killed Soviet soldiers... :picard1:
Do you think that SU made polls how many Finns hated SU and then based on the results decided what to do next. because that's what you are actually telling.


On the other hand there was a lot of Lithuanian Communists and rusophiles,

Troll. There wasn't a lot of Lithuanian communists. I have already said why. Because of a very simple reason - communists could not propose them anything they didn't have, that is, peasants had land, they weren't milked down by masters. Unlike in Russia. Even in Latvia communists had greater support because Latvian agricultural reform wasn't so drastic, but even in Latvia support for communists wasn't massive.


Lithuania used to be a Soviet Republic untill it was occupied by Poland.

Lithuanian–Belorussian Soviet Socialist Republic or Litbel ... was a Soviet socialist republic, that existed within the territories of modern Belarus and eastern Lithuania for approximately seven months during 1919. It was created after the merger of Lithuanian Soviet Socialist Republic and the Socialist Soviet Republic of Byelorussia. The republic was dissolved after the Polish Army took over its claimed territory of eastern Lithuania during the Polish–Soviet War.


Litbel was established by Bolsheviks. It clearly talks about foreign Bolsheviks. There were several supporters in Lithuania, but these were foreigners who fought in Bolshevik side.
And no need for that dramatical tone as it existed... for whole 7 months!

More about Litbel:
The government was financed by loans from Russian SFSR.[1] Historians describe it as "artificial creation" or "fiction".[8]

Local soviets (bolshevik councils) usually didn't have any real power in other cities than Vilnius, so it shows how "much" bolsheviks were supported by Lithuanians.

Yeah, we should be thankful to Poland, in a way. I'm not denying it. But Lithuanians also fought and pushed out Bolsheviks out of their territory.


Lithuania was not a democratic country, because Smetona was a dictator:

The 1926 Lithuanian coup d'état (Lithuanian: 1926-ųjų perversmas) was a military coup d'etat in Lithuania that resulted in the replacement of the democratically elected government with a conservative authoritarian government led by Antanas Smetona.

Before Smetona Lithuania had democtratically elected goverment. You quote clearly mentioned take over, that is, it was done without asking the nation. BUT it can not be compared to Nazist Russia or Soviet Union because unlike the wo mentioned it was authoritarian dictatorship. Only seevral countries in Euroope during interbellum were democtratic.

On the causes of coup d'état :

Historians have also discussed an exaggerated fear of communism[1] as a factor, along with the lack of a stable center that could reach out to parties on the left and right; these parties accused each other of Bolshevism and fascism.[14]


And Lithuanians hated Smetona, who forbade all the alternative political parties, including powerful Lithuanian Communist movement.

They didn't hate him as mcuh as you want to imagine. Lithuanian Communist movement wasn't powerful. i have explained why many times.

When they could legally take part in Seimas election, they got whole 5 seats in the parliament (they were forbidden to take part in later elections):
The first Seimas of Lithuania - 5 communists out of 90 members.

Tarp 78 jo narių buvo 12 Ūkininkų sąjungos, 15 krikščionių demokratų partijos, 11 Darbo federacijos, 20 valstiečių liaudininkų sąjungos, 10 socialdemokratų partijos, 5 darbininkų kuopų (komunistai), 3 žydų, 2 lenkų atstovai. Iš viso Pirmojo Seimo nariais buvo 90 atstovų.

About Smetona's style of rule:


A. Smetona, though propagandizing nationalism, repudiated both Italian fascism and German National Socialism. He strove to create a unique form of governing for Lithuania, which, to his mind, would suit best the character of the nation and would foster most strongly the spiritual culture and welfare of the nation.
http://www2.omnitel.net/ramunas/Lietuva/lt_government_presidents_smetona.shtml


Smetona signed the Agreement with the Third Reich, where was said that Lithuania was going to become a German protectorate.

The September 20, 1939 talks between Lithuania and Germany produced a deal by which the former consented to being a protectorate of the latter. As an additional cautionary measure, on September 30, 1939 Hitler ordered the German troops to stay in East Prussia with an eye to prompt occupation of Lithuania, if necessary, at the cost of suppressing the republic's resistance.
http://www.strategic-culture.org/new...ccupation.html

Nah, the cases of Povilaitis are fake and don't match the reality. It's just Soviet propaganda. Smetona didn't plan to give up to Germany at all. A. Povilaitis went to Berlin, but with a question "Would Germany react if SU attacked it? Would Germany offer help?". In 1960 the journal "Komunistas" published these fake cases of Povilaitis, so here is the source of your article - a communist journal.


We can not deny the caess of Povilaitis because of unreality some one single aspect, but almost every more important detail on the trip that is dicussed in the cases, is doubtful. [...] Normally there are given two sources: the cases of Povilaitis and W Best's table velandar and letters wriiten to Myllyniemi in 1975.[...] Myllyniemi gives extracts from Best's diary in his book, but Myllyniemi does not mention any diary of Best and do not cite anything from it, only Best's table calendar survided, but not the diary.[...] So basically everything relies on cases of Povilaitis to Soviet security. A. Solženicyn, R. Medvedev and Englis historian R. Conquest wrote in detail about Soviet security's inquiry and tirturing methods. N. Khrushchev (in his secret speech) noted that during Stalin period interrogators made the arrested ones to ackowledge themselves as guilty even though they did not crimes using various pressure means, beating to the loss consciousness and violation of human dignity. [...] In the cases of Lithuanian partizans their fight friends are basically always called "bandits", partizan units "bandit gangs". [...]
http://aidai.us/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=8237&Itemid=520


But the Soviets arranged with the Germans to take Lithuania in the Soviet sphere of influence.

And actually Smetona wanted to fight with the Soviets but the Lithuanian government didn't support this traitor, that's why Smetona fled from the country to the Third Reich and then to the USA.

The elections of the new parliament were made according to the Lithuanian laws and were confirmed by the Lithuanian Prime-minister.


Smetona didn't want to fight with Soviets or with Germans, stop lying.


In the summer of 1940, after the USSR presented an ultimatum to Lithuania, A. Smetona proposed armed resistance against the USSR. But with no approval of the major part of the government and the commander of the army, A. Smetona turned his duties over to Prime Minister A. Merkys, and on June 15 he and his family retreated secretly to Germany. After a few months he moved to Switzer land, to Bern. At the beginning of I941 he and his family came to the USA
http://www2.omnitel.net/ramunas/Lietuva/lt_government_presidents_smetona.shtml

Also, Smetona was one of the first leaders in Europe to notice the danger of Nazist Germany. He called Hitler "a madman".

Elections weren't according to Lithuanian laws:


Soviet representative Vladimir Dekanozov formed the new pro-Soviet puppet government, known as the People's Government. Justas Paleckis replaced Smetona as the acting President of Lithuania. The new government was a rubber stamp institution, carrying out orders from Moscow. The Fourth Seimas was disbanded and new show elections to the so-called People's Seimas were organized on July 14–15, 1940. With only Communist-approved candidates running, official results showed over 90% of voter turnout and support for the Communists. During its first session on July 21 the People's Seimas unanimously decided to convert Lithuania into the Lithuanian SSR and petition to join the Soviet Union. The petition was approved by the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union on August 3, which completed the formalization of the occupation.

[member]

Where the hell are mods.

I'm getting seriously angry that trolls are freely running around in this forum.

[sevruk]

Where the hell are mods.

I'm getting seriously angry that trolls are freely running around in this forum.

freedom of speech is a basic human right :D

[member]

freedom of speech is a basic human right :D

No, this forum has rules and this is trolling. This is isn't "just a different opinion. I don't call you troll for example, because I know opinions like yours exist. But giving quotes taken out of context and talking such nonsenic stuff ("Smetona was nazist", then at the same post "Smetona supported communists")... That is, only trollish spur could create such highly illogical posts that show absolutely no interest, just seek to provoke.

I can say honestly there is a whole gang of trolls that concentrate on attacking Lithuanians. There was even a troll who tried to attack my Samogitian roots.

And there is a person who admited personally that he controlls these puppet accounts used for trolling.

[sevruk]

no, this forum has rules and this is trolling. This is isn't "just a different opinion. I don't call you troll for example, because i know opinions like yours exist. But giving quotes taken out of context and talking such nonsenic stuff ("smetona was nazist", then at the same post "smetona supported communists")... That is, only trollish spur could create such highly illogical posts that show absolutely no interest, just seek to provoke.

I can say honestly there is a whole gang of trolls that concentrate on attacking lithuanians. There was even a troll who tried to attack my samogitian roots.

And there is a person who admited personally that he controlls these puppet accounts used for trolling.

да кому вы нафиг сдались, лабусы

[member]

I don't understand Russian.

[Hochmeister]

Touche, muzhik.

Ich verstehe nicht.


Troll

If you don't like somebody's opinion, he is a troll? Very democratic. http://tritroichki.narod.ru/smiles-colection/lis24.gif
http://tritroichki.narod.ru/smiles-colection/lis15.gif You can unmask my "delusions" with facts, if you have some. That's simple.


There are several reasons:
Unlike Finland who was neighbours only with one possible agressor, Lithuania had problems with Poland and Germany.

And who is a troll after that?

The Baltic States made a treaty with Germany about a mutual military aid in the 1930's. According to the treaty, the Baltic States were bonded to ask the German help if there would be a [Soviet?] treat on their border. As well as Germany had the right to occupy the Baltic States if there would appear a treat to the Reich (see: «Партитура Второй мировой». М.: «Вече», 2009).

[member]

Yeah, I don't liike your opinions, but as I said they are illogical and trollish.

[Anusiya]

The Baltic States made a treaty with Germany about a mutual military aid in the 1930's. According to the treaty, the Baltic States were bonded to ask the German help if there would be a [Soviet?] treat on their border. As well as Germany had the right to occupy the Baltic States if there would appear a treat to the Reich (see: «Партитура Второй мировой». М.: «Вече», 2009).

In other words, yes, you were their b*es. Not so much sovereign and independent states, but uncle Adolf's little smurflings :D
Lithuanians actually materialized many of their then masters' orders by attacking and burning to the ground numerous Belarussian villages and killing thousands of Russian POW's. From this one can conclude that it wasn't about resisting communist reforms but expanding and make the most out of it in the long run. It was a long-standing dispute lurking to materialize in the right time.

http://i.qkme.me/3qbnp6.jpg

Me no like him. But...LIKE A BOSS.

[Hochmeister]

No, this forum has rules and this is trolling.
But giving quotes taken out of context and talking such nonsenic stuff ("Smetona was nazist", then at the same post "Smetona supported communists")...


WTF? Where have I said that? Any proof?
Apparently, it is you who's trolling here.

Maybe I'm wrong with the number of the Lithuanian communists - I have to verify it (the Baltic States are a bit similar to me it's easy to confuse) - but that is not a reason for hysterics.

Good night and see you tomorrow.

[member]

Look at your wikipedia articles. You didn't even read them fully. Otherwise you wouldn't be so arrogant.

[member]

Anusiya, and what do you have to do with all this? You have no clue about the history of the region and you come here and talk shit as if you knew everything. Another troll.

I guess some Greeks don;t know wehere to spill their anger for the criticism they get for the state they are in... You know my cat also goes chasing my other cat when I punish him. Known behaviour.

[Anusiya]

Anusiya, and what do you have to do with all this? You have no clue about the history of the region and you come here and talk shit as if you knew everything. Another troll.

I guess some Greeks don;t know wehere to spill their anger for the criticism they get for the state they are in... You know my cat also goes chasing my other cat when I punish him. Known behaviour.

Yeah another troll, the German was right, the Russian was right, and seems the Greek is pretty much right too. 3-1 and the three are the trolls. :picard1:

[Hochmeister]

There are several reasons:
Lithuania had only one person who could be compared to Mannerheim, that person was Silvestras Žukauskas


Bla-bla-bla


Finland wasn't defeated judging from the number of killed Soviet soldiers


Finland was defeated. The Soviets could easily take Helsinki.


Even in Latvia communists had greater support because Latvian agricultural reform wasn't so drastic


I'm glad you are not rejecting the fact there was a number of Pro-Soviet forces in the Baltic States' society.


Before Smetona Lithuania had democtratically elected goverment. You quote clearly mentioned take over, that is, it was done without asking the nation. BUT it can not be compared to Nazist Russia or Soviet Union because unlike the wo mentioned it was authoritarian dictatorship. Only seevral countries in Euroope during interbellum were democtratic.


Smetona was a dictator. Lithuania was not a democracy. Fullstop.
Democratic Lithuania had been existed only 6 years before Smetona.


Historians have also discussed an exaggerated fear of communism[1] as a factor

And you tell me there were no Communists in Lithuania? :picard1:


When they could legally take part in Seimas election, they got whole 5 seats in the parliament (they were forbidden to take part in later elections):
The first Seimas of Lithuania - 5 communists out of 90 members.

Because of the fear? :rolleyes:


A. Smetona, though propagandizing nationalism, repudiated both Italian fascism and German National Socialism. He strove to create a unique form of governing for Lithuania, which, to his mind, would suit best the character of the nation and would foster most strongly the spiritual culture and welfare of the nation.

So what?


Smetona didn't want to fight with Soviets or with Germans, stop lying.

Quote:
In the summer of 1940, after the USSR presented an ultimatum to Lithuania, A. Smetona proposed armed resistance against the USSR. But with no approval of the major part of the government and the commander of the army, A. Smetona turned his duties over to Prime Minister A. Merkys, and on June 15 he and his family retreated secretly to Germany. After a few months he moved to Switzer land, to Bern. At the beginning of I941 he and his family came to the USA

I said: And actually Smetona wanted to fight with the Soviets but the Lithuanian government didn't support this traitor, that's why Smetona fled from the country to the Third Reich and then to the USA.
You said:[QUOTE]Smetona didn't want to fight with Soviets ... Smetona proposed armed resistance against the USSR. But with no approval of the major part of the government ... and ... he and his family retreated secretly to Germany.
You have confirmed my words, but then you called me a liar? :picard2: Don't be silly.
It's you who's is illogical here in your own posts.

[RussiaPrussia]

Lithuanians should pay us compensation for killing russians in ww2

[bella1407]

Lithuanians should pay us compensation for killing russians in ww2

agree!:p

[lI]

Lithuanians should pay us compensation for killing russians in ww2

Please enlighten me when exactly did Lithuanian Army enter Russia during the WWII? When did Lithuanian occupational government make mass deportations of Russian civilians to the uninhabitable parts of Siberia, leaving them there to labour to death deprived of food? You see, my memory fails me as I don't seem to be able to remember such things happening.

On the other hand, I do remember hearing about such atrocities being performed by Soviet Russians in Lithuania.






And you tell me there were no Communists in Lithuania? :picard1:So? How is that relevant to anything if the number of communists in Lithuania was absolutely minuscule? You may be confusing us with Estonia or even Finland for all that matters but the situation in Lithuania was very different because it was much more agricultural at that time and there simply wasn't enough factory workers who could have caused any real threat of communist revolution happening from within.