What is the dispute over Alsace Lorraine?

[Albion]

Okay, excuse my ignorance but I don't know much about it.

I understand it was a disputed area between France and Germany and that Germany took it back and the France did for the last time after WWII.

Is the area ethnically French or German or a bit of both - a blurred division between French and German settlements?

I've also heard a theory before which suggests the area spoke Celtic right up until the 6th century (although I find this dubious).

Please enlighten me, what are the things I need to know?

[morski]

o8qSxX8Yfyw

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/52/Alsace_Dialects.PNG

[AntonyCapolongo]

Majority of the Alsatians and the Mosellans are Germanic : theirs originals languages are Germanics (Alsatian or Francique) ; 60% of the Alsatians can speak a Germanic language, and lot of them should may be also speak German.

Racially, they come from lot of differents peoples, essentially Gaulish and Franks, but also maybe with Roman influences. Jews and Gypsies have take place in Alsace since lot of century, Alsace is the French region where there's the most of Jews, and Alsatian language have a lot of Yiddish and Rromani words.

[Unurautare]

and Alsatian language have a lot of Yiddish and Rromani words.

Gypsy-Jews. Why the heck would Germans want it back?! :D

[AntonyCapolongo]

Gypsy-Jews. Why the heck would Germans want it back?! :D

I don't really think that they are mixed with Gypsies and Jewish, but they've take a lot of words of them.

Germany just wanted Alsace and Moselle, because they're part of Germanic world, German language, Germanic identity and German history. It's like South Tyrol for Austria, Istria for Italy, Roussillon for Catalonia, etc.

Now, I don't really think that there's a lot of people who want to see an Germanic Alsace. Majority of the Alsatians that i've seen in my life are anti-germanist, and I've never see German Nationalists who claim that Alsace is Germany.

But it's sure that Alsatians ARE Germans. Frenchies generally claim that they aren't, but they call them as "boches" (pejorative for "german").

[Ouistreham]

Alsatian language have a lot of Yiddish and Rromani words.

Bullshit.

Yiddisch is based on urban Middle-High-German tongues, and is therefore largely mutually intelligible with first of all the dialects of Frankfort and Worms, and to some extent with Alsatian, that's all.

German slangs were very much influenced by criminal jargons which indeed contain lots of words of Gypsy and Hebraic words (just like the French argots BTW), Alsatian is no exception.


But it's sure that Alsatians ARE Germans. Frenchies generally claim that they aren't, but they call them as "boches".

Superior horseshit!
We never do and never did.

[AntonyCapolongo]

Bullshit.

Yiddisch is based on urban Middle-High-German tongues, and is therefore largely mutually intelligible with first of all the dialects of Frankfort and Worms, and to some extent with Alsatian, that's all.

German slangs were very much influenced by criminal jargons which indeed contain lots of words of Gypsy and Hebraic words (just like the French argots BTW), Alsatian is no exception.

Superior horseshit!
We never do and never did.

Ah, je me sentais mal de pas te voir intervenir, hehe. Pas la peine de parler de la merde des taureaux et des chevaux.

Yiddish is a mix of Germanic dialect, Slavic languages and Hebrew.
A lot of Yiddish-speaker Jews live in Alsace, so, Alsatians have take some words/way of speaking of theses Jews.

Et à propos de la merde de cheval, ne joue pas le faux-culs. Jamais tu n'as entendu de Latinisants de France dire que les Alsaciens sont des boches? Une femme dans ma famille s'est mariée à un Mosellan/Alsacien, et tout le monde à toujours dit que c'était un boche, surtout en periode de guerre. Et moi j'ai toujours entendu les Alsaciens se faire traiter de boches, presque partout et par tout le monde.

[Wolf]

Is the area ethnically French or German or a bit of both - a blurred division between French and German settlements?

Take a look at the place names.



Please enlighten me, what are the things I need to know?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Dialectes_Alsace.PNG

[Albion]

Take a look at the place names.




http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/Dialectes_Alsace.PNG

Why did France think it had a claim to it then? Was it just French expansionism, or did they want control of part of the Rhine?

[Geminus]

Why did France think it had a claim to it then? Was it just French expansionism, or did they want control of part of the Rhine?

Both of it. France always wanted the Rhine as their Eastern border. It could be clearly seen under Napoleon, where all areas in the west of the Rhine were annexed by France.

[Wolf]

Why did France think it had a claim to it then?

Because they could. During the 17th century the Holy Roman Empire was in a bad condition because of the Thirty Years' War. Therefore, France took the chance, simple as that.



Both of it. France always wanted the Rhine as their Eastern border. It could be clearly seen under Napoleon, where all areas in the west of the Rhine were annexed by France.

That's true, the Rhine is a good border in all respects. It's good defendable and you obtain access to a large waterway.

[Wolf]

Where's the French "réplique"?

[morski]

Here:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxXK5ULxmPM

[Wolf]

Here:

Something more reasoned please.

[morski]

Something more reasoned please.

The fact that a French president subconsciously regards Alsace as German and blunders it out in public is selfevident.

[WOOHP]

Bump

Rudel needs to step in here

[Also]

I don't have much knowledge about the region and its history, but I was in Strasbourg, the people look german and the city looks like a german city.

[ficuscarica]

The French stole it. But the Alsatians (Allemannic and Frankish Germanics) identified with France after WWII. It´s easier not to be on the bad guys´ side, but on the good guys´ side. Alsatian opportunism combined with France expansionism has turned these Germans into wannabe French.

[Mehmet]

The people of Alsace and Lorraine are ethnic Germans who have been Frenchized, Latinized since the end of WW2.
French assimilationnism is actually very violent.

Germans are enduring what Danish Vikings (Normadian) or Brittons have endured.

[Rudel]

I've also heard a theory before which suggests the area spoke Celtic right up until the 6th century (although I find this dubious).
It spoke at least Latin for sure, it was in the Empire.


Majority of the Alsatians and the Mosellans are Germanic : theirs originals languages are Germanics (Alsatian or Francique)
Last time Germany annexed Moselle, half of it was Germanic linguistically.


60% of the Alsatians can speak a Germanic language
Not really.


But it's sure that Alsatians ARE Germans. Frenchies generally claim that they aren't, but they call them as "boches" (pejorative for "german").
Alsatians aren't Germans, like Austrians, Swiss or Dutch aren't Germans. I've never heard anyone calling the Alsatians "boches", and I'd break the nose of anybody that'd do such a thing.


Et à propos de la merde de cheval, ne joue pas le faux-culs. Jamais tu n'as entendu de Latinisants de France dire que les Alsaciens sont des boches? Une femme dans ma famille s'est mariée à un Mosellan/Alsacien, et tout le monde à toujours dit que c'était un boche, surtout en periode de guerre. Et moi j'ai toujours entendu les Alsaciens se faire traiter de boches, presque partout et par tout le monde.
Je suis lorrain, et chez moi quelqu'un qui aurait traité un alsacien de boche se serait fait trouer la gueule.


The fact that a French president subconsciously regards Alsace as German and blunders it out in public is selfevident.
Sarkozy was the president of France, but he wasn't that much French really.


Germans are enduring what Danish Vikings (Normadian) or Brittons have endured.
The IXth century and the modern era are totally the same thing.


The French stole it. But the Alsatians (Allemannic and Frankish Germanics) identified with France after WWII. It´s easier not to be on the bad guys´ side, but on the good guys´ side. Alsatian opportunism combined with France expansionism has turned these Germans into wannabe French.
The fact that the German army enrolled by force all the able-bodied Alsatians to fight on the Eastern front might have slightly affected their view of Germany (which wasn't shinny to begin with).

Anyway we've just reclaimed Gallo-Roman land. If Germans aren't OK with it, well fuck them. Who cares about what Germany thinks ?


http://youtu.be/2glneAu-okg

[ficuscarica]

Anyway we've just reclaimed Gallo-Roman land. If Germans aren't OK with it, well fuck them. Who cares about what Germany thinks ?

These people are Germanic, even my region was Gallo-Roman before the 3rd century CE. So what? The cities, culture, people, etc have been Germanic forever.

And to your question: You should care. Without the whole Anglosphere + Russia ganging up on Germany you would be a German colony or protectorate.

Anyway, I am just having a "troll the French" day. I don´t even know why LOL. Actually I don´t have a problem with France.

[Rudel]

And to your question: You should care. Without the whole Anglosphere + Russia ganging up on Germany you would be a German colony or protectorate.
Without Britain, Russia, Prussia, Austria, the Netherlands, Sardinia and whatnot ganging up on us, you'd live in a French département.


Actually I don´t have a problem with France.
Then don't act like you have one.

[ficuscarica]

Without Britain, Russia, Prussia, Austria, the Netherlands, Sardinia and whatnot ganging up on us, you'd live in a French département.


You didn´t fight Germany but small independent states back then. You know the history after Germans united... 1871, WW I and II, each time France was defeated or saved from defeat by US/UK/Russia.

[Rudel]

You didn´t fight Germany but small independent states back then. You know the history after Germans united... 1871, WW I and II, each time France was defeated or saved from defeat by US/UK/Russia.
WWI ? What the fuck ? France did the lion's share, and by far, in this war.

[Not a Cop]

Without Britain, Russia, Prussia, Austria, the Netherlands, Sardinia and whatnot ganging up on us, you'd live in a French département.


Tried once, did'nt happened

[Wolf]

I don't have much knowledge about the region and its history, but I was in Strasbourg, the people look german and the city looks like a german city.

The city does also have a German name. "Strasbourg" = "Straßburg" (street + castle/town)



But the Alsatians (Allemannic and Frankish Germanics) identified with France after WWII. It´s easier not to be on the bad guys´ side, but on the good guys´ side. Alsatian opportunism combined with France expansionism has turned these Germans into wannabe French.

Alsatians didn't have any choice.



Alsatians aren't Germans, like Austrians, Swiss or Dutch aren't Germans.

That's debatable.



Anyway we've just reclaimed Gallo-Roman land.

According to your logic, Northern Italy should be French, too.

[Rudel]

According to your logic, Northern Italy should be French, too.
It would have made sense at the time of the Risorgimento. It doesn't anymore.

[DeaththeKid]

Personally I think that Germany was right to annex Alsace but they got greedy and annexed too much of Lorraine because it was strategic. They should have left Metz to France since it was French speaking. That would have granted the annexation more moral legitimacy.

[Skomand]

http://hostarea.de/out.php/i321915_kaiserreich.jpg (http://hostarea.de/show.php/321915_kaiserreich.jpg.html)

The German Empire was a federal state made up of 4 kingdoms, 6 grand-duchies, 5 duchies, 7 principalities, free cities etc.
Unfortunately, Elsaß-Lothringen was not granted the same autonomy status. It became Reichsland with the Kaiser as the ruling monarch and administered by Prussian civil servants. Possessing a south-German mentality this arrangement did not make them happy. Winning them back might have been possible, but not under these circumstances.
(Alsatians had to step down from the sidewalk when they met a Prussian military).

[Skomand]

I have done a google search with "Vive l'Alsace libre" and it brought up this:
http://blogs.mediapart.fr/blog/bernard-ernewein/241013/vive-l-alsace-libre-0
So some autonomists are still there. But when you look for more texts you will find that they are mostly written in French, interspersed with some quotes from their dialects. And this could be the major problem: their mother tongue is a dialect and Standard High German does not come easy to them and sounds clumsy from their mouths.

Here is some more:

http://alternative-europe.blogspot.com/2008/05/ferdinand-moschenross-esch-tod.html

The biggest newspaper "Les dernieres nouvelles d'Alsace" started out as a German language paper, then was published in two languages. The German edition was given up in 2012. (German texts are still online: http://www.dna.fr/actualite/auf-deutsch)

Wikipedia:

"The newspaper was until March 2012 also published in German, although the Alsatian dialect is not a written language for the Alsatians German (about 10% prints)."

[madridi4verrr]

heeu !? Are you kidding ?
Having lived in this region for 2 years , I can tell you that Alsace is one of the most nationalistic regions in France , and the old people here have very strong anti-german sentiment ( Because of the past apparently ) .
But I agree that the some parts of the two regions ( especially alsace ) seems german , 90% of the city names sounds german and the architecture is strongely german influenced ( even the panels are writen in french and german ) , but culturally the people living here are more french than german that's for sure ( when you cross the borders it's a totally diffrent mindset and people ... )

[Skomand]

http://mondediplo.com/1998/05/07bihr
BREEDING GROUND OF THE FAR RIGHT
Alsace, exception to the rule

[Skomand]

" ...The few years of National Socialist rule achieved, what France had never achieved from 1919 to 1940: The Alsatians turned now unconditionally to France, and German culture and language in Alsace were permanently on the defensive...."

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malgr%C3%A9-nous

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malgr%C3%A9-nous

[CordedWhelp]

My uncle's paternal side traces back to the Alsace a good few generations, but says his ancestors considered themselves Frenchman even before the area was annexed by france. Strange.

[Visitor_22]

It's one of those lands that Germany lost after WW1.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/German_losses_after_WWI.svg?uselang=ru

[Skomand]

Strasbourg became French in 1681 for the first time.
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/military/17cen/strassburg1681.html
When it became German again in 1871, enough time had elapsed for them to assimilate to France.
Although in the core I think mentalitywise they are close to their Alemannic neighbours.

[Ouistreham]

My uncle's paternal side traces back to the Alsace a good few generations, but says his ancestors considered themselves Frenchman even before the area was annexed by france. Strange.

Somewhat weird, I know, but that's the way it is.


Although in the core I think mentalitywise they are close to their Alemannic neighbours.

Exactly! They glorify their Frenchness mit schwäbischen Gründlichkeit but don't tell them that way, it would make them angry. Very weird...

[Skomand]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uGzNl57RcU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uGzNl57RcU

Arsene Wenger, the Arsenal coach, is from Alsace. In this interview he speaks High German.


Tomi Ungerer, the most popular Alsatian alive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryNgfk49cjk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryNgfk49cjk