Ancient genomic time transect from the Central Asian Steppe unravels the history of the Scythians [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

Kaspias

03-26-2021, 09:32 PM

Hungary Hun (Budapest, Vezér street skeleton/Zugló burial)

●Hungary Hun (TU46): 1670±22 14C years BP; 333-419 cal. AD (2-sigma)
Zugló burial was accidentally found on 1st December 1961 during construction work in the 14th district
of Budapest at the intersection of Egressy Road and Vezér-street. The excavation was carried out by
archaeologist Tibor Nagy. The grave contained the skeleton of a male individual, estimated 20-25 years old,
whose skull indicated a mixed ancestry presenting both Europoid and Mongoloid morphoscopic traits. An
upside-down placed horse skull was found next to his legs along with gold foil covered horse trappings and a
bronze and an iron bell with bell-clappers intentionally removed. The burial had several more artefacts,
probably garment ornaments, with gold recesses inlaid with garnets. Only an iron knife was found as a
weapon. It is possible that the rest of the weapons were buried nearby in a separate grave, which was
previously observed in other Hun burials. The nature of the burial indicated that the skeleton could belong to
a noble man from the Hun elite (67, 68).

Hun elite:

R1a1a1b (R-Z645)
R1a1a1b2a (R-Z94)

In other mounds of Karakaba I and Karakaba II, accompanying horse burials and sets of weapons were
also found. In two mounds also fragments of musical instruments were found. These mounds of Karakaba I
and Karakaba II belong to two successive chronological periods, the Hun-Sarmatian and the early medieval
(early Turks) period. There is a connection and continuity (succession) between two periods in their ritual
practices (for example, accompanying horse burials and the construction of mounds). Although, there are
some differences in the construction of mounds and rituals. For example, horses were buried without any
equipment and the horse equipment were deliberately placed at the feet of a buried person in a bottom pit.
These differences reflecting not different ethnocultural traditions, but rather the specifics of social
stratification and some new world outlooks of the population of the region under study in the early Middle
Ages. Findings of musical instruments in three mounds testify features of spiritual development, in particular
with regards to the role of shamanism in the life of the ancient Turkic nomadic society. Cases of trepanation
may be associated with the cult of shamanism (96).

MayemerII
●Mayemer II mound 1 (MMR001.A)
The Mayemer II burial ground is a funeral-memorial complex consisting of burials of different eras -
from the era of the early nomads to the Turkic times. The monument is located on the southeastern outskirts
of the modern village Mayemer, on the left bank of the Narym River, in the Katonkaragai district of East
Kazakhstan region.
Three mounds were investigated - 1, 2 and 3. Mounds 2 and 3 are attributed to the Early Saka period. Of
these, mound 2 turned out to be a burial (funeral) structure, and mound 3 was a memorial. Mound 1 was
plundered. The skeleton of the deceased (MMR001.A) was disturbed and the bones were scattered. There were
no accompanying items found in the mound. The chronological define of the mound 1 was made on the basis
of an analogy with the construction of the burial structure. In East Kazakhstan and adjacent territories, similar
constructions are dated by the Turkic time (82, 83).

Turkic Era Central Asia:

J2a (J-L212; J-M410)
R1a1a1b2 (R-Z93)
J(J-CTS852,J-M304)

https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/7/13/eabe4414

https://i.ibb.co/bbZxmSm/Y-DNA.png

https://i.ibb.co/D1qDgt3/fig1.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/VvcV3hx/fig2.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/Lr9Gk81/fig3.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/f8Cx3VZ/F3-large.jpg

Leto

03-26-2021, 10:10 PM

I wonder if modern Kazakhs have actual Scythian ancestry and if they do, how much.

Edgü

03-26-2021, 11:57 PM

I wonder if modern Kazakhs have actual Scythian ancestry and if they do, how much.

Too much.

Kaspias

03-27-2021, 06:40 AM

I wonder if modern Kazakhs have actual Scythian ancestry and if they do, how much.

Our findings shed new light onto the debate about the origins of the Scythian cultures. We do not find support for a western Pontic-Caspian steppe origin, which is, in fact, highly questioned by more recent historical/archeological work (1, 2). The Kazakh Steppe origin hypothesis finds instead a better correspondence with our results, but rather than finding support for one of the two extreme hypotheses, i.e., single origin with population diffusion versus multiple independent origins with only cultural transmission, we found evidence for at least two independent origins as well as population diffusion and admixture (Fig. 4B). In particular, the eastern groups are consistent with descending from a gene pool that formed as a result of a mixture between preceding local steppe_MLBA sources (which could be associated with different cultures such as Sintashta, Srubnaya, and Andronovo that are genetically homogeneous) and a specific eastern Eurasian source that was already present during the LBA in the neighboring northern Mongolia region (27).

The two previously published individuals from the Aldy-Bel culture of the Arzhan 2 site in the Tuva region fall within the main eastern Scythian genetic cluster, confirming that it was present also in the same site where the earliest Scythian burials are found (Fig. 2A). These data, coupled with recent findings from the IA transition in Mongolia (28), seem to point to an origin in the Altai area of a main genetic substratum that formed all the eastern Scythians (Fig. 4B). The western Sarmatians from the southern Ural region also formed as a result of admixture between the same three ancestral sources as the eastern Scythians (Fig. 3A). Nevertheless, the eastern Eurasian ancestry is present only in a small amount in Sarmatians (Fig. 3A). In addition, their early admixture dates (Fig. 3C) and the absence of an admixture cline between the Sarmatians and the eastern groups (Fig. 2, A, B, and D) suggest that the Sarmatians descend from a related but different LBA gene pool compared with the one that contributed to the eastern Scythians (likely differently located along an LBA admixture cline).

The heterogeneity and geographic structuring observed during the IA, the Xianbei-Hun, and the medieval periods in Kazakhstan come in strong contrast with the genetic homogeneity observed among present-day Kazakhs (fig. S5). Fine-scale haplotype-based analyses confirmed this homogeneity and showed, in line with previous findings (26), that the Kazakh gene pool is a mixture of different western and eastern Eurasian sources (table S4). Our results on the ancient populations revealed that this was a result of the very complex demographic history, with multiple layers of western and eastern Eurasian ancestries mixing through time. The admixture dates obtained for present-day Kazakhs overlap with the period when the Kazakh Khanate was established (~15th century CE; table S5). Furthermore, the gene pool of present-day Kazakhs cannot be fully modeled as a mixture of post-IA northern Xianbei-Hun and southern Kangju-related gene pools (data file S4). These findings suggest that recent events, likely enfolding during the second millennium CE, were associated with more demographic turnovers in this region that ultimately lead to the homogenization of the Kazakh gene pool as a consequence of the establishment of the Kazakh Khanate with its strict exogamic rules (21).

Going with these, it should be around 50% on average.

Kaspias

03-27-2021, 08:16 AM

I have checked the raw data availability so I can upload samples to the Gedmatch, but they apparently have not uploaded it to the ENA yet despite expressed the intention in the article.

All data needed to evaluate the conclusions in the paper are present in the paper and/or the Supplementary Materials. The newly produced aligned sequence data are deposited in the European Nucleotide Archive (ENA) with the following accession number: PRJEB42930. Haploid genotype data for the 1240K panel are available in eigenstrat format via the Edmond Data Repository of the Max Planck Society (https://edmond.mpdl.mpg.de). Additional data related to this paper may be requested from the authors.

Altaylı

03-27-2021, 09:23 AM

Eastern Scythian king and Queen:
https://siberiantimes.com/PICTURES/OTHERS/Arzhan-2/st1.jpg
https://siberiantimes.com/PICTURES/OTHERS/Arzhan-2/st2.jpg
https://siberiantimes.com/other/others/news/faces-of-siberian-tutankhamun-and-his-queen-buried-in-tuva-some-2600-years-ago-reconstructed-by-science/

According to the Siberian Times, “Siberian scientists established that people buried in the Arzhan-2 mound were - regardless of their social status - from quite a homogenous group in terms of anthropology, which combined features of the Caucasian and Mongoloid races.

Huns:

https://live.staticflickr.com/3858/14633966540_6576d048d7_z.jpg
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/03/22/17/3E88CD9400000578-0-image-a-40_1490205370544.jpg

Gokturk Khagan:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-210800666a7a38dd4aff099385989ee5.webp
https://altynadamworld.com/en/exponaty/id/511

The racial characteristics of the person are characterized by a mixed erogenoid-Mongoloid anthropological type, with a predominance of europeoid features. Reconstruction of the anthropological appearance of the kagan was carried out at the Institute of Anthropology in Moscow. The authors of the reconstruction are T.S. Baluev, E.V. Veselovskaya.

Wunjoz

03-27-2021, 09:51 AM

Eastern Scythian king and Queen:
https://siberiantimes.com/PICTURES/OTHERS/Arzhan-2/st1.jpg

This one can pass in my family line easily. My father and uncles have similar features.

RatCat

03-27-2021, 11:16 AM

350CE Hun Elite is %60 Mongoloid or it's over %60? Does Tasmola_Pazyryk have some East Eurasian too?

Kaspias

03-27-2021, 12:00 PM

350CE Hun Elite is %60 Mongoloid or it's over %60? Does Tasmola_Pazyryk have some East Eurasian too?

Tasmola(= Pazyryk Culture? -> Proto Turkic?) = 50% Khovsgol-Baykal + 50% Steppe MLBA.

Hun Elite looks like to be around ~75% East Eurasian which is equal to Altaians and neighboring Turkic speakers. Early Turkic Khanate samples have 50% to 60% EE.

So far we have almost all samples to simulate the evolution of Turkic groups, except for a Medieval Oghuz. Article supported the theory Mongols spread with Xianbei to the West(ironically Xianbei-Hun sample is also has a Turkic form though.) It also suggested that there were two different geneflow to Central Asia through ancient times, one is prolly Turkic group that shaped around the Altai Mountains under the Pazyryk culture(?) later completed inner organization in Dingling. Apparently, Eastern Scythians were those Proto-Turks what we call, and there is a direct geneflow to Saka, Tasmola, and Sargat cultures from the mentioned region.

Later, subcultures separated from the Altay/Eastern Scythians also provide a slight geneflow to the Sarmatians who contributed to Western Scythians. That makes it possible to say, at least the ruling class or what you can call the "culture provider" of Scythians, were Turks. However, the dominant admixture in the Western parts was BMAC-related and it was Pazyryk/Altaic-related in the Eastern.

Back on the track, the article mentions a 2nd Eastern influx that took place following the Xiongnu period that is apparently arriving of Mongols. The influx began to spread West after the migration of Huns to the West, so the Mongol Huns theory is pretty much debunked while a Turkic/Yeniseian confederation seems the most likely. In this sense, I believe it is safe to say the earliest Turkic groups have a varying degree of East Eurasian which changes according to how much Steppe_MLBA they acquired. Later, these people also contacted Yeniseians -Native Siberians, let's say- even before than Mongols, and possibly melted a great majority of them under their name. Since that time period to the late medieval, a continuing BMAC and Persian-related geneflow started to influence the Turkic world. This is what we see in DA89, for example.

There might be some conclusions regarding the origin of Oghuz, also. Since it is proven that Saka has the Altaic origin -later merged with BMAC gene flow- and Saka samples bear varying degrees of "Proto-Turkic" admixture that changes according to their geographical location, at least one layer of Oghuz(within 3) probably has Saka origin. The second might have Kimak origin that is a continuum of "Xiongnu Turkicness", and while the rest were native communities of Western Siberia, East of the Ural who headed to Southern, the Western Kazakhstan Steppe in Medieval.

Jana

03-27-2021, 12:06 PM

Sargat culture is most likely proto Ugric/Magyar culture, and it's mostly N1c followed with some Q and G, and only one R1a.
This support most widely accepted theory about Uralic origin of earliest Magyars.

Leto

03-27-2021, 12:13 PM

But the Kazakhs have a great deal of Mongol ancestry (post 1200), don't they? I mean their Y DNA is like 60% C.

Kaspias

03-27-2021, 12:21 PM

But the Kazakhs have a great deal of Mongol ancestry (post 1200), don't they? I mean their Y DNA is like 60% C.

Yes, they do. Except for their Mongolian ancestry as well as Persian-related gene flow acquired in Medieval, the rest of their ancestry(~50%) can be considered as Scythian. We do not see the same ratio in autosomal as we see in Y-DNA.

https://i.ibb.co/7XKV6Qh/kazaklar.png

Leto

03-27-2021, 12:26 PM

Yes, they do. Except for their Mongolian ancestry as well as Persian-related gene flow acquired in Medieval, the rest of their ancestry(~50%) can be considered as Scythian. We do not see the same ratio in autosomal as we see in Y-DNA.

[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/7XKV6Qh/kazaklar.png
I see. Yeah, the Kyrgyz are even more Mongoloid, sometimes 70% but their Y DNA is drastically different (50-60% R1a-Z93).

I guess that Persian-related geneflow was going mainly in the direction of modern Tajikistan/Uzbekistan though (Transoxania).

Halgurd

03-27-2021, 04:12 PM

Finally they've found E-V13 in Central Asia 1700ybp. My great grandfather.

andre

03-27-2021, 11:29 PM

So, this should be a good model for central asian people?

MNG_Khovsgol_BA,0.0479808,-0.3330937,0.0813422,0.0202496,-0.0764165,-0.0283612,-0.0030188,-0.0044198,0.0013844,-0.0044858,-0.0187622,-0.0040002,0.0030076,-0.0199763,0.0061181,0.0018562,-0.0031092,9.6e-06,0.0020015,0.0126599,-0.0325482,0.0075238,-0.0082481,-0.0047087,0.0002211
RUS_Sintashta_MLBA,0.125433,0.116075,0.0576869,0.0 787689,0.0113968,0.0284096,0.0056636,0.0042383,-0.0176231,-0.028034,-0.0025766,0.0013488,-0.0032061,-0.0215196,0.0225975,0.0126579,-0.004885,0.0004476,-0.0002933,-0.0006753,-0.0061142,0.0023618,0.0026497,0.007033,-0.0041074
RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N,0.0162197,-0.4440402,0.0722185,-0.0511148,-0.0373912,-0.0395328,0.0034075,0.0084802,0.0064935,0.019408,-0.048595,-0.004833,-0.0030848,0.0086702,-0.0096025,-0.0133915,-0.0007825,0.0089,0.0174408,0.0100362,0.008828,-0.027729,-0.0174702,-0.00244,-0.0145795
TKM_Gonur1_BA,0.0800553,0.080227,-0.115022,0.0036607,-0.0996083,0.023148,0.0102623,-0.0063843,-0.062857,-0.039606,-0.004114,0.001099,-0.0046087,-0.0050003,0.0213533,0.014143,-0.0131687,0.002449,0.0085893,-0.0297223,0.001456,-0.0162397,-0.0067377,-0.0189987,0.0145297

Target: Saka_Tian_Shan
Distance: 1.7657% / 0.01765728
49.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
31.8 MNG_Khovsgol_BA
18.6 TKM_Gonur1_BA

Target: Sarmatian_RUS_Caspian_steppe
Distance: 2.4689% / 0.02468940
70.2 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
16.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA
13.8 MNG_Khovsgol_BA

Target: Kazakh
Distance: 2.6132% / 0.02613202
43.2 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
25.4 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
19.8 MNG_Khovsgol_BA
11.6 TKM_Gonur1_BA

Target: Turkmen
Distance: 3.7201% / 0.03720072
38.4 TKM_Gonur1_BA
34.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
27.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

If this model it's valid on G25 too, early turk from nowadays Mongolia were not that homogeneous.
106646

Black Wolf

03-28-2021, 01:40 AM

Here is a description of the Y-DNA J2a sample from the Turkic period Karakaba site.

``Mound №9 presents two pits (entrance pit and bottom pit). In the entrance pit there was an
accompanying burial of a horse. An adult man (KKB001) was buried with his head oriented east in the bottom
pit. A trepanation hole was found on the skull. The buried man lay on a mat (underlay) of barks and coniferous
branches. A waist bag made of leather was found below the elbow. A wooden bowl and a wooden dish were
found to the left of the skeleton. On the dish were found a vertebrae tail, ribs and the shoulder blades of a
horse, as well as the vertebrae of small cattle. To the right of the skeleton were placed a set of weapons: a
bow, a saber, a quiver with iron arrowheads. Under the bow several layers of large fragments of dense brown
silk were found. A bridle set and a wooden saddle, a bronze clip, a buckle with fragments of leather belt, silver
plaques with gilding, iron stirrups were placed at the feet of the buried man.``

Dr_Maul

03-28-2021, 02:37 AM

Finally they've found E-V13 in Central Asia 1700ybp. My great grandfather.

Don't forget the glorious J2 they have found here
once again it seems this lineage is at the forefront of all cultures and civilizations
Ashina Clan J2 is the next update we will see (my prediction)

Lucas

03-28-2021, 01:16 PM

Hungary Hun (TU46): 1670±22 14C years BP; 333-419 cal. AD (2-sigma)

Zugló burial was accidentally found on 1st December 1961 during construction work in the 14th district
of Budapest at the intersection of Egressy Road and Vezér-street. The excavation was carried out by
archaeologist Tibor Nagy. The grave contained the skeleton of a male individual, estimated 20-25 years old,
whose skull indicated a mixed ancestry presenting both Europoid and Mongoloid morphoscopic traits. An
upside-down placed horse skull was found next to his legs along with gold foil covered horse trappings and a
bronze and an iron bell with bell-clappers intentionally removed. The burial had several more artefacts,
probably garment ornaments, with gold recesses inlaid with garnets. Only an iron knife was found as a
weapon. It is possible that the rest of the weapons were buried nearby in a separate grave, which was
previously observed in other Hun burials. The nature of the burial indicated that the skeleton could belong to
a noble man from the Hun elite (67, 68).

K36

Amerindian 1,88
East_Asian 16,10
East_Central_Asian 20,68
East_Central_Euro 1,43
Eastern_Euro 3,49
Fennoscandian 2,99
Malayan 2,14
North_Sea 1,80
Oceanian 0,03
Omotic 0,14
Siberian 29,91
South_Central_Asian 9,84
South_Chinese 5,11
Volga-Ural 4,46

Distance to: Hungary_Hun
0.93562846 Kazakh_China
0.97531939 Kirghiz_China
1.02880717 Kirghiz
1.15355005 Kirghiz_Pamir
1.17786461 Kazakh
1.27964227 Altaian
1.30551113 Kalmyk
1.40418318 Tubalar
1.49489490 Mongol
1.52961559 Karakalpak

Distance: 3.7879% / 3.78794500
Target: Hungary_Hun
26.9 Shor
13.9 Nanai
12.2 Oroqen
11.8 Han_Henan
9.7 Baloch_IR
8.5 Even-Magadan
7.1 Mari
6.4 Korean
2.0 Sumatra_Batak_Toba
0.9 Khanty
0.3 Chipeweyan_Canada
0.3 Even-Sakha

Distance: 5.2512% / 5.25120588
Target: Hungary_Hun | ADC: 0.25x
44.1 Mongol_QH
36.1 Shor
10.2 Tubalar
2.8 Baloch_IR
2.4 Kom
2.2 Kirghiz_China
2.2 Oroqen

Distance: 7.1267% / 7.12665283
Target: Hungary_Hun | ADC: 0.5x
37.6 Kazakh_China
27.6 Tubalar
17.3 Mongol_QH
12.1 Kirghiz_China
5.4 Shor

K13

Components %
North_Atlantic 0,00
Baltic 14,25
West_Med 0,00
West_Asian 4,47
East_Med 0,00
Red_Sea 1,23
South_Asian 3,44
East_Asian 31,24
Siberian 39,55
Amerindian 5,31
Oceanian 0,51
Northeast_African 0,00
Sub-Saharan 0,00

Dodecad K12b
Components %
Gedrosia 7,55
Siberian 28,76
Northwest_African 0,00
Southeast_Asian 5,66
Atlantic_Med 2,60
North_European 12,58
South_Asian 3,52
East_African 0,00
Southwest_Asian 0,50
East_Asian 36,56
Caucasus 0,00
Sub_Saharan 2,28

Kaspias

03-28-2021, 03:14 PM

.

How many SNPs?

Lucas

03-28-2021, 05:30 PM

How many SNPs?

K13

SNPs used for the calculation: 38044
SNPs in calculator: 182705
Genotype ratio: 20,82%

Kaspias

03-28-2021, 06:35 PM

Turkic samples:

KKB01,14.19,22.96,0,1.56,6.30,20.65,2.75,0.07,0.03 ,24.96,5.60,0.93
KKB02,12.79,27.20,0,1.58,8.34,20.74,0.40,0,0,24.02 ,4.54,0.38
MMR01,14.58,23.33,1.28,1.37,3.17,16.57,3.78,0,2.14 ,28.94,4.71,0.13

KKB01

Component %
Gedrosia 14,19%
Siberian 22,96%
Southeast_Asian 1,56%
Atlantic_Med 6,30%
North_European 20,65%
South_Asian 2,75%
East_African 0,07%
Southwest_Asian 0,03%
East_Asian 24,96%
Caucasus 5,60%
Sub_Saharan 0,93%

Distance to: KKB01
8.71360431 Karakalpak
8.74605054 Tubalar
9.50895893 Nogai_Astrakhan
10.74470567 Nogai_Stavropol
10.85647272 Altaian_Chelkan
11.60340898 Tatar_Siberia
12.32123776 Kazakh
13.53910632 Bashkir_South
13.89232882 Shor
14.15302441 Kyrgyz_Pamir
15.11488670 Uyghur
15.35451725 Turkmen_Afghanistan
15.57493499 Uzbeki
16.42012485 Kyrgyz
16.54264187 Hazara
17.61366515 Khakass
17.62610848 Uzbek
20.25431065 Crimean_Tatar_Steppe
20.31317799 Altaian_Telengit
20.85404997 Altaian_Kizhi
21.76029641 Tatar_Zabolotniye
23.32369396 Bashkir_Central
23.62953237 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
24.95902442 Lipka_Tatar
28.31050159 Kalmyk

KKB02

Component %
Gedrosia 12,79%
Siberian 27,20%
Southeast_Asian 1,58%
Atlantic_Med 8,34%
North_European 20,74%
South_Asian 0,40%
East_Asian 24,02%
Caucasus 4,54%
Sub_Saharan 0,38%

Distance to: KKB02
6.43001555 Tubalar
8.40672945 Altaian_Chelkan
10.14225813 Nogai_Astrakhan
10.50928161 Tatar_Siberia
10.96474806 Shor
11.19807126 Karakalpak
12.82994934 Kazakh
13.08621794 Bashkir_South
13.13882034 Nogai_Stavropol
14.59913354 Khakass
15.21656334 Kyrgyz_Pamir
17.03356099 Kyrgyz
18.25999179 Altaian_Telengit
18.44858531 Altaian_Kizhi
18.46561940 Turkmen_Afghanistan
18.89940740 Tatar_Zabolotniye
19.52596476 Uzbeki
19.68787698 Uyghur
20.54092744 Hazara
21.54345840 Uzbek
22.16084385 Crimean_Tatar_Steppe
23.39005772 Bashkir_Central
26.40956266 Lipka_Tatar
26.61201420 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
27.32692079 Kalmyk

MMR01

Component %
Gedrosia 14,58%
Siberian 23,33%
Northwest_African 1,28%
Southeast_Asian 1,37%
Atlantic_Med 3,17%
North_European 16,57%
South_Asian 3,78%
Southwest_Asian 2,14%
East_Asian 28,94%
Caucasus 4,71%
Sub_Saharan 0,13%

Distance to: MMR01
8.50431067 Karakalpak
9.29854290 Kazakh
9.37751033 Kyrgyz_Pamir
10.18342771 Tubalar
10.66683177 Nogai_Astrakhan
11.03126013 Nogai_Stavropol
11.85189858 Kyrgyz
12.26336006 Uyghur
12.59224364 Altaian_Chelkan
12.63712784 Hazara
14.84458150 Shor
16.10135398 Khakass
16.63053818 Uzbeki
16.77252515 Altaian_Telengit
17.19005817 Tatar_Siberia
17.37332438 Turkmen_Afghanistan
17.74183192 Altaian_Kizhi
19.46026464 Uzbek
19.77731529 Bashkir_South
23.71860240 Kalmyk
25.02593655 Crimean_Tatar_Steppe
25.09695201 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
25.37768508 Mongol_Uuld
26.07680003 Tatar_Zabolotniye
27.05974316 Mongol_Khalkh

Leto

03-28-2021, 06:47 PM

So those 3 individuals are basically 50-52% East Eurasian/Mongoloid.

Kaspias

03-28-2021, 06:49 PM

So those 3 individuals are basically 50-52% East Eurasian/Mongoloid.

Yes, like other Medieval Turkic samples except for outliers. That amount of East Eurasian seems to be fixed in that time period.

Leto

03-28-2021, 06:52 PM

Yes, like other Medieval Turkic samples except for outliers. That amount of East Eurasian seems to be fixed in that time period.
I'm curious how much the early Bulgars would have had. Around the year 700 for example. Probably something like those Huns.

Altaylı

03-28-2021, 07:03 PM

I'm curious how much the early Bulgars would have had. Around the year 700 for example. Probably something like those Huns.

https://scontent.fesb2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/126833995_138554648023603_2428660607006888020_o.jp g?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=FHIqc5GLHgUAX_V7L_R&_nc_ht=scontent.fesb2-1.fna&oh=8b5e83ec2630e54f52c41875ba25186b&oe=6087321E
probably like this but i am not sure.

Dr_Maul

03-28-2021, 07:09 PM

What did they even use to calculate increased Persian admixture tho?

Leto

03-28-2021, 07:10 PM

[img]https://scontent.fesb2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/126833995_138554648023603_2428660607006888020_o.jp g?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=FHIqc5GLHgUAX_V7L_R&_nc_ht=scontent.fesb2-1.fna&oh=8b5e83ec2630e54f52c41875ba25186b&oe=6087321E
probably like this but i am not sure.
Yeah, I've seen that sample. It's very European 32% NE, 10% AM.

Distance to: Nomad
4.96858129 Bashkir_South
7.55230428 Bashkir_Central
8.62320706 Tatar_Siberia
12.99991923 Bashkir_North
14.55041924 Lipka_Tatar
14.92531072 Crimean_Tatar_Steppe
16.51393957 Tatar_Kazan
16.54045042 Besermyan_Udmurtia
16.99782633 Tatar_Zabolotniye
17.07370786 Mari

Target: Nomad
Distance: 2.2973% / 2.29729605 | ADC: 0.25x RC
54.8 Bashkir_South
36.4 Bashkir_Central
6.3 Nogai_Astrakhan
2.5 Spanish_Basque

Target: Nomad
Distance: 2.7370% / 2.73700537 | ADC: 0.5x RC
64.3 Bashkir_South
28.1 Bashkir_Central
7.6 Lipka_Tatar

Kaspias

03-28-2021, 07:38 PM

I'm curious how much the early Bulgars would have had. Around the year 700 for example. Probably something like those Huns.

DA142 seems to be the closest sample to Oghur, theoretically.

What did they even use to calculate increased Persian admixture tho?

Haji Firuz ChL & IA.

Zoro

03-28-2021, 07:51 PM

What did they even use to calculate increased Persian admixture tho?

G25 and Gedmatch :) because that’s how we measure E.Asian in Persians and Kurds

Dr_Maul

03-28-2021, 08:07 PM

Haji Firuz ChL & IA.

Neither of which are actually Persian, nice...
well, idk what Hajj Firuz & Hasanlu IA are, I thought they were Median before

Peterski

03-28-2021, 08:23 PM

Distance to: Hungary_Hun
0.93562846 Kazakh_China
0.97531939 Kirghiz_China
1.02880717 Kirghiz
1.15355005 Kirghiz_Pamir
1.17786461 Kazakh
(...)

With my averages he gets:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
KGZ_Naryn-Region
0.8072750
CN_Yili-Kazakh
0.9366819
CN_Kizilsu-Kyrgyz
0.9755481
KGZ_Bishkek
1.1200661
KGZ_Osh-Region
1.1412305
KZ_East-Kazakhstan
1.1935351
(...)

^^^ And so on, et cetera...

So closer to beautiful Naryn than to Kazakhs from China: :)

https://minzifatravel.com/images/tour/kyrgyzstan/naryn-gal.jpg

https://minzifatravel.com/images/tour/kyrgyzstan/naryn-gal.jpg

Leto

03-28-2021, 08:28 PM

With my averages he gets:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
KGZ_Naryn-Region
0.8072750
KGZ_Kyrgyzstan:Avg
0.9185837
CN_Yili-Kazakh
0.9366819
CN_Kizilsu-Kyrgyz
0.9755481
KGZ_Bishkek
1.1200661
KGZ_Osh-Region
1.1412305
KZ_East-Kazakhstan
1.1935351
(...)
How much Mongoloid are those Kyrgyz regions? Can you post their total Mongoloid scores?

Zoro

03-29-2021, 02:12 AM

What did they even use to calculate increased Persian admixture tho?

These are from the paper's supplement table S4. Looks like they used qpAdm and various Iranic and proxies such as BMAC, Turan, Iran-Chl and Armenia-LBA.

Sorted by highest p-value

<colgroup width="247"></colgroup> <colgroup width="132"></colgroup> <colgroup width="172"></colgroup> <colgroup width="151"></colgroup> <colgroup width="89"></colgroup> <colgroup width="132"></colgroup> <colgroup width="89" span="2"></colgroup> <tbody>
Target
E.Asian/Siberian
Steppe
Iranic
P-value
E.Asian/Siberian
Steppe
Iranic

Wusun_TianShan_300BCE
Okunevo
Steppe_MLBA_west
BMAC
0.55
30.7%
38.4%
30.9%

Wusun_TianShan_300BCE
Okunevo
Steppe_MLBA_west
Post-BMAC
0.52
30.9%
37.4%
31.6%

Wusun_TianShan_300BCE
Okunevo
Steppe_MLBA_central
BMAC
0.48
28.6%
40.2%
31.3%

Wusun_TianShan_300BCE
Okunevo
Steppe_MLBA_central
Post-BMAC
0.43
28.9%
39.3%
31.8%

Wusun_TianShan_300BCE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_central
Turan_ChL
0.40
19.6%
51.2%
29.2%

</tbody>
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<colgroup width="247"></colgroup> <colgroup width="132"></colgroup> <colgroup width="172"></colgroup> <colgroup width="151"></colgroup> <colgroup width="89"></colgroup> <colgroup width="132"></colgroup> <colgroup width="89" span="2"></colgroup> <tbody>
Target
E.Asian/Siberian
Steppe
Iranic
P-value
E.Asian/Siberian
Steppe
Iranic

Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_west
Armenia_LBA.SG
0.61
31.0%
23.9%
45.0%

Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Khovsgol
Steppe_MLBA_west
Armenia_LBA.SG
0.61
33.0%
21.2%
45.7%

Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_central
Armenia_LBA.SG
0.60
30.4%
23.6%
46.0%

Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Khovsgol
Steppe_MLBA_central
Armenia_LBA.SG
0.57
32.4%
20.7%
46.9%

</tbody>
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Zoro

03-29-2021, 02:20 AM

The Iranic admixture percent is the last column all the way to the right. From the paper's supplement table S4

<colgroup width="247"></colgroup> <colgroup width="132"></colgroup> <colgroup width="172"></colgroup> <colgroup width="151"></colgroup> <colgroup width="89"></colgroup> <colgroup width="132"></colgroup> <colgroup width="89" span="2"></colgroup> <tbody>
Target
E.Asian/Siberian
Steppe
Iranic
P-value
E.Asian/Siberian
Steppe
Iranic

Pub_Saka_TianShan_200BCE
Khovsgol
Steppe_MLBA_west
Post-BMAC
0.82
28.1%
49.4%
22.6%

Pub_Saka_TianShan_200BCE
Khovsgol
Steppe_MLBA_west
Turan_ChL
0.82
28.7%
51.0%
20.3%

Pub_Saka_TianShan_200BCE
Khovsgol
Steppe_MLBA_west
BMAC
0.82
27.7%
49.9%
22.4%

Pub_Saka_TianShan_200BCE
Khovsgol
Steppe_MLBA_central
Post-BMAC
0.81
26.3%
51.2%
22.6%

Pub_Saka_TianShan_200BCE
Khovsgol
Steppe_MLBA_central
Turan_ChL
0.81
26.8%
52.9%
20.3%

Pub_Saka_TianShan_200BCE
Khovsgol
Steppe_MLBA_central
BMAC
0.79
25.9%
51.5%
22.6%

Pub_Saka_TianShan_200BCE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_central
Post-BMAC
0.73
24.9%
52.3%
22.8%

Pub_Saka_TianShan_200BCE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_west
Post-BMAC
0.71
26.6%
50.5%
22.9%

Pub_Saka_TianShan_200BCE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_central
Turan_ChL
0.69
25.5%
54.1%
20.4%

Pub_Saka_TianShan_200BCE
DevilsCave_N
Afanasievo
Caucasus_BA
0.69
20.4%
60.3%
19.3%

Pub_Saka_TianShan_200BCE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_west
BMAC
0.67
26.3%
51.0%
22.7%

Pub_Saka_TianShan_200BCE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_central
BMAC
0.67
24.6%
52.6%
22.8%

Pub_Saka_TianShan_200BCE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_west
Turan_ChL
0.65
27.2%
52.2%
20.6%

</tbody>
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RicoSuave

03-29-2021, 02:24 AM

How much Neolithic Farmers does Uyghurs have?

Zoro

03-29-2021, 03:01 AM

These are from the paper's supplement table S4. Looks like they used qpAdm and various Iranic and proxies such as BMAC, Turan, Iran-Chl and Armenia-LBA.

Sorted by highest p-value

<colgroup width="247"></colgroup> <colgroup width="132"></colgroup> <colgroup width="172"></colgroup> <colgroup width="151"></colgroup> <colgroup width="89"></colgroup> <colgroup width="132"></colgroup> <colgroup width="89" span="2"></colgroup> <tbody>
Target
E.Asian/Siberian
Steppe
Iranic
P-value
E.Asian/Siberian
Steppe
Iranic

Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_central
Iran_ChL
0.75
47.0%
37.9%
15.2%

Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_central
BMAC
0.62
44.8%
42.8%
12.4%

Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_central
Post-BMAC
0.59
44.9%
42.5%
12.5%

Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Khovsgol
Steppe_MLBA_central
BMAC
0.58
47.4%
40.8%
11.8%

Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Khovsgol
Steppe_MLBA_west
BMAC
0.46
49.0%
39.4%
11.7%

Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_west
BMAC
0.43
46.3%
41.3%
12.5%

</tbody>
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Chelubey

03-29-2021, 05:58 AM

Tasmola(= Pazyryk Culture? -> Proto Turkic?) = 50% Khovsgol-Baykal + 50% Steppe MLBA.

Hun Elite looks like to be around ~75% East Eurasian which is equal to Altaians and neighboring Turkic speakers. Early Turkic Khanate samples have 50% to 60% EE.

So far we have almost all samples to simulate the evolution of Turkic groups, except for a Medieval Oghuz. Article supported the theory Mongols spread with Xianbei to the West(ironically Xianbei-Hun sample is also has a Turkic form though.) It also suggested that there were two different geneflow to Central Asia through ancient times, one is prolly Turkic group that shaped around the Altai Mountains under the Pazyryk culture(?) later completed inner organization in Dingling. Apparently, Eastern Scythians were those Proto-Turks what we call, and there is a direct geneflow to Saka, Tasmola, and Sargat cultures from the mentioned region.

Later, subcultures separated from the Altay/Eastern Scythians also provide a slight geneflow to the Sarmatians who contributed to Western Scythians. That makes it possible to say, at least the ruling class or what you can call the "culture provider" of Scythians, were Turks. However, the dominant admixture in the Western parts was BMAC-related and it was Pazyryk/Altaic-related in the Eastern.

Back on the track, the article mentions a 2nd Eastern influx that took place following the Xiongnu period that is apparently arriving of Mongols. The influx began to spread West after the migration of Huns to the West, so the Mongol Huns theory is pretty much debunked while a Turkic/Yeniseian confederation seems the most likely. In this sense, I believe it is safe to say the earliest Turkic groups have a varying degree of East Eurasian which changes according to how much Steppe_MLBA they acquired. Later, these people also contacted Yeniseians -Native Siberians, let's say- even before than Mongols, and possibly melted a great majority of them under their name. Since that time period to the late medieval, a continuing BMAC and Persian-related geneflow started to influence the Turkic world. This is what we see in DA89, for example.

There might be some conclusions regarding the origin of Oghuz, also. Since it is proven that Saka has the Altaic origin -later merged with BMAC gene flow- and Saka samples bear varying degrees of "Proto-Turkic" admixture that changes according to their geographical location, at least one layer of Oghuz(within 3) probably has Saka origin. The second might have Kimak origin that is a continuum of "Xiongnu Turkicness", and while the rest were native communities of Western Siberia, East of the Ural who headed to Southern, the Western Kazakhstan Steppe in Medieval.

On the whole, you paint an adequate picture.
I would like to add here my mini study of the Cimmerians.
They were 50% Eastern Eurasian and had hg Q.
There are two known names of the leaders of the Cimmerians. These are Sandakhshatra (Sandakkuru) and Dugdamme (Ligdam (is)).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians
Some researchers pay attention to the Indo-Aryan sound of the name Sandakhshatra. However, they do not pay attention to the fact that it has a religious (Buddhist) connotation.
Sandak is the surname of some saint in Buddhism. Kshatru - "noble"(Sanskrit). Apparently in the second version (Sandakuru) - kuru == guru - master,teacher (Sanskrit).
This name (Sandak) is very common among Mongol Buddhists.
The second name (Ligdam(is)) is probably related to the Mongolian name Ligdan and is of Tibetan origin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligdan_Khan.
The only problem with this version is that Buddhism,
is believed, to have originated in the middle of the 1st millennium BC. However, recently, scientists have found artifacts related to the cult of the Buddha, which date back to the 2nd millennium BC and they do not know how to interpret this. Judging by their names and the cult of Buddha, I would call the Cimmerians Mongols, but judging by their genetics, they were Turkic-speaking.
Conan the Barbarian was to be played by Jackie Chan, not Arnie.

Chelubey

03-29-2021, 05:59 AM

Who can adjust the font size?

Lucas

03-29-2021, 10:50 AM

Who can adjust the font size?

It's Zoro, he always shrinks font size when he enters discussion:)

https://www.zorro.com/wp-content/uploads/cc_resize/005-1200x542.jpg

andre

03-29-2021, 11:44 AM

These are from the paper's supplement table S4. Looks like they used qpAdm and various Iranic and proxies such as BMAC, Turan, Iran-Chl and Armenia-LBA.

Sorted by highest p-value

<colgroup width="247"></colgroup> <colgroup width="132"></colgroup> <colgroup width="172"></colgroup> <colgroup width="151"></colgroup> <colgroup width="89"></colgroup> <colgroup width="132"></colgroup> <colgroup width="89" span="2"></colgroup> <tbody>
Target
E.Asian/Siberian
Steppe
Iranic
P-value
E.Asian/Siberian
Steppe
Iranic

Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_central
Iran_ChL
0.75
47.0%
37.9%
15.2%

Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_central
BMAC
0.62
44.8%
42.8%
12.4%

Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_central
Post-BMAC
0.59
44.9%
42.5%
12.5%

Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Khovsgol
Steppe_MLBA_central
BMAC
0.58
47.4%
40.8%
11.8%

Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Khovsgol
Steppe_MLBA_west
BMAC
0.46
49.0%
39.4%
11.7%

Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_west
BMAC
0.43
46.3%
41.3%
12.5%

</tbody>
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P value should be close to 0.30? So 0.43 it’s ok but 0.75 it’s a failed model, Right?

Zoro

03-29-2021, 12:05 PM

P value should be close to 0.30? So 0.43 it’s ok but 0.75 it’s a failed model, Right?

No, the higher the better. Most consider >0.05 can’t reject model (meaning good) but personally I like >0.2

Zoro

03-29-2021, 02:18 PM

These are from the paper's supplement table S4. Looks like they used qpAdm and various Iranic and proxies such as BMAC, Turan, Iran-Chl and Armenia-LBA.

Sorted by highest p-value

<tbody>
Target
E.Asian/Siberian
Steppe
Iranic
P-value
E.Asian/Siberian
Steppe
Iranic

Wusun_TianShan_300BCE
Okunevo
Steppe_MLBA_west
BMAC
0.55
30.7%
38.4%
30.9%

Wusun_TianShan_300BCE
Okunevo
Steppe_MLBA_west
Post-BMAC
0.52
30.9%
37.4%
31.6%

Wusun_TianShan_300BCE
Okunevo
Steppe_MLBA_central
BMAC
0.48
28.6%
40.2%
31.3%

Wusun_TianShan_300BCE
Okunevo
Steppe_MLBA_central
Post-BMAC
0.43
28.9%
39.3%
31.8%

Wusun_TianShan_300BCE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_central
Turan_ChL
0.40
19.6%
51.2%
29.2%

</tbody>
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<tbody>
Target
E.Asian/Siberian
Steppe
Iranic
P-value
E.Asian/Siberian
Steppe
Iranic

Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_west
Armenia_LBA.SG
0.61
31.0%
23.9%
45.0%

Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Khovsgol
Steppe_MLBA_west
Armenia_LBA.SG
0.61
33.0%
21.2%
45.7%

Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_central
Armenia_LBA.SG
0.60
30.4%
23.6%
46.0%

Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Khovsgol
Steppe_MLBA_central
Armenia_LBA.SG
0.57
32.4%
20.7%
46.9%

</tbody>
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For comparison. I highlighted blue the model I think is most likely

<colgroup width="247"></colgroup> <colgroup width="132"></colgroup> <colgroup width="172"></colgroup> <colgroup width="151"></colgroup> <colgroup width="89"></colgroup> <colgroup width="132"></colgroup> <colgroup width="89" span="2"></colgroup> <tbody>
Target
E.Asian/Siberian
Steppe
Iranic
P-value
E.Asian/Siberian
Steppe
Iranic

Alai_Nura_300CE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_west
Post-BMAC
0.65
33.6%
41.7%
24.7%

Alai_Nura_300CE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_west
BMAC
0.64
33.5%
41.8%
24.7%

Alai_Nura_300CE
Khovsgol
Steppe_MLBA_central
BMAC
0.62
34.0%
41.3%
24.7%

Alai_Nura_300CE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_central
BMAC
0.48
32.1%
43.2%
24.7%

Alai_Nura_300CE
Baikal_EBA
Steppe_MLBA_central
Post-BMAC
0.47
32.2%
43.1%
24.7%

Alai_Nura_300CE
DevilsCave_N
Yamnaya_Samara
Caucasus_BA
0.45
27.8%
48.2%
24.0%

Alai_Nura_300CE
Khovsgol
Steppe_MLBA_west
Turan_ChL
0.44
36.3%
41.8%
21.9%

</tbody>
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Ajeje Brazorf

03-30-2021, 06:04 AM

Scaled Global25 coordinates:

HUN_Hun_elite_Antiquity:HUN001,0.053497,-0.307705,0.050157,-0.007752,-0.044008,-0.011992,-0.00141,0.009923,0.003886,-0.012574,-0.021273,0.003297,0.014717,-0.015138,0.001357,0.01074,0.011083,-0.002534,0.006788,0.018134,-0.007487,0.011376,-0.005053,0.011568,0.003712
KAZ_Karakaba_MA:KKB001,0.069432,-0.166547,0.050911,0.024871,-0.045855,-0.006972,0.003995,0.005538,-0.016157,-0.006378,-0.013803,-0.002098,0.000743,-0.015827,0.0076,0.015115,0.00326,0.001774,0.002011 ,0.008754,-0.015722,0.001237,-0.010969,-0.00241,-0.001437
KAZ_Karakaba_MA:KKB002,0.079676,-0.176702,0.058077,0.014535,-0.048624,-0.010319,0.00047,0.002538,-0.01493,-0.006925,-0.016401,0.002997,-0.003271,-0.021744,0.009636,0.009546,0.009518,0.002407,0,0.0 1088,-0.022086,0.008532,-0.008627,0.005663,-0.007305
KAZ_Kayalyk_MA:KLK002,0.034147,-0.38387,0.090132,-0.022933,-0.072321,-0.045738,0.023501,0.022845,0.001841,0.017677,-0.025982,0.001349,0.000149,0.006606,0.010179,0.000 796,-0.008866,-0.000887,0.012696,0.026012,-0.023958,-0.017435,-0.036728,0.001325,0.000239
KAZ_Korgantas_IA:BDY003,0.083091,-0.113739,0.057322,0.044574,-0.031698,0.001116,0.004935,0.005769,-0.006545,-0.010023,-0.026469,-0.003297,0.002379,-0.029176,0.005972,0.009281,0.000652,-0.007728,-0.005782,-0.00025,-0.02271,0.008656,0.000739,0.016026,0.008263
KAZ_Korgantas_IA_o1:BDY001,0.063741,-0.203106,0.055437,0.012274,-0.057857,-0.013108,0.00893,0.014538,-0.000818,-0.003098,-0.015102,-0.002698,0.003865,-0.01101,0.00855,-0.00358,-0.01343,0.000633,0.001006,0.007629,-0.021213,0.00507,-0.006779,-0.004579,-0.001078
KAZ_Korgantas_IA_o2:KBO001,0.045529,-0.388948,0.088246,-0.014535,-0.077861,-0.046854,0.00799,0.025845,0.011862,0.004191,-0.015589,0.000899,-0.001487,0.001789,-0.00095,0.000663,-0.002347,-0.00266,-0.001383,0.011255,-0.023209,0.002473,-0.012078,-0.005904,0.001437
KAZ_Kurayly_Hun_elite_Antiquity:KRY001,0.056912,-0.302628,0.069013,-0.009367,-0.057241,-0.020917,0.001645,0.001385,0.011249,-0.006014,-0.030854,-0.007643,-0.001338,-0.000963,0.008822,-0.005304,-0.008736,-0.002914,0.000503,0.013256,-0.026453,0.00136,-0.009613,0.00482,0.005628
KAZ_Kyzyl_EIA:KZL004,0.118376,0.101553,0.061848,0. 083657,-0.000923,0.037092,0.00846,0.004154,-0.013908,-0.033896,-0.001299,0.002248,0.004311,-0.022708,0.021715,0.01432,-0.006258,-0.002027,0.002514,0.001751,0.001248,-0.001113,-0.001232,-0.00482,-0.001197
KAZ_Mayemer_IA:MMR001,0.07057,-0.187873,0.032055,0.00646,-0.045547,-0.004183,0.0047,0.012692,-0.010635,-0.011481,-0.020948,-0.002248,0.000892,-0.006331,0.007329,-0.003182,-0.012517,-0.002914,0.000251,0.001251,-0.013476,0.000866,0.00456,-0.003374,-0.008622
KAZ_Otyrar_Antiquity:KNT001,0.093335,0.061947,-0.011691,0.033915,-0.039084,0.016733,0.00423,-0.004615,-0.031088,-0.031345,-0.005034,-0.004046,0.011001,-0.025735,0.019815,0.020949,0.01017,0.00114,-0.00264,0,0.005615,-0.005193,-0.003081,0.00976,0.002874
KAZ_Otyrar_Antiquity:KNT002,0.106994,0.058901,0.01 0182,0.045866,-0.028621,0.024263,0.00188,-0.007384,-0.025361,-0.029887,0.009581,-0.003297,-0.003419,-0.015414,0.016422,0.013126,-0.008345,0.001394,0.004022,-0.008504,-0.017594,-0.006554,0.000246,0.003735,0.000239
KAZ_Otyrar_Antiquity:KNT003,0.101303,0.059916,-0.008674,0.042959,-0.039084,0.018965,-0.00376,-0.011538,-0.035383,-0.02606,-0.001299,-0.004346,0.003717,-0.025047,0.021172,0.025722,-0.001043,-0.005068,0.000251,-0.006378,-0.005989,-0.005564,-0.001356,-0.005302,0.005269
KAZ_Otyrar_Antiquity:KNT005,0.086506,0.067025,-0.073161,0.040698,-0.065243,0.027331,0.00423,0.003461,-0.02802,-0.024602,-0.003248,-0.007044,0.000743,-0.006331,0.006243,0.015646,-0.008214,-0.00152,0.007668,-0.022761,-0.003868,-0.001731,0.004437,-0.00494,0.008263
KAZ_Otyrar_Antiquity_o1:KNT004,0.069432,-0.138112,0.000754,-0.01938,-0.043085,-0.006136,0.011751,0.011769,-0.011862,-0.000364,-0.016401,-0.003147,0.006392,-0.004679,0.002036,0.003315,-0.004303,0.00038,0.001257,-0.001126,-0.015098,-0.00272,-0.003574,-0.003856,0.006227
KAZ_Pazyryk_IA:BRE001,0.084229,-0.137096,0.058831,0.045866,-0.048009,0.010877,0.008225,0.010846,-0.013294,-0.026242,-0.016239,-0.006744,-0.003122,-0.01968,0.016829,-0.000265,-0.011343,-0.003674,0.003142,0.00025,-0.027452,0.000742,0.003574,0.005422,-0.001078
KAZ_Pazyryk_IA:BRE003,0.087644,-0.106631,0.065619,0.055233,-0.046778,0.015339,0.007285,-0.002769,-0.01309,-0.027518,-0.00747,-0.001948,-0.000743,-0.032479,0.015472,0.014187,0.002477,0.002787,-0.001006,0.006253,-0.023708,0.000989,0.002835,0.007712,-0.00946
KAZ_Pazyryk_IA:BRE005,0.086506,-0.091398,0.046009,0.053618,-0.051394,0.011992,-0.00282,-0.003,-0.015135,-0.030433,-0.007795,0.004796,0.00446,-0.027525,0.013029,0.013126,0.000391,0.000253,-0.004274,0.005378,-0.027202,0.009027,-0.00419,0.001566,-0.003233
KAZ_Pazyryk_IA:BRE006,0.079676,-0.131003,0.045632,0.044897,-0.057241,0.009203,0.00282,0.009923,-0.021475,-0.022962,-0.009581,-0.001649,-0.003717,-0.030415,0.014251,-0.006895,-0.009257,0.00266,0.004148,0.004377,-0.032318,0.008037,-0.002218,0.003374,-0.006227
KAZ_Pazyryk_IA:BRE009,0.087644,-0.09546,0.064865,0.058786,-0.040623,0.000837,-0.00658,0,-0.01718,-0.023873,-0.011692,-0.001798,0.004757,-0.032066,0.017779,-0.002387,-0.009257,-0.006208,0.005279,0.009254,-0.026952,-0.000495,0.006409,-0.002169,-0.001437
KAZ_Pazyryk_IA:BRE010,0.09675,-0.117801,0.045632,0.042313,-0.051086,-0.005857,0.00611,0.006692,-0.016362,-0.021686,-0.007632,-0.002847,-0.005352,-0.018992,0.013708,0.008884,-0.01017,-0.000633,0.001006,0.004502,-0.019216,0.000124,-0.002218,0.000723,-0.000359
KAZ_Pazyryk_IA:BRE012,0.087644,-0.083273,0.059208,0.055233,-0.053241,0.004462,-0.002115,-0.002077,-0.013294,-0.035354,-0.008769,0.001049,0.002527,-0.034268,0.007193,0.001061,-0.012517,-0.002027,0.005531,0.007003,-0.03132,0.001978,0.002711,-0.005302,-0.00455
KAZ_Pazyryk_IA_o:BRE002,0.034147,-0.403165,0.084098,-0.021318,-0.079092,-0.037929,0.01034,0.023307,0.010431,0.014214,-0.021273,-0.000599,-0.000297,-0.00523,-0.006515,0.000133,0.002217,0.00152,0.005656,0.0112 55,-0.025206,-0.00371,-0.015776,-0.007953,0.002395
KAZ_Saka_TianShan_IA:CSP002,0.083091,-0.098506,0.059585,0.057494,-0.034776,0.008367,-0.003995,-0.000462,-0.010226,-0.009112,-0.009906,0.007643,-0.002527,-0.021194,0.021308,0.007027,0.005085,-0.010135,-0.001634,0.008754,-0.01672,-0.00779,0.001109,-0.005181,0.000359
KAZ_Saka_TianShan_IA:CSP003,0.09675,-0.015233,0.035449,0.050711,-0.033852,0.023148,0.00564,0.000231,-0.017385,-0.03098,-0.001299,-0.002847,0.00892,-0.019267,0.016558,0.007955,-0.018123,0.000253,0.004525,-0.000125,-0.016471,0.004204,-0.005176,-0.000723,-0.001197
KAZ_Saka_TianShan_IA:CSP004,0.078538,-0.136081,0.062602,0.041344,-0.043085,0.013108,0.003995,-0.001385,-0.008385,-0.025878,0.003085,-0.001798,0.006095,-0.02835,0.016558,0.001193,-0.008866,0.005954,0.001257,-0.000375,-0.016471,0.000742,-0.007272,0.003615,-0.004191
KAZ_Saka_TianShan_IA:CSP005,0.08992,-0.098506,0.054305,0.055233,-0.040623,0.008088,0,0.001385,-0.014521,-0.013303,-0.013965,0.007044,0.003271,-0.026561,0.017779,0.010607,-0.002868,-0.009375,-0.004651,0.013882,-0.013227,-0.008532,0.002835,-0.007109,0.001916
KAZ_Tasmola_IA:AKB001,0.085367,-0.137096,0.064488,0.043605,-0.032006,0.00502,0.002115,0.002308,-0.010022,-0.019135,-0.016401,-0.003147,0.000297,-0.017203,0.015472,0.003182,-0.000913,-0.003294,-0.005154,0.001626,-0.020838,0.005193,-0.007888,-0.001205,-0.006945
KAZ_Tasmola_IA:BKT001,0.088782,-0.060932,0.05506,0.050711,-0.036622,0.011435,0.00047,0.005538,-0.018816,-0.02442,-0.007145,0.004496,0.000446,-0.018304,0.005565,0.005701,-0.015125,0.0019,-0.006536,0.002626,-0.016471,0.006554,-0.006532,0.006266,-0.001078
KAZ_Tasmola_IA:ESZ001,0.092197,-0.108662,0.064865,0.05168,-0.041238,0.013108,-0.00047,-0.003231,-0.01718,-0.026971,-0.014128,-0.004796,-0.003717,-0.023258,0.011672,0.010209,-0.000391,-0.001647,-0.004399,0.007379,-0.016845,0.010758,-0.006409,0.009037,0.007305
KAZ_Tasmola_IA:ESZ003,0.087644,-0.117801,0.058454,0.055556,-0.044624,0.010598,0,-0.003231,-0.014726,-0.021868,-0.012179,-0.004646,-0.006987,-0.026011,0.006515,0.014585,0.001695,-0.001267,0.004399,0.006628,-0.014599,-0.000742,-0.003944,-0.003494,0.00467
KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KKM001,0.080814,-0.113739,0.060716,0.049096,-0.028313,-0.000558,-0.0047,0.001846,-0.006954,-0.014943,-0.013965,0.002548,0.007433,-0.024772,0.015879,0.008088,-0.004694,0.003674,-0.004651,0.004627,-0.008485,0.003586,0.004437,0.006266,-0.001437
KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KSH001,0.080814,-0.117801,0.058454,0.049096,-0.0437,0.00502,-0.000235,-0.010846,-0.011658,-0.022233,-0.013316,-0.000599,0.002676,-0.026011,0.017644,0.012066,0.000391,0.00228,-0.001131,0.007879,-0.02009,0.00371,0.004437,0.000964,-0.005508
KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KSH002,0.081953,-0.114755,0.059585,0.047481,-0.0397,0.01004,0.009165,0.007154,-0.009613,-0.020957,-0.013153,-0.002548,0.007136,-0.01913,0.012215,0.001724,-0.001304,-0.005194,-0.003142,0.003126,-0.014599,0.008161,0.001972,0.003133,0.007784
KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KSH003,0.084229,-0.11577,0.05506,0.039083,-0.048932,0.00502,-0.00235,-0.001154,-0.013703,-0.016037,-0.01429,-0.010191,0.007582,-0.026974,0.017372,0.008884,0.003781,-0.00266,-0.00088,0.01013,-0.01672,0.001978,-0.001849,0.002651,0.002634
KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KSH004,0.078538,-0.155376,0.056568,0.03553,-0.039084,0.001394,0.001645,-0.002077,0,-0.019864,-0.010068,-0.004496,0.00223,-0.013487,0.011672,0.01127,0.005607,0.00152,-0.006411,0.003627,-0.018967,0.004328,-0.006409,0.002048,-0.005987
KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KYZ001,0.079676,-0.121864,0.059962,0.048773,-0.037238,-0.001394,-0.00423,0.000692,-0.016566,-0.021504,-0.007307,-0.003147,-0.001189,-0.022295,0.010993,0.012463,0.00691,-0.008868,-0.009679,0.002751,-0.02533,0.005812,-0.009737,0.008073,0.000958
KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KYZ002,0.076261,-0.151314,0.060339,0.046512,-0.041854,-0.00251,0.006345,0.003231,-0.011862,-0.016401,-0.017538,-0.003597,0.011001,-0.015551,0.005157,-0.002387,-0.016037,-0.003674,-0.005908,0.003752,-0.024956,0.008779,-0.002958,-0.002289,-0.002155
KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KZL001,0.094473,-0.092413,0.061094,0.06137,-0.035083,0.018407,0.00705,-0.006231,-0.016975,-0.032256,-0.002111,0.0003,-0.000149,-0.016377,0.025108,0.000663,-0.012778,-0.000633,0.001383,0.002626,-0.013351,0.004699,0.000986,0.001205,0.000838
KAZ_Tasmola_IA:NUR002,0.084229,-0.148267,0.069013,0.047481,-0.03416,0.007251,0.00094,-0.006,-0.010226,-0.022415,-0.009906,-0.003447,0.004014,-0.01445,0.013436,-0.003845,-0.013951,-0.00152,-0.004777,0.002876,-0.020464,0.00136,-0.003451,-0.002651,-0.010179
KAZ_Tasmola_IA:SRK001,0.075123,-0.155376,0.057699,0.032623,-0.035391,-0.008646,0.00517,0.006923,-0.008385,-0.011299,-0.012504,-0.005545,-0.000743,-0.021607,0.012351,0.00769,-0.00326,-0.000507,0.00264,0.005878,-0.010981,-0.003339,0.000493,-0.004097,0.002395
KAZ_Tasmola_IA:TAL003,0.08992,-0.089367,0.065242,0.05168,-0.041238,0.005578,-0.003055,-0.006923,-0.01718,-0.022962,-0.007632,-0.003897,0.0055,-0.020231,0.018594,0.019491,0.005476,0.002787,-0.003645,0.008754,-0.020963,0.004946,-0.002835,0.007471,-0.003712
KAZ_Tasmola_IA:TAL004,0.08992,-0.109677,0.058077,0.053941,-0.042469,0.004183,-0.000235,0.001385,-0.010431,-0.027335,-0.007307,0.001349,0.006987,-0.024359,0.014658,0.010872,-0.002608,0.004054,-0.005782,0.009129,-0.011979,0.005935,0.001849,-0.003374,0.002994
KAZ_Tasmola_IA:TAL005,0.092197,-0.109677,0.055437,0.04522,-0.025235,0.014223,0,0.001385,-0.01718,-0.013303,-0.014615,-0.0003,0.009663,-0.029451,0.008686,0.003713,0.001043,-0.003547,-0.002011,0.004127,-0.020713,0.005812,0.003081,0.00012,0.000958
KAZ_Tasmola_IA:WAR001,0.087644,-0.101553,0.04978,0.055556,-0.04647,0.001673,0.006815,-0.002769,-0.009817,-0.030069,-0.011692,-0.003897,0.005649,-0.020368,0.026465,0.005569,-0.01017,-0.002534,-0.006536,-0.004127,-0.015722,0.004575,0.003451,0.004458,-0.004431
KAZ_Tasmola_IA_o1:BIR010,0.053497,-0.300597,0.067505,0.004522,-0.07109,-0.031794,0.012926,0.021461,0.001023,-0.005285,-0.021922,-0.001798,0.005054,-0.015827,0.00285,-0.005701,-0.013169,0.003801,0.008422,0.01013,-0.019091,0.00272,-0.011955,-0.001325,-0.00491
KAZ_Tasmola_IA_o2:BIR012,0.03187,-0.411289,0.082589,-0.030039,-0.083708,-0.054105,0.015511,0.019845,0.011044,0.012392,-0.027606,0.001798,0.000892,0.003441,-0.005565,0.010607,-0.00013,-0.00038,0.011439,0.012881,-0.026952,-0.007172,-0.014297,0.005422,-0.003952
KAZ_Tasmola_IA_o2:BIR013,0.030732,-0.378792,0.067505,-0.026163,-0.057857,-0.03765,0.020446,0.018692,0.005931,0.005832,-0.031828,-0.004496,-0.000743,-0.001789,-0.004343,-0.000663,0.003129,-0.00114,0.004148,0.014632,-0.023958,-0.008779,-0.016638,0.00253,0.002155
KAZ_Tasmola_IA_o3:ESZ002,0.094473,-0.021326,0.029038,0.053941,-0.040931,0.01757,0.004935,-0.001385,-0.018203,-0.030433,-0.008607,-0.003147,0.000446,-0.022295,0.023344,0.013126,-0.008996,0.002407,0.001131,0.002501,-0.015847,0.001484,0.001232,0.005302,-0.002395
KAZ_Xianbei_Hun_Antiquity:BRE004,0.088782,-0.123895,0.060339,0.041021,-0.048624,-0.000837,0.00094,-0.005769,-0.021066,-0.021139,-0.007632,-0.005995,-0.00223,-0.021332,0.010586,0.011933,-0.00013,0.005954,0.001131,0.008254,-0.021961,0.00507,-0.00456,-0.003615,-0.005508
KAZ_Xianbei_Hun_Antiquity:BRE007,0.062603,-0.24982,0.062602,0.00646,-0.051702,-0.013108,0.00611,0.004154,-0.005318,-0.002005,-0.010068,-0.001798,-0.000595,-0.007707,0.005293,0.005171,0.001565,0.004434,0.003 142,0.018009,-0.023833,0.00779,-0.018117,0.000241,-0.00479
KAZ_Xianbei_Hun_Antiquity:BRE008,0.035285,-0.387932,0.082589,-0.022287,-0.074783,-0.045459,0.021151,0.028614,0.001841,0.015126,-0.018999,0.003447,-0.002973,-0.00234,0.002443,0.000133,-0.004172,-0.00076,-0.001257,0.006003,-0.023708,0.004328,-0.015776,-0.00494,0.001078
KAZ_Xianbei_Hun_Antiquity:BRE011,0.067156,-0.170609,0.062602,0.040052,-0.054472,-0.011992,0.0047,0.012692,-0.010022,-0.022962,-0.016564,-0.002847,0.006392,-0.01913,0.017372,-0.004508,-0.021905,0.00076,0.004022,-0.001126,-0.018093,0.001855,-0.01442,0.000241,0.006586
KAZ_Xianbei_Hun_Antiquity:BRE013,0.081953,-0.117801,0.053928,0.052649,-0.054164,0.001394,0.00094,0.001615,-0.014521,-0.031891,-0.000325,-0.002548,0.008176,-0.025185,0.014251,0.011668,0.000391,0.004307,0.002 137,0.00988,-0.018967,0.004946,-0.003574,-0.006386,0.000599
KAZ_Xianbei_Hun_Antiquity:BRE014,0.043253,-0.358482,0.066373,-0.023256,-0.048009,-0.025937,0.019741,0.017538,0.001432,0.00656,-0.030691,-0.002398,-0.002527,-0.018441,-0.001629,0.002519,0.000913,-0.001014,0.004902,0.017258,-0.013227,-0.003215,-0.018117,-0.002892,-0.001796
KGZ_Alai_Nura_Antiquity_1:ALN001,0.093335,0.020311 ,0.00264,0.047481,-0.040007,0.014223,0.00047,0.003231,-0.029247,-0.025695,-0.007957,0.008542,0.001487,-0.017753,0.015608,0.013524,-0.005085,-0.002154,-0.002011,-0.002001,-0.009608,-0.00371,0.002588,-0.008555,-0.008023
KGZ_Alai_Nura_Antiquity_1:ALN009,0.103579,0.054839 ,-0.001886,0.055233,-0.043393,0.019522,-0.001645,-0.001385,-0.036201,-0.033714,-0.003248,0.002248,0.002527,-0.015001,0.016286,-0.006762,-0.015385,0.007855,0.003017,-0.008879,-0.010482,-0.010263,-0.000739,0.005181,0.001796
KGZ_Alai_Nura_Antiquity_2:ALN003,0.078538,-0.113739,0.044123,0.042313,-0.046778,0.001952,0.00517,0.001154,-0.027815,-0.029704,-0.000487,-0.000749,0.000743,-0.01913,0.015336,-0.006232,-0.01004,-0.002787,0.001131,-0.003877,-0.009234,-0.002349,-0.000739,0.000361,0
KGZ_Alai_Nura_Antiquity_2:ALN005,0.093335,-0.089367,0.04714,0.040698,-0.039392,0.005857,0.00987,0.002077,-0.024543,-0.020593,-0.00682,0.003147,0.000743,-0.020506,0.014522,0.017104,0.007953,-0.002914,0.002388,0.008004,-0.015098,0.009398,-0.002958,0.005663,-0.000838
KGZ_Alai_Nura_Antiquity_2:ALN008,0.086506,-0.078196,0.038466,0.037791,-0.041546,0.003068,0.00517,0.008769,-0.016157,-0.022051,-0.009581,0.001499,0.001338,-0.023671,0.013436,0.01127,0.004694,-0.000887,-0.005656,0.006753,-0.013726,0.000989,0.002095,-0.002169,0.007903
KGZ_Chilpek_IA:CHK004,0.062603,-0.122879,0.009805,0.006137,-0.044316,-0.003626,0.01034,0.007384,-0.02168,-0.018588,-0.011854,-0.003897,0.004757,-0.018579,0.015608,0.011933,-0.001304,0.000633,-0.005908,-0.000375,-0.00549,-0.008779,0.004683,0.000964,0.000718
Saka_Tian_Shan:ALN006,0.104717,0.028435,0.018479,0 .06137,-0.038161,0.01757,0.00423,0.002308,-0.037428,-0.037723,-0.008282,0.00015,0.007433,-0.028763,0.019951,0.01432,0.000391,0.00038,-0.00176,0.003001,-0.003619,-0.003339,0.000493,-0.001205,-0.000838
Saka_Tian_Shan:CHK003,0.086506,-0.058901,0.029038,0.042313,-0.045547,0.008088,0.00658,0.002308,-0.026997,-0.017312,-0.009581,-0.00015,-0.002973,-0.021882,0.011129,0.017237,0.007171,0.004307,0.008 296,0.0005,-0.015722,0.006059,0.008751,0.011447,0.005269
Saka_Tian_Shan:CHK005,0.088782,-0.037575,0.035072,0.053618,-0.045547,0.011435,0.0047,0.001846,-0.020248,-0.030251,-0.017863,-0.003747,0.004608,-0.018029,0.012351,0.016309,0.000261,0.005701,-0.000251,-0.008379,-0.012852,-0.000495,0.003081,0.007109,-0.010777
Saka_Tian_Shan:KEN001,0.094473,-0.022342,0.021496,0.048773,-0.0437,0.010598,0.00235,0.005307,-0.024134,-0.025878,-0.006008,0.001499,0.004906,-0.016377,0.02443,0.009414,-0.011083,-0.006334,-0.00817,0.002376,-0.004742,-0.000247,-0.002835,0.00253,0.001796
Saka_Tian_Shan:KEN002,0.091058,-0.036559,0.027907,0.059755,-0.044931,-0.001952,-0.00846,0.004154,-0.026179,-0.035354,-0.003573,0.000599,-0.000595,-0.004817,0.026194,0.009944,-0.007693,0.003167,0.004651,-0.004502,-0.011854,0.001237,0.006655,-0.000361,0.003592
Saka_Tian_Shan:KEN003,0.099026,-0.024373,0.028661,0.055556,-0.030159,0.017849,0.001645,-0.010153,-0.020043,-0.035172,-0.008931,-0.008842,0.01115,-0.016102,0.031759,0.004508,-0.014994,0.004687,-0.003394,0.002751,-0.016221,-0.003339,-0.002218,-0.003012,-0.002515
Sargat_IA:BGD002,0.100164,-0.00914,0.059962,0.05814,-0.040623,0.011992,0.011751,0.003461,-0.015953,-0.028611,0.013965,0.01154,0.00773,-0.014313,0.016422,-0.009546,-0.034943,-0.00038,-0.000628,-0.007504,-0.010981,0.005564,-0.007272,0.00494,0.001916
Sargat_IA:BIY002,0.09675,-0.074134,0.07467,0.057171,-0.043393,-0.01004,-0.00423,0.010846,-0.01493,-0.029704,0.021598,-0.002248,0.016501,-0.034956,0.009229,0.012994,0.004172,0.003421,-0.005154,0.001,0.001622,0.002597,0.00456,0.00012,-0.005628
Sargat_IA:BIY003,0.094473,-0.078196,0.078818,0.064277,-0.05201,0.008646,-0.003525,0.004154,-0.012271,-0.026971,0.023222,0.001499,0.011744,-0.036608,-0.000136,0.004906,-0.018384,0.010895,-0.006913,-0.003502,-0.009109,0.009398,0.006532,-0.006145,0.003473
Sargat_IA:BIY007,0.092197,-0.055854,0.056568,0.052649,-0.040931,-0.007809,0.00611,0.013615,-0.018612,-0.030798,0.016401,-0.006894,0.007582,-0.03069,-0.002579,0.00411,-0.012778,-0.008742,-0.000377,-0.008379,-0.013102,-0.003339,0.006162,0.010122,0.001676
Sargat_IA:BIY008,0.095611,-0.087336,0.073539,0.07752,-0.052625,-0.001116,-0.00329,0.002538,-0.016566,-0.028429,0.016726,-0.01109,0.011893,-0.045691,-0.000136,0.003315,-0.003912,0.009375,-0.002263,-0.00075,-0.014474,0.011623,0.003204,0.000602,-0.002634
Sargat_IA:BIY009,0.091058,-0.083273,0.062979,0.062985,-0.04924,-0.002789,0.002115,0,-0.016157,-0.030251,0.01494,-0.002847,0.011298,-0.038259,0.004614,-0.001591,-0.004824,0.00076,0.005154,0.008004,-0.010232,-0.00136,0.000123,0.005302,-0.002395
Sargat_IA:BRV001,0.091058,-0.025388,0.061848,0.063308,-0.042162,0.001116,0.003055,-0.005077,-0.016566,-0.032256,0.001624,0.00045,-0.000595,-0.028763,0.005972,0.000265,-0.009648,0.002787,0.000754,-0.012756,-0.006364,0.003339,0.002711,0.005181,-0.006107
Sargat_IA:SHD001,0.095611,-0.06804,0.070899,0.056525,-0.048317,-0.003347,0.006815,0.004615,-0.010022,-0.025513,0.011854,-0.006444,0.011596,-0.031103,0.003529,-0.00358,-0.01004,-0.003801,-0.005782,-0.000375,-0.011979,0.009645,-0.002588,-0.00494,0.011496
Sargat_IA:SMV001,0.085367,-0.102568,0.067127,0.055556,-0.057857,-0.008925,0.00094,-0.000462,-0.018407,-0.031345,0.015265,-0.004046,0.001784,-0.041287,-0.001221,0.000663,0.003781,-0.00152,-0.001885,-0.003126,-0.001373,0.010387,0.004314,0.010724,-0.005987
Sargat_IA:SMV002,0.093335,-0.063978,0.056568,0.059432,-0.05201,0.002789,0.003525,0.007615,-0.013294,-0.02934,0.00682,-0.001948,0.004906,-0.027937,0.00095,0.009944,0.003781,0.003167,-0.002137,-0.011005,-0.003494,0.008037,0.003944,0.003856,0.001796
Sarmatian_KAZ_Aigyrly:AIG002,0.102441,0.051792,0.0 48649,0.052326,-0.024312,0.038487,-0.008695,-0.002769,-0.029451,-0.026789,-0.008607,0.001199,0.000446,-0.021056,0.016965,0.015115,0.011865,0.021664,-0.000628,0.009379,-0.002371,0.01422,0.000246,0.003374,-0.010059
Sarmatian_KAZ_Aigyrly:AIG003,0.111547,0.052808,0.0 36581,0.065569,-0.029544,0.02259,0.003995,-0.004846,-0.022498,-0.031527,-0.004384,0.002698,-0.008474,-0.025735,0.020087,0.023336,-0.002217,0.003674,-0.001006,0,-0.009483,-0.002226,-0.003081,0.00723,-0.00455
Sarmatian_KAZ_Aktobe:KBU001,0.100164,0.046714,0.04 2992,0.072675,-0.022773,0.018407,0.011045,0.003461,-0.02986,-0.034443,0.006658,0.004946,-0.00223,-0.030139,0.015879,0.011933,-0.005476,0,-0.009804,-0.007629,-0.003244,0.008285,0.014543,0.005302,-0.008981
Sarmatian_KAZ_Aktobe:KBU003,0.10927,0.040621,0.027 907,0.076228,-0.02185,0.021196,-0.00658,-0.001846,-0.016975,-0.034807,0.005196,-0.008393,0.001487,-0.005505,0.025651,0.010209,-0.005476,-0.004307,-0.008422,-0.006128,-0.014724,0.00371,-0.000616,0.003133,-0.002754
Sarmatian_KAZ_Aktobe:KSK002,0.108132,0.074134,0.03 9598,0.066215,-0.010156,0.027889,0.0047,0.006692,-0.022702,-0.028429,-0.008607,0.004946,0.003271,-0.015827,0.033794,0.008751,-0.034552,0.012922,0.007039,-0.004627,-0.011355,0.007419,0.002588,-0.002048,0.000479
Sarmatian_KAZ_Aktobe:SBL001,0.083091,-0.131003,0.054305,0.044251,-0.035699,0.008367,0.008695,0.002077,-0.01493,-0.026242,-0.013478,0.002847,0.003419,-0.021194,0.015879,0.006232,-0.001434,0.013936,0.004651,0.014757,-0.019341,-0.001113,-0.003821,0.020364,-0.001078
Sarmatian_KAZ_Bisoba:BSB001,0.121791,0.045699,0.03 7335,0.073321,-0.016618,0.029005,0.003995,-0.001615,-0.021884,-0.0277,0.003897,0.002997,-0.005798,-0.02202,0.022937,0.008486,-0.00678,0.007475,0.011941,0.000625,-0.001123,-0.009027,-0.000246,0.007712,-0.000239
Sarmatian_KAZ_Bisoba:BSB002,0.103579,0.057885,0.04 1483,0.061047,-0.027697,0.029005,0,0.000692,-0.019225,-0.038999,-0.00065,0.002548,0.001041,-0.027662,0.018322,0.012331,0.004303,-0.00076,0.002891,0.003627,0.002995,-0.002226,-0.002218,0.008917,-0.004311
Sarmatian_KAZ_Bisoba:BSB003,0.114961,0.033512,0.03 5072,0.061047,-0.025851,0.022869,0.007285,0.003,-0.023725,-0.028247,0.00406,0.005545,-0.004608,-0.022708,0.015472,0.027181,0.007171,-0.004941,0.00993,0.006128,0.004243,0.009398,0.0059 16,0.00012,-0.003592
Sarmatian_Segizsay:SGZ001,0.113823,0.044683,0.0313 01,0.061047,-0.025235,0.021196,-0.00282,0.001846,-0.023929,-0.040274,-0.009256,0.004796,-0.002825,-0.031791,0.026601,0.018563,0.009779,-0.001267,-0.002388,-0.001,-0.012852,0.005193,-0.000246,0.022774,-0.003353
Sarmatian_Segizsay:SGZ002,0.106994,0.044683,0.0297 93,0.069768,-0.035699,0.030399,-0.000235,0.004384,-0.02168,-0.038087,-0.007145,0.0003,-0.001635,-0.006468,0.020222,0.000398,-0.021513,0.002787,0,-0.004127,-0.015972,0.007914,0.004314,0,0.002395

Ajeje Brazorf

03-30-2021, 08:09 AM

Some quick information about the samples:

Object-ID
Colloquial-Skeletal
Simplified_Culture
Culture_Grouping
Label
Country
Mean Date
mtDNA
Y-DNA
SNPs
Autosomal-Coverage
Damage-Rate

KZL004.A0101
Kyzyl mound 5
Tasmola
Kyzyl_1350BCE
Kyzyl_1350BCE
Kazakhstan
-1367
H5a1

1003141
3,733
0,28299

KSH002.A0101
Karashoky I/8
Tasmola
Karashoky_750BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-842
H101

1023383
3,493
0,2686

CSP005.A0101
Caspan 6 mound 1, Skull #2
Saka
Caspan_700BCE
Saka_TianShan_600BCE
Kazakhstan
-791
T2b4e

793636
1,926
0,25299

CSP003.A0101
Caspan 6 mound 4
Saka
Caspan_700BCE
Saka_TianShan_600BCE
Kazakhstan
-697
I1b
L-M20
1001307
3,072
0,00293

AKB001.A0101
Akbeit I
Tasmola
Akbeit_700BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-688
H6a1a
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162
1050998
4,019
0,0022

KYZ002.A0101
Kyzylshilik /8
Tasmola
Kyzylshilik_660BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-671
HV2a3

999073
3,546
0,2705

ESZ001.A0101
Eleke Sazy
Tasmola
Eleke_Sazy_650BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-670
J1b1a1e
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417
1043244
3,952
0,0028

TAL004.A0101
Taldy II/5
Tasmola
Taldy_650BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-670
A
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162
938570
2,551
0,0022

TAL005.A0101
Taldy II/8
Tasmola
Taldy_650BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-669
H6a1b
C-M216>M217>F1906
883223
2,186
0,0053

BIR012.A0101
Birlik mound 25
Tasmola
Birlik_640BCE
Tasmola_Birlik_640BCE
Kazakhstan
-668

294288
0,30182
0,22732

KSH001.A0101
Karashoky I/1
Tasmola
Karashoky_750BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-667
U5b2a1a2
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162>Z93
1006727
3,279
0,0025

KYZ001.A0101
Kyzylshilik /2
Tasmola
Kyzylshilik_660BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-666
D4i
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162>Z93>Z94
1014898
3,306
0,0031

NUR002.A0101
Nurken II/2 down
Tasmola
Nurken_660BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-663
H6a1b2
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162
824772
1,628
0,0029

BSB001.A0101
Bisoba mound 3, burial1
Sarmatian
Bisoba_650BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-656
T1a1
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198
755046
1,173
0,00673

ESZ003.A0101
Eleke Sazy II/4
Saka
Eleke_Sazy_650BCE
ESZ003_frel_ESZ001
Kazakhstan
-650
J1b1a1e

858775
2,06
0,2611

SRK001.A0101
Serekty II
Tasmola
Serekty_700BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-650
D4e

1011615
3,433
0,2822

BKT001.A0101
Bektauta
Tasmola
Bektauta_650BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-648
C4a1b
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162>Z93>Z94
1003700
3,443
0,0043

BIR013.A0101
Birlik mound 29
Tasmola
Birlik_640BCE
Tasmola_Birlik_640BCE
Kazakhstan
-638
Y1a1

885086
2,15319
0,21497

KZL001.A0101
Kyzyl mound 3 (left side)
Tasmola
Kyzyl_640BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-638
I1a1

1055111
4,112
0,30239

ESZ002.A0101
Eleke Sazy II/9
Saka
Eleke_Sazy_650BCE
ESZ002.out
Kazakhstan
-632
A

686011
1,005
0,1967

NUL001.A0101
Nurly object 6, mound 1
Saka
Nurly_500BCE
Saka_TianShan_600BCE
Kazakhstan
-627
W3a1

90446
0,08058
0,27295

MMR001.A0101
Mayemer-II mound 1
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Mayemer-II_600_BCE
MMR001.out
Kazakhstan
-600
C4a1a4a
J-M304
575147
0,74746
0,01051

BIR010.A0101
Birlik mound 21
Tasmola
Birlik_640BCE
Tasmola_Birlik_640BCE
Kazakhstan
-600
D4b1
Q-M242>MEH2>F1096
639267
0,94619
0,00519

KSH004.A0101
Karashoky VI/1
Tasmola
Karashoky_750BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-600
C4
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162
1013018
2,709
0,0026

KKM001.A0101
Karakemer
Tasmola
Karakemer_700BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-600
H15b1
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162
1020694
3,689
0,0035

TAL003.A0101
Taldy II/4
Tasmola
Taldy_650BCE
TAL003_frel_TAL004
Kazakhstan
-600
U5a1f1
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162>Z93
989385
3,101
0,0035

KSH003.A0101
Karashoky I/6
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Karashoky_750BCE
KSH003_frel_KSH001
Kazakhstan
-600
U5b2a1a2
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162>Z93
854637
2,009
0,0061

WAR001.A0101
37 Warriors
Tasmola
Warrior_600BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-583
H2b
Q-M242>MEH2>M346>L53
1019363
3,529
0,0029

CHK003.A0101
Chilpek #8188
Saka
Chilpek_300BCE
Saka_TianShan_600BCE
Kyrgyzstan
-583

588596
0,7742
0,23102

CHK002.A0101
Chilpek #8187
Saka
Chilpek_300BCE
Saka_TianShan_600BCE
Kyrgyzstan
-580
U4a2

87946
0,07929
0,22319

ALN006.A0101
Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials #360/8
Saka
Alai_Nura_500BCE
Saka_TianShan_600BCE
Kyrgyzstan
-579
U1a1c1d

992628
3,13121
0,30008

KZL003.A0101
Kyzyl mound 4
Tasmola
Kyzyl_640BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-550
I1a1

100212
0,09
0,22011

KEN002.A0101
Ken-Su #651*
Saka
Ken-Su_250BCE
Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Kyrgyzstan
-469
U4a1a

192782
0,196
0,18192

CLK001.A0101
Chelkar #283/1
Sarmatian
Chelkar_500BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-450
A8a1
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417
142570
0,134
0,06754

CHK001.A0101
Chilpek #8186
Saka
Chilpek_300BCE
Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Kyrgyzstan
-448
H1

32886
0,02825
0,22681

AIG001.A0101
Aigyrly sanctuary individual 1
Sarmatian
Aigyrly_300BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-400
U4a1
P-PF5850>P295>M45
56876
0,051
0,12772

AIG002.A0101
Aigyrly sanctuary individual 2
Sarmatian
Aigyrly_300BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-400
D4j3a
R-M207>M173
207316
0,203
0,01095

AIG006.A0101
Aigyrly sanctuary individual 3
Sarmatian
Aigyrly_300BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-400
U5a1g1
R-M207>M173>M420
140557
0,132
0,05346

CSP004.A0101
Caspan 6 mound 1 southwest corner
Saka
Caspan_700BCE
Saka_TianShan_600BCE
Kazakhstan
-400

R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198
490127
0,657
0,01488

SBL001.A0101
Sapibulak object 7, burial 1
Sarmatian
Sapibulak_450BCE
SBL001.out
Kazakhstan
-400
X2b4a

351735
0,39018
0,22692

SGZ002.A0101
Segizsay /2
Sarmatian
Segizsay_300BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-400
A

1031683
3,785
0,1956

CSP002.A0101
Caspan 6 mound 1
Saka
Caspan_700BCE
Saka_TianShan_600BCE
Kazakhstan
-400

529379
0,753
0,25491

ALN007.A0101
Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials #360/10
Saka
Alai_Nura_500BCE
Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Kyrgyzstan
-396
D4i

50555
0,04378
0,06224

SHD002.A0101
Shadrinsk #25/2
Sarmatian
Shadrinsk_400BCE
SHD002.LowCov
Russia
-350
H101
BT-M42
5853
0,00491
NA

BSB004.A0101
Bisoba mound 8, burial 1
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Bisoba_650BCE
BSB004.LowCov
Kazakhstan
-350

CT-M168
20527
0,018
0

SHD001.A0101
Shadrinsk #25/1
Sargat
Shadrinsk_400BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-350
H1
Q-M242>MEH2>M346>L53
1036513
2,76393
0,01306

KBU003.A0101
Kaynbulak II mound 4, burial 4
Sarmatian
Kaynbulak_400BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-350
I4a
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417
373730
0,408
0,02258

KSK002.A0101
Burial ground Krasnoselsky- I KII, P-1, K-3, package No. 18
Sarmatian
Krasnoselsky-I_400BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-350
U5a2a1e

401763
0,44432
0,22774

KBU002.A0101
Kaynbulak II mound 4, burial 2
Sarmatian
Kaynbulak_400BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-350
I4a

225374
0,219
0,24443

KBU001.A0101
Kaynbulak II mound 4, burial 1
Sarmatian
Kaynbulak_400BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-350
U5b2c

504453
0,67
0,2691

BSB002.A0101
Bisoba mound 3, burial3
Sarmatian
Bisoba_650BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-350
U5b2c

625078
0,983
0,24838

BSB003.A0101
Bisoba mound 3, burial3
Sarmatian
Bisoba_650BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-350
T1a1

250398
0,258
0,21686

BIY001.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/12
Sargat
MtBitiya_300BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-330
H7e
NO-M214
117089
0,10622
0,04619

SMV001.A0101
Shmakovo #26/1
Sargat
Shmakovo_350BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-319
U4b1b1
N-M231>L735>F1206>L729>TAT>F1419>L839>L708>M2005
942910
2,90061
0,00467

KBO001.A0101
Karaoba, Korgantas mound 16
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Korgantas
Korgantas_300BCE
Kazakhstan
-317
G2a1d2
Q-M242>MEH2>M346>L53>L54
954343
2,29491
0,00892

BIY012.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/31
Sargat
MtBitiya_300BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-305
U5a1a2a
CT-M168
38514
0,03328
NA

BDY002.A0101
Bidayk mound 1
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Bidayk_300BCE
Korgantas_300BCE
Kazakhstan
-305
D4b1

168368
0,15602
0,16017

CSP001.A0101
Caspan 2 mound 3
Saka
Caspan_300BCE
Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Kazakhstan
-301
G2a3
Q-M242>MEH2
93211
0,087
0,05045

VOR003.A0101
Vorobievo #22/3
Scythian
Vorobievo_350BCE
VOR003.LowCov
Russia
-300

BT-M42
12137
0,01025
0

SMV002.A0101
Shmakovo #26/2
Sargat
Shmakovo_350BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-300
T2d1b2
G-M201
981732
3,01643
0,00387

KOK001.A0101
Kokonovka # 225/2
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Kokonovka_200BCE
KOK001.out
Russia
-300
T2d1b1
Q-M242>L275>NGQ1>M378>Y2265>Y2244>FGC4868
22544
0,01952
NA

KOK003.A0101
Kokonovka #225/4
Sargat
Kokonovka_200BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-300
J2b1a2a

21749
0,01844
0,62578

VOR001.A0101
Vorobievo #22/1
Sargat
Vorobievo_350BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-300
U4d2

53681
0,04642
0,14611

AIG003.A0101
Aigyrly sanctuary individual 6
Sarmatian
Aigyrly_300BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-296
U2e1b

654391
1,078
0,26038

BIY003.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/15
Sargat
MtBitiya_300BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-292
G2a1
N-M231>L735>F1206>L729>TAT
585846
0,75255
0,04022

SGZ001.A0101
Segizsay /1
Sarmatian
Segizsay_300BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-287
K1b1a

1017243
3,653
0,289

BDY001.A0101
Bidayk
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Bidayk_300BCE
Korgantas_300BCE
Kazakhstan
-282
D4j

802565
1,534
0,2441

BRE002.A0101
Berel 2013/44
Scytho_Siberian
Berel_50BCE
Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE_o
Kazakhstan
-268
D4m2
Q-M242>MEH2>M346>L53>L54>L330
1014113
3,681
0,0035

BRE001.A0101
Berel 2013/5
Scytho_Siberian
Berel_50BCE
Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Kazakhstan
-268
H7b

622585
0,847
0,2027

KEN001.A0101
Ken-Su #551
Saka
Ken-Su_250BCE
Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Kyrgyzstan
-261
A16
J-M304>M172>M410
915954
2,542
0,00719

BIY002.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/14
Sargat
MtBitiya_300BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-250
R1b1
Q-M242>MEH2>M346>L53
510732
0,62659
0,01614

BDY003.B0101
Bidayk mound 3 (in the act this sample recorded repeatedly)
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Bidayk_300BCE
Korgantas_300BCE
Kazakhstan
-204
A8a1
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198
412616
0,46704
-0,001

BRE005.A0101
Berel 2017_80
Scytho_Siberian
Berel_50BCE
Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Kazakhstan
-201
J2b1a2a
Q-M242>MEH2>M346>L53>L54>L330
1030413
3,611
0,0054

KEN003.A0101
Ken-Su 2 #556
Saka
Ken-Su_250BCE
Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Kyrgyzstan
-201
G2a3
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162
435669
0,505
0,06299

BRE006.A0101
Berel 2017_67A
Scytho_Siberian
Berel_50BCE
Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Kazakhstan
-201
U1b2

973303
3,364
0,2704

BRE009.A0101
Berel 2018_105
Scytho_Siberian
Berel_50BCE
Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Kazakhstan
-201
B5b2a2

983044
3,144
0,2978

BRE012.A0101
Berel 2018_76B
Scytho_Siberian
Berel_50BCE
Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Kazakhstan
-201
A8a1

991209
3,472
0,2705

BRE010.A0101
Berel 2018_108A
Scytho_Siberian
Berel_50BCE
Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Kazakhstan
-201
J1b1a1e

963292
2,954
0,257

BRE003.A0101
Berel 2017_80А/80Е
Scytho_Siberian
Berel_50BCE
Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Kazakhstan
-201
B5b2a

925308
2,267
0,28

BIY006.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/21
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
MtBitiya_300BCE
BIY006.LowCov
Russia
-200
D4j
CT-M168
6390
0,00541
NA

BIY005.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/20
Sargat
MtBitiya_300BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-200
D4j
F-M89
64218
0,05631
NA

BIY007.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/23
Sargat
MtBitiya_300BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-200
U4b1b1
G-M201
305283
0,31382
0,01768

BIY008.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/24
Sargat
MtBitiya_300BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-200
U4d2
N-M231>L735>F1206>L729>TAT>F1419>L839>L708>M2005>CTS9239>L1026
645461
0,87975
0,01671

BIY009.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/25
Sargat
MtBitiya_300BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-200
N1a1a1a1a
N-M231>L735>F1206>L729>TAT>F1419>L839>L708>M2005>CTS9239>L1026>CTS6967>CTS3103>Z1936
613609
0,88806
0,0073

BIY010.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/26
Sargat
MtBitiya_300BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-200
H2a1
Q-M242>MEH2
23241
0,01997
NA

BIY011.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/27
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
MtBitiya_300BCE
BIY011.cont
Russia
-200
U4a1
R-M207>M173
56801
0,0495
0,14057

KOK002.A0101
Kokonovka #225/3
Sargat
Kokonovka_200BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-199

CF-P143
34239
0,02955
0

CHK005.A0101
Chilpek #8191
Saka
Chilpek_300BCE
Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Kyrgyzstan
-151
U1a

629053
1,1203
0,25232

BGD004.A0101
Bogdanovka #228/4
Sargat
Bogdanovka_150BCE
BGD004.cont
Russia
-101
H5b
NO-M214
52410
0,0462
0,14118

BGD002.A0101
Bogdanovka #228/2
Sargat
Bogdanovka_150BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-101
K2a5
R-M207>M173>M420
307142
0,3272
0,02119

BRV001.A0101
Borovoye #240/#15/
Sargat
Borovoye_50BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Kazakhstan
-101
N1a1a1a1a
887542
2,4614
0,28376

BGD001.A0101
Bogdanovka #228/1
Sargat
Bogdanovka_150BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-101
H2a1

136962
0,12489
0,19757

AIG005.A0101
Aigyrly sanctuary individual 4
Scythian
Aigyrly_150CE
Aigyrly_150CE
Kazakhstan
137
K2a5b
R-M207>M173
103795
0,097
0,03447

BRE013.A0101
Berel 2018_68/№2
Hun
Berel_300CE
Xianbei_Hun_Berel_300CE
Kazakhstan
186
D4j8
Q-M242>MEH2>M346>L53
1011974
3,493
0,003

ALN002.A0101
Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials #360/3
Steppe_Central_Nomad_MA
Alai_Nura_300CE
Alai_Nura_300CE
Kyrgyzstan
228

R-M207>M173>M420
146062
0,13463
0,0594

BRE007.A0101
Berel 2017_76
Hun
Berel_300CE
Xianbei_Hun_Berel_300CE
Kazakhstan
233
C4

984914
3,375
0,2303

ALN008.A0101
Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials #360/12
Steppe_Central_Nomad_MA
Alai_Nura_300CE
Alai_Nura_300CE
Kyrgyzstan
250
D4j
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>CTS10298>PF1962>M123
888691
2,72844
0,00593

ALN003.A0101
Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials #360/4
Steppe_Central_Nomad_MA
Alai_Nura_300CE
Alai_Nura_300CE
Kyrgyzstan
250
U5a1g
Q-M242>MEH2>M346>L53>L54>L330
812450
1,44683
0,01066

ALN009.A0101
Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials #360/14
Steppe_Central_Nomad_MA
Alai_Nura_300CE
Alai_Nura_300CE
Kyrgyzstan
250
F1d

537611
0,69705
0,26514

KNT004.A0101
K1/6m
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Otrar-Karatau culture
KNT004.out
Kazakhstan
284
HV18
D-F974>M174>CTS11577>Z3660>M64>Z1519>CTS10054
992455
3,187
0,0008

KNT001.A0101
K1/16_1f
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Otrar-Karatau culture
Konyr_Tobe_300CE
Kazakhstan
294
I1c1
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>M78>PF2179>Z1919>L618>V13
948837
2,695
0,0026

KNT003.A0101
K1/17m
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Otrar-Karatau culture
Konyr_Tobe_300CE
Kazakhstan
300
W3a1
J-M304>M172>M410>CTS7683>L26>PF5088>PF5160>L24>Z393>L25
1002476
3,007
0,0029

KNT002.A0101
K1/16_2f
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Otrar-Karatau culture
Konyr_Tobe_300CE
Kazakhstan
300
T2g1a

967120
3,169
0,2898

ALN001.A0101
Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials #360/1
Steppe_Central_Nomad_MA
Alai_Nura_300CE
Alai_Nura_300CE
Kyrgyzstan
312
U7
Q-M242>MEH2>F1096>F1202>NGQ11>M120
966642
3,22389
0,00322

BRE014.A0101
Berel 2018_68/№1
Hun
Berel_300CE
Xianbei_Hun_Berel_300CE
Kazakhstan
314
A
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162
1009984
3,611
0,0017

BRE008.A0101
Berel 2017_90A
Hun
Berel_300CE
Xianbei_Hun_Berel_300CE
Kazakhstan
315
F1b1f

1017365
3,671
0,2443

BRE004.A0101
Berel 2017_69
Hun
Berel_300CE
Xianbei_Hun_Berel_300CE
Kazakhstan
317
A
Q-M242>MEH2>F1096>M25>L712>YP787>L715>YP844>L713
1021431
3,644
0,0031

KNT005.A0101
K1/1m
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Otrar-Karatau culture
KNT005.out
Kazakhstan
319
U5a1a1
L-M20>M22>M2357>M2533>M357
1015184
3,373
0,0048

ALN004.A0101
Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials #360/5
Steppe_Central_Nomad_MA
Alai_Nura_300CE
ALN004.out
Kyrgyzstan
329

R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269
49079
0,04248
NA

ALN005.A0101
Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials #360/6
Steppe_Central_Nomad_MA
Alai_Nura_300CE
Alai_Nura_300CE
Kyrgyzstan
330
H6b2
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162>Z93>Z94
1019063
3,49141
0,0052

BRE011.A0101
Berel 2018_90
Hun
Berel_300CE
Xianbei_Hun_Berel_300CE
Kazakhstan
331
W3a1
Q-M242>MEH2>F1096>M25>L712>YP787>L715>YP844>L713
947196
2,783
0,0052

HUN001.merged
TU46
Hun
Hungary_Hun_350CE
Hun_elite_350CE
Kazakhstan
376

R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162
247655
0,34256
0,0142

KRY001.A0101
Kurayly 2018
Hun
Kurayly_Hun_380CE
Hun_elite_350CE
Kazakhstan
379
D4j11
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162>Z93>Z94
526619
0,669
0,0062

KKB002.A0101
Karakaba /11
Turkic
Karakaba_830CE
Karakaba_830CE
Kazakhstan
700
C4a1a
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162>Z93
1042091
3,971
0,0031

CHK004.A0101
Chilpek #8189
Steppe_Central_Nomad_MA
Chilpek_800CE
Chilpek_800CE
Kyrgyzstan
804
F1b1f
J-M304>M172>M410
634133
0,83961
0,0302

KKB001.A0101
Karakaba /9
Turkic
Karakaba_830CE
Karakaba_830CE
Kazakhstan
831
T2c1
J-M304>M172>M410
1016889
3,538
0,0023

KLK002.A0101
Kayalyk Mausoleum individual 2
Steppe_Central_Nomad_MA_Hist
Kayalyk_950CE
Kayalyk_950CE
Kazakhstan
900
D4o2a
C-M216>M217>F1906>F3447>F6301>MPB338>FGC16273>F1918
856612
2,382
0,00618

Ajeje Brazorf

03-30-2021, 08:23 AM

<colgroup><col><col></colgroup><tbody>
Sample
EAST EURASIAN %

KAZ_Tasmola_IA_o2:BIR012
97

KAZ_Pazyryk_IA_o:BRE002
96,2

KAZ_Xianbei_Hun_Antiquity:BRE008
95,6

KAZ_Korgantas_IA_o2:KBO001
95,4

KAZ_Tasmola_IA_o2:BIR013
90,6

KAZ_Xianbei_Hun_Antiquity:BRE014
88,4

KAZ_Kayalyk_MA:KLK002
88,2

KAZ_Tasmola_IA_o1:BIR010
79

HUN_Hun_elite_Antiquity:HUN001
75,6

KAZ_Kurayly_Hun_elite_Antiquity:KRY001
72,8

KAZ_Xianbei_Hun_Antiquity:BRE007
64,2

KAZ_Korgantas_IA_o1:BDY001
58,6

KAZ_Mayemer_IA:MMR001
57,6

KAZ_Karakaba_MA:KKB002
51

KAZ_Xianbei_Hun_Antiquity:BRE011
50,4

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:SRK001
48,4

KAZ_Karakaba_MA:KKB001
48

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KYZ002
47

KAZ_Otyrar_Antiquity_o1:KNT004
46,8

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KSH004
45,2

KAZ_Pazyryk_IA:BRE001
44,4

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:NUR002
44,4

KAZ_Saka_TianShan_IA:CSP004
43,8

KAZ_Pazyryk_IA:BRE006
43

KGZ_Chilpek_IA:CHK004
43

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:AKB001
42,2

Sargat_IA:SMV001
41,4

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KSH002
41,2

KAZ_Xianbei_Hun_Antiquity:BRE004
40,2

KAZ_Xianbei_Hun_Antiquity:BRE013
40,2

KAZ_Pazyryk_IA:BRE010
40

KGZ_Alai_Nura_Antiquity_2:ALN003
39,6

Sarmatian_KAZ_Aktobe:SBL001
39,6

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:TAL005
39,2

KAZ_Korgantas_IA:BDY003
39

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KKM001
39

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KSH003
38,6

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:TAL004
38,6

Sargat_IA:BIY008
38,6

Sargat_IA:BIY003
38,4

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KSH001
38

KAZ_Pazyryk_IA:BRE003
37,4

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:ESZ003
37,4

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KYZ001
37,4

Sargat_IA:BIY002
36,8

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:WAR001
36,2

Sargat_IA:SHD001
36

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:ESZ001
35,8

Sargat_IA:BIY009
35,8

KAZ_Pazyryk_IA:BRE009
35,6

KAZ_Pazyryk_IA:BRE012
34,8

KGZ_Alai_Nura_Antiquity_2:ALN005
34,8

KAZ_Saka_TianShan_IA:CSP005
34,6

KGZ_Alai_Nura_Antiquity_2:ALN008
34,4

Sargat_IA:BIY007
34,4

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KZL001
33,6

KAZ_Pazyryk_IA:BRE005
33,2

Sargat_IA:SMV002
33,2

KAZ_Saka_TianShan_IA:CSP002
33

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:TAL003
31,8

Saka_Tian_Shan:CHK003
29,4

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:BKT001
29,2

Saka_Tian_Shan:CHK005
25,2

Sargat_IA:BRV001
24,8

Saka_Tian_Shan:KEN002
23,6

Sargat_IA:BGD002
22,2

KAZ_Saka_TianShan_IA:CSP003
21

Saka_Tian_Shan:KEN001
20,6

KAZ_Tasmola_IA_o3:ESZ002
20,2

Saka_Tian_Shan:KEN003
19,2

KGZ_Alai_Nura_Antiquity_1:ALN001
14,8

Sarmatian_KAZ_Bisoba:BSB003
13,6

Sarmatian_KAZ_Aktobe:KBU001
12,2

Saka_Tian_Shan:ALN006
12

Sarmatian_Segizsay:SGZ002
8,8

Sarmatian_KAZ_Aigyrly:AIG002
8,6

Sarmatian_KAZ_Aktobe:KBU003
8,4

Sarmatian_Segizsay:SGZ001
7,8

Sarmatian_KAZ_Bisoba:BSB001
7,6

Sarmatian_KAZ_Bisoba:BSB002
7,2

KGZ_Alai_Nura_Antiquity_1:ALN009
6

Sarmatian_KAZ_Aigyrly:AIG003
6

KAZ_Otyrar_Antiquity:KNT001
5,8

KAZ_Otyrar_Antiquity:KNT002
5,8

KAZ_Otyrar_Antiquity:KNT003
4,6

Sarmatian_KAZ_Aktobe:KSK002
4,6

KAZ_Kyzyl_EIA:KZL004
0

KAZ_Otyrar_Antiquity:KNT005
0

</tbody>

Zoro

03-30-2021, 08:51 AM

Some quick information about the samples:

Are the samples available now. If so which website?

Kaspias

03-30-2021, 09:22 AM

Are the samples available now. If so which website?

https://edmond.mpdl.mpg.de/imeji/collection/nlbFKLpwCfl1SyNw

andre

03-30-2021, 11:25 AM

..

andre

03-30-2021, 11:43 AM

<colgroup><col><col></colgroup><tbody>
Sample
EAST EURASIAN %

BIR012.A0101:BIR012.A0101
97

BRE002.A0101:BRE002.A0101
96,2

BRE008.A0101:BRE008.A0101
95,6

KBO001.A0101:KBO001.A0101
95,4

BIR013.A0101:BIR013.A0101
90,6

BRE014.A0101:BRE014.A0101
88,4

KLK002.A0101:KLK002.A0101
88,2

BIR010.A0101:BIR010.A0101
79

HUN001.merged:HUN001.merged
75,6

KRY001.A0101:KRY001.A0101
72,8

BRE007.A0101:BRE007.A0101
64

BDY001.A0101:BDY001.A0101
58,6

MMR001.A0101:MMR001.A0101
57,6

KKB002.A0101:KKB002.A0101
51

BRE011.A0101:BRE011.A0101
50,4

SRK001.A0101:SRK001.A0101
48,4

KKB001.A0101:KKB001.A0101
48

KYZ002.A0101:KYZ002.A0101
47

KNT004.A0101:KNT004.A0101
46,8

KSH004.A0101:KSH004.A0101
45,2

BRE001.A0101:BRE001.A0101
44,4

NUR002.A0101:NUR002.A0101
44,4

CSP004.A0101:CSP004.A0101
44

CHK004.A0101:CHK004.A0101
43,2

BRE006.A0101:BRE006.A0101
43

AKB001.A0101:AKB001.A0101
42,2

KSH002.A0101:KSH002.A0101
41,2

SMV001.A0101:SMV001.A0101
41,2

BRE004.A0101:BRE004.A0101
40,2

BRE013.A0101:BRE013.A0101
40,2

BRE010.A0101:BRE010.A0101
40

SBL001.A0101:SBL001.A0101
39,6

ALN003.A0101:ALN003.A0101
39,4

TAL005.A0101:TAL005.A0101
39,4

BDY003.B0101:BDY003.B0101
39

KKM001.A0101:KKM001.A0101
39

BIY008.A0101:BIY008.A0101
38,6

KSH003.A0101:KSH003.A0101
38,6

TAL004.A0101:TAL004.A0101
38,6

BIY003.A0101:BIY003.A0101
38,2

KSH001.A0101:KSH001.A0101
38

KYZ001.A0101:KYZ001.A0101
37,6

BRE003.A0101:BRE003.A0101
37,4

ESZ003.A0101:ESZ003.A0101
37,4

BIY002.A0101:BIY002.A0101
36,8

WAR001.A0101:WAR001.A0101
36,2

SHD001.A0101:SHD001.A0101
36

BIY009.A0101:BIY009.A0101
35,8

ESZ001.A0101:ESZ001.A0101
35,8

BRE009.A0101:BRE009.A0101
35,6

BRE012.A0101:BRE012.A0101
35

ALN005.A0101:ALN005.A0101
34,8

CSP005.A0101:CSP005.A0101
34,6

ALN008.A0101:ALN008.A0101
34,4

BIY007.A0101:BIY007.A0101
34,4

KZL001.A0101:KZL001.A0101
33,8

BRE005.A0101:BRE005.A0101
33,2

SMV002.A0101:SMV002.A0101
33,2

CSP002.A0101:CSP002.A0101
33

TAL003.A0101:TAL003.A0101
31,8

CHK003.A0101:CHK003.A0101
29,4

BKT001.A0101:BKT001.A0101
29,2

CHK005.A0101:CHK005.A0101
25,2

BRV001.A0101:BRV001.A0101
24,8

KEN002.A0101:KEN002.A0101
23,6

BGD002.A0101:BGD002.A0101
22,2

CSP003.A0101:CSP003.A0101
21

KEN001.A0101:KEN001.A0101
20,6

ESZ002.A0101:ESZ002.A0101
20,2

KEN003.A0101:KEN003.A0101
19,2

ALN001.A0101:ALN001.A0101
14,8

BSB003.A0101:BSB003.A0101
13,6

KBU001.A0101:KBU001.A0101
12,2

ALN006.A0101:ALN006.A0101
12

SGZ002.A0101:SGZ002.A0101
9

AIG002.A0101:AIG002.A0101
8,6

KBU003.A0101:KBU003.A0101
8,4

SGZ001.A0101:SGZ001.A0101
7,8

BSB001.A0101:BSB001.A0101
7,6

BSB002.A0101:BSB002.A0101
7

AIG003.A0101:AIG003.A0101
6

ALN009.A0101:ALN009.A0101
6

KNT002.A0101:KNT002.A0101
6

KNT001.A0101:KNT001.A0101
5,8

KNT003.A0101:KNT003.A0101
4,6

KSK002.A0101:KSK002.A0101
4,6

KNT005.A0101:KNT005.A0101
0

KZL004.A0101:KZL004.A0101
0

</tbody>

What samples did you used for differentiate west eurasian/ east eurasian?

Dr_Maul

03-30-2021, 12:58 PM

The Karakaba ones seem to be a good Turkic standard
Y-DNA match with modern Turkics (J2a+R1a) as well as almost exactly 50% Mongoloid the rest steppe with some farmer.

Lucas

03-30-2021, 01:49 PM

K36

Distance: 7.1267% / 7.12665283
Target: Hungary_Hun | ADC: 0.5x
37.6 Kazakh_China
27.6 Tubalar
17.3 Mongol_QH
12.1 Kirghiz_China
5.4 Shor

G25 :)

Target: HUN001.merged:HUN001.merged
Distance: 3.6136% / 0.03613626 | ADC: 0.5x
37.8 Kazakh_China
26.0 Althai_Kizhi
22.6 Khakass_Kachins
8.8 Magar
1.8 Burmese
1.6 Tibetan_Xunhua
1.4 Eskimo_Chaplin

Leto

03-30-2021, 02:02 PM

How much Mongoloid was the Tasmola culture? I guess heterogeneous. Kaspias, please make a rundown on them. :)

Kaspias

03-30-2021, 08:06 PM

How much Mongoloid was the Tasmola culture? I guess heterogeneous. Kaspias, please make a rundown on them. :)

This model should represent the transformation of the Turkic admixture. Baykal_Hovsgol is not 100% East Eurasian, too, so it's Ajeje Brazorf's post below you should check if you want to see exact East Eurasian scores.

https://i.ibb.co/61NvNWP/Tasmola-650-BC.png

East Eurasian scores of Turkic(?) groups seem to be boosted during Xiongnu compared to Early IA.

Ajeje Brazorf

03-30-2021, 08:08 PM

How much Mongoloid was the Tasmola culture? I guess heterogeneous. Kaspias, please make a rundown on them. :)

Heterogeneous.

<colgroup><col><col></colgroup><tbody>
Sample
EAST EURASIAN %

KAZ_Tasmola_IA_o2:BIR012
97

KAZ_Tasmola_IA_o2:BIR013
90,6

KAZ_Tasmola_IA_o1:BIR010
79

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:SRK001
48,4

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KYZ002
47

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KSH004
45,2

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:NUR002
44,4

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:AKB001
42,2

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KSH002
41,2

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:TAL005
39,2

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KKM001
39

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KSH003
38,6

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:TAL004
38,6

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KSH001
38

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:ESZ003
37,4

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KYZ001
37,4

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:WAR001
36,2

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:ESZ001
35,8

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KZL001
33,6

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:TAL003
31,8

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:BKT001
29,2

KAZ_Tasmola_IA_o3:ESZ002
20,2

</tbody>

andre

03-30-2021, 08:25 PM

Heterogeneous.

<colgroup><col><col></colgroup><tbody>
Sample
EAST EURASIAN %

KAZ_Tasmola_IA_o2:BIR012
97

KAZ_Tasmola_IA_o2:BIR013
90,6

KAZ_Tasmola_IA_o1:BIR010
79

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:SRK001
48,4

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KYZ002
47

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KSH004
45,2

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:NUR002
44,4

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:AKB001
42,2

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KSH002
41,2

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:TAL005
39,2

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KKM001
39

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KSH003
38,6

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:TAL004
38,6

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KSH001
38

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:ESZ003
37,4

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KYZ001
37,4

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:WAR001
36,2

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:ESZ001
35,8

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:KZL001
33,6

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:TAL003
31,8

KAZ_Tasmola_IA:BKT001
29,2

KAZ_Tasmola_IA_o3:ESZ002
20,2

</tbody>

Fratellì, che spreedsheet hai usato per individuare l' "East eurasian"? :)

Leto

03-30-2021, 09:09 PM

But were they actually Turkic? According to Wiki Tasmola existed roughly between the years 700 and 300 before Christ. I think they may have been some kind of Scythian with a lot of admixture from South Siberia. Apparently they were heavily R1a paternally.

Kaspias

03-30-2021, 10:07 PM

But were they actually Turkic? According to Wiki Tasmola existed roughly between the years 700 and 300 before Christ. I think they may have been some kind of Scythian with a lot of admixture from South Siberia. Apparently they were heavily R1a paternally.

Baykal and Khovsgol should represent the actual Proto-Turkic group, where Tengri lived with your words. I do not know if these subgroups(Sargat, Saka, Tasmola) identified as "Turks" or spoke mainstream Proto-Turkic(I think they did, otherwise how the whole of Central Asia will inherit an Asian language?) but they seem to be grandfathers of groups later we will know as Turks. Check this again:

https://i.ibb.co/Lr9Gk81/fig3.jpg

Article suggests Eastern Scythians were Khovsgol - Steppe - BMAC mixes. These Eastern Scythians headed to Western, influenced Sarmatians who has an Iran-Ural mix, contributed like 20% of their genome, and started the migration to the West.

Tasmola, Sargat, and Saka cultures are basically subgroups of Eastern Scythians who have the 3-mix I mentioned above. Among these three, Tasmola has negligible BMAC and a rough Steppe-Khovsgol mix. Sargat is like a Uralic admixed Saka, and Saka has a balanced Khovsgol/Steppe/BMAC. Going with this information it is not hard to make conclusions. Earlier Turkic groups should have descended from these cultures. Presence of haplogroups such as R1a and J within these cultures suggests that they were present before/during the shaping of Turkicness, and not acquired through Medieval assimilations.

For example, Oghuz, concluding from modern haplogroup spreading, shows up as a mix of Sargat, Tasmola, and Saka. This points out modern Turkic groups/clans reshaped in Medieval and homogeneity were reached among clans.

Ajeje Brazorf

03-30-2021, 10:12 PM

Fratellì, che spreedsheet hai usato per individuare l' "East eurasian"? :)

Sorry, I forgot to answer your question!

Ju_hoan_North:B_Ju_hoan_North-4,-0.619198,0.062963,0.023759,0.027455,0.000615,-0.002789,0.274022,-0.217376,0.022089,0.010387,0.007795,-0.08977,-0.034043,0.016652,0.03393,-0.045346,0.066365,0.58036,-0.194958,0.010005,-0.077738,-0.005564,0.025512,-0.000482,0.003353
Papuan:HGDP00552,-0.046667,-0.24068,-0.264362,0.318803,0.213578,-0.52292,-0.0047,0.003692,-0.047654,-0.010934,-0.021922,0.003297,0.003271,-0.00055,-0.001493,-0.000796,-0.005215,-0.000507,0.003268,-0.003502,-0.001248,0.003462,0.000493,-0.000482,0.010179
Surui:HGDP00843,0.053497,-0.311768,0.11653,0.11079,-0.119407,-0.026216,-0.33489,-0.398983,-0.019839,-0.022962,0.006496,-0.007943,0.005798,0.039635,-0.016151,0.000133,0.009127,-0.00266,-0.006788,0.001,-0.004118,0.012365,-0.010599,-0.00976,-0.007185
ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso:RMPR15,0.126344,0.11272 4,0.204022,0.208982,0.175417,0.063029,0.014806,0.0 46152,0.113715,0.024602,-0.019162,-0.016635,0.020664,-0.002064,0.06691,0.067753,-0.004824,0.008108,-0.007039,0.067532,0.120787,0.014838,-0.058789,-0.201233,0.017962
Mbuti:S_Mbuti-2.DG,-0.648792,0.054839,0.026398,0.039729,-0.001539,0.011435,0.376017,-0.295834,0.01943,0.030433,-0.014128,0.220903,0.132159,0.004954,0.010586,0.003 05,-0.000913,-0.056883,0.019986,0.005378,0.004742,-0.001113,0.001725,0.003856,0.001916
Ami:NA13615,0.023903,-0.444802,-0.048649,-0.074613,0.14772,0.069723,0,-0.005077,-0.025565,-0.020046,0.049041,0.006444,-0.01219,-0.007844,0.006243,0.006762,0.006258,0.005194,0.007 29,-0.027263,0.008485,-0.029306,0.001356,-0.004338,-0.04778
Even:even2682,0.042115,-0.442771,0.144814,-0.019057,-0.142488,-0.086735,0.028201,0.038306,0.035587,0.024966,0.062 357,0.010041,-0.011596,0.003303,-0.026058,-0.017104,-0.000522,0.017483,0.040726,0.018009,0.058896,-0.062445,0.005916,0.014098,0.026824
Esan_Nigeria:HG03100,-0.633995,0.061947,0.023381,0.010659,0.000615,0.011 156,-0.050292,0.04869,-0.051949,0.033896,0.010393,-0.009292,0.023934,0.006193,0.013708,-0.001591,0.00352,0.004561,0.00264,-0.003252,0.009234,0.000371,-0.002218,0.002169,-0.002155
MAR_Taforalt:TAF010,-0.193499,0.083273,-0.03017,-0.088502,0.034776,-0.055499,-0.076378,0.019384,0.163619,0.008565,0.02111,-0.030573,0.07879,-0.046104,0.077496,-0.046141,-0.00665,-0.069805,-0.144176,0.036518,-0.042924,-0.129217,0.07629,-0.015303,0.018322
GEO_CHG:KK1,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:I1945,0.048944,0.069056,-0.15198,-0.000646,-0.128332,0.031236,0.014806,0.002538,-0.086105,-0.058498,-0.007795,0.002997,-0.001338,-0.000413,0.029858,0.054494,-0.015516,0.003927,0.016466,-0.027763,0.002121,-0.023618,-0.008258,-0.034342,0.020118
ROU_N:I2533,0.126344,0.187873,0.010936,-0.102068,0.060319,-0.055778,0.003055,-0.005769,0.044586,0.095492,0.001299,0.012589,-0.027948,-0.001376,-0.050488,-0.006762,0.034421,-0.000507,0.008547,-0.013381,-0.014974,0.007048,-0.003944,0.005904,-0.011137
Paniya:PY-6,0.012521,-0.169593,-0.188183,0.142444,-0.049548,0.057173,-0.008225,0.017538,0.096944,0.059409,0.008931,0.001 049,-0.002527,0.018579,-0.025651,-0.03739,0.005737,0.002154,0.001006,0.031015,0.0061 14,0.01422,-0.012078,0.00482,-0.008263
Biaka:HGDP00454,-0.641962,0.06804,0.028284,0.038114,0.001846,0.0086 46,0.167798,-0.135687,-0.017794,0.036083,0.016726,-0.160957,-0.05218,-0.00578,0.00475,-0.005038,0.004042,-0.036866,0.014832,-0.001251,0.004243,-0.000989,-0.003081,-0.000482,-0.004431
RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3,0.093335,-0.01828,0.083344,0.231592,-0.091402,0.042949,-0.063688,-0.078228,-0.035383,-0.096221,0.047417,-0.010491,0.023637,-0.074454,0.020358,0.02254,-0.012908,0.003801,-0.003394,0.000625,-0.03706,0.015209,0.013927,0.009278,-0.005149
Sudanese:SUDANESE7,-0.571392,0.046714,-0.007165,-0.007429,-0.005232,-0.002789,-0.00799,0.018922,0.0904,-0.108977,-0.018512,0.020831,-0.047125,0.000688,0.013165,-0.023734,0.021644,-0.012035,0.026145,-0.023261,-0.000998,0.004822,-0.000986,-0.001687,0.003712
Qiang_Danba:DBA01,0.020488,-0.438709,0.006034,-0.05168,0.023081,0.006693,0.004935,0.001154,-0.009613,0.012028,-0.097595,-0.005095,0.009068,-0.010184,-0.012351,-0.001591,0.000782,-0.00152,-0.015838,0.004502,0.005116,0.033015,0.017008,-0.006868,0.037721
Yakut:455_A,0.044391,-0.378792,0.112759,-0.023579,-0.107097,-0.071954,0.029141,0.034845,0.026384,0.024602,0.034 914,0.015586,-0.025867,0.074454,0.045738,0.024927,0.001565,-0.01761,-0.042863,-0.033641,0.000624,0.039198,0.011092,-0.001325,-0.019759
Ket:584_R01C01,0.079676,-0.247789,0.126335,0.052326,-0.107097,-0.029562,0.00188,0.012461,0.002863,-0.028976,0.067878,0.00045,0.020515,-0.10886,-0.024837,-0.014187,0.005998,0.003927,0.014078,-0.002626,-0.028949,0.052676,0.069265,-0.029643,-0.020238
Yemenite_Mahra:Y312,0.061464,0.133034,-0.065996,-0.128555,-0.006155,-0.054663,-0.015981,-0.020307,0.065857,-0.005285,0.017213,-0.027875,0.072844,0.008945,0.015472,0.037258,-0.012126,0.003041,-0.005279,0.026888,0.012353,0.022876,-0.008997,0,-0.006945
Baltic_LVA_BA:Kivutkalns207,0.129758,0.12491,0.110 119,0.114666,0.048932,0.047133,0.016686,0.019384,-0.003477,-0.058316,-0.00341,-0.025777,0.036571,0.052709,-0.014658,-0.009546,-0.00678,-0.003294,-0.006913,0.003252,-0.005366,-0.006554,0.008504,-0.025184,0.001796
JPN_Jomon:I13882,0.014797,-0.337156,-0.054305,0.010336,0.038776,0.010598,-0.001645,-0.002538,0.024543,0.021504,-0.060084,-0.003147,0.008474,-0.009358,-0.020222,-0.014187,0.007823,0.005194,0.01081,-0.006128,0.068629,-0.044391,0.010723,0.013255,-0.104302
MYS_LN:Ma912,0,-0.395041,-0.084098,-0.034561,0.154183,0.068049,-0.007285,-0.010615,-0.005522,-0.018224,0.090938,0.017834,-0.015163,0.006331,0.006922,-0.001061,-0.001695,-0.006841,-0.003394,0.019259,-0.01697,0.012984,-0.009737,0.00723,0.048379
CHN_Western_Liao_River_BA_o:91KLM2,0.022765,-0.468159,0.093149,-0.044251,-0.088632,-0.05271,0.013866,0.025614,0.006749,0.020046,-0.039948,0.001499,-0.006244,0.021882,0.003122,-0.002917,0.001434,-0.003674,0.01081,0.034016,-0.029822,-0.029306,-0.050408,-0.005784,-0.003832

Leto

03-30-2021, 11:51 PM

...
Interesting. But you did not mention the word 'Iranic' at all.:D From your rundown and those maps it looks like those groups were basically an IE-Altaic mix. Lake Khövsgöl is 200 km southwest of Lake Baikal, so that's pretty much Altai.
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2005/05/08/travel/0508_tra_MONGOLIA_map.gif
I guess that specific Mongoloid component is best preserved in modern Tuvans and Altaians.
What I find interesting is that medieval Turkic migrations such as the Uzbek conquest of Transoxania don't seem to have brought much new ancestry to the region since all of their basic components were already present there.

Kaspias

03-31-2021, 11:44 AM

Interesting. But you did not mention the word 'Iranic' at all.:D From your rundown and those maps it looks like those groups were basically an IE-Altaic mix. Lake Khövsgöl is 200 km southwest of Lake Baikal, so that's pretty much Altai.
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2005/05/08/travel/0508_tra_MONGOLIA_map.gif
I guess that specific Mongoloid component is best preserved in modern Tuvans and Altaians.
What I find interesting is that medieval Turkic migrations such as the Uzbek conquest of Transoxania don't seem to have brought much new ancestry to the region since all of their basic components were already present there.

Well, here there are:

https://i.ibb.co/2Z84R4w/iskitalt.png

https://i.ibb.co/j80cKHc/pazirik.png

Distance to: KAZ_Pazyryk_Avg
0.04718949 Bashkir
0.05776577 Tatar_Siberian
0.08400260 Uzbek
0.08983522 Nogai
0.09180960 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye

Distance to: KAZ_Tasmola_Avg
0.04137553 Bashkir
0.04714148 Tatar_Siberian
0.07719485 Nogai
0.08055800 Uzbek
0.08820382 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye

Distance to: KAZ_Saka_TianShan_Avg
0.04671814 Bashkir
0.07104079 Tatar_Siberian
0.08147130 Uzbek
0.08692270 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
0.09204013 Tatar_Lipka

Tasmola and Pazyryk are pretty much the same and that's why Tasmola used as a reference. Saka is also very similar to these two, but as we go Southern direction in the line of Saka spreading, the influence of BMAC increases:

Distance to: Saka_Tian_Shan_Avg
0.07336000 Tatar_Lipka
0.07518239 Besermyan
0.07870232 Tajik
0.08024181 Tatar_Kazan
0.08032388 Turkmen

On the other hand, Sargat shows a Uralic shift.

Distance to: Sargat_Avg
0.05608439 Bashkir
0.05947227 Udmurt
0.06878839 Besermyan
0.08476256 Saami
0.08626989 Tatar_Siberian

So yes, IE had a certain role here.

Dr_Maul

03-31-2021, 01:06 PM

Some quick information about the samples:

Object-ID
Colloquial-Skeletal
Simplified_Culture
Culture_Grouping
Label
Country
Mean Date
mtDNA
Y-DNA
SNPs
Autosomal-Coverage
Damage-Rate

KZL004.A0101
Kyzyl mound 5
Tasmola
Kyzyl_1350BCE
Kyzyl_1350BCE
Kazakhstan
-1367
H5a1

1003141
3,733
0,28299

KSH002.A0101
Karashoky I/8
Tasmola
Karashoky_750BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-842
H101

1023383
3,493
0,2686

CSP005.A0101
Caspan 6 mound 1, Skull #2
Saka
Caspan_700BCE
Saka_TianShan_600BCE
Kazakhstan
-791
T2b4e

793636
1,926
0,25299

CSP003.A0101
Caspan 6 mound 4
Saka
Caspan_700BCE
Saka_TianShan_600BCE
Kazakhstan
-697
I1b
L-M20
1001307
3,072
0,00293

AKB001.A0101
Akbeit I
Tasmola
Akbeit_700BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-688
H6a1a
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162
1050998
4,019
0,0022

KYZ002.A0101
Kyzylshilik /8
Tasmola
Kyzylshilik_660BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-671
HV2a3

999073
3,546
0,2705

ESZ001.A0101
Eleke Sazy
Tasmola
Eleke_Sazy_650BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-670
J1b1a1e
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417
1043244
3,952
0,0028

TAL004.A0101
Taldy II/5
Tasmola
Taldy_650BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-670
A
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162
938570
2,551
0,0022

TAL005.A0101
Taldy II/8
Tasmola
Taldy_650BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-669
H6a1b
C-M216>M217>F1906
883223
2,186
0,0053

BIR012.A0101
Birlik mound 25
Tasmola
Birlik_640BCE
Tasmola_Birlik_640BCE
Kazakhstan
-668

294288
0,30182
0,22732

KSH001.A0101
Karashoky I/1
Tasmola
Karashoky_750BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-667
U5b2a1a2
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162>Z93
1006727
3,279
0,0025

KYZ001.A0101
Kyzylshilik /2
Tasmola
Kyzylshilik_660BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-666
D4i
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162>Z93>Z94
1014898
3,306
0,0031

NUR002.A0101
Nurken II/2 down
Tasmola
Nurken_660BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-663
H6a1b2
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162
824772
1,628
0,0029

BSB001.A0101
Bisoba mound 3, burial1
Sarmatian
Bisoba_650BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-656
T1a1
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198
755046
1,173
0,00673

ESZ003.A0101
Eleke Sazy II/4
Saka
Eleke_Sazy_650BCE
ESZ003_frel_ESZ001
Kazakhstan
-650
J1b1a1e

858775
2,06
0,2611

SRK001.A0101
Serekty II
Tasmola
Serekty_700BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-650
D4e

1011615
3,433
0,2822

BKT001.A0101
Bektauta
Tasmola
Bektauta_650BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-648
C4a1b
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162>Z93>Z94
1003700
3,443
0,0043

BIR013.A0101
Birlik mound 29
Tasmola
Birlik_640BCE
Tasmola_Birlik_640BCE
Kazakhstan
-638
Y1a1

885086
2,15319
0,21497

KZL001.A0101
Kyzyl mound 3 (left side)
Tasmola
Kyzyl_640BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-638
I1a1

1055111
4,112
0,30239

ESZ002.A0101
Eleke Sazy II/9
Saka
Eleke_Sazy_650BCE
ESZ002.out
Kazakhstan
-632
A

686011
1,005
0,1967

NUL001.A0101
Nurly object 6, mound 1
Saka
Nurly_500BCE
Saka_TianShan_600BCE
Kazakhstan
-627
W3a1

90446
0,08058
0,27295

MMR001.A0101
Mayemer-II mound 1
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Mayemer-II_600_BCE
MMR001.out
Kazakhstan
-600
C4a1a4a
J-M304
575147
0,74746
0,01051

BIR010.A0101
Birlik mound 21
Tasmola
Birlik_640BCE
Tasmola_Birlik_640BCE
Kazakhstan
-600
D4b1
Q-M242>MEH2>F1096
639267
0,94619
0,00519

KSH004.A0101
Karashoky VI/1
Tasmola
Karashoky_750BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-600
C4
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162
1013018
2,709
0,0026

KKM001.A0101
Karakemer
Tasmola
Karakemer_700BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-600
H15b1
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162
1020694
3,689
0,0035

TAL003.A0101
Taldy II/4
Tasmola
Taldy_650BCE
TAL003_frel_TAL004
Kazakhstan
-600
U5a1f1
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162>Z93
989385
3,101
0,0035

KSH003.A0101
Karashoky I/6
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Karashoky_750BCE
KSH003_frel_KSH001
Kazakhstan
-600
U5b2a1a2
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162>Z93
854637
2,009
0,0061

WAR001.A0101
37 Warriors
Tasmola
Warrior_600BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-583
H2b
Q-M242>MEH2>M346>L53
1019363
3,529
0,0029

CHK003.A0101
Chilpek #8188
Saka
Chilpek_300BCE
Saka_TianShan_600BCE
Kyrgyzstan
-583

588596
0,7742
0,23102

CHK002.A0101
Chilpek #8187
Saka
Chilpek_300BCE
Saka_TianShan_600BCE
Kyrgyzstan
-580
U4a2

87946
0,07929
0,22319

ALN006.A0101
Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials #360/8
Saka
Alai_Nura_500BCE
Saka_TianShan_600BCE
Kyrgyzstan
-579
U1a1c1d

992628
3,13121
0,30008

KZL003.A0101
Kyzyl mound 4
Tasmola
Kyzyl_640BCE
Tasmola_650BCE
Kazakhstan
-550
I1a1

100212
0,09
0,22011

KEN002.A0101
Ken-Su #651*
Saka
Ken-Su_250BCE
Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Kyrgyzstan
-469
U4a1a

192782
0,196
0,18192

CLK001.A0101
Chelkar #283/1
Sarmatian
Chelkar_500BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-450
A8a1
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417
142570
0,134
0,06754

CHK001.A0101
Chilpek #8186
Saka
Chilpek_300BCE
Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Kyrgyzstan
-448
H1

32886
0,02825
0,22681

AIG001.A0101
Aigyrly sanctuary individual 1
Sarmatian
Aigyrly_300BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-400
U4a1
P-PF5850>P295>M45
56876
0,051
0,12772

AIG002.A0101
Aigyrly sanctuary individual 2
Sarmatian
Aigyrly_300BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-400
D4j3a
R-M207>M173
207316
0,203
0,01095

AIG006.A0101
Aigyrly sanctuary individual 3
Sarmatian
Aigyrly_300BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-400
U5a1g1
R-M207>M173>M420
140557
0,132
0,05346

CSP004.A0101
Caspan 6 mound 1 southwest corner
Saka
Caspan_700BCE
Saka_TianShan_600BCE
Kazakhstan
-400

R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198
490127
0,657
0,01488

SBL001.A0101
Sapibulak object 7, burial 1
Sarmatian
Sapibulak_450BCE
SBL001.out
Kazakhstan
-400
X2b4a

351735
0,39018
0,22692

SGZ002.A0101
Segizsay /2
Sarmatian
Segizsay_300BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-400
A

1031683
3,785
0,1956

CSP002.A0101
Caspan 6 mound 1
Saka
Caspan_700BCE
Saka_TianShan_600BCE
Kazakhstan
-400

529379
0,753
0,25491

ALN007.A0101
Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials #360/10
Saka
Alai_Nura_500BCE
Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Kyrgyzstan
-396
D4i

50555
0,04378
0,06224

SHD002.A0101
Shadrinsk #25/2
Sarmatian
Shadrinsk_400BCE
SHD002.LowCov
Russia
-350
H101
BT-M42
5853
0,00491
NA

BSB004.A0101
Bisoba mound 8, burial 1
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Bisoba_650BCE
BSB004.LowCov
Kazakhstan
-350

CT-M168
20527
0,018
0

SHD001.A0101
Shadrinsk #25/1
Sargat
Shadrinsk_400BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-350
H1
Q-M242>MEH2>M346>L53
1036513
2,76393
0,01306

KBU003.A0101
Kaynbulak II mound 4, burial 4
Sarmatian
Kaynbulak_400BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-350
I4a
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417
373730
0,408
0,02258

KSK002.A0101
Burial ground Krasnoselsky- I KII, P-1, K-3, package No. 18
Sarmatian
Krasnoselsky-I_400BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-350
U5a2a1e

401763
0,44432
0,22774

KBU002.A0101
Kaynbulak II mound 4, burial 2
Sarmatian
Kaynbulak_400BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-350
I4a

225374
0,219
0,24443

KBU001.A0101
Kaynbulak II mound 4, burial 1
Sarmatian
Kaynbulak_400BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-350
U5b2c

504453
0,67
0,2691

BSB002.A0101
Bisoba mound 3, burial3
Sarmatian
Bisoba_650BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-350
U5b2c

625078
0,983
0,24838

BSB003.A0101
Bisoba mound 3, burial3
Sarmatian
Bisoba_650BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-350
T1a1

250398
0,258
0,21686

BIY001.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/12
Sargat
MtBitiya_300BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-330
H7e
NO-M214
117089
0,10622
0,04619

SMV001.A0101
Shmakovo #26/1
Sargat
Shmakovo_350BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-319
U4b1b1
N-M231>L735>F1206>L729>TAT>F1419>L839>L708>M2005
942910
2,90061
0,00467

KBO001.A0101
Karaoba, Korgantas mound 16
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Korgantas
Korgantas_300BCE
Kazakhstan
-317
G2a1d2
Q-M242>MEH2>M346>L53>L54
954343
2,29491
0,00892

BIY012.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/31
Sargat
MtBitiya_300BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-305
U5a1a2a
CT-M168
38514
0,03328
NA

BDY002.A0101
Bidayk mound 1
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Bidayk_300BCE
Korgantas_300BCE
Kazakhstan
-305
D4b1

168368
0,15602
0,16017

CSP001.A0101
Caspan 2 mound 3
Saka
Caspan_300BCE
Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Kazakhstan
-301
G2a3
Q-M242>MEH2
93211
0,087
0,05045

VOR003.A0101
Vorobievo #22/3
Scythian
Vorobievo_350BCE
VOR003.LowCov
Russia
-300

BT-M42
12137
0,01025
0

SMV002.A0101
Shmakovo #26/2
Sargat
Shmakovo_350BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-300
T2d1b2
G-M201
981732
3,01643
0,00387

KOK001.A0101
Kokonovka # 225/2
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Kokonovka_200BCE
KOK001.out
Russia
-300
T2d1b1
Q-M242>L275>NGQ1>M378>Y2265>Y2244>FGC4868
22544
0,01952
NA

KOK003.A0101
Kokonovka #225/4
Sargat
Kokonovka_200BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-300
J2b1a2a

21749
0,01844
0,62578

VOR001.A0101
Vorobievo #22/1
Sargat
Vorobievo_350BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-300
U4d2

53681
0,04642
0,14611

AIG003.A0101
Aigyrly sanctuary individual 6
Sarmatian
Aigyrly_300BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-296
U2e1b

654391
1,078
0,26038

BIY003.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/15
Sargat
MtBitiya_300BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-292
G2a1
N-M231>L735>F1206>L729>TAT
585846
0,75255
0,04022

SGZ001.A0101
Segizsay /1
Sarmatian
Segizsay_300BCE
Sarmatians_450BCE
Kazakhstan
-287
K1b1a

1017243
3,653
0,289

BDY001.A0101
Bidayk
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Bidayk_300BCE
Korgantas_300BCE
Kazakhstan
-282
D4j

802565
1,534
0,2441

BRE002.A0101
Berel 2013/44
Scytho_Siberian
Berel_50BCE
Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE_o
Kazakhstan
-268
D4m2
Q-M242>MEH2>M346>L53>L54>L330
1014113
3,681
0,0035

BRE001.A0101
Berel 2013/5
Scytho_Siberian
Berel_50BCE
Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Kazakhstan
-268
H7b

622585
0,847
0,2027

KEN001.A0101
Ken-Su #551
Saka
Ken-Su_250BCE
Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Kyrgyzstan
-261
A16
J-M304>M172>M410
915954
2,542
0,00719

BIY002.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/14
Sargat
MtBitiya_300BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-250
R1b1
Q-M242>MEH2>M346>L53
510732
0,62659
0,01614

BDY003.B0101
Bidayk mound 3 (in the act this sample recorded repeatedly)
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Bidayk_300BCE
Korgantas_300BCE
Kazakhstan
-204
A8a1
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198
412616
0,46704
-0,001

BRE005.A0101
Berel 2017_80
Scytho_Siberian
Berel_50BCE
Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Kazakhstan
-201
J2b1a2a
Q-M242>MEH2>M346>L53>L54>L330
1030413
3,611
0,0054

KEN003.A0101
Ken-Su 2 #556
Saka
Ken-Su_250BCE
Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Kyrgyzstan
-201
G2a3
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162
435669
0,505
0,06299

BRE006.A0101
Berel 2017_67A
Scytho_Siberian
Berel_50BCE
Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Kazakhstan
-201
U1b2

973303
3,364
0,2704

BRE009.A0101
Berel 2018_105
Scytho_Siberian
Berel_50BCE
Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Kazakhstan
-201
B5b2a2

983044
3,144
0,2978

BRE012.A0101
Berel 2018_76B
Scytho_Siberian
Berel_50BCE
Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Kazakhstan
-201
A8a1

991209
3,472
0,2705

BRE010.A0101
Berel 2018_108A
Scytho_Siberian
Berel_50BCE
Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Kazakhstan
-201
J1b1a1e

963292
2,954
0,257

BRE003.A0101
Berel 2017_80А/80Е
Scytho_Siberian
Berel_50BCE
Pazyryk_Berel_50BCE
Kazakhstan
-201
B5b2a

925308
2,267
0,28

BIY006.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/21
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
MtBitiya_300BCE
BIY006.LowCov
Russia
-200
D4j
CT-M168
6390
0,00541
NA

BIY005.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/20
Sargat
MtBitiya_300BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-200
D4j
F-M89
64218
0,05631
NA

BIY007.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/23
Sargat
MtBitiya_300BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-200
U4b1b1
G-M201
305283
0,31382
0,01768

BIY008.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/24
Sargat
MtBitiya_300BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-200
U4d2
N-M231>L735>F1206>L729>TAT>F1419>L839>L708>M2005>CTS9239>L1026
645461
0,87975
0,01671

BIY009.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/25
Sargat
MtBitiya_300BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-200
N1a1a1a1a
N-M231>L735>F1206>L729>TAT>F1419>L839>L708>M2005>CTS9239>L1026>CTS6967>CTS3103>Z1936
613609
0,88806
0,0073

BIY010.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/26
Sargat
MtBitiya_300BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-200
H2a1
Q-M242>MEH2
23241
0,01997
NA

BIY011.A0101
Mountain Bitiya #228/27
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
MtBitiya_300BCE
BIY011.cont
Russia
-200
U4a1
R-M207>M173
56801
0,0495
0,14057

KOK002.A0101
Kokonovka #225/3
Sargat
Kokonovka_200BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-199

CF-P143
34239
0,02955
0

CHK005.A0101
Chilpek #8191
Saka
Chilpek_300BCE
Saka_TianShan_400BCE
Kyrgyzstan
-151
U1a

629053
1,1203
0,25232

BGD004.A0101
Bogdanovka #228/4
Sargat
Bogdanovka_150BCE
BGD004.cont
Russia
-101
H5b
NO-M214
52410
0,0462
0,14118

BGD002.A0101
Bogdanovka #228/2
Sargat
Bogdanovka_150BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-101
K2a5
R-M207>M173>M420
307142
0,3272
0,02119

BRV001.A0101
Borovoye #240/#15/
Sargat
Borovoye_50BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Kazakhstan
-101
N1a1a1a1a
887542
2,4614
0,28376

BGD001.A0101
Bogdanovka #228/1
Sargat
Bogdanovka_150BCE
Sargat_300BCE
Russia
-101
H2a1

136962
0,12489
0,19757

AIG005.A0101
Aigyrly sanctuary individual 4
Scythian
Aigyrly_150CE
Aigyrly_150CE
Kazakhstan
137
K2a5b
R-M207>M173
103795
0,097
0,03447

BRE013.A0101
Berel 2018_68/№2
Hun
Berel_300CE
Xianbei_Hun_Berel_300CE
Kazakhstan
186
D4j8
Q-M242>MEH2>M346>L53
1011974
3,493
0,003

ALN002.A0101
Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials #360/3
Steppe_Central_Nomad_MA
Alai_Nura_300CE
Alai_Nura_300CE
Kyrgyzstan
228

R-M207>M173>M420
146062
0,13463
0,0594

BRE007.A0101
Berel 2017_76
Hun
Berel_300CE
Xianbei_Hun_Berel_300CE
Kazakhstan
233
C4

984914
3,375
0,2303

ALN008.A0101
Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials #360/12
Steppe_Central_Nomad_MA
Alai_Nura_300CE
Alai_Nura_300CE
Kyrgyzstan
250
D4j
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>Z827>CTS10298>PF1962>M123
888691
2,72844
0,00593

ALN003.A0101
Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials #360/4
Steppe_Central_Nomad_MA
Alai_Nura_300CE
Alai_Nura_300CE
Kyrgyzstan
250
U5a1g
Q-M242>MEH2>M346>L53>L54>L330
812450
1,44683
0,01066

ALN009.A0101
Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials #360/14
Steppe_Central_Nomad_MA
Alai_Nura_300CE
Alai_Nura_300CE
Kyrgyzstan
250
F1d

537611
0,69705
0,26514

KNT004.A0101
K1/6m
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Otrar-Karatau culture
KNT004.out
Kazakhstan
284
HV18
D-F974>M174>CTS11577>Z3660>M64>Z1519>CTS10054
992455
3,187
0,0008

KNT001.A0101
K1/16_1f
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Otrar-Karatau culture
Konyr_Tobe_300CE
Kazakhstan
294
I1c1
E-M96>CTS9083>P147>P177>M215>M35>V68>M78>PF2179>Z1919>L618>V13
948837
2,695
0,0026

KNT003.A0101
K1/17m
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Otrar-Karatau culture
Konyr_Tobe_300CE
Kazakhstan
300
W3a1
J-M304>M172>M410>CTS7683>L26>PF5088>PF5160>L24>Z393>L25
1002476
3,007
0,0029

KNT002.A0101
K1/16_2f
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Otrar-Karatau culture
Konyr_Tobe_300CE
Kazakhstan
300
T2g1a

967120
3,169
0,2898

ALN001.A0101
Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials #360/1
Steppe_Central_Nomad_MA
Alai_Nura_300CE
Alai_Nura_300CE
Kyrgyzstan
312
U7
Q-M242>MEH2>F1096>F1202>NGQ11>M120
966642
3,22389
0,00322

BRE014.A0101
Berel 2018_68/№1
Hun
Berel_300CE
Xianbei_Hun_Berel_300CE
Kazakhstan
314
A
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162
1009984
3,611
0,0017

BRE008.A0101
Berel 2017_90A
Hun
Berel_300CE
Xianbei_Hun_Berel_300CE
Kazakhstan
315
F1b1f

1017365
3,671
0,2443

BRE004.A0101
Berel 2017_69
Hun
Berel_300CE
Xianbei_Hun_Berel_300CE
Kazakhstan
317
A
Q-M242>MEH2>F1096>M25>L712>YP787>L715>YP844>L713
1021431
3,644
0,0031

KNT005.A0101
K1/1m
Steppe_Central_Nomad_IA
Otrar-Karatau culture
KNT005.out
Kazakhstan
319
U5a1a1
L-M20>M22>M2357>M2533>M357
1015184
3,373
0,0048

ALN004.A0101
Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials #360/5
Steppe_Central_Nomad_MA
Alai_Nura_300CE
ALN004.out
Kyrgyzstan
329

R-M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269
49079
0,04248
NA

ALN005.A0101
Alai / Nura I, II, Tuyuk II Burials #360/6
Steppe_Central_Nomad_MA
Alai_Nura_300CE
Alai_Nura_300CE
Kyrgyzstan
330
H6b2
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162>Z93>Z94
1019063
3,49141
0,0052

BRE011.A0101
Berel 2018_90
Hun
Berel_300CE
Xianbei_Hun_Berel_300CE
Kazakhstan
331
W3a1
Q-M242>MEH2>F1096>M25>L712>YP787>L715>YP844>L713
947196
2,783
0,0052

HUN001.merged
TU46
Hun
Hungary_Hun_350CE
Hun_elite_350CE
Kazakhstan
376

R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162
247655
0,34256
0,0142

KRY001.A0101
Kurayly 2018
Hun
Kurayly_Hun_380CE
Hun_elite_350CE
Kazakhstan
379
D4j11
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162>Z93>Z94
526619
0,669
0,0062

KKB002.A0101
Karakaba /11
Turkic
Karakaba_830CE
Karakaba_830CE
Kazakhstan
700
C4a1a
R-M207>M173>M420>M459>M198>M417>PF6162>Z93
1042091
3,971
0,0031

CHK004.A0101
Chilpek #8189
Steppe_Central_Nomad_MA
Chilpek_800CE
Chilpek_800CE
Kyrgyzstan
804
F1b1f
J-M304>M172>M410
634133
0,83961
0,0302

KKB001.A0101
Karakaba /9
Turkic
Karakaba_830CE
Karakaba_830CE
Kazakhstan
831
T2c1
J-M304>M172>M410
1016889
3,538
0,0023

KLK002.A0101
Kayalyk Mausoleum individual 2
Steppe_Central_Nomad_MA_Hist
Kayalyk_950CE
Kayalyk_950CE
Kazakhstan
900
D4o2a
C-M216>M217>F1906>F3447>F6301>MPB338>FGC16273>F1918
856612
2,382
0,00618

I'm pretty amazed at the ones with L-M20, how did it happen?

Leto

03-31-2021, 01:15 PM

On the other hand, Sargat shows a Uralic shift.

Distance to: Sargat_Avg
0.05608439 Bashkir
0.05947227 Udmurt
0.06878839 Besermyan
0.08476256 Saami
0.08626989 Tatar_Siberian
Where were the Sargat samples excavated from? I mean which oblast/region of Russia? I can only recognize Shadrinsk which is in Kurgan oblast. The rest of the toponyms are unknown to me.

Komintasavalta

03-31-2021, 02:25 PM

Where were the Sargat samples excavated from? I mean which oblast/region of Russia? I can only recognize Shadrinsk which is in Kurgan oblast. The rest of the toponyms are unknown to me.

You can see latitude and longitude from the full table S1 (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2021/03/22/7.13.eabe4414.DC1):

$ wget advances.sciencemag.org/highwire/filestream/251812/field_highwire_adjunct_files/0/abe4414_Data_file_S1.xlsx
$ ssconvert abe4414_Data_file_S1.xlsx a.csv
$ ruby -rcsv -e'puts CSV.parse($<).map{|x|x*"\t"}' a.csv|grep Sargat|awk -F\\t -v OFS=, '{print$1,$3,$4,$(NF-1),$NF}'
BGD001.A0101,2nd-1st c. BCE; Sargat horizon,Bogdanovka_150BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BGD002.A0101,2nd-1st c. BCE; Sargat horizon,Bogdanovka_150BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BIY001.A0101,3rd-2nd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,MtBitiya_300BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BIY002.A0101,3rd-2nd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,MtBitiya_300BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BIY003.A0101,3rd-2nd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,MtBitiya_300BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BIY005.A0101,3rd-2nd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,MtBitiya_300BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BIY007.A0101,3rd-2nd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,MtBitiya_300BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BIY008.A0101,3rd-2nd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,MtBitiya_300BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BIY009.A0101,3rd-2nd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,MtBitiya_300BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BIY010.A0101,3rd-2nd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,MtBitiya_300BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BIY012.A0101,3rd-2nd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,MtBitiya_300BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BRV001.A0101,2nd-1st c. BCE/CE; Sargat horizon,Borovoye_50BCE,53.05,70.18
KOK002.A0101,4th-3rd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,Kokonovka_200BCE,54.98981,73.37441
KOK003.A0101,4th-3rd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,Kokonovka_200BCE,54.98981,73.37441
SHD001.A0101,5th-3rd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,Shadrinsk_400BCE,56.5,63.3778482
SMV001.A0101,4th-3rd c. BCE,Shmakovo_350BCE,55.19,64.86
SMV002.A0101,4th-3rd c. BCE,Shmakovo_350BCE,55.19,64.86
VOR001.A0101,5th-2nd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,Vorobievo_350BCE,56.5,63.3778482

If the coordinates are correct, then Vorobievo, Shadrinsk, and Shmakovo are in Kurgan Oblast, and Borovoye is in Burabay district of Kazakhstan. The coordinates of Kokonovka, MtBitiya, and Bogdanovka point to the city of Omsk. There are places named Kokonovka and Gornaya Bitiya in Omsk Oblast based on googling. VK search returns tens of localities named Bogdanovka, but one of them is in Omsk Oblast.

Leto

03-31-2021, 02:40 PM

You can see latitude and longitude from the full table S1 (https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2021/03/22/7.13.eabe4414.DC1):

$ wget advances.sciencemag.org/highwire/filestream/251812/field_highwire_adjunct_files/0/abe4414_Data_file_S1.xlsx
$ ssconvert abe4414_Data_file_S1.xlsx a.csv
$ ruby -rcsv -e'puts CSV.parse($<).map{|x|x*"\t"}' a.csv|grep Sargat|awk -F\\t -v OFS=, '{print$1,$3,$4,$(NF-1),$NF}'
BGD001.A0101,2nd-1st c. BCE; Sargat horizon,Bogdanovka_150BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BGD002.A0101,2nd-1st c. BCE; Sargat horizon,Bogdanovka_150BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BIY001.A0101,3rd-2nd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,MtBitiya_300BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BIY002.A0101,3rd-2nd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,MtBitiya_300BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BIY003.A0101,3rd-2nd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,MtBitiya_300BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BIY005.A0101,3rd-2nd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,MtBitiya_300BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BIY007.A0101,3rd-2nd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,MtBitiya_300BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BIY008.A0101,3rd-2nd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,MtBitiya_300BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BIY009.A0101,3rd-2nd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,MtBitiya_300BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BIY010.A0101,3rd-2nd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,MtBitiya_300BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BIY012.A0101,3rd-2nd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,MtBitiya_300BCE,54.98981,73.37441
BRV001.A0101,2nd-1st c. BCE/CE; Sargat horizon,Borovoye_50BCE,53.05,70.18
KOK002.A0101,4th-3rd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,Kokonovka_200BCE,54.98981,73.37441
KOK003.A0101,4th-3rd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,Kokonovka_200BCE,54.98981,73.37441
SHD001.A0101,5th-3rd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,Shadrinsk_400BCE,56.5,63.3778482
SMV001.A0101,4th-3rd c. BCE,Shmakovo_350BCE,55.19,64.86
SMV002.A0101,4th-3rd c. BCE,Shmakovo_350BCE,55.19,64.86
VOR001.A0101,5th-2nd c. BCE; Sargat horizon,Vorobievo_350BCE,56.5,63.3778482

If the coordinates are correct, then Vorobievo, Shadrinsk, and Shmakovo are in Kurgan Oblast, and Borovoye is in Burabay district of Kazakhstan. The coordinates of Kokonovka, MtBitiya, and Bogdanovka point to the city of Omsk. There are places named Kokonovka and Gornaya Bitiya in Omsk Oblast based on googling. VK search returns tens of localities named Bogdanovka, but one of them is in Omsk Oblast.
Thanks, I see. Basically Kurgan, Tyumen (not in the list but it's right between Kurgan and Omsk), Omsk and Northern Kazakhstan. That's all called Western Siberia.

Leto

03-31-2021, 02:42 PM

Are the Mongols also of Khövsgöl-Baikal descent? Are they not more Southern genetically speaking?

EDIT: apparently, the Donghu were the proto-Mongolic culture and they lived in Northern China.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donghu_people

Kaspias

03-31-2021, 03:27 PM

Are the Mongols also of Khövsgöl-Baikal descent? Are they not more Southern genetically speaking?

EDIT: apparently, the Donghu were the proto-Mongolic culture and they lived in Northern China.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donghu_people

No, they are not. Mongols linked to a further Eastern origin that expanded in Western Mongolia through Xianbei. Article falsifies the Altaic theory which claims the common origin of Mongols and Turks.

Leto

03-31-2021, 03:42 PM

No, they are not. Mongols linked to a further Eastern origin that expanded in Western Mongolia through Xianbei. Article falsifies the Altaic theory which claims the common origin of Mongols and Turks.
What does that mean? Turkic and Mongolic don't have a common origin? I don't know much about that subject but I doubt the Wikipedia article is seriously biased.

Kaspias

03-31-2021, 03:53 PM

What does that mean? Turkic and Mongolic don't have a common origin? I don't know much about that subject but I doubt the Wikipedia article is seriously biased.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages

Previous researches were suggesting the main North Asian languages have a common origin, and their ancestors spoke the same language, and the Altay mountains were the possible birthplace of these groups. This would mean Mongolians and Turks once spoke the same language, and earlier forms of Turkic and Mongolic developed from a Proto Altaic language. Other groups such as Koreans also would be considered as relatives of these two.

This would also mean the same ancestral origin of these communities, but the article does not suggest so. It is not the only one as that theory was pretty much debunked already in the last 10 years, but a supporting hand to recent other works. Anyway, what it suggest is Mongolian origin is further Eastern and Southern as we stated in previous posts, and the Turkic is more closely linked to Siberia with the Khovsgol and Baykal populations having a worthy amount of ANE when compared to Mongolian proxies.

Leto

03-31-2021, 03:56 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages

Previous researches were suggesting the main North Asian languages have a common origin, and their ancestors spoke the same language, and the Altay mountains were the possible birthplace of these groups. This would mean Mongolians and Turks once spoke the same language, and earlier forms of Turkic and Mongolic developed from a Proto Altaic language. Other groups such as Koreans also would be considered as relatives of these two.

This would also mean the same ancestral origin of these communities, but the article does not suggest so. It is not the only one as that theory was pretty much debunked already in the last 10 years, but a supporting hand to recent other works. Anyway, what it suggest is Mongolian origin is further Eastern and Southern as we stated in previous posts, and the Turkic is more closely linked to Siberia with the Khovsgol and Baykal populations having a worthy amount of ANE when compared to Mongolian proxies.
Okay, but the Donghu do appear to have been proto-Mongolic. And they are of course more Southeastern than Khövsgöl-Baikal.

Kaspias

03-31-2021, 03:59 PM

Okay, but the Donghu do appear to have been proto-Mongolic. And they are of course more Southeastern than Khövsgöl-Baikal.

Yeah, that's the case, previously Turkic also claimed to have originated from the Yellow River, in China as well as Proto Mongolic Donghu.

Hektor12

03-31-2021, 04:19 PM

This would also mean the same ancestral origin of these communities, but the article does not suggest so. It is not the only one as that theory was pretty much debunked already in the last 10 years, but a supporting hand to recent other works. Anyway, what it suggest is Mongolian origin is further Eastern and Southern as we stated in previous posts, and the Turkic is more closely linked to Siberia with the Khovsgol and Baykal populations having a worthy amount of ANE when compared to Mongolian proxies.
Hoşgörüne sığınarak, benim gibi bilgisizler için anlatabilirsen ne oluyor şimdi en orijinal Türklerin kökeni? ANE+Step+CM+Mongoloid mi?

Kaspias

03-31-2021, 04:51 PM

Hoşgörüne sığınarak, benim gibi bilgisizler için anlatabilirsen ne oluyor şimdi en orijinal Türklerin kökeni? ANE+Step+CM+Mongoloid mi?

Ne demek, açıklarım tabii. Cilalı taş devrinde bugünki Hövsgöl civarında yaşayan Asyalı bir topluluk var, bunlar 80% küsür Doğu Asyalı, 20% küsür Sibiryalı avcı toplayıcı ve ANE olarak modelleniyorlar ve bugünki Tuvanlılara yakınlar. Bu grubun açık açık Türk olduğu yazmıyor fakat çıkarılabilecek sonuç o şekilde nitekim o dönemde Türklük aynı isimle mi anılıyordu bilmiyoruz, yani elde yeterli bulgu yokken açık açık yazmaları zaten garip olur. Her neyse, makale bu topluluğun, MÖ 1500 civarından başlayarak batı bozkırlarından göçen bir toplulukla gen alışverişinde bulunduğunu söylüyor. Bu ikili karışım olurken ayriyeten bugünkü Güney-Orta Asya bölgesinden de Altay dağlarına doğru Hint Avrupalı göçü oluyor, bunlar genetik olarak Beluçlara denk. Bu üçlü karışım, Doğu İskitlerini oluşturuyor ve Doğu İskitler de sonradan göç ettikleri bölgelere göre 3 farklı grup oluşturuyorlar:

1- Tasmola
2- Sargat
3- Saka

Bu gruplardan Tasmola olan, Kazakistan bozkırında yaşıyor. Sargat Batı Sibirya'da yaşıyor. Saka'da Tanrı Dağlarına doğru göç ediyor. Tasmola Batı'ya doğru göç edip Sarmatlar'a(Sarmatlar İrani, göç ettikleri bölgenin yerli Ural halkları ile karışıklar) müdahale ediyor, genetiklerinin 20% civarına katkıda bulunuyor ve Sarmatların Pontus Bozkırına Batı İskit adıyla göçünü başlatıyor. Yani olayları tetikleyen şey bu olay örgüsü, ancak Batı İskitleri genetik anlamda yine de ağırlıklı olarak İrani yapısını koruyor. Doğu grubu da ağırlıklı olarak Hövsgöl ve Bozkır(Yamnaya benzeri) arası bir yapıda kalıyor.

Gruplara geri dönelim, Sakalar Altay'dan Tanrı'ya kadar bir çizgi halinde yaşıyorlar, Tanrı Dağları grubu daha fazla İrani özellik taşırken üst gruplar daha fazla Hövsgöl taşıyor, bu şekilde homojenlik sağlanıyor. Daha sonra bu Saka denilen grubun hem yerinde kalarak hemde Batı Kazakistan'a göç ederek belirli Türki gruplara katkıda bulunduğunu düşünüyoruz, bunun başında da Oğuzlar geliyor.

Sargat'ta aynı şekilde Ural'ın hemen doğusunda yaşıyor, burada yaşayanlar zamanla Ural topluluklarıyla karışıp baya dengeli bir Hövsgöl - Ural - İran - Bozkır karışımına sahip oluyor. Burada yaşayan topluluklarda sonraki çağlarda çoğunlukla Türklere katılıyor, hatta tahminimce direk Ogurları oluşturuyor.

Tasmola ise Altay bölgesindeki Pazırık Kültürü ile neredeyse aynı karışıma sahip olmasından dolayı referans olarak kullanılmış. Bu da bu mantıkla önce Hun, sonra Göktürk Türklüğünü oluşturmuş olmalı.

Ancak tüm bu toplulukların o dönemde Türkçe konuşup konuşmadığını, kendilerini ne isimle çağırdıklarını bilmiyoruz. Sadece günümüz Türki halklarına katkı yaptıkları konusunda eminiz. Bana soracak olursan Türkçe de konuşmuş olmalılar, aksi halde Türkçe dili tüm Orta Asya'ya bu şekilde egemen olamazdı ancak speküle ediyorum.

Tüm bu nüfus hareketleri milattan önce son buluyor, Hunlarda Türklerin egemenliğini sağlamasıyla ve daha sonra Orta Çağda boy ve bodunların tekrar dağılmasıyla Türklük yeniden şekil değiştiriyor. Atıyorum, Tasmola'ya köklenen bir Göktürk klanı daha sonra Urallardan farklı bir Türki klan ile aynı boy altına giriyor ve orada kendi homojenitesini sağlıyor. Bu aşamada da Hun döneminde Türklerideki Doğu Asya'nın belirli bir düzeyde arttığını görüyoruz, en azından şuana kadar ki örnekler bu şekilde, bunun nedeni hakkında bir açıklama yapılmadı fakat Yenisey emilimi veya Moğollarla kız alıp verme olabilir. Yine Orta Çağa doğru da İran'dan yine bir gen akışı görülüyor, Soğdlar ile başlayıp Perslere kadar genetikte bir etki başlıyor.

Yani gördüğün gibi çok fazla katman var. Eğer Hövsgöllüleri Ön Türk alacaksak, o zaman 80% civarında Doğu Asyalı ve kalanı yukarı Sibiryalı diyebiliriz. Bunlardan sonraki kültürleri, mesela Pazırık, temel alacaksakta deminki karışıma 50% civarıı Yamnaya benzeri bozkır karışımı ekleyebiliriz. Daha sonraki gruplarda da Pazırıkta kaynaşan Bozkır-Hövsgöl grupları İskit adı altında dört bir yana dağılmaya başlıyor, orada işin içine de Ural ve İrani karışımlar giriyor. Orta Çağ ve geç Demir Çağı Türklüğünde de Yenisey, Moğol ve İranilerle yine etkileşimler oluyor.

Hektor12

03-31-2021, 05:15 PM

Orta Çağ ve geç Demir Çağı Türklüğünde de Yenisey, Moğol ve İranilerle yine etkileşimler oluyor.

Mete Han - Tonyukuk dönemi için ne dersin?

Edgü

03-31-2021, 05:22 PM

Mete Han - Tonyukuk dönemi için ne dersin?

Mete Han(Bagatur) ve Tonyukuk dönemi mi ? Hangi dönem bu ? Aralarında ~800 yıl var farkındasın değil mi ?

Hektor12

03-31-2021, 05:26 PM

Mete Han(Bagatur) ve Tonyukuk dönemi mi ? Hangi dönem bu ? Aralarında ~800 yıl var farkındasın değil mi ?

Tamam, o aradaki dönemi soruyorum Çinle falan savaşılan edilen zamanı.

Kaspias

03-31-2021, 05:39 PM

Tamam, o aradaki dönemi soruyorum Çinle falan savaşılan edilen zamanı.

Bahsettiğin dönemler yukarda açıkladığım yeniden şekillenme periyoduna denk, yani bana kalsa o dönemde henüz bir standart/homojenlik yoktu.

Bu konuda paylaşılan Hun Elitinin Türk köken taşıyabileceğini düşünüyorum, bunu referans alırsak neredeyse 100% Hövsgöllüler. Tarih MS 350'ler. Bundan 500 yıl sonra Göktürk döneminden Karakaba örnekleri de 60% küsür Hövsgöl, 25% Bozkır ve 15% İrani olarak modelleniyor. Buradan şunu çıkarabilirsin, Hövsgöl toplumundan Hun döneminde batıya bir göç daha yaşanmış(bu göç Moğol ve Yenisey etkileşimiyle de alakalı olabilir Hövsgölden ziyade) ve Asya skorları yükselmiş. Göktürk dönemi Türkleri de yukardaki grupların mirasını taşımakla birlikte ekstra İrani ve Asya etkisi almış gözüküyorlar, en azından şimdiki örneklere bakarak.

Genel anlamıyla kafanda canlandırabilmek için Tuvan tarzı bir topluluğa Beluç ve Yamnaya tarzı karışımlar eklendiğini düşünebilirsin. Bazı gruplar da ciddi oranda Ural mirası da olmalı ancak genelleme yapılabilecek bir standart oturduğunu o dönemler için düşünmüyorum.

Hektor12

03-31-2021, 05:45 PM

Genel anlamıyla kafanda canlandırabilmek için Tuvan tarzı bir topluluğa Beluç ve Yamnaya tarzı karışımlar eklendiğini düşünebilirsin.

Çok teşekkür ederek son bişey daha; bu benim pontid kesin Yamnaya'dan mı geliyor peki?

Altaylı

03-31-2021, 05:47 PM

Çok teşekkür ederek son bişey daha; bu benim pontid kesin Yamnaya'dan mı geliyor peki?

O öyle anlaşılmıyor taxonomye bakılarak öyle bir şey söylenilemez. Genetiğe bakmak lazım
Sana bugünkü fenotipini veren element genetiğinde %1 bile olabilir ama fazlada olabilir yani :dunno:

Kaspias

03-31-2021, 05:49 PM

Çok teşekkür ederek son bişey daha; bu benim pontid kesin Yamnaya'dan mı geliyor peki?

Rica ederim. Fenotiplerin nereden geldiğini bilmiyorum. Tahminimce Neolitik çiftçilerinin payı Yamnaya'ya kıyasla daha büyük, ama ikisinin hatta Yamnaya'ya ek Sintashta'nın karışımıyla olmuş olabileceğini düşünüyorum.

Kaspias

04-02-2021, 09:08 PM

In other mounds of Karakaba I and Karakaba II, accompanying horse burials and sets of weapons were
also found. In two mounds also fragments of musical instruments were found. These mounds of Karakaba I
and Karakaba II belong to two successive chronological periods, the Hun-Sarmatian and the early medieval
(early Turks) period. There is a connection and continuity (succession) between two periods in their ritual
practices (for example, accompanying horse burials and the construction of mounds). Although, there are
some differences in the construction of mounds and rituals. For example, horses were buried without any
equipment and the horse equipment were deliberately placed at the feet of a buried person in a bottom pit.
These differences reflecting not different ethnocultural traditions, but rather the specifics of social
stratification and some new world outlooks of the population of the region under study in the early Middle
Ages. Findings of musical instruments in three mounds testify features of spiritual development, in particular
with regards to the role of shamanism in the life of the ancient Turkic nomadic society. Cases of trepanation
may be associated with the cult of shamanism (96).

KKB01 turns out the belong: https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y152278/

Chelubey

04-04-2021, 06:59 AM

The peculiarity of clan nomadic societies is that their history is recorded in the clan structure. In the Turkic tribes, there are clans (except for the Turkic ones) of Mongolian, Tungus, Samoyed, Ugric, Tibetan,Caucasic and even Persian and Arabian origin (the founders of these clans were people of Persian and Arab origin). There are no only some "Iranian-Scythian" clans. The same story with Iranian Pashtuns, who have clans with Turkic names. I see no reason to believe that the proto-Turkic people assimilated some numerous "Scythian Iranians" and this process was not reflected in their clan structure. All authentic Scythians were of Turkic origin.

Halgurd

04-04-2021, 11:33 AM

The peculiarity of clan nomadic societies is that their history is recorded in the clan structure. In the Turkic tribes, there are clans (except for the Turkic ones) of Mongolian, Tungus, Samoyed, Ugric, Tibetan,Caucasic and even Persian and Arabian origin (the founders of these clans were people of Persian and Arab origin). There are no only some "Iranian-Scythian" clans. The same story with Iranian Pashtuns, who have clans with Turkic names. I see no reason to believe that the proto-Turkic people assimilated some numerous "Scythian Iranians" and this process was not reflected in their clan structure. All authentic Scythians were of Turkic origin.

How can Scythians be Turkic when the Scythians predate the Turks? Scythians were mentioned as early as the time of the Neo-Assyrian Empire as the Iskuzai, where they raided the northern parts of the empire. You cannot honestly tell me that these were Turks raiding the Neo-Assyrian Empire? During that period, the forefathers of the Turkic groups still had not begun their migration westwards.

If you want to understand the identity of the Scythian then look to their only known direct descendants, the Ossetians.

Leto

04-04-2021, 01:08 PM

The Scythians were largely gone by the year 300, that was before the Hun invasion of Europe. They were Indo-Europeans.

Leto

04-04-2021, 01:10 PM

How can Scythians be Turkic when the Scythians predate the Turks? Scythians were mentioned as early as the time of the Neo-Assyrian Empire as the Iskuzai, where they raided the northern parts of the empire. You cannot honestly tell me that these were Turks raiding the Neo-Assyrian Empire? During that period, the forefathers of the Turkic groups still had not begun their migration westwards.

If you want to understand the identity of the Scythian then look to their only known direct descendants, the Ossetians.
The Ossetians are barely different from their neighbors in terms of genetics though. Even their YDNA is heavily Caucasian (something like 60% G2a). Especially South Ossetia is low in Steppe ancestry.

Chelubey

04-04-2021, 01:40 PM

If you want to understand the identity of the Scythian then look to their only known direct descendants, the Ossetians.
You are new to Scythian issues. Ossetians are settlers from Sogdiana of the 6th century AD.
IBN AL-ASIR

And he (Anushirvan) built the city of Sogdebil in the country of Jorzan (Georgia) and settled Sogdians and Persians in it.
http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/rus/Athir_2/text1.phtml?id=7966
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khosrow_I

The documented evidence vs fantasies (Ossetians from the steppes blah-blah-blah).

Halgurd

04-04-2021, 02:26 PM

The Ossetians are barely different from their neighbors in terms of genetics though. Even their YDNA is heavily Caucasian (something like 60% G2a). Especially South Ossetia is low in Steppe ancestry.

I’m not talking genetics though, I’m talking linguistics. They speak an eastern Iranic language descended from Alanic.

Halgurd

04-04-2021, 02:36 PM

You are new to Scythian issues. Ossetians are settlers from Sogdiana of the 6th century AD.
IBN AL-ASIR

http://www.vostlit.info/Texts/rus/Athir_2/text1.phtml?id=7966
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khosrow_I

The documented evidence vs fantasies (Ossetians from the steppes blah-blah-blah).

So lets just ignore the Caucasian kingdom of Alania :picard1: disappeared into thin air did it?
Plus anyone who believes that the Scythians who raided the neo-Assyrian empire in 800-700BC were Turkic speakers lacks brain cells lol

Halgurd

04-04-2021, 02:52 PM

They were Indo-Europeans.

100%. Those who say otherwise are generally influenced by ethno-nationalist theories (which in all honesty should be kept out of historical discussions).
I don’t know if people here know much about the history of Scythians in West Asia, but they were a formidable force during the reign of the Assyrians and Medes. They were involved in the Median/Babylonian assault on Nineveh. Prior to that, they occupied the province of Media before they were kicked out by Dahyaku, first King of the Medes. They were thought to be based around the town of Saqqez where possible Scythian inscriptions have been found. It’s a well established history. This idea that they were Turks is nonsense.

Their identification as the Izkuzai itself is a clear eastern Iranian term. -Zai being an eastern Iranian suffix (equivalent to western Iranian -zade) meaning descent from. I.e Barakzai. It’s use is common in clan, tribal and family names.

Essarhaddon (Prism B, Col. III, 11, 13-18): "I scattered the Mannean people, intractable barbarians (kutu), and I smote with the sword the armies of(?) Ishpakai, the Scythians (Asgu-sai), -alliance with them did not save him.

Chelubey

04-04-2021, 02:53 PM

So lets just ignore the Caucasian kingdom of Alania :picard1: disappeared into thin air did it?
Plus anyone who believes that the Scythians who raided the neo-Assyrian empire in 800-700BC were Turkic speakers lacks brain cells lol

This is the apogee of the cynicism of the pre-conceived historical science : the Sogdian settlers having east Iranian language were sent by the Persian king to cross the Alan raids on Persia and were enemies of Alans.
This historical information also explains why the Ossetian mtdna is close to the Persian: it was a mixed Sogdian-Persian settlement.

Halgurd

04-04-2021, 03:01 PM

This is the apogee of the cynicism of the pre-conceived historical science : the Sogdian settlers having east Iranian language were sent by the Persian king to cross the Alan raids on Persia and were enemies of Alans.
This historical information also explains why the Ossetian mtdna is close to the Persian: it was a mixed Sogdian-Persian settlement.

You are talking about the 6th century AD. Alania was established in the Caucasus centuries later. It is not that difficult to add up numbers.

Chelubey

04-04-2021, 03:15 PM

You are talking about the 6th century AD. Alania was established in the Caucasus centuries later. It is not that difficult to add up numbers.
You still don't get it? Ossetians are of mixed Sogdian-Persian origin, not Alanian one.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15598217/

Also, with respect to mtDNA, Ossetians are significantly more similar to Iranian groups than to Caucasian groups.

The closest to Ossetians on the maternal line are Iranians (Persians)

Halgurd

04-04-2021, 03:28 PM

You still don't get it? Ossetians are of mixed Sogdian-Persian origin, not Alanian one.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15598217/

The closest to Ossetians on the maternal line are Iranians (Persians)

1. All Persians=Iranian but not all Iranians=Persians but nevertheless on this point I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.
2. You are citing me sources about Persian settlement in Georgia that probably consisted largely of men. Why is a genetic study on mtdna important then? Surely the same would correlate in y-dna if that is the case?

Chelubey

04-04-2021, 03:42 PM

1. All Persians=Iranian but not all Iranians=Persians but nevertheless on this point I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.
2. You are citing me sources about Persian settlement in Georgia that probably consisted largely of men. Why is a genetic study on mtdna important then? Surely the same would correlate in y-dna if that is the case?
No, the article says that the closest to the Ossetian mtDNA are Persian (modern Iranian).
There are several more historical sources shedding light on the ethnogenesis of the Ossetians. One source also records that some of the Georgians tribes changed their language to Iranian. This means that the Ossetians are not only the descendants of the Sogdians and Persians, but also the Georgians who changed their language to Iranian. It is just a random genetic configuration: Ossetians have retained more of their native mtDNA, but on the paternal side they are mostly Georgians, speaking East iranian language.

Halgurd

04-04-2021, 03:56 PM

No, the article says that the closest to the Ossetian mtDNA are Persian (modern Iranian).
There are several more historical sources shedding light on the ethnogenesis of the Ossetians. One source also records that some of the Georgians tribes changed their language to Iranian. This means that the Ossetians are not only the descendants of the Sogdians and Persians, but also the Georgians who changed their language to Iranian. It is just a random genetic configuration: Ossetians have retained more of their native mtDNA, but on the paternal side they are mostly Georgians, speaking East iranian language.

This is bs and you know it. In fact, we have Alanic samples that are G2a and J1 which are both plentiful in the Caucasus.

Chelubey

04-04-2021, 04:29 PM

...

Chelubey

04-04-2021, 04:33 PM

This is bs and you know it. In fact, we have Alanic samples that are G2a and J1 which are both plentiful in the Caucasus.
They are probably already of Caucasian origin .
Probably Iranian warriors preferred to take wives from Persia. Later, among the Ossetians the Caucasian male haplogroups prevailed. This is a historical irony, nevertheless based on real documents and genetics: Ossetians speak Eastern Iranian language, but they are genetically more Georgians and Persians than Eastern Iranians.

Leto

04-04-2021, 07:26 PM

@Kaspias
Is it safe to say that the East Eurasian element of modern Central Asian Turkics is more Southern than that model (Baikal-Khövsgöl)?

Dr_Maul

04-04-2021, 07:50 PM

In other mounds of Karakaba I and Karakaba II, accompanying horse burials and sets of weapons were
also found. In two mounds also fragments of musical instruments were found. These mounds of Karakaba I
and Karakaba II belong to two successive chronological periods, the Hun-Sarmatian and the early medieval
(early Turks) period. There is a connection and continuity (succession) between two periods in their ritual
practices (for example, accompanying horse burials and the construction of mounds). Although, there are
some differences in the construction of mounds and rituals. For example, horses were buried without any
equipment and the horse equipment were deliberately placed at the feet of a buried person in a bottom pit.
These differences reflecting not different ethnocultural traditions, but rather the specifics of social
stratification and some new world outlooks of the population of the region under study in the early Middle
Ages. Findings of musical instruments in three mounds testify features of spiritual development, in particular
with regards to the role of shamanism in the life of the ancient Turkic nomadic society. Cases of trepanation
may be associated with the cult of shamanism (96).

KKB01 turns out the belong: https://yfull.com/tree/J-Y152278/

Another J2 Hyperborean as expected but how come almost all of these Turkic samples have "mongoloid" maternal lines?

Hektor12

04-04-2021, 09:44 PM

how come almost all of these Turkic samples have "mongoloid" maternal lines?

Bro, dont ask questions, give answers. Youre the one with high knowledgo of haplos.

Halgurd

04-04-2021, 09:46 PM

Anyways, I created a model for KNT001 (E-V13 sample)

Target: KAZ_Otyrar_Antiquity:KNT001
Distance: 2.4898% / 0.02489835
52.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
21.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
15.4 Levant_PPNB
7.0 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
4.4 TUR_Barcin_N

Dr_Maul

04-04-2021, 11:46 PM

Bro, dont ask questions, give answers. Youre the one with high knowledgo of haplos.

Well, that knowledge won't help to figure out why a Mongoloid-language people come from Caucasian paternal ancestry

Black Wolf

04-05-2021, 04:47 AM

Well, that knowledge won't help to figure out why a Mongoloid-language people come from Caucasian paternal ancestry

KKB001 has both West Eurasian origin Y-DNA and mtDNA but he has a lot of East Eurasian autosomal DNA as is expected for a medieval Turkic sample. There are also a number of other old J2 Turkic samples that have East Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups though. East Eurasian mtDNA and autosomal DNA among ancient Turks from Central Asia and Mongolia makes sense because of where they came from. They were a good mix of both West Eurasian and East Eurasian ancestries.

Dr_Maul

04-05-2021, 12:50 PM

KKB001 has both West Eurasian origin Y-DNA and mtDNA but he has a lot of East Eurasian autosomal DNA as is expected for a medieval Turkic sample. There are also a number of other old J2 Turkic samples that have East Eurasian mtDNA haplogroups though. East Eurasian mtDNA and autosomal DNA among ancient Turks from Central Asia and Mongolia makes sense because of where they came from. They were a good mix of both West Eurasian and East Eurasian ancestries.

yeah KKB001 is West Eurasian for both. But of the 7 other Medieval Turks with J2, 6 of them have East Eurasian maternal lines. Only TSB001 has Caucasoid mtdna and that one is clearly not "really" Turkic with only 5-10% Mongoloid

Altaylı

04-05-2021, 04:13 PM

I am curious how White Hun autosomal dna look like.
their coins:
https://www.ancient.eu/uploads/images/3941.jpg?v=1603968302
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Khingila_portrait_%28young%29.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Mihirakula_portrait.jpg/220px-Mihirakula_portrait.jpg

Altaylı

04-05-2021, 04:15 PM

Well, that knowledge won't help to figure out why a Mongoloid-language people come from Caucasian paternal ancestry

I think Turkic languages are not related with mongolian

Dr_Maul

04-05-2021, 04:31 PM

I am curious how White Hun autosomal dna look like.

Maybe similar to Wusun, Kangju, Kushan (those are on vahaduo)

Altaylı

04-05-2021, 04:50 PM

Maybe similar to Wusun, Kangju, Kushan (those are on vahaduo)

so weren`t They similar to other Hun people?

Chelubey

04-05-2021, 04:53 PM

Well, that knowledge won't help to figure out why a Mongoloid-language people come from Caucasian paternal ancestry
Turkic expansion is usually associated with "assimilation, conquest". According to your version, there are only two scenarios:
1) Chad Turkic women assimilated Iranian men.
2) Chad Turkic men conquered the Iranian men and gave them their women, while they themselves went to the monastery.
Both scenarios look comical.
By the way, Western Eurasian mtDNA lines dominate among the Bashkirs. As far as I know, the East Eurasian mtDNA has not yet been found among the Karachais-Balkars.
They are related to other Turks on the paternal line R1a-z2123.

Dr_Maul

04-05-2021, 05:12 PM

Turkic expansion is usually associated with "assimilation, conquest". According to your version, there are only two scenarios:
1) Chad Turkic women assimilated Iranian men.

Well, Scythian women did have something like this but I am not endorsing any opinion related to that...

I am talking about Ancient DNA here, idk about Bashkirs or other people. Out of the 18 ancient Turkic Genomes on vahaduo which are not under 10% or over 90% Mongoloid (atypical), 14/18 (78%) have East Eurasian maternal lineages, and 15/18 (83%) have West Eurasian paternal lineages. And if you include the Atypical ones, you realize that they share Y-DNA with those who are under 10% Mongoloid and share maternal lines with those over 90%...

Dr_Maul

04-05-2021, 05:13 PM

so weren`t They similar to other Hun people?

I don't know to be honest, but those I listed were the ones who lived in the same area as them roughly so I assume they were similar

Zoro

04-05-2021, 05:20 PM

Turkic expansion is usually associated with "assimilation, conquest". According to your version, there are only two scenarios:
1) Chad Turkic women assimilated Iranian men.
2) Chad Turkic men conquered the Iranian men and gave them their women, while they themselves went to the monastery.
Both scenarios look comical.
By the way, Western Eurasian mtDNA lines dominate among the Bashkirs. As far as I know, the East Eurasian mtDNA has not yet been found among the Karachais-Balkars.
They are related to other Turks on the paternal line R1a-z2123.

I think most people are confused because they associate haplogroups with single ethnic groups such as Iranic, Turkic, etc. Whereas in reality the situation is much more complex.

You are correct in that R1a is not strictly Iranic or Indo-European. It is infact a mixed Turkic/Iranic haplogroup. Here's an easy example to illustrate how R1a became mixed Turkic/Iranic.

So migrations are usually associated with male lines and languages with female lines since the men spend most of their day outside the home or are killed in battles etc

Example:

We start out with a Turkic male Y-DNA migrating from Altai to C. Asia. Let's just say Y-DNA Q. In C Asia Q takes has a daughter. Since there's some type of alliance between the Turkics and Iranics in C Asia, or maybe to strengthen the alliance his daughter marries an R1a Iranic and they have kids.

The sons will show R1a even though they are autosomally 50% or 25% Turkic. The sons will speak Turkic and be R1a. If the sons take W3 wifes from C. Asia then the kids may speak Iranic but will still have Turkic DNA.

Hopefully this helps some of the confusion

Zoro

04-05-2021, 05:58 PM

I think most people are confused because they associate haplogroups with single ethnic groups such as Iranic, Turkic, etc. Whereas in reality the situation is much more complex.

You are correct in that R1a is not strictly Iranic or Indo-European. It is infact a mixed Turkic/Iranic haplogroup. Here's an easy example to illustrate how R1a became mixed Turkic/Iranic.

So migrations are usually associated with male lines and languages with female lines since the men spend most of their day outside the home or are killed in battles etc

Example:

We start out with a Turkic male Y-DNA migrating from Altai to C. Asia. Let's just say Y-DNA Q. In C Asia Q has a daughter. Since there's some type of alliance between the Turkics and Iranics in C Asia, or maybe to strengthen the alliance his daughter marries an R1a Iranic and they have kids.

The sons will show R1a even though they are autosomally 50% or 25% Turkic. The sons will speak Turkic and be R1a. If the sons take W3 wifes from C. Asia then the kids may speak Iranic but will still have Turkic DNA.

Hopefully this helps some of the confusion

This doesn't imply all R1a is heavily Turkic admixed. Only the R1a where Turkics had a heavy presence (Uyghur, Tajiks, some Scythians, etc). The R1a in Europe retained more of its original Indo-European except for some additional ENF. The R1a in W. Asia has more Iranic admix and so on.

Chelubey

04-06-2021, 10:43 AM

Well, Scythian women did have something like this but I am not endorsing any opinion related to that...

I am talking about Ancient DNA here, idk about Bashkirs or other people. Out of the 18 ancient Turkic Genomes on vahaduo which are not under 10% or over 90% Mongoloid (atypical), 14/18 (78%) have East Eurasian maternal lineages, and 15/18 (83%) have West Eurasian paternal lineages. And if you include the Atypical ones, you realize that they share Y-DNA with those who are under 10% Mongoloid and share maternal lines with those over 90%...

Not all Turkic peoples descend from the so-called "ancient Turks".
An analogy can be created: the East Eurasian genetics of the Turks can be compared to the "fermer" components of the Europeans. Somewhere this component makes up half of the gene pool, somewhere it strongly predominates. However, why don't you think that women farmers imposed their language on Europeans?

Altaylı

04-06-2021, 11:42 AM

Turkic expansion is usually associated with "assimilation, conquest". According to your version, there are only two scenarios:
1) Chad Turkic women assimilated Iranian men.
2) Chad Turkic men conquered the Iranian men and gave them their women, while they themselves went to the monastery.
Both scenarios look comical.
By the way, Western Eurasian mtDNA lines dominate among the Bashkirs. As far as I know, the East Eurasian mtDNA has not yet been found among the Karachais-Balkars.
They are related to other Turks on the paternal line R1a-z2123.

You forgot third scenario

3) Tengri created Turks eurasian and spawned in the world because Turks warriors of tengri and these warriors should be clever(coming from mongoloid side), well built(coming from caucasoid side (like being tall) ) at the same time

Vallah Third scenario makes sense i think

Leto

04-06-2021, 11:58 AM

You forgot third scenario

3) Tengri created Turks eurasian and spawned in the world because Turks warriors of tengri and these warriors should be clever(coming from mongoloid side), well built(coming from caucasoid side (like being tall) ) at the same time

Vallah Third scenario makes sense i think
Tengri himself scored 100% Tungus-Altaic on Gedmatch :cool:

Altaylı

04-06-2021, 12:03 PM

Tengri himself scored 100% Tungus-Altaic on Gedmatch :cool:

Can you post his gedmatch results? I am wondering too much:lightbul:

Frowning Man

04-06-2021, 12:35 PM

No, the article says that the closest to the Ossetian mtDNA are Persian (modern Iranian).
There are several more historical sources shedding light on the ethnogenesis of the Ossetians. One source also records that some of the Georgians tribes changed their language to Iranian. This means that the Ossetians are not only the descendants of the Sogdians and Persians, but also the Georgians who changed their language to Iranian. It is just a random genetic configuration: Ossetians have retained more of their native mtDNA, but on the paternal side they are mostly Georgians, speaking East iranian language.

I heard that there are a large number of assimilated Svans and Mingrels among the Ossetians. From some Ossetian surnames it quickly becomes clear. But I do not know whether there are many such assimilated among the Ossetians. G2a1 dominates among Western Georgians as well as among Ossetians.

Dr_Maul

04-06-2021, 01:06 PM

Not all Turkic peoples descend from the so-called "ancient Turks".
Well, I mean Medieval Turks (600-1200 AD) surely all Central Asian Turks descend from these. Maybe except some assimilated Tungusic group or Pontics.

An analogy can be created: the East Eurasian genetics of the Turks can be compared to the "fermer" components of the Europeans. Somewhere this component makes up half of the gene pool, somewhere it strongly predominates. However, why don't you think that women farmers imposed their language on Europeans?

I agree with the analogy, but here is where it gets confusing. The same way that Europeans do not speak Neolithic Farmer language, Turks should not be speaking an "east eurasian" language, but they do. So that is why it is a bit confusing. But you know what, it is not the most surprising thing in History. The Basques can speak paleo-european language and have 90% Steppe Y-DNA. The Dagestanis can have more Steppe than Southern Europeans yet speak Caucasian farmer language. History is not linear in the way we would expect. However undoubtedly Turks are Caucasian by paternal origin in terms of genetics.

Hektor12

04-06-2021, 01:46 PM

However undoubtedly Turks are Caucasian by paternal origin in terms of genetics.There are also a few E-V13 (Karaboğa) can be found.

Chelubey

04-06-2021, 02:27 PM

I heard that there are a large number of assimilated Svans and Mingrels among the Ossetians. From some Ossetian surnames it quickly becomes clear. But I do not know whether there are many such assimilated among the Ossetians. G2a1 dominates among Western Georgians as well as among Ossetians.
And this process also was documented:
http://apsnyteka.org/1116-voronov_y_nauchnye_trudy_tom_I_kolkhida_na_rubezhe _srednevekovya.html

in Svania, the "king" rules and "their country is passed by the Scythians", that is, various North Caucasian peoples, and the Suans, "thieves and robbers", live on the peaks of the Caucasus, their affairs are "the most terrible and wicked", they themselves are "from the Svans became Persians "

Chelubey

04-06-2021, 02:32 PM

...

Chelubey

04-06-2021, 02:35 PM

I agree with the analogy, but here is where it gets confusing. The same way that Europeans do not speak Neolithic Farmer language, Turks should not be speaking an "east eurasian" language, but they do. So that is why it is a bit confusing. But you know what, it is not the most surprising thing in History. The Basques can speak paleo-european language and have 90% Steppe Y-DNA. The Dagestanis can have more Steppe than Southern Europeans yet speak Caucasian farmer language. History is not linear in the way we would expect. However undoubtedly Turks are Caucasian by paternal origin in terms of genetics.
You yourself see many exceptions.
As I remember, the ancestor of the hg R* was found far away in Asia (Malta boy or something like that). So why shouldn't the R- language be Eastern Eurasian?

Dr_Maul

04-06-2021, 03:31 PM

As I remember, the ancestor of the hg R* was found far away in Asia (Malta boy or something like that). So why shouldn't the R- language be Eastern Eurasian?

Malta boy was ANE. They are closer to West Eurasians than East Eurasians. Not to mention the subclades of R1. Turkic samples with R1b (L584) and R1a (Z93) is Afanasievo/Yamnaya and Andronovo respectively, both of which descending from European Hunter gatherers (who was 75% ANE, Malta boy like). Not to mention the other haplos in Medieval Turks such as J2 which are undoubtedly Caucasoid. Most likely Turks underwent language replacement, how and when is not known to me yet. Other option is that Turkic language is simply Caucasoid originally, and those similarities with Asian ones are either mix of loanwords or exaggeration.

Leto

04-06-2021, 03:50 PM

I heard that there are a large number of assimilated Svans and Mingrels among the Ossetians. From some Ossetian surnames it quickly becomes clear. But I do not know whether there are many such assimilated among the Ossetians. G2a1 dominates among Western Georgians as well as among Ossetians.
I heard Joseph Stalin was paternally Ossetian.

Leto

04-06-2021, 03:53 PM

Looks like there are two groups which are discussed over & over again - the Slavs and the Turkics. How much Slavic blood does this group have? How much Turkic is that group?

Frowning Man

04-06-2021, 04:25 PM

I heard Joseph Stalin was paternally Ossetian.

Yes, there is such a theory. I was told that Ossetians love her very much. His surname is Dzhugashvili. Dzhuga from the dialect of the Georgian mountaineers means Steel"Сталь". Hence the surname Сталин. You can also translate "Jugha" - a man looking after a flock of sheep. But these are theories. He seemed to call himself a Georgian. Although I am somehow not interested who he can be a Georgian, maybe an Ossetian.

Leto

04-06-2021, 04:38 PM

Yes, there is such a theory. I was told that Ossetians love her very much. His surname is Dzhugashvili. Dzhuga from the dialect of the Georgian mountaineers means Steel"Сталь". Hence the surname Сталин. You can also translate "Jugha" - a man looking after a flock of sheep. But these are theories. He seemed to call himself a Georgian. Although I am somehow not interested who he can be a Georgian, maybe an Ossetian.
Yep. Doesn't matter much. It's almost like with Adolf Hitler - he is German and not Austrian but Mozart is Austrian and not German :D
But Stalin was G2a and interestingly his half-Russian (maybe something else too) daughter Svetlana Alliluyeva was pretty light
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/Svetlana_Alliluyeva_1967.jpg/640px-Svetlana_Alliluyeva_1967.jpg

Frowning Man

04-06-2021, 04:50 PM

Yep. Doesn't matter much. It's almost like with Adolf Hitler - he is German and not Austrian but Mozart is Austrian and not German :D
But Stalin was G2a and interestingly his half-Russian (maybe something else too) daughter Svetlana Alliluyeva was pretty light
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/82/Svetlana_Alliluyeva_1967.jpg/640px-Svetlana_Alliluyeva_1967.jpg

What's so surprising that his daughter was depigmented?

Impaler

04-06-2021, 05:03 PM

Yep. Doesn't matter much. It's almost like with Adolf Hitler - he is German and not Austrian but Mozart is Austrian and not German :D
But Stalin was G2a and interestingly his half-Russian (maybe something else too) daughter Svetlana Alliluyeva was pretty light

Mozart wasn't 100% Austrian.

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart’s father, Leopold Mozart, was born in Augsburg, today part of Bavaria, Germany. Wolfgang Amadeus himself was born in Salzburg, which today is in Austria.

Leto

04-06-2021, 05:10 PM

What's so surprising that his daughter was depigmented?
Well, Georgians are considered "chorny" by some. You don't need me to tell this to you ;)

Leto

04-06-2021, 05:19 PM

Mozart wasn't 100% Austrian.

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart’s father, Leopold Mozart, was born in Augsburg, today part of Bavaria, Germany. Wolfgang Amadeus himself was born in Salzburg, which today is in Austria.
Dude, this is completely besides the point. Austrian ethnic identity didn't even exist back then when Mozart was alive. My point was that the Austrians are eager to claim Mozart as a fellow Austrian but not Hitler.

Leto

04-06-2021, 05:28 PM

@Kaspias
Is it safe to say that the East Eurasian element of modern Central Asian Turkics is more Southern than that model (Baikal-Khövsgöl)?
Kaspias, are you still around? This question is at least not offtopic.

Frowning Man

04-06-2021, 05:40 PM

Well, Georgians are considered "chorny" by some. You don't need me to tell this to you ;)

Ahaha. Well, then I'm not Georgian, I'm not dark) Georgians have brown hair and brown eyes. We are southerners. But Georgians are not darker than other Caucasians (Ossetians, Chechens, Dagestanis, Circassians). But if we compare with the northerners, then yes, we are dark)

Leto

04-06-2021, 05:48 PM

Ahaha. Well, then I'm not Georgian, I'm not dark) Georgians have brown hair and brown eyes. We are southerners. But Georgians are not darker than other Caucasians (Ossetians, Chechens, Dagestanis, Circassians). But if we compare with the northerners, then yes, we are dark)
Sure, that's ignorance. The fact is that Georgians are noticeably lighter on average than Azerbaijanis and Armenians (can't say about Turkey as a whole but Eastern Turkey is pretty dark too). Those maps from an old Soviet book look realistic (Western Georgia being the lightest part of the Caucasus). And that's quite unusual because Steppe ancestry in Georgia seems to be negligible, particularly compared to Dagestan. Dags and Nokhchi also have different faces, different features. They somehow look markedly Muslim unlike Georgians and Armenians.

I wish you were into Gedmatch, we could revise and update the existing averages.

Frowning Man

04-06-2021, 06:10 PM

Sure, that's ignorance. The fact is that Georgians are noticeably lighter on average than Azerbaijanis and Armenians (can't say about Turkey as a whole but Eastern Turkey is pretty dark too). Those maps from an old Soviet book look realistic (Western Georgia being the lightest part of the Caucasus). And that's quite unusual because Steppe ancestry in Georgia seems to be negligible, particularly compared to Dagestan. Dags and Nokhchi also have different faces, different features. They somehow look markedly Muslim unlike Georgians and Armenians.

I wish you were into Gedmatch, we could revise and update the existing averages.

I don’t understand many nuances. But why, on this forum, depigmentation, for example, in the Caucasus, is associated with a steppe admixture? For example, Western Georgia, one of the most depigmented regions of the Caucasus, but at the same time we have almost no steppe admixture. Maybe because of CHG.

I am going to buy an autosome test soon. But I think I will have 100% Western Asia, or 100% Caucasus, or 100% Western Georgia. There will be no steppe admixture, European or Middle Eastern. I am a very typical Northwest Georgian.

Leto

04-06-2021, 06:25 PM

I don’t understand many nuances. But why, on this forum, depigmentation, for example, in the Caucasus, is associated with a steppe admixture? For example, Western Georgia, one of the most depigmented regions of the Caucasus, but at the same time we have almost no steppe admixture. Maybe because of CHG.

Well, Northern Europeans have more Steppe than Southern ones and everyone knows the proverbial darkness of Italy and lightness of Scandinavia for example. Perhaps it's much more complex in reality.

I am going to buy an autosome test soon. But I think I will have 100% Western Asia, or 100% Caucasus, or 100% Western Georgia. There will be no steppe admixture, European or Middle Eastern. I am a very typical Northwest Georgian.
Good. Hopefully we'll analyze your results here.

Kaspias

04-06-2021, 06:48 PM

Kaspias, are you still around? This question is at least not offtopic.

Hey, I'm here. The majority of Asian ancestry falls into Khovsgol and Ural.

https://i.ibb.co/m8NBGbf/Ads-z.png

Leto

04-06-2021, 06:56 PM

Hey, I'm here. The majority of Asian ancestry falls into Khovsgol and Ural.

[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/m8NBGbf/Ads-z.png
That's confusing. What is Amur-Xianbei? Why are the Yakuts supposed to be majority Amur-Xianbei but the Hazara are literally zero?

I think Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan all have a decent chunk of Mongol ancestry (post Genghis Khan). Even Timur himself was reportedly of Turkified Mongol descent.

Mejgusu

04-06-2021, 07:05 PM

That's confusing. What is Amur-Xianbei? Why are the Yakuts supposed to be majority Amur-Xianbei but the Hazara are literally zero?

I think Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan all have a distant chunk of Mongol ancestry (post Genghis Khan). Even Timur himself was reportedly of Turkified Mongol descent.

I can’t explain why Uzbeks have a lot of Y-Dna C, but they are mostly of Turkic origin. It is well reported that they absorbed a lot of Oghuz and Kipchak groups. Also it seems that Afghanistan Uzbeks have totally different Y-Dna compositions. Uzbeks are very close to their Karluk ancestors, just have Iranic influence. Imo Mongol influence on Uzbeks is often highly exaggerated, but actually true if it comes to Kazakhs and Kirgiz.

If you would ask me, they are also a good proxy for pre Anatolian Oghuzes, just more Iranic shifted. Maybe they were more Euro too.

Dr_Maul

04-06-2021, 07:19 PM

I can’t explain why Uzbeks have a lot of Y-Dna C, but they are mostly of Turkic origin. It is well reported that they absorbed a lot of Oghuz and Kipchak groups. Also it seems that Afghanistan Uzbeks have totally different Y-Dna compositions. Uzbeks are very close to their Karluk ancestors, just have Iranic influence. Imo Mongol influence on Uzbeks is often highly exaggerated, but actually true if it comes to Kazakhs and Kirgiz.

If you would ask me, they are also a good proxy for pre Anatolian Oghuzes, just more Iranic shifted. Maybe they were more Euro too.

Majority of Uzbeks seem to be of predominantly Karluk descent (not counting those with recent Tajik admix) however some of their tribes/surnames have clear Mongol origins such as Jalair, Naiman, etc. Most likely their C comes from these families. Especially Mongols after conversion to Islam I think would be living in modern Uzbek areas. Using Medieval Karluks from Vahaduo and Kushan as Iranic they get low distance for 75% Karluk 25% Iranic, which makes sense I think.

Kaspias

04-06-2021, 07:25 PM

That's confusing. What is Amur-Xianbei? Why are the Yakuts supposed to be majority Amur-Xianbei but the Hazara are literally zero?

I think Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan all have a decent chunk of Mongol ancestry (post Genghis Khan). Even Timur himself was reportedly of Turkified Mongol descent.

It is confusing because situation's itself is also confusing. Those tribes that we name as Mongol, Turk all reshaped in Xiongnu and later in Medieval, especially after Mongol Empire. I doubt there was a separation of ethnicities in these confederations, any tribe who can ride a horse was a natural soldier no matter what language they speak, assimilation happened very easily. So there should be an actual overlap between Mongols and Turks. In addition, I consider it "calculator effect" as the reason of why we do not see Xianbei scores in Hazara, even though Hazara is actually partly Turkic.

If you ask me -not based on scores but also combining the historical perspective- I do believe the source of Asian admixture in West Asia, Eastern Europe and Turkmenistan -except for Nogay, Kalmyk- is mainly Hövsgöl and Ural. The further Eastern/Southern admixture is seen as you go to Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan.

Based on the modern spreading I wouldn't surprise if Oghuz who arrived in Anatolia and Balkans were like 40% N, for example. One can make conclusions based on that.

Distance to: CHN_Amur_River_Xianbei_IA
0.05809915 Nanai
0.07131279 Negidal
0.07484685 Ulchi
0.07631893 Oroqen
0.08273370 Khamnegan
0.08917056 Nivkh
0.10733461 Hezhen
0.11071688 Daur
0.12135283 Buryat
0.12293490 Todzin

Mejgusu

04-06-2021, 07:43 PM

Majority of Uzbeks seem to be of predominantly Karluk descent (not counting those with recent Tajik admix) however some of their tribes/surnames have clear Mongol origins such as Jalair, Naiman, etc. Most likely their C comes from these families. Especially Mongols after conversion to Islam I think would be living in modern Uzbek areas. Using Medieval Karluks from Vahaduo and Kushan as Iranic they get low distance for 75% Karluk 25% Iranic, which makes sense I think.

They also have Oghuz tribe names. I am not sure about this Muslim Mongols, the ethnic background of Timurs tribe for example is very controversial, only Ilkhanates have with Hazaras surely Mongolian descendants. Also you shouldn’t underestimate the Iranic dominance there, which is stronger than Turkic dominance(culturally). Many Tadjiks are clearly highly Uzbek/Turkic influenced genetically because of their dominance, which is very funny considering that Westasian Turks, who are itself highly Iranic influenced culturally, are bearing a huge Turkic influence on their geography.

Dr_Maul

04-06-2021, 10:46 PM

They also have Oghuz tribe names. I am not sure about this Muslim Mongols, the ethnic background of Timurs tribe for example is very controversial, only Ilkhanates have with Hazaras surely Mongolian descendants. Also you shouldn’t underestimate the Iranic dominance there, which is stronger than Turkic dominance(culturally). Many Tadjiks are clearly highly Uzbek/Turkic influenced genetically because of their dominance, which is very funny considering that Westasian Turks, who are itself highly Iranic influenced culturally, are bearing a huge Turkic influence on their geography.

To be honest I think every Turkic group has almost every tribe in their ethnic mix. More it seems like the language is based off of what is dominant. Tatars and Northern Turks speak Kipchak because of that confederation. Golden Horde, who was Kipchacized, also furthered this process. Uzbek and Uyghur are carrying on because of Karakhanids who created Chagatai (Karluk based) language. In Anatolia and Iran because of Oghuz (Seljuk) presence. Etc.

Chelubey

04-07-2021, 01:36 AM

Majority of Uzbeks seem to be of predominantly Karluk descent (not counting those with recent Tajik admix) however some of their tribes/surnames have clear Mongol origins such as Jalair, Naiman, etc. Most likely their C comes from these families. Especially Mongols after conversion to Islam I think would be living in modern Uzbek areas. Using Medieval Karluks from Vahaduo and Kushan as Iranic they get low distance for 75% Karluk 25% Iranic, which makes sense I think.
Some of the 92 Uzbek tribes are listed here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbeks
I marked the tribes of Mongolian origin in bold. I also marked with a sign? tribes whose names do not sound in Uzbek, but in Mongolian ( with initial j and so on), but their origin is unknown to me. The origin of about 20% of the tribes from this list is unknown to me.

Manghit, Qiyat, Qipchaq, Khitai, Qanghli, Keneges, Durman, Targhut, Shoran, Shirin, Tama, Bahrin, Girai(?), Aghrikur, Anghit, Barkut, Tubin(Mong. Tabyn?), Tam, Ramdan, Matin, Busa, Yajqar, Qilwai, Dojar, Jaurat(?), Qurlaut, Mehdi, Kilaji, Sakhtiiyan, Qirq, Ming, Yuz, Saroi, Loqai, Qushchi, Kerait, Chaqmaq, Utarchi, Turcoman, Arlat, Kait, Qirghiz, Qalan, Uishun, Ormaq, Chubi, Lechi, Qari, Moghul, Hafiz dad Kaln, Belad Bustan, Quchi Qataghan, Barlas, Yabu, Jalair, Misit, Naiman, Samrjiq, Qarluq, Arghun, Oklan, Qalmaq (?), Fuladchi, Jaljat Uljin or Olchin, Chimbai(?), Tilabi, Machar or Majar, Ojinbai, Badai As, Kilchi, Ilaji, Jebergen(?), Botiyai, Timan, Yankuz, Tatar(?), Uighur, Baghlan or Baghan, Tanghut, Shagird, Pesha, Tushlub, Onk, Biyat, Ozjolaji, Josolaji(?), Tuwadiq, Ghariband Jit.

Mejgusu

04-07-2021, 10:32 AM

Some of the 92 Uzbek tribes are listed here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzbeks
I marked the tribes of Mongolian origin in bold. I also marked with a sign? tribes whose names do not sound in Uzbek, but in Mongolian ( with initial j and so on), but their origin is unknown to me. The origin of about 20% of the tribes from this list is unknown to me.

Manghit, Qiyat, Qipchaq, Khitai, Qanghli, Keneges, Durman, Targhut, Shoran, Shirin, Tama, Bahrin, Girai(?), Aghrikur, Anghit, Barkut, Tubin(Mong. Tabyn?), Tam, Ramdan, Matin, Busa, Yajqar, Qilwai, Dojar, Jaurat(?), Qurlaut, Mehdi, Kilaji, Sakhtiiyan, Qirq, Ming, Yuz, Saroi, Loqai, Qushchi, Kerait, Chaqmaq, Utarchi, Turcoman, Arlat, Kait, Qirghiz, Qalan, Uishun, Ormaq, Chubi, Lechi, Qari, Moghul, Hafiz dad Kaln, Belad Bustan, Quchi Qataghan, Barlas, Yabu, Jalair, Misit, Naiman, Samrjiq, Qarluq, Arghun, Oklan, Qalmaq (?), Fuladchi, Jaljat Uljin or Olchin, Chimbai(?), Tilabi, Machar or Majar, Ojinbai, Badai As, Kilchi, Ilaji, Jebergen(?), Botiyai, Timan, Yankuz, Tatar(?), Uighur, Baghlan or Baghan, Tanghut, Shagird, Pesha, Tushlub, Onk, Biyat, Ozjolaji, Josolaji(?), Tuwadiq, Ghariband Jit.

You shouldn’t trust to Wikipedia, I also often use it but this list reveals some mistakes. Some seem to be true but I doubt there is a tribe of Ming, they dont say Turcoman(they say Turkman) same problem with other words. Also I doubt that besides of ethnic Turkmens there call themselves as „Turkman“. I can remember once there was „Sogdian“ in the list? There are a some tribes of Oghuz origin which aren’t even listened. So this list must made by some authors who are suggesting something or this list is could have something to do with Non-Uzbeks like Karakalpaks or Tadjiks(some terms are Non-Turkic).

Chelubey

04-07-2021, 06:40 PM

You shouldn’t trust to Wikipedia, I also often use it but this list reveals some mistakes. Some seem to be true but I doubt there is a tribe of Ming, they dont say Turcoman(they say Turkman) same problem with other words. Also I doubt that besides of ethnic Turkmens there call themselves as „Turkman“. I can remember once there was „Sogdian“ in the list? There are a some tribes of Oghuz origin which aren’t even listened. So this list must made by some authors who are suggesting something or this list is could have something to do with Non-Uzbeks like Karakalpaks or Tadjiks(some terms are Non-Turkic).
Ming is a big Uzbek tribe. Some researchers say that this is Turkic tribe, others say that it comes from the Mongolian tribe Myng. But their genealogical legend(Shejere,which usally is truth) says that they are the descendants of the Genghisids.

Mejgusu

04-07-2021, 06:49 PM

Ming is a big Uzbek tribe. Some researchers say that this is Turkic tribe, others say that it comes from the Mongolian tribe Myng. But their genealogical legend(which usally is truth) says that they are the descendants of the Genghisids.

According Wikipedia it says it has a connection to Ming dynasty, it could be Mongolian which means thousand but Turkic too since we say bin which is very similar. Only Uzbek khan(name giver of this people) was highly Turkified descendant of Cengiz, but overwhelming majority of Uzbeks are of Turkic origin. This genealogy thing is very controversial, if I am not wrong Timur even claimed he was a descendant of Ali. Early Ottomans claimed to be descendant of Oghuz khan(personally i am believing in his existence) but he was just a mythological figur. Noble dynasties always claimed things without any proofs to embellish their background.

Chelubey

04-07-2021, 07:14 PM

According Wikipedia it says it has a connection to Ming dynasty, it could be Mongolian which means thousand but Turkic too since we say bin which is very similar. Only Uzbek khan(name giver of this people) was highly Turkified descendant of Cengiz, but overwhelming majority of Uzbeks are of Turkic origin. This genealogy thing is very controversial, if I am not wrong Timur even claimed he was a descendant of Ali. Early Ottomans claimed to be descendant of Oghuz khan(personally i am believing in his existence) but he was just a mythological figur. Noble dynasties always claimed things without any proofs to embellish their background.
Shejere is not just "legend", you know it. Ottoman legend about Oghuz khan is not a classic "Shejere", as i know.
Members of this tribe know the smallest details about the genus of Genghisids and experts have no doubts that the legend is true. Now geneticists compare the Turkic Shezheres with genealogy and in most cases confirm their veracity.

Kaspias

04-08-2021, 09:56 AM

Haplogroup results are refined.

https://i.ibb.co/DtnnbVv/IMG-9367.png

Two individuals with exactly the same subclade as I.

https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/Q-F16045/

BRE002:

Distance to: KAZ_Pazyryk_IA_o:BRE002
0.02615181 MNG_EIA_3
0.02853828 MNG_Slab_Grave_EIA_1
0.03003831 RUS_Fofonovo_En
0.03022705 RUS_Shamanka_N
0.03083786 RUS_Lokomotiv_N

Distance to: KAZ_Pazyryk_IA_o:BRE002
0.03985176 Khamnegan
0.06972456 Oroqen
0.07126940 Nanai
0.07362577 Tuvinian
0.07760760 Ulchi

https://i.ibb.co/ggV9dN6/Berel.png

KBO001:

Distance to: KAZ_Korgantas_IA:KBO001
0.02872667 MNG_EIA_3
0.03175481 KAZ_Hun-Sarmatian
0.03945824 KAZ_Nomad_HP
0.04191794 RUS_Shamanka_N
0.04322690 RUS_Late_Xiongnu

Distance to: KAZ_Korgantas_IA:KBO001
0.03641392 Khamnegan
0.05780948 Tuvinian
0.06626052 Mogush
0.06665504 Buryat
0.07239184 Todzin

https://i.ibb.co/6ZrTRg2/KARAOBA.png

Chelubey

09-24-2021, 04:34 PM

Malta boy was ANE. They are closer to West Eurasians than East Eurasians.
It does not matter. Geography matters here and phylogeny too - hg R is brother of asiatic hg Q. The language of hg R belonged at start to asiatic family.

Other option is that Turkic language is simply Caucasoid originally, and those similarities with Asian ones are either mix of loanwords or exaggeration.
This circumstance (above) explains well the distant similarity of the Altaic languages. It's just that hg R had a different story, later some of the languages of this group migrated back to Asia.
Undoubtedly, the Altai languages interacted in the Bronze Age - the cultural vocabulary of these languages is very similar. (Japanese "tenkir", Mongolian "dengir", Turkic "tengri"- god). I think one subclade of hg R- is Turkic/para-Turkic/source of Turkic language, Q- Mongolian, C- Tungusic ( Mongolian C are assimilated Tungusic people).
Perhaps the Finnish language also belonged to the hg R (hg N changed own language to one of the R-languages)

Komintasavalta

09-24-2021, 04:51 PM

(Japanese "tenkir", Mongolian "dengir", Turkic "tengri"- god)

The Japanese language doesn't have words that end in the letter "r". "Ten" (天) means heaven in Japanese, but it's a loan from Chinese "tiān". The Japanese word "ten" also has a meaning like "universal order", similar to the concept of tiān in Taoism and Confusianism, but it is not viewed as having personhood in the sense of the god of Abrahamic religions.

Dr_Maul

09-24-2021, 04:53 PM

It does not matter. Geography matters here and phylogeny too - hg R is brother of asiatic hg Q. The language of hg R belonged at start to asiatic family.

This circumstance (above) explains well the distant similarity of the Altaic languages. It's just that hg R had a different story, later some of the languages of this group migrated back to Asia.
Undoubtedly, the Altai languages interacted in the Bronze Age - the cultural vocabulary of these languages is very similar. (Japanese "tenkir", Mongolian "dengir", Turkic "tengri"- god). I think one subclade of hg R- is Turkic/para-Turkic/source of Turkic language, Q- Mongolian, C- Tungusic ( Mongolian C are assimilated Tungusic people).
Perhaps the Finnish language also belonged to the hg R (hg N changed own language to one of the R-languages)

But that R carrier is found to have genetic similarities to Caucasians and Native americans (Q) but not other Asians

Chelubey

09-24-2021, 05:43 PM

The Japanese language doesn't have words that end in the letter "r". "Ten" (天) means heaven in Japanese, but it's a loan from Chinese "tiān". The Japanese word "ten" also has a meaning like "universal order", similar to the concept of tiān in Taoism and Confusianism, but it is not viewed as having personhood in the sense of the god of Abrahamic religions.
Maybe *tenke or similar form - i dont remember.

Chelubey

09-24-2021, 05:50 PM

But that R carrier is found to have genetic similarities to Caucasians and Native americans (Q) but not other Asians
But it is not identical. As I said, hg R had a different story than other Asian groups. Native americans have Asian origin.

Chelubey

09-24-2021, 06:42 PM

Look at the Turkic words that mark major agricultural crops.
Turkic "chavdar, aryzh' ( rye ) - from Iranian and Slavic sources.
Turkic / Mongolian "arpa,arbay" (barley) - from Iranian "arbasya" or other similar source.
Chuvash "pyra"(wheat) - from IE source (Old Greek "puro-s", pra-Slavic "pira").
Altaic "tary / tara" (etc.) (millet)- Dutch "tarve" - wheat, Sanskrit "durva" - a type of millet.
Turkic / Mongolian *sarb-an (plow, also sharp cutting part of plow) - from PIE "sarp" - sickle.
Also Turkic/Mongolian "urug" (seed,corn) - PIE "urugio" - rye.
The total influence of IE farmer's lexicon on proto-Turkic language. This is not like the scenario when the Turkic peoples first met IE in the person of "Iranian herders".