Proto-Slavs were more northern than Ukrainian average?

[Jana]

When running K13 models for SE/central Europeans, for their Slavic input they prefer these 2 populations

-Ukrainian Belgorod (Ukrainians from city in southern Russia who are more northern than Ukrainian average)
-Belarusian Minsk (obviously more northern than UA average)

Before people were saying how Belarusians are Baltic admixed (which is true) and more northern than proto Slavs who would be closer to UA average but why do south Slavs prefer these 2?
We also have some Baltic like ydna (R1a Z92 for example)

This could mean invading Slavs were already Baltic admixed in the first place.

Eastern Balkans and Moldova prefer SW Russians as Slavic proxy too but that should be discarded because SW Russians have some Siberian admix like eastern Balkans (from different source though) and that's why they pick up them.

[Token]

I've heard rumours of Korchak Proto-Slavs being Lithuanian-like, but i'm not sure about their veracity.

[Jana]

I've heard rumours of Prague-Korchak Proto-Slavs being Lithuanian-like, but i'm not sure about their veracity.

Very intriguing.

[Leto]

"Ukrainian_Belgorod" and "SW_Russian" are almost the same, Belgorod is SW Russia. I would personally remove it and replace with something like "Ukrainian_Kharkov" (at least on Ukrainian territory). Davidski made it up basically.

[Token]

Very intriguing.

It is very annoying having to pan for Slavic proxies in random papers like we are doing now when literally half of Europe can't be modelled without Slavic admixture. I hope the rumor is true and we finally get some definitely Slavic samples soon.

[sevruk]

-Ukrainian Belgorod (Ukrainians from city in southern Russia who are more northern than Ukrainian average)
they are obviously just southern Russians from Belgorod

[Jana]

My result with using Lithuanians as early Slavic proxy

Target: Stearsolina
Distance: 2.8739% / 2.87387130

57.2 Slavic
42.8 Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman

[Jana]

Stears with using Lithuanians

Target: Stears
Distance: 0.7969% / 0.79687372

41.7 Slavic
32.7 Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman
17.1 Germanic
8.5 Turkic

Hun Prince :love:

[vbnetkhio]

My result with using Lithuanians as early Slavic proxy

Target: Stearsolina
Distance: 2.8739% / 2.87387130

57.2 Slavic
42.8 Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman

even if proto-Slavs were like that, they could've been different by the time they reached the Balkans.
The average of AV1 and AV2 is our current best guess on what early South Slavs were like.

[Jana]

even if proto-Slavs were like that, they could've been different by the time they reached the Balkans.
The average of AV1 and AV2 is our current best guess on what early South Slavs were like.

What about pre-Slavic? Would you discard Thraco-Cimmerian because it has some Balto-Slavic like (Scythian) admixture?
I did, but maybe I am wrong about it.

[Rethel]

Somebody here heard about term Balto-Slavs?

[Jana]

Somebody here heard about term Balto-Slavs?

Yeah, but they separated....

[Figaro]

Are Belarusians the most Baltic admixed Slavs (as a whole group average)? I’d also be quite curious who brought mtDNA N1b1 to Belarus and Ukraine.

[Jana]

Are Belarusians the most Baltic admixed Slavs (as a whole group average)?

Yeah they are. But Russians living near Belarus are similarly Baltic admixed ofc.


I’d also be quite curious who brought mtDNA N1b1 to Belarus and Ukraine.

Jews IMO, as far as I remember it's one of several typical Jewish mtdnas.

[Rethel]

Yeah, but they separated....

It doesn't mean, they had to have different au. Later, when Slavs get in contact
with other people yes, but protoones are suspected to have the same as Balts.

[Jana]

It doesn't mean, they had to have different au. Later, when Slavs get in contact
with other people yes, but protoones are suspected to have the same as Balts.

Yes, possible especially with what Token wrote about possibility of proto Slavs being Lithuanians like in au.

[Peterski]

I've heard rumours of Korchak Proto-Slavs being Lithuanian-like, but i'm not sure about their veracity.

Even some of Krakauer Berg samples are "Lithuanian-like" in Global25. But when I use K36 they are not similar to Lithuanians.

With K36 averages only KRA007 is Lithuanian-shifted:

Sample - closest populations (top three):

KRA001 - 1. Poles, 2. Ukrainians, 3. Belarusians
KRA002 - 1. Lusatian Sorbs, 2. Poles, 3. Czesi
KRA003 - 1. Poles, 2. Lusatian Sorbs, 3. Czesi
KRA004 - 1. Poles, 2. Belarusians, 3. Ukrainians
KRA005 - 1. Ukrainians, 2. Poles, 3. Belarusians
KRA006 - 1. Lusatian Sorbs, 2. Poles, 3. Ukrainians
KRA007 - 1. Poles, 2. Belarusians, 3. Lithuanians
KRA008 - 1. Poles, 2. Ukrainians, 3. Belarusians
KRA009 - 1. Lusatian Sorbs, 2. Poles, 3. Ukrainians
KRA010 - 1. Poles, 2. Ukrainians, 3. Belarusians
KRA011 - 1. Poles, 2. Belarusians, 3. Ukrainians

=====

BTW, there are also some Slavs in this study (samples from Late Medieval Lübeck):

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3762113

So far I checked two:

Lübeck_HGH1600:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
IS_Iceland
0.9041875
NL_Overijssel
0.9436731
DK_Northern-Jutland
0.9439364
DK_Faroe-Islands
0.9491206
GB_Shetland
0.9769964
DE_Westfalen
0.9770727
DK_Zealand
0.9776641
NO_Vestlandet
0.9782811
(...)

Lübeck_HGH1579:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
DE_Nordfriesland
1.094312
NL_Drenthe
1.166477
NL_Noord-Holland
1.224142
DE_Schleswig
1.226541
DE_Niedersachsen
1.242422
NL_Gelderland
1.257951
(...)

[Jana]

Even some of Krakauer Berg samples are "Lithuanian-like" in Global25. But when I use K36 they are not similar to Lithuanians.

With K36 averages only KRA007 is Lithuanian-shifted:

Sample - closest populations (top three):

KRA001 - 1. Poles, 2. Ukrainians, 3. Belarusians
KRA002 - 1. Lusatian Sorbs, 2. Poles, 3. Czesi
KRA003 - 1. Poles, 2. Lusatian Sorbs, 3. Czesi
KRA004 - 1. Poles, 2. Belarusians, 3. Ukrainians
KRA005 - 1. Ukrainians, 2. Poles, 3. Belarusians
KRA006 - 1. Lusatian Sorbs, 2. Poles, 3. Ukrainians
KRA007 - 1. Poles, 2. Belarusians, 3. Lithuanians
KRA008 - 1. Poles, 2. Ukrainians, 3. Belarusians
KRA009 - 1. Lusatian Sorbs, 2. Poles, 3. Ukrainians
KRA010 - 1. Poles, 2. Ukrainians, 3. Belarusians
KRA011 - 1. Poles, 2. Belarusians, 3. Ukrainians

K36 is not good calc IMO, because some components there are very drifted (like Finish).

[Peterski]

Some individuals from Medieval Lübeck in Eurogenes K15 and K13:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?344986-DNA-from-Medieval-L%FCbeck

^^^
According to the Abstract, some inhabitants of Lübeck were autosomally North European, and others were autosomally East European:

"Our results also showed that the disease victims were people of northern and eastern European descent, confirming that Hanseatic Lübeck was an important trading centre for the Baltic region."

These two samples have Northern European results based on K15:


<tbody>
Distance to:
Lübeck_HGH1600


4.18751716
Dutch_North


5.33962546
West_Norwegian


5.54262573
Norwegian


5.76683622
Danish


5.98036788
Norway

</tbody>


<tbody>
Distance to:
Lübeck_HGH1429


3.03805859
Danish


4.61929648
Swedish


4.73858629
Norway


4.84176621
Dutch_Central


5.01895407
Norwegian

</tbody>

It seems "East Germans" did not exist in Lübeck, but 2 distinct groups.

=====

About Slavonia near Lübeck:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?248977-Can-someone-translate-this-Greek-text-to-English

[vbnetkhio]

What about pre-Slavic? Would you discard Thraco-Cimmerian because it has some Balto-Slavic like (Scythian) admixture?
I did, but maybe I am wrong about it.

The bigger problem with that sample is that it's from a territory which was never under Roman rule. It works very well as a pre-Slavic Balkan proxy, but it could be overfitting.

these are the closest thing we have to pre-Slavic Balkan samples:


HUN_MA_Szolad_SZ28,0.124067,0.148267,0.029793,-0.008075,0.032006,-0.006972,0.00047,-0.003461,0.015339,0.032074,-0.004547,0.007493,-0.014569,0.002064,-0.005293,0.000928,0.006389,0.00266,0.006662,-0.004627,0.004742,0.002226,-0.005176,-0.00494,-0.001557
HUN_MA_Szolad_SZ32,0.111547,0.157407,0.015085,-0.024871,0.026466,-0.015618,0.00141,-0.002308,0.005727,0.019135,0.002598,0.001798,-0.011298,-0.008808,-0.004072,0.002784,0.003651,0.001014,-0.000126,-0.002001,-0.006239,0.000495,0.00456,-0.01458,-0.001916
HUN_MA_Szolad_SZ36,0.117238,0.148267,0.011691,-0.025517,0.028313,-0.010319,0.003525,0.006923,0.00225,0.02041,0.00308 5,-0.000599,-0.009663,-0.004679,-0.001357,0.005834,0.00326,-0.000887,0.000377,0.001501,-0.008111,0.004451,0.006779,0.001566,-0.000479
HUN_MA_Szolad_SZ37,0.118376,0.139128,0.014708,-0.012597,0.01231,-0.006414,-0.004935,0.011769,0.004704,0.013121,-0.003735,0.004796,-0.013379,-0.001514,-0.008143,-0.00053,-0.00326,-0.005574,0.01257,-0.002626,-0.006738,0.006306,-0.000246,0.001807,-0.006706
HUN_MA_Szolad_SZ40,0.108132,0.149283,0.00264,-0.037791,0.018157,-0.010598,0.00094,-0.014538,0.003477,0.026789,-0.002436,0.008243,-0.007582,-0.008945,-0.00285,0.005304,0.020731,-0.003927,-0.000377,0.000375,-0.011355,0.00507,0.002218,0.00482,-0.005149
HUN_MA_Szolad_SZ43,0.122929,0.145221,0.01697,-0.019057,0.030775,-0.01506,-0.004465,-0.004154,0.009613,0.020775,0.002436,0.005545,-0.011596,-0.007019,0.00095,-0.006364,0.011343,0.000507,0.005656,-0.00075,-0.006239,0.000989,0.004314,0.006145,-0.001078
HUN_MA_Szolad_o1:SZ19,0.120652,0.167562,0.012822,-0.045866,0.035391,-0.022869,-0.00047,-0.000923,0.001023,0.045559,0.007145,0.01079,-0.013528,0.007844,-0.014115,-0.018297,-0.003129,0.003421,0.008547,-0.016258,-0.010232,0.003462,0.005793,0.007832,0.001317

I would also add modern-day Dodecanese Greeks to this.

they work well for Serbs, even though they are from Pannonia. Maybe SZ19 and SZ40 were rare outliers for Pannonia, and more typical for areas further south?

[vbnetkhio]

Even some of Krakauer Berg samples are "Lithuanian-like" in Global25. But when I use K36 they are not similar to Lithuanians.

With K36 averages only KRA007 is Lithuanian-shifted:

Sample - closest populations (top three):

KRA001 - 1. Poles, 2. Ukrainians, 3. Belarusians
KRA002 - 1. Lusatian Sorbs, 2. Poles, 3. Czesi
KRA003 - 1. Poles, 2. Lusatian Sorbs, 3. Czesi
KRA004 - 1. Poles, 2. Belarusians, 3. Ukrainians
KRA005 - 1. Ukrainians, 2. Poles, 3. Belarusians
KRA006 - 1. Lusatian Sorbs, 2. Poles, 3. Ukrainians
KRA007 - 1. Poles, 2. Belarusians, 3. Lithuanians
KRA008 - 1. Poles, 2. Ukrainians, 3. Belarusians
KRA009 - 1. Lusatian Sorbs, 2. Poles, 3. Ukrainians
KRA010 - 1. Poles, 2. Ukrainians, 3. Belarusians
KRA011 - 1. Poles, 2. Belarusians, 3. Ukrainians

=====

BTW, there are also some Slavs in this study (samples from Late Medieval Lübeck):

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3762113

So far I checked two:

Lübeck_HGH1600:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
IS_Iceland
0.9041875
NL_Overijssel
0.9436731
DK_Northern-Jutland
0.9439364
DK_Faroe-Islands
0.9491206
GB_Shetland
0.9769964
DE_Westfalen
0.9770727
DK_Zealand
0.9776641
NO_Vestlandet
0.9782811
(...)

Lübeck_HGH1579:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
DE_Nordfriesland
1.094312
NL_Drenthe
1.166477
NL_Noord-Holland
1.224142
DE_Schleswig
1.226541
DE_Niedersachsen
1.242422
NL_Gelderland
1.257951
(...)

any luck with those anceint Polish BAMs I posted in the other thread?

[Jaromir]

"Ukrainian_Belgorod" and "SW_Russian" are almost the same, Belgorod is SW Russia. I would personally remove it and replace with something like "Ukrainian_Kharkov" (at least on Ukrainian territory). Davidski made it up basically.

the town is wrongly chosen or what?

https://i.postimg.cc/fRM5R738/2xbelgorod.png

Ukrainian Belgorod is very South Ukrainian

[smd555]

-Ukrainian Belgorod (Ukrainians from city in southern Russia who are more northern than Ukrainian average)


It should be noted that out of 6 academic samples of Ukrainians from Belgorod, half (three) are closest matches, that is, relatives:

MW3377762 UkrBel614 EN2489269 UkrBel618 LV6894312 UkrBel620

Sloboda Ukraine was settled by Ukrainians from different regions. Here is another Ukrainian from the Belgorod region:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 45.79
2 North_Atlantic 30.87
3 East_Med 7.86
4 West_Med 6.92
5 West_Asian 4.8
6 South_Asian 2.11
7 Amerindian 1.55
8 Oceanian 0.07
9 Siberian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Belorussian 5.13
2 Polish 5.14
3 Russian_Smolensk 5.66
4 Estonian_Polish 5.72
5 Southwest_Russian 5.77
6 South_Polish 5.89
7 Ukrainian_Belgorod 6.46
8 Ukrainian 6.47
9 Ukrainian_Lviv 7.61
10 Estonian 8.85
11 Lithuanian 9.36
12 Finnish 10.37
13 Kargopol_Russian 10.45
14 Southwest_Finnish 10.62
15 Croatian 12.01
16 East_Finnish 12.09
17 Erzya 13
18 Hungarian 14.07
19 East_German 15.17
20 Moldavian 15.19

[smd555]

Proto-Slavs were more northern than Ukrainian average?

...or more southern. What interested me was the ratio of Mediterranean components to K13. For most Slavs, it is very similar, regardless of the total percentage of the Mediterranean admixture. For example, the West Med component predominates approximately one and a half to two times over the West Asian and East Med components. This is especially true of the area of Prague culture, but also can be found in other Slavic regions:

Belorussian,29.37,49.40,7.59,3.87,4.98,1.44,0.97,0 .18,1.32,0.18,0.38,0.20,0.13
Russian_Southwest,25.91,47.21,8.25,6.80,6.26,0.55, 1.00,0.22,2.14,0.81,0.43,0.19,0.23
Ukrainian,26.53,45.54,10.39,5.93,6.34,0.90,0.97,0. 43,1.33,0.70,0.47,0.19,0.27
Ukrainian_Galicia,27.87,39.97,12.58,7.17,7.51,1.27 ,1.03,0.33,1.17,0.57,0.37,0.09,0.07
Ukrainian_Carpathian,26.50,38.13,13.24,7.09,9.82,1 .21,1.06,0.35,1.41,0.65,0.25,0.16,0.13
Croat,28.10,33.15,15.02,7.76,12.05,1.40,0.49,0.28, 0.59,0.54,0.38,0.12,0.10
Czech,33.53,37.14,12.43,5.94,7,0.9,1.18,0.14,0.66, 0.59,0.26,0.19,0.13
South_Polish,30.66,42.03,11.08,6.56,6.22,0.35,1.02 ,0.45,0.97,0.07,0.25,0.12,0.22
Slovenian,31.53,34.36,14.60,6.52,9.66,1.01,0.64,0. 32,0.30,0.43,0.39,0.12,0.12
Slovak,30.84,37.18,12.99,6.3,8,1.09,1.03,0.39,0.58 ,0.73,0.53,0.15,0.21

Then there is one more point. The Carpathian Ukrainians are very similar to the northern Hungarians, Croats and Slovaks. At the same time, all of the above populations are extremely different from those samples of autochthons (Illyrians and Celts) who lived in Croatia, Hungary, the Czech Republic, etc. Of course, these samples are still few in number. But if the Celts and Illyrians really looked like the Spaniards / Italians / French, then this means that the above Slavic peoples absorbed little of the pre-Slavic substrate, that is, they formed autosomally and anthropologically somewhere on the territory of Galicia and their ancestors migrated from there, spreading the Prague culture ... Otherwise, there would be a sharp autosomal gradient from Prykarpatsya to Croatia, etc. And this gradient is very weak, in contrast to the gradient from the Carpathians to Volyn.

[Jana]

But Carpatho-Ruthenians have well known Vlach/Romanian/Moldovan admixture.

[smd555]

But Carpatho-Ruthenians have well known Vlach/Romanian/Moldovan admixture.

What about Slovaks, South Poles and Slovenians?

[Figaro]

Yeah they are. But Russians living near Belarus are similarly Baltic admixed ofc.



Jews IMO, as far as I remember it's one of several typical Jewish mtdnas.

I’ve considered the latter point, but I know some insist N1b1 aren’t really Jewish, but late Neolithic or something. I don’t know. In addition, my mother’s X chromosome on 23andme is painted exclusively as Eastern European.

Note: All that does not rule anything out, just adding some anecdotal stuff.

[Aren]

Considering the deep relationship between Baltic and Slavic I'm anticipating proto-Slavs to be very close to proto-Balts. I can't see proto-Balts starting off as an Ukrainian-like population but proto-Slavs being Latvian-like originally does sound rather probable. Early Medieval Slavs = proto-Slavs(Baltic-like) + Carpathian Celto-Roman?

[Jana]

Considering the deep relationship between Baltic and Slavic I'm anticipating proto-Slavs to be very close to proto-Balts. I can't see proto-Balts starting off as an Ukrainian-like population but proto-Slavs being Latvian-like originally does sound rather probable. Early Medieval Slavs = proto-Slavs(Baltic-like) + Carpinthian Celto-Roman?

Latvians are part Finnic, so that is not likely. Too extreme. Lithuanians, yes.
It's possible early Slavs formed as more southern population after absorbing Celtic like I2-din carriers, while Balts absorbed N1c input.
Even though I don't see much N1c like au input in Balts, there is lot of such hg but au doesn't seem that present.

If we even knew how did N1c au look like. I don't, but I imagine it as sth super northeastern with siberian (and Balts have little to none siberian in au)

[Aren]

Latvians are part Finnic, so that is not likely. Too extreme. Lithuanians, yes.
It's possible early Slavs formed as more southern population after absorbing Celtic like I2-din carriers, while Balts absorbed N1c input.
Even though I don't see much N1c like au input in Balts, there is lot of such hg but au doesn't seem that present.

If we even knew how did N1c au look like. I don't, but I imagine it as sth super northeastern with siberian (and Balts have little to none siberian in au)

Early Finnics, as the IA Tarand grave genomes were basically assimilated Balts anyways with very little actual Uralic admixture so whatever mixing that has happend between Latvians and Estonians it didn't change much. However I do suspect that Lithuanians have some significant Polish ancestry. So IMO Latvians are closer to proto-Balts, not that it matters though as Latvians and Lithuanians are basically the same population autosomally speaking.

[Jana]

Early Finnics, as the IA Tarand grave genomes were basically assimilated Balts anyways with very little actual Uralic admixture so whatever mixing that has happend between Latvians and Estonians it didn't change much. However I do suspect that Lithuanians have some significant Polish ancestry. So IMO Latvians are closer to proto-Balts, not that it matters though as Latvians and Lithuanians are basically the same population autosomally speaking.

Latvians are extremely drifted on K13. Sandis who is Latvian said Lithuanians are purer Balts than Latvians are.
Proto Slavs being Latvian like sounds rather bizzare and I don't see how can such extremely northern population originate from earliest Slavic region which is much more to the south than Latvia.

Even if they were Lithuanian like like Token said wuold be suprising but maybe it's Polish input in Lithuanians that cancels their later N1c like input so they can resemble proto Slavs.

Lithuanians and Belarusians are only two entirely Balto-Slavic populations preserved today. Speaking about Poles, it's not like extreme NE Poles living near Lithuania don't have lot of Baltic ancestry.
Baltic tribes region was much larger than today. Slavs assimilated more Balts than the opposite by far.

[Aren]

Latvians are extremely drifted on K13. Sandis who is Latvian said Lithuanians are purer Balts than Latvians are.
Proto Slavs being Latvian like sounds rather bizzare and I don't see how can such extremely northern population originate from earliest Slavic region which is much more to the south than Latvia.

Even if they were Lithuanian like like Token said wuold be suprising but maybe it's Polish input in Lithuanians that cancels their later N1c like input so they can resemble proto Slavs.

Lithuanians and Belarusians are only two entirely Balto-Slavic populations preserved today. Speaking about Poles, it's not like extreme NE Poles living near Lithuania don't have lot of Baltic ancestry.
Baltic tribes region was much larger than today. Slavs assimilated more Balts than the opposite by far.
It doesn't sound bizarre at all. Consider the Lithuanian_BA(dated to 1000-400 BC) samples who were very northern, more northern than modern day Lithuanians/Latvians and had the Balto-Slavic drift(no question some kind of early Baltic speakers), proto-Slavs originated somewhere near probably in Belarus in a population that couldn't have been much more southern than that so would mean something like modern day Latvians.
Not sure how important K13 is in all of this. Davidski actually made a mistake there. He should not have based the Baltic component on Lithuanians since Latvians are a bit less southern/Anatolian farmer shifted, which creates this absurdly high Baltic percentage that Latvians score. But at the time I don't think he had access to Latvian genomes.

[reboun]

Are proto versions of ethnicities usually more northern than the ethnicities' current DNA? If yes, then why?

[Jana]

It doesn't sound bizarre at all. Consider the Lithuanian_BA(dated to 1000-400 BC) samples who were very northern, more northern than modern day Lithuanians/Latvians and had the Balto-Slavic drift(no question some kind of early Baltic speakers), proto-Slavs originated somewhere near probably in Belarus in a population that couldn't have been much more southern than that so would mean something like modern day Latvians.
Not sure how important K13 is in all of this. Davidski actually made a mistake there. He should not have based the Baltic component on Lithuanians since Latvians are a bit less southern/Anatolian farmer shifted, which creates this absurdly high Baltic percentage that Latvians score. But at the time I don't think he had access to Latvian genomes.

Proto Slavs according to hydronym and toponym research as well as historical records lived southeast from Balts, east of Germanics,, northwest of Iranics.
Only southern part of Belarus (Polesye) has purely Slavic toponyms but it's unclear how could proto Slavs emerge from unhealthy and difficult to live in swamps and there are no records of such old settlement there.
Likely they moved in Polesye later.

Most likely homeland of proto Slavs is NW Ukraine (Volynia) and eastern Poland bordering it. Which doesn't mean Slavs living there today are pure Slavs, but it's rather very unlikely they were Latvian like, population mixed with Livonians, full of N1c and being located much more northern. Doesn't make any sense. Even Lithuanians are a stretch, but that's easier to believe than Latvians because as I said they are fully IE/Balto-Slav population.

And they aren't identical at all genetically.

[Peterski]

any luck with those anceint Polish BAMs I posted in the other thread?

I will check them this weekend. But I have a feeling they are the same as the ones at ENA ???

[vbnetkhio]

I will check them this weekend. But I have a feeling they are the same as the ones at ENA ???

they are much larger.

https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%21AB9sVPAGzZvekAU&id=9FE9F083531F3F5D%21538&cid=9FE9F083531F3F5D
kow_24 - 6,93 MB

http://gigadb.org/dataset/view/id/100310/Sample_sort/taxonomic_id/File_sort/type_id/File_page/10
KO_024 152.53 MB

and there is more than 100 of them, was there this many of them on ENA?

this is the acompanying study
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5965364/

[CommonSense]

Pointless thread. We have more than a dozen Early Slavic samples and they were clearly different from modern or ancient Baltic people.

[Jana]

Pointless thread. We have more than a dozen Early Slavic samples and they were clearly different from modern or ancient Baltic people.

And no proof they are unmixed. None of them comes from Slavic homeland or early Slavic acheological cultures.

[CommonSense]

And no proof they are unmixed. None of them comes from Slavic homeland or early Slavic acheological cultures.

Even in their homeland Slavs were in contact with the Scythians and ethnicities with western roots like the Bastarnae. Unlike Balts who were isolated. It's doubtful that the samples from actual Slavic archeological cultures would be more Baltic-like genetically considering that most of these Medieval samples come from geographical areas that are unlikely to have received any southern immigration since the Neolithic period.

[Dušan]

Pointless thread. We have more than a dozen Early Slavic samples and they were clearly different from modern or ancient Baltic people.

+1

I dont believe that proto-Slavs were similar to Lithuanians.

[Dušan]

No Lithuanians as closest.


Distance to: Sungir6_Early_Medieval_Russian_I2a
3.88665666 Ukrainian
5.89862696 Russian_Southwest
6.27753136 Belarusian_Minsk
6.48076384 Russian_average
6.57832045 Moldova_Ukrainian
6.77232604 Polish
6.98142536 Russian_Smolensk
7.40922398 Ukrainian_Galicia
7.46198365 South_Polish
7.57249629 Ukrainian_Belgorod


Distance to: AV1_Hungary_Avar_1361_ybp
2.51037846 Ukrainian_Galicia
3.35052235 South_Polish
4.34316705 Moldova_Ukrainian
4.45064040 Slovak
4.99791957 Ukrainian_Carpathian
5.54849529 Sorb_Lusatia
5.95072265 Czech
6.49505196 Hungarian_Northern
6.71764095 Ukrainian
7.25524638 Polish


Distance to: medieval_Lusatian_Serb
6.02376128 Russian_Smolensk
6.31556807 Belarusian_Minsk
6.48486700 Ukrainian
6.61873855 Ukrainian_Belgorod
6.74657691 Russian_average
6.87355803 Polish
7.03862202 Russian_Southwest
8.56342805 Russian_Kargopol
8.69407269 Belorussian
9.05689240 Polish_Masuria


Distance to: Ukraine_Chernigov_VikingAge_VK542
5.28493141 Moldova_Ukrainian
6.07647102 Ukrainian
6.58855068 Russian_Southwest
6.91721765 Ukrainian_Belgorod
7.45062413 Ukrainian_Galicia
7.79053272 Ukrainian_Carpathian
9.28551560 South_Polish
9.34743815 Mordovian
9.53179416 Russian_average
9.86623535 Belarusian_Minsk


Distance to: Ukraine_Lutsk_Medieval_VK541
4.24285281 Moldova_Ukrainian
5.00071995 Ukrainian
6.03512220 Ukrainian_Galicia
6.39425523 Russian_Southwest
6.81389756 Ukrainian_Belgorod
6.83086378 Ukrainian_Carpathian
8.04218254 South_Polish
8.81333081 Russian_average
9.06277000 Russian_Smolensk
9.13135806 Belarusian_Minsk


Distance to: Slavic:VK494_Poland_Sandomierz
5.89527777 Polish_Masuria
6.65292417 Polish
8.16047793 Estonian
8.51847991 Russian_Smolensk
8.81549205 Belorussian
8.93589391 Belarusian_Minsk
9.77050664 South_Polish
9.82676956 Sorb_Lusatia
10.03017448 Lithuanian
10.21623708 Russian_average



Distance to: Viking_Russia_Gnezdovo_VK272
5.34289248 Ukrainian
5.41984317 Moldova_Ukrainian
6.57508935 Russian_Southwest
6.71432796 Ukrainian_Galicia
6.80124989 South_Polish
7.41487694 Polish
7.84473072 Sorb_Lusatia
7.98725860 Russian_Smolensk
7.99545496 Ukrainian_Belgorod
8.06943616 Ukrainian_Carpathian



Distance to: Viking_Poland_Cedynia_VK212
3.71463323 Russian_Smolensk
4.39064915 Belarusian_Minsk
4.65089239 Polish
4.74334270 Belorussian
5.79243472 Russian_average
6.12176445 Lithuanian
6.16771433 Polish_Masuria
6.39271460 Estonian
6.74330779 Russian_Southwest
6.90468681 Ukrainian

[smd555]

I would like to touch a little on the physical anthropology of the East Slavic tribes, especially from the territory of Ukraine. As you know, representatives of the Prague-Korczak culture practiced cremation, so nothing is known about their physical type. Anthropological materials appear mainly only from the beginning of the 11th century and in many territories they are very few. But there is one characteristic feature: most of the local groups of the Eastern Slavs do not show anthropological similarity with the earlier population of the territory of Ukraine, including representatives of the Chernyakhov culture - the Goths, Sarmatians, Thracians, etc.
At the moment, in brief what we have anthropological picture of the East Slavic tribes (concerns mainly the southern area). At the same time, I will express my personal vision of their genesis:



1. Volhynians. Occupies approximately the northwestern part of the territory of Ukraine, and also as one of the components go to the south. Initially, hypermorphic dolichocranial broad-faced with a sharp profile of the face and a sharply protruding nose. The orbits are medium or rather low. In terms of hypermorphism, they are not inferior to the most massive Baltic tribes. Most of all they are similar to the Baltic tribes Yatvingians and Latgalians. Anthropological genesis is unknown. Among Chernyakhov's episodes, they do not come across, and Volhynia in Chernyakhov's times was occupied by the Vel'barsk culture.

2. Drevlyans. Right-bank Ukrainian Polesie to the east of Volhynia and possibly to the south. Periodically, in the form of separate series, an anthropotype similar to them is found on the Left Bank, in Branesti (Moldova) and Galicia as one of the components. Hypermorphic, mesocranial, high-headed, broad-faced type. In terms of massiveness, they are also not inferior to the most massive Baltic and Finnish tribes. The orbits are low, the nose is rather narrow, the profiling of the face is above average. They remotely resemble a Chud, but they do not find direct analogies with anyone.

3. White Croats. South-Western Ukraine. Little researched - but there are dominated by midface mesocranial types. Most likely, in the future, when researching new series, the picture will be approximately the same. Analogies are found among the individual medieval series of Czechs and Croats. A characteristic feature (as well as of the current Carpathian population of Ukrainians) is rather high orbits, a narrow nose, and a rather high face. The presence of components similar to other East Slavic tribes is also possible.

4. Tivertsis. By Tivertsis I mean the East Slavic population of the middle and lower Dniester basin, and also the Prut-Dniester interfluve. For a long time, their only series was the Braneshty burial ground, through which they were brought closer to the Drevlyans. Recently, a few more episodes from the Dniester region have appeared. They are mediocre faces. Most likely they will be more like white Croats.

5. Ulychis. By Ulychis, I mean the East Slavic population of the Southern Bug basin. They have not yet been studied anthropologically.

6. Siveryany / Radimichi / Dregovichi / Smolensk Krivichi (north-eastern Ukraine, almost territory of Belarus and Russian Smolensk). Typical mesomorphs, most of the craniological parameters are average. Dolichocrania, the width of the face is medium, the profiling of the face is rather large, the orbital and nasal markers are medium. Parameters may vary within different series. Women's series from the territory of Ukraine are mesocranial.

7. Polyans (Middle Dnieper near Kyiv). The anthropological picture is rather mixed, but mesocranial forms predominate. The orbits are often low, the face is of medium width (but there is a scatter), the nose is rather wide. Most likely, the charts of the local groups of the earlier Chernyakhiv populations were reflected in Polyans or in their parts.

8.Vyatichs (South-western and partically central Russia). The most narrow-faced. Probably have strong Baltic or Finno-Ugric admixture.

9. Pskov, Tver, Yaroslavl Krivichs, Novgorod Slovenians (Central and Western Russia). Mixed population, poorly studied. Mesomorphic types prevail.

[vbnetkhio]

Even if all Slavs can be modelled as a mix of Lithuanians, and some logical pre-Slavic reference, there are 2 problematic populations:

1- Belorusians and Smolensk Russians. They plot between Ukrainians and Balts. How else to explain them, if not as a mix of Ukrainian like proto-Slavs, and a previous Baltic population?

2- Ukrainians themselves- if the population of Ukraine was on average Lithuanian-like during Korchak (the 6/7th century) what would be the massive migration that pulled them south?
We have 2 samples of Kievan Rus nobility from Ukraine from the 11/12th century, and they are already like modern Ukrainians.

also, the Ukrainian-like medieval samples from Russia are a problem. We would have to assume that those weren't typical Slavic locals of the time, but some atypical immigrants who were by chance burried here. And there are already 3 or 4 of such samples,I believe. What are the odds?

[Jana]

Let's return to the beginning.

I didn't ask were proto Slavs Lithuanian like (that's what Token suggested because some samples might be like that - we'll see), I asked why in modern modeling of south Slavs they prefer:

Minsk Belarusians
Belgorod Ukrainians

Both are more northern than generic Ukrainians.

Just a random coincidence or something else?

[vbnetkhio]

in k13, modern-day northern Ukrainians range from 40-50% Baltic, 45% on average.
Those with 50% Baltic pass as Balts, but they are still normal Ukrainians, just from the northern edge of the spectrum.

The Krakauer Berg samples also have such a range:

KRA011,29.56,50.68,8.38,2.39,2.54,1.03,1.30,0.14,0 ,1.40,1.27,1.10,0.21
KRA001,25.47,47.56,12.36,7.54,1.32,0,2.43,0.52,0.0 1,1.20,0.71,0.61,0.27
KRA003,36.22,42.47,9.53,1.80,2.24,1.07,0.38,0.11,1 .99,0.77,1.59,1.57,0.25

Maybe the "Lithuanian-like" Korchak sample will be like this. (like KRA011)

[vbnetkhio]

Let's return to the beginning.

I didn't ask were proto Slavs Lithuanian like (that's what Token suggested because some samples might be like that - we'll see), I asked why in modern modeling of south Slavs they prefer:

Minsk Belarusians
Belgorod Ukrainians

Both are more northern than generic Ukrainians.

Just a random coincidence or something else?

When it comes to modelling, those are very close to Ukrainians. They are a couple percent more Baltic than Ukrainians, so the algorithm will take a couple percent more of those southern Roman samples for balance, and that's it.
Using Ukrainians as a proxy makes sense because Kiev and Korchak cultures were there, and because all the proto Slavic sampels are in the modern Ukrainian range except maybe that one Czech.

And you'll still get very low distances with Ukrainians. Even Bronze age Balts would probably give very low distances with the right samples on the other side, you just need something highly Balto-Slavic.

[MoroLP]

I would like to touch a little on the physical anthropology of the East Slavic tribes, especially from the territory of Ukraine. As you know, representatives of the Prague-Korczak culture practiced cremation, so nothing is known about their physical type. Anthropological materials appear mainly only from the beginning of the 11th century and in many territories they are very few... At the moment, in brief what we have anthropological picture of the East Slavic tribes (concerns mainly the southern area).

What anthropological studies are you citing or using as reference? S. P. Segeda's?

[Jana]

When it comes to modelling, those are very close to Ukrainians. They are a couple percent more Baltic than Ukrainians, so the algorithm will take a couple percent more of those southern Roman samples for balance, and that's it.
Using Ukrainians as a proxy makes sense because Kiev and Korchak cultures were there, and because all the proto Slavic sampels are in the modern Ukrainian range except maybe that one Czech.

And you'll still get very low distances with Ukrainians. Even Bronze age Balts would probably give very low distances with the right samples on the other side, you just need something highly Balto-Slavic.

I see. :thumbsup:

[Sandis]

8.Vyatichs (South-western and partically central Russia). The most narrow-faced. Probably have strong Baltic or Finno-Ugric admixture.

9. Pskov, Tver, Yaroslavl Krivichs, Novgorod Slovenians (Central and Western Russia). Mixed population, poorly studied. Mesomorphic types prevail.

Vyatichs without doubt were Slavicized Balts with some Finnic admixture because Balts were neighbours of Volga Finns.
I wrote about them earlier.

Krivichs also were Slavicized Balts to a large extent.

[Lucas]

in k13, modern-day northern Ukrainians range from 40-50% Baltic, 45% on average.
Those with 50% Baltic pass as Balts, but they are still normal Ukrainians, just from the northern edge of the spectrum.

The Krakauer Berg samples also have such a range:


Maybe the "Lithuanian-like" Korchak sample will be like this. (like KRA011)

I added all in g25 http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25ancient-scaled.htm
In official sheet there are still those three.

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011
0.02177898 Belarusian
0.02603248 Russian_Smolensk
0.02738113 Lithuanian_PA
0.02942821 Lithuanian_VZ
0.02946380 Russian_Voronez

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010
0.02292795 Russian_Smolensk
0.02447118 Belarusian
0.02457952 Polish
0.02591821 Ukrainian
0.02673608 Russian_Voronez

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA003
0.04047534 Slovakian
0.04219859 Cossack_Kuban
0.04333388 Lithuanian_PA
0.04336281 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.04392356 Polish

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA002
0.02169800 Polish
0.02385593 Ukrainian
0.02446492 Slovakian
0.02726025 Russian_Orel
0.02741363 Sorb_Niederlausitz

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA001
0.02972696 Lithuanian_PA
0.02995308 Lithuanian_VA
0.03220180 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03277527 Ukrainian
0.03317714 Polish

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:ERR4300362
0.02989276 Slovakian
0.03064470 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03075396 Polish
0.03339546 Ukrainian
0.03683906 Ukrainian_B

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:ERR4300349
0.03147216 Russian_Smolensk
0.03181755 Lithuanian_VA
0.03248723 Belarusian
0.03280832 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03449513 Russian_Voronez

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:ERR4300342
0.02302995 Russian_Smolensk
0.02482174 Russian_Voronez
0.02495271 Ukrainian
0.02532663 Belarusian
0.02543688 Ukrainian_B

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:ERR4300339
0.03119225 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03199675 Polish
0.03588284 Ukrainian
0.03869555 Belarusian
0.03905110 Russian_Orel

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:ERR4300330
0.02567939 Lithuanian_PA
0.02591797 Lithuanian_VA
0.03141556 Belarusian
0.03141592 Lithuanian_RA
0.03477541 Lithuanian_SZ





Distance to: Lukasz_scaled
0.02485183 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011
0.02908035 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:ERR4300342
0.02968882 VK2020_POL_Cedynia_VA:VK212
0.03004036 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010
0.03284812 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:ERR4300349
0.03423462 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK287
0.03466184 VK2020_POL_Bodzia_VA:VK157
0.03500471 RUS_Sunghir_MA:Sunghir6
0.03567860 VK2020_RUS_Kurevanikha_VA:VK160
0.03596510 VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA:VK139
0.03647485 HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1
0.03679050 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK473
0.03686176 HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2
0.03726107 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK53
0.03763968 KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro:DA29
0.03768077 VK2020_UKR_Chernigov_VA:VK542
0.03931892 VK2020_POL_Sandomierz_VA:VK494
0.03963861 VK2020_UKR_Lutsk_MA:VK541
0.03970759 VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA:VK309
0.04179102 VK2020_RUS_Gnezdovo_VA:VK272
0.04253020 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_VA:VK340
0.04317533 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK453
0.04372356 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:ERR4300330
0.04430132 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA002
0.04483316 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK438


Target: Lukasz_scaled
Distance: 1.8212% / 0.01821183 | ADC: 0.5x
46.6 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011
17.8 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:ERR4300342
13.0 VK2020_UKR_Chernigov_VA:VK542
10.0 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:ERR4300349
7.2 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK287
5.4 VK2020_POL_Cedynia_VA:VK212

[Lucas]

So medieval Poles were like me I guess:)

[Jana]

so what is the conclusion?

[Lucas]

so what is the conclusion?

If still in XIV century they lived Slavs in east-central Germany with so NE shift, so I guess early Slavs were northern then actual UKR average. Something like Lithuanian-Belarussian mix. Not more northern because they would be just like Balts...

[Leto]

How pure are they supposed to be? It's definitely pointless IMO. People in Eastern Europe in 1 AD may have been one thing, people in 500 AD another thing and the Kievan Rus in 1000 AD something else.

Anyway, there are still plenty of people out there who are R1a with high Baltic, light hair and eyes ;)

[Lucas]

How pure are they supposed to be? It's definitely pointless IMO. People in Eastern Europe in 1 AD may have been one thing, people in 500 AD another thing and the Kievan Rus in 1000 AD something else.

Anyway, there are still plenty of people out there who are R1a with high Baltic, light hair and eyes ;)

The point is that considering mixing which was certainly in progress in this time they are still so NE.
It tells us very simple truth. In time of migration they were even more NE. Certainly not the opposite (who would bring Baltic -like genes after, Germans?)

[Jana]

If still in XIV century they lived Slavs in east-central Germany with so NE shift, so I guess early Slavs were northern then actual UKR average. Something like Lithuanian-Belarussian mix. Not more northern because they would be just like Balts...

This makes sense to me.

[Token]

There is nothing crazy about Proto-Slavs being Lithuanian-like when even some of the Krakauer samples from Deutschland - in the western end of the Slavic expansion - are closest to Lithuanians, as shown by Lucas.

[Leto]

The point is that considering mixing which was certainly in progress in this time they are still so NE.
It tells us very simple truth. In time of migration they were even more NE. Certainly not the opposite (who would bring Baltic -like genes after, Germans?)
Which period are you talking about? Before there was any Slavic state? And what did they mix with?

[vbnetkhio]

If still in XIV century they lived Slavs in east-central Germany with so NE shift, so I guess early Slavs were northern then actual UKR average. Something like Lithuanian-Belarussian mix. Not more northern because they would be just like Balts...

why assume they are mixed?
Modern Sorbs are still more than 40% Baltic (in k13) after all this time.
The Krakauer Berg sampels could've still been pretty much pure proto-Slavs.

[Lucas]

Which period are you talking about? Before there was any Slavic state? And what did they mix with?

This region from those samples were taken was under Gerrman rule since X century or even earlier. It is not Polabia but Sorabia.

https://i.postimg.cc/F9ZTLyrZ/Krakauer-Berg.png

[CommonSense]

There is nothing crazy about Proto-Slavs being Lithuanian-like when even some of the Krakauer samples from Deutschland - in the western end of the Slavic expansion - are closest to Lithuanians, as shown by Lucas.

Can you post those samples?

[Lucas]

why assume they are mixed?
Modern Sorbs are still more than 40% Baltic (in k13) after all this time.
The Krakauer Berg sampels could've still been pretty much pure proto-Slavs.

Some of their Y-DNa isn't typically proto-Slav...

[J. Ketch]

I don't know much about it but Early Slavs being more Northern (similar to Northernmost Slavs today) always seemed intuitively likely to me, rather than a more intermediary group. The great momentum of the migration era was Southward and Westward, and the Balto-Slavic split means the proto-Slavs or pre-proto-Slavs were probably Baltic-like at some point.

[Jana]

This region from those samples were taken was under Gerrman rule since X century or even earlier. It is not Polabia but Sorabia.

https://i.postimg.cc/F9ZTLyrZ/Krakauer-Berg.png

^^^^are these possibly white Serb samples?

[Lucas]

Can you post those samples?

Target: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004
Distance: 2.2038% / 0.02203772
43.4 Latvian
43.2 Lithuanian_VA
5.4 Spanish_Soria
4.6 Sardinian
1.8 Basque_Spanish
1.0 Lithuanian_SZ
0.4 Igbo
0.2 Mbuti

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004
0.02567939 Lithuanian_PA
0.02591797 Lithuanian_VA
0.03141556 Belarusian
0.03141592 Lithuanian_RA
0.03477541 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03484183 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03512368 Russian_Voronez
0.03546720 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03547262 Polish
0.03613134 Ukrainian
0.03670025 Estonian
0.03697637 Russian_Orel
0.03736224 Latvian
0.03757827 Russian_Smolensk
0.03797060 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03846733 Russian_Kursk
0.03896748 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04036670 Russian_Tver
0.04391670 Ukrainian_B

[Leto]

Those E1b1b and J2b are thought to have been Slavs? But the 10th century is no longer the "proto-Slavic" period, is it?

[Lucas]

Those E1b1b and J2b are thought to have been Slavs? But the 10th century is no longer the "proto-Slavic" period, is it?

yes

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010
0.02292795 Russian_Smolensk
0.02447118 Belarusian
0.02457952 Polish
0.02591821 Ukrainian
0.02673608 Russian_Voronez

Target: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010
Distance: 1.6892% / 0.01689196
55.8 Lithuanian_PZ
17.0 German_East
16.6 Macedonian ?
4.4 Russian_Smolensk
3.2 French_Seine-Maritime
1.6 Gupta
0.6 Mlabri
0.4 Shetlandic
0.2 Biaka
0.2 Papuan




Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA005
0.03119225 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03199675 Polish
0.03588284 Ukrainian
0.03869555 Belarusian
0.03905110 Russian_Orel

Target: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA005
Distance: 2.2116% / 0.02211584
43.0 Sorb_Niederlausitz
32.4 Lithuanian_VZ
18.4 English_Cornwall
3.4 Lithuanian_PZ
1.6 Koinanbe
1.2 Cameroon_Bakoko

[CommonSense]

Okay, I found the samples on G25. Why do you suppose they're so different compared to other medieval Slavic samples?

[Lucas]

Okay, I found the samples on G25. Why do you suppose they're so different compared to other medieval Slavic samples?

If you ask me, they aren't atypical. They are very typical. Most samples which we have so far ("Slavic vikings" from Denmark and Gotland, Av2 from Panonia, Russian Sunghir medieval, Euro Golden Horde sample) are similar.

Generally all what is here

Distance to: Lukasz_scaled
0.02485183 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011
0.02908035 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA006
0.02968882 VK2020_POL_Cedynia_VA:VK212
0.03004036 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010
0.03284812 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA007
0.03423462 VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK287
0.03466184 VK2020_POL_Bodzia_VA:VK157
0.03500471 RUS_Sunghir_MA:Sunghir6
0.03567860 VK2020_RUS_Kurevanikha_VA:VK160
0.03596510 VK2020_DNK_Funen_VA:VK139
0.03647485 HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1
0.03679050 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK473
0.03686176 HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2
0.03726107 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK53
0.03763968 KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro:DA29
0.03768077 VK2020_UKR_Chernigov_VA:VK542
0.03931892 VK2020_POL_Sandomierz_VA:VK494
0.03963861 VK2020_UKR_Lutsk_MA:VK541
0.03970759 VK2020_SWE_Skara_VA:VK309
0.04179102 VK2020_RUS_Gnezdovo_VA:VK272
0.04253020 VK2020_DNK_Jutland_VA:VK340
0.04317533 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK453
0.04372356 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004
0.04430132 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA002
0.04483316 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK438

[vbnetkhio]

^^^^are these possibly white Serb samples?

one of them has a close mtdna match with a Serb:
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H13a1a1e/

however because of their geographical location, this was a different tribe, Neletichi or Koledichi maybe.

[vbnetkhio]

Those E1b1b and J2b are thought to have been Slavs? But the 10th century is no longer the "proto-Slavic" period, is it?

the subclades look local to Germany, or pre-slavic Poland and Czechia

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L540/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/

edit:actually this J-Z1043 has some Eastern European branches as well.
anyway, nothing Balkanic about them.

[vbnetkhio]

Some of their Y-DNa isn't typically proto-Slav...

it seems you are right.

on a population level, they look like Belorussians with a small German shift.

https://i.imgur.com/NHdjMzY.png

specifically Belarusians, not Ukrainians, or Lithuanians.

I think it's because of this early Slavic migration stream:
https://i.imgur.com/XXfsEuc.jpg
it stems from somwehere around Brest ultimately.

The other streams must have been more Ukrainian-like imo.

[Jana]

One question - what happened to Iranic tribes that lived in Ukrainian plains?

[vbnetkhio]

One question - what happened to Iranic tribes that lived in Ukrainian plains?


I think Moldovans, and possibly Crimean Tatars could have ancestry from them.
And modern day steppe Ukrainians are mostly settlers from northern Ukraine and Russia.

[Lucas]

it seems you are right.

on a population level, they look like Belorussians with a small German shift.

specifically Belarusians, not Ukrainians, or Lithuanians.

I think it's because of this early Slavic migration stream:
https://i.imgur.com/XXfsEuc.jpg
it stems from somwehere around Brest ultimately.

The other streams must have been more Ukrainian-like imo.

Fully agree.

[Token]

One question - what happened to Iranic tribes that lived in Ukrainian plains?

A lot of them seems to have been absorbed by the Goths after they settled around the Black Sea, hence the East Asian admixture in many of the released Gothic samples and the importance of horse husbandry in their lifestyle. I doubt they had any meaningful impact in the gene-pool of the Proto-Slavs, otherwise Asian admixture would be widespread among modern-day Slavs.

[Dušan]

https://i.imgur.com/2XDn7TU.png

https://i.imgur.com/kCsktg1.png

[Leto]

A lot of them seems to have been absorbed by the Goths after they settled around the Black Sea, hence the East Asian admixture in many of the released Gothic samples and the importance of horse husbandry in their lifestyle. I doubt they had any meaningful impact in the gene-pool of the Proto-Slavs, otherwise Asian admixture would be widespread among modern-day Slavs.
Minor East Eurasian is quite common in modern Slavs. In fact without it results look somehow incomplete to me.

[Token]

Minor East Eurasian is quite common in modern Slavs. In fact without it results look somehow incomplete to me.

Maybe in Gedmatch calculators, where Iberians can score 2% Siberian.

[Leto]

the subclades look local to Germany, or pre-slavic Poland and Czechia

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L540/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/

edit:actually this J-Z1043 has some Eastern European branches as well.
anyway, nothing Balkanic about them.
Those two haplogroups are pretty damn Southern in my book. Not sure how they can be ancient German or Polish.

[Leto]

Maybe in Gedmatch calculators, where Iberians can score 2% Siberian.
In Iberians it'd be a rare oddity, nothing that can be described as (statistically) "common".
Most of us here are for Gedmatch, so keep your anti-Ged snobbery to yourself please.

[Token]

In Iberians it'd be a rare oddity, nothing that can be described as (statistically) "common".
Most of us here are for Gedmatch, so keep your anti-Ged snobbery to yourself please.
Gedmatch results are not a proof of anything, nothing to do with snobbery.

[Jana]

Those two haplogroups are pretty damn Southern in my book. Not sure how they can be ancient German or Polish.

Yes, that's why mesolithic EHG from Karelia was J1. People need to learn ancient people weren't some factory robots with 1 or 2 haplogroups, they had various haplogroups and origin of hg is determined by deep subclade.
There are tons of J and E with northern Euro subclades and R and I subclades with strictly southern European distiribution.

[Dick]

Those two haplogroups are pretty damn Southern in my book. Not sure how they can be ancient German or Polish.

Why? They were non existent in Europe before Indo-European migrants. Even the Vasojevic(Mortimer subclade) clan’s closet match is a Polack and not a Balkanite. People moved around all the time especially once horses were introduced to Europe as a means of travel and not barbecue. I2-Din actually came from Western Europe. As Ayetooey once told me, Maybe they were an enslaved tribe of eastern celts, who were slavicised and were sent into the balkans as a suicide mission.

[Leto]

On the Internet we still talk about White and Woggistani haplogroups... :coffee:

I don't know guys, in my world J, E, G and some others are not primarily associated with Northern peoples. Can't help myself. Otherwise Norway, Ireland, Finland, Lithuania, Poland and so on would be full of Js and Es.

[MoroLP]

one of them has a close mtdna match with a Serb:
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H13a1a1e/

however because of their geographical location, this was a different tribe, Neletichi or Koledichi maybe.

Actually it was part of the same tribe: In 839, the Saxons fought "the Sorabos, called Colodici" at Kesigesburch and won the battle, managing to kill their king Cimusclo (or "Czimislav"), with Kesigesburch and eleven forts being captured.[34][39] The Sorbs were forced to pay tribute and forfeited territory to the Franks.[39] The Sorbian tribe of Colodici was furthermore mentioned in 973 (Coledizi pagus, Cholidici), in 975 (Colidiki), and 1015 (Colidici locus).[40] Besides Colodici other tribes which scholars consider part of the narrow Sorbian alliance were Daleminzi-Glomacze, Chudzicy, Nieletycy, Nudzice, Susłowie, Żytyce among others.[5]

Kesigesburch is located at today's Cösitz (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%B6sitz) which is a district of town Zörbig (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z%C3%B6rbig) which etymologically derives from the ethnonym of the Sorbs. The both Peißen of Bernburg (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernburg_(Saale)) and especially Landsberg (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landsberg_(Saalekreis)) are close to it.

The possible genetic connection via mtDNA does make sense as well as a possible absence of Y-DNA. All those Y-DNA and mtDNA should be thoroughly Y-SNP and Y-STR compared with contemporary Sorbian and Serbian samples.


https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L540/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1043/

KRA005 as E-L540 > A6295 has a match in one Serb sample from Poreklo as well as E-L540 seemingly makes the cluster of haplogroup E-V13 among contemporary Sorbs.

KRA010 as J-Z1043 > J-BY38004 has a match YF63458SRB [RS-VO].

KRA006 via H5a1a (https://yfull.com/mtree/H5a1a/), KRA007 via U5b1e1 (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/U5b1e1/), KRA008 via T1a10 (https://yfull.com/mtree/T1a10/), KRA010 via H26a1 (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/H26a1/) and KRA011 via J1c4 (https://www.yfull.com/mtree/J1c4/) have matches in Southeastern Europe including Serbia.

[smd555]

What anthropological studies are you citing or using as reference? S. P. Segeda's?

Segeda specializes in odontology. As for paleoanthropology - from old works the most generalizing book is Alekseeva "East Slavs. Paleoanthropology end ethnical history". After the publication of this book, many works of modern anthropologists appeared. Modern Ukrainian anthropologists who study medieval Slavic series are mainly three:

https://rambler.academia.edu/YuriyDolzhenko

https://iananu-kiev.academia.edu/TetyanaRudych

https://rambler.academia.edu/InnaPotekhina

[smd555]

Vyatichs without doubt were Slavicized Balts with some Finnic admixture because Balts were neighbours of Volga Finns.
I wrote about them earlier.

Krivichs also were Slavicized Balts to a large extent.

The problem for anthropologists is that it is not always possible to distinguish where the anthropological similarity between two ethnic groups is the result of assimilation - and where - the original similarity. If we take the Balts and the Eastern Slavs, then both of them have similar types. If, for example, to take the territory of Lithuania, then massive broad-faced forms were among the Baltic tribes of the Yatvingians, Latgalians and Aukstaits - and among the Slavic Volynians and Drevlyans. Mesomorphic dolichocranic middle-face types were characteristic of the Baltic Samogitians, Semigallians and Selonians - and for the Slavic Siveryans, Radimichs, Dregovichs and part of the Krivichs. The leptomorphic narrow-faced dolichocranic type was in the Baltic Curonians - and the Slavic Vyatichi.
On the territory of Belarus, the Slavs mainly came from the east, assimilating the local Balts. At the same time, the local Balts (the culture of the Eastern Lithuanian mounds) were massive, broad-faced and differed noticeably from the middle-faced or narrow-faced Dregovichi and Polotsk Krivichi who came to their territory. At the same time, these same Belarusian massive Balts are very similar to the Volynians from the territory of Ukraine (although there is no evidence that the Volynians arose on the basis of the assimilated Balts). Therefore, it is not clear where is the result of assimilation - and where is simply the initial presence of a massive proto-Europoid component in both populations. Another point, again, concerns the territory of Lithuania (I don’t know about Latvia and Estonia) - at the beginning of our era, mesomorphic and lepromorphic forms dominated in Lithuania. Protomorphic broad-faced were distributed mainly in southeastern Lithuania, western Belarus and northeastern Poland, where the hatched pottery culture was widespread. Later, by the beginning of the second millennium, massive types began to displace all the others and already occupied most of Lithuania.

[smd555]

One question - what happened to Iranic tribes that lived in Ukrainian plains?

If we want to find traces of Iranian tribes in the modern population - we have to look for West Asian component of K-13.

[Jana]

If we want to find traces of Iranian tribes in the modern population - we have to look for West Asian component of K-13.

I have elevated west Asian on K13 while most south Slavs don't, they have higher East Med, in my case is the opposite. So I wonder where is it from :)

[Token]

A lot of them seems to have been absorbed by the Goths after they settled around the Black Sea, hence the East Asian admixture in many of the released Gothic samples and the importance of horse husbandry in their lifestyle. I doubt they had any meaningful impact in the gene-pool of the Proto-Slavs, otherwise Asian admixture would be widespread among modern-day Slavs.

Lets try something using the Human Origins database. We will test f(Scottish, X, Han; Chimp), where X is a Balkan or Eastern European population. If Z<-3, then X has more East Asian affinity than Scottish does. If not, then X and Scottish don't differ in East Asian affinity. The analysis will be comparing 600k snps (K13 compares around 150k, so f4 will have 4x more firepower than K13). Scottish was chosen for this comparison because Scots obviously don't have any East Asian ancestry, so we will not run the risk of East Asian admixture being masked by the reference population.


pop1 pop2 pop3 pop4 est se z p
1 Scottish Russian Han Chimp.REF -0.000799 0.000159 -5.01 0.000000536
2 Scottish Croatian Han Chimp.REF 0.000165 0.000186 0.886 0.376
3 Scottish Ukrainian Han Chimp.REF -0.000181 0.000179 -1.01 0.313
4 Scottish Czech_EarlySlav Han Chimp.REF -0.00290 0.00138 -2.10 0.0359
5 Scottish Bulgarian Han Chimp.REF 0.000334 0.000187 1.79 0.0738
6 Scottish Romanian Han Chimp.REF 0.000206 0.000192 1.08 0.282
7 Scottish Czech Han Chimp.REF 0.0000410 0.000181 0.226 0.821
8 Scottish Albanian Han Chimp.REF 0.000392 0.000210 1.87 0.0619

As expected only Russians show East Asian affinity. None of the Balkan populations show signs of East Asian admixture.

Same stats with French instead of Scottish. Here we see some East Asian affinity in Ukrainians, but no statistically significant East Asian shift for Balkanites and the Slav from Czech. It is possible that the HO Ukrainian samples includes some Russian-admixed individuals.


pop1 pop2 pop3 pop4 est se z p
1 French Russian Han Chimp.REF -0.00107 0.0000635 -16.9 3.58e-64
2 French Croatian Han Chimp.REF -0.000109 0.000106 -1.03 3.03e- 1
3 French Ukrainian Han Chimp.REF -0.000455 0.0000945 -4.81 1.48e- 6
4 French Czech_EarlySlav Han Chimp.REF -0.00317 0.00138 -2.30 2.12e- 2
5 French Bulgarian Han Chimp.REF 0.0000595 0.000107 0.558 5.77e- 1
6 French Romanian Han Chimp.REF -0.0000680 0.000113 -0.600 5.48e- 1
7 French Czech Han Chimp.REF -0.000233 0.0000994 -2.35 1.89e- 2
8 French Albanian Han Chimp.REF 0.000118 0.000136 0.868 3.86e- 1

[Lucas]

Lets try something using the Human Origins database. We will test f(Scottish, X, Han; Chimp), where X is a Balkan or Eastern European population. If Z<-3, then X has more East Asian affinity than Scottish does. If not, then X and Scottish don't differ in East Asian affinity. The analysis will be comparing 600k snps (K13 compares around 150k, so f4 will have 4x more firepower than K13). Scottish was chosen for this comparison because Scots obviously don't have any East Asian ancestry, so we will not run the risk of East Asian admixture being masked by the reference population.


pop1 pop2 pop3 pop4 est se z p
1 Scottish Russian Han Chimp.REF -0.000799 0.000159 -5.01 0.000000536
2 Scottish Croatian Han Chimp.REF 0.000165 0.000186 0.886 0.376
3 Scottish Ukrainian Han Chimp.REF -0.000181 0.000179 -1.01 0.313
4 Scottish Czech_EarlySlav Han Chimp.REF -0.00290 0.00138 -2.10 0.0359
5 Scottish Bulgarian Han Chimp.REF 0.000334 0.000187 1.79 0.0738
6 Scottish Romanian Han Chimp.REF 0.000206 0.000192 1.08 0.282
7 Scottish Czech Han Chimp.REF 0.0000410 0.000181 0.226 0.821
8 Scottish Albanian Han Chimp.REF 0.000392 0.000210 1.87 0.0619

As expected only Russians show East Asian affinity. None of the Balkan populations show signs of East Asian admixture.

Same stats with French instead of Scottish. Here we see some East Asian affinity in Ukrainians, but no statistically significant East Asian shift for Balkanites and the Slav from Czech. It is possible that the HO Ukrainian samples includes some Russian-admixed individuals.


pop1 pop2 pop3 pop4 est se z p
1 French Russian Han Chimp.REF -0.00107 0.0000635 -16.9 3.58e-64
2 French Croatian Han Chimp.REF -0.000109 0.000106 -1.03 3.03e- 1
3 French Ukrainian Han Chimp.REF -0.000455 0.0000945 -4.81 1.48e- 6
4 French Czech_EarlySlav Han Chimp.REF -0.00317 0.00138 -2.30 2.12e- 2
5 French Bulgarian Han Chimp.REF 0.0000595 0.000107 0.558 5.77e- 1
6 French Romanian Han Chimp.REF -0.0000680 0.000113 -0.600 5.48e- 1
7 French Czech Han Chimp.REF -0.000233 0.0000994 -2.35 1.89e- 2
8 French Albanian Han Chimp.REF 0.000118 0.000136 0.868 3.86e- 1
Can you check Poles too? But not Estonian Poles, some other samples if you have.

[Token]

Can you check Poles too? But not Estonian Poles, some other samples if you have.
Zero East Asian affinity.

French Polish Han Chimp 0.000371 0.000372 0.995 0.320
English Polish Han Chimp -0.000252 0.000399 -0.633 0.527

[Roy]

Very intriguing.

I've read about Neuri people (Milograd Culture) being actual Balts but living in what is now Ukraine. Or / and also along Narew river in Poland.

[Sandis]

The problem for anthropologists is that it is not always possible to distinguish where the anthropological similarity between two ethnic groups is the result of assimilation - and where - the original similarity. If we take the Balts and the Eastern Slavs, then both of them have similar types. If, for example, to take the territory of Lithuania, then massive broad-faced forms were among the Baltic tribes of the Yatvingians, Latgalians and Aukstaits - and among the Slavic Volynians and Drevlyans. Mesomorphic dolichocranic middle-face types were characteristic of the Baltic Samogitians, Semigallians and Selonians - and for the Slavic Siveryans, Radimichs, Dregovichs and part of the Krivichs. The leptomorphic narrow-faced dolichocranic type was in the Baltic Curonians - and the Slavic Vyatichi.
On the territory of Belarus, the Slavs mainly came from the east, assimilating the local Balts. At the same time, the local Balts (the culture of the Eastern Lithuanian mounds) were massive, broad-faced and differed noticeably from the middle-faced or narrow-faced Dregovichi and Polotsk Krivichi who came to their territory. At the same time, these same Belarusian massive Balts are very similar to the Volynians from the territory of Ukraine (although there is no evidence that the Volynians arose on the basis of the assimilated Balts). Therefore, it is not clear where is the result of assimilation - and where is simply the initial presence of a massive proto-Europoid component in both populations. Another point, again, concerns the territory of Lithuania (I don’t know about Latvia and Estonia) - at the beginning of our era, mesomorphic and lepromorphic forms dominated in Lithuania. Protomorphic broad-faced were distributed mainly in southeastern Lithuania, western Belarus and northeastern Poland, where the hatched pottery culture was widespread. Later, by the beginning of the second millennium, massive types began to displace all the others and already occupied most of Lithuania.

I am currently studying Lithuanians. Lithuanians have more regional differences than i thought before.
By genetic data the biggest differences are between Northwestern/Northeastern Lithuanians and Southeast Lithuanians. Y-Dna haplogroup distribution:

N.W. Lithuania (N. Žemaitija) : N 49 %, R1a 30 % (M458 3%)
N.E. Lithuania (E. Aukštaitija) : N 49 %, R1a 25 % (M458 11%)
S.E. Lithuania (S. Aukštaitija) : N 29 %, R1a 47 % (M458 13%)

Northern Lithuanians have less hg R1a than Latvians and Estonians, although a large part of Estonian R1a could be of Finno-Ugric origin. Western Livonians have the highest R1a frequency in the Baltic States.
Northern Lithuanians have more hg N than average Latvians and Estonians. Latvians from Latgale and Zemgale have similar amount of hg N.
As we know, in S.E. Lithuania lived Yatvingians. I think that S.W. Lithuanian genetic data should be similar with S.E. Lithuanian. In that publication ancient Sudovian land is lumped together with Central Lithuania.
Although i am not sure if S.E. Lithuania region doesn't include some recent Polish admixture.

In my Lithuanian Basketball players rating thread Eastern Lithuanians (the real Aukštaitians), S.E. Lithuanians (old Yotvingia) and partly Northern Lithuanians (old Samogitia, Semigalia, Selonia) have more broad features.
S.W. Lithuanians (old Dainava), Central Lithuanians and N.W. Lithuanians (old Curonia) have more narrrow features, especially S.W. Lithuanians.

In Latvia the most broader faces still are found in Eastern Latvia generally and the narrowest faces in Northern Curonia and Northern Semigalia.

[Roy]

I am currently studying Lithuanians. Lithuanians have more regional differences than i thought before.
By genetic data the biggest differences are between Northwestern/Northeastern Lithuanians and Southeast Lithuanians. Y-Dna haplogroup distribution:

N.W. Lithuania (N. Žemaitija) : N 49 %, R1a 30 % (M458 3%)
N.E. Lithuania (E. Aukštaitija) : N 49 %, R1a 25 % (M458 11%)
S.E. Lithuania (S. Aukštaitija) : N 29 %, R1a 47 % (M458 13%)

Northern Lithuanians have less hg R1a than Latvians and Estonians, although a large part of Estonian R1a could be of Finno-Ugric origin. Western Livonians have the highest R1a frequency in the Baltic States.
As we know, in S.E. Lithuania lived Yatvingians. I think that S.W. Lithuanian genetic data should be similar with S.E. Lithuanian. In that study ancient Sudovian land is lumped together with Central Lithuania.
Although i am not sure if S.E. Lithuania region doesn't include some recent Polish admixture.

In my Lithuanian Basketball players rating thread Eastern Lithuanians (the real Aukštaitians), S.E. Lithuanians (old Yotvingia) and partly Northern Lithuanians (old Samogitia, Semigalia, Selonia) have more broad features.
S.W. Lithuanians (old Dainava), Central Lithuanians and N.W. Lithuanians (old Curonia) have more narrrow features, especially S.W. Lithuanians.

In Latvia the most broader faces still are found in Eastern Latvia generally and the narrowest faces in Northern Curonia and Northern Semigalia.

Those SE Lithuanian probably do not have a lot of Polish-Polish (lol) input. I assume that because NE Poles, those from Sudovia + Lithuania with which they could have mixed are very Lithuanian-like and far from a Polish average genetically, they also carry a lot of N haplogroup that is otherwise rare among Poles.

[Leto]

Okay, discussing facial breadth and so on is definitely not for me. Don't know why people still care about that pseudoscience.

[Roy]

In Iberians it'd be a rare oddity, nothing that can be described as (statistically) "common".
Most of us here are for Gedmatch, so keep your anti-Ged snobbery to yourself please.

Speaking of gedmatch ... is it possible that the same person (for instance me) can get two quite differing results from two separate samples? I find it quite likely depending on the number of SNPs covered, I get some weird admixtures on gedmatch like SSA (above 0,5%) + Amerindian around 2% on some of these calcs.

[Roy]

How pure are they supposed to be? It's definitely pointless IMO. People in Eastern Europe in 1 AD may have been one thing, people in 500 AD another thing and the Kievan Rus in 1000 AD something else.

Anyway, there are still plenty of people out there who are R1a with high Baltic, light hair and eyes ;)

In 1 AD there were no Slavs yet albeit some semblance of Slavic-like drift & future characteristics could have formed by then. Can we talk about Proto-Slavs so early on? I know that early Slavs are 500+ years later.

[Jaromir]

The Tau Cetians also influenced the the Slavic and Russian peoples. The Tau Cetians added their DNA to the human prototypes that were already established there, creating what is now known as the Slavic peoples. The results were a race of humans who were stocky, barrel-chested, and averaging 5’6’’ to 5’9’’ in height, with a dense bone structure and dark eyes. They were aggressive, and preferred a cold climate. The Tau Cetians are one of the 22 et races
https://www.truthcontrol.com/pictures/tau-cetians

[Jaromir]

The Tau Cetians also influenced the the Slavic and Russian peoples. The Tau Cetians added their DNA to the human prototypes that were already established there, creating what is now known as the Slavic peoples. The results were a race of humans who were stocky, barrel-chested, and averaging 5’6’’ to 5’9’’ in height, with a dense bone structure and dark eyes. They were aggressive, and preferred a cold climate. The Tau Cetians are one of the 22 et races
https://www.truthcontrol.com/pictures/tau-cetians

[Sandis]

I've read about Neuri people (Milograd Culture) being actual Balts but living in what is now Ukraine. Or / and also along Narew river in Poland.

I also read about them. Narew river and Northwestern Ukraine (Volhynia) are in the Baltic hydronyms area:

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/baltic-finnic-mordvin-hydronyms-grunthal.jpg

[Lucas]

I've read about Neuri people (Milograd Culture) being actual Balts but living in what is now Ukraine. Or / and also along Narew river in Poland.

Not only. We have also rivers: Ner and Nurzec.

Interesting if Neretva in Herzegovina has something in common.

[Sandis]

Not only. We have also rivers: Ner and Nurzec.

Interesting if Neretva in Herzegovina has something in common.

In Latvia we have river and place Nereta. Lithuania has river Neris (lv. Nere) and town Neringa (Curonian Spit is called 'nerija' in Lithuanian).

[vbnetkhio]

Not only. We have also rivers: Ner and Nurzec.

Interesting if Neretva in Herzegovina has something in common.

there's also an actual Neretva in Ukraine, in Volhynia.

[vbnetkhio]

We have Moravian samples now:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?310130-NEW!-All-Gedmatch-calculators-on-Vahaduo-ON-LINE&p=7174439&viewfull=1#post7174439

They range from Lithuanian-Like to North Italian-like, plus 3 outliers which didn't leave much influence on the later population (Bulgarian, Moldovan and Scandianvian-like.)

So it seems the group of Slavs which settled here really was Lithuanian-like.

[Dušan]

Mine model with Lithuanians:



Distance to: Dušan
5.72095212 54.20% Lithuanian + 45.80% Italian_Apulia
5.89874040 55.00% Lithuanian + 45.00% Italian_Sicily
5.93822139 53.00% Lithuanian + 47.00% Greek_Cyclades


Target: Dušan
Distance: 5.4978% / 5.49775895
52.8 Lithuanian
27.6 Italian_Lazio
19.6 Greek_Crete

[vbnetkhio]

Mine model with Lithuanians:



Distance to: Dušan
5.72095212 54.20% Lithuanian + 45.80% Italian_Apulia
5.89874040 55.00% Lithuanian + 45.00% Italian_Sicily
5.93822139 53.00% Lithuanian + 47.00% Greek_Cyclades


Target: Dušan
Distance: 5.4978% / 5.49775895
52.8 Lithuanian
27.6 Italian_Lazio
19.6 Greek_Crete


huge distances. this is probably true only for a smaller part of Western Slavs.

[Jana]

huge distances. this is probably true only for a smaller part of Western Slavs.

What about those new pre-Slavic and Slavic samples, available on K13?

[Figaro]

What about those new pre-Slavic and Slavic samples, available on K13?

Ooohhh...pre-Slavs from where? North, or do you mean Paleo-Balkanite in south Slavs?

[Jana]

Ooohhh...pre-Slavs from where? North, or do you mean Paleo-Balkanite in south Slavs?

from Czech Republic?

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?310130-NEW!-All-Gedmatch-calculators-on-Vahaduo-ON-LINE&p=7174439&viewfull=1#post7174439

seems finally some proper early Slav samples are out. But I don't know nothing about them, so if somebody does, make a thread about it or sth :)

[vbnetkhio]

What about those new pre-Slavic and Slavic samples, available on K13?

that's what I meant. They don't change any of the arguments laid out earlier.

[vbnetkhio]

from Czech Republic?

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?310130-NEW!-All-Gedmatch-calculators-on-Vahaduo-ON-LINE&p=7174439&viewfull=1#post7174439

seems finally some proper early Slav samples are out. But I don't know nothing about them, so if somebody does, make a thread about it or sth :)

they are from near the Czech-Slovak-Austrian tri-border.
2 Lithuanian-like samples, one North Italian-like, and a bunch in between, they are similar to the Slovak G25 samples.
also 1 Scandinavian-like, one Bulgarian-like, and one like that but with more Slav admixture, Moldavian-like.

[Token]

We have Moravian samples now:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?310130-NEW!-All-Gedmatch-calculators-on-Vahaduo-ON-LINE&p=7174439&viewfull=1#post7174439

They range from Lithuanian-Like to North Italian-like, plus 3 outliers which didn't leave much influence on the later population (Bulgarian, Moldovan and Scandianvian-like.)

So it seems the group of Slavs which settled here really was Lithuanian-like.

There are more samples coming soon, with more Lithuanian-like individuals.

[vbnetkhio]

There are more samples coming soon, with more Lithuanian-like individuals.

All from Moravia?

[Token]

All from Moravia?

Nope, from all over the Prague-Korchak horizon.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5e/83/75/5e83757813f02974a8c3d2cff1a3ab00.png

[Roy]

What about those new pre-Slavic and Slavic samples, available on K13?

Can you provide their kit numbers?

[XenophobicPrussian]

they are from near the Czech-Slovak-Austrian tri-border.
2 Lithuanian-like samples, one North Italian-like, and a bunch in between, they are similar to the Slovak G25 samples.
also 1 Scandinavian-like, one Bulgarian-like, and one like that but with more Slav admixture, Moldavian-like.
Pretty cool, pretty much shows how the modern Austrian was formed. Only thing that's missing is the Celtic, of which they score too. Do you know the dates of them?

The Bulgarian/Moldavian ones are probably Hungarian Scythians(very southern) mixed with Slavs, maybe even people brought over by groups like the Huns, not likely to be natives+Slavs given BA and Hallstatt genomes from the region.

[vbnetkhio]

here are PCA overviews of all the Medieval Slavic samples we have thus far.

The new Moravian samples plus the Czech Early Slav:
https://i.imgur.com/HyHQOtN.png

Samples from Poland and East Germany. Mostly Belarusian-like pulled towards Germanic samples, and some are deep in the Ukrainian cluster.
https://i.imgur.com/oliCZgm.png

Slavic admixed Viking samples from Denmark, same as above (Belarusian and Ukrainian-like source.)
https://i.imgur.com/CeR2ECn.png

East Slavs (Sunghir and Viking sites from Ukraine and Russia). They completely encompass the modern Ukrainian range.
https://i.imgur.com/8DRKLQb.png

AV1 and 2, same as above:
https://i.imgur.com/g9wgZ2j.png

I think these Ukrainians in G25 are all mainstream Ukrainians (not from the Romanian/Hungarian/Polish admixed regions)

[Jana]

Pretty cool, pretty much shows how the modern Austrian was formed. Only thing that's missing is the Celtic, of which they score too. Do you know the dates of them?

North Italian like samples can be local Celts, I don't see what else could they be.

[Peterski]

North Italian like samples can be local Celts, I don't see what else could they be.

Nah, more likely LIB11 is a Celt mixed with Scythian (?) - like one of Hallstatt Bylany samples* - and LIB3 is a Roman settler woman.

*One of the two Hallstatt Bylany samples is eastern-shifted.

[Peterski]

LIB3 - most likely a Roman settler:

Distances:
0.03282935 Italian_Liguria
0.03287600 Italian_Lombardy
0.03422651 Italian_Piedmont
0.03574889 Italian_Bergamo
0.03706812 French_Corsica
0.03807683 Italian_Tuscany
0.03815278 ITA_Rome_MA
0.03986653 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04014426 Italian_Veneto
0.04078530 Spanish_Menorca
0.04086796 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04131145 Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE
0.04139676 Swiss_Italian
0.04190140 Italian_Marche
(...)

LIB11 - Celt mixed with Scythian (?):
[like one of two Hallstatt Bylany samples]

Distances:
0.03345309 Croatian
0.03521847 Hungarian
0.03652741 Czech
0.03695524 Slovenian
0.03850720 German_East
0.03905881 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03970358 VK2020_UKR_Chernigov_VA
0.04049698 VK2020_UKR_Lutsk_MA
0.04163237 Polish
0.04185553 Bosnian
0.04282839 Slovakian
0.04312049 Austrian
(...)

^^^
LIB11 is a pre-Slavic sample, but looks like it has a lot of "Balto-Slavic-like" type of ancestry. In any case, something North-Eastern.

[vbnetkhio]

The Bulgarian/Moldavian ones are probably Hungarian Scythians(very southern) mixed with Slavs, maybe even people brought over by groups like the Huns, not likely to be natives+Slavs given BA and Hallstatt genomes from the region.

Those are more likely Roman admixed than Pannonian Scythian, they have an East Med/west Asian shift

[GalenStark]

All from Moravia?

So far Y-DNA reported was I-S17250, I-A815, R-Y2608, R-Z92. E-L241. Hopefully alot more will be reported soon.

[Peterski]

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23595-New-Samples-from-Migration-Era-and-Early-Medieval-Moravia&p=766254&viewfull=1#post766254

Target: Migration:LIB11
Distance: 3.3723% / 0.03372313
35.8 Baltic_EST_IA
32.6 DEU_Singen_EIA
13.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
8.8 VK2020_NOR_Mid_IA
3.6 VK2020_NOR_North_IA
3.2 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
1.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
1.0 KEN_Pastoral_IA

[XenophobicPrussian]

LIB3 - most likely a Roman settler:

Distances:
0.03282935 Italian_Liguria
0.03287600 Italian_Lombardy
0.03422651 Italian_Piedmont
0.03574889 Italian_Bergamo
0.03706812 French_Corsica
0.03807683 Italian_Tuscany
0.03815278 ITA_Rome_MA
0.03986653 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04014426 Italian_Veneto
0.04078530 Spanish_Menorca
0.04086796 Spanish_Eivissa
0.04131145 Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE
0.04139676 Swiss_Italian
0.04190140 Italian_Marche
(...)

LIB11 - Celt mixed with Scythian (?):
[like one of two Hallstatt Bylany samples]

Distances:
0.03345309 Croatian
0.03521847 Hungarian
0.03652741 Czech
0.03695524 Slovenian
0.03850720 German_East
0.03905881 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03970358 VK2020_UKR_Chernigov_VA
0.04049698 VK2020_UKR_Lutsk_MA
0.04163237 Polish
0.04185553 Bosnian
0.04282839 Slovakian
0.04312049 Austrian
(...)

^^^
LIB11 is a pre-Slavic sample, but looks like it has a lot of "Balto-Slavic-like" type of ancestry. In any case, something North-Eastern.
Roman settlers in Moravia? Possible, but the Romans didn't even hold parts of northern Austria. They could also be Balkanites brought up by the Huns or other steppe nomadic groups, as pre-Slavic Italian-like genomes are found in the Balkans up to Moldova, although usually more central Italian-like.

[Jana]

LIB3 - most likely a Roman settler:

Nope. There were no Romans in Czech Republic.

[Jana]

Roman settlers in Moravia? Possible, but the Romans didn't even hold parts of northern Austria. They could also be Balkanites brought up by the Huns or other steppe nomadic groups, as pre-Slavic Italian-like genomes are found in the Balkans up to Moldova, although usually more central Italian-like.

It's a nonsense, such type of ancestry is present until southern Poland and west Ukraine and is obviously local in origin, nothing to do with "Romans", "Balkanites" or whatever.

"Balkanites brought up by Huns" lmao. What is next "Arabs brought by Siberians"?

Incredibly stupid and nonsensical theories, no offense.

[Peterski]

Nope. There were no Romans in Czech Republic.

The samples are from Breclav not far from the Roman Empire's Danube border:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C5%99eclav

https://omniatlas.com/maps/europe/260630/

Roman Army's camp discovered in Czech Republic's South Moravian Region:

https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2018/01/roman-army-camp-discovered-in-czech.html

https://i.imgur.com/5cF0YHa.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_fort,_Mu%C5%A1ov

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Mu%C5%A1ov_-_Roman_fortress_-_timbre_house.JPG/1280px-Mu%C5%A1ov_-_Roman_fortress_-_timbre_house.JPG

[XenophobicPrussian]

It's a nonsense, such type of ancestry is present until southern Poland and west Ukraine and is obviously local in origin, nothing to do with "Romans", "Balkanites" or whatever.

"Balkanites brought up by Huns" lmao. What is next "Arabs brought by Siberians"?

Incredibly stupid and nonsensical theories, no offense.
Where are these southern shifted samples in southern Poland and west Ukraine? Show me them. Such type of ancestry being present in modern Poles and Ukrainians is irrelevant. The most southern shifted samples from the region are Iberian-like, with a couple North Italian like in southern Bavaria and Hungary in the Bronze Age that were undoubtably gone into the French-like average by the Iron Age(speaking of Bavaria specifically, Hungary was always a population sink for exotic ancestries, and is included when I refer to "Balkanites" unless you just want to argue semantics now). You don't get Bulgarian from North Italian or Iberia + Slavic anyway, you need extra East Med/Caucasus. You can get Croatian and Moldovan from N. Italian+Slavic, but not Bulgarian.

Here is a PCA plot of all Central European Beakers, including Hungarian ones(although I don't argue against later exotic ancestry in Hungary, it isn't exactly "native" though):

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-xAJS_vldnfs/Xc0mRSuqf1I/AAAAAAAAIZA/EVV0r8Xu1XEnIU5igRfFd6GyR1_DVAK5QCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Beaker_origins_PCA.png

Where is all this exotic ancestry? There is one North Italian(again, undoubtably gone post-Bronze Age until more exotic East Med shifted groups like Scythians arrive), but where is the even more southern ancestry needed to get modern Bulgarians, as seen in the Moravian early Medieval samples?

https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#Europe1

Here are all the relevant coords around the region, from CW/BB in southern Poland to Switzerland, plot them yourself on the "Europe1" PCA and show me these exotic samples:


Corded_Ware_POL_early: poz81,0.125205,0.093429,0.054682,0.114343,-0.014772,0.05271,-0.00094,-0.000462,-0.048063,-0.069432,-0.003248,-0.002847,-0.006095,-0.025047,0.038952,0.013392,-0.005476,-0.001647,0.003394,0.004377,0.003119,0.006554,-0.001602,0.020364,0.003712
Corded_Ware_POL:N44,0.119514,0.112724,0.054682,0.0 78489,0.013233,0.026495,0.004465,0,-0.023316,-0.037358,-0.002436,-0.001049,-0.000892,-0.015689,0.031351,0.011535,-0.016428,0.00076,0.003897,-0.000875,0.010856,0.009274,0.003328,0.018195,0.000 599
Corded_Ware_POL:N45,0.124067,0.114755,0.060716,0.0 82688,0.021542,0.026216,0.004935,0.006923,-0.016362,-0.03262,-0.004709,0.00015,-0.006095,-0.013349,0.025651,0.012596,-0.014081,0.001774,0.006285,0.006003,0.005615,0.007 543,0.000246,-0.00482,0
Corded_Ware_POL:N47,0.12862,0.116786,0.089755,0.07 6874,0.055395,0.021475,0.001175,0.007615,0.016566,-0.017677,-0.00065,-0.007493,-0.000149,-0.005643,0.006379,0.022673,0.013169,0.002027,0.001 006,0.011881,0.012478,0.002102,0.004067,-0.010965,-0.001197
Corded_Ware_POL:N49,0.122929,0.121864,0.082212,0.0 88179,0.036622,0.030678,0.00564,0.007154,0.002863,-0.027882,0.002761,-0.001649,0.0055,-0.001789,0.005022,0.018828,0.013038,0.004434,0.005 279,0.011631,0.011854,0.003091,-0.006409,-0.008314,0.001557
Corded_Ware_POL: pcw040,0.121791,0.110693,0.061471,0.085595,0.00615 5,0.032072,0.00846,-0.001615,-0.030474,-0.048475,-0.005684,-0.002248,-0.001041,-0.00867,0.028501,0.01538,-0.015255,0.00038,0.000628,0.005753,0.007362,0.0018 55,0.005793,0.018195,0.000239
Corded_Ware_POL: pcw041,0.122929,0.117801,0.052797,0.089794,0.01477 2,0.019243,-0.00047,0.001154,-0.041314,-0.045741,-0.012342,0,-0.003568,-0.024497,0.020087,0.017767,-0.01004,-0.006461,0.004148,0.005753,0.003743,-0.004699,0.007518,0.016749,-0.009221
Corded_Ware_POL: pcw061,0.125205,0.103584,0.059585,0.088179,0.00061 5,0.045459,0.00846,0.003461,-0.027202,-0.030798,-0.003735,-0.002248,-0.007582,-0.025047,0.024294,0.00411,-0.014603,-0.000253,-0.004148,0.007379,0.002121,0.012984,0.002095,0.022 774,-0.005029
Corded_Ware_POL: pcw070,0.124067,0.109677,0.061094,0.09044,-0.010463,0.039324,0.00376,-0.001154,-0.034769,-0.045012,-0.001949,0.003897,0.002973,-0.024497,0.019272,0.0179,0.012908,0.001014,0.00163 4,0.016133,0.004742,0.003957,-0.004067,0.011327,-0.003712
Corded_Ware_POL: pcw211,0.1161,0.101553,0.061094,0.084626,0.004308, 0.023985,-0.00235,-0.007384,-0.026997,-0.051937,-0.006333,0.013788,-0.000743,-0.013625,0.02348,0.021612,0.009779,0.004561,-0.004777,0.008504,-0.008859,-0.002844,0.009613,0.017834,-0.001916
Corded_Ware_POL: pcw350,0.130897,0.103584,0.049403,0.07106,0.006155 ,0.035419,0.024441,-0.007384,-0.025361,-0.037176,-0.000325,-0.004646,-0.007879,-0.010735,0.022665,-0.017237,-0.005998,-0.004054,0.013952,0.014132,0.008485,0.001113,0.015 899,0.015906,-0.00958
Corded_Ware_POL: pcw361,0.117238,0.118817,0.053551,0.080104,0.00984 8,0.028168,0.00517,0.008307,-0.019225,-0.034078,0.002111,0.004946,-0.006392,-0.010872,0.028637,0.011005,0.001304,-0.00228,-0.005782,0.003001,-0.002371,0.00272,-0.001479,0.015544,0.002754
Corded_Ware_POL: pcw362,0.118376,0.108662,0.050157,0.093347,-0.002154,0.036814,-0.00094,-0.003461,-0.025156,-0.044466,-0.005684,0.004796,-0.000297,-0.024359,0.03298,0.004375,-0.006128,0.001014,-0.002011,0.008754,-0.001373,0.004946,0.007888,0.021328,0.005269
CZE_EBA:I4884,0.132035,0.119832,0.065242,0.073321, 0.020004,0.032072,0.000235,0.007384,-0.006136,-0.018588,0.005521,-3e-04,-0.002081,-0.014863,0.02158,0.002121,-0.008345,-0.000253,0.001257,0.001876,0.003494,-0.009027,-0.002588,0.006507,-0.000599
CZE_EBA:I4892,0.125205,0.120848,0.061471,0.07106,0 .028621,0.0251,0.00564,0.005538,0.006954,-0.014943,-0.001137,0.002398,-0.00446,-0.012524,0.019815,0.014452,0.008214,-0.000633,0.004777,0.012131,0.007736,-0.004822,-0.00493,0.001084,0.00479
CZE_EBA:I7195,0.121791,0.127957,0.055437,0.068476, 0.024004,0.014502,0.00846,-0.004154,-0.003272,-0.008018,-0.009094,0.010041,-0.015312,-0.020368,0.023208,0.01843,0.008866,-0.004054,-0.002263,0.002501,0.010232,-0.002473,-0.005916,0.009037,-0.004191
CZE_EBA:I7196,0.129758,0.14319,0.056945,0.043282,0 .040623,0.007809,0.003525,0.000923,0.005318,0.0049 2,-0.010393,0.001349,-0.017096,-0.010184,0.031623,0.000928,-0.015385,0.003927,0.008925,-0.001251,0.005989,0.002473,0.005053,-0.003856,0.001197
CZE_EBA:I7198,0.127482,0.103584,0.054305,0.084949, 0.014772,0.026495,0.00329,-0.005769,-0.009204,-0.022051,0.003085,0.003597,-0.010555,-0.016239,0.028366,0.008884,-0.004563,0.008235,0.002011,-0.004252,-0.00025,0.000124,0.003081,0.008194,-0.001796
CZE_EBA:I7199,0.124067,0.116786,0.062225,0.082688, 0.018465,0.02761,-0.000235,-0.001154,-0.010431,-0.022415,-0.001624,-0.002548,-0.008474,-0.01679,0.018865,0.024396,0.01004,-0.00114,0.006662,0.010505,0.010981,0.009521,0.0007 39,0.007591,-0.00012
CZE_EBA:I7200,0.119514,0.122879,0.056568,0.062662, 0.016926,0.014781,0.000705,0.000231,-0.016157,-0.009659,-0.001299,0.002847,-0.0055,-0.007019,0.018322,0.023866,0.013169,0.000507,0.002 765,0.003377,0.00287,0.007543,0.003697,0.009399,-0.005628
CZE_EBA:I7201,0.130897,0.119832,0.063356,0.06783,0 .035083,0.01255,0.005875,0.004384,0.000409,-0.011299,0.001624,-0.001349,-0.000149,-0.007982,0.021987,0.008221,-0.008345,0,-0.003897,0.013381,0.014724,0.000371,-0.000246,0.005422,0.006347
CZE_EBA:I7202,0.12862,0.125926,0.057699,0.07429,0. 026466,0.024263,0.00752,0.005538,-0.007772,-0.015308,-0.009906,-0.001499,-0.008028,-0.005643,0.017101,-0.004375,-0.022426,0.00114,0.002765,0.002126,0.009733,0.0061 83,0.007025,0.006025,-0.009101
DEU_Lech_BBC:UNTA58_68Sk1,0.125205,0.145221,0.0328 09,0.008075,0.035699,-0.009203,-0.00188,0.002538,0.004295,0.028793,-0.003735,0.009142,-0.024678,-0.007844,-0.002172,-0.00305,0.006258,0.006461,0.006662,-0.005878,-0.00025,-0.004822,-0.01972,0.003133,-0.001676
DEU_Lech_BBC:WEHR_1192SkA,0.129758,0.13405,0.06788 2,0.065892,0.033237,0.019243,0.00047,-0.002538,0.008999,0.005467,0.000162,0.01109,-0.010406,-0.008945,0.022801,0.010209,-0.004433,0.009122,0.003645,0.000875,0.006364,0.011 994,0.000739,0.008796,-0.000479
DEU_Lech_EBA_contam: POST_44,0.124067,0.144205,0.056568,0.008721,0.0492 4,-0.001952,-0.00188,0.000692,0.008795,0.028247,0.001299,0.0092 92,-0.017988,-0.003028,0.005293,0.008353,-0.002608,-0.00266,0.004525,0.001126,-0.008235,-0.008285,-0.001356,-0.002651,-0.003233
DEU_Lech_EBA_contam: POST_50,0.120652,0.153345,0.043746,-0.002584,0.052933,-0.003347,-0.00329,-0.002077,0.022293,0.031162,-0.005846,0.008692,-0.022299,-0.010459,-0.002172,0.014585,0.021253,0.004307,0.001257,-0.005753,0.00262,0.000124,0.002835,-0.005181,-0.010418
DEU_Lech_EBA_contam:WEHR_1415child,0.135449,0.1279 57,0.04978,0.051034,0.029852,0.019243,0.005875,0,-0.000205,0.002734,-0.006171,0.012589,-0.013082,-0.020231,0.020494,0.006895,-0.004694,0.001774,0.005154,0.00963,0.002995,0.0045 75,-0.001849,-0.006386,-0.005149
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_119,0.121791,0.140143,0.05242,0. 026486,0.040623,0.003068,0.001175,0.001154,0.00347 7,0.017859,-0.001299,0.01124,-0.020961,-0.019818,0.01045,0.02201,0.01708,-0.0019,0.009679,0.002376,0.007986,0.003957,-0.005053,0.000964,0.008382
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_2,0.124067,0.140143,0.056191,0.0 41021,0.042162,0.016455,-0.003055,0.002077,0.014112,0.018406,0.002273,0.006 744,-0.020218,-0.000413,0.011672,0.001591,-0.008996,-0.006334,0.013073,0.012631,0.006988,0.00371,0.0014 79,-0.005422,-0.00467
DEU_Lech_EBA:AITI_78,0.132035,0.135065,0.046386,0. 034238,0.036314,0.003626,0.002585,0.005769,0.00531 8,0.010023,0.001299,0.011839,-0.016947,-0.015001,0.017236,0.015115,0.021513,0.005828,0.003 268,0.003252,0.006239,-0.002102,0.001109,-0.002651,-0.001676
DEU_Lech_EBA: POST_6,0.12862,0.128972,0.065996,0.053941,0.03416, 0.018128,0.00094,-0.002769,0.002863,0.001822,-0.006333,0.011989,-0.003865,-0.015001,0.015065,0.00305,-0.004303,-0.001394,0.002891,0.002751,0.007487,-0.003339,-0.004067,0.001446,-0.006107
DEU_Lech_EBA:UNTA85_1412,0.127482,0.14319,0.055437 ,0.032946,0.035391,0.009203,0.014806,-0.001154,-0.001841,0.010934,0.007957,0.008692,-0.018583,-0.018854,0.0076,0.016176,0.011865,-0.00266,0.004525,0.003877,-0.003244,-0.00371,-0.003821,0.019039,-0.004071
DEU_Lech_EBA:WEHR_1415adult_d,0.124067,0.119832,0. 062225,0.066538,0.017849,0.02259,-0.001645,0.000231,-0.019021,-0.012574,-0.00341,0.007044,-0.00773,-0.019955,0.026601,0.020419,0.01682,0.001394,-0.004902,0.01063,0.012353,-0.002349,0.005176,0.003253,-0.016046
DEU_Lech_MBA:OTTM_151ind2_d,0.127482,0.156392,0.04 7894,0.005491,0.04647,-0.011435,0.00329,0.011538,0.010022,0.031345,0.0064 96,0.012889,-0.012487,-0.01156,-0.0095,0.000796,0.001565,-0.003801,-0.005656,0.005753,-0.002995,0.009521,-0.001356,-0.006386,-0.011855
DEU_Singen_EBA:MX252,0.125205,0.136081,0.054305,0. 040052,0.035391,0.009761,-0.00846,-0.000462,0.017385,0.011116,0.000487,0.002997,-0.009514,-0.011285,0.016422,0.008486,-0.005476,0.006461,0.004777,0.001626,0.009858,-0.002844,-0.012202,-0.001807,-0.003832
DEU_Singen_EBA:MX257,0.120652,0.129988,0.04714,0.0 3876,0.040315,-0.002231,0.002115,0.001615,0.006954,0.014032,-0.007957,0.001499,-0.009812,-0.017478,0.022122,-0.001591,0.00013,-0.00038,0.018352,-0.002751,-0.002371,-0.003462,0.002095,-0.010001,-0.00012
DEU_Singen_EBA:MX258,0.122929,0.126941,0.053174,0. 032623,0.036007,0.013666,-0.003055,-0.002077,0.003272,0.010205,-0.002273,0.001798,-0.01665,-0.029589,0.016829,0.014452,0.010561,0.004561,-0.008422,0.022761,0.008735,0.017435,0.005423,0.005 904,0.008622
DEU_Singen_EBA:MX277,0.118376,0.142174,0.050534,0. 006137,0.045855,-0.001673,0.002115,0.005307,0.024543,0.042643,-0.012829,0.014087,-0.01665,-0.014038,0.002307,-0.005038,-0.012647,-0.005321,-0.00176,0.000125,-0.000499,0.000618,-0.006286,-0.002169,-0.000359
DEU_Singen_EBA:MX279,0.136588,0.137096,0.053928,0. 051357,0.0397,0.014223,-0.00235,-0.005077,0.003272,0.013668,-0.012666,0.008842,-0.009514,-0.016102,0.012351,0.016574,0.010952,0.000253,-0.002765,-0.001,0.000374,0.004081,-0.01442,0.005904,-0.008023
DEU_Singen_EBA:MX280,0.118376,0.13405,0.064488,0.0 43928,0.0437,0.011156,0.00141,-0.000692,0.017385,0.007289,-0.002598,0.004946,-0.016204,-0.021469,0.009636,0.024396,0.008475,0.00266,0.0012 57,0.006003,0.002121,0.004081,0.001972,-0.001566,0.001796
DEU_Singen_EBA:MX286,0.12862,0.132019,0.048271,0.0 30039,0.042162,0.006136,-0.00235,0.002077,0.01268,0.023326,-0.002598,0.003597,-0.019921,-0.014726,0.013301,0.014054,0.011865,0.006714,-0.001885,0.004127,0.009358,0.015704,0.006532,-0.014339,0.003233
DEU_Singen_EBA:MX288,0.133173,0.13405,0.062979,0.0 39406,0.049855,0.007251,0.00658,0.009461,0.009613, 0.01713,-0.00682,0.004946,-0.011744,-0.00867,0.018729,0.012729,0.00339,0.000507,-0.000754,0.003877,0.014724,0.00371,-0.001972,-0.009519,0.001916
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:E09538,0.121791,0.147252,0.032 809,0.007429,0.035391,-0.006136,-0.00235,0.002769,0.00634,0.028793,-0.001949,0.009891,-0.023637,-0.012111,-0.000814,-0.002121,0.007041,0.002154,0.007039,-0.004127,0.000624,-0.004575,-0.016269,0.001325,-0.001078
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:E09569,0.117238,0.122879,0.051 666,0.050065,0.026466,0.015897,-0.00282,-0.000692,0.005522,0.002369,0.001624,0.002698,-0.004014,-0.009909,0.014251,0.005436,-0.002086,0.003801,-0.004399,0.008254,0.005241,0.00507,-0.001356,-0.000482,0.000239
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:E09613_d,0.125205,0.123895,0.0 48649,0.063954,0.025235,0.01757,0.008225,-0.008769,-0.003886,-0.008201,-0.002273,-0.004796,-0.012042,-0.021882,0.017236,0.00769,0.008736,0,0.006411,-0.003752,0.01984,0.011376,0.00456,-0.00241,-0.00012
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I3588,0.12862,0.132019,0.04789 4,0.037145,0.036314,0.005578,0.00235,0.005077,0.01 084,0.018041,-0.00341,0.01124,-0.019772,-0.016377,-0.002714,0.015248,0.017471,-0.004687,0.003142,0.009505,0.002246,0.001113,-0.007641,0.007832,0.002515
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I3589,0.127482,0.135065,0.0509 11,0.051034,0.028928,0.008088,0.006815,0.001615,-0.007158,-0.001458,0.002436,0.004196,-0.008028,-0.01679,0.0076,0.022938,0.009779,-0.00114,0.00088,0.014007,0.006738,0.000124,0.00776 5,0.001325,-0.006227
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I3590,0.120652,0.147252,0.0441 23,0.018088,0.037853,-0.004462,-0.001645,-0.006461,0.009204,0.010387,0,0.012439,-0.014271,-0.007019,0.005972,-0.00411,-0.017602,0.008235,0.019986,0.004377,-0.001996,0.001731,-0.01479,-0.000602,0.003592
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I3594,0.130897,0.155376,0.0414 83,-0.016473,0.055703,-0.012829,-0.007285,0.006231,0.028838,0.044101,-0.001786,0.013788,-0.018434,-0.0139,-0.005565,0.000796,-0.001434,-0.005448,0.000628,-0.005127,0.002246,0.002844,-0.006039,-0.00253,0.000838
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I3600,0.135449,0.122879,0.0509 11,0.046835,0.028313,0.015618,-0.004465,-0.001846,-0.005931,0.006378,-0.000162,-0.008393,-0.000892,-0.017065,0.010722,0.018032,0.014864,0.005068,-0.002011,0.011756,0.00574,0.005688,0.006902,0.0004 82,0.001317
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I3601,0.119514,0.119832,0.0452 54,0.061047,0.018773,0.024263,-0.000705,-0.001154,-0.001841,-0.006925,-0.00406,0.008093,-0.017245,-0.024634,0.024701,0.02148,0.012386,-0.004814,-0.001383,0.007879,-0.001996,-0.002226,-0.006779,0.009037,-0.00467
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5017,0.132035,0.14319,0.02790 7,0.010982,0.017542,-0.00251,-0.003525,-0.006923,-0.012476,0.016948,0.001461,0.001049,-0.011893,-0.000963,-0.009365,0.00716,0.001695,-0.000887,0,0.001876,-0.010606,-0.008532,-0.005053,0.014219,-0.008382
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5020,0.122929,0.126941,0.0663 73,0.047481,0.03693,0.037092,0.00188,-0.001154,-0.00225,0.01713,-0.023546,0.017534,-0.002973,-0.024497,0.018865,0.015248,-0.000782,0.007601,-0.006788,0.004127,0.009608,-0.005193,-0.008997,-0.022172,0.011376
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5023,0.134311,0.126941,0.0693 9,0.066861,0.03416,0.026495,0.004935,0.000462,0.00 45,-0.005103,0.004222,0.008542,-0.012042,-0.01913,0.021172,0.0179,0.015646,0,0.000377,0.0102 55,0.004118,0.001237,0.006162,0.00976,0.001437
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5519,0.12862,0.121864,0.05845 4,0.075259,0.024004,0.027889,0.00094,0.001385,-0.007976,-0.018041,0.00341,0.003747,-0.003717,-0.014175,0.019272,0.024662,-0.000391,-0.00076,0.008925,0.006628,0.005865,0.005441,0.0050 53,0.008194,-0.003592
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5520,0.136588,0.136081,0.0399 75,0.014212,0.036314,0.008925,-0.004935,-0.000462,0.0045,0.026242,0.007145,0.008393,-0.016204,-0.018441,0.005157,-0.00358,0.011213,-0.004687,-0.000377,-0.000125,0.000873,-0.001855,-0.004437,0.003615,-0.003712
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5521,0.135449,0.128972,0.0705 22,0.057494,0.028005,0.027889,-0.00329,0.002077,-0.001023,-0.004738,-0.005846,0.013188,-0.013825,-0.016102,0.020358,0.005171,0.004303,0.001647,0.009 93,0.010755,0.006738,0.010263,-0.001109,-0.003253,-0.006586
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5523,0.127482,0.121864,0.0561 91,0.062339,0.0397,0.018686,0.010575,-0.006461,-0.005931,-0.016766,-0.00065,0.005245,-0.006095,-0.016377,0.025515,0.006364,-0.00339,0.005068,0.00088,0.005753,0.000873,0.00086 6,0.000493,0.006989,-0.006466
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5524,0.120652,0.145221,0.0384 66,-0.001292,0.041238,-0.002789,0.00893,0.008307,0.008999,0.026242,-0.001949,0.011839,-0.005946,0.003441,-0.00095,-0.005436,-0.012256,0.00152,0.004148,-0.006003,-0.002246,0.001484,-0.0053,-0.008073,0.000599
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5525,0.127482,0.132019,0.0667 5,0.05168,0.040623,0.018407,0.00846,0.005538,0.012 68,0.00164,0.001299,0.002098,-0.008028,-0.011285,0.018729,0.023071,0.018906,-0.003294,-0.002765,0.010255,0.010731,-0.000742,0.000863,-0.006507,-0.003473
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5529,0.132035,0.136081,0.0490 26,0.028424,0.035391,0.006136,0.005875,0.005307,0. 007567,0.010934,0.010068,0.012139,-0.016204,-0.010184,0.006922,0.004375,-0.000913,0.004181,0.008673,0.002626,-0.001872,0.004328,0.006162,0.009881,0.001437
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5531,0.125205,0.13405,0.06675 ,0.062985,0.042162,0.020638,0.00658,0.010615,-0.001432,-0.017495,-0.006333,0.001649,0.005798,-0.005092,0.007329,0.008221,0.001825,0.006841,0.005 656,0.005753,0.003619,0.002349,0.000493,-0.002651,-0.001197
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5658,0.129758,0.119832,0.0505 34,0.059109,0.027082,0.016455,-0.001645,0.001846,0.000614,-0.002369,0.002436,0.009292,-0.00773,-0.006744,0.021851,-0.004508,-0.017732,0.004434,0.004902,0.011005,0.017469,-0.002968,0.002342,0.017111,-0.004191
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5659,0.138864,0.12491,0.07353 9,0.062339,0.031083,0.023706,0.002115,0.012923,0.0 1084,-0.002916,-0.00682,0.000749,-0.010258,-0.006744,0.014386,0.008353,0.000261,0.003801,-0.012193,0.012756,0.019466,-0.000742,0.008751,0.000602,-0.023471
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5833,0.114961,0.136081,0.0656 19,0.050711,0.037545,0.01004,-0.00329,0.000462,0.012271,0.007289,0.001949,0.0028 47,-0.014569,-0.011836,0.021444,0.008884,0.004955,-0.001394,0.00264,-0.001251,0.006613,0.012736,-0.002095,-0.003856,-0.001197
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I5834,0.125205,0.129988,0.0509 11,0.048127,0.033852,0.020917,-0.00658,-0.000692,0.009817,0.011663,-0.001624,0.003747,-0.004906,-0.010459,0.011536,0.013126,0.000391,0.007981,0.003 52,-0.005503,-0.002496,-0.000742,-0.008874,-0.000964,0.000958
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I6590,0.119514,0.132019,0.0592 08,0.039729,0.038469,0.007809,-0.000235,0.001846,0.012067,0.011845,0.00341,0.0082 43,-0.012339,-0.010597,0.022394,0.005304,0.004172,0.004941,0.006 034,0.011506,0.010981,0.006059,0.005176,0.000964,0 .003712
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I6591,0.124067,0.135065,0.0429 92,0.030039,0.023697,0.006972,0.003055,0.003461,0. 009817,0.012028,-0.003085,0.005095,-0.00773,-0.012111,0.013029,0.006232,0.010822,0.001014,0.001 131,0.003252,0.00262,0.012489,0.002342,-0.004338,-0.001676
Bell_Beaker_Bavaria:I6624,0.130897,0.138112,0.0569 45,0.040052,0.035391,0.006136,-0.001175,0.008769,0.015544,0.024055,0.003248,0.016 036,-0.00996,-0.004404,0.017779,-0.002784,-0.0103,0.003927,0.002891,0.003877,0.003369,-0.000247,0.000246,-0.011086,0.006466
Bell_Beaker_CHE:I5755,0.119514,0.133034,0.067127,0 .022933,0.045547,0,-0.01081,0.001615,0.019021,0.01877,0.007957,0.00539 5,-0.010852,-0.020368,0.017779,0.009016,-0.001825,0.005828,0.003394,0.006128,0.008984,0.001 731,0.016145,-0.015665,0.004311
Bell_Beaker_CHE:I5759,0.126344,0.127957,0.022627,0 .011628,0.031698,0.008088,0.00658,0.003923,0.02270 2,0.014397,0.008444,-0.002847,-0.029286,-0.00289,0.003122,-0.00716,-0.001825,-0.000507,0.003394,0.005628,-0.012603,0.000247,-0.021075,0.002048,-0.011137
Bell_Beaker_CZE_o:I5025,0.122929,0.127957,0.072407 ,0.065246,0.03693,0.016733,0.010575,0.017768,-0.009408,-0.000547,0.005684,-0.006145,0.004014,0.011698,-0.00855,-0.000928,-0.007041,-0.002787,0.017095,0.001501,-0.011105,0.004081,0.008258,-0.009278,-0.007903
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I4885,0.122929,0.147252,0.038466,0 .016473,0.026774,0.004183,0.00188,0.003,0.003681,0 .019135,0.005034,0,-0.012785,-0.011973,0.001357,0.006364,-0.001043,0.00228,0.00905,-0.008629,0.006364,0.002968,-0.00037,0.000361,-0.002395
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I4886,0.127482,0.135065,0.043369,0 .026163,0.027697,0.01255,0.00611,0.006231,0.00225, 0.01057,-0.000162,0.007493,-0.013528,-0.019267,0.007736,0.007955,0.018906,-0.002407,0.007039,0.01013,0.010731,0.008037,0.0080 11,0.002289,-0.005389
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I4888,0.127482,0.138112,0.051666,0 .037791,0.037238,0.007809,-0.003525,0.005538,0.010226,0.006196,-0.001786,0.005695,-0.005649,-0.006055,0.017101,-0.002652,-0.021513,0.002154,0.00729,-0.004252,-0.003119,0.00272,-0.008627,-0.002892,0.00012
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I4889,0.127482,0.125926,0.051666,0 .040052,0.02739,0.008925,0.010105,0.006692,0.00470 4,-0.000182,-0.003248,0.002548,-0.019475,-0.005505,0.017779,0.006099,-0.004042,-0.000507,0.013324,0.001376,0.005366,0.005688,0.001 356,0.007471,-0.000359
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I4891,0.129758,0.140143,0.052797,0 .037468,0.038776,0.011156,0.007285,0.008077,0.0038 86,0.012757,0.001137,0.008393,-0.010109,-0.003303,0.008958,-0.009016,-0.019297,0.004181,0.00729,0.006753,0.004866,-0.000866,-0.005546,-0.016749,0.000359
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I4895,0.12862,0.125926,0.049026,0. 056848,0.029544,0.014781,0.006815,0.004846,0.00204 5,-0.00492,-0.005359,0.009292,-0.014569,-0.003303,0.023615,0.005171,-0.005346,0.002027,0,0.017258,0.008859,-0.00507,-0.006779,0.004458,0.002395
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I4896,0.125205,0.135065,0.050534,0 .027132,0.035083,0.012271,0.009165,0.008538,-0.003477,0.003462,0.01088,0.005995,-0.008028,-0.013212,0.001764,0.006232,-0.000652,-0.004814,0.008673,0.00025,0.007986,0.007914,0.0019 72,0.010604,-0.003592
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I4945,0.133173,0.129988,0.045632,0 .023902,0.043085,0.003626,-0.00235,0.008077,0.002863,0.010205,0.000487,0.0088 42,-0.005946,-0.010597,-0.004886,0.017634,0.016428,0.00152,0.008422,0.0040 02,-0.003369,0.002473,0.000123,0.008676,-0.000359
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I4946,0.130897,0.132019,0.055814,0 .044897,0.030775,0.008646,-0.006815,0.002077,0.001023,0.008383,-0.006983,0.00015,-0.020961,-0.011285,0.011536,0.00716,-0.001304,0.012162,0.004399,0.001751,0.00262,0.0059 35,-0.005669,-0.001928,0.003113
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I5514,0.134311,0.13405,0.062225,0. 060401,0.022773,0.021753,-0.002115,0.008077,-0.00225,-0.015672,-0.003573,0.007493,-0.005649,-0.01913,0.024701,0.012994,-0.012908,0.002154,-0.000503,0.009505,0.006738,0.000495,0.000123,0.002 169,-0.001317
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I5666,0.124067,0.137096,0.04978,0. 051357,0.029544,0.017291,-0.000705,0.004615,0.010022,-0.002916,0.001461,-0.003897,-0.010704,-0.007982,0.007057,0.016176,0.002477,-0.006208,-0.000377,-0.006753,-0.00262,0.005564,0.000986,-0.008435,0.00012
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I6480,0.118376,0.126941,0.055437,0 .049742,0.028313,0.017291,0.00376,-0.003231,-0.003068,-0.012028,0.001299,-0.001649,-0.011001,-0.014313,0.016286,-0.009414,-0.024643,0.006461,0.012444,-0.000125,-0.00025,0.008779,0.001725,0.006507,-0.001916
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7205,0.124067,0.121864,0.058454,0 .072998,0.026466,0.028168,-0.002585,0.012923,-0.001023,-0.022051,0.003248,0.004646,-0.017393,-0.011973,0.033794,-0.001458,-0.021644,0.002914,0.002137,-5e-04,0.004243,0.006677,0.003944,0.00494,0.002155
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7211,0.132035,0.135065,0.051288,0 .053295,0.038469,0.01004,0.00282,0.011769,0.007363 ,0.009112,0.000812,0.003747,-0.014123,-0.016102,0.012486,0.023734,0.015646,0.001647,-0.002388,0.006128,0.010232,-0.002968,0.002588,-0.006627,-0.006347
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7212,0.124067,0.136081,0.064488,0 .056525,0.046778,0.01506,0.00752,0.004384,0.002045 ,0.002369,-0.00682,0.002548,-0.009812,-0.014038,0.020358,0.008486,0.001173,-0.00038,0.010433,0.006378,0.003244,0.003215,0.0049 3,-0.004579,0.002155
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7213,0.125205,0.129988,0.058077,0 .046189,0.046162,0.009203,0,0.014769,0.005931,0.00 9112,0.002436,0.007044,-0.014866,-0.009909,0.0057,0.012463,0.002217,-0.004181,0.004525,0.006003,-0.002995,0.000866,-0.005176,-0.011447,-0.005029
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7214,0.132035,0.125926,0.053928,0 .039083,0.044624,0.015339,0.00141,0.003692,0.00736 3,0.014032,0.001299,0.004946,-0.013974,-0.021194,0.002307,0.012331,0.02021,0.003294,-0.000628,0.006628,0.005241,-0.003833,-0.008258,-0.001325,-0.002515
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7249,0.12862,0.125926,0.057699,0. 04845,0.032006,0.02008,0.00752,0.011769,0.00634,-0.008201,-0.005521,0.002698,-0.005798,-0.014863,0.012758,0.001591,-0.007432,0.00228,0.002263,0.002876,0.004742,0.0096 45,-0.007395,-0.002892,-0.005389
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7250,0.104717,0.128972,0.050157,0 .046512,0.029852,0.005857,0.012926,0.001615,0.0063 4,-0.002005,-0.001137,0.005845,-0.010258,-0.022295,0.018729,0.011535,0.006128,0.009375,0.003 897,0.006628,0.004742,0.005812,-0.005546,-0.005784,-0.008382
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7251,0.122929,0.126941,0.05506,0. 056525,0.03416,0.021196,-0.00329,0.006923,-0.007158,-0.004009,0.000162,-0.004946,-0.010704,-0.007156,0.015879,0.013524,-0.007041,-0.001394,0.001257,0.001376,-0.003868,0.011129,-0.003821,0.013616,0.000718
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7269,0.127482,0.132019,0.04978,0. 048127,0.034776,0.01757,0.003525,0.006,0.002045,-0.002916,0.003735,0.010641,-0.00892,-0.011147,0.016694,0.015115,-0.003129,0.000127,0.006411,0.003126,0.004492,0.008 408,0.001849,0.010363,-0.012214
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7275,0.129758,0.132019,0.039221,0 .030685,0.02185,0.012271,0.005875,0.000923,-0.006749,0.009841,0.001299,0.006145,-0.016055,-0.011698,0.016694,0.005967,0.000391,0.001394,0.001 634,0.00025,-0.005366,0.000495,0.000863,0.009881,-0.005389
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7276,0.126344,0.129988,0.057322,0 .046189,0.025851,0.019801,0.00376,-0.000231,0.002863,0.004191,0.006333,0.003747,-0.011744,-0.019542,0.011401,0.013922,0.016428,0.002407,0.003 897,0.006003,-0.001622,0.009521,-0.007518,-0.00012,-0.010658
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7278,0.12862,0.125926,0.050534,0. 048127,0.032006,0.017849,0.003525,0.003,0.001432,0 .011663,0.000487,0.005695,-0.011447,-0.013625,0.011536,0.025988,0.01343,-0.00228,0.004777,-0.001876,0.005615,0.001484,-0.003204,0.010122,-0.00012
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7281,0.124067,0.131003,0.072407,0 .064923,0.028313,0.018686,0.00611,0.001846,-0.005318,-0.006925,0,-0.00015,-0.011001,-0.003578,0.014115,-0.006895,-0.01356,-0.001394,-0.006411,0.006378,0.002246,0.003091,0.000493,-0.000602,0.005748
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7282,0.124067,0.135065,0.064111,0 .040052,0.038776,0.008367,0.001175,0.001615,0.0179 98,0.016948,0.005196,0.006594,-0.009068,-0.021882,0.013708,0.016309,0.011995,0.002027,0.000 754,0.012881,0.018343,0.001731,0.000986,-0.004097,-0.008023
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7286,0.132035,0.133034,0.075801,0 .069122,0.045239,0.023148,0.000705,0.012692,0.0096 13,0.000911,-0.006496,-0.004946,-0.000892,-0.002752,0.00855,0.009016,0.000782,0.002534,0.0055 31,0.017008,0.012104,0.001484,-0.013927,-0.020364,-0.003113
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7287,0.124067,0.128972,0.054305,0 .053618,0.026466,0.021753,-0.003525,-0.000462,0.007772,0.006014,-0.005196,0.009292,-0.014123,-0.018992,0.013708,0.02559,0.002477,0.003294,-0.006536,0.003126,-0.005241,0.004699,-0.001972,0.003856,-0.007544
Bell_Beaker_CZE:I7290,0.126344,0.135065,0.060339,0 .050388,0.040931,0.01757,0.004465,0.008307,0.01779 4,0.007107,0.008119,0.002398,-0.015609,-0.015001,0.016422,0.001989,0.004303,-0.002787,-0.004651,5e-04,0.000499,0.001978,-0.001356,-0.011568,-0.002754
Bell_Beaker_POL:I4253,0.12862,0.120848,0.046386,0. 039406,0.025235,0.017012,0.00658,0.005538,-0.007158,-0.002005,0.002598,0.001798,-0.019029,-0.007156,0.019544,0.004906,-0.004955,0.00228,0.008296,0.013757,0.007986,0.0119 94,0.003944,-0.002771,0.006227
Bell_Beaker_POL:I6580,0.126344,0.120848,0.058077,0 .070737,0.028313,0.019522,0.00235,0.006461,-0.009817,-0.016219,-0.00406,0.002248,-0.003717,-0.012799,0.025108,0.012729,-0.01004,0.006588,0.000126,0.009755,0.009109,0.0011 13,0.002588,0.003976,-0.000479
Bell_Beaker_POL:I6582,0.125205,0.13405,0.047894,0. 027455,0.039084,-0.000558,0.003055,0.000231,0.002454,0.021504,0.000 812,0.011989,-0.019029,-0.016239,-0.002579,0.020286,0.015776,-0.002407,0.010684,0.002751,0.003119,0.003339,0.002 465,-0.001928,-0.006227
Bell_Beaker_POL:I6583,0.127482,0.128972,0.059585,0 .060401,0.032314,0.026495,0.00329,-0.000923,-0.001432,-0.006196,-0.009581,-0.000899,-0.011893,-0.010046,0.027551,0.003845,-0.012517,0.00038,-0.002011,5e-04,0.005989,0.004328,-0.000616,-0.00012,-0.00467
Bell_Beaker_POL: pcw260,0.125205,0.144205,0.051288,0.026809,0.03108 3,0.018686,0.00047,0.000692,0.004704,0.014214,-0.008607,0.002847,-0.018137,-0.012248,0.009772,0.004375,0.002738,-0.007601,-0.000754,0.001501,0.007986,0.006554,0.010353,0.003 253,0.002754
Bell_Beaker_POL: pcw280,0.138864,0.125926,0.046763,0.041021,0.02000 4,0.017849,-0.000705,0.002538,-0.014521,-0.009112,0.002598,0.004496,-0.015312,-0.014588,0.013843,0.004773,0.005215,0.006081,0.005 154,-0.006253,-0.000499,0.021763,0.012818,-0.000482,0.00958
CHE_EBA:RA63,0.118376,0.131003,0.045254,0.030685,0 .052317,0.013945,-0.004465,-0.003923,0.014521,0.017859,0.005359,0.006894,-0.017839,-0.021056,0.021172,0.028905,0.008996,0.000887,-0.005531,-0.00075,-0.002371,0.00371,-0.006162,-0.002651,0.000239
CHE_EBA:RA64,0.121791,0.123895,0.05506,0.05168,0.0 30159,0.018407,0,0.002308,0,0.000364,-0.005196,0.005095,-0.007284,-0.024497,0.020494,0.020949,0.009127,-0.002787,0.000628,0.009755,-0.001248,0.00272,-0.011216,0.003856,-0.005149
CHE_EBA:SX20,0.132035,0.147252,0.055437,0.010336,0 .056934,0.010319,0.002115,0.000462,0.011862,0.0246 02,-0.00406,0.013338,-0.022596,-0.010872,0.006243,-0.008751,-0.016037,-0.003041,0.000126,-0.007253,-0.003743,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.010483,-0.003113
CHE_EBA:SX23,0.124067,0.136081,0.056191,0.038437,0 .032621,0.010877,0.00611,0.001846,0.008795,0.01330 3,-0.002111,0.018883,-0.012785,-0.012248,0.017508,0.000663,-0.002347,0.001394,0.001885,-0.001,0.013601,0.008779,-0.00912,-0.006748,-0.001557

So, where are all these North Italians, and even more east Med/southern shifted Italians required to get Bulgarian when mixed with Slavic?


CHE_IA probably represents the most southern shifted people in this Switzerland to Bavaria, Austria, Czechia, Slovakia, southern Poland region, and yes, the average for the Alpine region after steppe and neolithic ancestries had mixed into a homogenous population, and are likely the best proxy for average Alpine Celts. Plot these on the PCA I linked and see how it paints a very clear picture how anything more southern would be from outside the region, there is no ancestry here that can lead to N. Italian or Bulgarian:


CHE_FN_steppe_contam:MX304,0.1161,0.131003,0.07052 2,0.025194,0.035391,0.031236,0.026086,-0.010615,0.008181,0.032256,0.001461,0.020831,0.010 555,-0.00289,0.012622,-0.005701,-0.000913,0.026351,0.011816,-0.014382,-0.002121,-0.014591,-0.002835,0.011929,-0.017483
CHE_FN:SX17,0.125205,0.167562,0.029038,-0.052972,0.082477,-0.023985,-0.000705,-0.009461,0.04745,0.092758,0.012017,0.020831,-0.025718,-0.015964,-0.016829,-0.00411,0.009779,0.002787,0.019106,-0.007003,-0.004367,0.011005,-0.012202,-0.019641,0.004071
CHE_FN:SX21,0.120652,0.176702,0.041106,-0.061693,0.074168,-0.034304,-0.00846,0.001385,0.051131,0.094763,0.00065,0.02038 2,-0.027502,-0.011423,-0.012622,-0.005834,0.01343,0.007221,0.003017,-0.008629,-0.004243,-0.000989,-0.007395,-0.019641,0.005149
CHE_FN:SX22,0.1161,0.174671,0.04714,-0.062016,0.072013,-0.035698,0.000705,0.006231,0.055426,0.086198,0.004 222,0.01079,-0.026016,-0.002064,-0.020222,-0.004508,0.003129,0.005828,0.003897,0.000375,0.003 244,0.006059,-0.011585,-0.016147,-0.00012
CHE_FN:SX26,0.126344,0.174671,0.044123,-0.053295,0.086785,-0.029005,0.00047,-0.010384,0.057267,0.084558,0.002436,0.011839,-0.025421,0.004129,-0.031216,-0.015115,-0.001956,0.001014,0.004651,-0.000375,0.001497,0.006059,-0.023787,-0.025546,-0.001557
CHE_IA:SX18,0.125205,0.153345,0.050534,-0.003876,0.049548,-0.005578,0.0047,-0.002077,0.014726,0.033896,0.001786,0.016335,-0.016353,-0.008945,0.001764,-0.001591,0.009518,0.001647,0.002514,-0.006128,0.005241,0.005688,-0.012078,-0.004338,0.000958
CHE_LN_contam:Aesch6,0.135449,0.17264,0.049026,-0.034561,0.077553,-0.020638,-0.00752,0.002308,0.050108,0.061596,-0.003573,0.011839,-0.013974,-0.012524,-0.012758,-0.009016,0.003129,0.003167,0.004274,-0.002251,0.02271,0.007048,-0.007765,-0.026148,0.003233
CHE_LN_contam:Aesch7,0.129758,0.165531,0.051288,-0.033592,0.09294,-0.022311,-0.0094,0.005077,0.057471,0.082917,-0.008607,0.014387,-0.022299,-0.007707,-0.008279,0.004243,0.001565,0.004307,-0.001257,0.005503,0.008111,0.00371,-0.018734,-0.031812,0.006107
CHE_LN_contam:MX299,0.113823,0.17264,0.038089,-0.043928,0.082169,-0.024263,-0.0094,-0.004615,0.074447,0.100777,-0.002598,0.016036,-0.032408,-0.007844,-0.016558,-0.009016,0.019427,-0.00152,-0.007039,-0.007379,0.004243,-0.005935,-0.01479,-0.02651,-0.005508
CHE_LN_steppe:Aesch25,0.12862,0.118817,0.059585,0. 091732,0.00677,0.032072,0.005875,0.012923,-0.025156,-0.028793,-0.007145,0.002398,-0.002527,-0.016928,0.029044,0.008486,-0.007041,-0.00228,-0.002263,0,0.000873,0.000371,-0.001849,0.011206,0.002634
CHE_LN:Aesch1,0.133173,0.170609,0.049026,-0.042636,0.076322,-0.029005,-0.00141,-0.000231,0.062175,0.094398,0.005521,0.018733,-0.02884,-0.010597,-0.019408,-0.014452,-0.000261,0.008235,0.009804,0.001751,0.006114,0.006 183,-0.013927,-0.015544,0.011855
CHE_LN:Aesch10,0.12862,0.175687,0.047517,-0.038114,0.075399,-0.030399,-0.000235,0.003461,0.065243,0.08146,-0.001299,0.015886,-0.024232,-0.007569,-0.005157,-0.011933,-0.002868,0.001014,0.00352,-0.01013,0.013351,0.002968,-0.02391,-0.038078,-0.002155
CHE_LN:Aesch13,0.126344,0.177718,0.05242,-0.030685,0.087401,-0.029562,-0.00047,0.005538,0.056858,0.086927,-0.001299,0.008842,-0.029881,-0.01968,-0.006379,0.004508,0.005085,0.004307,0.00729,-0.004502,0.015098,0.016446,-0.025019,-0.027474,-0.000958
CHE_LN:Aesch15,0.126344,0.174671,0.055437,-0.049742,0.084631,-0.02008,-0.015041,0.005538,0.06647,0.083464,0.005196,0.0116 9,-0.028543,-0.015689,-0.016015,-0.00716,0.011735,-0.002027,0.003142,-0.012006,0.018717,0.007543,-0.006655,-0.028438,-0.002275
CHE_LN:Aesch16,0.125205,0.156392,0.034318,-0.040052,0.075399,-0.041834,-0.011986,-0.006692,0.047859,0.078544,-0.003248,0.015886,-0.02215,-0.004954,-0.007736,0.014585,-0.002868,0.008488,0.004148,0.001251,0.003868,0.006 554,-0.019103,-0.043259,0.004191
CHE_LN:Aesch17,0.117238,0.164516,0.051666,-0.047804,0.08617,-0.027052,0.004465,0.005307,0.057471,0.084193,-0.001949,0.01154,-0.024975,-0.01156,-0.006515,-0.012198,-0.015516,0.013429,0.003268,-0.003502,0.007986,0.001113,-0.007641,-0.030848,-0.000239
CHE_LN:Aesch18,0.121791,0.1635,0.040352,-0.046189,0.075706,-0.023985,-0.00235,0.001154,0.051335,0.086562,0.009581,0.0134 88,-0.030178,-0.017478,-0.010179,0.006497,0.004824,-0.005828,0.00176,-0.001376,0.005366,0.004328,-0.017748,-0.031089,0.006945
CHE_LN:Aesch19,0.12862,0.183811,0.047517,-0.040052,0.083092,-0.023148,-0.006815,0.004154,0.05788,0.08802,0.005196,0.02637 7,-0.02661,-0.016515,-0.012758,0.006364,0.015516,0.005321,0.001383,0.001 376,0.013851,0.001855,-0.009244,-0.020364,-0.001317
CHE_LN:Aesch2,0.121791,0.174671,0.053174,-0.050711,0.079399,-0.032351,-0.005875,0.014769,0.068515,0.08966,-0.003573,0.014987,-0.026462,-0.006055,-0.016694,-0.006364,0.008736,0.004941,0.010056,-0.012631,-0.000873,-0.001855,-0.006779,-0.032776,-0.00491
CHE_LN:Aesch20,0.132035,0.165531,0.056191,-0.030685,0.087401,-0.02761,-0.008225,0.001615,0.06238,0.09294,-0.007957,0.012889,-0.031219,-0.012524,-0.01045,-0.009016,-0.018384,0.006208,0.006788,-0.004502,0.006114,0.012984,-0.01442,-0.042416,0.00467
CHE_LN:Aesch21,0.130897,0.17264,0.048649,-0.043282,0.088016,-0.032072,-0.01081,-0.001846,0.065448,0.096585,0.00406,0.018583,-0.033746,-0.007844,-0.014115,-0.001724,0.008084,0.012415,-0.00176,-0.009755,0.009858,0.012984,-0.008874,-0.026269,-0.00491
CHE_LN:Aesch22,0.121791,0.176702,0.054682,-0.04845,0.083092,-0.027052,-0.00893,0.000462,0.054812,0.089113,0.013316,0.0113 9,-0.035084,-0.009221,-0.013979,-0.006762,0.017341,0.001394,0.000377,-0.007754,0.01435,0.002968,-0.011216,-0.017954,0.00012
CHE_LN:Aesch23,0.125205,0.180764,0.047894,-0.041021,0.078168,-0.023427,-0.00423,0.000692,0.06238,0.088931,0.00341,0.015586 ,-0.033746,-0.015551,-0.014251,-0.007425,-0.003651,0.007601,-0.002891,-0.005002,0.008984,0.006801,-0.013557,-0.03627,-0.005987
CHE_LN:Aesch24,0.133173,0.176702,0.05242,-0.044574,0.087093,-0.022869,-0.012221,0.009461,0.053381,0.091847,0.001299,0.020 382,-0.026759,-0.004817,-0.010179,-0.003845,-0.004824,-0.002914,-0.001885,-0.008504,0.005241,0.012118,-0.01972,-0.027835,0.007305
CHE_LN:Aesch4,0.12862,0.161469,0.050911,-0.047481,0.087401,-0.0251,-0.00517,-0.000692,0.059925,0.086744,0.00065,0.013938,-0.035233,-0.011698,-0.009365,0.003315,0.002347,0.005194,-0.001885,-0.004502,0.02271,0.008532,-0.017378,-0.023859,-0.003113
CHE_LN:Aesch5,0.130897,0.161469,0.05506,-0.04845,0.085862,-0.032351,-0.00376,0.003231,0.060335,0.088749,0.001949,0.0200 82,-0.031367,-0.012248,-0.013165,-0.004773,0.00326,0.00266,0.005279,-0.004002,0.012852,-0.002473,-0.015652,-0.030486,-0.006227
CHE_LN:Aesch8,0.129758,0.175687,0.049026,-0.041667,0.089863,-0.022032,0,0.005077,0.062584,0.093852,-0.005521,0.013038,-0.04103,-0.012248,-0.015879,0.00305,0.014473,0.005321,-0.006285,-0.004252,0.013102,0.00643,-0.00912,-0.029402,-0.000599
CHE_LN:Aesch9,0.12862,0.17264,0.042992,-0.038437,0.081554,-0.01757,-0.00705,0.000462,0.061766,0.094034,0.003573,0.0112 4,-0.032408,-0.003028,-0.017915,-0.019093,-0.020731,0.007855,-0.000126,-0.014132,0.006114,0.006801,-0.020336,-0.032053,0.000239
CHE_LN:MX150,0.130897,0.173656,0.061094,-0.040375,0.077245,-0.018128,-0.012456,0.002769,0.072197,0.088385,0.004547,0.008 992,-0.027056,-0.017891,-0.005972,-0.005569,0.008866,-0.005194,-0.003771,-0.008129,0.012353,-0.006801,-0.010723,-0.022172,-0.012933
CHE_LN:MX182,0.119514,0.160454,0.055437,-0.045543,0.078476,-0.026774,-0.00188,-0.005538,0.06872,0.08802,-0.008119,0.020232,-0.032111,-0.005505,-0.002986,0.001193,0.0103,0.005448,0.000251,0.00412 7,0.017968,0.002102,-0.006039,-0.024341,0.001437
CHE_LN:MX183,0.121791,0.176702,0.04978,-0.042636,0.079707,-0.033746,0.00423,0.006923,0.06422,0.082006,-0.001299,0.020831,-0.031367,-0.015276,-0.020358,-0.003447,-0.004694,0.005954,0.010182,-0.012256,0.020214,0.00507,-0.015406,-0.026389,0.005029
CHE_LN:MX184,0.121791,0.160454,0.0445,-0.041344,0.081554,-0.026495,-0.00799,-0.003231,0.057062,0.085469,-0.008444,0.013938,-0.02557,-0.013212,-0.00475,-0.002917,0.010431,0.002407,-0.000126,-0.001376,0.013726,0.000371,-0.011216,-0.037837,0.010538
CHE_LN:MX204,0.12862,0.169593,0.037335,-0.04522,0.070167,-0.029005,-0.014336,0.001846,0.057062,0.085104,-0.000812,0.010041,-0.036273,0,-0.023887,-0.003315,0.012517,0.003674,0.003645,-0.020635,0.007861,0.003091,-0.017008,-0.015785,-0.001557
CHE_LN:MX209,0.124067,0.175687,0.044877,-0.050711,0.077861,-0.027331,-0.00705,0.008307,0.066061,0.092394,-0.002598,0.012139,-0.030029,-0.007156,0.002036,0.00716,0.007953,0.007221,0.0080 45,0.001501,0.018842,0.001731,-0.01405,-0.025305,-0.008981
CHE_LN:MX210,0.130897,0.171624,0.057699,-0.02907,0.087709,-0.027331,0.00094,-0.003923,0.06463,0.093123,-0.002273,0.015137,-0.032557,-0.015276,-0.008686,0.019623,0.026207,0.001394,0.001131,0.002 126,0.011105,0,-0.01368,-0.034101,-0.003473
CHE_LN:MX211,0.125205,0.170609,0.050911,-0.046835,0.084939,-0.033467,-0.011751,0.002538,0.063198,0.086744,0.001624,0.015 137,-0.036125,-0.013212,-0.013843,0.004773,0.005476,-0.005448,0.008547,-0.005753,0.015722,0.003586,-0.022678,-0.035909,-0.002874
CHE_LN:MX212,0.126344,0.173656,0.058077,-0.029393,0.091094,-0.028726,-0.003525,-0.001846,0.07281,0.07745,-0.002436,0.014087,-0.032557,-0.021882,-0.014794,0.017634,0.025425,0.003294,-0.000377,-0.008754,0.018343,0.005564,-0.013434,-0.039403,-0.005748
CHE_LN:MX213,0.120652,0.173656,0.056191,-0.041667,0.092325,-0.034861,-0.014571,0.004615,0.061971,0.0913,-0.006496,0.013788,-0.029583,-0.022295,-0.006107,0.013922,0.0339,-0.000507,0.000503,-0.007003,0.009733,0.001113,-0.014666,-0.020485,0.006107
CHE_LN:RA45,0.126344,0.169593,0.055437,-0.028747,0.076322,-0.023706,-0.00799,0.008538,0.048063,0.076904,0.006008,0.0284 75,-0.029881,-0.014313,-0.005293,0.00716,0.005085,0.003167,-0.001634,-0.001,0.016596,-0.001855,-0.008504,-0.037114,0.000958
CHE_LN:RA57,0.124067,0.168578,0.049026,-0.036176,0.077553,-0.039324,-0.00376,0.006461,0.05604,0.089478,0.001624,0.01154 ,-0.017542,-0.012111,-0.008958,-0.004773,0.01682,0.00114,0.009427,-0.005253,0.003244,0.002844,-0.016885,-0.03627,0.005508
CHE_LN:RA58,0.125205,0.171624,0.05242,-0.035207,0.088632,-0.026774,-0.013631,0.003923,0.066061,0.087473,-0.00341,0.017984,-0.039692,-0.018166,-0.010179,0.01127,0.024251,-0.002407,0.003142,-5e-04,0.017719,0.000618,-0.012695,-0.032535,-0.002395
CHE_LN:RA59,0.129758,0.165531,0.051288,-0.030362,0.075091,-0.020917,-0.014806,0.009692,0.065857,0.086744,-0.002598,0.018284,-0.028097,-0.011836,-0.007193,-0.001061,0.007041,0.005448,0.003771,-0.011005,0.007487,-0.001237,-0.016638,-0.032896,0.011376
CHE_LN:RA61,0.125205,0.179749,0.051666,-0.037468,0.089863,-0.028168,0.00235,0.004154,0.05788,0.084193,-0.000974,0.010491,-0.025718,-0.014038,-0.025108,-0.010475,0.005867,-0.001014,0.009804,-0.00025,0.008984,0.002844,-0.01479,-0.031812,-0.001676
CHE_LN:RA62,0.125205,0.17264,0.050157,-0.033269,0.081861,-0.022869,0.0047,0.005307,0.058085,0.084375,0.00633 3,0.01154,-0.0278,-0.015689,-0.008415,0.009149,0.025295,-0.006081,0.009553,-0.004627,0.011355,0.010634,-0.005546,-0.025064,0.000718
CHE_LN:SX10,0.121791,0.165531,0.049026,-0.045543,0.094171,-0.023706,0.00094,-0.006231,0.070356,0.087838,-0.007307,0.016335,-0.023786,-0.007156,-0.010043,0.010209,0.01695,-0.000633,0.007919,0.006253,0.005241,0.011005,-0.015652,-0.038801,0.001557
CHE_LN:SX8,0.119514,0.159438,0.058077,-0.050065,0.083708,-0.024542,-0.002585,0.006,0.048677,0.076175,0.003735,0.010191 ,-0.015461,-0.010459,-0.013843,0.006497,0.020601,0.009628,0.006788,0.000 875,0.009733,-0.004822,-0.015159,-0.035065,0.003952
CHE_MN:SX11,0.119514,0.166547,0.044877,-0.034884,0.08894,-0.033467,-0.010105,0.002077,0.059721,0.079637,0.001299,0.011 24,-0.024975,-0.010184,-0.017372,0.007955,0.023991,-0.001394,-0.003142,-0.002626,0.014849,0.00507,-0.015899,-0.029884,0.005029
CHE_MN:SX9,0.120652,0.167562,0.052043,-0.045543,0.076014,-0.018965,-0.000705,0.000692,0.066266,0.085651,0.000325,0.002 698,-0.010852,-0.009634,-0.019951,0.005967,0.022426,0.002027,0.006536,-0.005253,0.014724,0.005441,-0.015406,-0.030366,0.005748

Now, plot these Balkanites and European/non-Mongoloid steppe groups in the Balkans(most of them very recent samples too), and see where this ancestry can actually come from:


MDA_Cimmerian:cim357,0.110408,0.060932,0.043746,0. 0646,-0.005539,0.012271,0.00423,0.000231,-0.020657,-0.035172,0.006983,0.002847,-0.002973,-0.018579,0.026873,0.004243,-0.001825,0.013936,-0.01169,0.004502,-0.002246,0.006554,0.004314,0.027233,-0.006945
MDA_Cimmerian:cim358,0.106994,0.002031,0.023759,0. 033592,-0.031698,0.00251,0.004465,0.006923,-0.028633,-0.030251,-0.009581,0.001798,0,-0.018029,0.021172,0.00769,0.009518,0.002914,0.0114 39,-0.014382,-0.012603,-0.005564,-0.003821,0.011568,0.006466
MDA_Cimmerian:cim359,0.083091,-0.096475,0.061471,0.046189,-0.042777,0.005857,0.0047,0.001154,-0.010635,-0.020957,-0.018999,-0.008243,0.001338,-0.020781,0.017372,0.009016,-0.014342,0.004561,-0.003017,-0.003877,-0.020339,0.011871,-0.001109,-0.007712,-0.00479
Scythian_MDA_o:scy303,0.129758,0.131003,0.065242,0 .063308,0.037238,0.02008,0.00846,0.003461,0.007158 ,-0.007472,-0.000812,0.002398,-0.00773,-0.011147,0.015336,0.024529,0.014473,0.001267,-0.001508,0.006378,0.006988,0.001237,-0.001972,0.001084,0.008263
Scythian_MDA:scy192,0.124067,0.137096,0.015462,-0.020026,0.015695,-0.012829,0.00235,0.000692,0.001023,0.025878,0.0094 19,-0.000599,-0.006987,-0.008945,-0.013301,-0.009679,0.012908,0.004307,-0.000377,0.003502,-0.011729,0.009892,-0.004314,-0.004338,0.001796
Scythian_MDA:scy197,0.122929,0.140143,0.029415,-0.023902,0.023081,-0.012829,0.015511,-0.005307,0.00225,0.035172,-0.005846,-0.001349,-0.01115,0.000275,-0.010586,-0.0118,0.001434,-0.000127,0.013324,-0.010255,-0.004742,-0.000989,0.003328,-0.002771,-0.008981
Scythian_MDA:scy300,0.1161,0.140143,0.025644,-0.031331,0.016618,-0.005299,-0.001645,-0.007384,0.007772,0.033531,0.006983,0.006744,-0.00446,-0.000963,-0.0095,0.002254,-0.000782,0.004561,0.012318,-0.006503,-0.004118,0.012489,-0.00037,-0.000723,0.010298
Scythian_MDA:scy301,0.112685,0.087336,0.030547,0.0 1615,0.002154,0.004741,-0.001645,-0.002769,-0.017589,0.002187,-0.00682,-0.001948,-0.00773,-0.005918,0.003122,0.009281,0.008214,0.004181,0.008 799,0.009129,-0.010107,0.010758,0.006902,0.001446,0.001197
Scythian_MDA:scy305,0.118376,0.126941,0.010936,-0.014212,0.017849,-0.006693,-0.001175,-0.001154,0.00225,0.022415,-0.003897,0.007343,-0.013974,0.008257,-0.010179,0.000663,-0.005476,0.004181,0.016341,-0.008254,-0.009234,0.005812,-0.007395,0.007471,0.002754
Scythian_MDA:scy311,0.119514,0.094444,0.017348,0.0 04522,0.009232,0.009203,-0.00141,-0.008769,-0.006545,0.006925,0.005034,0.006894,-0.013825,-0.006331,0.002579,0.02254,0.010822,0.004181,0.0060 34,-0.003377,-0.009858,-0.000124,-0.005053,0.011809,-0.003473
BGR_EBA:I2165,0.126344,0.151314,0.034695,0.011628, 0.035083,0.000279,0.003055,-0.002308,0.005113,0.009294,0.002436,0.001499,-0.002825,-0.000138,-0.006243,-0.001591,-0.002217,0.00038,0.004022,0.004127,0.001123,0.0016 07,-0.006779,-0.010724,-0.004071
BGR_EBA:I2175,0.118376,0.171624,0.032809,-0.032946,0.048624,-0.01506,0.003995,0.000231,0.030065,0.046652,0.0021 11,0.005995,-0.020218,-0.002064,-0.021444,0.004906,0.014994,0.004434,0.002765,-0.007253,0.005989,-0.001607,-0.011216,-0.0194,0.000718
BGR_EBA:I2510,0.124067,0.182795,0.008297,-0.074613,0.052317,-0.04016,-0.000235,-0.007154,0.032315,0.079637,0.014615,0.013338,-0.027056,-0.004404,-0.035559,-0.011005,0.017993,0.005828,0.010433,-0.005002,-0.004118,0.013354,-0.00419,-0.007471,-0.00491
BGR_EBA:I2520,0.126344,0.148267,0.027153,-0.02261,0.050779,-0.020917,-0.00376,0,0.017998,0.036265,0.005034,0.002847,-0.009663,0.001927,-0.022122,0.014054,0.030379,0.004814,0.001006,0.004 877,0.006738,0.000866,-0.010106,-0.022292,0.002874
BGR_IA:I5769,0.126344,0.157407,0.007165,-0.051034,0.029852,-0.02259,0.00423,-0.001385,0.007772,0.032074,-0.001461,0.005695,-0.013974,-0.003028,-0.015065,-0.001458,0.01369,0.006968,0.006285,-0.014757,-0.006239,0.004699,-0.007888,0.003494,-0.008861



"Balkanites brought up by Huns" lmao. What is next "Arabs brought by Siberians"?

k, now plot these literal Huns from Bavaria and see where they plot. How do you think they wound up plotting like this without any admixture from Balkan or related groups?


DEU_MA_ACD:AED_1108,0.103579,0.010155,0.03017,-0.015827,-0.000923,-0.001952,-0.007285,0.007615,0.000614,0.005832,-0.007307,-0.009142,-0.004906,-0.003578,-0.006243,-0.005701,-0.005737,-0.003547,-0.014204,0.005002,-0.012728,-0.00779,-0.007395,-0.009158,-0.012454
DEU_MA_ACD:BIM_33,0.125205,0.141159,0.062225,0.037 791,0.028005,0.021475,0.022091,-0.006,0.008181,0.007289,-0.006983,0.014387,0.001784,0.013762,0.000136,-0.003713,-0.014603,0.001014,0.016089,0.005127,0.012104,-0.003833,0.018241,-0.012411,-0.005748
DEU_MA_ACD:NW_54,0.129758,0.141159,0.024136,-0.000646,0.032929,-0.004183,0.009635,-0.005077,0.016771,0.015855,0.00747,0.002398,-0.011893,0.010872,-0.005836,-0.01127,-0.002999,0.003927,0.016215,-0.014757,-0.000624,0.011994,0.00912,0.002771,0.00467
DEU_MA_ACD:STR_220,0.121791,0.132019,0.051288,0.04 199,0.037238,0.015618,0.013396,0.009461,-0.001636,-0.002916,-0.014128,-0.001499,-0.00996,0.002477,0.014386,-0.003845,-0.004563,-0.000127,0.001508,0.012006,0.003369,0.003957,0.002 588,0.011568,-0.003952
DEU_MA_ACD:STR_228,0.121791,0.122879,0.038466,0.02 2933,0.023081,0.00753,-0.008695,0.011999,-0.00409,0.004556,0.012179,-0.008243,0.000297,0.003303,0.009365,0.008486,-0.003781,0.004941,0.006913,0.009004,-0.001872,-0.004575,0.013188,0.00012,-0.003113
DEU_MA_ACD:STR_310,0.111547,0.13405,0.02489,0.0032 3,0.011694,-0.006136,0.00611,0.006,-0.001432,0.012028,0.000812,0.007044,-0.011744,-0.008257,-0.008415,-0.00411,0.009909,-0.006588,-0.001508,0.006753,-0.000374,0.001855,0.000493,-0.003735,-0.00479
DEU_MA_ACD:STR_328,0.104717,0.066009,0.039221,0.01 1305,0.001846,0.018965,0.001175,0.001615,-0.01493,-0.005832,-0.001299,0.006444,0.000446,-0.003991,0.012893,0.001193,0.001825,-0.005828,0.005028,0.001126,0.002121,-0.009892,-0.008134,0.004217,-0.003592
DEU_MA_ACD:STR_355,0.124067,0.137096,0.064488,0.05 4264,0.048009,0.021753,0.001175,0.002077,0.002659, 0.008018,-0.004547,0.012289,0.000446,-0.012248,0.022937,0.020949,0.007823,0.001774,0.000 754,0.011506,0.001747,0.005812,0.006039,0.01205,0. 004191

You might even be right about Western or Southern Ukraine given how southern shifted ancient Moldovans are, but the point the remains, they're still not from the region.

You are smarter than this, Stearsolina. Probably been listening too much anti-Hun non-sense from your husband. The Huns were one of the most significant groups in European history, and they were not just homogenous people who kept their genetic profile from the steppe, they adopted people from everywhere they went, including Germanics of which Gothic was likely their lingua franca, and Balkanites, literally the first place they significantly set up shop in Europe. It is now proven by a genetic paper that Visigoths brought pure Balkanites and Balkanite related ancestry(a place they passed through) with them all the way to Iberia, this is not only proven by autosomal but Y-DNA. Visigoths were a far less significant group than the Huns, and you mean to tell me this theory is nonsensical and akin to "Arabs being brought by Siberians". You should know you're wrong here solely by Token thumbing you up, a person who I had to personally convince and argue tooth and nail multiple times actual original Alpine Celts are going to be much more southern shifted and not Bell Beaker, British, Scandinavian-like, now he wants to thumb up native Moravians being N. Italian like or having ancestry that can lead to a Bulgarian-like profile. Get fucking real here.

[Aren]

Nope. There were no Romans in Czech Republic.

I don't think she was fully local. She seems to prefer an Aegan source instead of local farmers of central Europe. Much like modern day Italians who derive a significant part of their ancestry from Imperial Romans.

Target: Migration:LIB3
Distance: 3.5903% / 0.03590277
52.0 GRC_Helladic_EBA
45.0 Bell_Beaker_NLD
3.0 Levant_Sidon_MBA
0.0 Corded_Ware_CZE
0.0 HRV_Vucedol

She is really close to modern North Italians

Target: Italian_Lombardy
Distance: 1.3835% / 0.01383514
47.4 Bell_Beaker_NLD
33.0 GRC_Helladic_EBA
15.6 HRV_Vucedol
4.0 Levant_Sidon_MBA
0.0 Corded_Ware_CZE

I think she was a Roman + whatever native IE population that lived in that part of Europe(probably Celtised but not Celtic autosomally).

[vbnetkhio]

that same PCA, but for modern West and East Slavs:
<blockquote class="imgur-embed-pub" lang="en" data-id="a/Sdf4ojr" data-context="false" ><a href="//imgur.com/a/Sdf4ojr"></a></blockquote><script async src="//s.imgur.com/min/embed.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[smd555]

I've heard rumours of Korchak Proto-Slavs being Lithuanian-like, but i'm not sure about their veracity.

It seems to me that the Lithuanians themselves (as well as the Latvians and Estonians) are not homogeneous. Of course, I could be wrong, but for the same K-13 they are divided into several clusters. The first is the high component Baltic and low North-Athlantic. For example:

Population
North_Atlantic 21.4 Pct
Baltic 63.06 Pct
West_Med 6.63 Pct
West_Asian 5.71 Pct
East_Med -
Red_Sea 0.69 Pct
South_Asian 0.86 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 1.12 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 0.53 Pct
Sub-Saharan

The second cluster is the average percentage of Baltic and rather high North-Athlantic. For example:

North_Atlantic 33.41 Pct
Baltic 48.17 Pct
West_Med 4.95 Pct
West_Asian 5.43 Pct
East_Med 1.22 Pct
Red_Sea 0.99 Pct
South_Asian 1.14 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 3.46 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 1.23 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

The third cluster is like a mix of the previous ones. And there is also a cluster with an increased Mediterranean admixture - those are more similar to the average indicators of the Eastern Slavs. Therefore, it is necessary to clarify which part of the Lithuanians could have been like (or not like) the ancient Slavs.

I know only one surviving skull of the Prague-Korchak culture, found under a dwelling in the village of Rashkiv on the Dniester. It is believed that, perhaps, such a non-standard burial is associated with a domestic murder, so he was not cremated, but dismembered and secretly buried his head in a utility pit.

[Token]

... You should know you're wrong here solely by Token thumbing you up, a person who I had to personally convince and argue tooth and nail multiple times actual original Alpine Celts are going to be much more southern shifted and not Bell Beaker, British, Scandinavian-like, now he wants to thumb up native Moravians being N. Italian like or having ancestry that can lead to a Bulgarian-like profile. Get fucking real here.
False, i was among the first ones in the entire genetic community to say that Central European Celts were going to look closest to modern-day Southwestern Europeans, and there are lots of upcoming Celtic samples that will bury this subject once for all. It is not my fault if Davidski classified those Corded Ware samples incorrectly, i quickly corrected it when i became aware of the error nevertheless. You better not annoy me GynophobicPrussian, or else you are going to get your ass kicked again for the millionth time

[Dick]

GynophobicPrussian

He dislikes women?

[Lucas]

He dislikes women?

Gynecologists...

[Roy]

Nah, more likely LIB11 is a Celt mixed with Scythian (?) - like one of Hallstatt Bylany samples* - and LIB3 is a Roman settler woman.

*One of the two Hallstatt Bylany samples is eastern-shifted.

Off-topic

Czy zrobiłeś mi już imputację?

[andre]

It's POH27 just low coverage or has legit balkanic-like autosomal?

Distance to: MigrationPOH27
0.03535974 Macedonian:Northwest
0.03615853 Macedonian:East1
0.03666855 Macedonianelagonia1
0.03713859 Bulgarian
0.03770203 Romanian
0.03955573 Macedonian:East2
0.03987668 Montenegrin
0.04013261 Italian_Northeast
0.04027919 Serbian
0.04083212 Macedonian:Central
0.04100109 Macedonian:Southeast
0.04162659 Rumelia_East
0.04269357 Gagauz

[Lucas]

It's POH27 just low coverage or has legit balkanic-like autosomal?

Distance to: MigrationPOH27
0.03535974 Macedonian:Northwest
0.03615853 Macedonian:East1
0.03666855 Macedonianelagonia1
0.03713859 Bulgarian
0.03770203 Romanian
0.03955573 Macedonian:East2
0.03987668 Montenegrin
0.04013261 Italian_Northeast
0.04027919 Serbian
0.04083212 Macedonian:Central
0.04100109 Macedonian:Southeast
0.04162659 Rumelia_East
0.04269357 Gagauz

Such ancestry is also present as minor is few other POH (not in distances but in single results). I think it is legit. In Pannonia Szolad we had also Balkan-like samples.

[Roy]

Such ancestry is also present as minor is few other POH (not in distances but in single results). I think it is legit. In Pannonia Szolad we had also Balkan-like samples.

What is POH?

[Roy]

There is nothing crazy about Proto-Slavs being Lithuanian-like when even some of the Krakauer samples from Deutschland - in the western end of the Slavic expansion - are closest to Lithuanians, as shown by Lucas.

Aren't Krakauer Berg samples more Belarusian-like though?

[Roy]

Minor East Eurasian is quite common in modern Slavs. In fact without it results look somehow incomplete to me.

This is true for Ukrainians, Russians and some Balkan Slavs but not for Poles. Poles tend to score 0% of chink.

[Wend-Kruzek]

Hi I m new
very useful for me:thumb001:


My result
Distance to: LudovitKruzek
0.01999300 Migration:LIB11
0.02773860 Migration:POH11
0.02818422 Migration:POH41
0.03095577 Migration:POH36
0.03207928 Migration:POH40
0.03422090 Migration:POH3
0.03445374 Migration:POH28
0.03672942 Migration:POH13
0.03835649 Migration:POH27
0.03943019 Migration:LIB2
0.04452774 Migration:LIB3

Target: LudovitKruzek
Distance: 1.3903% / 0.01390313
22.2 Migration:LIB3
20.0 Migration:LIB11
16.8 Migration:POH41
14.0 Migration:POH13
13.4 Migration:POH28
10.0 Migration:LIB2
3.6 Migration:POH36

Nice day

[ugochaves]

Proto-Slavs were almost no different from modern Balts, or rather they were Balts. The Slavs were separated from the Baltic language by the migration of another part of the Proto-Slavs from the Balkans.

[Varda]

Early Slavs were not same as proto-Slavs. Proto Slavs probably were like modern Balts. Early Slavs were little different, they had paleo-Balkanic like influence due to ethnogenetic process in modern western Ukraine near Dacians.

[Jana]

Early Slavs were not same as proto-Slavs. Proto Slavs probably were like modern Balts. Early Slavs were little different, they had paleo-Balkanic like influence due to ethnogenetic process in modern western Ukraine near Dacians.

Correct.

[ugochaves]

Early Slavs were not same as proto-Slavs. Proto Slavs probably were like modern Balts. Early Slavs were little different, they had paleo-Balkanic like influence due to ethnogenetic process in modern western Ukraine near Dacians.
Has the Slavic language acquired any Paleobalkan features? I agree with your opinion. Some Proto-Balts mixed with Paleobalcans. I think that migrations from the Balkans to Eastern Europe and back to the Balkans were regular within the framework of the Proto-Slavic languages. Perhaps the self-consciousness of the Slavs at the early stage of their migrations was common. Therefore, people migrated until the first differences in dialects appeared and different tribes began to stand out. Then everyone has already stabilized in their own country.

[ugochaves]

Early Slavs were not same as proto-Slavs. Proto Slavs probably were like modern Balts. Early Slavs were little different, they had paleo-Balkanic like influence due to ethnogenetic process in modern western Ukraine near Dacians.
But the question of the first ancestral home of the language remains controversial. I think that the first Slavic language appeared on the territory of Russia under the influence of the minimal Balkans. Then these people began to spread their language to the west. Your version is western Ukraine?

[Varda]

But the question of the first ancestral home of the language remains controversial. I think that the first Slavic language appeared on the territory of Russia under the influence of the minimal Balkans. Then these people began to spread their language to the west. Your version is western Ukraine?

Western Ukraine is likely place of the contact zone between proto Slavs and Free Dacians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Dacians
What makes a clear difference between Slavs and Balts is haplogroup I2-Y3120. Balts are lack of that haplogroup. I2-Y3120 it seems originated in western Ukraine. Western Ukrainians and southern Belarusians have the highest amount of I2-Y3120 outside of Balkan Slavs. If i am not wrong the greatest diversity of I2-Y3120 is in western Ukraine.

[Nurzat]

Western Ukraine is likely place of the contact zone between proto Slavs and Free Dacians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Dacians
What makes a clear difference between Slavs and Balts is haplogroup I2-Y3120. Balts are lack of that haplogroup. I2-Y3120 it seems originated in western Ukraine. Western Ukrainians and southern Belarusians have the highest amount of I2-Y3120 outside of Balkan Slavs. If i am not wrong the greatest diversity of I2-Y3120 is in western Ukraine.

and historical Moldova region (northeast Romania and Rep. Moldova):

https://www.poreklo.rs/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/haplogrupa-I2-Y3120.jpg


Slavic R1a is also heavily present in Moldova region in Romania, I thought this is from East Slavs and I2 from Trypillians (Neolithic, similar to Sardinians and prehistoric Anatolians)

[Katarzyna]

I must honestly say that southern Lithuanians/Belarusians make very good Proto Slav models. Because unlike for example Poles they do not have any Germanic admixture or Balkanic admixture which is common among some Ukrainians. They have no Finnic input either, unlike Latvians, Estonians or Russians.

[Jana]

I must honestly say that southern Lithuanians/Belarusians make very good Proto Slav models. Because unlike for example Poles they do not have any Germanic admixture or Balkanic admixture which is common among some Ukrainians. They have no Finnic input either, unlike Latvians, Estonians or Russians.

True. Lithuanians and Belarusians are only pure Balto-Slavic ethnicities in Europe.

[ugochaves]

Western Ukraine is likely place of the contact zone between proto Slavs and Free Dacians https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Dacians
What makes a clear difference between Slavs and Balts is haplogroup I2-Y3120. Balts are lack of that haplogroup. I2-Y3120 it seems originated in western Ukraine. Western Ukrainians and southern Belarusians have the highest amount of I2-Y3120 outside of Balkan Slavs. If i am not wrong the greatest diversity of I2-Y3120 is in western Ukraine.
But the Baltic tribes did not live in the west of Ukraine. Yukhnovskaya, Milogradskaya, Dnepro-Dvinskaya, Verkhneokskaya, Moshinskaya cultures are Belorusskiya, the center and east of Ukraine, the west and the center of Russia. The Slavs could get Baltic influence only from these cultures. Among eastern Ukrainians, Belarusians and especially Russians, this influence reaches 80%. And the Balkan contribution is very small.

[Varda]

I must honestly say that southern Lithuanians/Belarusians make very good Proto Slav models. Because unlike for example Poles they do not have any Germanic admixture or Balkanic admixture which is common among some Ukrainians. They have no Finnic input either, unlike Latvians, Estonians or Russians.

When you mentioned Balkan admixture in some Ukrainians, some of these girls from Odesa score sognificant Balkan and one high Greek https://youtu.be/RmUc7hzsXmI?t=380

[Jana]

But the Baltic tribes did not live in the west of Ukraine. Yukhnovskaya, Milogradskaya, Dnepro-Dvinskaya, Verkhneokskaya, Moshinskaya cultures are Belorusskiya, the center and east of Ukraine, the west and the center of Russia. The Slavs could get Baltic influence only from these cultures. Among eastern Ukrainians, Belarusians and especially Russians, this influence reaches 80%. And the Balkan contribution is very small.

Slavs are basically offshot of Balts that expanded and mutated while assimilating many Balts. Balts are OGs

[Katarzyna]

When you mentioned Balkan admixture in some Ukrainians, some of these girls from Odesa score sognificant Balkan and some even Greek https://youtu.be/RmUc7hzsXmI?t=380

Exactly and many even look Balkanic. Zelensky is the perfect example for it. That is why Ukrainians are not suitable for Proto-Slav models.

[ugochaves]

True. Lithuanians and Belarusians are only pure Balto-Slavic ethnicities in Europe.

There are 0% Slavs among Lithuanians. How can they be Baltic Slavs? This is an isolate that has nothing to do even with the main ancient Baltic population. The main share of Baltic culture falls on Belarus, Eastern Ukraine and Russia. Russians west of Moscow, western and southwestern Russians are the only Slavs who do not have any admixtures. Belarusians are very Baltic people. Ukrainians have a significant Balkan contribution.

[Katarzyna]

There are 0% Slavs among Lithuanians. How can they be Baltic Slavs? This is an isolate that has nothing to do even with the main ancient Baltic population. The main share of Baltic culture falls on Belarus, Eastern Ukraine and Russia. Russians west of Moscow, western and southwestern Russians are the only Slavs who do not have any admixtures. Belarusians are very Baltic people. Ukrainians have a significant Balkan contribution.

Southern Lithuanians are genetically very close to Belarusians, you can not tell them apart when you see their DNA results. Northern Lithuanians, close to Latvia, on the other hand are usually indeed different and have some Finnic DNA same as Estonians.

[Jana]

There are 0% Slavs among Lithuanians. How can they be Baltic Slavs? This is an isolate that has nothing to do even with the main ancient Baltic population. The main share of Baltic culture falls on Belarus, Eastern Ukraine and Russia. Russians west of Moscow, western and southwestern Russians are the only Slavs who do not have any admixtures. Belarusians are very Baltic people. Ukrainians have a significant Balkan contribution.

Balto-Slavs were same thing. Lithuanians are not pure Balts however, they have Polish input. And they aren't an isolate.
southern Russians are not pure Balto-Slavs, they are not native to the steppe and descend from other regions.

[Nurzat]

Exactly and many even look Balkanic. Zelensky is the perfect example for it. That is why Ukrainians are not suitable for Proto-Slav models.

Zelensky is ethnically Jewish and his native language is Russian, this is widely known

[Varda]

Exactly and many even look Balkanic. Zelensky is the perfect example for it. That is why Ukrainians are not suitable for Proto-Slav models.

Zelensky is a Jew.
Russian empire colonized Odesa with various people after took city from the Ottomans in the late 18th century, except Great and Little Russians some Balkanites settled there. In village Serbka in Odesa oblast settled Serbs from Montenegro and Herzegovina in early 19th century (https://trip-suggest.com/ukraine/odessa/serbka).
In central Ukraine and Donbass Balkan input is from Serbs and other Balkanites who settled in New Serbia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Serbia_(historical_province)) and Slavo-Serbia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavo-Serbia) in 18th century.
In western Ukraine Balkan influence is mostly from Vlachs who settled there in the late middle age. Hutsuls, Boykos, Lemkos, Rusyns etc. were created by mixing of late medieval Vlach migrants and native Slavs of western Ukraine.

[Katarzyna]

Balto-Slavs were same thing. Lithuanians are not pure Balts however, they have Polish input. And they aren't an isolate.
southern Russians are not pure Balto-Slavs, they are not native to the steppe and descend from other regions.

I would rather say that Poles, especially those who come from the east or were deported from former Polish territories (Curzon zone) have Lithuanian input. Because when you compare their distance to someone like me for instance, the Southern Lithuanians get extremely close to me. That is because my family comes partly from the former Polish Eastern territories. While other Poles without Eastern ancestry do not match highly with Lithuanians.

https://i.ibb.co/Tt9YLz0/IMG-2277.jpg (https://ibb.co/891NcFx)

[ugochaves]

Southern Lithuanians are genetically very close to Belarusians, you can not tell them apart when you see their DNA results. Northern Lithuanians, close to Latvia, on the other hand are usually indeed different and have some Finnic DNA same as Estonians.
Belarusians are close to Lithuanians because they live nearby and have mixed with them. How did it happen that my Russian wife and user Russki, who come from central Russia and are geographically very far from Lithuanians, are as close to Lithuanians as Belarusians, while having 0% Finno-Ugric?
https://i.ibb.co/sWZ3VWv/lr.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

[Katarzyna]

Belarusians are close to Lithuanians because they live nearby and have mixed with them. How did it happen that my Russian wife and user Russki, who come from central Russia and are geographically very far from Lithuanians, are as close to Lithuanians as Belarusians, while having 0% Finno-Ugric?
https://i.ibb.co/sWZ3VWv/lr.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

Oh that’s very interesting that you are also close to them. Show me how close you are to that Lithuanian sample:

Lithuanian_PA:LTG-804,0.133173,0.123895,0.078441,0.064277,0.037545,0 .025379,0.011045,0.014307,-0.002045,-0.024237,-0.004872,-0.013188,0.01888,0.022432,-0.012622,0.000663,0.007041,0.003167,0.004777,0.004 377,-0.009608,-0.004822,0.013311,-0.007591,0.00491

[Abriekman]

When you mentioned Balkan admixture in some Ukrainians, some of these girls from Odesa score sognificant Balkan and one high Greek https://youtu.be/RmUc7hzsXmI?t=380

MyHeritage is bullshit, they can be 0% Balkanic in reality

[ugochaves]

Balto-Slavs were same thing. Lithuanians are not pure Balts however, they have Polish input. And they aren't an isolate.
southern Russians are not pure Balto-Slavs, they are not native to the steppe and descend from other regions.
1.Southern Russians have a small Balkan contribution, as do Ukrainians. This shifts them slightly to the west. Residents of Central Russia are deprived of both Finnish and Balkan DNA. Either they are assimilated Balts without admixture of Slavs, or the Proto-Slavs. It needs to be explained somehow. It is also necessary to explain the general shift of Russians towards the Balts in relation to Ukrainians.
2.Look at the G25 map. Where are the Poles and where are the Lithuanians? The Lithuanians have no Polish admixture. This is a complete isolate on genetics. Like Asian ngannasans.

[ugochaves]

Oh that’s very interesting that you are also close to them. Show me how close you are to that Lithuanian sample:

Lithuanian_PA:LTG-804,0.133173,0.123895,0.078441,0.064277,0.037545,0 .025379,0.011045,0.014307,-0.002045,-0.024237,-0.004872,-0.013188,0.01888,0.022432,-0.012622,0.000663,0.007041,0.003167,0.004777,0.004 377,-0.009608,-0.004822,0.013311,-0.007591,0.00491they look like Belarusians, some kind of southern
https://i.ibb.co/C2rn3kS/pa.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

[Katarzyna]

they look like Belarusians, some kind of southern
https://i.ibb.co/C2rn3kS/pa.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

I do not match with any Pole on my PCA. All my PCA-neighbors are Ukrainian, Belarusian or Russians from Oryol and Smolensk.

https://i.ibb.co/jfqCMxN/IMG-2287.jpg (https://ibb.co/XL6nsdQ)
https://i.ibb.co/KjgSyTN/IMG-2285.png (https://ibb.co/HDy3g5N)
https://i.ibb.co/vs9twG6/IMG-2284.png (https://ibb.co/k3ZdHfs)

[ugochaves]

I do not match with any Pole on my PCA. All my PCA-neighbors are Ukrainian, Belarusian or Russians from Oryol and Smolensk.

Yes, you look more like a Proto-Slavic than a Pole.

[Jana]

I would rather say that Poles, especially those who come from the east or were deported from former Polish territories (Curzon zone) have Lithuanian input. Because when you compare their distance to someone like me for instance, the Southern Lithuanians get extremely close to me. That is because my family comes partly from the former Polish Eastern territories. While other Poles without Eastern ancestry do not match highly with Lithuanians.

https://i.ibb.co/Tt9YLz0/IMG-2277.jpg (https://ibb.co/891NcFx)

true, it goes both ways. Masurian Poles are very Baltic iirc.

[Jana]

1.Southern Russians have a small Balkan contribution, as do Ukrainians. This shifts them slightly to the west. Residents of Central Russia are deprived of both Finnish and Balkan DNA. Either they are assimilated Balts without admixture of Slavs, or the Proto-Slavs. It needs to be explained somehow. It is also necessary to explain the general shift of Russians towards the Balts in relation to Ukrainians.
2.Look at the G25 map. Where are the Poles and where are the Lithuanians? The Lithuanians have no Polish admixture. This is a complete isolate on genetics. Like Asian ngannasans.

than why are Lithuanians more southern than Bronze Age Balts?

[Jana]

I do not match with any Pole on my PCA. All my PCA-neighbors are Ukrainian, Belarusian or Russians from Oryol and Smolensk.

https://i.ibb.co/jfqCMxN/IMG-2287.jpg (https://ibb.co/XL6nsdQ)
https://i.ibb.co/KjgSyTN/IMG-2285.png (https://ibb.co/HDy3g5N)
https://i.ibb.co/vs9twG6/IMG-2284.png (https://ibb.co/k3ZdHfs)

you are almost entirely Slavic genetically. But Polish user Lucas is too. He clusters almost same as Russians from Smolensk (who are Belarusian like) from what I have seen, and he isn't even an eastern Pole.

[Jana]

1.Southern Russians have a small Balkan contribution, as do Ukrainians. This shifts them slightly to the west. Residents of Central Russia are deprived of both Finnish and Balkan DNA. Either they are assimilated Balts without admixture of Slavs, or the Proto-Slavs. It needs to be explained somehow. It is also necessary to explain the general shift of Russians towards the Balts in relation to Ukrainians.

Central Russia had lots of Baltic tribes. I guess central Russians are pure Balto-Slavs too.

[sage]

and historical Moldova region (northeast Romania and Rep. Moldova):

https://www.poreklo.rs/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/haplogrupa-I2-Y3120.jpg


Slavic R1a is also heavily present in Moldova region in Romania, I thought this is from East Slavs and I2 from Trypillians (Neolithic, similar to Sardinians and prehistoric Anatolians)
R1a is not that heavily present in Romanian Moldova but I2a is.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21513-Haplogroup-Distribution-in-Romania-and-Republic-of-Moldova/page12

[ugochaves]

Central Russia had lots of Baltic tribes. I guess central Russians are pure Balto-Slavs too.
Did you dye your hair blonde? Now you are very Balto-Slavic:D

[Jana]

Did you dye your hair blonde? Now you are very Balto-Slavic:D

Yes, I did. Because I am on vacation until September and I have lot of gray hair which is much more visible with darker hair. I have to dye hair every month, and usually do to my natural lightbrown, but since I won't be able to dye for 2 months, I went for blond so gray hair coming out won't be visible.

I have gray hair since my accident at age 17.

[majevica]

True. Lithuanians and Belarusians are only pure Balto-Slavic ethnicities in Europe.

Makes sense, I get modeled with Lithuanians very often, especially with those from South Aukštaitija.

[Russki]

Central Russians have nothing to do with Lithuanians, except Slavic-admixed samples like Lithuanian_PA, Lithuanian_VA and Lithuanian_RA.

The vast majority get either Belarusians, Ukrainians, Poles, Estonians or Southwestern Finns in their closest pop.


https://sun9-15.userapi.com/impg/GI9qhOi5g-n3q_WndQAUJnwYUje8tqHfRO8K1A/W6ic1S-sP6g.jpg?size=640x586&quality=95&sign=19db70629579b5053ca3065a961e63e2&type=album



Belarusians are close to Lithuanians because they live nearby and have mixed with them. How did it happen that my Russian wife and user Russki, who come from central Russia and are geographically very far from Lithuanians, are as close to Lithuanians as Belarusians, while having 0% Finno-Ugric?
https://i.ibb.co/sWZ3VWv/lr.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)


Lithuanian_VA is a Slavic-admixed sample which is by no means representative of the Lithuanian average.

You can easily guess which of the 3 Baltic States is the closest to you, to your wife, and literally every Russian except Smolensk, Belgorod and Voronezh.


https://sun9-27.userapi.com/impg/M5rgRtw6zgced_267uJiQMalDr3rv__Menb0oA/x8bXrsKYIco.jpg?size=450x550&quality=95&sign=a4e2b31a22a1f5d98ebc2ea734999a25&type=album

https://sun9-42.userapi.com/impg/zZSnKl0IT58J1PgzErok7dbfL9K42mjI2V152Q/gN5hZhviIrs.jpg?size=450x550&quality=95&sign=2876f7f2310b524237087d221972d105&type=album


https://i.imgur.com/ZiVsnuA.png

[ugochaves]

Central Russians have nothing to do with Lithuanians, except Slavic-admixed samples like Lithuanian_PA, Lithuanian_VA and Lithuanian_RA.

The vast majority get either Belarusians, Ukrainians, Poles, Estonians or Southwestern Finns in their closest pop.

Lithuanian_VA is a Slavic-admixed sample which is by no means representative of the Lithuanian average.

You can easily guess which of the 3 Baltic States is the closest to you, to your wife, and literally every Russian except Smolensk, Belgorod and Voronezh.

I have already said that the Balts are isolates. And Slavs (except Belarusians) have nothing to do with them personally. However, you must agree that your coordinates, like those of Belarusians, are directed towards the Baltic States, and not to the west or to the Finns, although you are from central Russia (closer to the southeast), and Belarusians border Lithuania ( they are obviously mixed). I have 2 explanations for this. Or the Central Russian people were formed on the basis of the Balts of central Russia. Or the first Slavs were like you.

[Katarzyna]

Central Russians have nothing to do with Lithuanians, except Slavic-admixed samples like Lithuanian_PA, Lithuanian_VA and Lithuanian_RA.

The vast majority get either Belarusians, Ukrainians, Poles, Estonians or Southwestern Finns in their closest pop.


https://sun9-15.userapi.com/impg/GI9qhOi5g-n3q_WndQAUJnwYUje8tqHfRO8K1A/W6ic1S-sP6g.jpg?size=640x586&quality=95&sign=19db70629579b5053ca3065a961e63e2&type=album





Lithuanian_VA is a Slavic-admixed sample which is by no means representative of the Lithuanian average.
]

It really doesn’t have to represent all Lithuanians. We never claimed that all Lithuanians represent the Proto-Slavs. The ones in the North mixed with Finno-Ugric people definitively do not while the Southern Lithuanians close to Belarus make good candidates. For the reasons listened before to check the Slavicness of a Person those Slavic Southern Lithuanian samples are preferred over Poles and Ukrainians because Lithuanians were isolated for a long time and therefore will not be contaminated with other ethnic groups such as Germanics, Celts or Balkanites.

For example: many Westerners when they take a dna test and have a good distance to Poles “Hurray, I matched with a Pole! I am actually a Slav” Probably you are not but a lot of Poles (unless they are from the former Eastern territories expelled after WW2 or from current Eastern Poland) have around 10-15% Germanic DNA. Some even more, up to 25%. So it is not the Westener having Slavic dna but the Pole having Germanic input!

Once the Westener gets matched to a southern Lithuanian or Belarusian sample the disappointment begins cause then the match drop from very high to zero! Then you can see who the real Slavs are ;)

[Russki]

It really doesn’t have to represent all Lithuanians. We never claimed that all Lithuanians represent the Proto-Slavs. The ones in the North mixed with Finno-Ugric people definitively do not while the Southern Lithuanians close to Belarus make good candidates. For the reasons listened before to check the Slavicness of a Person those Slavic Southern Lithuanian samples are preferred over Poles and Ukrainians because Lithuanians were isolated for a long time and therefore will not be contaminated with other ethnic groups such as Germanics, Celts or Balkanites.


Nobody in Lithuania represents Proto-Slavs, even if the ancestors of Slavs were similar to Southern Lithuanians before absorbing SW-shifted admixture. It is completely plausible that Proto-Slavs would be 5-10% Germanic, 5-10% Celtic, 5-10% Illyrian, 5-10% Thracian, since all these ethnicities are older than Slavs. By the time the Proto-Slavic languages were spoken, the Slavs were similar exactly to modern Poles and Ukrainians (except Kashubians, Silesians, Gorals, Hutsuls).



For example: many Westerners when they take a dna test and have a good distance to Poles “Hurray, I matched with a Pole! I am actually a Slav” Probably you are not but a lot of Poles (unless they are from the former Eastern territories expelled after WW2 or from current Eastern Poland) have around 10-15% Germanic DNA. Some even more, up to 25%. So it is not the Westener having Slavic dna but the Pole having Germanic input!


It depends.

rothaer has a large collection of coordinates of Polish and Ukrainian users from TA and Anthrogenica and they have almost full overlap.

The most Western-shifted Poles approach Slovaks.


https://i.imgur.com/z2gbZrL.jpeg



Once the Westener gets matched to a southern Lithuanian or Belarusian sample the disappointment begins cause then the match drop from very high to zero! Then you can see who the real Slavs are ;)


No, it only means that Balts are even more North-East shifted than Slavs.



I have already said that the Balts are isolates. And Slavs (except Belarusians) have nothing to do with them personally. However, you must agree that your coordinates, like those of Belarusians, are directed towards the Baltic States, and not to the west or to the Finns, although you are from central Russia (closer to the southeast), and Belarusians border Lithuania ( they are obviously mixed). I have 2 explanations for this. Or the Central Russian people were formed on the basis of the Balts of central Russia. Or the first Slavs were like you.


My closest pops are Slavs, Estonians, then Balts.


https://sun9-1.userapi.com/impg/RXpLe9dYQjlj_wsnTfnb0ccvNaxBeeUtn8HLVA/V0a5Pr3Ii8M.jpg?size=420x540&quality=95&sign=911fbd2790171440450858ccdbbffec0&type=album

[cass]

Just compare medieval to modern samples. Volhynia is the best fit.

Distance to: DEU_MA_Krakauer_Berg
0.01211624 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.01454201 Polish
0.01511282 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.01551203 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.01700836 Belarusian
0.01743853 Russian_Smolensk
0.01745906 Russian_Voronez
0.01788332 Lithuanian_PA
0.01894534 Russian_Kursk
0.01902267 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.01961774 Russian_Belgorod
0.01991328 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.02005486 Russian_Pskov
0.02029064 Lithuanian_VA
0.02084156 Russian_Kaluga
0.02113712 Russian_Orel
0.02140619 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.02247759 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.02522137 Russian_Ryazan
0.02622738 Polish_Kashubian
0.02712591 Russian_Tver
0.02804172 Lithuanian_RA
0.02927347 Slovakian
0.02935159 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.03007594 Lithuanian_VZ


Distance to: Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG:Sunghir6_noUDG.SG
0.01749728 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.01754522 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.01955462 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.02000654 Russian_Orel
0.02005662 Russian_Voronez
0.02063079 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.02082232 Polish
0.02104055 Russian_Belgorod
0.02108534 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.02199605 Russian_Smolensk
0.02310641 Russian_Kursk
0.02319629 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.02341570 Belarusian
0.02464740 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.02487812 Russian_Ryazan
0.02574823 Russian_Kaluga
0.02753394 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.02895065 Russian_Tver
0.02902256 Lithuanian_PA
0.03039210 Moldovan_o
0.03115073 Russian_Pskov
0.03117608 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.03271180 Polish_Kashubian
0.03298109 Lithuanian_VA
0.03311748 Slovakian


Distance to: Ukraine_Medieval.SG:VK541_noUDG.SG
0.02192722 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.02230488 Russian_Belgorod
0.02291756 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.02386634 Moldovan_o
0.02399320 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.02547469 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.02576030 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.02588570 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.02637512 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.02638639 Polish
0.02681308 Russian_Orel
0.02731233 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.02748628 Russian_Voronez
0.02888361 Russian_Kursk
0.02935191 Russian_Ryazan
0.02955252 Russian_Smolensk
0.03032190 Slovakian
0.03182561 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03271743 Polish_Silesian
0.03274379 Belarusian
0.03305249 Russian_Kaluga
0.03591998 Russian_Tver
0.03702515 Lithuanian_PA
0.03836190 Russian_Pskov
0.03872845 Czech


Distance to: Czech_Medieval:I20515
0.03034294 Belarusian
0.03046002 Lithuanian_PA
0.03098677 Lithuanian_VA
0.03164812 Russian_Smolensk
0.03206577 Russian_Pskov
0.03283305 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.03326725 Lithuanian_RA
0.03377611 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03378121 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.03403008 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.03525049 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03539204 Russian_Voronez
0.03570187 Russian_Kursk
0.03588405 Russian_Kaluga
0.03601777 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.03720160 Polish
0.03734718 Estonian
0.03757556 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03817642 Russian_Orel
0.03830995 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.03865516 Latvian
0.03921249 Russian_Belgorod
0.03934992 Russian_Ryazan
0.04062300 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.04138169 Russian_Tver


Distance to: POL_Krakow_MA
0.05103732 Polish_Kashubian
0.05475506 German_East
0.05484794 Polish
0.05490668 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.05558463 Czech
0.05631633 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.05639297 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.05745770 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.05759455 German_Hamburg
0.05797862 Russian_Orel
0.05824395 Hungarian
0.05839155 Polish_Silesian
0.05841147 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.05852685 Russian_Voronez
0.05853970 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.05959050 Russian_Smolensk
0.05970650 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.06077562 Russian_Kursk
0.06082495 Russian_Ryazan
0.06112327 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.06124961 Moldovan_o
0.06125955 Russian_Belgorod
0.06137533 Belarusian
0.06161230 Swedish
0.06186629 German_Erlangen

Distance to: BosniaHerzegovina_Medieval:I19561
0.02854812 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.03218615 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.03432099 Polish
0.03500256 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.03624666 Russian_Orel
0.03682668 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.03688700 Polish_Kashubian
0.03734860 Russian_Smolensk
0.03747842 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.03819716 Czech
0.03827041 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.03881000 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.03900682 German_East
0.03918238 Russian_Voronez
0.03987598 Belarusian
0.04029468 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.04065924 Slovenian
0.04091330 Russian_Belgorod
0.04110137 Polish_Silesian
0.04136498 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.04148666 Moldovan_o
0.04196042 Russian_Kursk
0.04203596 Hungarian
0.04315663 Russian_Ryazan
0.04380279 Croatian


Distance to: Baltic_LTU_Marvele
0.02444730 Latvian
0.02464101 Lithuanian_PZ
0.02705312 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03325265 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03529121 Lithuanian_RA
0.03991920 Lithuanian_VA
0.04226011 Estonian
0.04472446 Lithuanian_PA
0.04493172 Russian_Pskov
0.05021673 Belarusian
0.05525536 Russian_Smolensk
0.05593704 Russian_Kaluga
0.05894753 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.06002827 Russian_Tver
0.06031584 Russian_Kursk
0.06092072 Russian_Voronez
0.06141706 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.06258059 Russian_Orel
0.06281092 Polish_Kashubian
0.06317524 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.06322833 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.06370501 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.06536406 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.06545965 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.06563959 Russian_Belgorod

[ugochaves]

No, it only means that Balts are even more North-East shifted than Slavs.
My closest pops are Slavs, Estonians, then Balts.

Estonians have nothing to do with Finno-Ugric genetics. This is a mixture of Balts and Germans + additional hunter-gatherers with almost no Urals. Therefore, in your DNA, this proportion is perceived by the calculator as close.

It is the additional eastern hunter-gatherer that distinguishes Russians from other Europeans. Who was he in? I'm sure it was the Balts (not the Baltic)

[Jana]

These samples aren't pure nor early medieval. Run Avar Szolad 2, that's a good one. Polish Cedynia VA too.

[Russki]

Estonians have nothing to do with Finno-Ugric genetics.


They do, just check the distance to Siberians.

It is a huge contrast to Lithuanians who have the lowest affinity to Siberians in all of Europe.


https://i.imgur.com/Scljucf.png

[cass]

These samples aren't pure nor early medieval. Run Avar Szolad 2, that's a good one. Polish Cedynia VA too.

However, these are not samples from the center of the Slavic cradle

Distance to: HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1
0.01632739 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.01741841 Czech
0.01930606 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.01979615 Polish
0.02217270 German_East
0.02419708 Slovenian
0.02429540 Polish_Silesian
0.02442973 Slovakian
0.02585855 Hungarian
0.02615073 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.02697838 Croatian
0.02712602 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.02736802 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.02779788 Moldovan_o
0.02785824 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.02950396 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.02967903 Russian_Belgorod
0.03033997 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.03078686 Russian_Voronez
0.03100343 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03196753 Russian_Orel
0.03221509 German_Hamburg
0.03244643 Russian_Smolensk
0.03284995 Polish_Kashubian
0.03384405 German_Erlangen


Distance to: HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2
0.02401592 Belarusian
0.02524614 Russian_Smolensk
0.02650733 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.02721057 Russian_Voronez
0.02730409 Lithuanian_PA
0.02731998 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.02750907 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.02817900 Polish
0.02830219 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.02922248 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.02982627 Russian_Orel
0.03048300 Russian_Kursk
0.03071559 Russian_Kaluga
0.03114126 Lithuanian_VA
0.03135019 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.03144784 Russian_Belgorod
0.03170504 Russian_Pskov
0.03306038 Polish_Kashubian
0.03452543 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03506264 Russian_Ryazan
0.03527703 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03533930 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.03553869 Lithuanian_RA
0.03639441 Russian_Tver
0.03773285 Estonian


Distance to: Polish_MA:Cedynia_VA:VK212
0.02470261 Belarusian
0.02643228 Russian_Smolensk
0.02828923 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.02905136 Lithuanian_PA
0.03049418 Lithuanian_VA
0.03089218 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.03101882 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.03103757 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03144912 Russian_Pskov
0.03156080 Russian_Voronez
0.03170905 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.03176821 Lithuanian_RA
0.03382922 Russian_Kaluga
0.03425558 Russian_Orel
0.03518435 Russian_Belgorod
0.03518652 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03536528 Russian_Kursk
0.03542572 Polish
0.03628007 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.03686355 Cossack_Ukrainian
0.03710095 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03830940 Polish_Kashubian
0.03881099 Russian_Ryazan
0.03987886 Latvian
0.04022591 Estonian

[Jana]

^^^true, but they are very "pure". Thanks for running.

[ugochaves]

They do, just check the distance to Siberians.

It is a huge contrast to Lithuanians who have the lowest affinity to Siberians in all of Europe.

Lithuanians are absolutely not pure Balts. They had contact with the Slavs. Latvians are the purest Balts. And the most isolated. They don't have Siberia. Estonians have Siberia on a par with Belarusians and southern Russians, that is, almost none. But Estonians have an extra EHG. This brings them closer to the Russian center. No more. We had no direct contact with the Estonians, only a vast substratum.

[Katarzyna]

Here are mine

https://i.ibb.co/r3tB2d7/IMG-2293.jpg (https://ibb.co/ZSJQz2L)


And here the matches of a Lithuanian sample

https://i.ibb.co/zbdB4CD/IMG-2294.jpg (https://ibb.co/y52ZQK7)

We have in our Top 5 list 4 countries in common. This Lithuanian sample is closer to Slavs than their own Baltic fellows (Latvian and Estonian). That’s the Lithuanians I am talking about the whole time.

[Russki]

Lithuanians are absolutely not pure Balts. They had contact with the Slavs. Latvians are the purest Balts. And the most isolated. They don't have Siberia.


Lithuanians and Latvians are extremely close to each other, Polish-admixed Lithuanians don't represent half of the country.



Estonians have Siberia on a par with Belarusians and southern Russians, that is, almost none.


This map should help.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/East_Eurasian_admixture_in_Europe.png



But Estonians have an extra EHG. This brings them closer to the Russian center. No more. We had no direct contact with the Estonians, only a vast substratum.


The amount of Siberian admixture in Russians is closer to Estonians than to any Finno-Ugric tribe Russians actually had contact with, such as Mordvins.

If the Mordvins had less Siberian, Russians would be closer to them.

[cass]

^^^true, but they are very "pure". Thanks for running.

Not all Slavs took part in the conquest of the Balkans.

The History of Theophylact Simocatta (14.08.590–13.08.591),
Emperor Maurice on the Danube frontier:
(10) On the following day three men, Sclavenes by race, who were not wearing any iron or military equipment, were captured by the emperor's bodyguards. Lyres were their baggage, and they were not
carrying anything else at all. (11) And so the emperor enquired what was their nation, where was their allotted abode, and the cause of their presence in the Roman lands. (12) They replied that they were
Sclavenes by nation and that they lived at the boundary of the western ocean;10 the Chagan had dispatched ambassadors to their parts to levy a military force and had lavished many gifts on their nation's rulers;11 (13) and so they accepted the gifts but refused him the alliance, asserting that the length of the journey daunted them, while they sent back to the Chagan for the purpose of making a defence these same men who had been captured; they had completed the journey in fifteen months; but the Chagan had forgotten the law of ambassadors and had decreed a ban on their return; (14) since they had heard that the Roman nation was much the most famous, as far as can be told, for wealth and clemency, they had exploited the opportunity and retired to Thrace; (15) they carried lyres since it was not their practice to gird weapons on their bodies, because their country was ignorant of iron and thereby provided them with a peaceful and troublefree life; they made music on lyres because they did not know how to sound forth on trumpets. For they would quite reasonably say that for those who had no knowledge of warfare, musical pursuits were uncultivated,12 as it
were. (16) And so, as a result of their words, the emperor marvelled at their tribe and judged that those same barbarians who had encountered him were worthy of hospitality; in amazement at the size of their bodies and the nobility of their limbs, he sent these men under escort to Heracleia.

https://kupdf.net/queue/the-history-of-theophylact-simocatta_58ca71f2dc0d60d54a33903a_pdf?queue_id=-1&x=1591306758&z=MTk0LjQ5LjEwNS41OQ==

[ugochaves]

Lithuanians and Latvians are extremely close to each other, Polish-admixed Lithuanians don't represent half of the country.





This map should help.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/East_Eurasian_admixture_in_Europe.png





The amount of Siberian admixture in Russians is closer to Estonians than to any Finno-Ugric tribe Russians actually had contact with, such as Mordvins.

If the Mordvins had less Siberian, Russians would be closer to them.

This card does nothing. I used a lot of calculators and saw maps like this when you were a kid to understand the population of Russia. My conclusion remains the same - central Russia is the source of the first Slavs.

[Russki]

My conclusion remains the same - central Russia is the source of the first Slavs.


I'm pretty sure I understand these things better than you.

My conclusion is that the homeland of Slavs is Western Ukraine.

[cass]

I'm pretty sure I understand these things better than you.

My conclusion is that the homeland of Slavs is Western Ukraine.
In my opinion, they were already different from the Balts before reaching Ukraine

Distance to: Trzciniec_Mierzanowice
0.03307959 Estonian
0.03564153 Russian_Pskov
0.03818377 Lithuanian_PA
0.03923330 Lithuanian_VA
0.04134975 Russian_Kursk
0.04178906 Russian_Tver
0.04181617 Russian_Kaluga
0.04182882 Belarusian
0.04194785 Lithuanian_VZ
0.04235532 Latvian
0.04239204 Lithuanian_PZ
0.04242576 Lithuanian_SZ
0.04346050 Ingrian
0.04352420 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.04368300 Polish
0.04400377 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.04429568 Russian_Smolensk
0.04447423 Lithuanian_RA
0.04464369 Russian_Voronez
0.04501417 Polish_Kashubian
0.04544775 Russian_Ryazan
0.04557846 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.04560697 Russian_Orel
0.04584728 Finnish_Southeast
0.04629490 Ukrainian_Chernihiv

Target: Trzciniec_Mierzanowice
Distance: 2.0152% / 0.02015227
55.6 Latvian
32.6 Icelandic
9.6 Finnish_East
0.8 Sudanese
0.6 Ngumba
0.6 Ror
0.2 Surui


Trzciniec_Mierzanowice,0.1223861,0.1225197,0.08033 84,0.087056,0.0399222,0.0330121,0.0052641,0.010632 7,-0.0008653,-0.0276466,-0.0006396,-0.004828,0.0081146,0.0068726,0.0065313,0.0078656,0 .0015044,-0.000039,0.0014368,0.0067552,0.0040909,-0.0006031,0.0009955,-0.0093247,-0.0006484

[ugochaves]

I'm pretty sure I understand these things better than you.

My conclusion is that the homeland of Slavs is Western Ukraine.
There is not a single Baltic culture in Western Ukraine. Russians are mostly descendants of the Balts. You just want to be closer to Cassie and please the Croatian. This is not very fair of you.

[Voskos]

@ugochaves, how you have 3 different faces, two different religious affiliations, a couple of different passports and several countries of origin? Respect

[Melkiirs]

Lithuanians are absolutely not pure Balts. They had contact with the Slavs. Latvians are the purest Balts. And the most isolated. They don't have Siberia. Estonians have Siberia on a par with Belarusians and southern Russians, that is, almost none. But Estonians have an extra EHG. This brings them closer to the Russian center. No more. We had no direct contact with the Estonians, only a vast substratum.

Are Western Latvians/Lithuanians (around Samogitia and Courland) more pure Baltic? They have less Neolithic admixture than further East.

https://i.ibb.co/pKy5gXf/arm.jpg (https://ibb.co/5jFwdcr)

[ugochaves]

@ugochaves, how you have 3 different faces, two different religious affiliations, a couple of different passports and several countries of origin? Respect
Thanks for the question. I have one religion, this is my Russian friend frdfgcg
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?253411-Baltids-are-100-Mongoloids&p=5300696&viewfull=1#post5300696
And I look forward to it as the second coming. Otherwise, I'm not interested in anything.

[ugochaves]

Are Western Latvians/Lithuanians (around Samogitia and Courland) more pure Baltic? They have less Neolithic admixture than further East.
We do not know what the first Balts are. Modern Baltics were formed on the basis of the substrate of the Baltics. The ancient Balts were a little different but very close. I think they were like central Russian modern

[Melkiirs]

We do not know what the first Balts are. Modern Baltics were formed on the basis of the substrate of the Baltics. The ancient Balts were a little different but very close. I think they were like central Russian modern

Does Latgalians and Lithuanians proper having slightly more Neolithic admixture at all relate to greater Russian/Polish influence?

[ugochaves]

Does Latgalians and Lithuanians proper having slightly more Neolithic admixture at all relate to greater Russian/Polish influence?
I'm not an expert, I'm just giving my opinion. Lithuanians began to receive a Slavic contribution and more Western because of the Belarusians.

[cass]

We get slightly different results using K36
It is possible that K36 Western Ukrainian is too little Volyn
The Belarusians of Polesia, the West and the East do not resemble the early Slavs

Distance to: Russia_Sungir6_I2a1
10.22455867 Polish_Mazovia
10.26324023 Polish
10.40715139 Polish-2
11.17448880 Russian_Kursk
11.36779662 Russian_Smolensk
11.70088031 Russian_Oryol
11.76571290 Ukrainian_West
11.78107805 Ukrainian_Central
11.78661105 Belarusian_East
11.85442533 Ukrainian_East
11.99784147 Russian_Don_Cossack
12.00568615 Belarusian_West
12.06658610 Polish_North
12.08121683 Russian_Voronezh
12.17892031 Polish_Upper_Silesia
12.31663103 Polish_Podlasie_East_Mazovia
12.73126074 Belarusian_Polesia
12.94940153 Polish_South
12.97702200 Polish_Wielkopolska
13.07710213 Russian_Meshchera_Lowlands
13.51408894 Russian_Tver
13.59182475 Polish_Kashubian
13.74737793 Russian_Tambov
14.03663777 Russian_Bryansk
14.08814395 Russian


Distance to: Early_Medieval_Pole_AV2
7.78758628 Polish_Mazovia
8.04425882 Polish_Podlasie_East_Mazovia
8.15930144 Polish
8.55852207 Belarusian_East
8.84707296 Polish-2
9.30514374 Russian_Smolensk
9.33938970 Belarusian_West
9.39439727 Belarusian_Polesia
9.54815689 Russian_Bryansk
9.91069624 Russian_Oryol
10.15927655 Russian_Voronezh
10.17266435 Russian_Don_Cossack
10.23995605 Ukrainian_Central
10.38406953 Russian_Kursk
10.39558079 Ukrainian_East
10.99708143 Polish_Wielkopolska
11.59527059 Ukrainian_West
11.65009871 Polish_Sudovia
12.41552657 Russian_Tambov
12.48012019 Polish_Kashubian
12.48586401 Polish_Upper_Silesia
12.57721352 Russian_Novgorod_Pskov
12.73793939 Russian_Tver
12.74641126 Polish_North
12.75900074 Russian_Meshchera_Lowlands


Distance to: Early_Medieval_Pole_AV1
12.60072617 Slovak-2
13.25529705 Polish_South
13.85427732 Polish_Upper_Silesia
14.26578775 Ukrainian_West
14.39418285 Ukrainian_Central
15.10316854 Russian_Don_Cossack
15.11068496 Polish_Wielkopolska
15.47042339 Polish
15.53739682 Ukrainian_East
15.80641326 Russian_Oryol
15.82437045 Russian_Tver
15.98026596 Polish_SE_Carpathia
15.99610890 Polish-2
16.64877773 Polish_North
16.72131873 Russian_Voronezh
16.83262903 Polish_Kashubian
16.92850555 Russian_Tambov
17.15325917 Polish_Mazovia
17.53808712 Russian_Kursk
17.74619114 Belarusian_Polesia
17.76481635 Russian_Smolensk
17.89219383 Belarusian_West
17.96544739 Belarusian_East
18.20291460 Russian_Meshchera_Lowlands
18.23289609 Russian

Distance to: Early_Medieval_Czech_RISE569_K36
13.21590330 Slovak-2
14.95250481 Polish_Upper_Silesia
15.02660973 Polish_North
15.05402272 Polish_Wielkopolska
15.24565184 Polish_SE_Carpathia
15.33240033 Polish_South
15.35807605 Ukrainian_West
16.16910325 Romanian_Central
17.27576048 Russian_Don_Cossack
17.42981354 Polish_Kashubian
17.47818927 Romanian_Northeast
17.57722390 Polish
17.69596282 Polish-2
18.18468861 Russian_Voronezh
18.48386053 Ukrainian_Central
19.01918242 Romanian_Southwest
19.23582335 Russian_Oryol
19.27558300 Polish_Mazovia
19.68204258 Belarusian_West
19.78769567 Belarusian_Polesia
20.32815535 Russian_Tambov
20.34304549 Russian_Meshchera_Lowlands
20.34847660 Ukrainian_East
20.35530889 Romanian_Southeast
20.48346406 Russian_Kursk


Distance to: Poland_Niemsza_18
55.29273822 Polish_North
55.43608482 Polish_Kashubian
56.37502373 Polish_Wielkopolska
56.57423353 Polish_Sudovia
58.12980303 Polish_Podlasie_East_Mazovia
58.18235643 Latvian2
58.71164109 Polish_SE_Carpathia
58.73304181 Polish_Mazovia
58.76979496 Lithuanian
59.11947902 Polish-2
59.19323019 Polish_Upper_Silesia
59.45022624 Russian_Perm
59.65394874 Russian_Voronezh
59.70327797 Belarusian_Polesia
59.70547462 Polish
59.94938198 Russian_Bryansk
59.95246867 Belarusian_West
59.99160608 Russian_Kostroma
60.00146332 Slovak-2
60.10208316 Russian_Meshchera_Lowlands
60.13085231 Polish_South
60.20142855 Russian_Kursk
60.38369979 Russian_Novgorod_Pskov
60.50399326 Russian
60.52390272 Russian_Tver

IMO
Slavic ethnogenesis took place to the West and South of Belarus
Distance to: Germany_Lusatian_I0099
24.10287950 Polish_North
24.57828513 Slovak-2
26.30865447 Ukrainian_West
26.40460566 Polish_Upper_Silesia
26.92023774 Polish_Wielkopolska
26.93425514 Polish_South
27.15541198 Polish_Kashubian
27.17756612 Romanian_Central
27.20710385 Polish_SE_Carpathia
28.38747435 Romanian_Northeast
29.86955976 Polish
30.01100298 Polish-2
30.68424025 Romanian_Southeast
30.72701580 Romanian_Northwest
30.82940317 Polish_Mazovia
31.08146876 Ukrainian_Central
31.30708706 Russian_Don_Cossack
31.33983886 Romanian_Southwest
32.15924906 Ukrainian_East
32.35652021 Belarusian_West
32.38165067 Belarusian_Polesia
32.68757409 Russian_Voronezh
32.86128573 Russian_Oryol
33.55894367 Russian_Kursk
33.78977508 Russian_Tambov

[sage]

We get slightly different results using K36
It is possible that K36 Western Ukrainian is too little Volyn
The Belarusians of Polesia, the West and the East do not resemble the early Slavs

Distance to: Russia_Sungir6_I2a1
10.22455867 Polish_Mazovia
10.26324023 Polish
10.40715139 Polish-2
11.17448880 Russian_Kursk
11.36779662 Russian_Smolensk
11.70088031 Russian_Oryol
11.76571290 Ukrainian_West
11.78107805 Ukrainian_Central
11.78661105 Belarusian_East
11.85442533 Ukrainian_East
11.99784147 Russian_Don_Cossack
12.00568615 Belarusian_West
12.06658610 Polish_North
12.08121683 Russian_Voronezh
12.17892031 Polish_Upper_Silesia
12.31663103 Polish_Podlasie_East_Mazovia
12.73126074 Belarusian_Polesia
12.94940153 Polish_South
12.97702200 Polish_Wielkopolska
13.07710213 Russian_Meshchera_Lowlands
13.51408894 Russian_Tver
13.59182475 Polish_Kashubian
13.74737793 Russian_Tambov
14.03663777 Russian_Bryansk
14.08814395 Russian


Distance to: Early_Medieval_Pole_AV2
7.78758628 Polish_Mazovia
8.04425882 Polish_Podlasie_East_Mazovia
8.15930144 Polish
8.55852207 Belarusian_East
8.84707296 Polish-2
9.30514374 Russian_Smolensk
9.33938970 Belarusian_West
9.39439727 Belarusian_Polesia
9.54815689 Russian_Bryansk
9.91069624 Russian_Oryol
10.15927655 Russian_Voronezh
10.17266435 Russian_Don_Cossack
10.23995605 Ukrainian_Central
10.38406953 Russian_Kursk
10.39558079 Ukrainian_East
10.99708143 Polish_Wielkopolska
11.59527059 Ukrainian_West
11.65009871 Polish_Sudovia
12.41552657 Russian_Tambov
12.48012019 Polish_Kashubian
12.48586401 Polish_Upper_Silesia
12.57721352 Russian_Novgorod_Pskov
12.73793939 Russian_Tver
12.74641126 Polish_North
12.75900074 Russian_Meshchera_Lowlands


Distance to: Early_Medieval_Pole_AV1
12.60072617 Slovak-2
13.25529705 Polish_South
13.85427732 Polish_Upper_Silesia
14.26578775 Ukrainian_West
14.39418285 Ukrainian_Central
15.10316854 Russian_Don_Cossack
15.11068496 Polish_Wielkopolska
15.47042339 Polish
15.53739682 Ukrainian_East
15.80641326 Russian_Oryol
15.82437045 Russian_Tver
15.98026596 Polish_SE_Carpathia
15.99610890 Polish-2
16.64877773 Polish_North
16.72131873 Russian_Voronezh
16.83262903 Polish_Kashubian
16.92850555 Russian_Tambov
17.15325917 Polish_Mazovia
17.53808712 Russian_Kursk
17.74619114 Belarusian_Polesia
17.76481635 Russian_Smolensk
17.89219383 Belarusian_West
17.96544739 Belarusian_East
18.20291460 Russian_Meshchera_Lowlands
18.23289609 Russian

Distance to: Early_Medieval_Czech_RISE569_K36
13.21590330 Slovak-2
14.95250481 Polish_Upper_Silesia
15.02660973 Polish_North
15.05402272 Polish_Wielkopolska
15.24565184 Polish_SE_Carpathia
15.33240033 Polish_South
15.35807605 Ukrainian_West
16.16910325 Romanian_Central
17.27576048 Russian_Don_Cossack
17.42981354 Polish_Kashubian
17.47818927 Romanian_Northeast
17.57722390 Polish
17.69596282 Polish-2
18.18468861 Russian_Voronezh
18.48386053 Ukrainian_Central
19.01918242 Romanian_Southwest
19.23582335 Russian_Oryol
19.27558300 Polish_Mazovia
19.68204258 Belarusian_West
19.78769567 Belarusian_Polesia
20.32815535 Russian_Tambov
20.34304549 Russian_Meshchera_Lowlands
20.34847660 Ukrainian_East
20.35530889 Romanian_Southeast
20.48346406 Russian_Kursk


Distance to: Poland_Niemsza_18
55.29273822 Polish_North
55.43608482 Polish_Kashubian
56.37502373 Polish_Wielkopolska
56.57423353 Polish_Sudovia
58.12980303 Polish_Podlasie_East_Mazovia
58.18235643 Latvian2
58.71164109 Polish_SE_Carpathia
58.73304181 Polish_Mazovia
58.76979496 Lithuanian
59.11947902 Polish-2
59.19323019 Polish_Upper_Silesia
59.45022624 Russian_Perm
59.65394874 Russian_Voronezh
59.70327797 Belarusian_Polesia
59.70547462 Polish
59.94938198 Russian_Bryansk
59.95246867 Belarusian_West
59.99160608 Russian_Kostroma
60.00146332 Slovak-2
60.10208316 Russian_Meshchera_Lowlands
60.13085231 Polish_South
60.20142855 Russian_Kursk
60.38369979 Russian_Novgorod_Pskov
60.50399326 Russian
60.52390272 Russian_Tver

IMO
Slavic ethnogenesis took place to the West and South of Belarus
Distance to: Germany_Lusatian_I0099
24.10287950 Polish_North
24.57828513 Slovak-2
26.30865447 Ukrainian_West
26.40460566 Polish_Upper_Silesia
26.92023774 Polish_Wielkopolska
26.93425514 Polish_South
27.15541198 Polish_Kashubian
27.17756612 Romanian_Central
27.20710385 Polish_SE_Carpathia
28.38747435 Romanian_Northeast
29.86955976 Polish
30.01100298 Polish-2
30.68424025 Romanian_Southeast
30.72701580 Romanian_Northwest
30.82940317 Polish_Mazovia
31.08146876 Ukrainian_Central
31.30708706 Russian_Don_Cossack
31.33983886 Romanian_Southwest
32.15924906 Ukrainian_East
32.35652021 Belarusian_West
32.38165067 Belarusian_Polesia
32.68757409 Russian_Voronezh
32.86128573 Russian_Oryol
33.55894367 Russian_Kursk
33.78977508 Russian_Tambov

What is Romanian doing there and where is the rest of Balkanites?

[CommonSense]

Bronze Age Balts were the most northern-plotting people in the entirety of Europe. Not even modern-day Latvians can be compared to them. And that sort of profile persisted for centuries later, as evidenced by one of the samples from ancient Sicily and Viminacium.

All contemporary Balto-Slavic people showcase a certain amount of SW European-like autosomal admixture, although Slavs clearly have much more of it. A surprisingly good model for Balto-Slavs is Bronze Age Baltic + Iron Age Celtic samples. It makes sense taking into account that the branches parallel to I-Y3210 are exclusively found in Western Europe.

[Dušan]

A bit offtopic, but can see clearly proto-Slavic part similar mentioned in topic.



Quote from Greek music thread, Greeks argue who are the real one among them:


Go check the samples from the source yourself.

-> https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/07/getting-most-out-of-global25_12.html

->https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wZr-UOve0KUKo_Qbgeo27m-CQncZWb8y/view

-> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F2rKEVtu8nWSm7qFhxPU6UESQNsmA-sl/view

-> https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/

The Jewish propaganda promoter is accusing me of being a Jew, very ironic. "Cypriots are not Greek" says while rubbing their hands.

https://i.imgur.com/jLKRyBQ.png




Out of curiosity, I took this sample GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA and put it into modern populations, and run myself.



Voilà :cool:

Look at close distance :)


https://i.imgur.com/JO7HFym.png

[cass]

A bit offtopic, but can see clearly proto-Slavic part similar mentioned in topic.



Quote from Greek music thread, Greeks argue who are the real one among them:






Out of curiosity, I took this sample GRC_Mycenaean_Palace_of_Nestor_BA and put it into modern populations, and run myself.



Voilà :cool:

Look at close distance :)


https://i.imgur.com/JO7HFym.png

Neolithic Starcevo works similarly.

This is one of the factors that distinguish us Slavs from the UP Balts.