‘France will secede from NATO’

[European blood]

Marine Le Pen discusses her political agenda with Kommersant

The 2012 presidential election campaign has begun in France. The leader of the far-right National Front party, Marine Le Pen, who is ahead of Sarkozy in opinion polls, is getting ready for her first official visit to Russia. Marine Le Pen spoke about why France needs to secede from NATO, how Europe should deal with the influx of immigrants, and what attracts her about Vladimir Putin, with Kommersant’s correspondent, Elena Chernenko.

Elena Chernenko: The closer we get to the presidential election, the higher your ratings become. How do you explain this?

Marine Le Pen: We have reached a certain turning point. We are witnessing the decay of the Anglo-Saxon model, which has been imposed on us and which is based on principles of ultra-liberalism and rejection of national sovereignty. The French people are beginning to see the destructive nature of the policy of open borders and mass influx of immigrants, a laissez-faire attitude to security, a refusal to adopt protectionist economic measures and an unpatriotic attitude toward domestic producers. This policy has led to disastrous results, but neither the Union for a Popular Movement (Nikolas Sarkozy’s party), nor the Socialists are able to change anything, as they are simply unable to offer the country an alternative path.

EL: And that is something you can do?

MLP: Yes, as we are the only truly patriotic party. We believe that success and prosperity in France can only be achieved by the strengthening of security, the preservation of the national identity, and patriotism. The National Front is the only party that holds to the policy principles of General de Gaulle. Like him, we support an independent, strong, and influential France, a France that bases its policies on its strategic interests, rather than the desires of other countries, such as the United States.

EL: What will happen if Nikolas Sarkozy stays for a second term?

MLP: I do not think that’s possible. The world is standing on the brink of some serious financial shocks, which will have a particularly strong effect in the Eurozone. Many economists are doubtful that the euro will hold its ground and are predicting a crisis in Europe. I do not believe that Sarkozy will be able to go on leading the country under such conditions. The only thing that will be able to pull France out of the crisis is a return to fiscal sovereignty and our national currency. And that is precisely what we support. At the same time, I strongly believe that this crisis opens some great opportunities for France, as paradoxical as it may sound. And not only for France, but for the whole of Europe – the Europe of free and sovereign nations, which we want to create. The crisis could give rise to changes in the domestic and foreign policy of France, which has long needed to stop conforming to the US and turn towards Russia. I have long been saying that we need to develop relations with Moscow and not Washington, because we share many common interests both in cultural and strategic terms.

EL: More than with the Unites States?

MLP: Of course! American culture is far removed from French and European culture – that is a fact of history. Therefore, I cannot but worry when I see and feel how our president is turning his back on Russia, as desired by the United States. And he is not alone. At a nod from the US, Russia is demonized in the French media. It’s not easy for politicians, who support building a closer relationship with Russia, and one needs to have a lot of courage to abandon this position, which has already become politically incorrect.

EL: That is something that is rarely heard from a European politician.

MLP: Well, I may be the only one in France who stands up for Russia, but I’m not the only one in Europe. At the same time, I believe that Russia is not actively developing relations with European politicians and players who, like myself, sympathize with Moscow and are ready to promote this position. The US, in this sense, is a lot more active – and that’s the problem.

EL: If you become president, will France secede from NATO?

MLP: Yes, I have opposed France’s involvement with the Alliance since the very beginning. In this sense, I fully agree with the opinion of General de Gaulle, who was against the idea of subjecting France’s national interests to any other foreign power – including the United States. Meanwhile, I am confident that the European states must co-operate in the field of security, but I do not see a reason why Russia cannot be a part of this process. European countries should work with Russia to develop a plan to build the Europe of the future.

EL: How do you envision the future Libya, where regime change has taken place under active involvement of French forces?

MLP: I doubt that the new leadership will be able to create democracy. I was against the Libya invasion, and against involvement in the situation in Syria and Cote d’Ivoire. I believe in diplomacy, especially on a regional level. The problems of Libya, Egypt, and Tunisia need to be handled by their Arab or African neighbors. In any event, that is better than an intervention by Western states. I do not believe that NATO and the EU countries have done something heroic in Libya. Forces were absolutely unequal, so the Alliance does not have much to be proud of. At the same time, I understand that the US is pursuing its interests by promoting all of these pseudo-democratic revolutions across the globe, but I do not understand why Europe complies and why Russia is not protecting its interests on the same level as the United States.

EL: Usually, actions of this type on the part of Russia are perceived with a great deal of caution in the West, including the European Union.

MLP: Yes, that is true, because the process of demonization of Russia is taking place at the level of the EU leadership and at the wishes of the US, which is trying to create a unipolar world. I believe in a multipolar world. As for the situation in North Africa and the Middle East, it is hard to say now how it will end. I do not exclude the possibility that the secular dictators may be replaced by a Sharia dictatorship. But in the West, Eastern dictators are separated into the good and bad. The good are, for example, Saudi Arabia and Qatar, and the bad – all those who do not pander to us or do not give us their oil. All of the deposed regimes were secular dictatorships – Egypt, Tunisia, Libya. And now, radical Islamists are fighting for power in all of these countries. And they do not need or want democracy or freedom. It is extremely dangerous for Europe to have such neighbors.

EL: What are the possible implications of this?

MLP: An increase in the flow of immigrants to Europe won’t be the only consequence. I’m afraid that we will have to pay a very high price for Sarkozy’s adventure. Though it was not so much his initiative – he, to my great regret, was guided by the US. It’s no big deal for the US, but we have already received 25,000 immigrants from Tunisia and Libya. Meanwhile, we have almost 5 million unemployed, an enormous foreign debt and a budget deficit. The social system is barely able to withstand the current load, though we continue to annually accept 200,000 new immigrants, and that is not counting illegals. France has long been unable to cope with this influx either financially, or in terms of our national identity, which has already begun to change as a result of mass immigration.

A very accurate forecast, in this regard, was given by Vladimir Putin, who said that France could become a colony of its former colonies. And that is precisely what I am fighting against. It’s not out of hatred or xenophobia, but out of love for my country. I want France to remain France. In the last 30 years, we have already accepted 10 million people – it’s time to stop this invasion.

EL: What do you suggest?

MLP: First, we need to reduce legal immigration to the very minimum. Then we need to make sure that France stops being an attractive country for immigrants. Today, you come to France, and even as an illegal you are immediately granted practically the same rights as the French. You are given benefits, social housing, free education and healthcare. I am confident that if we do not offer anything to immigrants, they will stop coming. We need to worry first about our own people. And yet, as soon as someone starts to criticize the leadership’s immigration policy, they are immediately called a racist. I believe that we cannot forget about the country’s national interests in favor of political correctness. I am confident that the majority of the French people think the same.

EL: All that is left is for them to vote for you in the election. In Russia, things are much simpler. The name of the future president has already been basically determined. The authorities call this stability; the opposition, a sign of lack of democracy. Be that as it may, if you become president, you will most likely be dealing with Vladimir Putin. What is your opinion of him?

MLP: We also do not have an ideal democracy in France and, therefore, do not have the right to give Russia lessons in democracy. But I openly admit that, to some extent, I admire Vladimir Putin. He makes mistakes, but who doesn’t? The situation in Russia is complicated, and one cannot expect all the problems stemming from the collapse of the Soviet Union to be quickly resolved – they require time. I think that Vladimir Putin has principles and a vision of the future that is necessary to ensure Russia’s prosperity, which it deserves. And more active co-operation with France and the European states could expedite this process.


http://rt.com/politics/press/kommersant/france-nato-secede/en/

[Saturni]

It seems odd that Russia, a nation with one foot in the East and West, seems to be taking point, or at least portraying itself as taking point, on the Occidental preservation issue.

Whether this is a simply a shrewd tactic on Putin's part to destabilize NATO or whether it's a genuine attempt to preserve Occidental culture remains to be seen. But, at the very least, it is entertaining.

[Joe McCarthy]

Pretty predictable stuff. She'll get nowhere fast with this.

[Saturni]

Pretty predictable stuff. She'll get nowhere fast with this.

That will depend, I think, on what Germany does. Should the Greeks and Italians default the EU could, conceivably, dissolve in favor of something like German/Russian based economic bloc.

[Loki]

It seems odd that Russia, a nation with one foot in the East and West, seems to be taking point, or at least portraying itself as taking point, on the Occidental preservation issue.

Whether this is a simply a shrewd tactic on Putin's part to destabilize NATO or whether it's a genuine attempt to preserve Occidental culture remains to be seen. But, at the very least, it is entertaining.

I don't think it is odd at all. I have read many of Putin's speeches myself and his firm desire is for European co-operation, above all. The only reason he is also one foot into Asia is for self-preservation against an aggressive NATO. And also ... why not friendship with China? Why always looking for stand-offishness and war/trouble?

[Albion]

Ah, Marine Le Pen - I do hope she wins the election, I doubt it though. France could do with a strong leader.

http://www.francethisway.com/history/liberty.jpg
Marianne le pen!

[Saturni]

I don't think it is odd at all. I have read many of Putin's speeches myself and his firm desire is for European co-operation, above all. The only reason he is also one foot into Asia is for self-preservation against an aggressive NATO. And also ... why not friendship with China? Why always looking for stand-offishness and war/trouble?

Whether Putin actually believes in Occidental cultural preservation is irrelevant, I suppose, so long as his policies benefit the long term goals of said preservationists.

I quite understand this obsession some people have with China. The idea that China is some brooding military threat just seems silly to me. China needs the West as consumers for its extensive industries. Why it would want to go to war with the West and destroy their economy in the process, strains common sense.

[Joe McCarthy]

That will depend, I think, on what Germany does. Should the Greeks and Italians default the EU could, conceivably, dissolve in favor of something like German/Russian based economic bloc.

By her own admission she's a lone voice on this in France, which is remarkable really given that anti-Americanism (albeit a mild form) is a normal part of French politics.

[The Lawspeaker]

If France goes we should all go. And I believe that there would be mounting pressure on the treasonous Rutte Government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutte_cabinet) to follow suit when the French go.

[Saturni]

Ah, Marine Le Pen - I do hope she wins the election, I doubt it though. France could do with a strong leader.

http://www.francethisway.com/history/liberty.jpg
Marianne le pen!

I doubt her boobies look that good. :D

[Joe McCarthy]

Whether Putin actually believes in Occidental cultural preservation is irrelevant, I suppose, so long as his policies benefit the long term goals of said preservationists.

I quite understand this obsession some people have with China. The idea that China is some brooding military threat just seems silly to me. China needs the West as consumers for its extensive industries. Why it would want to go to war with the West and destroy their economy in the process, strains common sense.

If the aim is peace why is China engaged in a military buildup (with Russian assistance) and threatening military action in the South China Sea?

[SaxonCeorl]

We are witnessing the decay of the Anglo-Saxon model, which has been imposed on us and which is based on principles of ultra-liberalism and rejection of national sovereignty.

She blames the Anglo-Saxon world for France's ultra-liberalism and rejection of national sovereignty? ...............:pound:

I'm rooting for her, though.

[Saturni]

The purpose of NATO ceased when the Soviet Union fell.

NATO exists now as a kind of Cold War dinosaur. Aside from keeping Croats and Serbs from killing each other, it serves no other purpose other than being a huge financial and logistical drain on the participating countries.

[Saturni]

She blames the Anglo-Saxon world for France's ultra-liberalism and rejection of national sovereignty? ...............:pound:

I'm rooting for her, though.

I know! It's like she has forgotten the principles on which the French Revolution were based.

[Aces High]

why is China engaged in a military buildup

The Chinese defence budget is something like 1.5% of its gdp,half of the United States....hardly a build up.

[Joe McCarthy]

The purpose of NATO ceased when the Soviet Union fell.

NATO exists now as a kind of Cold War dinosaur. Aside from keeping Croats and Serbs from killing each other, it serves no other purpose other than being a huge financial and logistical drain on the participating countries.

So then the answer is for France to lead Europe out of NATO and into a strategic arrangement with Russia? Gee, I wonder who that might be targeted against?

[BeerBaron]

If the aim is peace why is China engaged in a military buildup (with Russian assistance) and threatening military action in the South China Sea?

I am the first one to raise the anti china flag, but a lot of their build up is going to internal security. If push came to shove Japan is totally capable of keeping the south china sea chinese free.

[The Lawspeaker]

I am the first one to raise the anti china flag, but a lot of their build up is going to internal security. If push came to shove Japan is totally capable of keeping the south china sea chinese free.
With what army ? With the Self Comforting Forces of a Japan that was almost completely disarmed by the United States and that is actually not allowed by it's constitution (enforced by the Americans) to operate outside it's own area ?

Unless it is a humanitarian mission and strictly speaking not even then (thus the Japanese intermezzo in Iraq was illegal).

[Joe McCarthy]

The Chinese defence budget is something like 1.5% of its gdp,half of the United States....hardly a build up.

http://thelastcolumnist.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/ChineseAircraftCarrierInTow2.jpg

[Edgard]

I know! It's like she has forgotten the principles on which the French Revolution were based.

The French would blame the Anglo Saxon if their own flag fell on their heads. The liberal rubbish we all struggle with started from them after all. The idea of fraternity among all men has and will never work.

[Aces High]

http://thelastcolumnist.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/ChineseAircraftCarrierInTow2.jpg

One shagged out coal powered aircraft carrier...so what.

[Joe McCarthy]

One shagged out coal powered aircraft carrier...so what.

More than that:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/25/world/25military.html

[Saturni]

One shagged out coal powered aircraft carrier...so what.

LMFAO!

You know there's over 10,000 Chinamen down in the bowels of that ship all pedaling in tandem to make that thing move.

[Saturni]

So then the answer is for France to lead Europe out of NATO and into a strategic arrangement with Russia? Gee, I wonder who that might be targeted against?

The Finns, who else?

[Edgard]

LMFAO!

You knows there's over 10,000 Chinamen down in the bowels of that ship all pedaling in tandem to make that thing move.

This has been their strategy for the best part of 1000 years lol

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7f/Radpaddelsch.jpg

[Saturni]

I am the first one to raise the anti china flag, but a lot of their build up is going to internal security. If push came to shove Japan is totally capable of keeping the south china sea chinese free.

They beat the Russians at sea before, so I'm sure they can keep Mao's minions at bay.

[Joe McCarthy]

They beat the Russians at sea before, so I'm sure they can keep Mao's minions at bay.

Japan would need a navy first. They have no capacity to project power in the Asia-Pacific region. This isn't 1942.

[Aces High]

More than that:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/25/world/25military.html

sea trials with a refitted Soviet-era carrier from Ukraine.......:rotfl:


A bathtub class floating radioactive rust bucket,no doubt painted duck egg blue and as about effective in modern warfare as a Dreadnought.

I bet they threw in a million gas masks and some old USSR felt boots to seal the deal.

[Hess]

I'm pretty young, and I pray daily that I will see the abolition of the EU and the Euro in my lifetime and the formation of a true European union :)

[Saturni]

sea trials with a refitted Soviet-era carrier from Ukraine.......:rotfl:


A bathtub class floating radioactive rust bucket,no doubt painted duck egg blue and as about effective in modern warfare as a Dreadnought.

I bet they threw in a million gas masks and some old USSR felt boots to seal the deal.

And Putin laughing all the way to the bank.

[Joe McCarthy]

sea trials with a refitted Soviet-era carrier from Ukraine.......:rotfl:


A bathtub class floating radioactive rust bucket,no doubt painted duck egg blue and as about effective in modern warfare as a Dreadnought.

I bet they threw in a million gas masks and some old USSR felt boots to seal the deal.

Did you even read the link?

[Saturni]

Japan would need a navy first. They have no capacity to project power in the Asia-Pacific region. This isn't 1942.

No capacity?!? They're already protecting the Earth from space!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7bD0Ks-i4lQ/TmRGF0fMIKI/AAAAAAAAC98/ctmeTIPGBSw/s1600/yamatobig.jpg

[Aces High]

Did you even read the link?

Yes lobbyists scaremongering in the senate to squeeze more money out of the already strained US coffers because China is on the verge of a war against western civilisation.

:coffee:

China is building up its army...as is Russia and just about every country on earth,its big business....so what.

[Joe McCarthy]

Yes lobbyists scaremongering in the senate to squeeze more money out of the already strained US coffers because China is on the verge of a war against western civilisation.


No, not lobbyists. Read it again.

[Joe McCarthy]

Na capacity?!? They're already protecting the Earth from space!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-7bD0Ks-i4lQ/TmRGF0fMIKI/AAAAAAAAC98/ctmeTIPGBSw/s1600/yamatobig.jpg

Great looking navy there, yes.

[Aces High]

No, not lobbyists. Read it again.

defense officials......warned Wednesday as the Pentagon released an annual report cataloging China’s cruise missiles, fighter jets and growing, modernizing army.

Defence officials lobbying for more money...more power....more arms....more ships......more...more...more money....more money.......

[Incal]

EL: More than with the Unites States?

MLP: Of course! American culture is far removed from French and European culture – that is a fact of history.


:sad::sad::sad::sad::sad:

[Loki]

I quite understand this obsession some people have with China. The idea that China is some brooding military threat just seems silly to me. China needs the West as consumers for its extensive industries. Why it would want to go to war with the West and destroy their economy in the process, strains common sense.

Well, even economically cooperation with China is mutually beneficial. You disagree?

[Joe McCarthy]

defense officials......warned Wednesday as the Pentagon released an annual report cataloging China’s cruise missiles, fighter jets and growing, modernizing army.

Defence officials lobbying for more money...more power....more arms....more ships......more...more...more money....more money.......

Yes, it's all lies. The Chinese are eminently trustworthy and are being picked on by the J00z!

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes, it's all lies. The Chinese are eminently trustworthy and are being picked on by the J00z!
Probably about us trustworthy as the Americans. But the problem with the Americans is that we only have the Atlantic separating us. The chinks are less of an issue.

[Saturni]

defense officials......warned Wednesday as the Pentagon released an annual report cataloging China’s cruise missiles, fighter jets and growing, modernizing army.

Defence officials lobbying for more money...more power....more arms....more ships......more...more...more money....more money.......

The global threat paradigm has changed. The enemies are no longer totalitarian superpowers, but raghead goatf*ckers wearing explosive vests. So the need for billion dollar weapon systems is no longer there. I mean how can you justify a new fleet of carriers when the biggest threat to world peace are a handful of smelly suicidal Arabs?

[Joe McCarthy]

:sad::sad::sad::sad::sad:

Le Pen is a moron. Historically the US has much more in common with France than Russia does. We had revolutions based on more or less similar ideals, and while US marched into Paris to liberate it, Russia marched in to conquer it.

[Saturni]

Well, even economically cooperation with China is mutually beneficial. You disagree?

Considering the PC I'm using right now was made in China, how could I? :D

[The Lawspeaker]

The global threat paradigm has changed. The enemies are no longer totalitarian superpowers, but raghead goatf*ckers wearing explosive vests. So the need for billion dollar weapon systems is no longer there. I mean how can you justify a new fleet of carriers when the biggest threat to world peace are a handful of smelly suicidal Arabs?
There i$ no bu$ine$$ like U$ Army bu$ine$$ (and of course $hoah bu$ine$$ --- making money out of an absolute tragedy).
http://dailybail.com/storage/chart-military-global-spending.png?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1303481268 706

Yap. China must be a major threat to world peace. Spending a whole 7.3 percent of their annual budget on weapons. Wow !:rolleyes:

[Saturni]

The US military industrial complex employs a great many people in the civilian field, so I can understand why they want to keep building expensive new weapon systems, but the simple fact remains that the raison d'etre for those systems is no longer there.

If the US wants to get its economy back, it's going to have to bite the proverbial bullet and simply tell the military there's simply not enough money for new toys this year.

[Joe McCarthy]

Yap. China must be a major threat to world peace. Spending a whole 7.3 percent of their annual budget on weapons. Wow !:rolleyes:[/FONT]

China's defense budget is now estimated to be about 160 billion. The US is about 500 billion if one doesn't count Iraq and Afghanistan. That is approaching Cold War era breakdowns between the US and USSR.

[The Lawspeaker]

China's defense budget is now estimated to be about 160 billion. The US is about 500 billion if one doesn't count Iraq and Afghanistan. That is approaching Cold War era breakdowns between the US and USSR.
While a lot of the Chinese army is junk and what you are doing is scare-mongering.

What the US should do is simple - here are some ideas:

Diminish the budget by about a third (it would force the army to become efficient and creative and sack those that just a drain on the budget) and send those that are overseas in f.i the Middle East, Africa, Australia, Latin America and Europe home. Keep the ones that are posted in Asia (apart from Japan -- send them to South Korea or Taiwan) but spread them and here is where the trick comes in:

Send the forces in the U.S to the Arctic (to Canada and Alaska) and to the Mexican border. And when it comes to Asia: spend a lot of money in turning the Phillippines, Malaysia, Indonesia and Thailand into democratic countries and modern economies. Each one of those countries should rival Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore and Japan and while this is happening China's appeal and influence will weaken.

Also assist in the build-up of their forces, teach them American tactics but also learn from them. Give them the latest of the latest and in that way you can start surrounding China.

[BeerBaron]

With what army ? With the Self Comforting Forces of a Japan that was almost completely disarmed by the United States and that is actually not allowed by it's constitution (enforced by the Americans) to operate outside it's own area ?

Unless it is a humanitarian mission and strictly speaking not even then (thus the Japanese intermezzo in Iraq was illegal).


You dont know what you are talking about, again.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=Japan

Japan fields the 2nd largest Pacific fleet, behind the US.

[The Lawspeaker]

You dont know what you are talking about, again.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=Japan

Japan fields the 2nd largest Pacific fleet, behind the US.
That's because the rest doesn't have much of a navy.. let alone armed forces.

In the land of the blind...

[Saturni]

China's defense budget is now estimated to be about 160 billion. The US is about 500 billion if one doesn't count Iraq and Afghanistan. That is approaching Cold War era breakdowns between the US and USSR.

China can buy all the surplus Soviet crap it wants. The fact remains that the Chinese economy is tied to that of the US', plus the US is China's biggest debtor. So unless the Chinks are getting ready to commit economic suicide, I think we here in the US can sleep pretty easy knowing the Chinks aren't going to be sailing the People's Fleet to Pearl Harbor any time soon.

[Sebastianus Rex]

Marine Le Pen may be ahead in the polls but she will not win the elections, she might go on 1st place in the 1st turn but on the 2nd turn Sarkozy will win because of the support of all the other political forces. In the best case scenario (for her), she might be invited for head-of-government under the presidency of Sarkozy.

I don't understand all the admiration for Putin by certain "nationalists", the european part of Russia is being invaded by kavkazes and other turquic-mongol muslims under the patronage of Putin. Since he rose to power the immigration laws became much softer and the islamic population in "white Russia" has skyrocketed. Moscow has around 2-2.5 million muslims, wich is already the biggest of any European city. In 1991, after the collapse of the Soviet Union there were very few muslims in Moscow.

Another thing i don't understand is the support of Iran by the same "nationalists", if they think that Iran as nuclear power won't be a possible threat for Europe they're complete imbecils. Iran is a very unstable country with tendencies to Fundamentalism, why allow them to adquire nuclear weapons that can be used against us in the future ?!

About France getting out of Nato that's an absolute nonsence, it's science fiction. It's dog barking.

[BeerBaron]

More than that:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/25/world/25military.html

This carrier is more symbolic than it is a real threat, the Japanese and South Koreans can take this tub out, and yes Japan does have a fleet (i posted a link) as does SK, both are backed by the US pacific fleet.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=South-Korea

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=Japan

[Joe McCarthy]

Originally Posted by Civis Batavi
Each one of those countries should rival Taiwan, South Korea, Singapore and Japan and while this is happening China's appeal and influence will weaken.


China's appeal has already weakened because they are aggressive, belligerent Communists. Their good rapport of a few years ago in providing bailout money for Asian economies has dried up. Their neighbors are afraid of them and there is more support for the US presence in the region than ever before.

[Joe McCarthy]

China can buy all the surplus Soviet crap it wants. The fact remains that the Chinese economy is tied to that of the US', plus the US is China's biggest debtor. So unless the Chinks are getting ready to commit economic suicide, I think we here in the US can sleep pretty easy knowing the Chinks aren't going to be sailing the People's Fleet to Pearl Harbor any time soon.

Germany and Britain had very close trade links before the Great War too.

[Joe McCarthy]

This carrier is more symbolic than it is a real threat, the Japanese and South Koreans can take this tub out, and yes Japan does have a fleet (i posted a link) as does SK, both are backed by the US pacific fleet.

Japan's fleet is inconsequential. Merely an auxilliary to any real war plans, if that.

[Aces High]

China's appeal has already weakened because they are aggressive, belligerent Communists.

Although the US are regarded as friendly amiable kinda guys...just ask any Laotin...Cambodian....Vietnamese........US armed forces..spreaading peace and love in asia.

[The Lawspeaker]

China's appeal has already weakened because they are aggressive, belligerent Communists. Their good rapport of a few years ago in providing bailout money for Asian economies has dried up. Their neighbors are afraid of them and there is more support for the US presence in the region than ever before.

The U.S should use that appeal then instead of wasting money and lifes in the Middle East where nothing can be won and will be won except for Purple Hearts and posthumously awarded medals.

Besides: sending the men to basis in the tropical Pacific and South-East Asia is good for morale - sending them to the United States even better.

[Aces High]

The Chinese are eminently trustworthy

So where are all those WMD's and chemical weapons we all heard the bastions of truth and representaives of the free world telling us were in Iraq.

[Saturni]

Germany and Britain had very close trade links before the Great War too.

And would still have had Churchill not taken a 2 million pound bribe from the Czech government to keep the war going.

[Saturni]

So where are all those WMD's and chemical weapons we all heard the bastions of truth and representaives of the free world telling us were in Iraq.

All in Israel last time I heard. :thumb001:

[Joe McCarthy]

I don't understand all the admiration for Putin by certain "nationalists", the european part of Russia is being invaded by kavkazes and other turquic-mongol muslims under the patronage of Putin. Since he rose to power the immigration laws became much softer and the islamic population in "white Russia" has skyrocketed. Moscow has around 2-2.5 million muslims, wich is already the biggest of any European city. In 1991, after the collapse of the Soviet Union there were very few muslims in Moscow.


Yes, in fact, Russia is worse off than even France in terms of the Islamic influx:


When discussing the Islamization of the West, France is usually cited as being the worst-off of the Western democracies. It has an estimated Muslim population of 10%, perhaps as high as 15%, and the demographics of the situation — a very low birthrate among the native French, and a baby boom among the Muslim immigrants — do not bode well for the future of France.


Russia is a special case. Its Muslim population is estimated at 10% to 12%, and its demographic situation is worse than that of France, so that Russian Islam is expected to grow rapidly. If present trends continue, Muslims will comprise a majority of the Russian military within a couple of decades.

Full piece here:

http://bigpeace.com/nmay/2010/12/27/...ore-islamized/

I suppose we can thank Vladimir Putin for this but I'll decline.

[Aces High]

All in Israel last time I heard. :thumb001:

Along with nuclear weapons...all directed at European capitals...but we arent supposed to talk about that.;)

[Joe McCarthy]

Although the US are regarded as friendly amiable kinda guys...just ask any Laotin...Cambodian....Vietnamese........US armed forces..spreaading peace and love in asia.

Vietnam is now one of our best allies in the region. They fear China, not the US.

[The Lawspeaker]

Vietnam is now one of our best allies in the region. They fear China, not the US.
So send them to Nam then instead off to Tora fucking Bora. :thumb001:

[Aces High]

Vietnam is now one of our best allies in the region.

I imagine all that agent orange you sprayed on them went to their heads.

[gandalf]

Joe Mc Carthy

the US want to be a super power and they are the first military power ,
but to do what ?

China has never been an imperialist country ,
Russia tries to raised from its underdevelopment with a major
threat on its population decreasing when its neighbours are invading the country ,
Europe is facing the same population problem ,

the only threat now is the population problem ,
Africa is 1 billion and expect to be 2 billions in 2050 .

The problem with US is that they support this desagregation
of ancient nations to go for the global governement dedicaded
to the power of mondialised finance an firms .

They use their power in an negative way for humanity .

We don't care about military power and war ,
nobody wants war , only the big money is interested , as usual !!!

So please if you could once considere the interests of people ,
more than the US interests for making more money .

[Saturni]

gandalf wrote,

China has never been an imperialist country

There are plenty of Chinese emperors who'd disagree. :D

[Joe McCarthy]

Joe Mc Carthy
the only threat now is the population problem ,


That's certainly true, and that will not be mitigated by realignment with a country that has a worse Muslim problem than even France.

Nor will taking a confrontational approach toward the strongest military power in history be a good way to remedy the problem.

[Saturni]

Two things you can say about China,

1) No negro crime problem

2) No muslim crime problem.

[Edgard]

gandalf wrote,


There are plenty of Chinese emperors who'd disagree. :D

Still China has been content to be more or less a closed nation in the past as long as it is left with its satellite states. This however is not garentee it will be so again as it has a new need for external resources of the type Siberia has just across the border.

[Joe McCarthy]

Still China has been content to be more or less a closed nation in the past as long as it is left with its satellite states. This however is not garentee it will be so again as it has a new need for external resources of the type Siberia has just across the border.

The Chinese are setting up shop all over the world with front companies. They look more like the British Empire than late Ming China.

[Joe McCarthy]

gandalf wrote,


There are plenty of Chinese emperors who'd disagree. :D

Yes, China occupied Vietnam for some two decades, for one.

[Aces High]

The Chinese are setting up shop all over the world with front companies.

Much like your semite friends.....you arent complaining about that though.

[European blood]

The purpose of NATO ceased when the Soviet Union fell.

NATO exists now as a kind of Cold War dinosaur. Aside from keeping Croats and Serbs from killing each other, it serves no other purpose other than being a huge financial and logistical drain on the participating countries.

It is rather amusing to watch the pathetic schemes and wars the US have to do to justify NATO operational existence today.



So then the answer is for France to lead Europe out of NATO and into a strategic arrangement with Russia? Gee, I wonder who that might be targeted against?

The money and power is moving to the East.

It would be more beneficial for Europe if they start giving more attention to the superpowers that aren't bankrupt like the US is.



Marine Le Pen may be ahead in the polls but she will not win the elections, she might go on 1st place in the 1st turn but on the 2nd turn Sarkozy will win because of the support of all the other political forces. In the best case scenario (for her), she might be invited for head-of-government under the presidency of Sarkozy.

Marine Le Pen have good chances of winning for many reasons.

She surely seems to be the best candidate at many levels.

If Sarkozy keeps screwing everything up he might also lose many of his zionist backers.

Sarkozy: Jewish State a 'Silly' Idea

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/148556#.TprGKfpQDiG



I don't understand all the admiration for Putin by certain "nationalists", the european part of Russia is being invaded by kavkazes and other turquic-mongol muslims under the patronage of Putin. Since he rose to power the immigration laws became much softer and the islamic population in "white Russia" has skyrocketed. Moscow has around 2-2.5 million muslims, wich is already the biggest of any European city. In 1991, after the collapse of the Soviet Union there were very few muslims in Moscow.

Putin is a christian, conservative and patriot.

That is appealing to some "nationalists".



Another thing i don't understand is the support of Iran by the same "nationalists", if they think that Iran as nuclear power won't be a possible threat for Europe they're complete imbecils. Iran is a very unstable country with tendencies to Fundamentalism, why allow them to adquire nuclear weapons that can be used against us in the future ?!

It isn't Iran that is waging wars in the middle east and causing the instability.

It isn't Iran that is fighting "terrorism" and at same time mantaining our borders wide open to receive those precious "islamofascist" refugees/immigrants and other potential terrorists.

Europe is far away from Iran so Iran isn't a big danger to Europe.

Israel having nuclear bombs is a bigger danger for Europe than Iran because they can hit us with their missiles.

A bigger balance of forces in the middle east is something desirable by some.

Pakistan is a lot more unstable than Iran and i don't see many complaining about their nukes.

The big problem with Iran is that they make a stand against the US/Israel world domination, that is why they are constantly demonized.



About France getting out of Nato that's an absolute nonsence, it's science fiction. It's dog barking.

No it isn't.

NATO is a burden and useless.

NATO doesn't defend the European interests.



Joe Mc Carthy

the US want to be a super power and they are the first military power ,
but to do what ?

China has never been an imperialist country ,
Russia tries to raised from its underdevelopment with a major
threat on its population decreasing when its neighbours are invading the country ,
Europe is facing the same population problem ,

the only threat now is the population problem ,
Africa is 1 billion and expect to be 2 billions in 2050 .

The problem with US is that they support this desagregation
of ancient nations to go for the global governement dedicaded
to the power of mondialised finance an firms .

They use their power in an negative way for humanity .

We don't care about military power and war ,
nobody wants war , only the big money is interested , as usual !!!

So please if you could once considere the interests of people ,
more than the US interests for making more money .

US interests usually are the 1% minority interests not the American people interests or "humanity" interests.



Two things you can say about China,

1) No negro crime problem

2) No muslim crime problem.

Muslims and Negros are like 1% of the population and China doesn't care so much about their rights and freedoms like the West, so negros and muslims must behave or else ...

[The Ripper]

I <3 Marine Le Pen

http://members.libreopinion.com/jeanne-d-arc/galerias/d_Arc_ingres.jpg

[Albion]

You dont know what you are talking about, again.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=Japan

Japan fields the 2nd largest Pacific fleet, behind the US.

Maybe they don't feel the need for large navies when most of the countries border each other and when Taiwan can be attacked or attack via a flyover, with the same for Japan and Korea.

[Laubach]

great news! Front National is the rescue of French culture and tradition. I hope she is elected and meets her words. In any case, I will vote on her

[Sahson]

a new incentive for me to improve my french again *gets out a french novel*

[AussieScott]

I don't think it is odd at all. I have read many of Putin's speeches myself and his firm desire is for European co-operation, above all. The only reason he is also one foot into Asia is for self-preservation against an aggressive NATO. And also ... why not friendship with China? Why always looking for stand-offishness and war/trouble?

It depends I guess if Russia gives China back the lands that China believes is there's before the 1870 and after WW2 borders were drawn up. If China agrees to form a Eurasian union or not. It seems one way at the moment and that's China's way, yet who knows.

China and the Asian block did deny Russia in the Georgia conflict in the UN.

War/stand offish/trouble happens when China makes incursions into India, South China seas, using bully tactics etc... Yet says diplomatically they mean peace, but actions speak louder than words. Nor does China explains its military build up. Military build ups mean two things, defence from internal and external conflicts or expansional ambitions. Which do you think they are?

Europe needs Russian fuel, look at North Africa and the Middle East...Europe denying the current refugees and making it hostile to those there, will make oil expensive from minor Asia.

[AussieScott]

Whether Putin actually believes in Occidental cultural preservation is irrelevant, I suppose, so long as his policies benefit the long term goals of said preservationists.

I quite understand this obsession some people have with China. The idea that China is some brooding military threat just seems silly to me. China needs the West as consumers for its extensive industries. Why it would want to go to war with the West and destroy their economy in the process, strains common sense.

China is just shy of 300 million middle class, at Chinese standards, guess who that replaces as a consumer?

In fact business in Europe, Australia and the USA are currently investing in research in how to tailor to this new consumer demographic. It might help us all a bit, but not enough I think.

The Republicans and the Democrats aren't putting down China for nothing, as it is costing Americans as it has costing Europeans and Australians, as many of our polluting and Labor intensive industries have relocated to China.

[Joe McCarthy]

Europe needs Russian fuel, look at North Africa and the Middle East...Europe denying the current refugees and making it hostile to those there, will make oil expensive from minor Asia.

Russia will sell its oil to Europe regardless. It's the biggest market in the world. Same with the Middle East, though the securing of Middle East oil is a function of US military power, something that few understand or appreciate.

In sum, about all Le Pen would accomplish with this move is piss the US off.

[AussieScott]

One shagged out coal powered aircraft carrier...so what.

Coal powered doesn't matter, new ones can be build refitted with different power sources.

The problem is the engineering technology, as China now has the ability to copy air carrier frigates and how to fit all the kit into small places. Which they were lacking before, China may even have a blue water fleet Navy before 2020 now. Giving China projection power into the South Pacific, from past actions this is what they intend to do.

Diplomatically China made a deal with Ukraine, not to use it for military purposes. China says one thing then does another. I thought that would be expected though.

[AussieScott]

Russia will sell its oil to Europe regardless. It's the biggest market in the world. Same with the Middle East, though the securing of Middle East oil is a function of US military power, something that few understand or appreciate.

In sum, about all Le Pen would accomplish with this move is piss the US off.

What do you think happened when the 1973's fuel shock hit the world?

After that did not the silent immigration of Muslims into Europe accelerate, and slowly after that into USA and Australia?

That was part of the deal with OPEC, for the Western world to allow a more Liberal immigration policy of Muslims into our mists, including the slow implementations of cultural arrangements. In order to keep the oil flowing, with out to much disruption.

The USA is not just the proxy of Israel but Proxy to the house of Saud. We are the favourite blue eyed slaves to the House of Saud, due to our economies need of oil.

Notice the Arab Springs favour the Sunni, and not the Shia Shiite?

Syria is next.

[AussieScott]

The global threat paradigm has changed. The enemies are no longer totalitarian superpowers, but raghead goatf*ckers wearing explosive vests. So the need for billion dollar weapon systems is no longer there. I mean how can you justify a new fleet of carriers when the biggest threat to world peace are a handful of smelly suicidal Arabs?

Hellfire, plus UAV surveillance, Intelligence and small special force incursion groups will take care of them, after the Coalition pulls out of Afghanistan.

China's hunger for oil may cause conflict though, as they are already bumping heads Geopolitically with the USA, it's just not so public yet.

[Joe McCarthy]

That was part of the deal with OPEC, for the Western world to allow a more Liberal immigration policy of Muslims into our mists, including the slow implementations of cultural arrangements. In order to keep the oil flowing, with out to much disruption.


What evidence is there of such an arrangement?

[AussieScott]

What evidence is there of such an arrangement?

1973 Europe put a hold on skilled immigration, and made refugee immigration more favourable. So the majority of Muslim workers of post WW2 who didn't go home, chose to stay, and rapidly increased the Muslim population via family reunification, under the new refugee programme. Then there was also the marriage scam going on. Who would of been the closest countries to Europe to smuggle in and make refugee claims? How many wars have occurred in Muslim countries since then?

In USA and Australia the Muslim immigration didn't really accelerate till the 1980-90's onwards. Through mainly refugee and family reunification same deal.

In the end we all end up with Muslims with village Tribal mentalities. Not very community cohesive.

In the 80's and 90's ASIO(Australian Security Intelligence Organisation), even warned PM Hawk and Keating at the time letting in these Muslim refugees posed a security threat, yet our politicians ignored them. I assume the USA politicians ignored the USA intelligence service to. So there must be a reason behind it.

Australia is now copping hate laws, our Muslim minority is now demanding Islamic laws and customs, de-facto blasphemy laws have been enacted etc... Doesn't take much to put two and two together.

I can find many links supporting this theory, yet not outright admitting it. Yet I have met quite a few bloggers with the same opinion.

[The Lawspeaker]

You know what. What you are saying makes some sense.

Islamic migration into the Netherlands (during right-wing governments) was relatively piece-meal and on a temporal basis.

During the 1970s under a left-wing cabinet it was curtailed while after 1980 it resumed and this time.. they let them stay - particularly after 1985.

[AussieScott]

USA will not like it if Le pen wins in France, being she will support Russia, which will support Shia Shiite of Iran and China. Simple as that. They will still have the Muslim problem though just as Russia does.

The world is heading for a cluster fuck.

[The Lawspeaker]

"Yawns".

[AussieScott]

You know what. What you are saying makes some sense.

Islamic migration into the Netherlands (during right-wing governments) was relatively piece-meal and on a temporal basis.

During the 1970s under a left-wing cabinet it was curtailed while after 1980 it resumed and this time.. they let them stay - particularly after 1985.

Slowly, slowly catch your monkey.

[Joe McCarthy]

1973 Europe put a hold on skilled immigration, and made refugee immigration more favourable. So the majority of Muslim workers of post WW2 who didn't go home, chose to stay, and rapidly increased the Muslim population via family reunification, under the new refugee programme. Then there was also the marriage scam going on. Who would of been the closest countries to Europe to smuggle in and make refugee claims? How many wars have occurred in Muslim countries since then?

In USA and Australia the Muslim immigration didn't really accelerate till the 1980-90's onwards. Through mainly refugee and family reunification same deal.

In the end we all end up with Muslims with village Tribal mentalities. Not very community cohesive.

In the 80's and 90's ASIO(Australian Security Intelligence Organisation), even warned PM Hawk and Keating at the time letting in these Muslim refugees posed a security threat, yet our politicians ignored them. I assume the USA politicians ignored the USA intelligence service to. So there must be a reason behind it.

Australia is now copping hate laws, our Muslim minority is now demanding Islamic laws and customs, de-facto blasphemy laws have been enacted etc... Doesn't take much to put two and two together.

I can find many links supporting this theory, yet not outright admitting it. Yet I have met quite a few bloggers with the same opinion.

Well, I've studied global migration policy thoroughly, and while it is true that Islamic immigration ramped up in the 70s it was due mostly to illegal immigration. I'm aware of no deal with OPEC. In fact, the French tried to crack down on immigration after 1973.

http://www.brookings.edu/articles/2002/0101france_guiraudon.aspx


Yet, as elsewhere in Western Europe, France's recruitment of new workers halted with the first oil shock in 1973. There were even attempts, under the conservative presidency of Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, to reverse the flow of immigrants by refusing to renew their residency permits. These projects failed, primarily because France's public administration used procedural means to block them. Since 1973, immigration policy in France has focused primarily on stemming and deterring migration

Further restrictions followed in France in the 90s with the 'zero immigration' initiative led by interior minister Charles Pasqua.


Politicians across the political spectrum responded by arguing in favor of "immigration zéro," and the right-wing coalition that came into power in 1993 translated the principle of zero immigration into policy. The "Pasqua law" of 1993, named after French interior minister Charles Pasqua, sought to stem the remaining legal flows in a variety of ways: by prohibiting foreign graduates from accepting job offers by French employers and denying them a stable residence status, by increasing the waiting period for family reunification from one to two years, and by denying residency permits to foreign spouses who had been illegally in the country prior to marrying.

These measures haven't fixed the problem, but they have prevented the problem from being worse than it would be without these measures. This suggests that any unproven deal with OPEC was ignored.

[Joe McCarthy]

Originally Posted by European blood
The money and power is moving to the East.

It would be more beneficial for Europe if they start giving more attention to the superpowers that aren't bankrupt like the US is.


The US will remain a far better export market than Russia until... forever.

[The Lawspeaker]

The US will remain a far better export market than Russia until... forever.
One that is so deep in debt that it can't pay for any outstanding loans ?

[Joe McCarthy]

One that is so deep in debt that it can't pay for any outstanding loans ?



The US has over twice the population, and an economy about ten times bigger, and more buying power. Russia's GDP isn't radically higher than the Netherlands.

[The Lawspeaker]

The US has over twice the population, and economy about ten times bigger, and more buying power. Russia's GDP isn't radically higher than the Netherlands.
But that will change. And Russia is not in debt. The USA is just living on borrowed time. Overextended and soon finished.

[Joe McCarthy]

But that will change.


No, it won't. Even under the most optimistic projections Russia will be much poorer than the US and have a much smaller market to buy products.

[The Lawspeaker]

No, it won't. Even under the most optimistic projections Russia will be much poorer than the US and have a much smaller market to buy products.
You overestimate American importance. Bankrupt countries have no real buying power. What Russia has: a market which is currently developing while America is yesterday.

The game's up.

[BeerBaron]

You overestimate American importance. Bankrupt countries have no real buying power. What Russia has: a market which is currently developing while America is yesterday.

The game's up.

No, its far from up, you just don't know anything about economics. US debt is not all that big of an issue, the US is a 14 TRILLION dollar economy, 25% of the world market. Russia's economic problems are about to get worse long term as well, China is on the verge of a housing bubble burst. Now go back to making silly little wishes upon a star.

[The Lawspeaker]

No, its far from up, you just don't know anything about economics. US debt is not all that big of an issue, the US is a 14 TRILLION dollar economy, 25% of the world market. Russia's economic problems are about to get worse long term as well, China is on the verge of a housing bubble burst. Now go back to making silly little wishes upon a star.
You read too much American press. If anything there five nations which are interesting: Canada, Russia, China, Brazil and India.

Why ? Because these countries can still grow and have a lot of resources (apart from China) while America has no more frontiers to develop. The game is up for America. It''s deep in debt that it will never repay it ? Industry ? Gone. Natural resources ? Yes.. they have so much they are attacking other countries for it.

Agriculture ? Ach.. we can get that stuff in Russia as well.

[BeerBaron]

You read too much American press. If anything there five nations which are interesting: Canada, Russia, China, Brazil and India.

Why ? Because these countries can still grow and have a lot of resources (apart from China) while America has no more frontiers to develop. The game is up for America. It''s deep in debt that it will never repay it ? Industry ? Gone. Natural resources ? Yes.. they have so much they are attacking other countries for it.

Agriculture ? Ach.. we can get that stuff in Russia as well.

No, I do this for a living. The problem with this is you don't know what you are talking about, and you should be more concerned about the European debt issue than the US.

The population density of the USA is tiny, it still has lots of space and lots of resources.

The US is the 3rd largest oil PRODUCER in the world, huge industries involving coal steel agriculture ect ect ect

[The Lawspeaker]

No, I do this for a living. The problem with this is you don't know what you are talking about, and you should be more concerned about the European debt issue than the US.
I am not concerned about German, Dutch and Scandinavian debts and as soon we leave the Eurozone we won't have to worry about it anymore.



The population density of the USA is tiny, it still has lots of space and lots of resources.
So that's why they are going into Iraq ?


The US is the 3rd largest oil PRODUCER in the world, huge industries involving coal steel agriculture ect ect ect
Huge industries which have closed down 30 years ago and that's why the Rust Belt is a mess. Ach.. you still have companies like Monsanto.

[BeerBaron]

I am not concerned about German, Dutch and Scandinavian debts and as soon we leave the Eurozone we won't have to worry about it anymore.


You're not leaving the Eurozone, and if the Euro splits you should be concerned about which side you are on, because thats the reality, not some conspiratorial fantasy.



So that's why they are going into Iraq ?


I realize you don't like facts, but thats what it is, look it up. Oil politics is just that, and the house of saud is set to be weakened with the Keystone pipeline from Canada to the refineries in Texas, so it could change.




Huge industries which have closed down 30 years ago and that's why the Rust Belt is a mess. Ach.. you still have companies like Monsanto.

Which only leaves them 3x times larger than the next country, oh they are so very close to collapsing i can just feel it:rolleyes:

[The Lawspeaker]

You're not leaving the Eurozone, and if the Euro splits you should be concerned about which side you are on, because thats the reality, not some conspiratorial fantasy.
That's what you hope but we probably will when things go on like this.




I realize you don't like facts, but thats what it is, look it up. Oil politics is just that, and the house of saud is set to be weakened with the Keystone pipeline from Canada to the refineries in Texas, so it could change.
Oil politics is not just that. It is what had countless Americans and Europeans killed.





Which only leaves them 3x times larger than the next country, oh they are so very close to collapsing i can just feel it:rolleyes:
You will see.

[ikki]

anyways, joe, consider this. If she does not get on top, france will go islamic. Then youll have a islamic france with lots of nuclear powerplants, whole damn plutonium enrichment facilities and nukes.
Isnt it better to have a french france, even if they arent too happy to work with you?

...unless you really wanto to bomb and invade france that is...

[Joe McCarthy]

anyways, joe, consider this. If she does not get on top, france will go islamic. Then youll have a islamic france with lots of nuclear powerplants, whole damn plutonium enrichment facilities and nukes.
Isnt it better to have a french france, even if they arent too happy to work with you?

...unless you really wanto to bomb and invade france that is...

If she is elected her NATO plan will get nowhere in the National Assembly, so I'm not that worried about a Le Pen victory.

And Islam rising in France is certainly a national security threat - for all of us.

[The Lawspeaker]

If she is elected her NATO plan will get nowhere in the National Assembly, so I'm not that worried about a Le Pen victory.
Completely disregarding the fact that the French have left before (1966) and only returned in 2006. :rolleyes:


And Islam rising in France is certainly a national security threat - for all of us.
Yap. But I guess that America would just work with the new Islamic government against any French that want to break away. You know like in Kosovo or Bosnia. :coffee:

[Joe McCarthy]

Completely disregarding the fact that the French have left before (1966) and only returned in 2006. :rolleyes:


France never left NATO. They only left the integrated command structure. Le Pen wants to exit altogether. De Gaulle's NATO move eventually led to a reorientation of French foreign policy toward the Arab world. How has that worked out?


Yap. But I guess that America would just work with the new Islamic government against any French that want to break away. You know like in Kosovo or Bosnia.

Well, the Bosnians and Kosovars are certainly friendlier to the US than Marine Le Pen, that's for sure.

[BeerBaron]

That's what you hope but we probably will when things go on like this.



Oil politics is not just that. It is what had countless Americans and Europeans killed.




You will see.

No, its more likely they will get on their hands and knees and beg the Norwegians to join, which they wont do. You are in the EU and now you're stuck with it. We'll see what happens with the Euro in the coming years.

The number is not really countless, but thats the cost of the worlds most precious resource, get over it.

No, I won't see. In fact the most normal thing about this last recession is that everyone said the sky was falling and the US was collapsing. Typical recession sentiment, the sky didn't fall, the US didnt collapse and the world is not coming to an end.

[The Lawspeaker]

No, its more likely they will get on their hands and knees and beg the Norwegians to join, which they wont do. You are in the EU and now you're stuck with it. We'll see what happens with the Euro in the coming years.

The number is not really countless, but thats the cost of the worlds most precious resource, get over it.

No, I won't see. In fact the most normal thing about this last recession is that everyone said the sky was falling and the US was collapsing. Typical recession sentiment, the sky didn't fall, the US didnt collapse and the world is not coming to an end.

There is a chance that when the Germans get out that our government can be forced to prepare itself for a return to the Guilder. And I don't think that you realise how fed up people here are with the Euro or the present-EU.

[The Lawspeaker]

France never left NATO. They only left the integrated command structure. Le Pen wants to exit altogether. De Gaulle's NATO move eventually led to a reorientation of French foreign policy toward the Arab world. How has that worked out?
While she would focus more on Europe and Russia. Which sounds like a much better idea then the Arab world or the Jewsa.

I bet that she would get enough votes to go ahead with it as I don't think that the French have forgotten how bad the Americans have always scorned them. :thumb001:

With a bit of luck it will begin to unravel or will America then try a Paris Spring ? :coffee:




Well, the Bosnians and Kosovars are certainly friendlier to the US than Marine Le Pen, that's for sure.
Because they are good lap dogs.

[BeerBaron]

While she would focus more on Europe and Russia. Which sounds like a much better idea then the Arab world or the Jewsa.

I bet that she would get enough votes to go ahead with it as I don't think that the French have forgotten how bad the Americans have always scorned them. :thumb001:

With a bit of luck it will begin to unravel or will America then try a Paris Spring ? :coffee:



Because they are good lap dogs.


Yes I can see the speech now "the americans have scorned us for the last time, via la france"

phone call to whitehouse later that night "can you send over a carrier, it turns out our mouth was bigger than our military in this whole libya issue", "oh no mr president, that was just politics, you know the drill":rolleyes:

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes I can see the speech now "the americans have scorned us for the last time, via la france"

phone call to whitehouse later that night "can you send over a carrier, it turns out our mouth was bigger than our military in this whole libya issue", "oh no mr president, that was just politics, you know the drill":rolleyes:
Hmm knowing America they would find other ways to attempt to sabotage French independence. Financial stuff etc.

But when France leaves -- count on other European countries to follow.

[Skanderbeg Is God]

Completely disregarding the fact that the French have left before (1966) and only returned in 2006. :rolleyes:


Yap. But I guess that America would just work with the new Islamic government against any French that want to break away. You know like in Kosovo or Bosnia. :coffee:


From our constitution

Article 7 [Values]
1. The constitutional order of the Republic of Kosovo is based on the principles of freedom,
peace, democracy, equality, respect for human rights and freedoms and the rule of law,
non-discrimination, the right to property, the protection of environment, social justice,
pluralism, separation of state powers, and a market economy.
2. The Republic of Kosovo ensures gender equality as a fundamental value for the
democratic development of the society, providing equal opportunities for both female and
male participation in the political, economic, social, cultural and other areas of societal
life.
Article 8 [Secular State]
The Republic of Kosovo is a secular state and is neutral in matters of religious beliefs.

Civis Batavi you are shame of our society , you are liar ,you dont have honor nor dignity.

[The Lawspeaker]

From our constitution


Civis Batavi you are shame of our society and shame of your country you are most liar i ever know in my life you dont have honor nor dignity.
Your constitution isn't worth the paper it has been written on. They will remove it as soon as Europe looks the other way. Come on: you're Albanians. And Albanians are scum.

Now fuck off.

[Joe McCarthy]

Originally posted by Civis Batavi
While she would focus more on Europe and Russia. Which sounds like a much better idea then the Arab world or the Jewsa.


France is already about as focused on Europe as is possible. The EU is a sort of Franco-German alliance. And De Gaulle's turn to the Arabs was an anti-Israel act, btw, so I guess that's fine grist for the mills of Jewspiracists....


I bet that she would get enough votes to go ahead with it as I don't think that the French have forgotten how bad the Americans have always scorned them.

It'd help if any of her party members were in the National Assembly, no?


Because they are good lap dogs.


On a rationality scale Balkan Muslims rate ahead of French nationalists. That scares me. It should scare you too.

[Monolith]

NATO exists now as a kind of Cold War dinosaur. Aside from keeping Croats and Serbs from killing each other, it serves no other purpose other than being a huge financial and logistical drain on the participating countries.
I can't recall NATO doing something to prevent it.

Le Pen is a moron. Historically the US has much more in common with France than Russia does. We had revolutions based on more or less similar ideals, and while US marched into Paris to liberate it, Russia marched in to conquer it.
French Influence in Russia (http://www.answers.com/topic/french-influence-in-russia)

On topic, I completely support Mrs. Le Pen's efforts. Vive la France! :thumb001:

[The Lawspeaker]

France is already about as focused on Europe as is possible. The EU is a sort of Franco-German alliance. And De Gaulle's turn to the Arabs was an anti-Israel act, btw, so I guess that's fine grist for the mills of Jewspiracists....
As long as it is anti-Israel it's fine with me. But this time with the Russians and Germans. :thumb001:




It'd help if any of her party members were in the National Assembly, no?
You'll find out.




On a rationality scale Balkan Muslims rate ahead of French nationalists. That scares me. It should scare you too.
Not rationalist. Just good corrupt lap dogs.

[Joe McCarthy]

Originally Posted by Monolith
I can't recall NATO doing something to prevent it.


You guys would probably be killing each other in Bosnia as we speak without NATO. :coffee:


French influence in Russia.

I'll show you French influence in Russia:

http://www.laughtergenealogy.com/bin/histprof/images/napoleon1.jpg

Meanwhile, French influence in America:

http://atp.cx/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Statue-of-Liberty.jpg

We also have some people of French ancestry here, including myself. They're found mostly in New England and Louisiana. I trust you've heard of New Orleans, Bourbon Street, and the French Quarter, along with Napoleon selling it to us to finance the same set of wars that involved him invading Russia.

But beyond that both the US and France are Western democracies. Russia on the other hand, is, well...

[The Lawspeaker]

You guys would probably be killing each other in Bosnia as we speak without NATO. :coffee:
Good. Let's chase those Muslims out of Europe. :coffee:




I'll show you French influence in Russia:

http://www.laughtergenealogy.com/bin/histprof/images/napoleon1.jpg
You wouldn't recognise French influence if it was stuffed in your mouth lol.


Meanwhile, French influence in America:

http://atp.cx/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/Statue-of-Liberty.jpg

Hmm French influence in America ? You couldn't have picked a worse example could you ? Parisian freemasons.


We also have some people of French ancestry here, including myself. They're found mostly in New England and Louisiana. I trust you've heard of New Orleans, Bourbon Street, and the French Quarter, along with Napoleon selling it to us to finance the same set of wars that involved him invading Russia.
Hmm.. and you also have British and "Dutch" heritage. So Joe, what the hell are you ?


But beyond that both the US and France are Western democracies. Russia on the other hand, is, well...
Since when is America a democracy ? Officially it's a constitutional republic. De facto a plutocracy. And the same goes for most "democratic" European countries.

[AussieScott]

Well, I've studied global migration policy thoroughly, and while it is true that Islamic immigration ramped up in the 70s it was due mostly to illegal immigration. I'm aware of no deal with OPEC. In fact, the French tried to crack down on immigration after 1973.

http://www.brookings.edu/articles/2002/0101france_guiraudon.aspx



Further restrictions followed in France in the 90s with the 'zero immigration' initiative led by interior minister Charles Pasqua.



These measures haven't fixed the problem, but they have prevented the problem from being worse than it would be without these measures. This suggests that any unproven deal with OPEC was ignored.


Look at the right hand waving around, while the left hand works to undermined it. Politics is politics. If the politicians were serious they would of rounded them up, put them on planes and flown them back. The cheapest and most serious option.

You should read up on how Hong Kong took care of the Vietnamese illegal immigration. A solution that works.

By the way where has Frances policies on immigration lead there nation to?

[Drawing-slim]

Your constitution isn't worth the paper it has been written on. They will remove it as soon as Europe looks the other way. Come on: you're Albanians. And Albanians are scum.

Now fuck off.
If it ain't dutch it ain't much, of a cocksucker:D

[The Lawspeaker]

If it ain't dutch it ain't much, of a cocksucker:D

http://www.asnbooks.nl/images/two-finger-salute-18-22-357.jpg

[AussieScott]

Yo Joe I found my evidence...Trust the Jews to watch anything they perceive as a threat, eh who could blame them. Since Jews today are being driven out of Europe by mainly Muslims, it seems they are right. :thumb001:

In the end I think the anti Jew Europeans will change there mind when the hordes of Islam knock, the historical pattern is there and the Muslims have the population bomb, in the guise as refugees coming in waves...

In Australia we've been keeping an eye on our neighbours to the North ever since the Indo Islamists shook hands with the Chinese communists after the Korean war. The Indonesian back then in schools had maps of the top half of Australia belonging to them, as did the Chinese in the Korean war. Chinese Communist propaganda of the 50's but still...



Pipeline to Peril
How Europe’s surrender in the face of the 1973 oil embargo turned the continent against Israel and set off a wave of violence against Jews.

by Richard L. Rubenstein

On the European continent, Jews are under siege. The EU has turned aggressively against Israel, and the post-Holocaust taboo on anti-Semitic speech and incitement has been broken, opening the way for a plethora of anti-Jewish statements, cartoons, and caricatures.

What lies at the root of this shift? During the 1973 Yom Kippur War, the Organization of Arab Petroleum Exporting Countries unleashed the oil weapon, embargoing critical oil exports to the United States and Western Europe as a strategy for compelling Israel to withdraw unconditionally from all territories occupied in the 1967 war.

The US rejected Arab demands, but the European Community (EC, later EU), more dependent on Arab oil than America, decided on a policy of outright appeasement. This led to a series of quasi-official meetings between European and Arab officials and experts that culminated in a meeting at the ministerial level in Paris on July 31, 1974. There, an agreement was reached to initiate the Euro-Arab Dialogue (EAD), an ongoing series of closed, high-level meetings between senior officials of the two sides which would enable the EC and the Arab League to formulate a new understanding on economic, cultural, and diplomatic issues. An important EAD objective was the eventual replacement of the US by the French-led European Community as the dominant influence in the Middle East. Over time, the EAD would institute a number of long-term policy agreements that guaranteed the Europeans both an uninterrupted oil supply and lucrative export contracts with oil-rich Arab states. In return, the Europeans would facilitate international recognition of the PLO at a time when its charter called for Israel's destruction, and enable Arab religious, cultural, and intellectual institutions to achieve unprecedented influence in Europe.

The Arabs also pressured the EC to relax its immigration rules and permit a massive influx of Muslims into Europe. From its inception, every EAD meeting passed resolutions in support of Muslim immigration to Europe.

By 2003, according to the US Department of State's Annual Report on International Religious Freedom, excluding Turkey, 23.2 million Muslims resided in Europe. And as the Muslim population in Europe increased, so too did its political clout and anti-Semitism.

A New Phase of Jewish History

The stage had already been set for Europe's return to mainstream anti-Semitism by France's Charles De Gaulle when he asserted at a November 28, 1967 press conference that "Jews are still what they had always been--an elite people, sure of themselves and domineering" and responsible for "provoking ill-will in certain countries and at certain times." Breaking the post-Holocaust taboo, he deliberately stirred up anti-Semitic sentiments in an effort to curry favor with the Muslim world at a time when Arabs were still in a state of shock and rage over their humiliating defeat in the Six-Day War at the hands of the Israelis in June 1967. The celebrated French-Jewish social theorist Raymond Aron, who had previously been sympathetic to De Gaulle, immediately understood the import of De Gaulle's attack. Aron, a highly assimilated French Jew, rightly concluded that "General De Gaulle knowingly and deliberately initiated a new phase of Jewish history."

Deploying the Arab Oil Weapon

On Yom Kippur, October 6, 1973, Egypt and Syria attacked Israel. Ten days later, in the midst of the war, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait, and Qatar announced a stunning 70 percent rise in oil prices, from $3.01 to $5.12 a barrel. On October 17, the Arab oil producers reduced production by 5 percent and threatened further cuts of 5 percent a month until Israel withdrew completely from the occupied territories. A day later, October 18, Saudi Arabia announced that it would cut production 10 percent until Arab terms were met. On October 19, Saudi Arabia, Libya, and other Arab oil producers imposed a total oil embargo on the United States and the Netherlands in retaliation for their support of Israel during the war. (The US had airlifted arms to Israel in response to the Soviet Union's attempt to supply Egypt with a sufficient number of weapons to defeat Israel and become the Middle East's dominant superpower.) France and Great Britain were effectively exempt from the embargo--a reward for having denied US access to their airfields to resupply Israel.

The European response to the Arab oil weapon was both swift and craven. Meeting in Brussels on November 6, 1973, two weeks after the war's end, the nine foreign ministers of the European Economic Community (EEC) issued an unambiguously pro-Arab statement listing what they regarded as essential requirements for Middle East peace. These included the termination of Israel's 1967 occupation of Arab territory and recognition of the "legitimate rights of the Palestinians," a condition mild by today's standards but not so in 1973 when the PLO was engaged in international terror. The European foreign ministers also asserted the "inadmissibility of acquiring territory by force," a doctrine they applied exclusively to Israel. And, employing an old trick in diplomacy--mistranslation--they distorted the intent of UN Resolution 242. Originally formulated in English, the resolution referred only to an unspecified Israeli "withdrawal from territories" in exchange for an end to the Arab-Israeli conflict. The French translation improperly altered the original meaning to "from the territories" (des territories), creating the false impression that under the UN resolution Israel had no legitimate claim to any part of the occupied West Bank. In spite of American opposition, the EEC had signaled to the Arabs that it would meet their demands.

The Europeans also attempted to convince the United States to join them in pressuring Israel to withdraw from the occupied territories. According to then US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger, European leaders complained that the United States was to blame for the Yom Kippur War because of its failure to force Israel into a settlement. In their view, America had put vital European interests at risk because of "domestic politics." In reality, this was a nasty bit of code language in which the Europeans blamed the United States for allegedly pandering to the Jewish lobby at Europe's expense.

The Nixon Administration rejected the European position. Capitulating to the Arabs under pressure, the US insisted, would signal weakness and lead to demands for further concessions. Instead, Washington sought a unified response by the oil-consuming nations to counter the Arab oil weapon. Speaking in London on December 12, 1973, Kissinger called for the establishment of "an Energy Action group of senior and prestigious individuals with a mandate to develop within three months an initial action program for collaboration in all areas of the energy problem." Kissinger reasoned that the embargo had been the result of unified action by the producing nations and that only the unified response of the consumers offered any hope of coming to a mutually satisfactory agreement.

Led by the French, the Europeans would have none of it. French President Georges Pompidou told Kissinger that France would not run the slightest risk of an oil cutoff; nor would it participate in any action or policy that might provoke a confrontation with the Arab states.

On December 4, 1973, the Dutch bowed to Arab pressure, denouncing Israel's occupation of Arab territories as "illegal" and demanding a total withdrawal. What had prompted this change of policy? Three days earlier, the Saudi and Algerian oil ministers had met with the Dutch Minister of Commerce in The Hague and requested a special anti-Israeli "gesture" as the price of lifting the embargo.

In mid-September, 1974, emboldened by their diplomatic successes, Arab delegates attending a conference of European and Arab parliamentarians in Damascus demanded that the Europeans agree to four points as a pre-condition for economic cooperation: 1) unconditional Israeli withdrawal to the 1949 armistice lines; 2) Arab sovereignty over the old city of Jerusalem; 3) the participation of the PLO and Arafat in any negotiations; and 4) EEC pressure to detach the US from Israel "and bring its policies closer to those of the Arab states."

Over time, the Europeans consented to these demands. A common pro-Arab Middle Eastern policy was agreed upon that sought to create "a global alternative to American power." The EAD was assigned the task of creating institutional structures to facilitate the integration and harmonization of European and Arab policies in international affairs, culture, education, and the media.

However, the architects of this policy faced a major obstacle--European public sentiment remained pro-Israel.

The Immigration Factor

Georges Montaron, the influential director of Témoignage Chrétien, a left-wing Catholic group with a strong pro-Arab bias, had anticipated this problem. In a 1970 lecture in Cairo, he advised his Arab audience: "If you succeed in making from authentic Oriental Arabs authentic Frenchmen and Englishmen, what an influence you would yield in Europe." A wave of Arab immigration to Europe, Montaron realized, could turn the tide of public opinion against Israel.

Montaron was well aware that, beginning with Germany's Gastarbeiter (temporary "guest" worker) program in the 1950s, Western Europe was already recruiting Arabs, Turks, Kurds, and other Muslims to solve the labor shortage that had developed during the postwar reconstruction period. However, these temporary workers were expected to return home when no longer needed. Permanent residence would be assured only when either the workers or their children became eligible for citizenship. Citizenship in France and Great Britain was automatically granted to anyone born in the country. In Germany, citizenship was based on blood kinship rather than place of birth--but this changed on January 1, 2000, when new citizenship laws were enacted making it possible to acquire citizenship by being born in Germany, and in some cases through naturalization.

With EAD encouragement, Muslim immigration to Europe soared, and with the advent of a new generation, so did the number of Muslim citizens. In 2003, for example, only 15-20 percent of Germany's Muslims were citizens, but a recent study by the Konrad Adenauer Foundation found that the majority of Muslims are planning to apply or in the process of applying for citizenship. Writing in the Washington Quarterly (Summer 2004), Timothy M. Savage, division chief of the US Department of State's Office of European Analysis, concluded that "these figures indicate that Germany could soon have up to 2.4 million new [Muslim] citizens and, significantly, potential voters." A similar surge in Muslim voting power is expected in Spain; in Italy, where 10 percent of its approximately one million Muslims currently hold Italian citizenship; and in the countries of Scandinavia, where the percentage of Muslims who are citizens are expected to increase significantly from the current 15-30 percent levels.

Just as Montaron had foreseen, massive Muslim immigration has had a profound impact on European sentiment toward Israel and Jews, ranging from the widespread pro-Arab slant in the news media to efforts to eliminate Holocaust commemorative events and Holocaust education in public schools. In January 2005, for example, Sir Iqbal Sacranie, O.B.E., Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, wrote to Charles Clarke, the British Home Secretary, saying that the Muslim Council would not attend Holocaust Memorial Day, a national observance under the patronage of the Queen, unless it included the "holocaust" of the Palestinian Intifada (Sunday Times, London, January 23, 2005). In July 2005, some members of the Prime Minister's all-Muslim advisory committee on Islamic affairs called for the abolition of Holocaust Memorial Day altogether "because it is offensive to Muslims." Continued observance, they warned, would encourage extremism among young Muslims, a not very veiled threat coming shortly after the London subway bombings. In its place, they advocated creation of a day commemorating all genocide victims, including the Palestinians (The Sunday Times, London, September 11, 2005).

Given their numbers, Muslims have already achieved significant clout in local elections, especially in France and England. To curry favor, some British politicians, such as Ken Livingstone, London's mayor, have publicly expressed hostility toward Israel. In July 2004, Livingstone officially received as an honored guest Sheikh Yusef al-Qaradawi, a celebrity satellite TV preacher who makes his home in Qatar. In honoring Qaradawi, Livingstone ignored his guest's public approval of suicide bombings targeting civilians in Israel and the indiscriminate killing of Americans in Iraq.

In Germany, the addition of 2.4 million Muslim citizens could have a major impact on future national elections. With the Christian Democrats and Social Democrats equally divided, Muslim voters, who are overwhelmingly anti-American as well as anti-Israel, could tip the scales with serious strategic consequences.

The German government retains something of a special relationship with Israel, although most Germans are more sympathetic to the Palestinians than to the Israelis. According to a 2004 University of Bielefeld opinion poll, 68 percent of "non-immigrant" Germans believe that Israel is waging a war of extermination against the Palestinians, while 51 percent believe there is not much difference between what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians and what the Nazis did to the Jews. In her first address to the German Parliament as Chancellor, Angela Merkel declared that Germany will stand by Israel and sell the Jewish state two advanced long-range submarines at a cost of $1.17 billion, with Germany sharing one-third the cost. Still, on December 1, 2005, when the UN General Assembly voted overwhelmingly in favor of six one-sided resolutions critical of Israel, Germany, along with every EU member, voted with the majority. Only the United States and Australia were among the major nations to vote against the resolutions.

Anti-Semitic Attacks Accelerate

Today, France has the largest Muslim population in Europe, numbering between 4.5 and 6 million, of which more than three-fifths are citizens. Mahmoud M. Ayoub of Temple University has projected that "by the early decades of the twenty-first century, Muslims will constitute half the population of France" (World Religions: Western Traditions, Oxford University Press). The much smaller Jewish community of approximately 650,000 has increasingly been the target of Muslim extremists. According to a report by the anti-Semitism watchdog organization S.O.S. Vérité-Sécurité, 147 Jewish institutions--schools, synagogues, community centers, businesses--were attacked in 2004 alone. According to the Ministry of the Interior, the number of reported attacks rose from 833 in 2003 to 1,565 in 2004. The slogan "Mort aux juifs" (Death to the Jews) has been scribbled on school blackboards and uttered at mass rallies. Rabbis have been assaulted. Sebastien Salem, an Algerian Jew and one of the country's most popular DJs, was the victim of a ritualistic near-decapitation in Paris. The killer, a neighbor of Salem's, told his mother: "I have killed my Jew. I can go to paradise." Not surprisingly, there has been a significant increase in French-Jewish immigration to Israel. According to Jewish Agency statistics, Jewish immigration from France rose 30 percent in the first half of 2005. By the end of the year, Agency officials expect 3,300 new French arrivals--the highest number in thirty-five years and one of the highest from any single country.

European leaders have sought to play down the rising rate of attacks by some Muslims against Jews and Jewish institutions. However, a series of anti-Semitic incidents in early 2002 prompted the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia, an EU-sponsored institution, to commission the Center for Research on Anti-Semitism (CRA) of the Technical University of Berlin to conduct a study on the prevalence of physical and verbal violence against Jews and Jewish institutions. The CRA submitted its 112-page report in October 2002. Despite the CRA's impeccable reputation for scientific research, the EU withheld publication of the report, deeming "inflammatory" one of its key conclusions--namely that Muslim and pro-Palestinian groups were largely responsible for the new and violent wave of hatred in Europe. According to the study, of the "191 violent attacks on synagogues, Jewish schools, kosher shops, cemeteries, and rabbis in 2002," most had been perpetrated by "youth from neighborhoods sensitive to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."

The EU's attempt to suppress the report backfired when it was leaked to the press by an unknown source. In July 2003, US Congressman Robert Wexler (D, Florida) wrote to Javier Solana, the EU's foreign policy chief, demanding its release. Forced to respond, the EU issued a revised report, claiming that the original was of "poor quality and lacking in empirical evidence." Refuting this claim, the CRA published a detailed account both of its dealings with the EU commission and its research methods, noting: "There is some evidence that it was...political pressure from various EU countries on the management board that had led to its [the original report's] non-publication...."

The new version of the EU report blatantly contradicted one of the key conclusions of the original. Acknowledging that some of the perpetrators were young Muslims and "people of North African origin," the revised report stated that the largest group of perpetrators of anti-Semitic activities appeared to be young, disaffected white Europeans influenced by extreme right ideas on Jews. This statement contradicted the original study's findings that in 2002 "the percentage [of anti-Semitic activities] attributable to the extreme right was only nine per cent." The findings of the original EU report have since been corroborated by the US State Department Report on Global Anti-Semitism, issued on January 5, 2005, as well as by the ADL's survey of "Attitudes Toward Jews in Twelve European Countries," independently prepared by First International Resources, LLC and issued on May 5, 2005.

The Future of Europe

As its Muslim population increases, Europe faces a growing threat from Islamic radicals. According to Bassam Tibi, professor of Political Science at Germany's Göttingen University, himself a Muslim and an internationally recognized authority on Islamic extremism, "The goal of the Islamic fundamentalists is to abolish the Western, secular order and replace it with a new Islamic divine order....The goal of the Islamists is a new imperial, absolutist Islamic power." Professor Tibi explains that while about half of the world's Muslim population may hope for the future supremacy of Islam, only between 3 and 5 percent are willing to resort to violence and, if necessary, suicide. His estimates are hardly reassuring: 3 to 5 percent of the world's Muslim population ranges from 39 to 65 million people.

Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad, an extremist Muslim leader formerly domiciled in London, confirms Tibi's assessment of Islamic fundamentalist goals. In an interview in Le Monde (September 9, 1998), the sheikh declared that the Islamist movement intends "to make the flag of Islam fly high at No. 10 Downing Street and at the Élysée Palace." Similar positions have been expressed by other highly influential Muslim leaders, including Sheikh Yousef Al-Qaradhawi, Mayor Ken Livingstone's honored guest in London; and Saudi Sheikh Muhammad bin Abd Al-Rahman Al-'Arifi, imam of the mosque of the King Fahd Defense Academy. Qaradhawi, who broadcasts a weekly program on Al Jazeera with a worldwide audience, has often stated in his TV sermons that "Islam will return to Europe as a conqueror," although he is careful to add that "the conquest this time will not be by the sword but by preaching and ideology."

All authorities are agreed that European Islam is by no means a monolith. Nevertheless, younger European-born Muslims tend to be more alienated from the dominant culture than are their parents and grandparents. According to a 2003 Le Figaro survey, three-fourths of French Muslim respondents regarded the values of Islam as compatible with those of the French Republic, but only one-fourth of those under 25 concurred. These alienated European-born Muslims constitute a fertile recruiting group for extremists who openly call for the Muslim conquest of Europe.

Harvard historian Niall Ferguson has observed that "the whole of Western Europe is entering a new era of demographic transformation without parallel in modern times." Princeton Professor Bernard Lewis has predicted (in a July 28, 2004 interview in Die Welt) that "Europe will be Muslim by the end of the century." No one can be sure whether such projections will actually come to pass, but regardless of whether Muslims achieve a numerical majority, there can be no doubt that their power and influence in Europe is in the ascendancy. And if present trends continue, we can expect to see an intensification of anti-Israel sentiments and policies as well as a proliferation of attacks against European Jews.

In the final analysis, Europe's new anti-Semitism is the result of a foreign policy rooted in European dependence on Arab oil. Some thirty years ago, in response to a temporary crisis, Europe's leaders made the fateful decision to appease the Arab League and open their gates to a population that includes elements which pose a serious threat not only to Jews but, as the Madrid and London bombings and last November's riots in France demonstrate, to all Europeans.

http://reformjudaismmag.org/Articles/index.cfm?id=1113

[Contra Mundum]

NATO served a valuable purpose during the Cold War, but today it serves a new purpose, to advance the Jewish agenda. The sooner NATO is disbanded the better.

[Joe McCarthy]

NATO served a valuable purpose during the Cold War, but today it serves a new purpose, to advance the Jewish agenda. The sooner NATO is disbanded the better.

Uh huh. Which is why Israel opposed NATO bombing Serbia I guess.

To advance the Jewish agenda.

[Joe McCarthy]

Yo Joe I found my evidence...Trust the Jews to watch anything they perceive as a threat, eh who could blame them. Since Jews today are being driven out of Europe by mainly Muslims, it seems they are right. :thumb001:

In the end I think the anti Jew Europeans will change there mind when the hordes of Islam knock, the historical pattern is there and the Muslims have the population bomb, in the guise as refugees coming in waves...

In Australia we've been keeping an eye on our neighbours to the North ever since the Indo Islamists shook hands with the Chinese communists after the Korean war. The Indonesian back then in schools had maps of the top half of Australia belonging to them, as did the Chinese in the Korean war. Chinese Communist propaganda of the 50's but still...




http://reformjudaismmag.org/Articles/index.cfm?id=1113

Interesting stuff. Thanks. It is belied though by France attempting reverse migration and issuing more expulsion orders post-1973. These were blocked by French courts and bureaucrats.

[Contra Mundum]

The Clinton Administration was Jewish dominated. Madeline Albright was a leading proponent of the war on Serbia. She also pressed for military action in Iraq. US foreign policy was controlled by Albright, Berger and Cohen. All of them Jewish.

Sometimes the Israeli and Jewish worldview will not be on the same page. Israeli nationalists are more focused on what is good for Israel specifically to be troubled with the Jewish agenda internationally. Because some Israel's may have had words of support for Serbia, and in the past with South Africa, has no bearing on the Jewish global agenda.

[AussieScott]

Interesting stuff. Thanks. It is belied though by France attempting reverse migration and issuing more expulsion orders post-1973. These were blocked by French courts and bureaucrats.

You'll find our western courts of today are dominated by Libertarians, Leftists and brotherhood of man types, all influenced by multicultural Marxism. All pushing for the globalise mush and mash for the peoples of tomorrow.

It's the right thing to do of course, until they have the dirty masses run them over, or worse have to live next door to them...

[Monolith]

You guys would probably be killing each other in Bosnia as we speak without NATO. :coffee:

Yeah, I'm sure we'd be at each other's throats if it wasn't for NATO. :rolleyes:

As if the sheer power of USA and Western European nations isn't enough to sustain the contemporary Pax Americana.


I'll show you French influence in Russia:

I thought it was quite obvious that my intention was to show that there were real and significant connections between France and Russia, both historical and cultural ones.

It's rather pointless to compare the scope of various complex phenomena (as culture, politics and history) observed in relations between different countries in such a simplistic manner anyway.

[Skanderbeg Is God]

If it ain't dutch it ain't much, of a cocksucker:D
He is not dutch, he is proud Nerd-erlander.