Ethnic and national K13 averages of Europeans [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

Dunai

03-11-2021, 03:27 PM

I created this thread for discussion purposes and I will only focus on those European ethnicities and nationalities which already have a country, but also those larger ethnicities without a country but which have self-government. In the source I won't include European regional averages, nor averages of smaller ethnicities (which number under half-a-million), so we could see a somewhat larger picture about these people rather than a convoluted one. I will use 0.25X ADC by default, and only in those cases I will use 0X ADC where the distance gets rather big with 0.25X ADC.

Let's see Northern Europeans first:

Distance to: English
1.41894327 Welsh
2.54277408 Dutch
2.91815010 Scottish
3.89059121 Irish
5.33463213 Icelandic
6.31355684 Belgian
6.49622198 Danish
6.79029454 Norwegian
6.83785785 Afrikaner
8.79047780 German

Target: English
Distance: 0.2790% / 0.27904704 | ADC: 0.25x RC
68.6 Welsh
28.3 Dutch
3.1 Swiss_Italian

Distance to: Irish
1.37255237 Scottish
2.69542204 Welsh
3.89059121 English
4.69804215 Icelandic
5.29907539 Dutch
6.61496788 Norwegian
6.81617195 Danish
9.97776027 Belgian
10.02400120 Swedish
10.24851209 Afrikaner

Target: Irish
Distance: 1.3072% / 1.30723997 | ADC: 0.25x RC
98.6 Scottish
1.4 Basque

Distance to: Scottish
1.37255237 Irish
2.03091113 Welsh
2.91815010 English
4.18283397 Icelandic
4.19577168 Dutch
6.08152119 Norwegian
6.18532942 Danish
8.93813180 Belgian
9.31637805 Swedish
9.32872446 Afrikaner

Target: Scottish
Distance: 0.6179% / 0.61790845 | ADC: 0.25x RC
77.4 Irish
12.4 Icelandic
10.2 Belgian

Distance to: Welsh
1.41894327 English
2.03091113 Scottish
2.69542204 Irish
3.57263208 Dutch
5.16998066 Icelandic
6.72390512 Danish
6.83583938 Norwegian
7.47704487 Belgian
7.97801354 Afrikaner
9.43061504 Swedish

Target: Welsh
Distance: 0.4228% / 0.42282645 | ADC: 0.25x RC
64.6 English
33.8 Irish
1.6 Basque

Distance to: Norwegian
1.18978990 Danish
2.14639232 Icelandic
4.32578317 Swedish
5.28251834 Dutch
6.08152119 Scottish
6.61496788 Irish
6.79029454 English
6.83583938 Welsh
10.53813076 German
11.35940139 Afrikaner

Target: Norwegian
Distance: 0.9665% / 0.96649941 | ADC: 0.25x RC
65.1 Danish
33.8 Icelandic
1.1 Finnish

Distance to: Danish
1.18978990 Norwegian
2.55984375 Icelandic
3.52420204 Swedish
4.77388730 Dutch
6.18532942 Scottish
6.49622198 English
6.72390512 Welsh
6.81617195 Irish
9.88324845 German
10.70231751 Afrikaner

Target: Danish
Distance: 0.4900% / 0.49000612 | ADC: 0.25x RC
66.5 Norwegian
24.1 Swedish
9.4 English

Distance to: Swedish
3.52420204 Danish
4.32578317 Norwegian
5.85795186 Icelandic
6.64689401 Dutch
8.86468838 English
9.23797597 German
9.31637805 Scottish
9.43061504 Welsh
10.02400120 Irish
11.12849496 Afrikaner

Target: Swedish
Distance: 1.2999% / 1.29990566 | ADC: 0.25x RC
88.4 Danish
5.9 Belorussian
4.6 Finnish
1.1 Estonian

Distance to: Finnish
5.07936020 Estonian
9.31302314 Belorussian
10.22933038 Russian
10.56316714 Lithuanian
10.71572209 Polish
13.12278172 Ukrainian
14.15416546 Latvian
16.29898156 Czech
17.36776612 Slovak
20.67285902 Slovenian

Target: Finnish
Distance: 2.8890% / 2.88899589
89.0 Estonian
7.3 Norwegian
3.7 Yakut

Distance to: Icelandic
2.14639232 Norwegian
2.55984375 Danish
4.18283397 Scottish
4.31930550 Dutch
4.69804215 Irish
5.16998066 Welsh
5.33463213 English
5.85795186 Swedish
10.38906156 German
10.49192070 Afrikaner

Target: Icelandic
Distance: 0.5959% / 0.59593187 | ADC: 0.25x RC
70.1 Norwegian
29.0 Irish
0.9 Dargin

Dunai

03-11-2021, 03:33 PM

Eastern Europeans:

Distance to: Russian
5.53960287 Ukrainian
6.01293605 Belorussian
6.91896669 Polish
8.47573596 Lithuanian
8.83439302 Estonian
10.22933038 Finnish
12.16157884 Latvian
13.86145375 Slovak
14.54394719 Czech
17.46237384 Slovenian

Target: Russian
Distance: 0.9774% / 0.97736020 | ADC: 0.25x RC
28.7 Ukrainian
24.5 Lithuanian
23.2 Polish
18.4 Chuvash
5.2 Estonian

Distance to: Ukrainian
4.86716550 Polish
5.53960287 Russian
6.12787076 Belorussian
9.93638264 Slovak
10.67745756 Lithuanian
11.17184855 Czech
11.44517802 Estonian
13.12278172 Finnish
13.43084882 Slovenian
14.64530300 Croat

Target: Ukrainian
Distance: 0.5415% / 0.54145802 | ADC: 0.25x RC
35.6 Bosniak
33.0 Latvian
15.1 Russian
13.3 Polish
3.0 Belorussian

Distance to: Polish
4.86716550 Ukrainian
5.48327457 Belorussian
6.91896669 Russian
8.76454220 Estonian
9.58539514 Lithuanian
9.73393548 Czech
9.75412733 Slovak
10.71572209 Finnish
13.39238590 Slovenian
14.58739524 Latvian

Target: Polish
Distance: 1.2959% / 1.29592734 | ADC: 0.25x RC
44.4 Lithuanian
44.0 Czech
11.6 Ukrainian

Distance to: Czech
2.98477805 Slovak
4.93583833 Slovenian
6.89277883 Hungarian
8.67870958 Austrian
9.03887714 Croat
9.73393548 Polish
11.17184855 Ukrainian
12.76117158 Bosniak
13.39484229 German
14.15484369 Belorussian

Target: Czech
Distance: 0.5150% / 0.51498131 | ADC: 0.25x RC
77.2 Slovak
14.6 Swedish
7.6 Polish
0.6 Estonian

Distance to: Hungarian
2.55172491 Slovenian
3.16545415 Croat
5.47570087 Slovak
6.89277883 Czech
6.92676692 Bosniak
7.73963823 Austrian
8.77619508 Moldovan
8.96492052 Serb
12.68648493 Montenegrin
12.77186361 Romanian

Target: Hungarian
Distance: 0.2951% / 0.29505686 | ADC: 0.25x RC
48.8 Croat
39.5 Slovenian
7.8 Afrikaner
2.8 Bashkir
1.1 Austrian

Distance to: Slovak
2.98477805 Czech
3.76629792 Slovenian
5.47570087 Hungarian
6.84653197 Croat
9.75412733 Polish
9.93076533 Austrian
9.93638264 Ukrainian
10.28262612 Bosniak
12.37111555 Moldovan
13.34555731 Serb

Target: Slovak
Distance: 0.4547% / 0.45467921 | ADC: 0.25x RC
32.7 Czech
29.4 Slovenian
20.7 Ukrainian
17.2 Hungarian

Distance to: Belorussian
5.48327457 Polish
5.84439047 Lithuanian
6.01293605 Russian
6.12787076 Ukrainian
6.65614753 Estonian
9.31302314 Finnish
10.39410410 Latvian
14.02591530 Slovak
14.15484369 Czech
17.61689814 Slovenian

Target: Belorussian
Distance: 1.7801% / 1.78006330 | ADC: 0.25x RC
41.6 Lithuanian
30.4 Estonian
23.5 Ukrainian
3.3 Saudi
1.2 Polish

Distance to: Lithuanian
5.26434231 Latvian
5.84439047 Belorussian
6.23913456 Estonian
8.47573596 Russian
9.58539514 Polish
10.56316714 Finnish
10.67745756 Ukrainian
19.10555678 Czech
19.12959487 Slovak
22.77854253 Slovenian

Target: Lithuanian
Distance: 1.0619% / 1.06187720 | ADC: 0.25x RC
59.4 Latvian
27.5 Polish
13.1 Estonian

Distance to: Estonian
5.07936020 Finnish
6.23913456 Lithuanian
6.65614753 Belorussian
8.76454220 Polish
8.83439302 Russian
10.24887799 Latvian
11.44517802 Ukrainian
16.62020758 Czech
17.40380993 Slovak
20.92674365 Slovenian

Target: Estonian
Distance: 1.7463% / 1.74634351 | ADC: 0.25x RC
49.8 Lithuanian
45.2 Finnish
5.0 Swedish

Distance to: Latvian
5.26434231 Lithuanian
10.24887799 Estonian
10.39410410 Belorussian
12.16157884 Russian
14.15416546 Finnish
14.58739524 Polish
14.88763245 Ukrainian
23.96933249 Slovak
24.13461829 Czech
27.58156087 Slovenian

Target: Latvian
Distance: 5.2643% / 5.26434231
100.0 Lithuanian

Dunai

03-11-2021, 03:35 PM

Southeastern Europeans:

Distance to: Romanian
1.92010416 Montenegrin
3.52211584 Bulgarian
4.44586325 Serb
6.28444906 Moldovan
7.11567987 North_Macedonian
7.91445513 Bosniak
10.74496161 Croat
11.74313416 Albanian
12.77186361 Hungarian
13.97282720 Greek

Target: Romanian
Distance: 0.2490% / 0.24897732 | ADC: 0.25x RC
36.3 Bulgarian
33.7 Serb
28.2 Montenegrin
1.8 Uzbeki

Distance to: Croat
3.16545415 Hungarian
3.99929994 Bosniak
4.57471311 Slovenian
6.12621417 Moldovan
6.55004580 Serb
6.84653197 Slovak
9.03887714 Czech
10.46030114 Austrian
10.74496161 Romanian
10.85993554 Montenegrin

Target: Croat
Distance: 0.3784% / 0.37842955 | ADC: 0.25x RC
51.0 Bosniak
37.9 Slovenian
11.1 Hungarian

Distance to: Serb
3.11528490 Moldovan
3.82602927 Bosniak
4.44586325 Romanian
4.84979381 Montenegrin
6.55004580 Croat
7.79798692 Bulgarian
8.96492052 Hungarian
10.84215385 Slovenian
11.19554376 North_Macedonian
13.34555731 Slovak

Target: Serb
Distance: 0.5134% / 0.51344673 | ADC: 0.25x RC
60.7 Bosniak
33.2 Montenegrin
3.9 Moldovan
2.2 Sardinian

Distance to: Albanian
4.01391330 Greek
4.67836510 North_Macedonian
8.13563151 Italian
8.86366177 Bulgarian
11.21639871 Montenegrin
11.74313416 Romanian
12.84292412 Sicilian
15.35388550 Maltese
15.37062133 Ashkenazi
15.78089668 Serb

Target: Albanian
Distance: 0.6977% / 0.69773576 | ADC: 0.25x RC
45.8 North_Macedonian
39.0 Greek
11.1 Italian
4.1 Sardinian

Distance to: Bosniak
2.39589232 Moldovan
3.82602927 Serb
3.99929994 Croat
6.92676692 Hungarian
7.91445513 Romanian
8.53116639 Slovenian
8.53170557 Montenegrin
10.28262612 Slovak
11.14411504 Bulgarian
12.76117158 Czech

Target: Bosniak
Distance: 0.7998% / 0.79982678 | ADC: 0.25x RC
66.7 Moldovan
31.9 Croat
1.4 Latvian

Distance to: Bulgarian
3.52211584 Romanian
4.05530517 Montenegrin
4.30745865 North_Macedonian
7.79798692 Serb
8.86366177 Albanian
9.37273706 Moldovan
10.63980263 Greek
11.14411504 Bosniak
14.15612588 Croat
15.39707764 Italian

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 0.5745% / 0.57449551 | ADC: 0.25x RC
74.1 Romanian
21.1 North_Macedonian
4.8 Assyrian

Distance to: Montenegrin
1.92010416 Romanian
4.05530517 Bulgarian
4.84979381 Serb
6.74046734 North_Macedonian
7.29845874 Moldovan
8.53170557 Bosniak
10.85993554 Croat
11.21639871 Albanian
12.68648493 Hungarian
13.80921794 Greek

Target: Montenegrin
Distance: 0.6633% / 0.66333030 | ADC: 0.25x RC
34.0 Romanian
30.7 Serb
27.3 North_Macedonian
8.0 Swiss_French

Distance to: Slovenian
2.55172491 Hungarian
3.76629792 Slovak
4.57471311 Croat
4.93583833 Czech
7.45436114 Austrian
8.53116639 Bosniak
10.64397952 Moldovan
10.84215385 Serb
13.39238590 Polish
13.43084882 Ukrainian

Target: Slovenian
Distance: 0.6482% / 0.64819472 | ADC: 0.25x RC
63.0 Slovak
20.9 Croat
9.3 Austrian
4.5 Swiss_Italian
2.3 Catalan

Distance to: North_Macedonian
4.30745865 Bulgarian
4.67836510 Albanian
6.74046734 Montenegrin
7.11567987 Romanian
7.27032324 Greek
11.19554376 Serb
11.58864099 Italian
13.26881306 Moldovan
14.83454415 Bosniak
17.11880253 Sicilian

Target: North_Macedonian
Distance: 0.4451% / 0.44508773 | ADC: 0.25x RC
51.0 Albanian
33.0 Bulgarian
16.0 Montenegrin

Distance to: Moldovan
2.39589232 Bosniak
3.11528490 Serb
6.12621417 Croat
6.28444906 Romanian
7.29845874 Montenegrin
8.77619508 Hungarian
9.37273706 Bulgarian
10.64397952 Slovenian
12.37111555 Slovak
13.26881306 Macedonian

Target: Moldovan
Distance: 0.5247% / 0.52469297 | ADC: 0.25x RC
79.9 Bosniak
14.9 Bulgarian
3.4 Mari
1.3 Turkish
0.5 Iraqi

Dunai

03-11-2021, 03:36 PM

Western Europeans:

Distance to: French
6.99386159 Catalan
8.13287157 Swiss_French
8.44925440 Swiss_German
9.16378743 Portuguese
9.78230545 Spanish
10.31415047 Belgian
11.46713565 Afrikaner
11.59427014 Swiss_Italian
14.61736980 English
14.76174786 German

Target: French
Distance: 0.4960% / 0.49595660 | ADC: 0.25x RC
49.0 Swiss_German
24.7 Catalan
18.5 Basque
6.1 Afrikaner
1.7 Swiss_French

Distance to: Dutch
2.54277408 English
3.57263208 Welsh
4.19577168 Scottish
4.31930550 Icelandic
4.77388730 Danish
5.28251834 Norwegian
5.29907539 Irish
6.54009939 Belgian
6.60872151 Afrikaner
6.64689401 Swedish

Target: Dutch
Distance: 0.5159% / 0.51594418 | ADC: 0.25x RC
65.0 English
19.3 Swedish
13.0 Danish
1.4 Saudi
1.3 Afrikaner

Distance to: Belgian
3.31736341 Afrikaner
6.01322709 German
6.31355684 English
6.43069203 Swiss_German
6.54009939 Dutch
7.47704487 Welsh
8.93813180 Scottish
9.93727830 Swiss_French
9.97776027 Irish
10.31415047 French

Target: Belgian
Distance: 0.6639% / 0.66387550 | ADC: 0.25x RC
30.7 Dutch
28.9 Swiss_German
26.9 English
10.7 Swiss_Italian
2.8 Afrikaner

Distance to: German
5.57948026 Afrikaner
6.01322709 Belgian
6.43114298 Austrian
7.58497198 Dutch
8.25797191 Swiss_German
8.79047780 English
9.23797597 Swedish
9.88324845 Danish
9.88892815 Welsh
10.38906156 Icelandic

Target: German
Distance: 0.6270% / 0.62698676 | ADC: 0.25x RC
50.6 Austrian
25.4 Icelandic
13.8 Afrikaner
10.2 Belgian

Distance to: Austrian
6.43114298 German
7.45436114 Slovenian
7.73963823 Hungarian
8.67870958 Czech
9.12769960 Swiss_German
9.93076533 Slovak
10.46030114 Croat
10.66738018 Afrikaner
10.97621975 Swiss_French
11.04507583 Belgian

Target: Austrian
Distance: 0.9011% / 0.90111200 | ADC: 0.25x RC
45.1 German
44.5 Slovenian
10.4 Swiss_French

Distance to: Swiss_German
3.91447314 Swiss_French
6.43069203 Belgian
7.46211096 Afrikaner
8.25797191 German
8.44925440 French
9.12769960 Austrian
12.54899996 English
12.63300044 Dutch
13.31631330 Swiss_Italian
13.58182609 Welsh

Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.7106% / 0.71059085 | ADC: 0.25x RC
40.2 Swiss_French
35.0 Belgian
14.6 Austrian
10.2 Swiss_Italian

Distance to: Swiss_French
3.91447314 Swiss_German
8.13287157 French
9.93727830 Belgian
10.72387057 Afrikaner
10.97621975 Austrian
11.31407530 Swiss_Italian
11.50359944 German
12.31095853 Catalan
12.75622985 Portuguese
14.96657944 Spanish

Target: Swiss_French
Distance: 0.7883% / 0.78827937 | ADC: 0.25x RC
45.4 Swiss_German
36.1 French
15.4 Montenegrin
3.1 Ossetian

Distance to: Swiss_Italian
7.25652121 Portuguese
8.75970319 Catalan
10.08128960 Spanish
11.31407530 Swiss_French
11.59427014 French
13.31631330 Swiss_German
14.26483438 Italian
17.83317134 Albanian
17.83907509 Montenegrin
17.92596162 Macedonian

Target: Swiss_Italian
Distance: 3.1857% / 3.18569408
72.6 Catalan
19.7 Ashkenazi
7.6 Belorussian
0.1 Sardinian

Dunai

03-11-2021, 03:37 PM

And finally Southern Europeans:

Distance to: Italian
8.13563151 Albanian
9.63225830 Greek
11.48283937 Sicilian
11.58864099 North_Macedonian
14.26483438 Swiss_Italian
14.42833670 Maltese
15.39707764 Bulgarian
16.34737594 Ashkenazi
16.45263809 Montenegrin
17.50871497 Romanian

Target: Italian
Distance: 1.1602% / 1.16020585 | ADC: 0.25x RC
48.8 Sicilian
24.4 Catalan
18.7 Albanian
8.1 Swiss_Italian

Distance to: Spanish
3.51636176 Catalan
3.72221708 Portuguese
9.78230545 French
10.08128960 Swiss_Italian
14.96657944 Swiss_French
16.76269071 Swiss_German
18.42181316 Basque
19.72857319 Belgian
20.25123947 Italian
20.67264134 Afrikaner

Target: Spanish
Distance: 0.7300% / 0.73002290 | ADC: 0.25x RC
64.3 Portuguese
17.9 Catalan
13.4 Basque
4.4 Sardinian

Distance to: Greek
4.01391330 Albanian
7.27032324 North_Macedonian
9.63225830 Italian
10.33178591 Sicilian
10.63980263 Bulgarian
12.41383905 Cretan
12.54092899 Maltese
12.76517528 Ashkenazi
13.80921794 Montenegrin
13.97282720 Romanian

Target: Greek
Distance: 0.1815% / 0.18152196 | ADC: 0.25x RC
60.8 Albanian
24.6 Cretan
12.5 Bulgarian
2.1 Kumyk

Distance to: Portuguese
3.72221708 Spanish
4.03988861 Catalan
7.25652121 Swiss_Italian
9.16378743 French
12.75622985 Swiss_French
14.62810651 Swiss_German
17.90891957 Italian
18.29737959 Belgian
19.12352478 Afrikaner
21.79602028 Basque

Target: Portuguese
Distance: 0.5427% / 0.54268779 | ADC: 0.25x RC
70.9 Spanish
13.0 Swiss_Italian
6.6 Afrikaner
4.4 Algerian
3.9 Swiss_German
1.2 Tigrayan

Distance to: Catalan
3.51636176 Spanish
4.03988861 Portuguese
6.99386159 French
8.75970319 Swiss_Italian
12.31095853 Swiss_French
13.88713793 Swiss_German
16.72550747 Belgian
17.76631926 Afrikaner
19.35954028 Basque
20.21906773 Italian

Target: Catalan
Distance: 1.5349% / 1.53489451 | ADC: 0.25x RC
62.5 Spanish
27.7 French
9.8 Swiss_Italian

Distance to: Cypriot
7.82138734 Alawite
7.92219035 Lebanese
10.63044684 Syrian
12.23298001 Druze
13.13790699 Sephardi
13.80223895 Jordanian
13.93906023 Cretan
14.16509442 Palestinian
16.43402872 Maltese

Target: Cypriot
Distance: 3.0519% / 3.05189682
48.3 Druze
28.7 Assyrian
19.4 Sardinian
2.8 Bedouin
0.8 Cretan

Distance to: Sardinian
30.53863946 Italian
30.57106148 Spanish
31.59609311 Portuguese
32.59049248 Algerian
32.86829171 Swiss_Italian
32.87561254 Sicilian
33.12831116 Catalan
33.91577509 Albanian
34.65919214 Maltese
35.24275954 Moroccan

Target: Sardinian
Distance: 23.1182% / 23.11815193
47.9 Basque
31.1 Moroccan
21.0 Cypriot

Distance to: Sicilian
3.30234765 Maltese
7.25877400 Cretan
8.18213297 Ashkenazi
10.33178591 Greek
10.39190069 Sephardi
11.48283937 Italian
12.84292412 Albanian
17.11880253 North_Macedonian
19.06523013 Cypriot
20.64966344 Bulgarian

Target: Sicilian
Distance: 0.4826% / 0.48257085 | ADC: 0.25x RC
63.0 Maltese
19.4 Italian
12.4 Cretan
3.5 Sardinian
1.7 Ossetian

Distance to: Basque
18.42181316 Spanish
19.35954028 Catalan
20.93907591 French
21.79602028 Portuguese
27.71624794 Swiss_Italian
28.56832862 Belgian
28.57307299 Swiss_French
28.62639691 Welsh
28.93644069 English
29.12743380 Swiss_German

Target: Basque
Distance: 18.1295% / 18.12954892
73.0 Spanish
19.8 Irish
7.2 Sardinian

Distance to: Maltese
3.30234765 Sicilian
6.14106668 Cretan
6.75310299 Ashkenazi
7.82689594 Sephardi
12.54092899 Greek
14.42833670 Italian
15.35388550 Albanian
16.43402872 Cypriot
19.10316728 Alawite
19.42679335 North_Macedonian

Target: Maltese
Distance: 0.7049% / 0.70492586 | ADC: 0.25x RC
71.6 Sicilian
8.7 Sephardi
5.0 Ashkenazi
4.6 Cretan
4.1 Syrian
3.2 Tunisian
2.8 Jordanian

JohnnyP

03-11-2021, 03:48 PM

Dunai

03-11-2021, 03:54 PM

Latest Macedonian K13 average from 145 kits vs averages ( No regions )

Target: Macedonian
Distance: 0.3079% / 0.30788151 | R2P
87.7 Albanian
12.3 Ukrainian_Belgorod

Distance to: Macedonian
2.22326337 Vlach(Aromanian)_average
3.85302479 Albanian_Gheg
4.30745865 Bulgaria_average
4.67836510 Albanian
4.81767579 Torbesh_average
5.81461951 Pomak_Bulgaria
6.26111013 Turk_Makedonya
6.53215125 Albanian_Tosk
6.74046734 Montenegrin
7.11567987 Romania_average

Already used the updated North Macedonian average (see above), but as I stated, I excluded all those numerous regional averages and also used 0.25X ADC as default. Your people seem to be modeled as half-Albanian, 1/3 Bulgarian and 1/4 Montenegrin, typical South Balkans results.

Davystayn

03-11-2021, 03:55 PM

Interesting that Norwegians and Danish are much closer to Welsh and Irish than they are to Germans.

Jana

03-11-2021, 03:57 PM

Cool thread.

Dunai

03-11-2021, 04:02 PM

Interesting that Norwegians and Danish are much closer to Welsh and Irish than they are to Germans.

Germans get modeled as half-Austrians, who also get modeled as half-Slovenians, so it's because they have pretty significant East-Central European origin (around 1/4), while the Welsh are pretty much exclusively Northwestern Europeans.

Davystayn

03-11-2021, 04:10 PM

Germans get modeled as half-Austrians, who also get modeled as half-Slovenians, so it's because they have pretty significant East-Central European origin (around 1/4), while the Welsh are pretty much exclusively Northwestern Europeans.

Interesting, it shows the size of Germany and variation I guess. It does run from Schleswig to the Alps after all.

The French results suprising too, I guess there is a similar north south regional split like Germany, as it stretches from the North Sea to the Med

Great work btw

J. Ketch

03-11-2021, 04:25 PM

Nice work, might also want to run Flemish with other NW Europeans

Flemish,46.12,23.02,14.39,5.56,7.05,0.88,0.87,0.43 ,0.17,0.57,0.37,0.35,0.17

Jana

03-11-2021, 04:30 PM

Dunai

03-11-2021, 04:53 PM

You could also run Aromanians, Sorbs and Pomaks if you wish:

Aromanian,21.26,20.34,19.00,11.77,22.61,3.09,0.18, 0.47,0.47,0.41,0.38,0.04,0.00
Sorb,33.21,41.31,10.56,4.96,6.56,0.56,1.15,0.46,0. 26,0.59,0.16,0.10,0.12
Pomak,19.91,25.54,17.54,12.24,20.19,2.63,0.09,0.69 ,0.47,0.30,0.17,0.19,0.05

Honestly I tried to focus on the more numerous ethnicities of Europe, that's why a few smaller ones weren't included in the source this time, nothing against them. I might add them later.

Dunai

03-11-2021, 05:03 PM

Nice work, might also want to run Flemish with other NW Europeans

Flemish,46.12,23.02,14.39,5.56,7.05,0.88,0.87,0.43 ,0.17,0.57,0.37,0.35,0.17

I was thinking to add them, but since there was a Belgian average, which already includes the Flemish, I thought it redundant eventually to have them also separately, when we don't have a separate Walloon average.

RicoSuave

03-11-2021, 05:32 PM

Distance to: Ukrainian
4.86716550 Polish
5.53960287 Russian
6.12787076 Belorussian
9.93638264 Slovak
10.67745756 Lithuanian
11.17184855 Czech
11.44517802 Estonian
13.12278172 Finnish
13.43084882 Slovenian
14.64530300 Croat

Target: Ukrainian
Distance: 0.5415% / 0.54145802 | ADC: 0.25x RC
35.6 Bosniak
33.0 Latvian
15.1 Russian
13.3 Polish
3.0 Belorussian

I'm statistically 99.7% Ukrainian, here is better model without all the overfitting:

Distance: 2.5700% / 0.02570001
50.2 Slav_proxy
13.0 Avar
9.8 Tibetan_Xunhua
7.6 Fulani
6.8 Yemenite_Amran
4.0 Yukagir_Forest
3.0 Khonda_Dora
3.0 Tajik_Rushan
1.0 Tlingit
0.8 Mbuti
0.4 Bantu_Kenya
0.4 Ethiopian_Ari

Dunai

03-11-2021, 06:29 PM

These are some of a the more curious admixture modelings:
- Finns get almost 4% Yakut, a Siberian Turkic population
- Icelandic get 1% Dargin, a Caucasus population
- Russians get 1/5 Chuvash, an Oghur Turkic population
- Ukrainians get 1/3 Bosniak, a West Balkan population
- Hungarians get 3% Bashkir, a Kypchak Turkic population
- Belorussians get 3% Saudi, an Arabic population
- Romanians get 2% Uzbeki, a Karluk Turkic population
- Bulgarians get 5% Assyrian, a Middle Eastern population
- Montenegrins get 8% Swiss French, a Western European population
- Moldovans get 3% Mari, a Volga Finnic population but also around 1-1% Turkish and Iraqi, two Middle Eastern populations
- Dutch get little over 1% Saudi, an Arabic population
- Swiss French get 15% Montenegrin, a West Balkan population but also 3% Ossetian, a Caucasus population
- Swiss Italians get 1/5 Ashkenazi, a Jewish population but also 8% Belorussian an East Slavic population
- Greeks get 2% Kumyk, a Kypchak Turkic population
- Portuguese get little over 4% Algerian, a Maghreb population but also 1% Tigrayan, an Ethiopic population
- Cypriots get 1/2 Druze and almost 1/3 Assyrian, two Middle Eastern populations but also 3% Bedouin, a MENA population
- Sardinians get 23 distance as their closest approximation, which basically makes them complete aliens living with themselves :D
- Basques get 1/5 Irish, a British Isles population

RogueState

03-11-2021, 06:54 PM

Dunai

03-11-2021, 07:46 PM

It's impossible that the French average is closer to Portuguese than to Spaniard, it doesn't make sense. The French sample must be "southern"-shifted than the real average

It's a complete breath of fresh air to see this quick genetic distance, highlighting what we all know in the little genetic population community, but completely ignored by the general public : Italians and Greeks are closer to Albanians and other dominantely-Paleo-Balkanic people than to French, Spaniards and Portuguese

Because go ask any average European or American in the street in the world, they have this inconscious believe that Italians, Spaniards, Portuguese, Greeks are close "Southern Europeans" while "Balkanians" are just Eastern Europeans like Russians or Poles... ("thanks" to the Communist regimes, us Balkanians were geo-culturally cut-off of our natural Mediterranean sphere...)

If I'm mistaken then someone should correct me, but I do have a sense that the national averages for Greeks, French, Spanish, Italians and Russians leave much to be desired on K13. Since these people are so diverse, in my opinion new averages should be created for them, in which every major region will be included into the national average in a proportionate way, based on how many percent does one region represent in the national whole. This proportionate national average could be the only one that would come close to a more representative national average. Unfortunately I don't know of any who would be up for such a task.

Leto

03-11-2021, 07:49 PM

If I'm mistaken then someone should correct me, but I do have a sense that the national averages for Greeks, French, Spanish, Italians and Russians leave much to be desired on K13. Since these people are so diverse, in my opinion new averages should be created for them, in which every major region will be included into the national average in a proportionate way, based on how many percent does one region represent in the national whole. This proportionate national average could be the only one that would come close to a more representative national average. Unfortunately I don't know of any who would be up for such a task.
The Russian average is mine and it's pretty decent, you won't get anything better on this forum if anywhere. Italian, Greek, etc. are probably just averages of the regional averages, I can't speak for them.

RogueState

03-11-2021, 07:51 PM

Yeah we don't know what are inside these averages, especially for large countries (France, Germany) or heterogenous ethnic group, like Greeks (how much does this average includes Macedonian Greeks, Cretans, Pontians, Athenians, does it reflect the real demography of the country ?)

Dunai

03-11-2021, 07:54 PM

The Russian average is mine and it's pretty decent, you won't get anything better on this forum if anywhere. Italian, Greek, etc. is probably just an average of the regional averages, I can't speak for them.

Okay, at least that one isn't problematic. How valid do you think this algorithm is in making Russians 1/5 Chuvash, making them by far the most Asiatic Europeans (if we exclude Turkic and some Finno-Ugric people living in Europe)? Weren't Russians supposed to be very close to Belorussians and Ukrainians, since those two barely get any Turkic on K13?

Voidspawn

03-11-2021, 07:56 PM

If I'm mistaken then someone should correct me, but I do have a sense that the national averages for Greeks, French, Spanish, Italians and Russians leave much to be desired on K13. Since these people are so diverse, in my opinion new averages should be created for them, in which every major region will be included into the national average in a proportionate way, based on how many percent does one region represent in the national whole. This proportionate national average could be the only one that would come close to a more representative national average. Unfortunately I don't know of any who would be up for such a task.

I have the impression that the Romanian average is based on Bucharest as well. In any case, I think the French plot is in a similar situation with the Romanian one - too south.

Jana

03-11-2021, 07:59 PM

I have the impression that the Romanian average is based on Bucharest as well. In any case, I think the French plot is in a similar situation with the Romanian one - too south.

Your impression is incorrect. Romanian average is weighted national average based on all regions.

Dunai

03-11-2021, 08:00 PM

I have the impression that the Romanian average is based on Bucharest as well. In any case, I think the French plot is in a similar situation with the Romanian one - too south.

Romanian is actually together with Hungarian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Irish, Moldovan, English, Welsh, Scottish, North Macedonian and Croatian (definitely I forgot a few others) one of the most accurate averages on K13, based on hundreds of samples from all regions.

Cristiano viejo

03-11-2021, 08:01 PM

If I'm mistaken then someone should correct me, but I do have a sense that the national averages for Greeks, French, Spanish, Italians and Russians leave much to be desired on K13. Since these people are so diverse, in my opinion new averages should be created for them, in which every major region will be included into the national average in a proportionate way, based on how many percent does one region represent in the national whole. This proportionate national average could be the only one that would come close to a more representative national average. Unfortunately I don't know of any who would be up for such a task.
Spaniards are not diverse at all, in fact we are quite homogeneous. Not our fault that you foreigners get crazy to diversify/Balkanize us.

Jana

03-11-2021, 08:01 PM

Lots of complaining for nothing - French, Italian and Greek averages are all fine, because they represent something in middle of genetically diverse countries.
Russian average is not so close to UA/PL because Leto already explained it - he based it mostly on Russians from central and volga-ural regions where bulk of population lives and less on southern and northern Russians.

Jana

03-11-2021, 08:03 PM

It's impossible that the French average is closer to Portuguese than to Spaniard, it doesn't make sense. The French sample must be "southern"-shifted than the real average

Not really. French average is pretty realistic, it's just that you have wrong idea that Portuguese are more southern shifted than Spaniards - mostly incorrect.

Leto

03-11-2021, 08:05 PM

Okay, at least that one isn't problematic. How valid do you think this algorithm is in making Russians 1/5 Chuvash, making them by far the most Asiatic Europeans (if we exclude Turkic and some Finno-Ugric people living in Europe)? Weren't Russians supposed to be very close to Belorussians and Ukrainians, since those two barely get any Turkic on K13?
Well, first of all, the Chuvash are like 25% Mongoloid or so. Turkic is mainly a linguistic thing, don't treat it as a largely genetic thing. That average includes a lot of Northern and Volga Russians and it's still like 5-6% East Eurasian which sounds very plausible for the Russians as a whole. Of course if you exclude the Northern/Eastern Russians, you would get a smaller distance to Ukrainians and Belorussians but that won't be a representative average.

Voidspawn

03-11-2021, 08:06 PM

Your impression is incorrect. Romanian average is weighted national average based on all regions.

Northeast has more than 30% baltic on average. I'm sure that if they had more samples from there it would have tipped the scales more towards the north. Also it's funny how easy you can get summoned by anyone who claims romanians lie more north than their actual dot on the genetic map.

Jana

03-11-2021, 08:08 PM

Northeast has more than 30% baltic on average. I'm sure that if they had more samples from there it would have tipped the scales more towards the north. Also it's funny how easy you can get summoned by anyone who claims romanians lie more north than their actual dot on the genetic map.

No, not. Romanian average is based on hundreds on samples and weighted according to population of each region. Not my fault you don't like reality.
And overall average is closest to Transylvania, not Wallachia.

Leto

03-11-2021, 08:08 PM

Russian average is not so close to UA/PL because Leto already explained it - he based it mostly on Russians from central and volga-ural regions where bulk of population lives and less on southern and northern Russians.
Yes, I cherry-picked the samples based on genealogy only, not on their scores and that's the result I arrived at. About 25-30% of them are Central Russians, 25% from the Volga-Ural, etc.

Voidspawn

03-11-2021, 08:12 PM

No, not. Romanian average is based on hundreds on samples and weighted according to population of each region. Not my fault you don't like reality.
And overall average is closest to Transylvania, not Wallachia.

Wallachia is at least as dark as Bulgaria, but I still think the overwhelming majority of the samples is from Bucharest and surroundings, enough to make the Romanian dot be right north to Bulgaria. More Moldavian samples would have brought the Romanian dot next to Serbian. Moldovans are between Bosniaks and Croats in whiteness, and Romanian Moldavians are identical to Romanian ethnics from Republic of Moldova.

You can say that there are hundreds of samples from every historical region, but this may mean 200 from Moldavia and 900 from Wallachia. The fact that blonde hair maps place Romania above Serbia and on par with Bosnia speak clearer than a dot on a genetic map.

Jana

03-11-2021, 08:19 PM

Wallachia is at least as dark as Bulgaria, but I still think the overwhelming majority of the samples is from Bucharest and surroundings, enough to make the Romanian dot be right north to Bulgaria. More Moldavian samples would have brought the Romanian dot next to Serbian. Moldovans are between Bosniaks and Croats in whiteness, and Romanian Moldavians are identical to Romanian ethnics from Republic of Moldova.

You can say that there are hundreds of samples from every historical region, but this may mean 200 from Moldavia and 900 from Wallachia. The fact that blonde hair maps place Romania above Serbia and on par with Bosnia speak clearer than a dot on a genetic map.

Retard, this average was made by Moldovan and samples from south are proportional to percentage of population from that region compared to overall population size, and that is criteria for each region.
I don't care about your blabbings, this is reality.

Romanian average is closest to Montenegrins (who are closest to Transylvania alltogheder) while Wallachian one is closest to Bulgarians.

And don't speak to me about blondness, I was in Transylvania and Romanians there were swarthy as hell.

Leto

03-11-2021, 08:21 PM

Northeast has more than 30% baltic on average. I'm sure that if they had more samples from there it would have tipped the scales more towards the north. Also it's funny how easy you can get summoned by anyone who claims romanians lie more north than their actual dot on the genetic map.
Are you a real Moldovan user? Basescu said you were you a sock puppet that should be ignored.
Show me your Dodecad K12b components please if you are legit :)

Jana

03-11-2021, 08:22 PM

Are you a real Moldovan user? Basescu said you were you a sock puppet that should be ignored.
Show me your Dodecad K12b components please if you are legit :)

He's OWD ashamed because Romanians are genetically southern for their geographic position.

Leto

03-11-2021, 08:23 PM

@Dunai
This oracle is not the ultimate truth. According to it Moldovans are closer to Bosniaks than to Romanians and Montenegrins are closer to Romanians than to Serbs.

Samnium

03-11-2021, 08:23 PM

Nonsense to make a general italian average. Considering the diversity of Italy.

Even a Northern Italian average would be off.

Voidspawn

03-11-2021, 08:25 PM

Retard, this average was made by Moldovan and samples from south are proportional to percentage of population from that region compared to overall population size, and that is criteria for each region.
I don't care about your blabbings, this is reality.

Romanian average is closest to Montenegrins (who are closest to Transylvania alltogheder) while Wallachian one is closest to Bulgarians.

And don't speak to me about blondness, I was in Trasylvania and Romanians there were swarthy as hell.

Just look at maps researched by users of this site. Serbs are darker than Romanians yet they are more "northern". How come? Of course they are going to be swarthy, because balkanians are wogs in comparison to northern european people. But there's a difference between Macedonian/Aromanian tier swarthy and Croatian tier swarthy. Because there's no difference in pigmentation between groups from northernmost Romania and Croatia.

Jana

03-11-2021, 08:25 PM

Nonsense to make a general italian average. Considering the diversity of Italy.

Even a Northern Italian average would be off.

I don't see problem with it, nobody forces you to use it because there are zillion of regional averages anyway.

Jana

03-11-2021, 08:27 PM

Just look at maps researched by users of this site. Serbs are darker than Romanians yet they are more "northern". How come? Of course they are going to be swarthy, because balkanians are wogs in comparison to northern european people. But there's a difference between Macedonian/Aromanian tier swarthy and Croatian tier swarthy. Because there's no difference in pigmentation between groups from northernmost Romania and Croatia.

Serbs aren't darker than Romanians. Leave the thread, this is thread about genetics and nobody cares for your complexes.
I saw Romanian people looks and they correspond to their genetics.

Leto

03-11-2021, 08:28 PM

Nonsense to make a general italian average. Considering the diversity of Italy.

Even a Northern Italian average would be off.
Don't act like there are no millions of regionally mixed Italians out there. Also there are still commonalities between all or most Italian regions. It's not like one is a Cypriot and another is a German or something. Most Italians are undoubtedly Meddish type of people, neither Northern nor Eastern Europeans.

Jana

03-11-2021, 08:30 PM

@Dunai
This oracle is not the ultimate truth. According to it Moldovans are closer to Bosniaks than to Romanians and Montenegrins are closer to Romanians than to Serbs.

Moldovans are closer to Bosniaks because they have more Slavic, not because they share ancestry with them.
Sample applies to Montenegrins and Romanians - Montenegrins are more Vlach admixed than other Serbs thus closer to Romanians.

Clustering has nothing to do with real origin and shared DNA. Stears shares DNA with west Slavs and Austrians but clusters much more southeastern than they do due to other admixture he has.

Jana

03-11-2021, 08:35 PM

I tested Russian average made by Leto on my calc:

Target: Russian
Distance: 0.8580% / 0.85801762

61.3 Slavic
23.4 Baltic
15.3 Finnic

Looks fine, it has Finnic admix which pulls it bit further from Poles and Ukrainians. Average Russian being 15% Finnic admixed doesn't seem like a stretch, I would imagine it somewhere along these lines.

Leto

03-11-2021, 08:37 PM

Moldovans are closer to Bosniaks because they have more Slavic, not because they share ancestry with them.
Sample applies to Montenegrins and Romanians - Montenegrins are more Vlach admixed than other Serbs thus closer to Romanians.

Clustering has nothing to do with real origin and shared DNA. Stears shares DNA with west Slavs and Austrians but clusters much more southeastern than they do due to other admixture he has.
Yeah, I know. People would logically expect RO and MD to be closest to each other just like Serbia and Crna Gora.

Jana

03-11-2021, 08:38 PM

Yeah, I know. People would logically expect RO and MD to be closest to each other just like Serbia and Crna Gora.

Well Romanian Moldova is pretty similar to RM genetically.

Leto

03-11-2021, 08:38 PM

Voidspawn

03-11-2021, 08:45 PM

Are you a real Moldovan user? Basescu said you were you a sock puppet that should be ignored.
Show me your Dodecad K12b components please if you are legit :)

Population
Gedrosia 5.43 Pct
Siberian 0.46 Pct
Northwest_African 1.35 Pct
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 25.35 Pct
North_European 40.1 Pct
South_Asian 0.11 Pct
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 4.96 Pct
East_Asian 2.07 Pct
Caucasus 20.17 Pct
Sub_Saharan -

As for the country, I'm from Romanian Moldavia.

Leto

03-11-2021, 08:53 PM

Population
Gedrosia 5.43 Pct
Siberian 0.46 Pct
Northwest_African 1.35 Pct
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 25.35 Pct
North_European 40.1 Pct
South_Asian 0.11 Pct
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 4.96 Pct
East_Asian 2.07 Pct
Caucasus 20.17 Pct
Sub_Saharan -

As for the country, I'm from Romanian Moldavia.
Nice.

Distance to: Voidspawn
2.75109069 Moldavian_Center
3.21877306 Moldavian_North
3.43093282 Serb
3.66326357 Bosnian
4.73437430 Croat
4.95888092 Hungarian_Transylvania_Szekely
6.44410583 Montenegrin
7.61436800 Hungarian_Transdanubia_Budapest
7.80367862 Hungarian
7.87935277 Romanian

Target: Voidspawn
Distance: 1.5053% / 1.50530433 | ADC: 0.5x RC
49.7 Moldavian_Center
30.9 Moldavian_North
18.1 Hungarian_Transylvania_Szekely
1.3 Japanese

But these Moldavian samples are from the Republic.

Dunai

03-11-2021, 09:27 PM

Just look at maps researched by users of this site. Serbs are darker than Romanians yet they are more "northern". How come? Of course they are going to be swarthy, because balkanians are wogs in comparison to northern european people. But there's a difference between Macedonian/Aromanian tier swarthy and Croatian tier swarthy. Because there's no difference in pigmentation between groups from northernmost Romania and Croatia.

Phenotype and pigmentation isn't necessarily in correlation with genetic admixture, so the way people look won't always match their genetic admixture. From all the many regional averages I have seen for Romania, only Northern Moldavians and Northern Transylvanians are comparable with Western Balkans, rest of the regions are very Southern Balkans, so overall the national average seems to be very representative of your country.

Samnium

03-12-2021, 04:52 PM

Don't act like there are no millions of regionally mixed Italians out there. Also there are still commonalities between all or most Italian regions. It's not like one is a Cypriot and another is a German or something. Most Italians are undoubtedly Meddish type of people, neither Northern nor Eastern Europeans.

The range of Italy genetically goes from French/Austrian (SudTyrol) like to Cypriot like... So definitely a huge variation. Italy is well recognized as the most diverse country genetically in Europe... (1)

So making an average is very off for me. It's not for nothing that many calculators or studies have distinct averages, most commonly Sardinia, Sicily... To differentiate. (2)

That doesn't change that Italy is a Southern Euro country in all regards.

Btw the french average is also off. Def. not Northern France neither Central France. Closer to Catalans than to Swiss French...

Additional notes

1: There were Cypriot like individuals either on professional studies or individual tests, though it's really rare, it can happens in Southern Italy.

Same goes for French like individuals in Northern Italy, people from Sud Tyrol that are clearly part of the austrian cluster though at the southern end of it (they come close also to other Alpines like French Alpines), minorities from Trento...

2: In fact every serious study separate italian areas, either Italy 1, Italy 2, Italy 3 or with more explicit names.

Dunai

03-12-2021, 05:08 PM

The range of Italy genetically goes from French/Austrian (SudTyrol) like to Cypriot like... So definitely a huge variation. Italy is well recognized as the most diverse country genetically in Europe...

So making an average is very off for me. It's not for nothing that many calculators or studies have distinct averages, most commonly Sardinia, Sicily... To differentiate.

That doesn't change that Italy is a Southern Euro country in all regards.

Btw the french average is also off. Def. not Northern France neither Central France. Closer to Catalans than to Swiss French...

This is why I treated Sardinians and Sicilians differently from Italians, since these two people have quite a distinctive own culture from Peninsula Italians, but I still believe there can be done a national average at least for Peninsula Italians, or at least one for the northern part and another for the central and southern part of Italy, in a proportional way, excluding Sardinians and Sicilians. The French sample is also only a simple average of all the French regions, so I can only hope someone will do a better one.

Samnium

03-12-2021, 05:17 PM

This is why I treated Sardinians and Sicilians differently from Italians, since these two people have quite a distinctive own culture from Peninsula Italians, but I still believe there can be done a national average at least for Peninsula Italians, or at least one for the northern part and another for the central and southern part of Italy, in a proportional way, excluding Sardinians and Sicilians. The French sample is also only a simple average of all the French regions, so I can only hope someone will do a better one.

It's almost impossible to make a national italian average for all the reasons I've said. Also considering that many averages in the G25 database are litterally ridiculous for Italy (Piedmont, Calabria... Weird and in the case of Calabria, three samples...).

I think for the French average you can pick French-Auvergne, it's a central French average, but it could be a good example of what an "average" french can look like if all things are "summed". Maybe averaging with French-Paris, which is a bit more Northern (but not too).

Most French even Northern are around a 60 ±5% N. Atlantic + Baltic, the bulk of the population which is 85% maybe or even more. So maybe a Central French population would fit.

ixulescu

03-12-2021, 05:17 PM

Phenotype and pigmentation isn't necessarily in correlation with genetic admixture, so the way people look won't always match their genetic admixture. From all the many regional averages I have seen for Romania, only Northern Moldavians and Northern Transylvanians are comparable with Western Balkans, rest of the regions are very Southern Balkans, so overall the national average seems to be very representative of your country.

are you still claiming that Romanians are related to Montenegrins? :lol:

what an idiot

Leto

03-12-2021, 05:34 PM

The range of Italy genetically goes from French/Austrian (SudTyrol) like to Cypriot like... So definitely a huge variation. Italy is well recognized as the most diverse country genetically in Europe... (1)

So making an average is very off for me. It's not for nothing that many calculators or studies have distinct averages, most commonly Sardinia, Sicily... To differentiate. (2)

That doesn't change that Italy is a Southern Euro country in all regards.

Btw the french average is also off. Def. not Northern France neither Central France. Closer to Catalans than to Swiss French...

Additional notes

1: There were Cypriot like individuals either on professional studies or individual tests, though it's really rare, it can happens in Southern Italy.

Same goes for French like individuals in Northern Italy, people from Sud Tyrol that are clearly part of the austrian cluster though at the southern end of it (they come close also to other Alpines like French Alpines), minorities from Trento...

2: In fact every serious study separate italian areas, either Italy 1, Italy 2, Italy 3 or with more explicit names.
Well, Southern Italy from Abruzzo to Sicily is home to around 30% of the population. Also many full or partial Southern Italians live in Rome and Northern Italy.
South Tyrol is barely Italian culturally, it's Austrian/German.
I'm not disputing what you said but we need to look at the population size of each region and province to make better conclusions. A few Cypriot or French-like villages in a country of 60 million may be just a drop in the bucket.

Dunai

03-12-2021, 05:40 PM

are you still claiming that Romanians are related to Montenegrins? :lol:

what an idiot

Montenegrins assimilated plenty of Southern Balkan Vlachs, so no surprising Romanians cluster so close to them since they are also largely descendants of Southern Balkan Vlachs, even after so many hundreds of years of migrating north of the Danube they preserved their mostly Southern Balkanic origins. Quite simple to add up these two if you look at things more objectively.

Samnium

03-12-2021, 06:00 PM

Well, Southern Italy from Abruzzo to Sicily is home to around 30% of the population. Also many full or partial Southern Italians live in Rome and Northern Italy.

Partial Southern Italian ancestry is something that can be exagerated. From what I've seen, it's not uncommon but neither the norm. And it's rarely 1/2, 1/2, I know that 1/4 or 1/8 can make a shift but not that much.

The method to factorize regions by their population would be good if Italy was an homogenous country where samples from each region cluster tightly together. Unfortunately not...

South Tyrol is barely Italian culturally, it's Austrian/German.

Well, Val d'Aosta too (culturally they are pretty much French), still counted as italian. If you exclude South Tyrol then you can exclude Dolimiti, Friuli, Cimbri region...

I'm not disputing what you said but we need to look at the population size of each region and province to make better conclusions. A few Cypriot or French-like villages in a country of 60 million may be just a drop in the bucket.

Hugh. It's not just "villages" there are whole portions of regions who are either jewish, cypriot or greek (like Apulia) shifted... Same goes for Northern Italy.

Something that you should know is that while the average italian in phenotype do exist, it doesn't exist at all genetically.

ixulescu

03-12-2021, 06:02 PM

Montenegrins assimilated plenty of Southern Balkan Vlachs, so no surprising Romanians cluster so close to them since they are also largely descendants of Southern Balkan Vlachs, even after so many hundreds of years of migrating north of the Danube they preserved their mostly Southern Balkanic origins. Quite simple to add up these two if you look at things more objectively.

OK, thanks for confirming you're an idiot.

Balkan Vlachs have little in common with Romanians, they are far closer to communities they're surrounded by, like Greeks, Albanians and Macedonians.

Ancestry-wise Romanians are far more related to Bulgarians and Serbs than to Aromanians or Montenegrins. The fact that current country averages put Romanians closer to Montenegrins than to Serbs is just an artifact of the higher Slavic admixture in Serbs than Romanians, which this type of modelling cannot deal with. This smaller distance between Romanians and Montenegrins is not a proof of relatedness, but it's a proof that you look at these results ideologically and still want to skew them produce something that endorses the idiotic theory of migration of Romanians .

Genetics clearly disapprove the old Hungarian theory that Romanians are some Albanian population that migrated into Transylvania - but now you have invented another imbecility: Romanians are northbound migrating Montenegrins :lol:
You're grasping at straws, it's time for you to accept the reality.

Leto

03-12-2021, 06:06 PM

Partial Southern Italian ancestry is something that can be exagerated. From what I've seen, it's not uncommon but neither the norm. And it's rarely 1/2, 1/2, I know that 1/4 or 1/8 can make a shift but not that much.

The method to factorize regions by their population would be good if Italy was an homogenous country where samples from each region cluster tightly together. Unfortunately not...

Well, Val d'Aosta too (culturally they are pretty much French), still counted as italian. If you exclude South Tyrol then you can exclude Dolimiti, Friuli, Cimbri region...

Hugh. It's not just "villages" there are whole portions of regions who are either jewish, cypriot or greek (like Apulia) shifted... Same goes for Northern Italy.

Something that you should know is that while the average italian in phenotype do exist, it doesn't exist at all genetically.
Okay, then I don't know, can't say anything else. I'm just waiting for GiCa's results, hope she comes out super Italic :cool:

Dunai

03-12-2021, 06:10 PM

OK, thanks for confirming you're an idiot.

Balkan Vlachs have little in common with Romanians, they are far closer to communities they're surrounded by, like Greeks, Albanians and Macedonians.

Ancestry-wise Romanians are far more related to Bulgarians and Serbs than to Aromanians or Montenegrins. The fact that current country averages put Romanians closer to Montenegrins than to Serbs is just an artifact of the higher Slavic admixture in Serbs than Romanians, which this type of modelling cannot deal with. This smaller distance between Romanians and Montenegrins is not a proof of relatedness, but it's a proof that you look at these results ideologically and still want to skew them produce something that endorses the idiotic theory of migration of Romanians .

Genetics clearly disapprove the old Hungarian theory that Romanians are some Albanian population that migrated into Transylvania - but now you have invented another imbecility: Romanians are northbound migrating Montenegrins :lol:
You're grasping at straws, it's time for you to accept the reality.

I don't care about ideologies when looking at genetic data, but only try to find the likeliest explanation when comparing population x and y. Obviously when comparing two populations no theory will be fully applicable to all individuals within those groups, but they can reflect on trends. Based on history my previous mentioned theory is the likeliest to explain why Romanians score so close to Montenegrins, otherwise they should score more like Moldovans and Serbians, which doesn't happen.

Samnium

03-12-2021, 06:14 PM

Okay, then I don't know, can't say anything else. I'm just waiting for GiCa's results, hope she comes out super Italic :cool:

She would come out as Northern Tuscan probably so definitely close to early Italic samples even if they were Northern Italian like (if I'm not mistaken 1 of them was Tuscan like).

ixulescu

03-12-2021, 06:16 PM

I don't care about ideologies when looking at genetic data, but only try to find the likeliest explanation when comparing population x and y. Obviously when comparing tow populations no theory will be fully applicable to all individuals within those groups, but they can reflect on trends. Based on history my previous mentioned theory is the likeliest to explain why Romanians score so close to Montenegrins, otherwise they should score more like Moldovans and Serbians, which doesn't happen.

There are only 3 possibilities for anyone to believe such a theory (that Romanians are related to Montenegrins):
1. they're dumb
2. they're ill-intentioned
3. or both of the above

I'm sure you also believe that Moldovans are related to Bosniaks, another gem of the K13 distances :lol:

Scandal

03-12-2021, 06:41 PM

Leto

03-12-2021, 06:45 PM

Scandal

03-12-2021, 06:55 PM

Sicily is the second largest Southern Italian region after Campania. Of course they are Italians. Even Sardinians speak more Italian than Sardinian according to Wikipedia.
I'm reading wikipedia now, in Sicily independist party has 0.7% support at elections, in Veneto 60%...

Samnium

03-12-2021, 07:35 PM

I don't see the point of removing Sicilians from the Italian avarage. They do have their distinct dialect, culture, identity etc but so does every other Italian region. In recent years separatism was stronger in North Italy than in Sicily. Venetians identify with a unified Italy less than do Sicilians. Btw I heard Calabria that's still on the peninsula is genetically more southern than Sicily, so Sicily is more similar to peninsular Italians.

Entirely false.

There's a study published 1.5 months ago that showed that there's substructure in Calabria and that there are differences. Cosentian samples grouped with Apulian, Basilicatan, while Catazanro a bit more southern. And it's a recent study, I've plenty others. Studies from italian geneticists upon endogamy, Y-DNA studies...

And just saying, Eastern Sicily is basically Southern Calabria in all regards.

Sicilians are Italians to you, but say that to them... They will laugh. They consider themselves firstly as Sicilian, which is fine. I've known many sicilians, and I have even a sicilian uncle so... (he has married my aunt)

Sicilians can be a proxy of Southern Italians though in reality I would take a region like Basilicata.

Conclusion : Sicily is heterogenous, just like Calabria, and saying "Calabria is more southern than Sicily" doesn't make any sense.

gixajo

03-12-2021, 08:31 PM

.......

If you do not like Italian and French references that are in current datasheet, get kits or individual coordinates of every calculator you want to improve its datasheet, from people from different regions of those countries, and make your own regional references that you find suitable.

You cannot expect people from other ethnic groups to have more interest than you to make a general reference to these two countries in which you could be more interested.

It is understandable that they focus more on countries and ethnicities with which they can share more things genetically.

Gathering coordinates and kit numbers of a country is not the most complicated, the most complicated is how to know if the ancestry declared by that person is true.

You can open a Gedmatch project, if you gather 50 Gedmatch kit numbers related with your project.

Once opened, anyone who sees it and is interested in the future, could add their kit number and the origin (for example) of their 4 grandparents.

Averages with Dodecad, K13 or K15 are easy to do.

Leto

03-12-2021, 08:46 PM

If you do not like Italian and French references that are in current datasheet, get kits or individual coordinates of every calculator you want to improve its datasheet, from people from different regions of those countries, and make your own regional references that you find suitable.

You cannot expect people from other ethnic groups to have more interest than you to make a general reference to these two countries in which you could be more interested.

It is understandable that they focus more on countries and ethnicities with which they can share more things genetically.

Gathering coordinates and kit numbers of a country is not the most complicated, the most complicated is how to know if the ancestry declared by that person is true.

You can open a Gedmatch project, if you gather 50 Gedmatch kit numbers related with your project.

Once opened, anyone who sees it and is interested in the future, could add their kit number and the origin (for example) of their 4 grandparents.

Averages with Dodecad, K13 or K15 are easy to do.
Oh Lord, finally I can agree with you! Even though I've had a lot of contempt for you for being allegedly "anti-Gedmatch".

Yes, I do think Samnium exaggerates to some extent. We have averages for every Italian region and even that is supposedly not enough. Should we have averages for every province? Some of them are very small. After all, an average is an average and you can't expect all people to match it. Hell, even siblings can score quite differently!

Leto

03-12-2021, 08:52 PM

https://www.statista.com/statistics/617497/resident-population-italy-by-region/

Trentino-South Tyrol has 1 million inhabitants, Lombardy has 10 million, Piedmont has 4 million. Guess who's more representative for Northern Italy as a macroregion...

Samnium

03-12-2021, 08:55 PM

The problem is that the studies like the one made 1.5 months are rare. And amateur samples ... Well, 90% of the amateur samples are from Sicily. I think making averages for every province would be quite good but even in provinces there is substructure... If not, why there is a 10 years old study that showed Cypriot-like cosentians from Belvedere Marittimo, and then 1.5 months ago, cosentians from Northern Cosenza similar to Basilicatans, Apulians ? I mean, the difference between the two is huge.

Italy escape to any prediction and attempt to generalize his genetical structure, while there's certainly an "italian range" (saying that Italians can't plot outside of it without being mixed), there's the whole Europe inside it. The difference between a northern italian and a southern italian can be as large as the difference between a spaniard and a russian... It's just mind-blowing.

Personally, even if sometimes I see some studies or tests, I've entirely gave up the hope to make averages that are consistent. I expect huge studies like the one in France that will probably published in 1 or 2 years with something like 8000 samples, checked genealogically and with a high-quality analysis... It's up to professionnals for a country like that.

Leto

03-12-2021, 09:36 PM

She would come out as Northern Tuscan probably so definitely close to early Italic samples even if they were Northern Italian like (if I'm not mistaken 1 of them was Tuscan like).
She just came out as 100 percent Italian :)

Samnium

03-12-2021, 09:39 PM

She just came out as 100 percent Italian :)

Very nice results. I'm curious to see the Gedmatch

Tacitus

03-12-2021, 09:46 PM

Varda

03-12-2021, 09:48 PM

OK, thanks for confirming you're an idiot.

Balkan Vlachs have little in common with Romanians, they are far closer to communities they're surrounded by, like Greeks, Albanians and Macedonians.

Ancestry-wise Romanians are far more related to Bulgarians and Serbs than to Aromanians or Montenegrins. The fact that current country averages put Romanians closer to Montenegrins than to Serbs is just an artifact of the higher Slavic admixture in Serbs than Romanians, which this type of modelling cannot deal with. This smaller distance between Romanians and Montenegrins is not a proof of relatedness, but it's a proof that you look at these results ideologically and still want to skew them produce something that endorses the idiotic theory of migration of Romanians .

Genetics clearly disapprove the old Hungarian theory that Romanians are some Albanian population that migrated into Transylvania - but now you have invented another imbecility: Romanians are northbound migrating Montenegrins :lol:
You're grasping at straws, it's time for you to accept the reality.

Montenegro is more mountain than other SW Slavic regions and preserved more Vlachs due to geography https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Montenegro

https://www.vijestio.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/karta-crna-gora-2.jpg

Latin speaking Vlach clans existed in Montenegro until late middle age and early new age like, Kriči, Bukumiri, Španje, Mataruge...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bukumiri
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Španje
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mataruge

Samnium

03-12-2021, 09:50 PM

It's because those Belvedere samples were from a medical paper about inherited genetic diseases, so for all we know those samples could've been from one family showing extreme drift. Hardly a representative sample for Calabria, and yet was used as *the* "South Italian" reference in Eurogenes. :rolleyes:

I understand better... These samples were surely very weird...

The south italian reference is very bad, many S.Italians are from it...

gixajo

03-12-2021, 11:33 PM

Oh Lord, finally I can agree with you! Even though I've had a lot of contempt for you for being allegedly "anti-Gedmatch".

Yes, I do think Samnium exaggerates to some extent. We have averages for every Italian region and even that is supposedly not enough. Should we have averages for every province? Some of them are very small. After all, an average is an average and you can't expect all people to match it. Hell, even siblings can score quite differently!

I have never been anti-Gedmatch, and I have told you several times, but it´s not moment for all this issue.

Samnium is also partially right in saying that the references can be improved, not only in Gedmatch but also in G25.

And Gedmatch beats the G25 on that widely, its references are easier to improve by anyone interested in doing so.

But to be able to make reliable references for large countries, you have to make many references, not only provincial, but even in smaller areas, even make references with different criteria, some based on the origins of a certain number of generations in the same area, or based on PCAs and well-defined clusters, which do not have to coincide completely with references to the same province depending on which criteria you use.

And if he complains about about the Italian or French references , what he has to do is make them himself, I don't think that the one that includes the references in the Vahaduo datasheet will have problems adding them if the samples are valid and well done.

He can gather many French and Italian references in this forum or in Anthrogenica to get started.

And if he does not have time, or is not able to do it, he can always ask for the collaboration of other people, who will surely find people who can help him.Dududud can help him, he usually posts French Gedmatch results with some frequency. In Anthrogenica there are many french too, and also I think that they are already beginning to move in that sense.

It is not a one day thing.

Flashball

03-13-2021, 03:39 AM

Sicily is the second largest Southern Italian region after Campania. Of course they are Italians. Even Sardinians speak more Italian than Sardinian according to Wikipedia.

They are close to Ashkenazi. Sicilian langugage has also more arabic thing related.

Italian is a recent thing, dude. Wake up.

Southern ''italian'' are genetically hybrid. They have a big caucasus and Iran farmer, levant neolithic, etc. Do you know these term?

Do you know something about genetic population?

Very ignorant.

Whatever. Northern italians are not hybride.

Flashball

03-13-2021, 03:46 AM

If I'm mistaken then someone should correct me, but I do have a sense that the national averages for Greeks, French, Spanish, Italians and Russians leave much to be desired on K13. Since these people are so diverse, in my opinion new averages should be created for them, in which every major region will be included into the national average in a proportionate way, based on how many percent does one region represent in the national whole. This proportionate national average could be the only one that would come close to a more representative national average. Unfortunately I don't know of any who would be up for such a task.

French are not diverse.

Go to the recent study https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/712497v2

Also, majority of your modelisation is incorrect.

I'm the only non ignorant on Apricity.

Scandal

03-13-2021, 04:25 AM

Entirely false.

There's a study published 1.5 months ago that showed that there's substructure in Calabria and that there are differences. Cosentian samples grouped with Apulian, Basilicatan, while Catazanro a bit more southern. And it's a recent study, I've plenty others. Studies from italian geneticists upon endogamy, Y-DNA studies...

And just saying, Eastern Sicily is basically Southern Calabria in all regards.

Sicilians can be a proxy of Southern Italians though in reality I would take a region like Basilicata.

Conclusion : Sicily is heterogenous, just like Calabria, and saying "Calabria is more southern than Sicily" doesn't make any sense.
Then my statement about Calabria being more southern shifted was false, not my entire post was false. Sikeliot always said Calabria was genetically more southern than Sicily and nobody tried to refute him, so I took his word for it. But ok, it's not southern shifted then and both Calabria and Sicily are "diverse". That also means Sicily is an extension of peninsular Italians genetically, or not? It doesn't make sense to create a Sicily_avarage and a "peninsular Italian" avarage seperately because southernmost peninsular Italians are far more like Sicilians in every way (genetics included) than North italians from the peninsula

Sicilians are Italians to you, but say that to them... They will laugh. They consider themselves firstly as Sicilian, which is fine. I've known many sicilians, and I have even a sicilian uncle so... (he has married my aunt)
It doesn't matter. You know well such sentiments exist in North Italy too, it's not something specific to Sicilians. Majority of Venetians I talked to said they identify with their region first and they want independence/separatism, don't see southerners as their people etc. Support for independist parties is higher in North.

Luso

03-13-2021, 04:36 AM

They are close to Ashkenazi. Sicilian langugage has also more arabic thing related.

Italian is a recent thing, dude. Wake up.

Southern ''italian'' are genetically hybrid. They have a big caucasus and Iran farmer, levant neolithic, etc. Do you know these term?

Do you know something about genetic population?

Very ignorant.

Whatever. Northern italians are not hybride.

A lot of areas of Northern Italy actually have a sizable Germanic mixture mate-- which is why a lot plot with some parts of France. So a good chunk of them are “hybrids” in that regard. If you want to argue who is more “true” italian it is not necessarily these northern Italians just bc they may lack the southern components, which BTW we saw both germanic DNA (not a lot), and even more levantine, and na mixing happening throughout periods of ancient Rome, bc of trade-- it didn't make those people any less Italian. So using your logic, any outside influence out of the Italian native genepool i.e; germanics, levantines, north africans = less Italian? If anything a small portion of Northern Italy, like Liguria, Emilia Romagna, and Tuscany, and other less germanic parts, central, and southern Italians mostly lack this Germanic influence, and most (unless you go very south) don’t have huge amounts of Levantine and NA DNA at all... so those are the most "native" italics if anything.

Grace O'Malley

03-13-2021, 05:35 AM

Interesting that Norwegians and Danish are much closer to Welsh and Irish than they are to Germans.

It isn't really. They are Northwestern European populations and the Celtic vs Germanic thing is not genetic as most of these populations have similarities going back to the bronze age. Waiting for some studies that might shed more light on Celts but the only conclusion is either Celts were more northern like and more similar to Irish, Welsh genetically or Irish and Welsh did not have much input from Celts. It is obvious already anyway as populations like the Irish and Welsh are closer to Bronze Age samples than anything Hallstatt like.

I think people have problems with understanding that much of the genetics has been in-situ since the Bronze Age so that means no mass movement of people into the Isles excepting the Anglo-Saxons in the UK. Also the Viking paper that came out said all of the Germanic input into Ireland and Scotland could be attributed to Vikings whereas in England it was a smaller input and they have a large Germanic input from Anglo-Saxons. I don't know if this is accurate myself but it is an interesting conclusion to make. It was also the conclusion of the People of the British Isles study but I think more studies need to be done as I'm not sure whether the studies are correct as I think you really need to look at pre-Viking genomes from the Isles and compare them to genomes at a later time.

This is from the supplementary paper Population Genomics of the Viking World.

UK populations all have high ‘Denmark’ ancestry. Although Anglo-Saxon and Danish Viking
ancestry are hard to distinguish, Viking-era Danes have too much ‘Sweden’ ancestry to have
contributed more than around 6% ancestry into England, whereas they could plausibly have
contributed all (up to 16%) of the Scottish and Irish signal. Anglo-Saxon samples are needed
to explore this further.
● The ‘Norway’ ancestry signal in the British Isles cannot be explained via Danish or AngloSaxon contribution. These fractions (4% in England, Scotland, and Ireland, 3% in Wales)
likely correspond to the Norwegian Viking legacy in Britain.

So the "Sweden" signal of Viking Danes could be a way to distinguish the amount of Viking vs Anglo-Saxon ancestry. I've never seen much discussion on this from anyone. I think there needs to be more studies on ancient genomes from places like Ireland and also the Viking study was lacking genomes from Western Norway. I'd also like to see some study come out with more genomes from Celtic sites in the Continent.

Samnium

03-13-2021, 07:24 AM

Then my statement about Calabria being more southern shifted was false, not my entire post was false. Sikeliot always said Calabria was genetically more southern than Sicily and nobody tried to refute him, so I took his word for it. But ok, it's not southern shifted then and both Calabria and Sicily are "diverse". That also means Sicily is an extension of peninsular Italians genetically, or not?

Sicilians cluster with Southern peninsular Italians or even Central, sometimes.

It doesn't make sense to create a Sicily_avarage and a "peninsular Italian" avarage seperately because southernmost peninsular Italians are far more like Sicilians in every way (genetics included) than North italians from the peninsula

I think it would be correct to do a single southern italian average, that includes maybe all the regions.

Leto

03-13-2021, 08:28 AM

Lemminkäinen

03-13-2021, 08:29 AM

Not so far away from mine:

Given by Dunai

Distance to: Finnish
5.07936020 Estonian
9.31302314 Belorussian
10.22933038 Russian
10.56316714 Lithuanian
10.71572209 Polish
13.12278172 Ukrainian
14.15416546 Latvian
16.29898156 Czech
17.36776612 Slovak
20.67285902 Slovenian

Me

Estonian 5.9
Polish 8.17
Belorussian 8.9
Russian_Smolensk 9.48
Estonian_Polish 9.54
South_Polish 9.62
Ukrainian 10.66
Lithuanian 10.74
North_Swedish 10.82
Kargopol_Russian 10.99
Southwest_Russian 11.22
Ukrainian_Lviv 11.44
Ukrainian_Belgorod 11.78
Erzya 14.99
East_German 15.36
Croatian 16.44

Lemminkäinen

03-13-2021, 09:16 AM

But then Vahaduo gives following results to me, excluding Finnish results

Distance to: Mm
6.64627715 Estonian
7.33992507 Polish_Masuria
9.02140787 Polish
9.82296289 Sorb_Lusatia
10.02744733 Belorussian
10.66616613 Russian_Smolensk
10.82567319 South_Polish
11.31038019 Russian_average
11.49362867 Russian_Kostroma
11.73129149 Belarusian_Minsk
12.06009121 Lithuanian
12.32563183 North-Swedish
12.50424328 Russian_Kargopol
12.68254312 Ukrainian
12.89820143 Russian_Southwest
13.05328694 Czech
13.48081971 Ukrainian_Belgorod
14.47937153 Ukrainian_Galicia
14.66439907 Slovak
14.72334541 German_East
14.87328141 Russian_Pinega
15.43757429 Moldova_Ukrainian

Dunai

03-13-2021, 10:36 AM

French are not diverse.

Go to the recent study https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/712497v2

Also, majority of your modelisation is incorrect.

I'm the only non ignorant on Apricity.

Dude, I used the current national averages to be found on Vahaduo K13, even I acknowledged that many of the Western and Southern European national averages have flaws and are in dire need of an update, but many other European nationalities have very solid national averages, done by dedicated people, so why do you dismiss the whole thing I posted just because some national modeling I posted need improvement? I even said and encouraged Western and Southern Europeans to be as dedicated as Eastern and Southeastern Europeans about this stuff. As a person driven only by objectivity and passionate about genetics I wish we would have as close as possible to an objective view on the genetic composition of every European population. But for this we need passionate people from all over Europe to do some work of research and contribute to achieve this.

Ion Basescul

03-13-2021, 01:33 PM

Northeast has more than 30% baltic on average. I'm sure that if they had more samples from there it would have tipped the scales more towards the north. Also it's funny how easy you can get summoned by anyone who claims romanians lie more north than their actual dot on the genetic map.

The national average is weighted by each county's population. If you have 2 samples for an average of 30% for one county or 200 for an average of 30%, the situation won't change.
I will update it in about one month, since right now it is based on data of up to September.

Here are the calculations:

https://i.imgur.com/0ZVJG28.png

Tenma de Pegasus

03-13-2021, 02:26 PM

Completely interesting thread

ixulescu

03-13-2021, 02:53 PM

The national average is weighted by each county's population. If you have 2 samples for an average of 30% for one county or 200 for an average of 30%, the situation won't change.

Unbelievable the amount of idiocy you spew in here. You don't understand shit about sampling.

Having only 2 samples in a county is guaranteed to result in a biased average for that county, even if you weight it for the proportion of the overall population. It's stupid to work with averages from such small samples - but this doesn't get through the thick skull of IB. Each layer in your stratified sampling should have sufficient randomization. You're not getting that with 2 samples. Not to mention that in cases where you have only 2 samples it's likely they're relatives as well, which further increases the bias.

Leto

03-13-2021, 03:00 PM

Unbelievable the amount of idiocy you spew in here. You don't understand shit about sampling.
Dude, can you just shut up? Dunai and IB have collected lots of samples putting in so much time and effort and what the fuck have you offered? Nothing! For fuck's sake, you aren't even tested yourself and don't believe in DNA testing either! Just get out of here, you can keep discussing politics, taxonomy etc. but leave genetics to others!

ixulescu

03-13-2021, 03:10 PM

Dude, can you just shut up? Dunai and IB have collected lots of samples putting in so much time and effort and what the fuck have you offered? Nothing! For fuck's sake, you aren't even tested yourself and don't believe in DNA testing either! Just get out of here, you can keep discussing politics, taxonomy etc. but leave genetics to others!

Dunai and IB better play with dick in the sand. They understand jack shit about genetics and statistics. They also carry heavy biases. Stop larping as their bitch.

I will trust their results when they'll share their data and the results can be reproduced. No data share, no trust, as simple as that.

Leto

03-13-2021, 03:20 PM

Leto

03-13-2021, 03:20 PM

ixulescu

03-13-2021, 03:31 PM

What data do you need? It's all public. I support them not because they are my friends but because in this case they have done a lot unlike you. You are clueless about genetics, please leave.

Bitch, I do medical research for a living, I analyze genomic data on a daily basis. I love it when a bunch of idiots on the net teach me genetics and statistics, go fuck yourself and your silly bunch.

I asked IB to publish the anonymized samples but he refused. He only puts out averages. Those are useless.

Leto

03-13-2021, 03:48 PM

Bitch, I do medical research for a living, I analyze genomic data on a daily basis. I love it when a bunch of idiots on the net teach me genetics and statistics, go fuck yourself and your silly bunch.

I asked IB to publish the anonymized samples but he refused. He only puts out averages. Those are useless.
Lol. They are silent to your attacks because they probably put you on the ignore list. I will not be engaging with you either.

ixulescu

03-13-2021, 03:53 PM

Lol. They are silent to your attacks because they probably put you on the ignore list. I will not be engaging with you either.

You're welcome to shut the fuck up. But that doesn't prevent me pointing out the clownish nonsense you lot spout.

Dunai

03-13-2021, 04:31 PM

Dunai and IB better play with dick in the sand. They understand jack shit about genetics and statistics. They also carry heavy biases. Stop larping as their bitch.

I will trust their results when they'll share their data and the results can be reproduced. No data share, no trust, as simple as that.

I didn't bother with county averages, because in case of Hungarians this method doesn't work so well, since there are many cases of historical counties being split after WWI between different countries, however the people stayed the same, with minor mixing. This is why I used only large historical regional clusters, and calculated the average of those. In this thread you can browse through all the individual samples how they scored, and since I posted those screenshots I added another 100-150 samples into all those regional and national averages that I didn't bother to post yet, but if there is really demand and people will ask me to post absolutely all then I can post sometime later also those. But before you start to complain and whine and put into question the integrity of my research first document yourself, read about my methodology, I was fully transparent all through this time. However even if you claim to be some sort of medical researcher, I haven't found any input from your side in anything about genetics, besides complaining from the sidelines. If you don't contribute then shut your mouth!

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?322006-The-most-ultimate-Hungarian-K13-database-thus-far

Ion Basescul

03-13-2021, 04:37 PM

I didn't bother with county averages, because in case of Hungarians this method doesn't work so well, since there are many cases of historical counties being split after WWI between different countries, however the people stayed the same, with minor mixing. This is why I used only large historical regional clusters, and calculated the average of those. In this thread you can browse through all the individual samples how they scored, and since I posted those screenshots I added another 100-150 samples into all those regional and national averages that I didn't bother to post yet, but if there is really demand and people will ask me to post absolutely all then I can post sometime later also those. But before you start to complain and whine and put into question the integrity of my research first document yourself, read about my methodology, I was fully transparent all through this time. However even if you claim to be some sort of medical researcher, I haven't found any input from your side in anything about genetics, besides complaining from the sidelines. If you don't contribute then shut your mouth!

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?322006-The-most-ultimate-Hungarian-K13-database-thus-far

The great researcher who is on record to have lost all arguments he's ever had with me. That's why I don't even bother with such a clown.

For example, in my answer to Voidspawn, I explained to him what weighting means, and in weighting it doesn't matter if one data point is based on an average of 2 or 200 samples, because they are weighted by population. But being the clown he is, he interpreted that as me suggesting that an average of 2 samples is as reliable as one of 200. Don't bother.

ixulescu

03-13-2021, 08:47 PM

The great researcher who is on record to have lost all arguments he's ever had with me. That's why I don't even bother with such a clown.

For example, in my answer to Voidspawn, I explained to him what weighting means, and in weighting it doesn't matter if one data point is based on an average of 2 or 200 samples, because they are weighted by population. But being the clown he is, he interpreted that as me suggesting that an average of 2 samples is as reliable as one of 200. Don't bother.

You can't reproduce a single sentence of mine and you think you won arguments with me. I have rarely met a more deluded individual.

Imbecile, I said it doesn't matter whether you weight the county averages or not when the county averages are shit. Somehow you think weighting is some sort of correction for your useless county averages. It isn't. Imagine you have 3 samples of 2 datapoints, each representing 1/3 of a large population (of millions), 6 datapoints in total (from your famous example). Your overall average is still going to be biased even if you weight it, your small samples (2 datapoints each) ensures that.

Normally I would say, make sure you quote me correctly. But it's obvious your peanut sized brain doesn't allow it.

Voidspawn

03-18-2021, 10:53 AM

You can't reproduce a single sentence of mine and you think you won arguments with me. I have rarely met a more deluded individual.

Imbecile, I said it doesn't matter whether you weight the county averages or not when the county averages are shit. Somehow you think weighting is some sort of correction for your useless county averages. It isn't. Imagine you have 3 samples of 2 datapoints, each representing 1/3 of a large population (of millions), 6 datapoints in total (from your famous example). Your overall average is still going to be biased even if you weight it, your small samples (2 datapoints each) ensures that.

Normally I would say, make sure you quote me correctly. But it's obvious your peanut sized brain doesn't allow it.

From what I understood from Ion Basescul, regardless of the number of samples from a county, the population dictates the average. So let's say you have a county with 500k inhabitants and 10 samples, and another one with the same 500k population but 50 samples. The average of these 10 respectively 50 samples have the same value for calculating Romanian average, right? Anyway, an average of 2 samples for an entire county is terribly low. In an uneventful cherrypicking situation I could calculate a baltic average of 35% in some south romanian county from 2 unusual samples.

As for you, you are very deluded and have an agenda in denying that Vlachs (Wallachians) were northbound South Balkan migrators. Romanians are darker than their Balkan equivalent for any latitude, and this is especially true for the south. South Romanians are closer to Macedonians than to Croats, who are on the same latitude.