Ethnic groups that are lighter/darker than their ancestry would suggest

[Hoihey]

Ethnic groups that through genetic drift, founder effect, inbreeding, or natural selection are pigmented differently than what you’d expect of somebody of their ancestry.

DARKER

Melanesians from Bougainville


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh7zflxEhF0

LIGHTER
Ashkenazi Jews despite being half near eastern and ~40% Southern European are noticeable lighter than both ethnic groups


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQQ5YB8BFP8

[Tooting Carmen]

Brits are darker in hair and possibly eyes than other Europeans of a similar latitude. Iranians are relatively light when compared to many of their neighbours.

[Hoihey]

Brits are darker in hair and possibly eyes than other Europeans of a similar latitude. Iranians are relatively light when compared to many of their neighbours.

Brits are super pale and sunburn easily, and plenty of them have light hair

[Tooting Carmen]

Brits are super pale and sunburn easily, and plenty of them have light hair

They're much darker-haired than Scandinavians and also darker-haired than most Dutch and Germans (except Bavarians).

[Hoihey]

DARKER
Cobra Gypsies from Rajasthan, darker than most Tamils yet their origins are from NW india. Interestingly they also have a higher rate of lighter eyes than their neighbors


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtNAcjwcTqQ

[Hoihey]

LIGHTER
Nuristani people are noticeably lighter than their neighbors despite being part of the same iranic ethnic group


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aqroSebIQE

[gixajo]

Ethnic groups that through genetic drift, founder effect, inbreeding, or natural selection are pigmented differently than what you’d expect of somebody of their ancestry.


Ashkenazi Jews despite being half near eastern and ~40% Southern European are noticeable lighter than both ethnic groups

]

But Ashkenazim also have quite admixture from Central and North Europe.

And Ashkenazim are not all of them lighter than Italians, Ashkenazim are a very diverse group of people which has at least as much variety of phenotypes, and as different as can be Italians.

I don't know if that Italian mix of the Ashkenazim is real, or just that their genetic mix between Northern Europe and the Levant, preferentially models them as Italians, without having contributions from that area.:confused:

Let's see if any expert can clarify this last point for me, because I do not understand how people who have lived for centuries in Germany, Russia or in Baltic countries, have a 40-50% Italian in those results.

I can undertstand that a Moroccan Jew is practically 50% Iberian, but....50% Italian a Ashkenazi from Russia? Most of Shephardim lived during centuries in the Iberian peninsula before also because of the Roman Empire , before being expelled, but they don´t score any Italian. Why that difference?

[gixajo]

Letting the imagination fly , if the Ashkenazim stopped being modeled preferably as Italians, Germans, Baltics, Russians, Poles and practically all those from North and Central Europe, with a genetic relationship with Slavs and/or Germans (even English and Scandinavians!) they would begin to score much more than that they do regularly in Ashkenazi, and that would be terrible.;)

[Abriekman]

But Ashkenazim also have quite admixture from Central and North Europe.

And Ashkenazim are not all of them lighter than Italians, Ashkenazim are a very diverse group of people which has at least as much variety of phenotypes, and as different as can be Italians.

I don't know if that Italian mix of the Ashkenazim is real, or just that their genetic mix between Northern Europe and the Levant, preferentially models them as Italians, without having contributions from that area.:confused:

Let's see if any expert can clarify this last point for me, because I do not understand how people who have lived for centuries in Germany, Russia or in Baltic countries, have a 40-50% Italian in those results.

I can undertstand that a Moroccan Jew is practically 50% Iberian, but....50% Italian a Ashkenazi from Russia? Most of Shephardim lived during centuries in the Iberian peninsula before also because of the Roman Empire , before being expelled, but they don´t score any Italian. Why that difference?

I also thought about it, that Ashkenazi Jews can be just mix of Northern Europeans and Levantines, but if we go by Gedmatch calculators their North Atlantic score is the same as Italian, Sephardic and North African Jews have. Baltic score is only higher, which represents Slavic admixture. They are modelled as 90% Italian Jewish + 10% Eastern European on all these calculators. Approximately 55% from Levantines, 35% from ancient Romans and 10% from Slavs

[gixajo]

I also thought about it, that Ashkenazi Jews can be just mix of Northern Europeans and Levantines, but if we go by Gedmatch calculators their North Atlantic score is the same as Italian, Sephardic and North African Jews have. Baltic score is only higher, which represents Slavic admixture. They are modelled as 90% Italian Jewish + 10% Eastern European on all these calculators. Approximately 55% from Levantines, 35% from ancient Romans and 10% from Slavs

But Gedmatch is an Admixtool to modellate people basing that modelling in few components, based in a SNPs lecture,(reading?) but not directly a SNPs assigned to ethnicities lecture(reading?).

So Admixture tools don´t give a real result, but several different ways in which a individual is modelled through some coordinates.

Do Ashkenazim score 40-50% Italian in ethnic estimates from commercial companies that give estimates throug directly assigned SNPs or "chunks" of similar SNPs concatenated too?

[gixajo]

I also thought about it, that Ashkenazi Jews can be just mix of Northern Europeans and Levantines, but if we go by Gedmatch calculators their North Atlantic score is the same as Italian, Sephardic and North African Jews have. Baltic score is only higher, which represents Slavic admixture. They are modelled as 90% Italian Jewish + 10% Eastern European on all these calculators. Approximately 55% from Levantines, 35% from ancient Romans and 10% from Slavs

Are you actually jew or just you have some Jewish ancestry?

We can do a test with you if you have G25.

I make two artificial references Askenazim with 50% Levantine (Palestinian_Beit_Sahour) and half Polish and another similar with Levantine and the Russian average, and we tested two models with two Askenazim groups from the datasheet and those two artificial ones, and the polissh and Russian references, to see how you score.

[gixajo]

Well, I can do the same with K13 if you don´t have G25.

[Abriekman]

But Gedmatch is an Admixtool to modellate people basing that modelling in few components, based in a SNPs lecture,(reading?) but not directly a SNPs assigned to ethnicities lecture(reading?).

So Admixture tools don´t give a real result, but several different ways in which a individual is modelled through some coordinates.

Do Ashkenazim score 40-50% Italian in ethnic estimates from commercial companies that give estimates throug directly assigned SNPs or "chunks" of similar SNPs concatenated too?

Yes and they can not be modelled that way. G25 is other thing. On Gedmatch if you delete Southern European for Ashkenazi modelling and choose only Levantines and Northern European distance will be huge, just because they can not be modelled with such populations, because of low NA percentage. If they would have admixture from French or Germans we would see exaggerated Atlantic %, just like Baltic. Gedmatch is more reliable in this case because on G25 50% Southern European + 50% Levantine would be similar to 30% Northern European + 70% Levantine because they use coordinates but on Gedmatch there would be completely different results because of different component scores

Yes, on tests where Ashkenazi category does not exist Ashkenazic Jews usually get approximately half Levantine half Italian, on DNAGenics for example

[gixajo]

Yes and they can not be modelled that way. G25 is other thing. On Gedmatch if you delete Southern European for Ashkenazi modelling and choose only Levantines and Northern European distance will be huge, just because they can not be modelled with such populations, because of low NA percentage. If they would have admixture from French or Germans we would see exaggerated Atlantic %, just like Baltic. Gedmatch is more reliable in this case because on G25 50% Southern European + 50% Levantine would be similar to 30% Northern European + 70% Levantine because they use coordinates but on Gedmatch there would be completely different results because of different component scores

Yes, on tests where Ashkenazi category does not exist Ashkenazic Jews usually get approximately half Levantine half Italian, on DNAGenics for example

I have seen that distances are higher if you try to model Ashkenazim just with Germans&Slavs and Levantines without Italians, although close enough to be inisde the distances considered acceptable (less than 3).

But if you want to do the test, I make the means...

[Abriekman]

I have seen that distances are higher if you try to model Ashkenazim just with Germans&Slavs and Levantines without Italians, although close enough to be inisde the distances considered acceptable (less than 3).

But if you want to do the test, I make the means...

On Global25 yes, we can see good distances, because we use coordinates instead of admixture proportions.

This is what we get using ancient Levantine, Mesopotamian, Iron Age Roman and Eastern European samples

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 1.5308% / 0.01530770
53.8 Middle_Eastern
29.8 Italian_Iron_Age
16.4 Eastern_European


Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:Levant _Beirut_ERoman,0.0859368,0.1406508,-0.0576052,-0.0909245,-0.0153875,-0.0312358,-0.0051112,-0.005596,0.007465,0.010524,0.0064958,-0.0090293,0.0178392,-0.0026492,-0.0099752,0.0170377,0.0113435,-0.0044975,0.0018855,0.0016572,0.0022772,0.0048845,-0.0008625,0.0039462,-0.0029638
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:Levant _Beirut_Hellenistic,0.064879,0.147252,-0.060339,-0.0809115,-0.0063085,-0.029144,-0.0024675,-0.013615,0.0018405,0.0059225,0.005115,-0.0006745,0.0079535,0.0033715,-0.012283,-0.002718,-0.00665,0.0012035,0.009867,-0.012944,0.0034315,0.004637,-0.0057925,-0.002109,-0.005688
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:Levant _LBN_Roman,0.0887823,0.1447132,-0.0554368,-0.085595,-0.0116175,-0.0282378,-0.0074612,-0.0076152,0.0076698,0.0121642,0.0031262,-0.01139,0.0130822,-0.0017893,-0.0105862,0.0093475,0.002673,-0.0006652,0.0025138,0.0022512,0.000655,0.0059042,-0.0035742,0.0001205,-0.005299
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:ITA_Ro me_Imperial:RMPR42,0.079676,0.149283,-0.061094,-0.091409,-0.011079,-0.028168,-0.003525,-0.010153,0.01309,0.010023,0.006171,-0.002548,0.01219,0.004266,-0.009229,0.007292,-0.001173,0.002027,0.004399,0.001251,-0.001248,0.008285,0.001849,0,-0.001916
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:ITA_Ro me_Imperial:RMPR70,0.09675,0.157407,-0.0445,-0.085595,-0.009232,-0.023706,-0.004465,-0.007615,0.010431,0.00656,0.004547,-0.003747,0.0055,-0.002064,-0.009772,-0.00053,0.00352,-0.00152,0.001383,0.004252,-0.010357,0.007048,0,-0.006025,0.002874
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:ITA_Ro me_Imperial:RMPR1547,0.080814,0.151314,-0.058831,-0.084626,-0.016003,-0.033746,-0.00517,-0.006923,0.011249,0.015126,0.000812,0.001199,0.009 812,0.00234,-0.004479,-0.001724,0.005346,0.006208,-0.006285,0.002376,0.001248,0.008408,-0.001356,-0.004338,-0.010059
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Levantine_Antiquity:ITA_Ro me_Imperial:RMPR1550,0.084229,0.140143,-0.047517,-0.074613,-0.012925,-0.026216,-0.0094,-0.007154,0.014112,0.005467,-0.000974,-0.002698,0.008622,-0.008257,0.001086,0.014983,0.014864,0.004814,-0.009302,0.002876,-0.001872,0.006183,0.004683,0.000843,-0.001676
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Mesopotamian_Antiquity:ITA _Rome_Imperial:RMPR67,0.080814,0.136081,-0.05506,-0.061047,-0.022466,-0.013666,0.00564,-0.008769,-0.014112,-0.007654,0.010068,-0.002698,0.008474,-0.002064,-0.01045,0.013922,0.008736,0.002534,-0.00176,-0.002001,-0.000873,-0.005812,0.005423,-0.002048,0.011137
Middle_Eastern:Possible_Mesopotamian_Antiquity:ITA _Rome_Imperial:RMPR68,0.091058,0.144205,-0.064111,-0.075259,-0.024004,-0.022869,-0.00047,-0.01523,-0.013499,-0.003462,0.003248,0.001049,0.005203,-0.003165,-0.000679,-0.004508,-0.010431,0.001647,0.007165,-0.007504,0.004991,-0.000866,0.004437,0.000602,0.000838
Italian_Iron_Age:ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA,0.12862,0 .145221,0.04714,0.005491,0.046162,0.00251,-0.00282,0.002769,0.021475,0.039727,-0.002923,0.012289,-0.021407,-0.016239,0.012622,0.000398,-0.003129,0.003421,0.00176,-0.001251,0.004492,0.003586,-0.00456,-0.003976,0.000239
Italian_Iron_Age:ITA_Rome_Latini_IA,0.127482,0.147 252,0.033187,-0.016796,0.044008,-0.008646,-0.00376,-0.004846,0.026588,0.052666,-0.002761,0.015137,-0.036719,-0.008533,-0.009093,0.013392,0.016037,-0.004687,0.003897,0.004127,0.00262,-0.00272,0.001972,-0.007712,-0.008742
Italian_Iron_Age:ITA_Sardinia_IA,0.1155305,0.15791 5,0.0203645,-0.04845,0.0432385,-0.021893,-0.0055225,0.001269,0.0291445,0.0507525,0.0013805,0 .012214,-0.019326,-0.012455,-0.006786,0.0053035,0.013234,-0.0010135,0.008673,-0.006628,-0.00443,0.0066155,-0.0071485,-0.00735,-0.000479
Italian_Iron_Age:ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA,0.133173,0.15 6392,0.0445,-0.00969,0.044008,-0.004462,0.00846,0.003,0.024543,0.044101,-0.002598,0.012289,-0.022448,-0.009634,-0.005429,-0.005834,0.00352,0.003167,0.006034,-0.007379,-0.008859,0.005317,-0.000863,-0.006989,-0.001796
Italian_Iron_Age:ITA_Boville_Ernica_IA,0.126344,0. 152329,0.034318,-0.014535,0.054164,-0.01506,-0.001175,0.005307,0.019634,0.041914,0.005196,0.010 79,-0.011001,-0.005643,0.004479,-0.016441,-0.010822,-0.001394,0.006662,-0.01113,0.007736,0.007172,-0.007641,-0.00241,0.008981
Italian_Iron_Age:ITA_Etruscan,0.126913,0.153853,0. 034695,-0.014212,0.0417,-0.005299,0.0024675,-0.002769,0.019839,0.0343515,-0.0023545,0.014237,-0.014792,-0.004335,-0.00475,-0.007823,-0.0028035,0.0052575,0.011564,-0.001188,-0.002558,0.003771,-6.15e-05,-0.0004215,-0.002694
Eastern_European:CZE_Early_Slav,0.12862,0.129988,0 .068259,0.046835,0.02739,0.013387,0.007285,0.01407 6,-0.001841,-0.018406,-0.000812,-0.004346,0.003717,0.007156,-0.010993,-0.003182,0.011604,-0.002027,-0.002388,-0.004752,0.005615,0.000618,0.001725,-0.000964,-0.006706


Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 1.8665% / 0.01866488
60.0 Middle_Eastern
40.0 German

Also good distance, if we use coordinates on G25.


When we use Eurogenes K13 for example

Target: Ashkenazi
Distance: 2.0481% / 2.04805095
62.4 Italian_Jewish
18.0 Algerian_Jewish
13.3 Lithuanian
6.3 Kurdish_Jewish

They are really close to other Jewish populations by admixture proportions with additional Baltic % from Eastern Europeans.

Without Jewish populations ( I am also using Germans and French in source )

Target: Ashkenazi
Distance: 2.7737% / 2.77371624
51.7 Lebanese_Druze
14.5 Italian_Sardinia
13.5 Italian_Trentino
11.9 Lithuanian
8.4 Algerian



Now with Northwestern Europeans and Levantines only


Target: Ashkenazi
Distance: 5.3393% / 5.33926927
25.1 Lebanese_Druze
23.4 French
22.1 Samaritan
10.7 Lebanese_Christian
10.1 Polish
8.6 Mozabite_Berber

Based on Ashkenazi component scores I think it is impossible for them to have any Western European admixture

[Davystayn]

They're much darker-haired than Scandinavians and also darker-haired than most Dutch and Germans (except Bavarians).

What has happened to you these days Tooting,
amongst all your interesting threads you used to come up with the odd comment like this, can see why people used to say you were Bloody. There is tons of data on eye colour and you know this yet you come with these one line anecdotes, thought you were better than that

[Tooting Carmen]

What has happened to you these days Tooting,
amongst all your interesting threads you used to come up with the odd comment like this, can see why people used to say you were Bloody. There is tons of data on eye colour and you know this yet you come with these one line anecdotes, thought you were better than that

LOL I could not stand Bloody. But I do think Brits are less blonde than other Europeans of a similar latitude, even if only by a few percentage points (in the case of Dutch and Germans).

[Megadorian]

Spaniards are much darker than they are perceived to be.

[Avicenna]

LIGHTER
Nuristani people are noticeably lighter than their neighbors despite being part of the same iranic ethnic group


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2aqroSebIQE

Nah that's a myth man. Nuristanis are roughly the same( probably lighter ), the difference is exaggerated but regarding their provincial neighbours like panjsher , laghman, badakshan , Kunar , nangarhar , it's not that much .

Random afghans


https://youtu.be/lGPCiQ07BpQ


https://youtu.be/aBqL2O4bApA

https://i.ibb.co/hZ3DBqY/Screenshot-20210406-011434-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/RBRz35j)
https://i.ibb.co/q0Mwmws/Screenshot-20210415-122636.jpg (https://ibb.co/8zDVPV5)
https://i.ibb.co/cXZm2gZ/Screenshot-20210402-202235.jpg (https://ibb.co/jZQp36Q)
https://i.ibb.co/gTTNR5M/Screenshot-20210404-100854.jpg (https://ibb.co/mqqkcLC)
https://i.ibb.co/qBJW78q/Screenshot-20210402-202351.jpg (https://ibb.co/hsYZLNQ)
secure free image hosting site (https://imgbb.com/)
https://i.ibb.co/YypMFxW/Screenshot-20210415-123532.jpg (https://ibb.co/rc4SRVt)
https://i.ibb.co/5ccX3RG/Screenshot-20210415-123524.jpg (https://ibb.co/XJJfPCj)
https://i.ibb.co/rM99dGn/Screenshot-20210415-123516.jpg (https://ibb.co/4Mkk1ZB)
https://i.ibb.co/P1GrCQd/Screenshot-20210415-123507.jpg (https://ibb.co/HGTKgdj)


https://youtu.be/z175t7cSk6E
https://i.ibb.co/WGHf31j/Screenshot-20210415-124410-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/ydNqRJ7)
https://i.ibb.co/Z2VdmDc/Screenshot-20210402-202158.jpg (https://ibb.co/fD2Mvwr)

[Avicenna]

LOL I could not stand Bloody, But I do think Brits are less blonde than other Europeans of a similar latitude, even if only by a few percentage points (in the case of Dutch and Germans).

Depends which region in Britain. One thing we can agree on is that they are certainly lighter skinned than the Germans and Scandos .

[Davystayn]

LOL I could not stand Bloody, But I do think Brits are less blonde than other Europeans of a similar latitude, even if only by a few percentage points (in the case of Dutch and Germans).

Well of course, havent seen anyone argue otherwise, true

[Blondie]

Cobra Gypsies wtf :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

[gixajo]

Spaniards are much darker than they are perceived to be.

Yes.

[gixajo]

Darker

I’m Irish and far from the pale sunburn and ginger you’d expect

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you had scored some % Spanish & Portuguese, I would have said that's why you're not blond with blue eyes being irish, but looking at your results (considering those are actually your results and that you are actually irish), your darkness will come ... I don't know ... from that 2% English.

It´s a joke, English british islanders, do not be angry with me british , and start bumping old threads about how dark we Spaniards are, without a doubt it is because of their Scottish percentage!;)

Anyway, indepently of your individual case, I don't think it's the norm in Ireland, What do you think?

I guess that you will be as common in Ireland, as Gota Type can be in Spain, who is far from the Spanish average, without being entirely a unique case, but a minority.

[CommonSense]

Lighter: Jews, Caucasians, North Italians
Darker: Iberians, Balkan Gypsies, Serbs/Montenegrins, Bosniaks, southern Croats.

[TheOldNorth]

basque who are more EEF and WHG then nearly all western europeans and yet appear to be no darker then northern french most of the time

[Dr_Maul]

Dagestanis seem to generally be darker than Chechens/Circassians despite having much more steppe admixture.

[TheOldNorth]

106949

I think they are actually really similar to Irish people like myself

Also what are the average numbers for EEF and WHG for them cause mine is 37% WHG and 25% EHG





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

106969

[TheOldNorth]

I found this panel spreadsheet

My WHG matches that of Nordic battle axe and British Celtic

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210416/208b187126261ca880c3d5099e566633.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210416/08a38409a5316f4adc59b2366dae7841.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

which gedmatch project is that?

[Roy]

Spaniards are much darker than they are perceived to be.

Yup.

This is actually very common for ethnic Spaniards.

https://biografia24.pl/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/xavi.png

[gixajo]

Yup.

This is actually very common for ethnic Spaniards.

G]

And do you think people here perceived Spaniards lighter than him?