How can Turkish people from Western Anatolia be closer to Iranians than they are to most Europeans?

[reboun]

I looked at some GEDmatch samples from provinces from Western Anatolia and all of those samples are closer to Iranians than they are to most of the Europeans. Turkish people from those provinces phenotypically look much more like Southern and Central Europeans than they look like Iranians. However, genetic tells the other way around. I know that phenotype and genotype are not 100% correlated but in this case, what causes these phenotype differences other than genetics?

[Dr_Maul]

https://i.pinimg.com/600x315/55/3c/2b/553c2bb1eb23bd007032682974562ef5.jpg

https://cdn.britannica.com/27/198827-050-1C027B7D/Earth-power-potential.jpg

[reboun]

https://i.pinimg.com/600x315/55/3c/2b/553c2bb1eb23bd007032682974562ef5.jpg

https://cdn.britannica.com/27/198827-050-1C027B7D/Earth-power-potential.jpg

Yes, climate is probably an important factor here.

[lockdownboredom]

Last I heard Mongoloid DNA peaks in the western half of Anatolia.

[Kyp]

Turkish people from those provinces phenotypically look much more like Southern and Central Europeans

I'll disagree here

[Petalpusher]

It's simple, the western Anatolians who went into Europe during the neolithic, left some empty space for more Iranian type of farmers to settle from the east. Today they are relatively very far from the Anatolians that were living there.

[reboun]

I'll disagree here

Why? I guess Western Anatolians and Iranians have significant phenotype difference on average.

[Kyp]

Why? I guess Western Anatolians and Iranians have significant phenotype difference on average.

a) I didnt say they look like Iranians


b) Here is a Turk from Western Province inbetween Central Europeans. It's ridiculous to claim western turks look close to Central Europeans:

https://www.lkz.de/cms_media/module_img/2114/1057452_1_detailbig_Ilkay_Guendogan_M_nimmt_am_Tra ining_der_Nationalmannschaft_teil._Foto_Bernd_This sen_dpa.jpg

[reboun]

a) I didnt say they look like Iranians


b) Here is a Turk from Western Province inbetween Central Europeans. It's ridiculous to claim western turks look close to Central Europeans:



There are always exceptions but I lived in İzmir for a while and I don't think most people here look more Iranian then they look Central European.

[CommonSense]

On G25 this is particularly noticeable, on it they're closer to Persians than they are to Greek islanders. The Turkic tribes who settled in Anatolia also brought some Iranian-like admix with them.

[mergen3]

Western anatolian Turks phenotype are neither Central European nor Iranian.
The mongoloid ratio of 10-18% is the main factor that distinguishes it from others in appearance. Greek ancestors(40-60%) of the west anatolian Turks mostly have the same genetics as the islander Greeks.
Possible reason for the Oghuz groups to mix with eastern Iranian groups when they were in central Asia.
When I look at these people, I find similarity with Caucasian peoples, not Southern, Central European or Persian https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210427/8e9dad3ba6773092b5a3212eb611369a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210427/4d269cab266c0cee5fb031c170f3b656.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210427/935afb90d928694471f386497f12447d.jpg

[reboun]

Western anatolian Turks phenotype are neither Central European nor Iranian.


I still think they look more Southern or Central European than they look Iranian.

[chinshen]

That is because you like to see them as such even though others are showing that they don't.

[Altaylı]

Western anatolian Turks phenotype are neither Central European nor Iranian.
The mongoloid ratio of 10-18% is the main factor that distinguishes it from others in appearance. Greek ancestors(40-60%) of the west anatolian Turks mostly have the same genetics as the islander Greeks.
Possible reason for the Oghuz groups to mix with eastern Iranian groups when they were in central Asia.
When I look at these people, I find similarity with Caucasian peoples, not Southern, Central European or Persian https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210427/8e9dad3ba6773092b5a3212eb611369a.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210427/4d269cab266c0cee5fb031c170f3b656.jpg


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210427/935afb90d928694471f386497f12447d.jpg

Or common BMAC ancestor of Turkics and Iranics
Turkics were eurasian right? Early Turkics have BMAC admixture too
Maybe This is an another reason

[mergen3]

There are always exceptions but I lived in İzmir for a while and I don't think most people here look more Iranian then they look Central European.Öncelikle İzmir bir büyükşehir. Ve bu şehirin %15-20'si Boşnak, Arnavut ve Pomak gibi gruplardan oluşmuştur. Buna %20 Balkan Türklerini eklersen fenotip olarak belki Yunanistana yakinsayabilir. Fakat bunların dışındaki gruplar özellikle Yerli İzmirliler ne iranlilara ne de güney avrupalılara benzer. Adalı Yunanlara yakinsayabilirler fakat genede kendilerine özel bir fenotipleri var. İzmir'in cok kozmopolit bir yapısı var. %20 civarında dogu ve güney anadolu'dan gelen Kürtler ve Türkler var. Bati Anadolu Türklerini incelemek istiyorsan Denizli ve Muğla guzel bir ornek olabilir

Redmi Note 7 cihazımdan Tapatalk kullanılarak gönderildi

[reboun]

Öncelikle İzmir bir büyükşehir. Ve bu şehirin %15-20'si Boşnak, Arnavut ve Pomak gibi gruplardan oluşmuştur. Buna %20 Balkan Türklerini eklersen fenotip olarak belki Yunanistana yakinsayabilir. Fakat bunların dışındaki gruplar özellikle Yerli İzmirliler ne iranlilara ne de güney avrupalılara benzer. Adalı Yunanlara yakinsayabilirler fakat genede kendilerine özel bir fenotipleri var. İzmir'in cok kozmopolit bir yapısı var. %20 civarında dogu ve güney anadolu'dan gelen Kürtler ve Türkler var. Bati Anadolu Türklerini incelemek istiyorsan Denizli ve Muğla guzel bir ornek olabilir

Redmi Note 7 cihazımdan Tapatalk kullanılarak gönderildi

Saydığınız topluluklar da İzmir'in yerlileri sayılır, sonuçta onların da İzmir'i memleketleri olarak benimsediklerini düşünüyorum.

[mergen3]

Saydığınız topluluklar da İzmir'in yerlileri sayılır, sonuçta onların da İzmir'i memleketleri olarak benimsediklerini düşünüyorum.Şöyle hepsini bir potada ele alırsak İzmir ve çoğu Bati Anadolu şehri Güney Avrupa'ya yakinsayabilir. Fakat orta avrupa cok farklı bir olay. Bosnaklar dışında onlara benzeyen bir grup olduğunu düşünmüyorum. Cogu Boşnakta(yeni nesil) İzmir'de gördüğüm kadarıyla Türklerle evlilik yapmış.

Redmi Note 7 cihazımdan Tapatalk kullanılarak gönderildi

[Pine]

in before 20+ pages of cope

[reboun]

in before 20+ pages of cope

What does it mean?

[reboun]

EEF (Early European Farmer) connection makes sense.

[Negah]

I'll disagree here

I agree as someone who has been to Turkey, while Turks tend be lighter than much of mena yet they don’t look European, they look Anatolian

[placebo]

I'll disagree here

yeah we see the differences but from the outside, pigmentation important than facial features imo. most turks have same pigmentation as balkan or southern euro people. that's why people think turks more like southern euros than menas.

i think we are most look like caucasus people. (both western and eastern turkey)

[reboun]

I agree as someone who has been to Turkey, while Turks tend be lighter than much of mena yet they don’t look European, they look Anatolian

Actually I also don't think Western Anatolians look like Central Europeans but I observed that they usually look more Central and Southern European than they look Syrian/Iraqi/Iranian.

[Avicenna]

Actually I also don't think Western Anatolians look like Central Europeans but I observed that they usually look more Central and Southern European than they look Syrian/Iraqi/Iranian.

I digaree here , yes Turks are lighter but they are not closer to most south euros than to Iranians / Syrians .

[Sora]

I agree with Mergen. Most of the Western Anatolian metropolitans are heavily mixed and the citycenters of those metropolitans are ethnically(don't confuse with nationality) at least 50% non-Turkish or mixed-with-Turkish. Even, if we exclude everyone except Anatolian Turks native to those cities.

Foe example; some sources say İzmir is at most 60%-70% Turk(40%-50% if we exclude Balkan Turks & Anatolian Turk immigrants from other provinces, I guess). If we go to countysides of Izmir, then the percentage of course will increase. But if we go to the center of the citycenter, then it may fall into 20%-30%.

If we don't count Balkan & other Anatolian immigrants, then İzmir can look more homogenous. Even less European if we exclude Balkan immigrants(even Balkan Turks). Yes, Western Turks mostly look more European(especially Med) than Turks from other regions but I don't think they can pass as Central European (maybe except some individuals)

[reboun]

I digaree here , yes Turks are lighter but they are not closer to most south euros than to Iranians / Syrians .

Genetically, Western Anatolian Turks might be closer to Syrians and Iranian but phenotype-wise they are closer to Southern Europeans and even Central Europeans. I lived in İzmir for a while.

[reboun]

I agree with Mergen. Most of the Western Anatolian metropolitans are heavily mixed and the citycenters of those metropolitans are ethnically(don't confuse with nationality) at least 50% non-Turkish or mixed-with-Turkish. Even, if we exclude everyone except Anatolian Turks native to those cities.

Foe example; some sources say İzmir is at most 60%-70% Turk(40%-50% if we exclude Balkan Turks & Anatolian Turk immigrants from other provinces, I guess). If we go to countysides of Izmir, then the percentage of course will increase. But if we go to the center of the citycenter, then it may fall into 20%-30%.

If we don't count Balkan & other Anatolian immigrants, then İzmir can look more homogenous. Even less European if we exclude Balkan immigrants(even Balkan Turks). Yes, Western Turks mostly look more European(especially Med) than Turks from other regions but I don't think they can pass as Central European (maybe except some individuals)

I actually meant whole population of İzmir. Yes, they might not be looking Central European but in my opinion they look less Iranian than they look Central European.

[Avicenna]

Genetically, Western Anatolian Turks might be closer to Syrians and Iranian but phenotype-wise they are closer to Southern Europeans and even Central Europeans. I lived in İzmir for a while.

Central Europeans ? What are you smoking ?

[reboun]

Central Europeans ? What are you smoking ?

Yes, Central Europeans too.

[Avicenna]

Genetically, Western Anatolian Turks might be closer to Syrians and Iranian but phenotype-wise they are closer to Southern Europeans and even Central Europeans. I lived in İzmir for a while.


https://youtu.be/Im2gVWc2-hU

To say they look closer to central Europeans than to Syrians or Iranians just shows that you are either ignorant on the phenotypes of your neighbours or you have a severe case of OWD.

^^ video is from.izmir

[Avicenna]

Yes, Central Europeans too.

Good joke man

[Avicenna]

Yes, Central Europeans too.

I love how you say "too". Most Turks still look closer to other west Asians than balkanites bro .

[Mejgusu]

Genetically, Western Anatolian Turks might be closer to Syrians and Iranian but phenotype-wise they are closer to Southern Europeans and even Central Europeans. I lived in İzmir for a while.

Like Turkey, Syria and Iran are very diverse regarding look and ethnic composition. There are Syrians who could pass as Southern European or Balkan and there are some who look like Indians. I know some Iranians here, some wouldn’t look atypical in Western Turkey. You can’t compare the situation in Turkey with the situation in Iran, first one has significant population from Balkans who can look European, still Central Europeans can be easily distinguished from them often. It is wrong putting people into a specific stereotype, regardless of Turks or Syrians or Iranians. And tbh, who cares whether Turks look more like Iranians(or not), is that something bad? I was just one time in Izmir but never noticed something special.

[Fedora]

Your threads always seem trollish.

[reboun]

To say they look closer to central Europeans than to Syrians or Iranians just shows that you are either ignorant on the phenotypes of your neighbours or you have a severe case of OWD.


I don't know, but my observations say they have relatively more phenotype overlap with Southern and Central European than Iranians or Syrians.

[reboun]

And tbh, who cares whether Turks look more like Iranians(or not), is that something bad?

Of course it is not bad, why would it be. I just told my observation.

[reboun]

Your threads always seem trollish.

Okay...

[princeton90]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?345890-How-can-Turkish-people-from-Western-Anatolia-be-closer-to-Iranians-than-they-are-to-most-Europeans&p=7184410&viewfull=1#post7184410 I watched the video in this post. I think the OP is either trolling us or he has no idea how Central Europeans, Iranians, Syrians look like.

[reboun]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?345890-How-can-Turkish-people-from-Western-Anatolia-be-closer-to-Iranians-than-they-are-to-most-Europeans&p=7184410&viewfull=1#post7184410 I watched the video in this post. I think the OP is either trolling us or he has no idea how Central Europeans, Iranians, Syrians look like.

I am not trolling. Maybe I've never been to the places that you count but watched a lot of videos about those countries.

[Avicenna]

I don't know, but my observations say they have relatively more phenotype overlap with Southern and Central European than Iranians or Syrians.

And everyone on this forum and their neighbour is telling you are wrong . This is delusion my friend .

[reboun]

And everyone on this forum and their neighbour is telling you are wrong . This is delusion my friend .

It is not delusion. Everybody might have different opinions but in my view, Aegean Turks look more European than they look Iranian or Syrian. Most of my friends in real life also think like me.

[Avicenna]

It is not delusion. Everybody might have different opinions but in my view, Aegean Turks look more European than they look Iranian or Syrian. Most of my friends in real life also think like me.

You would have a point if you meant only Greeks or Albanians , but central Europeans ? Like Hungarians , czechs , Germans ? Are you for real?

[reboun]

You would have a point if you meant only Greeks or Albanians , but central Europeans ? Like Hungarians , czechs , Germans ? Are you for real?

Maybe not Germans but Aegean Turks have more phenotypical overlap with Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks than with Iranian and Syrians, in my opinion.

[Avicenna]

Maybe not Germans but Aegean Turks have more phenotypical overlap with Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks than with Iranian and Syrians, in my opinion.

No they don't mate .

[викторслава]

Turkish people from those provinces phenotypically look much more like Southern and Central Europeans than they look like Iranians.

i have to disagree, i know a turk from izmir who looks like they are from turkmenistan

[reboun]

No they don't mate .

Okay, that is your opinion but my opinion is the other way around.

[reboun]

i have to disagree, i know a turk from izmir who looks like they are from turkmenistan

There might be exceptions because Turkish people are phenotypically very diverse. Someone from Turkey can look Souther European, Central European, Arabian, or Central Asian. As far as I observed, there are more Central and Southern European looking people on Aegean cost of Turkey than Iranian or Syrian looking people.

[Avicenna]

Okay, that is your opinion but my opinion is the other way around.

Do you think Turks are some lost European tribe in the midst of brown middle easterners lol? You overestimate your lightness and underestimate the rest of west Asia .

[reboun]

Do you think Turks are some lost European tribe in the midst of brown middle easterners lol? You overestimate your lightness and underestimate the rest of west Asia .

I don’t think Turks are some lost European tribe in West Asia but I just did an observation and I think Western Anatolia’s climate being closer to Europe’s and the fact that Europeans once lived in Western Anatolia make sense.

[Avicenna]

I don’t think Turks are some lost European tribe in West Asia but I just did an observation and I think Western Anatolia’s climate being closer to Europe’s and the fact that Europeans once lived in Western Anatolia make sense.

Your climate is Mediterranean especially around the aeagan sea not central European my friend. Let's not beat around the bush , the most Turkic influence is found in Western Anatolia right ? Like I said , if you make a comparison to Greeks and Albanians I understand , but central Europeans never lived in western Anatolia .

[reboun]

Your climate is Mediterranean especially around the aeagan sea not central European my friend. Let's not beat around the bush , the most Turkic influence is found in Western Anatolia right ? Like I said , if you make a comparison to Greeks and Albanians I understand , but central Europeans never lived in western Anatolia .

Central Europeans themselves didn't live in Western Anatolia but good portion of them, Early European Farmers, once lived in Western Anatolia.

[princeton90]

I’ve heard West Asians are really dark-washed in the other West Asians’ mind. Most probably, the OP thinks Iranians and Syrians as way darker than they really are.

[Avicenna]

Central Europeans themselves didn't live in Western Anatolia but good portion of them, Early European Farmers, once lived in Western Anatolia.

Oh right , steppe nomads also lived in Russia so by your logic afghans look russian , great thanks man :)

[Avicenna]

I’ve heard West Asians are really dark-washed in the other West Asians’ mind. Most probably, the OP thinks Iranians and Syrians as way darker than they really are.

OP is overestimating how dark Iranians and Syrians really are. In all honesty europeans won't be able to tell them apart, the only thing that would be is that western Turks especially are more "westernised " and are lighter generally .

[Leto]

OP is overestimating how dark Iranians and Syrians really are. In all honesty europeans won't be able to tell them apart, the only thing that would be is that western Turks especially are more "westernised " and are lighter generally .
Yep, Turks are widely seen as Middle Eastern in white countries. But undoubtedly there are more white-passers in Turkey than in Syria and Iran (I think Syria has more light people than Iran does)
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/8f/79/cb/8f79cb01ef1a32e6fdccac2097468786.jpg
Such people would be rarer in both Syria and Iran.

[Altaylı]

I think Turks are diverse because of ethnic diversity in Turkey
average Turk is Med types and anatolid(East Med Armenoid mix) according to me

But if i look myself, i look something Turanid East Med mix

[Avicenna]

Yep, Turks are widely seen as Middle Eastern in white countries. But undoubtedly there are more white-passers in Turkey than in Syria and Iran (I think Syria has more light people than Iran does)
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/8f/79/cb/8f79cb01ef1a32e6fdccac2097468786.jpg
Such people would be rarer in both Syria and Iran.

Yes Leto hence why I keep saying that "yes Turks ARE lighter , ofcourse " but people over exaggerate differences . To say Turks look more like central euros ( CENTRAL?!) Than Syrians or Iranians is absurd as saying that Italians look more like the Irish than Greeks .

[Leto]

I think Turks are diverse because of ethnic diversity in Turkey
average Turk is Med types and anatolid(East Med Armenoid mix) according to me

But if i look myself, i look something Turanid East Med mix
I haven't seen you, you can send me your photograph :D

[Avicenna]

I haven't seen you, you can send me your photograph :D

He looks ultra central Asian haha

[Altaylı]

I haven't seen you, you can send me your photograph :D

:D i look something Turkmen if you wonder too much i can send it sometime :D

[Altaylı]

I saw central euro or slav looking Turks before but if we look average Turk i don't think average Turk look central euro

[reboun]

OP is overestimating how dark Iranians and Syrians really are. In all honesty europeans won't be able to tell them apart, the only thing that would be is that western Turks especially are more "westernised " and are lighter generally .

There are more Central European types (Alpines, Dinarids, Pontids, Gorids) in Aegean coasts of Turkey than Iranian/Syrian types (Iranids, Orientalids). This is the basis of my claim.

[Avicenna]

There are more Central European types (Alpines, Dinarids, Pontids, Gorids) in Aegean coasts of Turkey than Iranian/Syrian types (Iranids, Orientalids). This is the basis of my claim.

Provide this with video evidences or else it's just your pointless opinion

Just to remind you

IZMIR


https://youtu.be/Im2gVWc2-hU

[Avicenna]

There are more Central European types (Alpines, Dinarids, Pontids, Gorids) in Aegean coasts of Turkey than Iranian/Syrian types (Iranids, Orientalids). This is the basis of my claim.

The fact that you provide such extensive details of phentoype for western turkey and then labelling Syria and Iran as oreintalid or iranid only speaks volumes .

[Avicenna]

Turks from kadikoy northwestern turkey


https://youtu.be/s5CGMmrfg9o

Istanbul


https://youtu.be/qxtLLYUfWKE

Czech Republic


https://youtu.be/41o060NhbJg

Kabul


https://youtu.be/GX9MjxeNGiE

[reboun]

Turks from kadikoy northwestern turkey


https://youtu.be/s5CGMmrfg9o

Istanbul


https://youtu.be/qxtLLYUfWKE

Czech Republic


https://youtu.be/41o060NhbJg

Kabul


https://youtu.be/GX9MjxeNGiE

Czechs in the video might be more Aegean Turkish looking than Afghans in the other video, in my opinion.

[Avicenna]

Czechs in the video might be more Aegean Turkish looking than Afghans in the other video, in my opinion.

Ofcourse they are ;)

[safrax]

Central Europeans ? What are you smoking ?

Yeni Raki

[Avicenna]

Czechs in the video might be more Aegean Turkish looking than Afghans in the other video, in my opinion.

Oh come on man , these people still look more Turkish looking than Czechs in that video

https://i.ibb.co/gWwLmhb/Screenshot-20210430-213524-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/VCDcJ50)
https://i.ibb.co/mzzDwQm/Screenshot-20210430-213511-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/pXX08Cg)
https://i.ibb.co/MhTvQCj/Screenshot-20210430-221205-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/FWvrCDf)
https://i.ibb.co/ZSgmB5q/Screenshot-20210430-213425-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/KDsw2dT)
https://i.ibb.co/sKkKFYP/Screenshot-20210430-220813-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/dP1PQYc)
https://i.ibb.co/0M7CL7F/Screenshot-20210430-213407-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/hW6BN6Z)
https://i.ibb.co/w0gjZMz/Screenshot-20210430-214613-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/tmKFw8J)
https://i.ibb.co/Jkcy9zs/Screenshot-20210430-214550-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/GPdtqV5)
https://i.ibb.co/qdnfrQb/Screenshot-20210430-214457-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/hyMjmzp)
https://i.ibb.co/y6h7NFg/Screenshot-20210430-214429-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/jyVs8k3)
https://i.ibb.co/y8R1tQF/Screenshot-20210430-214415-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/rZtSYw2)
https://i.ibb.co/WKtTZmB/Screenshot-20210430-214234-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/kc1djNq)
https://i.ibb.co/7Cx5kRH/Screenshot-20210430-214214-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/NCgPTmX)
site to upload photos (https://imgbb.com/)

Compared to

https://i.ibb.co/1GYkH2Q/Screenshot-20210430-222019-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/WvNLSK5)
https://i.ibb.co/6mmqFY3/Screenshot-20210430-222110-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/1LL4TZD)
https://i.ibb.co/FxBdLxx/Screenshot-20210430-222104-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/Vjvkcjj)
https://i.ibb.co/8c7YzJw/Screenshot-20210430-222123-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/zJ4681g)
https://i.ibb.co/8mkPvCc/Screenshot-20210430-222117-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/D1dwcJp)
https://i.ibb.co/JrYVcvC/Screenshot-20210430-222155-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/NW05F97)
https://i.ibb.co/nbk6Y9F/Screenshot-20210430-222142-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/s23bNnZ)
https://i.ibb.co/7CP5sWr/Screenshot-20210430-222213-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/H46s5zG)
https://i.ibb.co/zR5NZbB/Screenshot-20210430-222208-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/DCbLQkv)
site to upload photos (https://imgbb.com/)

[reboun]

Oh come on man , these people still look more Turkish looking than Czechs in that video


In fact, the term “looking Turkish” is confusing since Turkish people are phenotypically very diverse. Both group of people in the photos might pass in Turkey. But if I am asked which group of people pass relatively better in western coasts of Turkey, I would say the second set.

[Avicenna]

In fact, the term “looking Turkish” is confusing since Turkish people are phenotypically very diverse. Both group of people in the photos might pass in Turkey. But if I am asked which group of people pass relatively better in western coasts of Turkey, I would say the second set.
Like I said please , show me video evidences of Turks like that in bulk please , I'm waiting . Don't be fooled by the lack of western clothing in the first set, if they wear western clothing etc you will not blink an eye .

[reboun]

Like I said please , show me video evidences of Turks like that in bulk please , I'm waiting . Don't be fooled by the lack of western clothing in the first set, if they wear western clothing etc you will not blink an eye .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdBtmW_4Dhk

[Avicenna]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdBtmW_4Dhk

Lol and THESE people look closer to central euros than Syrians / Iranians?! Sure, their style and clothing are very Europeanised , no doubt , but you are fooling yourself bro.

[reboun]

Lol and THESE people look closer to central euros than Syrians / Iranians?! Sure, their style and clothing are very Europeanised , no doubt , but you are fooling yourself bro.

Okay bro, maybe we are looking from different perspectives and therefore I see them as looking more Central European than Syrian or Iranian while you think the other way around.

[Avicenna]

Okay bro, maybe we are looking from different perspectives and therefore I see them as looking more Central European than Syrian or Iranian while you think the other way around.

Agree to disagree . Gentleman's agreement .

[Nomad]

Some Iranic groups integrated into Turkic groups successfully and they adopted their culture&language in different timelines of Turkification period.

[Faklon]

Probably Central Europe doesn't include kebabs from Augsburg, only strudels

[Sora]

Oh come on man , these people still look more Turkish looking than Czechs in that video


I must admit that Afghans look more familiar to me than Czech. Even some of those Afghans can pass in my homecity, Tokat(a Central Turkey city a bit closer to Easternparts) without any problem. Although Tokat is at least 80%-85% ethnically Turkish and those Afghans could fit there as an ethnic Anatolian Turk from Tokat ;):thumb001:

[Sora]

I agree with Avicenna & Kyp. Central European looking Turks are only minority here (but South European looking Turks are seperate issue and there are plenty of them). So, looking more Iranian(or let's include the entire West Asia) and being genetically closer to West Asians of a (especially the Anatolian ones) Turk makes more sense than looking more & being genetically closer to Central Europeans.

[reboun]

I agree with Avicenna & Kyp. Central European looking Turks are only minority here (but South European looking Turks are seperate issue and there are plenty of them). So, looking more Iranian(or let's include the entire West Asia) and being genetically closer to West Asians of a (especially the Anatolian ones) Turk makes more sense than looking more & being genetically closer to Central Europeans.

I actually think Western Anatolians do not look different from Southern Europeans. But they do not look Central European, Syrian, or Iranian at all. However, my foresight say that the Czech people that Avicenna posted moght pass relatively better in Western Anatolia than Afghan people do. Maybe I am decepted because of those people’s clothing style or another reason which I don’t really know.

[placebo]

i don't know why people always think western turkey has european looking people and rest is swarthy middle eastern. western, central and eastern turkey is not much different. i have western anatolian, caucasus and balkan roots and there is not much difference between my relatives.

we are diverse but this diversity equally in all regions.

we turks have european, middle eastern, central asian and caucasus looking people and average is best fit in caucasus.

[princeton90]

I actually think Western Anatolians do not look different from Southern Europeans. But they do not look Central European, Syrian, or Iranian at all. However, my foresight say that the Czech people that Avicenna posted moght pass relatively better in Western Anatolia than Afghan people do. Maybe I am decepted because of those people’s clothing style or another reason which I don’t really know.

IMHO, you are eager to see more Central-European-looking people in the region you live rather than seeing Iranic/Syrian-looking people and therefore you think Czechs pass better in Western Anatolia, do you?

[Hektor12]

To be honest im getting more suspected by this guy's every new topic. Anyways, i have no idea who started this but of course Turks generally dont look central european. Its only a minority. However, Turks also dont look Afghan-Paki or Iranian; this groups have disting looks which is easily recognizable here. In my neighborhood theres one Afghan man and a few Iranians, they're typical looking for their ethnicity and very different compared to local people, you cant pass them as local.

[GoalPoacher]

So let's talk about some facts:

1-Western Turks are still Anatolian Turks. They're not significantly close to any other ethnicity. Check this:

https://i.ibb.co/41zK7Fh/northwest.png

Yes, the lightest and most European looking Western Turks are genetically WAY closer to a swarthy af Cilician Turk than to any actual European.

2-When I put Turkmen_Uzbekistan and bunch of Greek groups in the source and model Western Turks with these, this is what I get:

https://i.ibb.co/6NB2Mnr/west.png

So it seems that native population of pre-Turkish Western Anatolia was most likely in between other Anatolians and Mainland Greeks in varying degrees, that makes them close to Aegean Islanders. Heck, they're not even like proper South Europeans let alone being close to Central Europeans!

3-In such high distances phenotype does not have to correlate with genetics. For example:

https://i.ibb.co/K5dV0dG/italians.png

Are Italians from those regions looks-wise closer to Sardinians or the Lebanese? Of course Sardinians, anyone who has two eyes can see that. I can give tons of other examples like this.

[Avicenna]

To be honest im getting more suspected by this guy's every new topic. Anyways, i have no idea who started this but of course Turks generally dont look central european. Its only a minority. However, Turks also dont look Afghan-Paki or Iranian; this groups have disting looks which is easily recognizable here. In my neighborhood theres one Afghan man and a few Iranians, they're typical looking for their ethnicity and very different compared to local people, you cant pass them as local.

I agree certainly . But I will say that the times I've been to turkey me and my whole family always get guessed as Turkish . And no it's not like a simple hello in Turkish or something but they literally get shocked when we tell them we are not Turks. Anyways , I feel like wetserj Turks have a much better chance at passing in Greece / Albania than central Europe , like you say, Turks are diverse .

[Avicenna]

So let's talk about some facts:

1-Western Turks are still Anatolian Turks. They're not significantly close to any other ethnicity. Check this:

https://i.ibb.co/41zK7Fh/northwest.png

Yes, the lightest and most European looking Western Turks are genetically WAY closer to a swarthy af Cilician Turk than to any actual European.

2-When I put Turkmen_Uzbekistan and bunch of Greek groups in the source and model Western Turks with these, this is what I get:

https://i.ibb.co/6NB2Mnr/west.png

So it seems that native population of pre-Turkish Western Anatolia was most likely in between other Anatolians and Mainland Greeks in varying degrees, that makes them close to Aegean Islanders. Heck, they're not even like proper South Europeans let alone being close to Central Europeans!

3-In such high distances phenotype does not have to correlate with genetics. For example:

https://i.ibb.co/K5dV0dG/italians.png

Are Italians from those regions looks-wise closer to Sardinians or the Lebanese? Of course Sardinians, anyone who has two eyes can see that. I can give tons of other examples like this.

Thanks for that . Also this is why we shouldn't rely too much on autosomal calculators and include dstats and IBS analysis. To think that Italians are closer to Lebanese Muslims than Sardinians is just bizzarre.

[reboun]

IMHO, you are eager to see more Central-European-looking people in the region you live rather than seeing Iranic/Syrian-looking people and therefore you think Czechs pass better in Western Anatolia, do you?

Of course no. This is simply racism :eek:

[reboun]

To be honest im getting more suspected by this guy's every new topic. Anyways, i have no idea who started this but of course Turks generally dont look central european. Its only a minority. However, Turks also dont look Afghan-Paki or Iranian; this groups have disting looks which is easily recognizable here. In my neighborhood theres one Afghan man and a few Iranians, they're typical looking for their ethnicity and very different compared to local people, you cant pass them as local.

I don't say Western Anatolians look like Central Europeans as a group but I say they have slightly more overlap with Central European types such as Alpine, Dinarid, Pontid than Iranian/Syrian types such as Iranid, Orientalid, Assyroid.

[reboun]

So let's talk about some facts:

1-Western Turks are still Anatolian Turks. They're not significantly close to any other ethnicity. Check this:

https://i.ibb.co/41zK7Fh/northwest.png

Yes, the lightest and most European looking Western Turks are genetically WAY closer to a swarthy af Cilician Turk than to any actual European.

2-When I put Turkmen_Uzbekistan and bunch of Greek groups in the source and model Western Turks with these, this is what I get:

https://i.ibb.co/6NB2Mnr/west.png

So it seems that native population of pre-Turkish Western Anatolia was most likely in between other Anatolians and Mainland Greeks in varying degrees, that makes them close to Aegean Islanders. Heck, they're not even like proper South Europeans let alone being close to Central Europeans!

3-In such high distances phenotype does not have to correlate with genetics. For example:

https://i.ibb.co/K5dV0dG/italians.png

Are Italians from those regions looks-wise closer to Sardinians or the Lebanese? Of course Sardinians, anyone who has two eyes can see that. I can give tons of other examples like this.

Then we need to ask "Why do Sardinians look more Italian than Lebanese do although Lebanese are closer to Italians genetically?"

[Immanenz]

I don't say Western Anatolians look like Central Europeans as a group but I say they have slightly more overlap with Central European types such as Alpine, Dinarid, Pontid than Iranian/Syrian types such as Iranid, Orientalid, Assyroid.

:picard2:
i thought Turks are exclusivly Paleo Atlantid.

[reboun]

:picard2:
i thought Turks are exclusivly Paleo Atlantid.

No :confused:

[Immanenz]

No :confused:

Get out of your basement- you dont look at all like Czechs. If you are Alpine/ Dinaric- they are already Troender or Albino Aliens or something.

[reboun]

Get out of your basement- you dont look at all like Czechs. If you are Alpine/ Dinaric- they are already Troender.

Alpine and Dinarid are not rare in Western Anatolia. By the way, I didn't say Western Anatolians look like Czech but said Western Anatolians have more phenotype overlap with Czechs than with Iranians/Syrians.

[Immanenz]

Alpine and Dinarid are not rare in Western Anatolia. By the way, I didn't say Western Anatolians look like Czech but said Western Anatolians have more phenotype overlap with Czechs than with Iranians/Syrians.

there are simply not enough terms to describe things. You simply have no clue how Czechs look. You dont look like Syrians or Iranians on average, but you do overlapp with them much more- no matter which terms is used.

[reboun]

Bro, there are simply not enough terms to describe things. You simply have no clue how Czechs look. You dont look like Syrians or Iranians on average, but you do overlapp with them much more- no matter which terms is used.

I don't know but Czechs seem to be more passable in western coasts of Anatolia than Iranians and Syrians do. Maybe I am looking from a different perspective.

[Immanenz]

I don't know but Czechs seem to be more passable in western coasts of Anatolia than Iranians and Syrians do. Maybe I am looking from a different perspective.

No, you dont have no clue- nobody of these Czechs can pass in Western Anatolia- you are just a troll.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/ZnPBOYsLh9YczzsbIGvF30VqWwRNp1y6EQS5oHooZZOA7YTfYN Vv4zNpZB-HjQoBDmKyO-gY3cdq_MLsJRcvDtPOV8OHWiq5x4c

[reboun]

No, you dont have no clue- nobody of these Czechs can pass in Western Anatolia- you are just a troll.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/ZnPBOYsLh9YczzsbIGvF30VqWwRNp1y6EQS5oHooZZOA7YTfYN Vv4zNpZB-HjQoBDmKyO-gY3cdq_MLsJRcvDtPOV8OHWiq5x4c

I didn't open the thread for trolling purposes but I think it is time to request the deletion of this thread.

[Charlemagne7]

LOL at this troll thread...

Turks:

https://static.dw.com/image/49125257_303.jpg

https://64.media.tumblr.com/b83fabf7de5e3e5dfe67d0a9ccfdad39/tumblr_onn196BoQG1vu8p34o1_640.jpg
https://turkeypurge.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/000-1.jpg

https://s3.eu-north-1.amazonaws.com/images.free-apply.com/uni/gallery/lg/1079200023/0c406c800c3a558178152cbb3ba7aa8cc0b1fcba.jpg

Czechs:

https://editorial01.shutterstock.com/wm-preview-1500/7792128a/89514b22/czech-republic-soccer-friendly-may-2006-shutterstock-editorial-7792128a.jpg

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/F3D478/czech-republic-team-players-pose-prior-to-the-women-world-cup-handball-F3D478.jpg

https://static.wbsc.org/wp-content/uploads/Czech-team-768x432.jpg

https://www.fiba.basketball/api/img/team/coverimage/5/10314/886/550/418

ZERO overlap between the two.

[Avicenna]

LOL at this troll thread...

Turks:

https://static.dw.com/image/49125257_303.jpg

https://64.media.tumblr.com/b83fabf7de5e3e5dfe67d0a9ccfdad39/tumblr_onn196BoQG1vu8p34o1_640.jpg
https://turkeypurge.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/000-1.jpg

https://s3.eu-north-1.amazonaws.com/images.free-apply.com/uni/gallery/lg/1079200023/0c406c800c3a558178152cbb3ba7aa8cc0b1fcba.jpg

Czechs:

https://editorial01.shutterstock.com/wm-preview-1500/7792128a/89514b22/czech-republic-soccer-friendly-may-2006-shutterstock-editorial-7792128a.jpg

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/F3D478/czech-republic-team-players-pose-prior-to-the-women-world-cup-handball-F3D478.jpg

https://static.wbsc.org/wp-content/uploads/Czech-team-768x432.jpg

https://www.fiba.basketball/api/img/team/coverimage/5/10314/886/550/418

ZERO overlap between the two.

I take the back the Italian / Irish example . Italians have more chance as passing as Irish than Turks do as czechs do.

[Altaylı]

Non turanid influenced Western-central-southern anatolian Turks can pass as southern european easily and even some Afghans can pass as southern euro too but i don't think average Turks can pass as central euro

Btw aruncaz isn't troll he just asked a question that doesn't mean he is troll

[reboun]

I guess I just expressed myself incorrectly and therefore sounded like a troll.

[Flashball]

It's simple, the western Anatolians who went into Europe during the neolithic, left some empty space for more Iranian type of farmers to settle from the east. Today they are relatively very far from the Anatolians that were living there.

This
https://risibank.fr/cache/stickers/d128/12875-full.png

[Flashball]

Thanks for that . Also this is why we shouldn't rely too much on autosomal calculators and include dstats and IBS analysis. To think that Italians are closer to Lebanese Muslims than Sardinians is just bizzarre.

Southern Italians have more Iran/Caucasus Farmer and Levant neolithic, that's why they are close to these population that Sardinians.

For example Nuraghi people ("old sardinians") don't have at all Caucasus or Iran Farmer, levant neolithic, etc. They are very distant to Southern Italians and more close to Basque (more WHG, between 15 to 20%, central sardinians is like between 10 to 15%).

"Hybrid" populations such as the southern Italians (genetically, such as Abruzzo, Sicilian, puglia, etc.), Ashekenazi, Sephardic, etc., always have melting pot phenotypes, it is useless to debate this to count the number of "European" testicle hairs or not.

[Petalpusher]

S.Italy has indeed more Iran_N and Levant_N signals, both highest in Europe. Their Iran_N clearly isn't all from the steppe, which carried some, as seen as the relatively still high level in north Euros. Sardinian's Iran_N isn't from the steppe either since they have no steppe, but it's in turns lower than most of Europe because they didn't get neither the EHG nor the Iran_N that came with in the Bronze Age. I think the run from this study is pretty interesting and shows clearly the difference:



https://i.postimg.cc/08v5Md9c/Capture-EUROMENA.jpg


For Turks there was a large turnover of population from the neo-chalcolithic onwards. They went from being almost Sardinian like, to what Turkey is today, which is quite far from it. Certainly one of the biggest shift in west Eurasians.

[Tacitus]

S.Italy has indeed more Iran_N and Levant_N signals, both highest in Europe. Their Iran_N clearly isn't all from the steppe, which carried some, as seen as the relatively still high level in north Euros. Sardinian's Iran_N isn't from the steppe either since they have no steppe, but it's in turns lower than most of Europe because they didn't get neither the EHG nor the Iran_N that came with in the Bronze Age. I think the run from this study is pretty interesting and shows clearly the difference:



https://i.postimg.cc/08v5Md9c/Capture-EUROMENA.jpg


For Turks there was a large turnover of population from the neo-chalcolithic onwards. They went from being almost Sardinian like, to what Turkey is today, which is quite far from it. Certainly one of the biggest shift in west Eurasians.

Have you seen this study yet? It discusses the Iran_N/CHG found in southern Italy, independent of the steppe migrations. https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?341993-Genetic-history-of-Calabrian-Greeks-reveals-ancient-events-and-long-term-isolation-in-the-Aspromonte

[Petalpusher]

Have you seen this study yet? It discusses the Iran_N/CHG found in southern Italy, independent of the steppe migrations. https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?341993-Genetic-history-of-Calabrian-Greeks-reveals-ancient-events-and-long-term-isolation-in-the-Aspromonte

Not yet, i will read this certainly and im sure this debate about the exact source will go on for a long time, it was likely mediated by several populations so that makes it complicated to sort out, and at different times. At least they agree of the CHG/Iran_N model. To me the best candidate is Levant_BA not necessarily in the BA but by populations who were high on it, either ancient or more recent. I also think that in general steppe sources were more diverse than most imagine, in their ratio of EHG/CHG/Iran_N. It's not like everybody was invaded by the same Yamnaya directly, maybe as a first pulse, then it varied.

[CommonSense]

I think OP is not familiar with how Czechs, Austrians and the like tend to look. The average Central European isn't too different in pigmentation from the average ethnic Russian and I really doubt anyone would say Turks of any kind are close to Russians. Probably because Turkey is a very popular vaction spot for Russians and many Russian women are married to Turks and thus OP is more familiar with them than with people from Central Europe.

[reboun]

I think OP is not familiar with how Czechs, Austrians and the like tend to look. The average Central European isn't too different in pigmentation from the average ethnic Russian and I really doubt anyone would say Turks of any kind are close to Russians. Probably because Turkey is a very popular vaction spot for Russians and many Russian women are married to Turks and thus OP is more familiar with them than with people from Central Europe.

You are probably right. Before this thread, I used to think that Czechs, Austrians, Hungarians, Slovaks don't look much different from an average Balkan person. Lately, I realised that I was wrong.

[lockdownboredom]

Another crazy thing is Lebanese Christians being closer to Greeks than Anatolian Turks while not being at Greece's doorstep.

Distance to: Lebanese_Christian
0.00886649 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.00907960 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.01643483 Lebanese_Druze
0.01645246 Druze
0.02308814 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.02481375 Cypriot
0.02489249 Karaite_Egypt
0.02503919 Lebanese_Muslim
0.02922520 Syrian_Jew
0.03111838 Samaritan
0.03281897 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.03314929 Cypriot_B
0.03523086 Iraqi_Jew
0.03891851 Romaniote_Jew
0.03934979 Jordanian_B
0.04105846 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.04165523 Syrian
0.04219380 Iraqi_B
0.04346676 Syrian_B
0.04407773 Tunisian_Jew
0.04492096 Iranian_Jew
0.04523911 Libyan_Jew
0.04669894 Jordanian
0.04674180 Sephardic_Jew
0.04706336 Armenian_B
0.04712436 Greek_Cappadocia
0.04889033 Greek_Dodecanese
0.04902868 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04973274 Georgian_Jew
0.05020682 Italian_Jew
0.05022272 Palestinian
0.05093096 Assyrian
0.05103433 Mountain_Jew
0.05339490 Greek_Kos
0.05548947 Armenian
0.05616110 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.05767799 Moroccan_Jew
0.06211216 Greek_Crete
0.06370189 Turkish_Trabzon
0.06390949 Iraqi
0.06578474 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.06621974 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.06639777 Italian_Calabria
0.06795415 Greek_Trabzon
0.06856961 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.06929048 Italian_Campania
0.06942246 BedouinA
0.06984589 Maltese
0.06992886 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.07044542 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.07312329 Sicilian_East
0.07407813 Italian_Basilicata
0.07470310 Turkish_Kayseri
0.07535419 Turkish_East
0.07598452 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.07667120 Italian_Apulia
0.07943182 Turkish_Adana
0.08103958 Turkish_B
0.08129780 Sicilian_West
0.08138817 Greek_Izmir
0.08196818 Kurdish
0.08198618 Italian_Abruzzo
0.08205574 Ezid
0.08220845 Zaza_Dersim
0.08441969 Italian_Molise
0.08446255 Yemenite_Amran
0.08569416 Azeri_Turkey
0.08577875 Greek_Laconia
0.08607423 Turkish_Central
0.08790247 Georgian_Laz
0.08792350 Iranian_Lor
0.08854900 Azeri
0.08977650 Italian_Lazio
0.08980867 Turkish_Istanbul
0.09011867 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.09285249 Greek_Peloponnese
0.09520684 Italian_Marche
0.09628779 Italian_Umbria
0.09805697 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.09853900 Yemenite_Dhamar
0.09877378 Yemenite_Jew
0.10061322 Iranian_Fars
0.10092512 Yemenite_Ma'rib
0.10153958 Iranian_Seyyed
0.10243862 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
0.10425774 Greek_Thessaly
0.10448227 Azeri_Dagestan
0.10521379 Turkish_North
0.10541644 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.10630710 Italian_Tuscany
0.10668000 Greek_Macedonia
0.10699538 Rumelia_East
0.10800733 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.10875357 Turkish_Aydin
0.10962697 Albanian
0.11029161 Saudi
0.11051206 Georgian_Imer
0.11122788 Turkish_Southwest
0.11153065 BedouinB
0.11256813 Iranian_B

Distance to: Turkish_Aydin
0.01390630 Turkish_Northwest
0.01535571 Turkish_Southwest
0.01738533 Turkish_North
0.01814768 Turkish_Balikesir
0.01933180 Turkish_South
0.03150698 Turkish_Central
0.04107571 Turkish_Adana
0.04195536 Turkish_Istanbul
0.04526797 Turkish_Kayseri
0.04852809 Turkish_B
0.05431513 Azeri
0.05916478 Kabardin
0.05917517 Azeri_Turkey
0.05934265 Kumyk
0.06002166 Turkish_Rumeli
0.06218993 Azeri_Dagestan
0.06277035 Abazin
0.06443964 Karachay
0.06500510 Cherkes
0.06514341 Circassian
0.06518483 Turkish_East
0.06965716 Balkar
0.07338629 Iranian_B
0.07379217 Zaza_Dersim
0.07591961 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.07643501 Iranian_Fars
0.07647667 Turkish_Deliorman
0.07695740 Ezid
0.07808362 Iranian_Seyyed
0.07886896 North_Ossetian
0.08038195 Adygei
0.08049757 Ingushian
0.08162363 Kurdish
0.08215963 Iranian_Lor
0.08333637 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.08357897 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.08362711 Roma_Madrid
0.08367876 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.08480525 Roma_Granada
0.08550651 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.08566931 Ossetian
0.08674519 Roma_Bilbao
0.08712736 Chechen
0.08732752 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.08807770 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.08810814 Roma_Porto
0.08821825 Syrian
0.08850724 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.08859253 Roma_Barcelona
0.08888270 Iraqi_B
0.08978554 Georgian_Jew
0.09101755 Roma_Balkans
0.09253852 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.09273993 Greek_Cappadocia
0.09301681 Greek_Crete
0.09315433 Lebanese_Muslim
0.09332585 Tajik
0.09351449 Assyrian
0.09370057 Tabasaran
0.09394217 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.09403227 Syrian_B
0.09405604 Mountain_Jew
0.09519421 Armenian
0.09536029 Greek_Kos
0.09557510 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.09583771 Greek_Dodecanese
0.09614474 Armenian_B
0.09657795 Syrian_Jew
0.09676510 Greek_Izmir
0.09704037 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.09704249 Iranian_Jew
0.09740316 Turkish_Trabzon
0.09789525 Sephardic_Jew
0.09796885 Abkhasian
0.09849263 Italian_Calabria
0.09861257 Greek_Trabzon
0.09879476 Iraqi
0.09881289 Druze
0.09894210 Italian_Basilicata
0.09900465 Lebanese_Druze
0.09950855 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.09982381 Romaniote_Jew
0.09993997 Cypriot_B
0.10027703 Lak
0.10038973 Avar
0.10044352 Parsi_Pakistan
0.10045890 Italian_Campania
0.10056893 Maltese
0.10100470 Italian_Molise
0.10114964 Cypriot
0.10138686 Italian_Apulia
0.10143493 Italian_Jew
0.10145236 Sicilian_East
0.10156255 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.10168710 Kaitag
0.10175223 Rumelia_East
0.10188758 Greek_Peloponnese
0.10241355 Gagauz
0.10276814 Parsi_India
0.10277124 Sicilian_West

Distance to: Turkish_Northwest
0.01353832 Turkish_Balikesir
0.01390630 Turkish_Aydin
0.01625281 Turkish_Southwest
0.01973488 Turkish_South
0.02100292 Turkish_North
0.03743241 Turkish_Central
0.04266600 Turkish_Istanbul
0.04663772 Turkish_Adana
0.05164456 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05167927 Turkish_B
0.05606077 Kabardin
0.05621853 Turkish_Rumeli
0.05708432 Kumyk
0.05934118 Azeri
0.05989961 Abazin
0.06181384 Karachay
0.06192078 Cherkes
0.06277031 Circassian
0.06342091 Azeri_Dagestan
0.06394413 Azeri_Turkey
0.06691117 Balkar
0.07038660 Turkish_East
0.07265246 Turkish_Deliorman
0.07577143 Iranian_B
0.07753610 North_Ossetian
0.07759646 Zaza_Dersim
0.07864314 Ingushian
0.07923857 Roma_Madrid
0.07942990 Adygei
0.07953849 Iranian_Fars
0.08001516 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.08110560 Ezid
0.08115336 Roma_Granada
0.08146719 Iranian_Seyyed
0.08214476 Roma_Bilbao
0.08273405 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.08373182 Roma_Porto
0.08459847 Roma_Barcelona
0.08470017 Chechen
0.08579297 Ossetian
0.08633722 Tajik
0.08650398 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.08651602 Kurdish
0.08651802 Roma_Balkans
0.08677710 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.08712510 Iranian_Lor
0.08737907 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.08876031 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.09025356 Tabasaran
0.09092921 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.09241180 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.09624143 Georgian_Jew
0.09629274 Syrian
0.09647200 Iraqi_B
0.09660695 Lak
0.09661566 Avar
0.09709949 Greek_Crete
0.09745372 Tajik_Rushan
0.09808283 Kaitag
0.09875471 Greek_Cappadocia
0.09889922 Greek_Izmir
0.09967378 Abkhasian
0.09984015 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.10024757 Assyrian
0.10027245 Parsi_Pakistan
0.10027580 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.10034214 Greek_Kos
0.10044723 Gagauz
0.10056289 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.10065601 Mountain_Jew
0.10126245 Lebanese_Muslim
0.10131949 Greek_Dodecanese
0.10160085 Armenian
0.10164635 Rumelia_East
0.10166033 Tajik_Shugnan
0.10198828 Italian_Basilicata
0.10218858 Syrian_B
0.10239078 Italian_Calabria
0.10244000 Parsi_India
0.10255352 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.10286178 Armenian_B
0.10302304 Italian_Molise
0.10318412 Turkish_Trabzon
0.10320318 Greek_Peloponnese
0.10367899 Darginian
0.10389680 Syrian_Jew
0.10390325 Italian_Campania
0.10402249 Kubachinian
0.10404550 Sephardic_Jew
0.10417852 Greek_Macedonia
0.10437554 Italian_Apulia
0.10445955 Greek_Trabzon
0.10459248 Iranian_Jew
0.10475619 Maltese
0.10483118 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.10497392 Italian_Abruzzo
0.10502182 Sicilian_East
0.10544987 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.10566554 Sicilian_West
0.10586384 Greek_Thessaly


Distance to: Turkish_Balikesir
0.01353832 Turkish_Northwest
0.01814768 Turkish_Aydin
0.02106420 Turkish_Southwest
0.02265361 Turkish_North
0.02396462 Turkish_South
0.03784462 Turkish_Central
0.04167589 Turkish_Istanbul
0.04629678 Turkish_Adana
0.05113984 Turkish_B
0.05122593 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05547328 Turkish_Rumeli
0.05936771 Kabardin
0.05987286 Kumyk
0.06006813 Azeri
0.06292694 Azeri_Turkey
0.06406771 Azeri_Dagestan
0.06475947 Abazin
0.06540404 Karachay
0.06593763 Cherkes
0.06648419 Circassian
0.07049311 Turkish_East
0.07086108 Balkar
0.07116801 Turkish_Deliorman
0.07599689 Roma_Madrid
0.07615600 Iranian_B
0.07694251 Zaza_Dersim
0.07938403 Roma_Granada
0.07974614 Iranian_Fars
0.08026662 Roma_Bilbao
0.08046508 North_Ossetian
0.08054431 Ingushian
0.08102692 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.08104598 Ezid
0.08126204 Roma_Barcelona
0.08190827 Iranian_Seyyed
0.08192379 Roma_Porto
0.08217191 Adygei
0.08346284 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.08353822 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.08446882 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.08568474 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.08635180 Roma_Balkans
0.08648299 Iranian_Zoroastrian
0.08650922 Kurdish
0.08654934 Iranian_Lor
0.08703053 Chechen
0.08732129 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.08830528 Tajik
0.08877635 Ossetian
0.08903457 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.09149837 Tabasaran
0.09477039 Greek_Crete
0.09515191 Syrian
0.09553299 Iraqi_B
0.09595019 Georgian_Jew
0.09679542 Greek_Izmir
0.09705152 Greek_Cappadocia
0.09737085 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.09776681 Avar
0.09797220 Lak
0.09841926 Greek_Kos
0.09844926 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.09851105 Tajik_Rushan
0.09853306 Gagauz
0.09859776 Kaitag
0.09887876 Greek_Dodecanese
0.09907694 Italian_Basilicata
0.09918513 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.09967982 Assyrian
0.09979062 Italian_Calabria
0.09979698 Italian_Molise
0.09999878 Rumelia_East
0.10008142 Mountain_Jew
0.10008634 Lebanese_Muslim
0.10046672 Parsi_Pakistan
0.10050730 Sephardic_Jew
0.10069603 Italian_Campania
0.10084616 Greek_Peloponnese
0.10109024 Sicilian_East
0.10112020 Italian_Apulia
0.10118279 Armenian
0.10119781 Maltese
0.10123891 Syrian_B
0.10134760 Syrian_Jew
0.10152785 Greek_Macedonia
0.10163462 Italian_Abruzzo
0.10177343 Sicilian_West
0.10240193 Abkhasian
0.10241530 Armenian_B
0.10257920 Greek_Thessaly
0.10280925 Parsi_India
0.10296217 Tajik_Shugnan
0.10296929 Iranian_Mazandarani
0.10306446 Greek_Central_Macedonia
0.10309719 Iranian_Jew
0.10340589 Turkish_Trabzon
0.10364176 Romaniote_Jew
0.10375175 Italian_Jew
0.10392102 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.10419892 Albanian

[Aren]

Not yet, i will read this certainly and im sure this debate about the exact source will go on for a long time, it was likely mediated by several populations so that makes it complicated to sort out, and at different times. At least they agree of the CHG/Iran_N model. To me the best candidate is Levant_BA not necessarily in the BA but by populations who were high on it, either ancient or more recent. I also think that in general steppe sources were more diverse than most imagine, in their ratio of EHG/CHG/Iran_N. It's not like everybody was invaded by the same Yamnaya directly, maybe as a first pulse, then it varied.

I would say it's from two sources. One coming from Levant_BA people and one from BA Anatolia, but this admixture event likely happend during the Early Roman era. Both populations had around 30% Iran_N/CHG without any Steppe. Even North Italians have significant amount of post-Neolithic admixture from Anatolia/Levant.

[reboun]

Another crazy thing is Lebanese Christians being closer to Greeks than Anatolian Turks while not being at Greece's doorstep.


Southern Siberian admixture among Turkish people creates the difference in my opinion.

[Petalpusher]

I would say it's from two sources. One coming from Levant_BA people and one from BA Anatolia, but this admixture event likely happend during the Early Roman era. Both populations had around 30% Iran_N/CHG without any Steppe. Even North Italians have significant amount of post-Neolithic admixture from Anatolia/Levant.

I ve discussed about this, several years ago but difficult around here. Yes it's possible even N.Italians have a bit of it. It's just that mathematically, it's impossible anything below Tuscans, doesn't have it. You basically make a triangle between mesolithic, earliy neo and steppe and whatever doesn't fall into it, has to have something else. Most Europe conforms to this simple model without the need of additionnal admixture, even Iberians, Sardinians, etc.. so it's already very conservative. Then indeed, it can be a lot of things, either post BA or "different BA" at different times.

[Aren]

I ve discussed about this, several years ago but difficult around here. Yes it's possible even N.Italians have a bit of it. It's just that mathematically, it's impossible anything below Tuscans, doesn't have it. You basically make a triangle between mesolithic, earliy neo and steppe and whatever doesn't fall into it, has to have something else. Most Europe conforms to this simple model without the need of additionnal admixture, even Iberians, Sardinians, etc.. so it's already very conservative. Then indeed, it can be a lot of things, either post BA or "different BA" at different times.

It looks like it when you model modern Europeans with the available Anatolian Neolithic samples and EBA Steppe, yes. But IMO this is not the most accurate method. Neolithic Barcin was not the exact source for most of the European farmers, especially not for the Cardial Ware since Barcin seem to have some actual Iran/Caucasus/Levantine admixture lacking in European farmers(outside of Greece). Second mistake most people do is to use Yamnaya to model modern Europeans. Yamnaya with it's R-Z2103 was not ancestral to most of Europe, it's only relevant for Greeks, Albanians and non-Iranian West Asians. Yamnaya has too much CHG and too little EHG, so populations who have some extra non-Steppe CHG will have it eaten up by Yamnaya. Relevant sources would be Corded Ware and Bell Beakers.
But most importantly if we want to find out whether a population has post-Neolithic admixture from outside of Europe we need to use post-Neolithic samples. And we have lots of MN/CA farmers from all over Europe to use.

Here's a simple run for modern Northern Italians that showcases this.

Target: Italian_Lombardy
Distance: 1.3483% / 0.01348316
43.4 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
38.8 Corded_Ware_DEU
12.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
5.0 Levant_Sidon_MBA

Without Anatolia/Levant_BA the fit is a lot worse, you simply need something with Natufian/CHG/Iran admixture without Steppe.

Target: Italian_Lombardy
Distance: 2.8206% / 0.02820605
56.4 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
43.6 Corded_Ware_DEU

[Petalpusher]

It looks like it when you model modern Europeans with the available Anatolian Neolithic samples and EBA Steppe, yes. But IMO this is not the most accurate method. Neolithic Barcin was not the exact source for most of the European farmers, especially not for the Cardial Ware since Barcin seem to have some actual Iran/Caucasus/Levantine admixture lacking in European farmers(outside of Greece). Second mistake most people do is to use Yamnaya to model modern Europeans. Yamnaya with it's R-Z2103 was not ancestral to most of Europe, it's only relevant for Greeks, Albanians and non-Iranian West Asians. Yamnaya has too much CHG and too little EHG, so populations who have some extra non-Steppe CHG will have it eaten up by Yamnaya. Relevant sources would be Corded Ware and Bell Beakers.
But most importantly if we want to find out whether a population has post-Neolithic admixture from outside of Europe we need to use post-Neolithic samples. And we have lots of MN/CA farmers from all over Europe to use.

Here's a simple run for modern Northern Italians that showcases this.

Target: Italian_Lombardy
Distance: 1.3483% / 0.01348316
43.4 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
38.8 Corded_Ware_DEU
12.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
5.0 Levant_Sidon_MBA

Without Anatolia/Levant_BA the fit is a lot worse, you simply need something with Natufian/CHG/Iran admixture without Steppe.

Target: Italian_Lombardy
Distance: 2.8206% / 0.02820605
56.4 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
43.6 Corded_Ware_DEU

Yeah i was talking about a time CHG wasn't even released (even less Iran_N and newer samples) when i noticed it, got a lot of crap back then for pointing it out... But i agree Yamnaya is not the best direct source, in the same way some models with Samara give some pop that are very unlikely to have some relevant levels of Steppe. Because they have high CHG/Iran_N, and there s some good ANE in this to begin with, a bit of WHG and that's enough to confuse it for Steppe since it looks like some ANE+WHG (so EHG like) and basal. However i think BB and CWC can produce their own admixture artefacts as they are IE acquiring LN/CA europe type of admix.

Is it G25 btw and which dataset?

[Aren]

Yeah i was talking about a time CHG wasn't even released (even less Iran_N and newer samples) when i noticed it, got a lot of crap back then for pointing it out... But i agree Yamnaya is not the best direct source, in the same way some models with Samara give some pop that are very unlikely to have some relevant levels of Steppe. Because they have high CHG/Iran_N, and there s some good ANE in this to begin with, a bit of WHG and that's enough to confuse it for Steppe since it looks like some ANE+WHG (so EHG like) and basal. However i think BB and CWC can produce their own admixture artefacts as they are IE acquiring LN/CA europe type of admix.

Is it G25 btw and which dataset?

Yes CWC and BB both have some substantial European_MN/CA, but the point was not to show actual Steppe input. Using early Corded Ware is a better choice for that.

Yes G25, scaled. I always use scaled coordinates.
Ancient samples:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F2rKEVtu8nWSm7qFhxPU6UESQNsmA-sl/view
Modern:https://drive.google.com/file/d/1wZr-UOve0KUKo_Qbgeo27m-CQncZWb8y/view

[Defcon2]

Target: Defcon2_scaled
Distance: 4.3510% / 0.04351024
51.8 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
41.8 Corded_Ware_DEU
6.4 Levant_Sidon_MBA

Target: Defcon2_scaled
Distance: 2.9326% / 0.02932553
51.2 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
41.6 Corded_Ware_DEU
7.2 MAR_Taforalt

Sorry, I couldn't resist...

https://i.imgur.com/kVTPDrD.jpg

[Aren]

Target: Defcon2_scaled
Distance: 4.3510% / 0.04351024
51.8 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
41.8 Corded_Ware_DEU
6.4 Levant_Sidon_MBA

Target: Defcon2_scaled
Distance: 2.9326% / 0.02932553
51.2 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
41.6 Corded_Ware_DEU
7.2 MAR_Taforalt

Sorry, I couldn't resist...

https://i.imgur.com/kVTPDrD.jpg

You need a farmer source with more WHG.

Something like this
Iberia_Central_CA,0.1263435,0.1690857,0.0548712,-0.029716,0.095864,-0.0212652,-0.0072262,0.0002305,0.0659078,0.0904348,-0.007064,0.0140125,-0.0315535,-0.0146222,-0.0047842,0.0045082,0.0117018,0.0010768,-0.0014452,-0.0030325,0.01541,0.0018858,-0.0118318,-0.030607,0.0013172

[Defcon2]

You need a farmer source with more WHG.

Something like this
Iberia_Central_CA,0.1263435,0.1690857,0.0548712,-0.029716,0.095864,-0.0212652,-0.0072262,0.0002305,0.0659078,0.0904348,-0.007064,0.0140125,-0.0315535,-0.0146222,-0.0047842,0.0045082,0.0117018,0.0010768,-0.0014452,-0.0030325,0.01541,0.0018858,-0.0118318,-0.030607,0.0013172

Target: Defcon2_scaled
Distance: 3.4515% / 0.03451455
43.4 Iberia_Central_CA
33.4 Corded_Ware_DEU
17.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
5.8 MAR_Taforalt

[Aren]

Target: Defcon2_scaled
Distance: 3.4515% / 0.03451455
43.4 Iberia_Central_CA
33.4 Corded_Ware_DEU
17.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
5.8 MAR_Taforalt

Use both farmer populations.

[Defcon2]

Use both farmer populations.

Target: Defcon2_scaled
Distance: 2.9293% / 0.02929282
49.2 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
41.4 Corded_Ware_DEU
7.2 MAR_Taforalt
2.2 Iberia_Central_CA

[Aren]

Target: Defcon2_scaled
Distance: 2.9293% / 0.02929282
49.2 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
41.4 Corded_Ware_DEU
7.2 MAR_Taforalt
2.2 Iberia_Central_CA

Interesting. You seem to have rather low WHG then. Spanish averages prefer Iberia_CA or a mix of Iberia_CA + something low in WHG.


Target: Spanish_Alacant
Distance: 1.1909% / 0.01190888
38.2 Corded_Ware_DEU
32.0 Iberia_Central_CA
14.6 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
9.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
3.2 MAR_Taforalt
2.6 Levant_Sidon_MBA

[Defcon2]

Interesting. You seem to have rather low WHG then. Spanish averages prefer Iberia_CA or a mix of Iberia_CA + something low in WHG.


Target: Spanish_Alacant
Distance: 1.1909% / 0.01190888
38.2 Corded_Ware_DEU
32.0 Iberia_Central_CA
14.6 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
9.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
3.2 MAR_Taforalt
2.6 Levant_Sidon_MBA

It is true that it is quite low, although it is not incredibly low, around 10%. The majority of Spanish/Portuguese people I have seen have between 10-12% WHG, only a minority surpass that.

Target: Defcon2_scaled
Distance: 4.8119% / 0.04811909
55.4 TUR_Barcin_N
27.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
10.2 WHG
4.2 MAR_Taforalt
1.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2_I8728
1.0 Yoruba
0.6 Han

[Didac]

https://i.pinimg.com/600x315/55/3c/2b/553c2bb1eb23bd007032682974562ef5.jpg

https://cdn.britannica.com/27/198827-050-1C027B7D/Earth-power-potential.jpg

According to this Levantine Lebanon etc similar climate to much or iran however the Levantine Lebanese match their genetics via looks being the most west Asian group there is and closest to Europe after transitional populations such as Cypriots and Jews and the climate doesn’t seem to have affected their looks

[Didac]

Non turanid influenced Western-central-southern anatolian Turks can pass as southern european easily and even some Afghans can pass as southern euro too but i don't think average Turks can pass as central euro

Btw aruncaz isn't troll he just asked a question that doesn't mean he is troll



Yes ofc Afghans Pakistanis indians South Indians Sri Lankan’s all pass in Southern Europe bc Southern Europe is just South Asia right :picard2:

[happycow]

OWD thread

[Roy]

On G25 this is particularly noticeable, on it they're closer to Persians than they are to Greek islanders. The Turkic tribes who settled in Anatolia also brought some Iranian-like admix with them.

Yeah, it's a good explanation.

[Chocolate_Hound]

They aren't. Anatolia always felt more culturally Balkan than MENA to me anyways. I feel like people pay too much attention to strict geographic borders without taking actual cultural influence into account. People really think that once you pass Istanbul it's instantly like Egypt or Pakistan lmao. Not at all, even Ankara felt pretty familiar to me as a Greek.

[Roy]

They aren't. Anatolia always felt more culturally Balkan than MENA to me anyways. I feel like people pay too much attention to strict geographic borders without taking actual cultural influence into account. People really think that once you pass Istanbul it's instantly like Egypt or Pakistan lmao. Not at all, even Ankara felt pretty familiar to me as a Greek.

The guy in the OP though meant in a genetic way.

[placebo]

because turks from western anatolia not closer to central europeans than iranians as appearance lol.

but they're closer (especially northwest) to some balkan populations and southern italians than iranians as genetically but i don't think they're close to either side.

[Italicus]

On G25 this is particularly noticeable, on it they're closer to Persians than they are to Greek islanders. The Turkic tribes who settled in Anatolia also brought some Iranian-like admix with them.

Really? That's pretty cool, some calculators show West Anatolian Turks being close to Greeks (specifically Islanders), but then again it they are outdated compared to g25.

[kevinmac]

Because most Iranians are just dark because of the climate which causes confusion. They are primarily still strongly just as caucasoid.

[Targum]

S.Italy has indeed more Iran_N and Levant_N signals, both highest in Europe. Their Iran_N clearly isn't all from the steppe, which carried some, as seen as the relatively still high level in north Euros. Sardinian's Iran_N isn't from the steppe either since they have no steppe, but it's in turns lower than most of Europe because they didn't get neither the EHG nor the Iran_N that came with in the Bronze Age. I think the run from this study is pretty interesting and shows clearly the difference:



https://i.postimg.cc/08v5Md9c/Capture-EUROMENA.jpg


For Turks there was a large turnover of population from the neo-chalcolithic onwards. They went from being almost Sardinian like, to what Turkey is today, which is quite far from it. Certainly one of the biggest shift in west Eurasians.

Look how similar the Italian South and Jewish charts are, especially the Turkish Jew which is culturally Sefaradi and really is anmixture of Sefaradi and Romaniote

[lockdownboredom]

They aren't. Anatolia always felt more culturally Balkan than MENA to me anyways. I feel like people pay too much attention to strict geographic borders without taking actual cultural influence into account. People really think that once you pass Istanbul it's instantly like Egypt or Pakistan lmao. Not at all, even Ankara felt pretty familiar to me as a Greek.


As a Balkan Slav Russian to me sounds very palatalized. It kind of sounds slurred and incoherent compared to Serbo-Croatian. Also, they have many extra weird Cyrillic letters. Their language seems more complex than ours, for example they use a lot of double letters and many words seem like elongated versions of ours.

Will this curry imitation artist ever be banned? Slippery piece of shit.

[Didac]

Iranians look a lot like turks and people from the Caucasus. I’d say the breakdown of phenotypes in iran is like this. 30% look more Turkish and Caucasus like 50% look Iraqi and Kurdish. 20% look Levantine Lebanese/Syrian

[XT93]

I think G25 overestimates Caucasus connection for Turks, other calculators don't really show these signs. I'm a half Balkan half Anatolian Turk but my connection to Balkan is noticeably weaker on G25 while Caucasus elements and connection to inner Anatolian Turks is much stronger on G25 unlike K12 or K13. I even have close matches with Azeris on G25 which to me doesn't make much sense.

I don't agree at all that Western Anatolian Turks look Iranian, only Kurds and eastern ones do, but Western Anatolia nowadays has experienced a lot of migration so it's very diverse, but if we only count the natives they don't really have Caucasus features as strongly as Pontic or Eastern Turks do, nor do they really have much of a phenotype connection to Iranians.

I think G25 is a great tool but for Turks it's showing weird inaccuracies due to the Turkic-Caucasus admixture. It also separates Iranian farmers from CHG, but at the same time considers them equals in distance, it seems to show heavy bias towards those who carry CHG or Zagrosian farmer.

[Kyp]

I think G25 overestimates Caucasus connection for Turks, other calculators don't really show these signs. I'm a half Balkan half Anatolian Turk but my connection to Balkan is noticeably weaker on G25 while Caucasus elements and connection to inner Anatolian Turks is much stronger on G25 unlike K12 or K13. I even have close matches with Azeris on G25 which to me doesn't make much sense.

I don't agree at all that Western Anatolian Turks look Iranian, only Kurds and eastern ones do, but Western Anatolia nowadays has experienced a lot of migration so it's very diverse, but if we only count the natives they don't really have Caucasus features as strongly as Pontic or Eastern Turks do, nor do they really have much of a phenotype connection to Iranians.

I think G25 is a great tool but for Turks it's showing weird inaccuracies due to the Turkic-Caucasus admixture. It also separates Iranian farmers from CHG, but at the same time considers them equals in distance, it seems to show heavy bias towards those who carry CHG or Zagrosian farmer.

g25 is much more accurate than k12 and k13

Could you post your result? I was wondering now...

[XT93]

g25 is much more accurate than k12 and k13

Could you post your result? I was wondering now...

For Turks I doubt it, there's a massive Caucasus drift on G25 compared to all other calculators (and a little bit of Turkic). If using Turkish DNA project K12 samples all western Turks show a Greek-islander drift with significantly weaker Caucasus connection which to me makes much more sense than saying some native Izmirite and Azeri are identical. It generally seems G25 strengthens outliers like Caucasus and partially Turkic admixture (Kayseri Turks are somehow closer than any Balkanoids). My results are below G25 Scaled/k13/k12, I'm half Balkan Turk Half Anatolian Turk fyi.
https://i.gyazo.com/11390daa159ea43877e4600970ce5b80.png
https://i.gyazo.com/afb438932e289e2f79cb93de5c6cc424.png
https://i.gyazo.com/0adff3b7dc0c2ab87d7e57933e074c0f.png

[Kyp]

For Turks I doubt it, there's a massive Caucasus drift on G25 compared to all other calculators (and a little bit of Turkic). If using Turkish DNA project K12 samples all western Turks show a Greek-islander drift with significantly weaker Caucasus connection which to me makes much more sense than saying some native Izmirite and Azeri are identical. It generally seems G25 strengthens outliers like Caucasus and partially Turkic admixture. My results are below G25 Scaled/k13/k12, I'm half Balkan Turk Half Anatolian Turk fyi.
https://i.gyazo.com/11390daa159ea43877e4600970ce5b80.png
https://i.gyazo.com/afb438932e289e2f79cb93de5c6cc424.png
https://i.gyazo.com/0adff3b7dc0c2ab87d7e57933e074c0f.png

Looks about right. K12 just has much more Greek Islander references. Also Greek Islanders are probably closer to the West Asian cluster than to the European cluster. So thats not saying much aswell!
Also you are not close to Azerbaijani at all.

Turkish_Rumeli makes perfect sense for half Balkan Turk. To everything else youre not reall that close.

[XT93]

Looks about right. K12 just has much more Greek Islander references. Also Greek Islanders are probably closer to the West Asian cluster than to the European cluster. So thats not saying much aswell!
Also you are not close to Azerbaijani at all.

Turkish_Rumeli makes perfect sense for half Balkan Turk. To everything else youre not reall that close.

I'm saying that most western Turks are more drifted towards Greek islanders instead of Caucasus that G25 tends to suggest, I'm not saying Turks are Europeans but G25 does have a difference, it puts most Turks into same basket and drifts heavily towards caucasus and Iran, when Western Turks on most other calculators don't do that at all. Look at my results, Kayseri Turks are closer than any Balkanoids on G25, while they don't even appear on the other calculators. Also, Rumeli isn't entirely the closest I'm rather inbetween Rumelis and Northwestern Turks if going by K12 and K13, It's G25 that heavily skews me towards Rumelis, and then other Turks and Caucasus, while K12 and K13 shifts more towards Balkan.
Try Turk_Northwest on G25 and K12, there's major differences, you can also try Turkish DNA Project and test the aegean and northwest Turk samples
https://turkishdnaproject.com/admixture/

For entire NW Turkey K12 and K13 gives this, Greek islanders end up much closer, while on G25 they're not even on the list, even Iranians end before them, It's very Caucasus drifted. On K12 even some Italians cluster closer than Caucausus people, It's clear there's a obvious difference.
https://i.gyazo.com/3540debaef0aa7d8335ca40fc8306bed.png
https://i.gyazo.com/484fb53aaa25a65accb5452a75b14bca.png
https://i.gyazo.com/8dade1b865d0617e4cb0248fbfeb649c.png

[Babak]

I think G25 overestimates Caucasus connection for Turks, other calculators don't really show these signs. I'm a half Balkan half Anatolian Turk but my connection to Balkan is noticeably weaker on G25 while Caucasus elements and connection to inner Anatolian Turks is much stronger on G25 unlike K12 or K13. I even have close matches with Azeris on G25 which to me doesn't make much sense.

I don't agree at all that Western Anatolian Turks look Iranian, only Kurds and eastern ones do, but Western Anatolia nowadays has experienced a lot of migration so it's very diverse, but if we only count the natives they don't really have Caucasus features as strongly as Pontic or Eastern Turks do, nor do they really have much of a phenotype connection to Iranians.

I think G25 is a great tool but for Turks it's showing weird inaccuracies due to the Turkic-Caucasus admixture. It also separates Iranian farmers from CHG, but at the same time considers them equals in distance, it seems to show heavy bias towards those who carry CHG or Zagrosian farmer.

Nah not even eastern ones bro. Kurds from turkey look foreign to me tbh. Iranians resemble south caucasians more than any other group.

[Sterling Archer]

Nah not even eastern ones bro. Kurds from turkey look foreign to me tbh. Iranians resemble south caucasians more than any other group.

For some reason, I can easily tell apart Iranians from other South Caucasians. There is a distinct Iranian look. Difference is not huge, mind you, but it is there.
This also applies to Iranian Azeris which look somehow distinct (again, not a huge difference) when compared to the Republic. Still can't understand why.

[Babak]

For some reason, I can easily tell apart Iranians from other South Caucasians. There is a distinct Iranian look. Difference is not huge, mind you, but it is there.
This also applies to Iranian Azeris which look somehow distinct (again, not a huge difference) when compared to the Republic. Still can't understand why.

Same, ik exactly what you mean lol

[Ylla]

I believe the Turkic ancestry is similar to Afghan Turkmens which is why they have an eastern iranic shift.

[XT93]

I believe the Turkic ancestry is similar to Afghan Turkmens which is why they have an eastern iranic shift.

Turks are outliers for their region, some calculators drift more towards Greek Isles or even Balkan, others towards Caucasus/Iran like G25. Seljuks were a mixed bunch, with most samples showing Altai-Siberian mixed with pre Mongol conquest Sintashta and some minor Iranic. Even if it's Afghan Turkmens It's still kinda inaccurate to shift towards Iran imo, even though Afghans today share a lot of Iranic, Siberian admixture should be their own cluster. I personally consider K12 the most accurate one, especially if considering phenotypes, it particulary is able to show the divide between East/West Turkey pretty well.

[Kyp]

Turks are outliers for their region, some calculators drift more towards Greek Isles or even Balkan, others towards Caucasus/Iran like G25. Seljuks were a mixed bunch, with most samples showing Altai-Siberian mixed with pre Mongol conquest Sintashta and some minor Iranic. Even if it's Afghan Turkmens It's still kinda inaccurate to shift towards Iran imo, even though Afghans today share a lot of Iranic, Siberian admixture should be their own cluster. I personally consider K12 the most accurate one, especially if considering phenotypes, it particulary is able to show the divide between East/West Turkey pretty well.

Sintashta is Iranic. I think you are referring to BMAC ancestry.

[Kyp]

For some reason, I can easily tell apart Iranians from other South Caucasians. There is a distinct Iranian look. Difference is not huge, mind you, but it is there.
This also applies to Iranian Azeris which look somehow distinct (again, not a huge difference) when compared to the Republic. Still can't understand why.

Check this thread (I wonder about your opinion):
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?359683-North-amp-Iranian-Azerbaijanis-Phenotypes-comparison

[Ylla]

Turks are outliers for their region, some calculators drift more towards Greek Isles or even Balkan, others towards Caucasus/Iran like G25. Seljuks were a mixed bunch, with most samples showing Altai-Siberian mixed with pre Mongol conquest Sintashta and some minor Iranic. Even if it's Afghan Turkmens It's still kinda inaccurate to shift towards Iran imo, even though Afghans today share a lot of Iranic, Siberian admixture should be their own cluster. I personally consider K12 the most accurate one, especially if considering phenotypes, it particulary is able to show the divide between East/West Turkey pretty well.

Could it be possible that Turkic tribes mixed with locals along the way?

[Mejgusu]

Could it be possible that Turkic tribes mixed with locals along the way?

Yes, Oghuz and Turkmen tribes brought Iranic admixture to Anatolia, although I think the first waves of Oghuz settlements were most probably unmixed. Turks had dynamic movements until their ethnogenesis ended in the 16/17th century. They also brought Anatolian admixture to Iran.

I don’t think nowadays Turkmens are the same like the Oghuz groups 1000 years ago, they are just the closest population alongside with Uzbeks and Bashkirs(and even both have Iranic and Ugric influences).

[XT93]

Sintashta is Iranic. I think you are referring to BMAC ancestry.

Proto-Iranic rather or commonly known as Aryan, modern day Iranians don't carry a lot of it. Central asia before Mongol conquests such as Scythians were Sintashta-Siberian mix, and original Seljuk samples shows a mix of those two and some Iranic. If you look up ancient Kipchak Seljuk samples on K12 you'll see that they have a lot of "Northwest European" admixture which is Sintashta.

[XT93]

Yes, Oghuz and Turkmen tribes brought Iranic admixture to Anatolia, although I think the first waves of Oghuz settlements were most probably unmixed. Turks had dynamic movements until their ethnogenesis ended in the 16/17th century. They also brought Anatolian admixture to Iran.

I don’t think nowadays Turkmens are the same like the Oghuz groups 1000 years ago, they are just the closest population alongside with Uzbeks and Bashkirs(and even both have Iranic and Ugric influences).

This doesn't really add up because Eastern Turkey carries much less Turkic admixture, but also a lot more Iranic, while Western Turkey is the most Turkic influenced areas but Iranic influence is rather low, the Iranian influence they brought were quite negligible and pre Turkic Anatolia already did show heavy Caucasus influence, they weren't Mycenean Greeks (for the most part) but Anatolians that were Hellenized. Kurdish migrations most likely brought much more of Iranic influence.

[Babak]

Proto-Iranic rather or commonly known as Aryan, modern day Iranians don't carry a lot of it. Central asia before Mongol conquests such as Scythians were Sintashta-Siberian mix, and original Seljuk samples shows a mix of those two and some Iranic. If you look up ancient Kipchak Seljuk samples on K12 you'll see that they have a lot of "Northwest European" admixture which is Sintashta.

Eastern Iranians score quite a bit of sintashta-like ancestry tbh. Kermanis and Khorasanis for example can have up to 22%

Western Iranians range from 10-18.

[Mejgusu]

This doesn't really add up because Eastern Turkey carries much less Turkic admixture, but also a lot more Iranic, while Western Turkey is the most Turkic influenced areas but Iranic influence is rather low, the Iranian influence they brought were quite negligible and pre Turkic Anatolia already did show heavy Caucasus influence, they weren't Mycenean Greeks (for the most part) but Anatolians that were Hellenized. Kurdish migrations most likely brought much more of Iranic influence.

Nope, its true. Like I said, first waves weren’t probably mixed, but Turkish migration didn’t stop after Malazgirt and Turkification of Anatolia was a process of many centuries. And Turks didn’t stay at one place and changed their settlements many times, which included adopting and spreading non Turkic admixture like Iranic to Anatolia and Anatolian to Iran. Central Anatolian Turks clearly have Iranic influence which wasn’t existing there, Azeris have Anatolian shift which many Iranians don’t have. So our discussion weren’t about who has the most or least Turkic ancestry, it was about did Turks bring other foreign admixture to the places where they settled. And the answer is obviously yes. Your last sentences aren’t new and dont matter for our discussion, but they are right.


It could be a case of native tribes of each region having a different genetic profile.Eastern Turkey was always iranic-like if you look at Bronze Age Armenians. Western Turkey being more Anatolian farmer shifted.

Yeah, Transcaucasia had kinda Iranic influence but XT93 is right that Kurds and Zazas brought immense Iranic admixture, amd they probably came just few centuries before Turks. Iranic admixture was spread to places in Anatolia by Turkish tribes, where it wasn’t existing before Turks.

[Ylla]

It could be a case of native tribes of each region having a different genetic profile.Eastern Turkey was always iranic-like if you look at Bronze Age Armenians. Western Turkey being more Anatolian farmer shifted.

[XT93]

Nope, its true. Like I said, first waves weren’t probably mixed, but Turkish migration didn’t stop after Malazgirt and Turkification of Anatolia was a process of many centuries. And Turks didn’t stay at one place and changed their settlements many times, which included adopting and spreading non Turkic admixture like Iranic to Anatolia and Anatolian to Iran. Central Anatolian Turks clearly have Iranic influence which wasn’t existing there, Azeris have Anatolian shift which many Iranians don’t have. So our discussion wasn’t about who has the most or least Turkic ancestry, it was about did Turks bring other foreign admixture to the places where they settled. And the answer is obviously yes. Your last sentences aren’t new and dont matter FGor our discussion, but they are right.
Iranic influence in terms of CHG did exist, Pre Turkic Anatolia were EEF-CHG mix, unlike the mycenenans which were heavily EEF, Turkic migrations brought Zagrosian admixture but nowhere near the levels you're speaking of, Armenians always were for example Iranic leaning. Azeris are a matter of migration patterns that has quite heavy amounts of history behind it like the Shia Qizilbash Turks. I never denied they brought Anatolian influence to Iran, but it's negligible, you're talking as if there's some major genetical shift, when the most Turkic areas show the least Iranic influence, much of Eastern Turkey barely has any Turkic influence genetically.

[XT93]

It could be a case of native tribes of each region having a different genetic profile.Eastern Turkey was always iranic-like if you look at Bronze Age Armenians. Western Turkey being more Anatolian farmer shifted.

This is correct, Armenians and Caucasus always did show a genetic profile leaning towards Iran more, specifically Caucasus but they're a Iranic cluster in the end. Kurdish migrations during the safavid era into Assyrian and Armenian lands amplified the Iranification of Eastern Turkey, this was not something that happened due to Turkic migrations.

[XT93]

Yeah, Transcaucasia had kinda Iranic influence but XT93 is right that Kurds and Zazas brought immense Iranic admixture, amd they probably came just few centuries before Turks. Iranic admixture was spread to places in Anatolia by Turkish tribes, where it wasn’t existing before Turks.

Inaccurate, check the samples of antique Eastern Turkey, it shows a more Southern Caucasus drift rather than Kurdish esque of the modern day, they were Assyrians and Armenians who do belong to the Iranic cluster, but they weren't kurds, kurdish migrations occured rather later, specifically during the Safavid era.

[Mejgusu]

...

I don’t mention any amounts, but everything what I said is true, sorry.


...

Nope, its accurate. Armenians and definitely not Assyrians are no way that Iranic like Kurds. I know enough ancient samples to claim certainly that Turks definitely brought Iranic influence, and I am not speaking about Eastern Anatolia. I don’t say its immensely, it’s visible and worth mentioning. The same counts for Anatolian influence among Azerbaijanis. And Kurds did exist before Safevid era, they just weren’t remarkable/dominant ethnic group then in nowadays Eastern Turkey.

You are stating obvious facts where I agree with but they don’t matter for this topic.


...

I won’t post a new posting for this. Western Turks aren’t close to Kurds, no one claimed that, we are talking about Iranic influence which can be found among many Turks outside of Eastern Anatolia. Kurds have steppe influence which doesn’t make them related to Russians, thats your logic. But they have steppe. Like many of us have Iranic. Kurds did exist in other places too. Good evening.

[XT93]

I don’t mention any amounts, but everything what I said is true, sorry.



Nope, its accurate. Armenians and definitely not Assyrians are no way that Iranic like Kurds. I know enough ancient samples to claim certainly that Turks definitely brought Iranic influence, and I am not speaking about Eastern Anatolia. I don’t say its immensely, it’s visible and worth mentioning. The same counts for Anatolian influence among Azerbaijanis. And Kurds did exist before Safevid era, they just weren’t remarkable/dominant ethnic group then in nowadays Eastern Turkey.

You are stating obvious facts where I agree with but they don’t matter for this topic.

Where did I deny that they didn't carry Iranic influence? They did, just not in any big amounts, genetical "Iranic" shifts didn't occur due to Turkic migrations, but rather by actual Iranics like Kurds.
Armenians and Assyrians are South Caucasians that cluster in the Iranic cluster, they are part of the Iranic groups in that sense, Kurds did exist before the safavid era, but not really in Eastern Turkey except areas like Sirnak, once again the most Turkic areas (western anatolia) are less related to Kurds than even Armenians and Assyrians, I don't see where you're going with this, even if you use G25 which has a Caucasus leaning and plot Western Anatolians the Iranic influence is not apparent compared to other groups, neither does ancient Kipchak samples carry heavy Iranic influence as you say, just minor, Turkic migrations were not the culprit, as it makes simply no sense.

What I am stating is that Eastern Anatolia already were southern Caucasus shifted and Kurdish migrations then amplified it, Iranic influence is dominant there for a reason even though Turkic admixture is rather low, ancient samples exist already to prove this.

[Kyp]

Iranic influence in terms of CHG did exist, Pre Turkic Anatolia were EEF-CHG mix, unlike the mycenenans which were heavily EEF, Turkic migrations brought Zagrosian admixture but nowhere near the levels you're speaking of, Armenians always were for example Iranic leaning. Azeris are a matter of migration patterns that has quite heavy amounts of history behind it like the Shia Qizilbash Turks. I never denied they brought Anatolian influence to Iran, but it's negligible, you're talking as if there's some major genetical shift, when the most Turkic areas show the least Iranic influence, much of Eastern Turkey barely has any Turkic influence genetically.

What he is saying it brough Iranic admix to Western Anatolia, which previously didnt exist and he is right. Check the difference between Greeks from Izmir and Turks from Aydin for example:

Target: Turk_Aydin
Distance: 0.5656% / 0.00565641
38.0 Anatolia_Chalcolithic
18.0 Steppe
14.6 Iran_CHL
13.2 Early_Mongolia
7.4 CZE_Early_Slav
5.8 Caucasus
2.6 Semitic
0.4 African

Target: Greek_Izmir
Distance: 1.6775% / 0.01677500
56.2 Anatolia_Chalcolithic
22.4 CZE_Early_Slav
17.2 Steppe
4.2 Semitic




This is correct, Armenians and Caucasus always did show a genetic profile leaning towards Iran more, specifically Caucasus but they're a Iranic cluster in the end. Kurdish migrations during the safavid era into Assyrian and Armenian lands amplified the Iranification of Eastern Turkey, this was not something that happened due to Turkic migrations.


Armenians aren't that much Iran shifted compared to Turks. I think you just dislike Iranians.

Distance to: Iranian_Fars
16.24234897 Turk_South
16.31005825 Turk_Central_East
17.69388312 Turk_Central_West
19.36697189 Turk_Southwest
20.03573058 Armenian_East
20.40071322 Armenian_West
21.23221609 Turk_Northwest


Distance to: Iranian_Central
14.90382501 Turk_Central_East
15.16603112 Turk_South
16.53811658 Turk_Central_West
18.15927587 Armenian_East
18.43094138 Turk_Southwest
18.91084081 Armenian_West
20.32586038 Turk_Northwest


Then lets not forget all the turks in Iran who make up sizable portions of all regions, who would plot even closer to Turks.

[XT93]

What he is saying it brough Iranic admix to Western Anatolia, which previously didnt exist and he is right. Check the difference between Greeks from Izmir and Turks from Aydin for example:

Target: Turk_Aydin
Distance: 0.5656% / 0.00565641
38.0 Anatolia_Chalcolithic
18.0 Steppe
14.6 Iran_CHL
13.2 Early_Mongolia
7.4 CZE_Early_Slav
5.8 Caucasus
2.6 Semitic
0.4 African

Target: Greek_Izmir
Distance: 1.6775% / 0.01677500
56.2 Anatolia_Chalcolithic
22.4 CZE_Early_Slav
17.2 Steppe
4.2 Semitic






Armenians aren't that much Iran shifted compared to Turks. I think you just dislike Iranians.

Distance to: Iranian_Fars
16.24234897 Turk_South
16.31005825 Turk_Central_East
17.69388312 Turk_Central_West
19.36697189 Turk_Southwest
20.03573058 Armenian_East
20.40071322 Armenian_West
21.23221609 Turk_Northwest


Distance to: Iranian_Central
14.90382501 Turk_Central_East
15.16603112 Turk_South
16.53811658 Turk_Central_West
18.15927587 Armenian_East
18.43094138 Turk_Southwest
18.91084081 Armenian_West
20.32586038 Turk_Northwest


Then lets not forget all the turks in Iran who make up sizable portions of all regions, who would plot even closer to Turks.

I don't dislike Iranians, G25 has a Caucasus leaning, Armenians are heavy CHG similar to Trabzon Turks, it's super clear in G25 that they cluster closer to Kurds though, just check Illustrative DNA PCA charts. Greek_Izmir samples are quite different from e.g Greek_Kos, Greek_Izmir has have heavy Slavic input similar to Mainland Greeks, you're nitpicking in this case, and Slavic influence obviously does not exist if you go by Ancient samples.
If you go by K12 which I suggested there's a clear culprit. But let's say we go by G25, Iran_CHL did exist in Byzantine era Anatolia, specifically in the East.
The tilt of Iranians to Turks also has to do with the fact that non-Iranic influence in Iranics such as Turkic, but there's a clear G25 Caucasus shift compared to e.g K12.

Turkic migrations were not the culprit for Iranic influence, but rather minor, Iranic influence also does exist even in Slavic shifted Mainland Greeks for most models, you're assuming that everything was connected to Turkic migrations.

[Kyp]

I don't dislike Iranians, G25 has a Caucasus leaning, Armenians are heavy CHG similar to Trabzon Turks, it's super clear in G25 that they cluster closer to Kurds though, just check Illustrative DNA PCA charts. Greek_Izmir samples are quite different from e.g Greek_Kos, Greek_Izmir has have heavy Slavic input similar to Mainland Greeks, you're nitpicking in this case, and Slavic influence obviously does not exist if you go by Ancient samples.
If you go by K12 which I suggested there's a clear culprit. But let's say we go by G25, Iran_CHL did exist in Byzantine era Anatolia, specifically in the East.
The tilt of Iranians to Turks also has to do with the fact that non-Iranic influence in Iranics such as Turkic, but there's a clear G25 Caucasus shift compared to e.g K12.

Turkic migrations were not the culprit for Iranic influence, but rather minor, Iranic influence also does exist even in Slavic shifted Mainland Greeks for most models, you're assuming that everything was connected to Turkic migrations.

I posted K12 results not G25.

[XT93]

I posted K12 results not G25.

My bad, I double checked and it's that Iranians carry Turkic influence that tilts them to Turks, Armenians are heavy CHG, but Kurds end up closer due to likely admixture with them. Greek_Cappadocia for example carries Iranic influence, you're cherrypicking in this case.

Here's a G25 model, that includes TUR_Ottoman, CHG is excessive due to G25 modeling. But even with Turkic included, Chalcholithic Iran is obvious and apparent, Pre Turkic Anatolians show same obvious CHL_Iran influence, Turkic migrations were not the main contribution of Iranic influence.

114082

[Kyp]

My bad, I double checked and it's that Iranians carry Turkic influence that tilts them to Turks, Armenians are heavy CHG, but Kurds end up closer due to likely admixture with them. Greek_Cappadocia for example carries Iranic influence, you're cherrypicking in this case.

Here's a G25 model, that includes TUR_Ottoman, CHG is excessive due to G25 modeling. But even with Turkic included, Chalcholithic Iran is obvious and apparent, Pre Turkic Anatolians show same obvious CHL_Iran influence, Turkic migrations were not the main contribution of Iranic influence.

114082

Cappadocia lies in Central-to-Eastern Turkey. The topic was about Western Turks, thats why I tried to use West Anatolian Greeks. Not because of cherrypicking.

Obviously there is a cline of Iranian-like admixture from west to east in pre-turkic Anatolia intermediated into Kura-Arax like populations. Kura Arax culture essentially is a mix of Caucasus, Anatolia and Iran.

However the point stands that Turks from Western anatolia most likely are much closer to Iranians than non-turkic Western Anatolians would be to Iranians. That's because of both increased Iran_chl ancestry in Turks and turkic influence in iranians.

[XT93]

Cappadocia lies in Central-to-Eastern Turkey. The topic was about Western Turks, thats why I tried to use West Anatolian Greeks. Not because of cherrypicking.

Obviously there is a cline of Iranian-like admixture from west to east in pre-turkic Anatolia intermediated into Kura-Arax like populations. Kura Arax culture essentially is a mix of Caucasus, Anatolia and Iran.

However the point stands that Turks from Western anatolia most likely are much closer to Iranians than non-turkic Western Anatolians would be to Iranians. That's because of both increased Iran_chl ancestry in Turks and turkic influence in iranians.

It hasn't increased, that's where you're getting it wrong, check Greek_Kos samples for example, Greek_Izmir is more similar to Mainland Greeks than Anatolian Greeks. It's rather Iranians that have shifted towards Anatolians + Turkic influence. K12 Western Turks still plot alongside Island Greeks like I mentioned before, It's anatolian and Turkic shifted for Iranians, not Turks shifting to Iranians. The only exception is Eastern Turkey that has increased signficiantly due to Kurdish influence AND the fact that the previous population (Assyrian and Armenians) are heavy CHG/Kura-araxas like that Iranians share genetically.

[Kyp]

It hasn't increased, that's where you're getting it wrong, check Greek_Kos samples for example, Greek_Izmir is more similar to Mainland Greeks than Anatolian Greeks. It's rather Iranians that have shifted towards Anatolians + Turkic influence. K12 Western Turks still plot alongside Island Greeks like I mentioned before, It's anatolian and Turkic shifted for Iranians, not Turks shifting to Iranians. The only exception is Eastern Turkey that has increased signficiantly due to Kurdish influence AND the fact that the previous population (Assyrian and Armenians) are heavy CHG/Kura-araxas like that Iranians share genetically.


It's pretty clear to me..

Target: Greek_Kos
Distance: 1.2412% / 0.01241201
68.6 Anatolia_Chalcolithic
24.4 Steppe
5.4 Semitic
1.2 Iran_CHL
0.4 African

Target: Greek_Dodecanese
Distance: 1.1954% / 0.01195357
71.4 Anatolia_Chalcolithic
21.8 Steppe
5.6 Semitic
0.6 African
0.6 Helmand_BA


Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 0.5237% / 0.00523671
32.4 Anatolia_Chalcolithic
21.4 Steppe
20.8 Iran_CHL
13.0 Early_Mongolia
4.0 Caucasus
3.2 CZE_Early_Slav
2.8 Semitic
2.4 Helmand_BA

Target: Turkish_Aydin
Distance: 0.5660% / 0.00566042
36.8 Anatolia_Chalcolithic
18.2 Steppe
15.2 Iran_CHL
13.2 Early_Mongolia
7.6 CZE_Early_Slav
6.2 Caucasus
2.4 Semitic
0.4 African

Im not saying this is from iranians. It's most likely from Turkmens and Anatolian Greeks from inner-anatolia. But the fact remains that the turkic migration easternized western Anatolia.

[XT93]

It's pretty clear to me..

Target: Greek_Kos
Distance: 1.2412% / 0.01241201
68.6 Anatolia_Chalcolithic
24.4 Steppe
5.4 Semitic
1.2 Iran_CHL
0.4 African

Target: Greek_Dodecanese
Distance: 1.1954% / 0.01195357
71.4 Anatolia_Chalcolithic
21.8 Steppe
5.6 Semitic
0.6 African
0.6 Helmand_BA


Target: Turkish_Southwest
Distance: 0.5237% / 0.00523671
32.4 Anatolia_Chalcolithic
21.4 Steppe
20.8 Iran_CHL
13.0 Early_Mongolia
4.0 Caucasus
3.2 CZE_Early_Slav
2.8 Semitic
2.4 Helmand_BA

Target: Turkish_Aydin
Distance: 0.5660% / 0.00566042
36.8 Anatolia_Chalcolithic
18.2 Steppe
15.2 Iran_CHL
13.2 Early_Mongolia
7.6 CZE_Early_Slav
6.2 Caucasus
2.4 Semitic
0.4 African

Are you really using Iran_CHL? Illustrative DNA PCA charts plot Turks inbetween Seljuk Turks and Anatolian Greeks utilizing G25, not drifted towards Iranics for western Turks, only Eastern and part-central, Zagrosians are circled in the image. I can make a proper G25/K12 model when I come home.
https://i.gyazo.com/9f46641f278d7d7ad82b11db71e1fef6.png

[Kyp]

Are you really using Iran_CHL? Illustrative DNA PCA charts plot Turks inbetween Seljuk Turks and Anatolian Greeks utilizing G25, not drifted towards Iranics for western Turks, only Eastern and part-central, Zagrosians are circled in the image. I can make a proper G25/K12 model when I come home.
https://i.gyazo.com/9f46641f278d7d7ad82b11db71e1fef6.png

From your PCA it looks like the most northern turks are in between Greek Islanders and Uzbeks which makes sense. Uzbeks already are Iranic influenced.

If you model with Medieval Turkics, they are in between Central Anatolians. Central Anatolian Greeks have a Iran shift compared to Aegan Greeks. So one way or the other they have Iran admix.

As I said in my previous post. That admix in Western Turkey most likely comes from Turkmens or Central Anatolians.

[XT93]

From your PCA it looks like the most northern turks are in between Greek Islanders and Uzbeks which makes sense. Uzbeks already are Iranic influenced.

If you model with Medieval Turkics, they are in between Central Anatolians. Central Anatolian Greeks have a Iran shift compared to Aegan Greeks. So one way or the other they have Iran admix.

As I said in my previous post. That admix in Western Turkey most likely comes from Turkmens or Central Anatolians.
The blue dots I circled are Zagrosians. The Seljuks weren't as heavily Iranic influenced though, and the PCA is based on G25 which I find excessively tilting towards Caucasus, you can see the Iranian Turkmens shifting towards Zagrosians. I never denied Iranic influence, just that it coming from Turkic migrations doesn't add up to ancient samples, nor does 10%+ Iran_CHL to other models, It's possible it gets confused with CHG. Western Turks are obviously tilted towards Greek Islanders more if going by K12, we're partly also ignoring migration patterns, modern day Western Turkey is a mix of all of Turkey to be honest, if you want a completely honest answer then I suggest you go by Turkish DNA Project samples where the only samples counting are of Turks who have lived in the same place for three generations, I have tested most of Western Turkey and NW Turkey is very clearly heavily Greek Island shifted with minor Iranic influence.

https://turkishdnaproject.com/admixture/

[Thracian]

For Turks I doubt it, there's a massive Caucasus drift on G25 compared to all other calculators (and a little bit of Turkic). If using Turkish DNA project K12 samples all western Turks show a Greek-islander drift with significantly weaker Caucasus connection which to me makes much more sense than saying some native Izmirite and Azeri are identical. It generally seems G25 strengthens outliers like Caucasus and partially Turkic admixture (Kayseri Turks are somehow closer than any Balkanoids). My results are below G25 Scaled/k13/k12, I'm half Balkan Turk Half Anatolian Turk fyi.
https://i.gyazo.com/11390daa159ea43877e4600970ce5b80.png
https://i.gyazo.com/afb438932e289e2f79cb93de5c6cc424.png
https://i.gyazo.com/0adff3b7dc0c2ab87d7e57933e074c0f.png

In my case, all of them are correlated. I mean my distance lists for k12b, k13 and G25 are quite similar.

[RogueState]

My bad, I double checked and it's that Iranians carry Turkic influence that tilts them to Turks, Armenians are heavy CHG, but Kurds end up closer due to likely admixture with them. Greek_Cappadocia for example carries Iranic influence, you're cherrypicking in this case.

Here's a G25 model, that includes TUR_Ottoman, CHG is excessive due to G25 modeling. But even with Turkic included, Chalcholithic Iran is obvious and apparent, Pre Turkic Anatolians show same obvious CHL_Iran influence, Turkic migrations were not the main contribution of Iranic influence.

114082

If we round up these results with modern population, how good is it to model average Turk as ?
- 25% Turkmen + 37,5% Armenian + 12,5% Bulgarian + 25% Anatolian Greek

[XT93]

If we round up these results with modern population, how good is it to model average Turk as ?
- 25% Turkmen + 37,5% Armenian + 12,5% Bulgarian + 25% Anatolian Greek

For G25 estimates, in terms of Anatolian Turks It's usually 60-70% Anatolian Greek + 20-30% Seljuk with Thracian, Slavic, CHG or Zagrosian thrown into the mix with variance, it generally depends heavily on region. And yes, Anatolian Greek does carry Iranic influence, despite what some people here seem to suggest, atleast the ancient samples do, once again I'm not denying Turkic migrations brought Iranic influence, it did, but it also existed according to most ancient samples in minor levels, otherwise most Turks would need Zagrosian influence when plotting, which only occurs with Eastern Turks.
The samples Illustrative DNA uses are these for Seljuk Turks. While for Anatolian Greek it uses ITA_Rome_Imperial (RMPR44).

https://i.gyazo.com/aff1b18678ba51765f55c99d640138a8.png

A Turk from Aydin for example gets the one below, Aydin has heavy amounts of Turkic.

https://i.gyazo.com/7fff91267e118e7c398c327dba4398e3.png

[XT93]

In my case, all of them are correlated. I mean my distance lists for k12b, k13 and G25 are quite similar.

Well, you are pure Balkan Turk and don't have the CHG influence Anatolian Turks have or the very high amounts of Turkic western Anatolians tend to have, which is precisely my point, G25 tends to skew Turkic and CHG admixture heavily into their own cluster which is why Anatolian Turks plot very differently on G25 vs K12 and K13, it's why I plot differently and get shifted away.

For example, the closest Turks to Greek Islanders are Kayseri Turks on G25, not Western Turks, which I find quite silly.

[Kyp]

Well, you are pure Balkan Turk and don't have the CHG influence Anatolian Turks have or the very high amounts of Turkic western Anatolians tend to have, which is precisely my point, G25 tends to skew Turkic and CHG admixture heavily into their own cluster which is why Anatolian Turks plot very differently on G25 vs K12 and K13, it's why I plot differently and get shifted away.

For example, the closest Turks to Greek Islanders are Kayseri Turks on G25, not Western Turks, which I find quite silly.

Maybe because western turks carry extensive turkic admixture, which obviously makes them drift away, even tho they carry more West Anatolian DNA.

I don't think it's that silly.

[Voskos]

Because of what Kyp said and because the Persians owned that land for ages.

[Sora]

Due to they have more Turkic ancestry than other Anatolian Turks(even more than me ühü ühü lol) and Greco-Anatolian populations were extremely West Asian

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1r8-el2MSQ8pa69f_NUwHEvKwh61PFpq8sBRY0NzcHDo/edit#gid=493442652

[Sora]

Due to they have more Turkic ancestry than other Anatolian Turks(even more than me ühü ühü lol) and Greco-Anatolian populations were extremely West Asian

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1r8-el2MSQ8pa69f_NUwHEvKwh61PFpq8sBRY0NzcHDo/edit#gid=493442652

[Leto]

This kind of look must be rarer in Iranian Azerbaijan (which ain't true AZ to me as a Russian) than in the country of the same name but also more common in Turkey and the North Caucasus. Singer Nadir Rustamli (I doubt it's recent European ancestry 'cause he ain't from a big city)
https://eurovoxx.tv/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/439074555_0_0_2000_1330_1920x0_80_0_0_551308a80077 e2c2d98cd61f38808659.webp
https://primalinformation.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Nadir-Rustamli.webp

[Kyp]

This kind of look must be rarer in Iranian Azerbaijan (which ain't true AZ to me as a Russian) than in the country of the same name but also more common in Turkey and the North Caucasus. Singer Nadir Rustamli (I doubt it's recent European ancestry 'cause he ain't from a big city)
https://eurovoxx.tv/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/439074555_0_0_2000_1330_1920x0_80_0_0_551308a80077 e2c2d98cd61f38808659.webp
https://primalinformation.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Nadir-Rustamli.webp

Not really tbh. Dont see him looking that atypically.

Here are results from his homecity:

Gedrosian: 21.90
Siberian: 1.62
Northwest_African: 1.29
Southeast_Asian: 0.05
Atlantic_Med: 9.17
North_European: 10.59
South_Asian 4.42
East_African 0.00
Southwest_Asian: 12.24
East_Asian: 1.05
Caucasian: 37.67
SSA: 0.00


Gedrosian: 20.48
Siberian: 2.83
Northwest_African: 0.00
Southeast_Asian: 0.61
Atlantic_Med: 9.74
North_European: 8.73
South_Asian 3.20
East_African 0.00
Southwest_Asian: 13.03
East_Asian: 1.56
Caucasian: 39.83
SSA: 0.00

Gedrosian: 24.68
Siberian: 2.23
Northwest_African: 0.00
Southeast_Asian: 1.74
Atlantic_Med: 6.57
North_European: 8.99
South_Asian 3.32
East_African 0.00
Southwest_Asian: 13.90
East_Asian: 2.29
Caucasian: 36.27
SSA: 0.00

Distance to: Azerbaijani_Salyan_average
2.45040813 Azerbaijani_Iran
2.50846567 Azerbaijani_Tabriz
3.15789487 Azerbaijani_Republic
3.91231389 Kurd_Kordestan
4.06096048 Dersim
4.14416457 Kurd_Kurmanji
4.41839337 Azerbaijani_Turkey
5.22668155 Iranian_Isfahan
5.31109217 Kurd_Kermanshah
5.41509926 Azerbaijani_Northwest
5.45784756 Yazidi_Kurd
5.61832715 Turkmen_Iraq
5.72645615 Turk_Southeast
6.04142367 Azerbaijani_North
6.20072576 Talysh_Azerbaijan
6.20445807 Kurd_Sorani
6.43669170 Iranian_Central
6.89795622 Iranian_Zoroastrian
7.38728638 Azerbaijani_Dagestan
8.10904433 Iranian_Fars
8.13472188 Kurd_Feyli
8.35067063 Iranian_Lur
8.86940810 Turk_Central_East
9.31351169 Turk_South
9.31491277 Udi_Azerbaijan

[Leto]

Proto-Iranic rather or commonly known as Aryan, modern day Iranians don't carry a lot of it. Central asia before Mongol conquests such as Scythians were Sintashta-Siberian mix, and original Seljuk samples shows a mix of those two and some Iranic. If you look up ancient Kipchak Seljuk samples on K12 you'll see that they have a lot of "Northwest European" admixture which is Sintashta.
This Uzbek from Samarkand is quite Early Turkic to me. There is his K12b somewhere in that thread and even his photo (he's light skinned with gray eyes, not the most typical Uzbek). His Y DNA is some kind of N.

Target: Odil_simulated_g25_scaled
Distance: 1.7960% / 0.01795971
33.8 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave
29.6 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
16.4 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
6.2 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA
6.0 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
5.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
2.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

[Babak]

This kind of look must be rarer in Iranian Azerbaijan (which ain't true AZ to me as a Russian) than in the country of the same name but also more common in Turkey and the North Caucasus. Singer Nadir Rustamli (I doubt it's recent European ancestry 'cause he ain't from a big city)
https://eurovoxx.tv/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/439074555_0_0_2000_1330_1920x0_80_0_0_551308a80077 e2c2d98cd61f38808659.webp
https://primalinformation.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Nadir-Rustamli.webp

Nah we got plenty of those even in southern and southwest provinces. Looks a bit like kurdish user Zoran

[Sterling Archer]

This kind of look must be rarer in Iranian Azerbaijan (which ain't true AZ to me as a Russian) than in the country of the same name but also more common in Turkey and the North Caucasus. Singer Nadir Rustamli (I doubt it's recent European ancestry 'cause he ain't from a big city)

You are right, he is from Salyan which is provincial as fuck.
Despite what Kyp and Babak said I don't think he looks that typical, especially for Iran.

Here he is next to a Danish guy. Tell me you could tell apart Nadir from some rando North European:
https://i.imgur.com/145wuzw.jpg

[Sterling Archer]

By the way, here is another guy from Salyan. Kamil Shirinov was a soldier who died in the recent Karabakh war:
https://i.imgur.com/EYFZcw5.jpg

[XT93]

Maybe because western turks carry extensive turkic admixture, which obviously makes them drift away, even tho they carry more West Anatolian DNA.

I don't think it's that silly.

They drift in the wrong direction imo, It skews them towards Iranians, while I understand Turkic influence exists in Iran, majority of the DNA in Western Turkey is West Anatolian. G25 simply weighs Turkic influence in a much heavier manner than K12 or K13 does. That Kayseri Turks are more related to Greek Islanders than a Izmir Turk to me makes no sense, to be frank. Even Circassians are closer than Greek islanders on G25, there's a obvious weight shifting going on, which is why I find K12 more accurate when plotting, especially with Turkish DNA Project samples. K12 has its flaws as well, especially in terms of CHG + Zagrosian and Gedrosian weighting, but for Turks i'd say its more accurate, especially when you look at differences between Turk_Northwest between K12 and G25, the difference is enormous.

The ironic part is that Greeks carry significant amount of Iranic on G25 compared to K12, It's not the Iranic influence or CHG, but Turkic that is heavily weighted in G25.

[XT93]

I made a model that should honestly explain the differences, overall It's because G25 heavily skews Proto-Mongol admixture away from Europeans or from those who don't carry it into a more Eastern-Cluster, Iranians also carry Proto-Mongol in small amounts so it gets further shifted towards them, otherwise the rest of the admixtures aren't that related compared to say Western-Turk vs Greek admixture. If you look at Turk_NorthWest there's clear distinctions compared to Iranians.

https://i.gyazo.com/910625b0be3e3fb15d09ec8b2789fcd5.png