Most germanic region in the British Isles?

[Lannister]

Genetically speaking, is it East Anglia, Shetland or other?

[Charlemagne7]

East Anglia probably, although shetlanders have a lot Viking DNA, so I'm not sure.

[Lannister]

Yorkshire could be a good candidate too.

[J. Ketch]

Where do you think it is, based on people you've seen?

[Ayetooey]

Parts of Yorkshire I’d say. East Anglia perhaps has higher Germanic than some other regions, but I would wager it also has more southern/french like admix and less beaker overall, causing it to drift further way from North Germanics. East Anglia also has the second lowest rate of light eyes in the British isles (only Cornwall is darker) and by far the lowest rates of red hair. A pure east Anglian with a very in-depth family tree on another anthro forum plots near Belgians.

[Lannister]

Where do you think it is, based on people you've seen?

East Anglia maybe, but it would be nice to see how people from Shetland look, it's hard to find group pics of Shetlanders. Which region do you personally think is the most germanic genetically?

[Lannister]

Parts of Yorkshire I’d say. East Anglia perhaps has higher Germanic than some other regions, but I would wager it also has more southern/french like admix and less beaker overall, causing it to drift further way from North Germanics. East Anglia also has the second lowest rate of light eyes in the British isles (only Cornwall is darker) and by far the lowest rates of red hair. A pure east Anglian with a very in-depth family tree on another anthro forum plots near Belgians.

The lower light eyes rate in Southern England is a result of more continental celtic input, right?

[Ayetooey]

The lower light eyes rate in Southern England is a result of more continental celtic input, right?

Probably. Anglo Saxons were scandanavian like genetically and probably lighter eyed than the romanised Briton population. Suffolk has over 10% G2a (common among continental Celts).

[Charlemagne7]

East Anglia maybe, but it would be nice to see how people from Shetland look, it's hard to find group pics of Shetlanders. Which region do you personally think is the most germanic genetically?

So I've managed to find group pics of Shetlanders and to me at least they hardly look any different from regular Scots tbh.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/LX_flEX7Nn6eMrRFkBjjlRvRtW2wzrRVOeSSlQ1Cr0fTFuwyF1 9mGhN9EuqQE14QXhk1HtRd_YXKKhujccSKSI2MG-kNm4NYnoDuLul1emEJufdgq6n3j0_sffnoIWi14ffMqMu6xjL_ 6KbUHSoHjv820mMYoFfTEWMUt2S697xARvVG5ny4npzKKw0_Vk 3iKfaGSoFMbj2rEPaNSD2p

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/yFazc6omHYKbGig0LKmx2O6TtNv9BlC83mSUPvagCoQY6hEu1M pjkOa_Kqw2omckQiSD3NM6wcac-W6UuOcuJOKBHr3YKhH7vLmx7sArMAll0o4fGbDhF8miHwVFzAY q_8SkSySpnqmpM3lFdkfxVINsGao-geFjToW3ZIE

https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Shetland-under-15s-_back-row-from-left__-Ben-Lawson-Jor_303792-scaled.jpg

https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Shetland_Te_c1234166_10729_183_v04-W500.jpg

https://images.pitchero.com/ui/2454605/image_59c2509a7aa4c.JPG

https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/AS5Z1888-1024x683.jpg

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/75392712_685405615200589_2420155298963521536_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=105&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=7BPuRKv6MK8AX_00-1M&_nc_ht=scontent.xx&oh=d5d3c6d77887ea9c93a9ed273fddfafd&oe=60B18D57

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/161175218_1687951998043525_9054833976741431839_n.j pg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=TfyDI8CX2EMAX_E2bAN&_nc_ht=scontent.xx&oh=adf0ef38c1bb9f964518c34a4bb52a0f&oe=60B0B580

[Jana]

Isn't Norb from SE England? I see it's separate region from East Anglia. What's the difference between the 2 genetically?

[Ayetooey]

Isn't Norb from SE England? I see it's separate region from East Anglia. What's the difference between the 2 genetically?

I think he’s half from Sussex half from Essex? (He can correct me). I doubt there’s any different genetically, more of a historical difference with east Anglia being a separate kingdom to Essex, Kent, Sussex (SE England) and with east Anglia being founded by Angiles and the latter kingdoms mainly by Saxons. Essex is grouped as part of the east of England in 2021 for statistical purposes but is historically part of the SE of England not east Anglia.

[Jana]

I think he’s half from Sussex half from Essex? (He can correct me). I doubt there’s any different genetically, more of a historical difference with east Anglia being a separate kingdom to Essex, Kent, Sussex (SE England) and with east Anglia being founded by Angiles and the latter kingdoms mainly by Saxons. Essex is grouped as part of the east of England in 2021 for statistical purposes but is historically part of the SE of England not east Anglia.

Thanks! His results are Belgian shifted too from what I've seen and well, he really looks clasically Germanic. He did say though that people who look like him aren't the norm in his region.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Parts of Yorkshire I’d say. East Anglia perhaps has higher Germanic than some other regions, but I would wager it also has more southern/french like admix and less beaker overall, causing it to drift further way from North Germanics. East Anglia also has the second lowest rate of light eyes in the British isles (only Cornwall is darker) and by far the lowest rates of red hair. A pure east Anglian with a very in-depth family tree on another anthro forum plots near Belgians.
First sentence is correct, but no way East Anglia has a lower rate of light eyes than parts of south/central England, and definitely not Wales or London area. The study you're referring to was blue eyes only, and was probably done on related SNP frequencies(like the red hair study you refer to) which is not in the slightest completely accurate. Red hair is probably correct, but that would probably mean more Germanicness.

Lundman had the northern part of East Anglia lighter eyed than most of England, and hair colour is probably more important as an indicator of Germanic admixture, where East Anglia is among the lightest haired.

https://i.postimg.cc/0yvC8M6p/percentage-of-dark-eyes-UK-barve.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/PSM_V52_D174_Relative_brunetness_of_the_british_is les.png/1200px-PSM_V52_D174_Relative_brunetness_of_the_british_is les.png

I've seen some genetic evidence that Cumbria should be in the discussion, but the PCA I refer to also makes a strong case for South East England, depending on how you interpret it. I personally think SE Scotland save for Edinburgh should also be in the discussion. It could be Orkney or Hebrides, but I don't think it's Shetland as they had a lot of migration from mainland Scotland to erase the Norwegian presence, given the island became Scottish very late. I think it'd have to be a place with both Viking and Anglo-Saxon admixture, somewhere in East England or Cumbria.

[Ayetooey]

First sentence is correct, but no way East Anglia has a lower rate of light eyes than parts of south/central England, and definitely not Wales or London area. The study you're referring to was blue eyes only, and was probably done on related SNP frequencies(like the red hair study you refer to) which is not in the slightest completely accurate. Red hair is probably correct, but that would probably mean more Germanicness.

Lundman had the northern part of East Anglia lighter eyed than most of England, and hair colour is probably more important as an indicator of Germanic admixture, where East Anglia is among the lightest haired.

https://i.postimg.cc/0yvC8M6p/percentage-of-dark-eyes-UK-barve.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/49/PSM_V52_D174_Relative_brunetness_of_the_british_is les.png/1200px-PSM_V52_D174_Relative_brunetness_of_the_british_is les.png

I've seen some genetic evidence that Cumbria should be in the discussion, but the PCA I refer to always makes a strong case for South East England, depending on how you interpret it. I personally think SE Scotland save for Edinburgh should also be in the discussion. It could be Orkney or Hebrides, but I don't think it's Shetland as they had a lot of migration from mainland Scotland to erase the Norwegian presence, given the island became Scottish very late. I think it'd have to be a place with both Viking and Anglo-Saxon admixture, somewhere in East England or Cumbria.
Cumbria has way too much historical and modern day overlap with Scotland to be a contender imo.

[Lannister]

I've seen some genetic evidence that Cumbria should be in the discussion, but the PCA I refer to also makes a strong case for South East England, depending on how you interpret it. I personally think SE Scotland save for Edinburgh should also be in the discussion. It could be Orkney or Hebrides, but I don't think it's Shetland as they had a lot of migration from mainland Scotland to erase the Norwegian presence, given the island became Scottish very late. I think it'd have to be a place with both Viking and Anglo-Saxon admixture, somewhere in East England or Cumbria.

On this paper they claim that Norse admixture is around 44% in Shetland. That's higher germanic than any other place in the UK I think.
https://www.nature.com/articles/6800661#bib14 (it's in the abstract)

[J. Ketch]

East Anglia maybe, but it would be nice to see how people from Shetland look, it's hard to find group pics of Shetlanders. Which region do you personally think is the most germanic genetically?
I don't think there's a great difference in Germanic ancestry across most of England, hence the big red cluster covering most of it in fine-scale studies. East Anglia is often said to have the most, which is probably true, however Northern England is the closest genetically to Scandinavians/North Dutch, at least among the hundreds of gedmatch kits I've collected. The Southeast is the most Germanic part of Scotland, formerly part of Anglo-Saxon Northumbria.

[Lannister]

I don't think there's a great difference in Germanic ancestry across most of England, hence the big red cluster covering most of it in fine-scale studies. East Anglia is often said to have the most, which is probably true, however Northern England is the closest genetically to Scandinavians/North Dutch, at least among the hundreds of gedmatch kits I've collected. The Southeast is the most Germanic part of Scotland, formerly part of Anglo-Saxon Northumbria.

What are your thoughts on Shetlands and Orkney, do you think they might be more germanic than East Anglia?

[J. Ketch]

What are your thoughts on Shetlands and Orkney, do you think they might be more germanic than East Anglia?
No, the most recent study I think showed them to be no more than about 25% Germanic.

The difference is that all their Germanic ancestry is from Norse.

[Lannister]

No, the most recent study I think showed them to be no more than about 25% Germanic.

The difference is that all their Germanic ancestry is from Norse.

You're talking about the POBI right? That was only on Orkney I think. Did you check the paper I posted to XP? There they claim that Shetland is around 44% Norse.

https://www.nature.com/articles/6800661#bib14

[Davystayn]

Yorkshire

"Yorkshire is most Anglo-Saxon region in the UK, DNA analysis suggests"

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/jul/28/yorkshire-is-most-anglo-saxon-region-in-the-uk-dna-analysis-suggests#:~:text=People%20in%20Yorkshire%20have%20 more,the%20UK%20average%20of%2037%25.

[J. Ketch]

You're talking about the POBI right? That was only on Orkney I think. Did you check the paper I posted to XP? There they claim that Shetland is around 44% Norse.

https://www.nature.com/articles/6800661#bib14
Well that's from 2005, and based on uniparentals it seems. Similar studies from the 2000s concluded that Central England was almost identical to Friesland in Y-DNA, and likely to have over 50% Germanic introgression.
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Thomas-PRSB-06-Apartheid.pdf

Also on islands like that with a relatively small populations, small elite groups can have a much larger Y-DNA impact than autosomal.

[J. Ketch]

Yorkshire

"Yorkshire is most Anglo-Saxon region in the UK, DNA analysis suggests"

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/jul/28/yorkshire-is-most-anglo-saxon-region-in-the-uk-dna-analysis-suggests#:~:text=People%20in%20Yorkshire%20have%20 more,the%20UK%20average%20of%2037%25.
That was misleading, fake news as usual from the Guardian, based on Ancestry.com's hopeless old categories, where the modern 'Great Britain' category and 'Anglo-Saxon' codename were considered the same thing.

[J. Ketch]

It is also notable that E-V13 appears to be absent in modern central England, especially the West Midlands and South Midlands.[Note 6] Bird (2007) notes that the collective genetic profile of the English Midlands is similar to that of the Dutch province of Friesland, which was not colonised by Rome, but was, like England, subject to Anglo-Saxon settlement. The so-called "E3b hole" in Central England, according to Steven Bird, may reflect a population replacement – of Romano-British people by Anglo-Saxons.[Note 7] Thomas et al. (2006) raises the possibility of "apartheid"-type, elite dominance social structures in Anglo-Saxon England. Bird (2007) concurs: "The 'E3b hole' suggests that either (a) a massive displacement of the ... Romano-British population by invasion or, (b) the substantial genetic replacement of Romano-British Y-DNA through an elite dominance ("apartheid") model... Regardless of the mechanism, the Central England region ... with its lack of E3b haplotypes, is the area having the most "striking similarity in the distribution of Y-chromosomes" with Friesland."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#Ancient_Britain

[Lannister]

Well that's from 2005, and based on uniparentals it seems. Similar studies from the 2000s concluded that Central England was almost identical to Friesland in Y-DNA, and likely to have over 50% Germanic introgression.
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Thomas-PRSB-06-Apartheid.pdf

Also on islands like that with a relatively small populations, small elite groups can have a much larger Y-DNA impact than autosomal.

Yeah I figured it's probably not that high autosomally, and also, if you add to that the recent migrations from other Scots who are partly Germanic themselves that number could go as high as 60% Germanic, which would be too unrealistic imo at least.

We really need more studies on Shetland, it's a very interesting region.

[Token]

I'm going to appeal to Physical Anthropology since genetics isn't really capable of answering this question accurately yet. The whole eastern coastal regions of Britain are the most Germanic - more Viking in the northeast, more Anglo-Saxon in the southeast. I'd say the differences between these regions is minimal (a weaker Anglo-Saxon contribution in northern England and Scotland would've been compensated by a stronger Viking input). This is from Coon's TRoE:


The general pigment character of Great Britain, as shown on Map 8, is predominantly light mixed. Fair, vascular skin, medium brown hair, an excess of rufosity and freckling, and blue or light-mixed eyes are typical of the British as a whole. This pigment combination without doubt reflects the coloring of the Iron Age Kelts, who have made the greatest single contribution to the present British populatlon. Blondism of Scandinavian intensity, reflecting Saxon and Danish influence, is characteristic of the whole eastern coast of England and Scotland, while a strong brunet survival in Cornwall and Wales indicates the presence of a pre-Keltic population of considerable intensity. The industrial revolution, which has fostered dense under-privileged populations in the Midlands and on the Clyde, has enormously increased, by some selective process, the darker-haired and darker-eyed elements in Britain. In general, differences in social level and in occupation reflect racial differences, which show themselves to a certain extent in pigmentation. The upper social strata, being on the whole blonder, follow the pigment pattern of the Saxons, Danes, and Normans. This differentiation may well have been even stronger in the Middle Ages, when social lines were more strictly and overtly drawn than today. The Englishman who travels abroad and is seen by foreigners, and the one whose photograph frequently appears in the London Illustrated News, is more likely to be blond than the general run of his more obscure compatriots who stay at home, and whose faces are publicly depicted only when they have committed crimes.

The mean for the whole island is approximately 172 cm.,23 which is comparable to Ireland, and to Norway and Sweden. On the whole, Scotland is taller than England, and England taller than Wales. The blond Saxon-Danish strip of country along the North Sea shore, from Scotland through Suffolk, is the tallest part of England, as tall as most of Scotland; while the counties bordering on the Thames estuary and the Channel are taller than those immediately inland. In western England and in Wales, shorter stature is not regionally associated with the most brunet pigmentation. Cornishmen are the tallest of the British west of Berkshire, while the shortest stature in Britain by counties is found, not in the brunet districts of central Wales, but in the mining country of south Wales, in the counties bordering the inner section of the Bristol Channel, in Shropshire and Hereford, and in the counties immediately adjoining London. In no county, however, does the mean fall below 168 cm. although in individual villages in Wales it is as low as 165 cm.24 In Scotland a belt of relatively short stature running from 169 cm. to 171 cm. stretches across the country diagonally from the Clyde to the Forth, and includes the Glasgow industrial area.

The eastern Scottish coast, from Caithness to Berwick, shows little of this black hair, and in general the areas of both Pictish and Saxon concentration are quite deficient in it. This finding should dispel the idea that the Picts were a notably brunet people. Fair hair is commonest in the east, in both highlands and lowlands, and is especially prevalent in the very northeastern corner, and in the Orkneys and Shetlands, where much of the blood is Scandinavian.
Typically Germanic haplogroups peak in eastern Britain, which gives more weight to the evidence.

[J. Ketch]

From the embargoed Cassidy paper

The homogenisation of British population structure through admixture

In contrast to the gentle gradient of ancient Irish variation, British and continental individuals show a more punctuated distribution along PC2 (Fig. 4.6B-C), forming two clear clusters at both ends of modern British variation. Anglo-Saxons fall with southeastern English variation in this and all other PCs considered, alongside a Nordic Iron Age sample, reflecting the large genetic contribution of Germanic migrations to this part of the island (Leslie et al. 2015; Schiffels et al. 2016). Iron Age Britons comprise another tight grouping at the opposite end of British variation, emphasising the admixed nature of the modern population (Leslie et al. 2015; Martiniano et al. 2016; Schiffels et al. 2016). Early snapshots of continental introgression events may be represented by two samples that fall midway between the two groups, one from an Anglo-Saxon context (O3), which was reported as admixed in the original study (Schiffels et al. 2016), and the second from a Roman British population (6DT23), another member of which was demonstrated to be of likely Middle Eastern origin (Martiniano et al. 2016). Notably, no Irish Iron Age samples are seen to fall into this region of the PC space.
The compression of Iron Age British haplotypic variation close to the zero coordinate, relative to that of Ireland, suggests that PC2 may not effectively explain the majority of diversity present within this group, possibly due to their lack of representation within the larger admixed modern British cohort. In this respect, PC2 is perhaps best considered as explaining the distribution of Irish-related haplotypic variation in both modern and ancient individuals, which acts as somewhat of an imperfect proxy for Celtic ancestry in the neighbouring island of Britain, counterbalancing the Anglo-Saxon input. We caution that such a phenomenon may cause similar placement of individuals for unrelated demographic reasons. For example, the placement of Northern Irish and Scottish individuals between the two islands is proposed to be the result of numerous migrations in both directions, including the Gaelicisation of Scotland circa 600 AD and the later Ulster plantations (Byrne et al. submitted). It is notable that no PC segregates Scotland from the rest of the dataset, suggesting the modern population has been mainly borne from admixture, rather than isolation, the reverse of what is proposed for Wales. Indeed, the more muted and systematic shift towards Irish variation of Welsh populations, whose diversity is better captured in PC3 and PC6, may represent more ancient shared Celtic ancestry between the groups. The tight clustering of three German Late Neolithic and Bronze Age individuals at the edge of ancient Irish variation, alongside the Iron Age British population, could also be due to a similar effect of older shared ancestry. Such an interpretation may find some temporal grounding in the differential placement of a Nordic Late Neolithic individual further towards the Germanic extreme of the plot.
https://i.postimg.cc/9MxbDcdC/ZMSBsK1.png
https://i.postimg.cc/Xqp8FtLF/Captureas.jpg

From 'Insular Celtic population structure and genomic
footprints of migration' (2017)


As observed in Fig 1, ChromoPainter PCA in Ireland and Britain (Fig 2) demonstrates
eastern homogeneity for each island and relative diversity on the west coast. The southeast
England (SEE) cluster group anchors PC4, centred at zero, representing a group with
predominantly Anglo-Saxon-like ancestry (S8 Fig). Clusters representing Celtic populations
harbouring less Anglo-Saxon influence separate out above and below SEE on PC4. Notably,
northern Irish clusters (NLU), Scottish (NISC, SSC and NSC), Cumbria (CUM) and North
Wales (NWA) all separate out at a mutually similar level, representing northern Celtic
populations. The southern Celtic populations Cornwall (COR), south Wales (SWA) and south
Munster (SMN) also separate out on similar levels, indicating some shared haplotypic
variation between geographically proximate Celtic populations across both Islands. It is
notable that after the split of the ancestrally divergent Orkney, successive ChromoPainter
PCs describe diversity in British populations where “Anglo-saxonization” was repelled [22].
PC3 is dominated by Welsh variation, while PC4 in turn splits North and South Wales
significantly, placing south Wales adjacent to Cornwall and north Wales at the other extreme
with Cumbria, all enclaves where Brittonic languages persisted.
Scotland is another region of Britain which successfully retained its Celtic language, however
in contrast to Welsh and Cornish clusters, the majority of Scottish variation is described by
ChromoPainter PC1. The three definable Scottish groups do not drive any further
components of variation (up to ChromoPainter PC7 considered) and fall away from the bulk
of British variation on PC1, towards Irish clusters. This is most strikingly observed for the
southern Scottish cluster (SSC) which fell amongst Irish branches in the fineSTRUCTURE
tree, overlapping with samples from the north of Ireland in ChromoPainter PC space (Fig 2
and Fig 5). In an interesting symmetry, many Northern Irish samples clustered strongly with
southern Scottish and northern English samples, defining the Northern
Irish/Cumbrian/Scottish (NICS) cluster group. More generally, by modelling Irish genomes as
a linear mixture of haplotypes from British clusters, we found that Scottish and northern
English samples donated more haplotypes to clusters in the north of Ireland than to the
south, reflecting an overall correlation between Scottish/north English contribution and
ChromoPainter PC1 position in Fig 1 .

[Lannister]

I'm going to appeal to Physical Anthropology since genetics isn't really capable of answering this question accurately yet. The whole eastern coastal regions of Britain are the most Germanic - more Viking in the northeast, more Anglo-Saxon in the southeast. I'd say the differences between these regions is minimal (a weaker Anglo-Saxon contribution in northern England and Scotland would've been compensated by a stronger Viking input). This is from Coon's TRoE:


Typically Germanic haplogroups peak in eastern Britain, which gives more weight to the evidence.

What do you think about the paper I posted, do you think it is accurate/reliable? I ask you because you seem to know a lot about this sort of stuff.

[Rietto66]

Rural parts of Yorkshire and East Anglia probably.

[Token]

What do you think about the paper I posted, do you think it is accurate/reliable? I ask you because you seem to know a lot about this sort of stuff.

The study is based on uniparentals as Creoda pointed out, whole genome analysis is another story. But it agrees with the higher frequencies of Nordic types of the Trondelagen variety - typical of western Norwegian Vikings - in Orkney and Shetland observed by anthropologists.


In the fishing villages of the Yorkshire coast, where local dialects are spoken in which much Scandinavian still remains, and where the older fishermen still wear T-shaped amulets around their necks reminiscent of Thor's hammer, pure Norwegian and Danish physical types are common, and the same is true in the Orkneys and Shetlands.

The Trondelagen type is a more powerful, heavy-boned, coarser-haired variety of the classic Iron Age Nordic (due to Brünn and Corded accretions) to which most Vikings that settled Britain seems to have belonged to. It's still predominant in coastal Norway.

[Mantuano]

Aren´t the Orkney Island and Shetland predominantly R1b-L21? Seems curious that an haplogroup that seems to be the most common among the picts are the most common in there. I might be wrong though.

[Graham]

Yeah I figured it's probably not that high autosomally, and also, if you add to that the recent migrations from other Scots who are partly Germanic themselves that number could go as high as 60% Germanic, which would be too unrealistic imo at least.

We really need more studies on Shetland, it's a very interesting region.

There is a bit in here you can read. If you Ctrl+F Shetland

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/suppl/2019/08/27/1904761116.DCSupplemental/pnas.1904761116.sapp.pdf

[JamesBond007]

Yorkshire could be a good candidate too.

I think genetics would show that it is Yorkshire but it is Angle-Norse as opposed to Angle-Saxon or Southern England including East Anglia is more Continental shifted .

[TheOldNorth]

East Anglia and Kent, Shetland might have a lot of Norse admixture but they are still very Scottish too

[Lannister]

I think genetics would show that it is Yorkshire but it is Angle-Norse as opposed to Angle-Saxon or Southern England including East Anglia is more Continental shifted .
Yorkshire is Angle-Danish viking actually, but my understanding is that it's really hard to distinguish Anglo-Saxon admixture from Danish viking admixture.

[JamesBond007]

Yorkshire is Angle-Danish viking actually, but my understanding is that it's really hard to distinguish Anglo-Saxon admixture from Danish viking admixture.

I think it is angle-danish-norse with an emphasis of Danish because it is so close to lowland Scotland , actually but I could be wrong. Maybe ,only those in northern yorkshire by the border or whatnot I dunno.

Anglo-Saxon is a bit of a misnomer while there is Saxon-Frisian admixture in Southern England there is also straight continental kraut and north-french blood so southern England is more continental :

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/03/19/26C86A2700000578-3000998-The_study_found_that_Britain_can_be_divided_into_1 7_distinct_gen-a-4_1426776373068.jpg




I'm not sure if England_IA is supposed to be French-like but I suppose so. I don't claim to be the average British person either but I illustrate the continental German admixture in the South) :

42.8 England_IA (French-like ?)
32.0 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian (Mostly teutonic viking)
25.2 SVK_Poprad_MA (Deutschendorf kraut straight continental German)

[Lannister]

I think it is angle-danish-norse with an emphasis of Danish because it is so close to lowland Scotland , actually but I could be wrong. Maybe ,only those in northern yorkshire by the border or whatnot I dunno.

Anglo-Saxon is a bit of a misnomer while there is Saxon-Frisian admixture in Southern England there is also straight continental kraut and north-french blood so southern England is more continental :

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/03/19/26C86A2700000578-3000998-The_study_found_that_Britain_can_be_divided_into_1 7_distinct_gen-a-4_1426776373068.jpg




I'm not sure if England_IA is supposed to be French-like but I suppose so. I don't claim to be the average British person either but I illustrate the continental German admixture in the South) :

42.8 England_IA (French-like ?)
32.0 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian (Mostly teutonic viking)
25.2 SVK_Poprad_MA (Deutschendorf kraut straight continental German)

The continental German admixture is Saxon right?

[XenophobicPrussian]

I think it is angle-danish-norse with an emphasis of Danish because it is so close to lowland Scotland , actually but I could be wrong. Maybe ,only those in northern yorkshire by the border or whatnot I dunno.

Anglo-Saxon is a bit of a misnomer while there is Saxon-Frisian admixture in Southern England there is also straight continental kraut and north-french blood so southern England is more continental :

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/03/19/26C86A2700000578-3000998-The_study_found_that_Britain_can_be_divided_into_1 7_distinct_gen-a-4_1426776373068.jpg




I'm not sure if England_IA is supposed to be French-like but I suppose so. I don't claim to be the average British person either but I illustrate the continental German admixture in the South) :

42.8 England_IA (French-like ?)
32.0 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian (Mostly teutonic viking)
25.2 SVK_Poprad_MA (Deutschendorf kraut straight continental German)
England_IA is not French-like, but more southern/French shifted than modern English because of their higher Celtic admixture.

Poprad_MA isn't a continental German, it's Scandinavian clustering like any other early Germanic sample. Also, that tabloid DNA paper is garbage. English aren't 25% German and 45% French.

[Jana]

England_IA is not French-like, but more southern/French shifted than modern English because of their higher Celtic admixture.

Poprad_MA isn't a continental German, Scandinavian clustering like any other early Germanic sample. Also, that tabloid DNA paper is garbage. English aren't 25% German and 45% French.

"French" in that study was actually based on Breton samples. So I guess decent proxy for Brittonic DNA. They should have clarified that.

[Oliver109]

I think it is angle-danish-norse with an emphasis of Danish because it is so close to lowland Scotland , actually but I could be wrong. Maybe ,only those in northern yorkshire by the border or whatnot I dunno.

Anglo-Saxon is a bit of a misnomer while there is Saxon-Frisian admixture in Southern England there is also straight continental kraut and north-french blood so southern England is more continental :

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/03/19/26C86A2700000578-3000998-The_study_found_that_Britain_can_be_divided_into_1 7_distinct_gen-a-4_1426776373068.jpg




I'm not sure if England_IA is supposed to be French-like but I suppose so. I don't claim to be the average British person either but I illustrate the continental German admixture in the South) :

42.8 England_IA (French-like ?)
32.0 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian (Mostly teutonic viking)
25.2 SVK_Poprad_MA (Deutschendorf kraut straight continental German)

I wonder if the DNA in W Yorkshire being different is anything to do with the heavier Brunn/Borreby presence there? i remember on some of Tooting Carmens threads from the area along with my own the amount of UP types seems more common in the central north, it is certainly distinct from Nottinghamshire which is much more Nordic and i will actually argue on here that Notts along with Lincolnshire may well be the most Germanic regions in England, the E Midlands seems to be very heavily Germanic compared to most other regions.

[J. Ketch]

I wonder if the DNA in W Yorkshire being different is anything to do with the heavier Brunn/Borreby presence there? i remember on some of Tooting Carmens threads from the area along with my own the amount of UP types seems more common in the central north, it is certainly distinct from Nottinghamshire which is much more Nordic and i will actually argue on here that Notts along with Lincolnshire may well be the most Germanic regions in England, the E Midlands seems to be very heavily Germanic compared to most other regions.
I think you're reading too much into it. In those studies W. Yorkshire/W.Central Eng actually seemed more Germanic shifted than the main English cluster, and in my personal view properly Germanic looking types tend to crop up more often in Yorkshire and thereabouts than elsewhere. But my observations, as much as anyone elses, are irrelevant compared to the hard data. West Yorkshire and surrounds is also one of the most Germanic shifted parts of England from the gedmatch kits I've collected too.
https://i.postimg.cc/tR1Dj1GR/POBI.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/8krkkcLG/zJGrwGn.png

Regional figures from the above image (continental likeness)
Cornwall

French - 57.4%
German - 19.3%
Scandinavian - 14.1%
Belgian - 6.7%
Spanish/South French - 2.5%

Devon

French - 48.5%
German - 22.8%
Scandinavian - 17.7%
Belgian - 8.4%
Spanish/South French - 2.6%

Central/South England

French - 42.6%
German - 26.6%
Scandinavian - 20.3%
Belgian - 9.5%
Spanish/South French - 1.2%

Welsh Borders

French - 43.8%
German - 27.9%
Scandinavian - 17.6%
Belgian - 8.5%
Spanish/South French - 2.2%

West Yorkshire

German - 33.1%
French - 30.2%
Scandinavian - 22.5%
Belgian - 11.6%
Spanish/South French - 2.1%

Northumbria

French - 41.3%
German - 24.7%
Scandinavian - 22.8%
Belgian - 9.1%
Spanish/South French - 2.2%

Cumbria

French - 39.2%
German - 24%
Scandinavian - 22.9%
Belgian - 11.3%
Spanish/South French - 2.6%

South Wales

French - 45.95%
German - 26.8%
Scandinavian - 13.7%
Belgian - 8.5%
Spanish/South French - 5.15%

North Wales

French - 41.5%
German - 32%
Scandinavian - 13%
Spanish/South French - 7.1%
Belgian - 6%

Northeast Scotland

French - 42.25%
Scandinavian - 23.15%
German - 20.05%
Belgian - 10.8%
Spanish/South French - 3.7%

Southwest Scotland

French - 39.8%
German - 23.7%
Scandinavian - 23.1%
Belgian - 9.4%
Spanish/South French - 4%

Northwest Scotland

French - 54.5%
Scandinavian - 24.3%
German - 12.8%
Belgian - 5.8%
Spanish/South French - 2.9%

Orkney

French - 39.29%
Scandinavian - 33.23%
German - 15.86%
Belgian - 8.73%
Spanish/South French - 2.9%

[Oliver109]

I think you're reading too much into it. In those studies W. Yorkshire/W.Central Eng actually seemed more Germanic shifted than the main English cluster, and in my personal view properly Germanic looking types tend to crop up more often in West Yorkshire and thereabouts than elsewhere. But my observations, as much as anyone elses, are irrelevant compared to the hard data. West Yorkshire and surrounds is also one of the most Germanic shifted parts of England from the gedmatch kits I've collected too.
https://i.postimg.cc/tR1Dj1GR/POBI.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/8krkkcLG/zJGrwGn.png

Regional figures from the above image (continental likeness)
Cornwall

French - 57.4%
German - 19.3%
Scandinavian - 14.1%
Belgian - 6.7%
Spanish/South French - 2.5%

Devon

French - 48.5%
German - 22.8%
Scandinavian - 17.7%
Belgian - 8.4%
Spanish/South French - 2.6%

Central/South England

French - 42.6%
German - 26.6%
Scandinavian - 20.3%
Belgian - 9.5%
Spanish/South French - 1.2%

Welsh Borders

French - 43.8%
German - 27.9%
Scandinavian - 17.6%
Belgian - 8.5%
Spanish/South French - 2.2%

West Yorkshire

German - 33.1%
French - 30.2%
Scandinavian - 22.5%
Belgian - 11.6%
Spanish/South French - 2.1%

Northumbria

French - 41.3%
German - 24.7%
Scandinavian - 22.8%
Belgian - 9.1%
Spanish/South French - 2.2%

Cumbria

French - 39.2%
German - 24%
Scandinavian - 22.9%
Belgian - 11.3%
Spanish/South French - 2.6%

South Wales

French - 45.95%
German - 26.8%
Scandinavian - 13.7%
Belgian - 8.5%
Spanish/South French - 5.15%

North Wales

French - 41.5%
German - 32%
Scandinavian - 13%
Spanish/South French - 7.1%
Belgian - 6%

Northeast Scotland

French - 42.25%
Scandinavian - 23.15%
German - 20.05%
Belgian - 10.8%
Spanish/South French - 3.7%

Southwest Scotland

French - 39.8%
German - 23.7%
Scandinavian - 23.1%
Belgian - 9.4%
Spanish/South French - 4%

Northwest Scotland

French - 54.5%
Scandinavian - 24.3%
German - 12.8%
Belgian - 5.8%
Spanish/South French - 2.9%

Orkney

French - 39.29%
Scandinavian - 33.23%
German - 15.86%
Belgian - 8.73%
Spanish/South French - 2.9%

It would not surprise me if Yorkshire was in general more Germanic, the CM types are certainly major in both countries but i think going by hair pigmentation especially the E Midlands seems more Nordic/Germanic, remember the farmer thread from Nottinghamshire, would you say that region has a big Germanic component compared to elsewhere?

[Oliver109]

All the regions except Orkney do not differ that drastically, Northumberland seems more or less close to S England yet the components as we saw in the recent farmers thread are a bit different.

[J. Ketch]

It would not surprise me if Yorkshire was in general more Germanic, the CM types are certainly major in both countries but i think going by hair pigmentation especially the E Midlands seems more Nordic/Germanic, remember the farmer thread from Nottinghamshire, would you say that region has a big Germanic component compared to elsewhere?
It has a large Germanic component, probably as much as anywhere else in Britain, but that was one example. I'm not really a fan of making definitive conclusions about different regions/countries based on a few group photos. People seem to keep ignoring the fact that most of England besides border areas forms one genetic cluster within Britain.

[Hialt]

I'm interested in this gray area of what delineates "germanicness" from something "non-germanic," genetically (or otherwise) speaking. I think all one can really say is blonde hair, blue eyes, and fair skin hue is the criteria for "germanicness," as nose shape, brow prominence, mouth face wrinkles varies across the board among blondes. That's why I use the word, "North Sea Peoples," as a more accurate way of who I am talking about. I tend to believe, in my understanding of these things, that the genetic make up of the Dutch, the Franks, the Anglo-Saxons, the Frisians, the "Jutes," the Normans is all basically the same. It is in my mind, at least. That is, they're the same people.

[Oliver109]

It has a large Germanic component, probably as much as anywhere else in Britain, but that was one example. I'm not really a fan of making definitive conclusions about different regions/countries based on a few group photos. People seem to keep ignoring the fact that most of England besides border areas forms one genetic cluster within Britain.

Well i think when you have a photo or selection of photos of roughly 80 people or more you can make more or less some sense about the general phenotypes in an area, that is the case with farmers especially(rugby teams are not in my book good to use as they tend to show more robust phenotypes) You are correct about the genetic cluster, does that mean that Brits from northern Scotland are closer to people from Essex than people there are to the Dutch?

[J. Ketch]

Well i think when you have a photo or selection of photos of roughly 80 people or more you can make more or less some sense about the general phenotypes in an area, that is the case with farmers especially(rugby teams are not in my book good to use as they tend to show more robust phenotypes) You are correct about the genetic cluster, does that mean that Brits from northern Scotland are closer to people from Essex than people there are to the Dutch?
I haven't seen any fine-scale studies on that tbh, most of them seem to be comparing British Isles populations to each other, but not against continentals.

Not thorough enough to draw conclusions but comparing English to British Isles, Dutch and some of Graham's early Scottish averages in K13:

Distance to: English
0.26115130 English_Midlands
0.84634508 English_Southwest
0.96441692 English_Southeast
1.14625477 English_North
1.24807852 Cornish
1.66346025 Welsh
1.91556780 South_East_Scotland
2.11957543 Lowland_Scotland
2.55695131 Dutch
2.84049291 Orcadian
2.88404230 Scottish
3.06643115 Dutch_Central
3.11709801 Irish_Leinster
3.12352365 Scots-Canadian
3.39501105 North_Highlands
4.19091875 Irish
4.35009195 Nah-EileananSiar
4.35086198 Dutch_North
4.38252210 Dutch_South
4.38548743 West_Scottish
4.57062359 Irish_Connacht
4.64175613 Irish_Munster
5.04566150 Irish_Ulster
5.91161568 West_Scotland

Distance to: English_Midlands
0.26115130 English
0.84988234 English_Southeast
0.86815897 English_Southwest
1.30495211 Cornish
1.33015037 English_North
1.80319161 Welsh
1.93038856 South_East_Scotland
2.29093867 Lowland_Scotland
2.62293728 Dutch
3.00416378 Orcadian
3.05766251 Scottish
3.17301119 Dutch_Central
3.27687351 Irish_Leinster
3.29290146 Scots-Canadian
3.57137229 North_Highlands
4.23217438 Dutch_South
4.35504305 Irish
4.46340677 Dutch_North
4.51192863 Nah-EileananSiar
4.57693129 West_Scottish
4.72878420 Irish_Connacht
4.80661003 Irish_Munster
5.21385654 Irish_Ulster
6.08954842 West_Scotland

Distance to: English_North
1.14625477 English
1.25952372 Welsh
1.33015037 English_Midlands
1.43279447 Lowland_Scotland
1.46731046 English_Southwest
1.78174072 Cornish
1.82107111 Orcadian
2.03548520 English_Southeast
2.05521288 South_East_Scotland
2.09351379 Scottish
2.28589151 Scots-Canadian
2.40545214 Irish_Leinster
2.42711763 Dutch
2.59225770 North_Highlands
2.66279928 Dutch_Central
3.30529878 Nah-EileananSiar
3.36096712 Irish
3.40317499 West_Scottish
3.62823649 Dutch_North
3.68585133 Irish_Connacht
3.78821858 Irish_Munster
4.23308398 Irish_Ulster
5.05312774 West_Scotland
5.40379496 Dutch_South

Distance to: English_Southeast
0.84988234 English_Midlands
0.96441692 English
1.52407349 English_Southwest
1.81311886 Cornish
1.86088689 South_East_Scotland
2.03548520 English_North
2.55749878 Welsh
2.58032944 Dutch
3.04090447 Lowland_Scotland
3.24772228 Dutch_Central
3.52292492 Dutch_South
3.66833750 Orcadian
3.71241162 Scottish
3.98449495 Irish_Leinster
4.03319972 Scots-Canadian
4.26759886 North_Highlands
4.70354122 Dutch_North
5.06510612 Irish
5.17132478 Nah-EileananSiar
5.30299915 West_Scottish
5.42839755 Irish_Connacht
5.53087696 Irish_Munster
5.92790013 Irish_Ulster
6.76533074 West_Scotland

Distance to: English_Southwest
0.75670338 Cornish
0.84634508 English
0.86815897 English_Midlands
1.43812378 Welsh
1.46731046 English_North
1.52407349 English_Southeast
1.97060904 Lowland_Scotland
2.65075461 South_East_Scotland
2.94469014 Scottish
2.96452357 Irish_Leinster
2.98641926 Orcadian
3.00690871 Scots-Canadian
3.28914883 Dutch
3.33043541 North_Highlands
3.75349171 Dutch_Central
4.06195766 Irish
4.28137828 West_Scottish
4.45634379 Nah-EileananSiar
4.49415176 Irish_Munster
4.49929995 Irish_Connacht
4.60102163 Dutch_South
4.83865684 Irish_Ulster
4.96822906 Dutch_North
5.83454368 West_Scotland

[Septentrion]

:mad:
Genetically speaking, is it East Anglia, Shetland or other?

The areas of England with the highest frequency of Y - DNA haplogroup R1b - U106, which would mean eastern and southern England.

[J. Ketch]

Well i think when you have a photo or selection of photos of roughly 80 people or more you can make more or less some sense about the general phenotypes in an area, that is the case with farmers especially(rugby teams are not in my book good to use as they tend to show more robust phenotypes) You are correct about the genetic cluster, does that mean that Brits from northern Scotland are closer to people from Essex than people there are to the Dutch?
Just found this chart randomly on my computer, not sure what study it was from.

https://i.postimg.cc/sxPrX7Jz/iron-age.jpg