View Full Version : Models for eastern Balkan to southern Ukraine area
For Bulgarians, Macedonians, Aromanians and southern Moldovans
Paleo-Balkan:I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp,24.62,3.48,30,9. 21,28.33,4.36,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Proto-Slavic:Lithuanian,28.87,53.90,7.17,3.91,1.48,0.76, 1.34,0.06,0.82,0.77,0.41,0.29,0.22
Byzantine:Greek_Cappadocian,6.83,3.81,18.16,27.6,3 6.59,4.92,0.94,0.03,0.64,0.03,0.4,0,0
Bulgar:Chuvash,14.88,43.07,2.02,8.74,1.29,0.85,2.2 8,2.66,20.08,2.77,0.44,0.55,0.36
For Romanians, Hungarians of Romania, Moldovans and Carpathian Ukrainians
Pre-Slavic:MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_,17.31,16.47,24.79,14 .47,21.96,1.38,0.00,0.00,1.28,1.76,0.58,0.00,0.00
Proto-Slavic:Lithuanian,28.87,53.90,7.17,3.91,1.48,0.76, 1.34,0.06,0.82,0.77,0.41,0.29,0.22
Germanic:Norway_South_Central,50.83,28.97,9.61,4.7 8,1.91,0.62,0.94,0.11,0.63,0.68,0.56,0.13,0.23
Turkic:Crimean_Tatar,13.17,20.04,7.55,16.36,8.88,1 .83,3.23,10.25,16.40,1.28,0.47,0.27,0.21
East_Med:Greek_Cypriot,5.67,2.81,19.86,20.34,41.08 ,8.12,0.5,0.07,0.23,0,0.47,0.3,0.54
Magyar_conqueror:Bashkir,13.65,24.98,2.13,13.63,1. 26,0.28,3.45,8.71,27.40,3.25,0.41,0.58,0.27
Before anyone ask again, Lithuanians were used for proto Slavic because it's rumored that yet unreleased early Slavic samples from Prague-Korchak culture are Lithuanian like genetically.
Target: Aromanian
Distance: 1.3757% / 1.37574600
40.5 Paleo-Balkan
32.8 Proto-Slavic
26.7 Byzantine
Target: Macedonian
Distance: 1.4470% / 1.44702317
44.9 Paleo-Balkan
34.1 Proto-Slavic
21.0 Byzantine
Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 0.8002% / 0.80022957
39.6 Proto-Slavic
34.6 Paleo-Balkan
24.5 Byzantine
1.3 Bulgar
Target: Moldova_South_Gagauzia
Distance: 1.4686% / 1.46856455
35.7 Proto-Slavic
32.8 Byzantine
29.3 Paleo-Balkan
2.2 Bulgar
Target: Csángó-Ceangău
Distance: 0.9940% / 0.99404740
41.4 Pre-Slavic
26.5 Proto-Slavic
23.1 Germanic
4.5 Turkic
3.0 Magyar_conqueror
1.5 East_Med
Target: Hungarian_Transylvania_Szekely
Distance: 1.7467% / 1.74668531
34.1 Pre-Slavic
27.6 Germanic
25.6 Proto-Slavic
9.2 East_Med
3.5 Magyar_conqueror
Target: Romanian
Distance: 1.3452% / 1.34522505
42.7 Pre-Slavic
26.6 Proto-Slavic
16.6 East_Med
14.1 Germanic
Target: Moldovan
Distance: 1.0312% / 1.03119477
41.2 Proto-Slavic
34.4 Pre-Slavic
13.9 East_Med
8.6 Germanic
1.9 Turkic
Target: Ukrainian_Carpathian
Distance: 1.1455% / 1.14550668
56.4 Proto-Slavic
27.9 Pre-Slavic
9.7 Germanic
5.5 East_Med
0.5 Magyar_conqueror
MandM
04-06-2021, 05:09 PM
am not east balkan, but just wanted for fun =)
Target: Milenko
Distance: 454.3155% / 4.54315472
46.8 Proto-Slavic
34.2 Paleo-Balkan
16.2 Byzantine
2.8 Bulgar
Target: Milenko
Distance: 228.9875% / 2.28987539
66.4 Pre-Slavic
33.6 Proto-Slavic
Duan
04-06-2021, 05:14 PM
Target: Dušan
Distance: 4.5886% / 4.58863887
52.5 Proto-Slavic
32.5 Paleo-Balkan
8.8 Byzantine
6.2 Bulgar
Target: Dušan
Distance: 2.8234% / 2.82336094
54.8 Pre-Slavic
45.2 Proto-Slavic
Kökény
04-06-2021, 05:27 PM
Target: Kökény
Distance: 1.8994% / 1.89936266
40.2 Germanic
26.2 Pre-Slavic
14.5 East_Med
10.1 Proto-Slavic
7.7 Turkic
1.3 Magyar_conqueror
Target: Stears
Distance: 2.3971% / 2.39711025
33.2 Proto-Slavic
24.9 Germanic
23.6 Pre-Slavic
9.3 East_Med
9.0 Turkic
17571imre
04-06-2021, 05:54 PM
Not sure how that model works for Hungarians. Your using very Southern samples as Pre Slavic and thats why Szekely/Transylvania and Csango people get 25 Germanic wich i dont think is reality. And i highly doubt that kokeny is almost half Germanic.
Results with your calculator based on moderns wich is more trustwhorty if you ask me:
Target: Csángó-Ceangău
Distance: 0.1693% / 0.16934085
50.1 Slavic
31.1 Vlach
8.0 Germanic
6.4 Turkic
4.4 Alan
Target: Hungarian_Transylvania_Szekely
Distance: 0.3990% / 0.39900995
44.9 Slavic
35.8 Vlach
14.2 Germanic
5.1 Turkic
I suggest to use this model just for Eastern Balkanites but not for Hungarians because there pre slavic is not that Southern. More close to Corsican and Tuscan people.
17571imre
04-06-2021, 05:54 PM
double
WeirdLookingFellow
04-06-2021, 06:07 PM
Bulgarian-Byzantine:
Target: Fellow
Distance: 502.6742% / 5.02674217
56.4 Paleo-Balkan
41.4 Proto-Slavic
2.0 Bulgar
0.2 Byzantine
Target: FellowGF
Distance: 329.0673% / 3.29067272
42.4 Proto-Slavic
39.4 Paleo-Balkan
15.4 Byzantine
2.8 Bulgar
Romanian:
Target: Fellow (worse distance than the normal one)
Distance: 599.8856% / 5.99885636
40.0 Pre-Slavic
29.4 Germanic
16.0 Proto-Slavic
14.6 East_Med
Target: FellowGF
Distance: 304.6562% / 3.04656237
56.0 Pre-Slavic
25.6 Proto-Slavic
10.0 Germanic
8.4 East_Med
Kaspias
04-06-2021, 06:15 PM
Target: Kaspias
Distance: 1.7153% / 1.71526767
36.0 Bulgar
35.7 Byzantine
20.8 Paleo-Balkan
7.5 Proto-Slavic
Impaler
04-06-2021, 06:28 PM
Target: Impaler
Distance: 5.8341% / 5.83406262
46.4 East_Med
32.8 Germanic
11.8 Turkic
9.0 Proto-Slavic
Ion Basescul
04-06-2021, 06:36 PM
Target: Ion_Basescul
Distance: 1.6129% / 1.61289399
35.1 Pre-Slavic
30.2 Proto-Slavic
17.1 Germanic
10.2 Turkic
7.4 East_Med
Target: Ion_Basescul_brother
Distance: 2.5623% / 2.56227771
46.9 Pre-Slavic
43.0 Proto-Slavic
7.2 Turkic
2.9 East_Med
Target: Ion_Basescul_mom
Distance: 4.2509% / 4.25092193
56.2 Proto-Slavic
30.0 Pre-Slavic
13.8 East_Med
Target: Ion_Basescul_dad
Distance: 2.8039% / 2.80394988
40.6 Proto-Slavic
39.3 Pre-Slavic
8.4 Germanic
6.4 Turkic
5.3 East_Med
<tbody>
Target
Pre-Slavic
Proto-Slavic+Germanic
East Med
Turkic
Ion_Basescul
35.1
47.3
7.4
10.2
Brother
46.9
43
2.9
7.2
Mom
30
56.2
13.8
0
Dad
39.3
47.7
5.3
6.4
</tbody>
Not sure how that model works for Hungarians. Your using very Southern samples as Pre Slavic and thats why Szekely/Transylvania and Csango people get 25 Germanic wich i dont think is reality. And i highly doubt that kokeny is almost half Germanic.
I suggest to use this model just for Eastern Balkanites but not for Hungarians because there pre slavic is not that Southern.
That's innacurate. Thraco-Cimmerian sample is not very southern and it has actual Balto-Slavic drift. Because it's a mix of Thracian and Scythian.
Such sample was found either in Ukraine and Moldova and should be more representative for pre-Slavic genetics of people north of the Danube.
I don't use it for Balkans exactly because it's part NE European but it makes sense for Romanians or Moldovans because Dacians did interact with steppic populations.
Gergő Marosvári
04-06-2021, 07:19 PM
Target: Gergő
Distance: 3.6273% / 3.62730529
62.6 Proto-Slavic
19.9 Pre-Slavic
15.5 Paleo-Balkan
2.0 Turkic
Dunai
04-06-2021, 07:28 PM
East Balkans calculator (completely not for me):
Target: Dunai
Distance: 9.8377% / 9.83773996
59.0 Proto-Slavic
39.6 Paleo-Balkan
1.4 Bulgar
But the second one actually gives me proper distance and makes it seem that my usually rather noticeable Asiatic admixture I must have inherited from the Magyar Conquerors than from other Turkic people in the Carpathian Basin:
Target: Dunai
Distance: 1.5526% / 1.55263524
45.7 Germanic
21.5 Pre-Slavic
21.5 Proto-Slavic
6.0 East_Med
5.3 Magyar_conqueror
smd555
04-06-2021, 09:10 PM
Before anyone ask again, Lithuanians were used for proto Slavic because it's rumored that yet unreleased early Slavic samples from Prague-Korchak culture are Lithuanian like genetically.
Very interesting. Do you know where those samples are from? I know only one surviving skull of the Prague-Korchak culture from the territory of southwestern Ukraine.
Very interesting. Do you know where those samples are from? I know only one surviving skull of the Prague-Korchak culture from the territory of southwestern Ukraine.
User Token maybe knows more. Interestingly in Croatia we have traces of that culture too.
GalenStark
04-06-2021, 09:37 PM
Which coordinates does this use?
Which coordinates does this use?
Eurogenes K13, but I think not ideal for Albanians because we lack southern Ilyrian samples :(
17571imre
04-06-2021, 10:16 PM
with Bulgaria IA added to the second spreadsheet it works well. I only score a little Thraco Kimmerian
Target: Imre
Distance: 1.3578% / 1.35784262
35.8 Paleo-Balkan
33.1 Proto-Slavic
22.8 Germanic
4.2 Byzantine
2.7 Pre-Slavic
1.4 Magyar_conqueror
Target: cb
Distance: 3.3789% / 3.37892188
39.6 Proto-Slavic
36.1 Paleo-Balkan
17.9 Germanic
6.4 Magyar_conqueror
with Bulgaria IA added to the second spreadsheet it works well. I only score a little Thraco Kimmerian
Target: Imre
Distance: 1.3578% / 1.35784262
35.8 Paleo-Balkan
33.1 Proto-Slavic
22.8 Germanic
4.2 Byzantine
2.7 Pre-Slavic
1.4 Magyar_conqueror
Target: cb
Distance: 3.3789% / 3.37892188
39.6 Proto-Slavic
36.1 Paleo-Balkan
17.9 Germanic
6.4 Magyar_conqueror
Bulgaria IA is much more southern sample which is Thracian.
17571imre
04-06-2021, 10:30 PM
Bulgaria IA is much more southern sample which is Thracian.
then i have no idea why our Germanic goes up so much with that sample.
could it be because of the NA score?
Paleo-Balkan:I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp,24.62,3.48,30,9. 21,28.33,4.36,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Pre-Slavic:MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_,17.31,16.47,24.79,14 .47,21.96,1.38,0.00,0.00,1.28,1.76,0.58,0.00,0.00
with only thraco Kimmerian:
Target: Imre
Distance: 2.9743% / 2.97431234
39.6 Pre-Slavic
36.6 Germanic
17.0 Proto-Slavic
6.8 East_Med
Target: cb
Distance: 5.1391% / 5.13906645
34.3 Pre-Slavic
32.6 Germanic
25.5 Proto-Slavic
5.4 East_Med
2.2 Magyar_conqueror
worse fit also
Distance to: Paleo-Balkan:I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
7.91786587 France_Corsica
Distance to: Pre-Slavic:MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
5.92627202 Greek_Central_Macedonia
and also Corsica is closer to NW Europe then Central Macedonia.
paradox
04-06-2021, 10:54 PM
Tried both, my distance for the first is not close as expected but either is my father's. The second is better but we need those south illyrian samples.
Target: paradox
Distance: 3.8466% / 3.84658287
47.1Byzantine
32.0Proto-Slavic
20.9Paleo-Balkan
Target: Father
Distance: 3.8379% / 3.83793279
44.2Paleo-Balkan
40.4Proto-Slavic
14.2Byzantine
1.2Bulgar
---------------------------
Target: paradox
Distance: 1.7383% / 1.73832476
49.2East_Med
27.5Proto-Slavic
19.8Pre-Slavic
3.5Germanic
Target: Father
Distance: 2.4933% / 2.49327908
30.9East_Med
28.5Germanic
20.9Pre-Slavic
19.7Proto-Slavic
then i have no idea why our Germanic goes up so much with that sample.
could it be because of the NA score?
Paleo-Balkan:I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp,24.62,3.48,30,9. 21,28.33,4.36,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Pre-Slavic:MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_,17.31,16.47,24.79,14 .47,21.96,1.38,0.00,0.00,1.28,1.76,0.58,0.00,0.00
with only thraco Kimmerian:
Target: Imre
Distance: 2.9743% / 2.97431234
39.6 Pre-Slavic
36.6 Germanic
17.0 Proto-Slavic
6.8 East_Med
Target: cb
Distance: 5.1391% / 5.13906645
34.3 Pre-Slavic
32.6 Germanic
25.5 Proto-Slavic
5.4 East_Med
2.2 Magyar_conqueror
worse fit also
Distance to: Paleo-Balkan:I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp
7.91786587 France_Corsica
Distance to: Pre-Slavic:MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
5.92627202 Greek_Central_Macedonia
and also Corsica is closer to NW Europe then Central Macedonia.
Central Macedonia has obviously much more NE European ancestry than Corsica which has almost nil. And it is not more southern. I designed second model mostly for Moldovans amd eastern Romanians because on that area Dacians (a subset of Thracians) and Scythians mixed. Using southern Balkan IA sample doesn't make much sense.
Hungarians from Hungary require different model.
Tried both, my distance for the first is not close as expected but either is my father's. The second is better but we need those south illyrian samples.
Target: paradox
Distance: 3.8466% / 3.84658287
47.1Byzantine
32.0Proto-Slavic
20.9Paleo-Balkan
Target: Father
Distance: 3.8379% / 3.83793279
44.2Paleo-Balkan
40.4Proto-Slavic
14.2Byzantine
1.2Bulgar
---------------------------
Target: paradox
Distance: 1.7383% / 1.73832476
49.2East_Med
27.5Proto-Slavic
19.8Pre-Slavic
3.5Germanic
Target: Father
Distance: 2.4933% / 2.49327908
30.9East_Med
28.5Germanic
20.9Pre-Slavic
19.7Proto-Slavic
Germanic shouldn't be used for modeling southern Balkans in my opinion because Germanic tribes never settled there in masses and didn't leave much traces unlike in areas of Romania, or Moldova.
RicoSuave
04-06-2021, 11:12 PM
Distance: 1.8385% / 0.01838517
45.0 Baltic_EST_BA
38.0 Turkic
17.0 Paleo-Balkan
So what I see here. There was an admixture event that happened between Crimean Tatars and Finnic people and equally there was an admixture event between Crimean Tatars and East Balkan people, likely within Russian Empire or Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth. (Paleo-Balkan) is my Guanche component coastal African.
GalenStark
04-06-2021, 11:17 PM
Eurogenes K13, but I think not ideal for Albanians because we lack southern Ilyrian samples :(
Yea I thought I used the wrong coordinates cause I had a distance of 6-7 lol
Crn Volk
04-07-2021, 12:13 AM
Pay attention Bulgars
Target: Macedonian
Distance: 1.4470% / 1.44702317
44.9 Paleo-Balkan
34.1 Proto-Slavic
21.0 Byzantine
Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 0.8002% / 0.80022957
39.6 Proto-Slavic
34.6 Paleo-Balkan
24.5 Byzantine
1.3 Bulgar
oszkar07
04-07-2021, 12:13 AM
Target: Oszkar
Distance: 3.1348% / 3.13482240
56.3 Germanic
22.5 Proto-Slavic
13.8 Pre-Slavic
7.4 East_Med
Target: Oszkar
Distance: 3.3917% / 3.39170600 | ADC: 0.25x RC
54.4 Germanic
24.9 Pre-Slavic
20.7 Proto-Slavic
JohnnyP
04-07-2021, 02:13 AM
The best distances are with all of your references, and MJ12 I put under Paleo-Balkan together with BGR_IA,
https://i.imgur.com/I53kFY4.png
https://i.imgur.com/orX54GM.png
https://i.imgur.com/goIdypm.png
bained
04-07-2021, 02:45 AM
How is Chuvash a bulgar is beyond me, but I have seen more delusion here so here are my results:
Target: BaiNed
Distance: 4.1227% / 4.12270063
51.9 Paleo-Balkan
35.3 Proto-Slavic
12.8 Byzantine
calxpal
04-07-2021, 02:54 AM
My grandma's results with the second set =)
Target: grandma
Distance: 221.7802% / 2.21780243
47.6 Proto-Slavic:Lithuanian
25.0 Germanic:Norway_South_Central
11.0 Pre-Slavic:MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
11.0 East_Med:Greek_Cypriot
5.4 Magyar_conqueror:Bashkir
Distance to: grandma
19.70365956 Proto-Slavic:Lithuanian
23.58162844 Germanic:Norway_South_Central
30.81941271 Turkic:Crimean_Tatar
31.47322989 Pre-Slavic:MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
35.63390520 Magyar_conqueror:Bashkir
55.53372039 East_Med:Greek_Cypriot
My results
Target: cpal
Distance: 181.6604% / 1.81660360
63.8 Germanic:Norway_South_Central
14.0 Proto-Slavic:Lithuanian
11.4 Pre-Slavic:MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
10.2 East_Med:Greek_Cypriot
0.6 Turkic:Crimean_Tatar
Distance to: cpal
13.90909055 Germanic:Norway_South_Central
29.03915632 Proto-Slavic:Lithuanian
32.03553652 Pre-Slavic:MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
34.62377507 Turkic:Crimean_Tatar
40.51627081 Magyar_conqueror:Bashkir
55.94137735 East_Med:Greek_Cypriot
alexmegas777
04-07-2021, 07:09 AM
Target: alexmegas(Romanian)
Distance: 277.1617% / 2.77161719
62.8 Pre-Slavic
37.2 Germanic
Dunai
04-07-2021, 09:55 AM
How is Chuvash a bulgar is beyond me, but I have seen more delusion here so here are my results:
Target: BaiNed
Distance: 4.1227% / 4.12270063
51.9 Paleo-Balkan
35.3 Proto-Slavic
12.8 Byzantine
Chuvash are the closest to Old Bulgars, just like Bashkirs are closest to Old Magyars, that's why I believe these modern populations were used for them, since there aren't proper Old Bulgar and Old Magyar admixture samples uploaded.
Yea I thought I used the wrong coordinates cause I had a distance of 6-7 lol
You can try Croatia IA for Illyrian input, but I highly doubt Illyrian proprie dicti in area of Albania were genetically like that.
Illyrian:I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp,34.15,12. 62,23.19,10.39,15.71,3.56,0,0,0.38,0,0,0,0
Northern "Illyrians" from Croatia were most likely Venetic speakers, that's why this sample is closest to Venetians. Even old researchers taught Dalmatian-Panonnian region was ethnically different from proper Illyrians down south.
The best distances are with all of your references, and MJ12 I put under Paleo-Balkan together with BGR_IA,
Using Thraco-Cimmerians for southern Balkans doesn't make sense because southern Balkan didn't have any Scythtian input. Cimmerians are type of Scythians, eastern European steppe people.
RicoSuave
04-07-2021, 10:45 AM
Using Thraco-Cimmerians for southern Balkans doesn't make sense because southern Balkan didn't have any Scythtian input. Cimmerians are type of Scythians, eastern European steppe people.
This sample from olive region, your not accurate lol
Target: UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12
Distance: 2.3968% / 0.02396837
39.8 Greek_Izmir
37.4 Macedonian
7.8 Sardinian
6.2 Spanish_Soria
6.0 Shor_Khakassia
1.8 Khonda_Dora
1.0 Mbuti
This sample from olive region, your not accurate lol
Target: UKR_Cimmerian_o:MJ12
Distance: 2.3968% / 0.02396837
39.8 Greek_Izmir
37.4 Macedonian
7.8 Sardinian
6.2 Spanish_Soria
6.0 Shor_Khakassia
1.8 Khonda_Dora
1.0 Mbuti
Don't make me laugh, Ukraine is certanly not an "olive region". And it has Balto-Slavic drift absent in iron age Thracian from Bulgaria.
RicoSuave
04-07-2021, 10:51 AM
Don't make me laugh, Ukraine is certanly not an "olive region". And it has Balto-Slavic drift absent in iron age Thracian from Bulgaria.
How? Where? Macedonian?
How? Where? Macedonian?
Ofcourse, dummy, modern Macedonians have significant NE European ancestry. Duh.
RicoSuave
04-07-2021, 11:07 AM
Ofcourse, dummy, modern Macedonians have significant NE European ancestry. Duh.
Macedonians are 25-33% Northern European on average. Not much there. Lol
Macedonians are 25-33% Northern European on average. Not much there. Lol
Much more NE Euro compared to IA Thracian who has almost none of this ancestry. What's not clear to you?
This sample is Paleo Balkan with some Scythian admixture thus called Thraco Cimmerian and it should be good pre-Slavic proxy for Moldovans, but not for Macedonians.
my results for fun
Target: Stearsolina
Distance: 3.0894% / 3.08937785
44.1 Proto-Slavic
41.3 Pre-Slavic
14.6 Germanic
Target: Stearsolina
Distance: 5.0065% / 5.00650955
64.1 Proto-Slavic
30.0 Paleo-Balkan
5.9 Byzantine
In second model many people get excess Germanic because Thraco-Cimmerian eats away part of their Slavic percentage.
So this is not ideal. But I don't see good solution with using southern Balkan samples for area much more north.
Nothing, we need to wait for more samples.
First model should be good for selected groups though.
My by replacing Thracian with Illyrian in first model
Target: Stearsolina
Distance: 3.8010% / 3.80104098
56.0 Proto-Slavic
32.0 Illyrian
11.2 Byzantine
0.8 Paleo-Balkan
RicoSuave
04-07-2021, 11:26 AM
My by replacing Thracian with Illyrian in first model
Target: Stearsolina
Distance: 3.8010% / 3.80104098
56.0 Proto-Slavic
32.0 Illyrian
11.2 Byzantine
0.8 Paleo-Balkan
Here is me lmao
Distance: 1.8385% / 0.01838517
45.0 Baltic_EST_BA
38.0 Turkic
17.0 Paleo-Balkan
Better distance
Vrazijadivizija
04-07-2021, 11:32 AM
Target: Vrazijadivizija
Distance: 5.5393% / 5.53926140
61.1 Proto-Slavic
26.6 Paleo-Balkan
12.3 Byzantine
Target: Vrazijadivizija
Distance: 5.4037% / 5.40366041 | ADC: 0.25x RC
54.7 Proto-Slavic
33.5 Pre-Slavic
11.8 East_Med
Pure Macedonian <3
GalenStark
04-07-2021, 04:44 PM
The best distances are with all of your references, and MJ12 I put under Paleo-Balkan together with BGR_IA,
https://i.imgur.com/I53kFY4.png
https://i.imgur.com/orX54GM.png
https://i.imgur.com/goIdypm.png
How are East Macedonians more paleobalkan shifted than West Macedonians? How big is the sample size and what statistical regions does each division encompass?
GalenStark
04-07-2021, 05:01 PM
You can try Croatia IA for Illyrian input, but I highly doubt Illyrian proprie dicti in area of Albania were genetically like that.
Illyrian:I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp,34.15,12. 62,23.19,10.39,15.71,3.56,0,0,0.38,0,0,0,0
Northern "Illyrians" from Croatia were most likely Venetic speakers, that's why this sample is closest to Venetians. Even old researchers taught Dalmatian-Panonnian region was ethnically different from proper Illyrians down south.
My best proxy is usually MJ12_Thraco-Cimmerian. Including other Albanians. Someone mentioned they probably were Balkan people and not real Scythians.
Here's my Distances using all ancients for G25, and K13:
K13:
Distance to: Galenstark
6.07973684 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
8.30089152 Greece_MBA_Log02
8.32265583 SZ32_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
8.76373779 R970_Lazio_Rome_Renaissance_Italy
9.41141328 R969_Lazio_Rome_Renaissance_Italy
9.46164890 DA198_Hungary_Scythian_550_BC_
9.75743306 R121_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
9.78001022 scy197_SG_Moldova_Scythian_SG
10.97608765 R107_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
11.22175566 R1283_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy
11.32416001 SZ37_Hungary_Langobard_1447_ybp
11.37443625 scy192_SG_Moldova_Scythian_SG
11.67197070 SZ36_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp
11.78000000 R111_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
11.88878043 I2520_Bulgaria_EBA_5132_ybp
11.94144464 SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_60th_century
12.14957612 R59_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy
12.16090046 R60_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy
12.19885650 I7043_Hungary_BA_4000_ybp
12.46044140 SZ1.SG_longobard_hungary
12.50950838 NW54_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1491_ybp
12.69108742 I4131_Hungary_Bell_Beaker_EBA_4289_ybp
12.74530109 SZ1_Hungary_BA.SG_3950_ybp
12.76870393 R1_Abruzzo_Teramo_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy
12.84972373 R36_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
G25 Averaged Scaled:
Distance to: Galenstark
0.03819516 UKR_Cimmerian_o
0.03979503 HRV_MBA
0.04350113 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.04463139 ITA_Rome_MA
0.04538327 ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
0.04556745 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
0.04576255 BGR_IA
0.04901198 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA
0.05027755 GRC_Helladic_MBA
0.05032631 Scythian_MDA
0.05177658 BGR_EBA
0.05182707 TUR_IA_low_res
0.05209172 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
0.05223886 IND_Roopkund_B
0.05234364 HRV_EBA
0.05280019 HRV_IA
0.05627751 ITA_Etruscan_o2
0.05636563 ITA_Etruscan
0.05701967 ITA_Proto-Villanovan
0.05736240 DEU_MA_o
0.05791531 HUN_BA
0.05847323 Bell_Beaker_ITA
0.06167637 HUN_MA_Szolad_o1
0.06206766 ITA_Villanovan
0.06317539 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
G25 Average Unscaled:
Distance to: Galenstark
0.02071232 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
0.02294058 UKR_Cimmerian_o
0.02336878 HRV_MBA
0.02485089 IND_Roopkund_B
0.02501080 BGR_IA
0.02532411 ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
0.02657749 Scythian_MDA
0.02784097 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.02841676 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA
0.02947279 GRC_Mycenaean
0.02959307 TUR_IA_low_res
0.03006683 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.03020568 BGR_EBA
0.03053572 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
0.03054532 TUR_Isparta_EBA
0.03060085 ITA_Rome_MA
0.03201531 DEU_MA_o
0.03219527 ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.03336342 Scythian_HUN
0.03390443 HUN_BA
0.03403248 DEU_Roman
0.03405738 GRC_Cycladic_EBA
0.03501650 ITA_Sardinia_IA
0.03510690 SRB_Mokrin_EBA
0.03523613 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
My best proxy is usually MJ12_Thraco-Cimmerian. Including other Albanians. Someone mentioned they probably were Balkan people and not real Scythians.
Here's my Distances using all ancients for G25, and K13:
K13:
Distance to: Galenstark
6.07973684 MJ12_Thraco_Kimmerian_
8.30089152 Greece_MBA_Log02
8.32265583 SZ32_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp
8.76373779 R970_Lazio_Rome_Renaissance_Italy
9.41141328 R969_Lazio_Rome_Renaissance_Italy
9.46164890 DA198_Hungary_Scythian_550_BC_
9.75743306 R121_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
9.78001022 scy197_SG_Moldova_Scythian_SG
10.97608765 R107_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
11.22175566 R1283_Lazio_Rome_Medieval_Italy
11.32416001 SZ37_Hungary_Langobard_1447_ybp
11.37443625 scy192_SG_Moldova_Scythian_SG
11.67197070 SZ36_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp
11.78000000 R111_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial
11.88878043 I2520_Bulgaria_EBA_5132_ybp
11.94144464 SZ31_Longobard_M_T1a1a_PF5620_U4c2a_60th_century
12.14957612 R59_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy
12.16090046 R60_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy
12.19885650 I7043_Hungary_BA_4000_ybp
12.46044140 SZ1.SG_longobard_hungary
12.50950838 NW54_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1491_ybp
12.69108742 I4131_Hungary_Bell_Beaker_EBA_4289_ybp
12.74530109 SZ1_Hungary_BA.SG_3950_ybp
12.76870393 R1_Abruzzo_Teramo_Late_Bronze_Age_Italy
12.84972373 R36_Lazio_Rome_Italy_Late_Antiquity
G25 Averaged Scaled:
Distance to: Galenstark
0.03819516 UKR_Cimmerian_o
0.03979503 HRV_MBA
0.04350113 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.04463139 ITA_Rome_MA
0.04538327 ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
0.04556745 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
0.04576255 BGR_IA
0.04901198 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA
0.05027755 GRC_Helladic_MBA
0.05032631 Scythian_MDA
0.05177658 BGR_EBA
0.05182707 TUR_IA_low_res
0.05209172 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
0.05223886 IND_Roopkund_B
0.05234364 HRV_EBA
0.05280019 HRV_IA
0.05627751 ITA_Etruscan_o2
0.05636563 ITA_Etruscan
0.05701967 ITA_Proto-Villanovan
0.05736240 DEU_MA_o
0.05791531 HUN_BA
0.05847323 Bell_Beaker_ITA
0.06167637 HUN_MA_Szolad_o1
0.06206766 ITA_Villanovan
0.06317539 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
G25 Average Unscaled:
Distance to: Galenstark
0.02071232 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
0.02294058 UKR_Cimmerian_o
0.02336878 HRV_MBA
0.02485089 IND_Roopkund_B
0.02501080 BGR_IA
0.02532411 ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance
0.02657749 Scythian_MDA
0.02784097 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.02841676 VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA
0.02947279 GRC_Mycenaean
0.02959307 TUR_IA_low_res
0.03006683 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
0.03020568 BGR_EBA
0.03053572 Levant_LBN_MA_o4
0.03054532 TUR_Isparta_EBA
0.03060085 ITA_Rome_MA
0.03201531 DEU_MA_o
0.03219527 ITA_Rome_Imperial
0.03336342 Scythian_HUN
0.03390443 HUN_BA
0.03403248 DEU_Roman
0.03405738 GRC_Cycladic_EBA
0.03501650 ITA_Sardinia_IA
0.03510690 SRB_Mokrin_EBA
0.03523613 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
They are artifically similar to you not because they are best proxy for your pre-Slavic ancestry (which they aren't) but because they are mix of Paleo Balkan and NE European which makes them close to modern day southern Balkans.
It's a sample from Ukraine with Scythian admixture and should not be used for modeling Albanians at all.
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