WHG = Cro-Magnons + EHG ?

[Scandal]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer#Research

WHGs were in turn a mix of EHGs and the Upper Paleolithic people (Cro-Magnon) of the Grotte du Bichon in Switzerland.
No source given though.

[Linebacker]

Nobody knows what makeup the Cro-Magnon actually had.

The samples we have that are "WHG" are of late Mesolithic men. There is a lot of time from the Upper Paleolithic to the Late Mesolithic. Long enough for WHG to be very different from early Cro-Magnon.

[vbnetkhio]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer#Research

No source given though.

That's a bit misleading.

the source is here, page 108:
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fnature19310/MediaObjects/41586_2016_BFnature19310_MOESM96_ESM.pdf
WHG is 93% Bichon, 7% EHG.

So Bichon was already basically WHG/Villabruna-like, and the later "proper WHGs" were just slightly EHG shifted.

This could be the migration which brought to r1b-V88 to WHGs.


This model is more informative:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/09/20/423079/F2.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

According to this WHG just formed by branching off from Goyet, it isn't a mix.

[PaleoEuropean]

Nobody knows what makeup the Cro-Magnon actually had.

The samples we have that are "WHG" are of late Mesolithic men. There is a lot of time from the Upper Paleolithic to the Late Mesolithic. Long enough for WHG to be very different from early Cro-Magnon.

I agree with this statement. WHG means more Meslothic-Neolithic. The WHG people bred with the C Asiatics before the Mesolithic so they would have some trace of EHG from those people I imagine.

[Linebacker]

I agree with this statement. WHG means more Meslothic-Neolithic. The WHG people bred with the C Asiatics before the Mesolithic so they would have some trace of EHG from those people I imagine.

C1 was most likely the most common haplogroup among Cro-Magnon.

Kostenki 14 and Sungir are the two Upper Paleolithic samples with identified haplogroups (but not full genome) and they are both C1.

[PaleoEuropean]

C1 was most likely the most common haplogroup among Cro-Magnon.

Kostenki 14 and Sungir are the two Upper Paleolithic samples with identified haplogroups (but not full genome) and they are both C1.

For sure, but they came from somewhere before Europe (they were here before haplogroup I if I remember correctly), they had to have come from Asia since they seem to be related to Archaic East Asian Groups like the Ainu.

[Scandal]

That's a bit misleading.

the source is here, page 108:
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fnature19310/MediaObjects/41586_2016_BFnature19310_MOESM96_ESM.pdf
WHG is 93% Bichon, 7% EHG.

So Bichon was already basically WHG/Villabruna-like, and the later "proper WHGs" were just slightly EHG shifted.

This could be the migration which brought to r1b-V88 to WHGs.


This model is more informative:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2018/09/20/423079/F2.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

According to this WHG just formed by branching off from Goyet, it isn't a mix.

So La Brana and Loscbour men already had EHG admix?

[vbnetkhio]

So La Brana and Loscbour men already had EHG admix?

yes, but a very small amount.

[Scandal]

yes, but a very small amount.

This spreadsheet is wrong then? It shows 0% ANE for both. https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?155723-K8-All-Populations-Spreadsheet

[vbnetkhio]

This spreadsheet is wrong then? It shows 0% ANE for both. https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?155723-K8-All-Populations-Spreadsheet

that seems to be unsupervised admixture? It's not very wrong, it's just more focused on modern populations. The WHG which contributed to later populations was Loschbour-like, so it gets detected as 100% WHG.

[Zoro]

yes, but a very small amount.

Not really that small. Admixture program only gives relative amounts of EHG, E Asian and Siberian relative to other populations. So if those things are already part of substructure Admixture program is not good.

To get absolute amounts of EHG or ANE statistical tools need to be used. In the Harvard Paleolithic Caucasus paper they modeled La Brana with about 18% AG3 which is mostly ANE.

For ex you can see from this qpAdm table in the paper

CHG = 8% E Asian related + 20% ANE. So when I tell people that Armenians and Georgians and SE Europeans already have this much E Asian and ANE on a prorated basis just from CHG they don't get it.

Similarly their table shows

Iran-N = 11% E/S Eurasian + 20% ANE. Thus Iranics even without Steppe-IA or Turkic already have E/S Eurasian + ANE


https://i.imgur.com/wSx89LI.jpg


You can see how much ANE various WHGs have from this chart from the paper based on qpAdm

https://i.imgur.com/9czox9h.png

[Zoro]

The reason qpAdm in above table shows EHG with 3% Han related is that EHG has about 70% ANE related and Ancient North Siberians received about 30% Ancient E Eurasian Tiyanuan related about 35kya which is after split between E and W Eurasian lineages

[Zanzibar]

The reason qpAdm in above table shows EHG with 3% Han related is that EHG has about 70% ANE related and Ancient North Siberians received about 30% Ancient E Eurasian Tiyanuan related about 35kya which is after split between E and W Eurasian lineages

Can you do qpAdms on how much E and W Eurasian Native Americans have on average?

[Scandal]

Not really that small. Admixture program only gives relative amounts of EHG, E Asian and Siberian relative to other populations. So if those things are already part of substructure Admixture program is not good.

To get absolute amounts of EHG or ANE statistical tools need to be used. In the Harvard Paleolithic Caucasus paper they modeled La Brana with about 18% AG3 which is mostly ANE.
....................

From where did La Brana and Loschbour have genes for blue eyes? From their Cro-magnon or their EHG ancestry? Some people say they were blue eyed because they had EHG ancestry.

[Dick]

From where did La Brana and Loschbour have genes for blue eyes? From their Cro-magnon or their EHG ancestry? Some people say they were blue eyed because they had EHG ancestry, but there are also studies indicating EHG and Yamnaya had brown eyes.

I might be wrong but I'm guessing they were somewhat heavily inbred, there were only a few thousand in Scandinavia 10,000 years ago so traits like having predominately blue eyes in their tribe would've been common due to keeping it in the family

[vbnetkhio]

To get absolute amounts of EHG or ANE statistical tools need to be used.


those models on page 108 aren't qpadm models?