Are Trans and East Mediterranids the same?

[LorenzoSpitaleri]

They look very similar. Both seem like an intermediate of Eurafricanid and Gracile Med. Many greeks, italians and other southern europeans share the same neolithic mediterranean haplogroup E1b1b that North Africans have.

https://i.imgur.com/BYuVzaS.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/tds87b9.jpg

I found a map somewhere which classified East Med as the proper form of South Med.

https://i.imgur.com/QP41cKb.jpg

"Many reported typical, gracile Mediterranids (or East Mediterranids, because they are higher-skulled) from North Africa (Coon, 1939; Peters, 1940; Fischer, 1943; Heberer et al. 1969)" on the Transmed description.

Jason Cerbone, of italian descent. Classified as East Med, looks transmediterranid imo.
https://i.imgur.com/eOnalKE.png
https://i.imgur.com/iEhacxx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/tRh95UT.jpg

Luigi di Maio, gracilised transmediterranid.
https://i.imgur.com/ACNOT1V.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3F5Xr10.png

[lustermoo]

Is transmed not just someone who passes all across the Mediterranid transitionally?


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[Avgvstvs]

Is transmed not just someone who passes all across the Mediterranid transitionally?


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkNo, just a transexual person of Med phenotype.

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[lustermoo]

No, just a transexual person of Med phenotype.

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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210309/44a6ecf4cfe48733313432bccf419c6d.jpg


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[LorenzoSpitaleri]

Is transmed not just someone who passes all across the Mediterranid transitionally?


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Not sure about the origin of the term. Perhaps because East Mediterranid and South Mediterranid aren't exclusive to East and South respectively, therefore making it a phenotype that transitions to multiple areas as you said. Could also be a blend of the words "Trans-Saharid" and "Mediterranean", as one of the other names for the type is "Saharid".

[Oliver109]

I imagine the Med type is in general little altered between Portugal and S Asia though heavy mixture with other elements means that the populations on the whole look different in every country, Luigi Di Maio could even pass in N India imo which goes to show that the differences in Med types are not that vast.

[Luso]

I imagine the Med type is in general little altered between Portugal and S Asia though heavy mixture with other elements means that the populations on the whole look different in every country, Luigi Di Maio could even pass in N India imo which goes to show that the differences in Med types are not that vast.

Med types, even the most southern types, are very rare and still distinct from south asia.

[LorenzoSpitaleri]

I imagine the Med type is in general little altered between Portugal and S Asia though heavy mixture with other elements means that the populations on the whole look different in every country, Luigi Di Maio could even pass in N India imo which goes to show that the differences in Med types are not that vast.

I disagree, he could pass as typical in North Africa, now indids, like mediterranids and orientalids are all mediterranoid, which does validate your argument to a certain extent but in general an atlanto-mediterranid won't pass in India and a North Indid won't pass in Spain.

[Oliver109]

I disagree, he could pass as typical in North Africa, now indids, like mediterranids and orientalids are all mediterranoid, which does validate your argument to a certain extent but in general an atlanto-mediterranid won't pass in India and a North Indid won't pass in Spain.

That is because Atlanto Med's are supposed to be more robust i think, N Indid's especially in the higher castes and among Sikh's often look almost southern Euro, perhaps the eye and nose area is slightly different but they do not differ radically if their Dravidian mixture is absent, Luigi di Maio would not look out of place in a Indian part of London imo.

[lustermoo]

Not sure about the origin of the term. Perhaps because East Mediterranid and South Mediterranid aren't exclusive to East and South respectively, therefore making it a phenotype that transitions to multiple areas as you said. Could also be a blend of the words "Trans-Saharid" and "Mediterranean", as one of the other names for the type is "Saharid".

I think it’s the former moreso because Saharid is a brown skinned caucasoid type of North Africa

Something like https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210309/1bbc6dca028d64d60c19353b342c9607.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210309/4f9fe917ddb63f4af8f0814acfe4417b.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210309/7b105538160282668bdb1c35b846eb5c.jpg


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[placebo]

east meds mostly in greece, turkey and levant. most similar phenotype to east med is pontid imo but with some differences and east meds generally dolicephalic.

[LorenzoSpitaleri]

I think it’s the former moreso because Saharid is a brown skinned caucasoid type of North Africa

Something like https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210309/1bbc6dca028d64d60c19353b342c9607.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210309/4f9fe917ddb63f4af8f0814acfe4417b.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210309/7b105538160282668bdb1c35b846eb5c.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkI see Saharid as the more typical variety of Transmediterranid in N. Africa which usually has mild Arabid or Ethiopid influence and therefore a slightly swarthier type than the conventional Transmediterranid. Likewise Libyid would be the intermediate of Arabid and Transmed. On the other hand East Med could be a slightly more robust and dolichocephalic variety due to iranid, or higher atlanto-mediterranid influence. But all would fall under the Trans Mediterranid category.

[LorenzoSpitaleri]

east meds mostly in greece, turkey and levant. most similar phenotype to east med is pontid imo but with some differences and east meds generally dolicephalic.

Pontid is far more different imo.

[reboun]

Pontid is far more different imo.

How?

[LorenzoSpitaleri]

How?Taller, different cranial index as you said, face isn't as oval-shaped and the jaw area is a bit more robust. By pictures of the phenotypes next to eachother they may look similar because in the end both are mediterranid types but a Pontid person will always be distinct from an east-transmed, and other mediterranids in general.

[LorenzoSpitaleri]

"Trans-Med" is an intermediate between Atlanto and Gracile-Med, so nope.
That is just a way to describe the general appearance, being neither as robust nor soft, tall or short as the other med types, doesn't necessarily have to be a mix of the two. And as I mentioned the Transmediterranid was identified in North Africa initially as what it was considered to be an East Mediterranid.

[LorenzoSpitaleri]

I am inclined to believe a good amount of the North Africans classified as Transmediterranid are often Libyids instead. At least that is the impression I have.

[PaleoEuropean]

I think Transmed is just more gracile and alpine influenced and East Med is a bit more Dinaric and chiseled face wise.

[PaleoEuropean]

I am inclined to believe a good amount of the North Africans classified as Transmediterranid are often Libyids instead. At least that is the impression I have.

I wouldn't call the majority of any North African countries are trans med. Probably just gracile semitic types/similar types. A lot of people don't look to deep when classifying.

[lustermoo]

I wouldn't call the majority of any North African countries are trans med. Probably just gracile semitic types/similar types. A lot of people don't look to deep when classifying.

Yep, Orientalid, Berberid , Saharid, it’s usually just this


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[PaleoEuropean]

Yep, Orientalid, Berberid , Saharid, it’s usually just this


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I think the similarity comes from the Cro-magnoid input in both, which makes a lot of people look similar but not the same.

[jfgh676]

Trans mediterranid is coastal northern moroccan,algerian,tunisian and to a certain extent egypt. east med is Levantine majority pheno although i have seen lybian and egyptian east meds too

[LorenzoSpitaleri]

I think Transmed is just more gracile and alpine influenced and East Med is a bit more Dinaric and chiseled face wise.Nah that would make Transmediterranids look more like African Alpinoids. TransMed is strictly intermediate of Gracile and Atlanto-Med in terms of features (possibly but not necessarily admixture of the two types), being a bit softer, cranium not as dolichocephalic... Meanwhile EastMed would lean slightly more to Atlanto-Mediterranid and possibly even Pontic in some aspects, having slightly more robust features and dolichocephaly (from A.M) but otherwise both are extremely similar types, to the point that I would believe EastMed to be nothing more than a variety of TransMed.

[LorenzoSpitaleri]

Trans mediterranid is coastal northern moroccan,algerian,tunisian and to a certain extent egypt. east med is Levantine majority pheno although i have seen lybian and egyptian east meds tooA good amount of people in those areas are arabid-admixed and therefore Libyid. Transmediterranid more or less covers the areas of EastMed although in partial form only, which could imply that the T.M type is only typical admixed with surrounding phenotypes from the area (Pontid, AM, Iranid, etc).
East Med range:
https://i.imgur.com/AoDO738.jpg
Trans Med range:
https://i.imgur.com/QBibHtx.jpg

I have seen people argue that East Med isn't a real proper phenotype, but a collection of different phenotypes from the area. I think some have said it is the result AtlantoMed-Iranid intermediate but I disagree as the proper result of that would be Robust Iranid.

[jfgh676]

A good amount of people in those areas are arabid-admixed and therefore Libyid. Transmediterranid more or less covers the areas of EastMed although in partial form only, which could imply that the T.M type is only typical admixed with surrounding phenotypes from the area (Pontid, AM, Iranid, etc).
East Med range:
https://i.imgur.com/AoDO738.jpg
Trans Med range:
https://i.imgur.com/QBibHtx.jpg

I have seen people argue that East Med isn't a real proper phenotype, but a collection of different phenotypes from the area. I think some have said it is the result AtlantoMed-Iranid intermediate but I disagree as the proper result of that would be Robust Iranid.

Nope. Lybid is a phenotype present mainly in the interior steppes of north africa,not the main pheno in the coastal north of morocco,algeria,and tunis. Arabid phenotypical is almost non-existent in western part of north africa,you will only see targid,berberid or saharid down south. Transmediterranid is not even that present in sicily or greece.


Possibly a gracilised Eurafricanid that spread west through ancient migrations that lasted up to Antiquity (e.g. Phoenicians). Today common in North Africa from Morocco to Egypt with high concentrations in Tunisia and Algeria. Also in Western Arabia and Southern Iberia, sometimes Sicily, Sardinia, Canary Islands, and other parts of Southern Europe. Light, sometimes medium (yellowish) brown skin, straight to curly brown/black hair, often curlier than in European Mediterranids. Medium height, mesoskelic, ectomorph. Dolicho- mesocephalic,

Were clearly not talking about italians or greeks here
as for east-med its a real phenotype. Lebanese people are not arabids,nor a mix of pontid and atlantomeds

[LorenzoSpitaleri]

Nope. Lybid is a phenotype present mainly in the interior steppes of north africa,not the main pheno in the coastal north of morocco,algeria,and tunis. Arabid phenotypical is almost non-existent in western part of north africa,you will only see targid,berberid or saharid down south. Transmediterranid is not even that present in sicily or greece.



Were clearly not talking about italians or greeks here
as for east-med its a real phenotype. Lebanese people are not arabids,nor a mix of pontid and atlantomeds
I will correct myself on the fact many berbers away from the eastern part do look less arab-mixed, I've met berbers who look more european than some italians easily, from the coasts mainly. Btw greeks and italians can have all of those features described. Even though the map describes its incidence in Southern Europe as low, that is due to admixture from other phenotypes probably. That being said the maps aren't always 100% accurate but more of an estimate, for example i've seen Sudanid and Siwa phenotypes on the maps having a low incidence on Iberia which is as ridiculous as it gets.

[jfgh676]

I will correct myself on the fact many berbers away from the eastern part do look less arab-mixed, I've met berbers who look more european than some italians easily, from the coasts mainly. Btw greeks and italians can have all of those features described. Even though the map describes its incidence in Southern Europe as low, that is due to admixture from other phenotypes probably. That being said the maps aren't always 100% accurate but more of an estimate, for example i've seen Sudanid and Siwa phenotypes on the maps having a low incidence on Iberia which is as ridiculous as it gets.

Tbh People exaggerate sicily,greece ... Dark phenotypes are not rampant and most of the time its going to be east-med influence on the phenotype and it also shows up in the genetics of the region

[jfgh676]

I will correct myself on the fact many berbers away from the eastern part do look less arab-mixed, I've met berbers who look more european than some italians easily, from the coasts mainly. Btw greeks and italians can have all of those features described. Even though the map describes its incidence in Southern Europe as low, that is due to admixture from other phenotypes probably. That being said the maps aren't always 100% accurate but more of an estimate, for example i've seen Sudanid and Siwa phenotypes on the maps having a low incidence on Iberia which is as ridiculous as it gets.

Tbh People exaggerate sicily,greece ... Dark phenotypes are not rampant and most of the time its going to be east-med influence on the phenotype and it also shows up in the genetics of the region. Also i wouldnt put much thought on their maps,even the composites are not even accurate really for south med types.

[Rafael Passoni]

My Brother has this classification brother is Trans Mediterranid.

[placebo]

Pontid is far more different imo.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/QuBgmhZ8c5vmHO2HykUVfM10sul2Dar2SXsbSLiTPqEJwe0kNK JHD5raXJ4MykGMSOJUtICsyRBY5zGcciqFPwkazFDxyAvXSeZD oEQ3_O_MPt3X_QKCrg
https://i.sozcu.com.tr/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/iecrop/kadir-dogulu_16_9_1546931790.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OwFPdeEVwMs/maxresdefault.jpg

he's east med. pure form not oriental or taurid inflluenced. levant east meds generally oriental influenced but turkey (somes have taurid influence) and greece east meds generally pure.

https://i.imgur.com/XMjRxDj.jpeg
https://gmsrp.cachefly.net/images/18/10/25/8436d7fea6a900f93be1d13f8c646539/960.jpg

i don't know much about trans med but i googled it and i saw these photos. they don't look like much imo.

[LorenzoSpitaleri]

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/QuBgmhZ8c5vmHO2HykUVfM10sul2Dar2SXsbSLiTPqEJwe0kNK JHD5raXJ4MykGMSOJUtICsyRBY5zGcciqFPwkazFDxyAvXSeZD oEQ3_O_MPt3X_QKCrg
https://i.sozcu.com.tr/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/iecrop/kadir-dogulu_16_9_1546931790.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OwFPdeEVwMs/maxresdefault.jpg

he's east med. pure form not oriental or taurid inflluenced. levant east meds generally oriental influenced but turkey (somes have taurid influence) and greece east meds generally pure.

https://i.imgur.com/XMjRxDj.jpeg
https://gmsrp.cachefly.net/images/18/10/25/8436d7fea6a900f93be1d13f8c646539/960.jpg

i don't know much about trans med but i googled it and i saw these photos. they don't look like much imo.
1st transmed example with those features... He could be Atlanto Med before Trans, maybe some armenoid influence in the eyes, also too robust for the type in general. 2nd transmed guy is actually Libyid as I said, many are misclassified.

[LorenzoSpitaleri]

In the original description of East Med it also mentioned how the European variety is often mixed with surrounding phenotypes.

[Immanenz]

1st transmed example with those features... He could be Atlanto Med before Trans, maybe some armenoid influence in the eyes, also too robust for the type in general. 2nd transmed guy is actually Libyid as I said, many are misclassified.

reading this i get anthropological eye cancer. those terms are not that legit really and were inveted post Coon by some anthorpologists like Lundmann. Why not stick to common sense like someone looks Turkish, Greek, North African, Israeli, Syrian etc. rather than coming with something like "Lybid" but is actually metrically just Med as well.
Btw from all those single shot angles you cannot judge any craniometrical differences, for example Busquets is much more long faced and could be higher headed than the first so called TransMed guy.

[LorenzoSpitaleri]

reading this i get anthropological eye cancer. those terms are not that legit really and were inveted post Coon by some anthorpologists like Lundmann. Why not stick to common sense like someone looks Turkish, Greek, North African, Israeli, Syrian etc. rather than coming with something like "Lybid" but is actually metrically just Med as well.
Btw from all those single shot angles you cannot judge any craniometrical differences, for example Busquets is much more long faced and could be higher headed than the first so called TransMed guy.Well if you wanna go as far back as Coon then there is not even a distinction from Oriental to Mediterranean so fuck it all right?

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[Chaos One]

Well, there's a difference between a "Med looking" Moroccan x "Med looking" Lebanese or Turkish.

Btw, Targid is a good example how things aren't the same, giving the mix itself. A East Med/Orientalid (Arabid either) mix would not give the same looking.

[Immanenz]

Well if you wanna go as far back as Coon then there is not even a distinction from Oriental to Mediterranean so fuck it all right?

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No, but why jsut not say- he looks Lybian isntead of calling soemone Lybid, but knowing nothing about this type in metrical perspective (obvious many will disagree with calling him Lybian looking, as this is very subjective). as i said Busquets and the other TransMEd guy are metrically different, but pass more or less in the same countries.

There is a distinction of metrical matter and there is what you look/where you pass.

[LorenzoSpitaleri]

No, but why jsut not say- he looks Lybian isntead of calling soemone Lybid, but knowing nothing about this type in metrical perspective (obvious many will disagree with calling him Lybian looking, as this is very subjective). as i said Busquets and the other TransMEd guy are metrically different, but pass more or less in the same countries.

There is a distinction of metrical matter and there is what you look/where you pass.
I am not talking about whether or not they pass in Libya, you could be Berberid and be from Libya (ex: Gaddafi) that doesn't matter, Libyid is obviously a transition from Mediterranid to Orientalid and it's related to Targid which is also explicitely a transitional type, with the main difference Targid has more Berberid or Eurafricanid-like features, while Libyid is more gracilised facially and similar to Transmediterranid overall, extremely similar types. In my hypothesis Libyid belongs as a subtype of Transmediterranid much like East Mediterranid does.

[Jon96]

That is because Atlanto Med's are supposed to be more robust i think, N Indid's especially in the higher castes and among Sikh's often look almost southern Euro, perhaps the eye and nose area is slightly different but they do not differ radically if their Dravidian mixture is absent, Luigi di Maio would not look out of place in a Indian part of London imo.

Sikhs never look almost South Euro LOL. No South Asian group looks "almost South Euro". This is including Sikhs in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

[Jon96]

Med types, even the most southern types, are very rare and still distinct from south asia.

I agree lol.

I remember when Mortimer once said that people on TA guess every swarthy person as Indian. I think he may have been right.

When I posted Davide Greco, people guessed him as South Asian when he really doesn't look SA lol.

[Immanenz]

I am not talking about whether or not they pass in Libya, you could be Berberid and be from Libya (ex: Gaddafi) that doesn't matter, Libyid is obviously a transition from Mediterranid to Orientalid and it's related to Targid which is also explicitely a transitional type, with the main difference Targid has more Berberid or Eurafricanid-like features, while Libyid is more gracilised facially and similar to Transmediterranid overall, extremely similar types. In my hypothesis Libyid belongs as a subtype of Transmediterranid much like East Mediterranid does.

what are your hypothesises? and much more important- what are your evidences/ sources?

So explain why Busquets is Lybid metrically, please? ITs should be logical that popuations will have more Trans_Med like individuals where there is more Farmer components, while more Arabid/ Orientalid where those components are stronger in the genetical sense.

[LorenzoSpitaleri]

Nose is more convex than typical for Transmediterranid, pigmentation is not a factor, skull meso-dolichocephalic which is closer to Transmed. All the other features correlate to both Transmed and libyid. Therefore, he is physically either a transmed-libyid intermediate or a mildly dinaricised transmediterranid.

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[Immanenz]

Nose is more convex than typical for Transmediterranid, pigmentation is not a factor, skull meso-dolichocephalic which is closer to Transmed. All the other features correlate to both Transmed and libyid. Therefore, he is physically either a transmed-libyid intermediate or a mildly dinaricised transmediterranid.

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Actually seen a lot of Berbers with convex noses. A lot of untelated types have convex noses btw... his isnt that much anyway though.
Also between doli and meso - you cannot measure it only by looking on a photo

[lustermoo]

Actually seen a lot of Berbers with convex noses. A lot of untelated types have convex noses btw... his isnt that much anyway though.
Also between doli and meso - you cannot measure it only by looking on a photo, thats also an amateur mistake

Yes, especially Kabyle berbers are full of convex noses


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[LorenzoSpitaleri]

Yes, especially Kabyle berbers are full of convex noses


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That's the point though. Convex noses can appear all the way into Europe due to dinaric, armenian, assyrian (jewish) or neanderthal influence, but in other types should be considered atypical. Now, which gene exists in North Africa that would make it common for convex noses to exist? In Spain surely we can point out the fact Dinaric/Basque people exist and rule out the possibility of Oriental influence on a guy like Busquets, but North Africa? There's no dinaric or armenian influence there, and i'm not even trying to shame berbers for it because to me Libyid resembles mediterraneans way more than it has been considered, also knowing the fact this type has existed before the arabization of N. Africa, the differences are so mild it wouldn't be nothing more than a variation of Transmediterranid (Ex: Paleo-Atlantid having the Tydal variant).

[Immanenz]

That's the point though. Convex noses .

Also Cm types can have convex noses- the Oberkasselid had a beakish nose, seems Mechta Afalou had it too

And Dinarids are brachycephalized Meds according to some.

Lybians resembles Euro Meds sometimes because they have more Farmer then perhabs other West Asians

[lustermoo]

That's the point though. Convex noses can appear all the way into Europe due to dinaric, armenian, assyrian (jewish) or neanderthal influence, but in other types should be considered atypical. Now, which gene exists in North Africa that would make it common for convex noses to exist? In Spain surely we can point out the fact Dinaric/Basque people exist and rule out the possibility of Oriental influence on a guy like Busquets, but North Africa? There's no dinaric or armenian influence there, and i'm not even trying to shame berbers for it because to me Libyid resembles mediterraneans way more than it has been considered, also knowing the fact this type has existed before the arabization of N. Africa, the differences are so mild it wouldn't be nothing more than a variation of Transmediterranid (Ex: Paleo-Atlantid having the Tydal variant).

Libyid is more similar to Orientalid than anything for me.


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[Immanenz]

Libyid is more similar to Orientalid than anything for me.


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Out of curiosity - can you post some examples?

[Immanenz]

Double

[lustermoo]

Out of curiosity - can you post some examples?

I have so many examples on a computer I can’t access until Friday, but I’ll try to see what I have right now


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[lustermoo]

Out of curiosity - can you post some examples?

For now I’m limited but something like this?
https://imgur.com/a/tG60ktX

Tall, brown, long-ish face, big mouth, prominent nose


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[LorenzoSpitaleri]

For now I’m limited but something like this?
https://imgur.com/a/tG60ktX

Tall, brown, long-ish face, big mouth, prominent nose


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkExcept for the long face, those are basically the only differences it has with Transmediterranid.

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[LorenzoSpitaleri]

I think Moroccan player Fayçal Fajr could be almost textbook Libyid, lacks the big lips but every other feature seems in place.
https://i.imgur.com/CfYB2cz.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dJyLFdp.png
https://i.imgur.com/Lq5TFH2.jpg

This man who posted his face before, has the lips, however looks more like Transmediterranid + Berberid + West Ethiopid influence.
https://i.imgur.com/VAqMGXP.png
https://i.imgur.com/L3VVpTg.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/TAsCogU.png

Both look extremely typical for North Africa.

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