Eastern Balkanite origin of Albanians?

[Varda]

Albanian language have more similarities with East Romance languages (Romanian, Aromanian) than with Dalmato-Romance language which was language of romanized Illyrians.

In Albanian culture there exist custom Besa similar as Thracian tribe Bessi (they were never romanized)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Besa_(Albanian_culture)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi

According to Kaplan Burović and Eqrem Çabej Albanians settled in 10th century in Mat region in Albania from Bulgaria.

It's interesting existence of town Burrel in Mat region and Burel valley in western Bulgaria possible original homeland of Albanians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burrel_(town)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burel_Valley

[Varda]

Kaplan Burović about origin of Albanians https://archive.org/stream/KaplanBurovi-WhoAreAlbanians/K.Burovic-Who_Are_Albanians_djvu.txt

[GalenStark]

Why do you feel the need to repackage baseless theories perpetuated by Serbs?

We're in the age of genetics. This nonsensical stuff holds no water.

It's always a Serb who acts like an authority in the matter. Actual professionals in the field have debunked this nonsense.

We all know Serbs push this theory because their Cacausus theory is on part with tinfoil hat wearing folk, and they are trying desperately to remove Albanian origins from anywhere near or in Kosova.

Y-DNA in middle Bronze Age Dalmatia is most dominant in Albanians(J2b-L283), and it has also been found in middle Bronze Age Albania along with R1b, and V13 in Iron Age Albania(which will be released in the next few years). Albanian Y-Chromosomes were also found in Mokra, Serbian Bronze Age.

Your attempts to remove Albanians from lands their ancestors occupied for far longer than the existence of a Serbian identity is just comedy at this point.

[Varda]

Why do you feel the need to repackage baseless theories perpetuated by Serbs?

We're in the age of genetics. This nonsensical stuff holds no water.

It's always a Serb who acts like an authority in the matter. Actual professionals in the field have debunked this nonsense.

We all know Serbs push this theory because their Cacausus theory is on part with tinfoil hat wearing folk, and they are trying desperately to remove Albanian origins from anywhere near or in Kosova.

Y-DNA in middle Bronze Age Dalmatia is most dominant in Albanians(J2b-L283), and it has also been found in middle Bronze Age Albania along with R1b, and V13 in Iron Age Albania(which will be released in the next few years). Albanian Y-Chromosomes were also found in Mokra, Serbian Bronze Age.

Your attempts to remove Albanians from lands their ancestors occupied for far longer than the existence of a Serbian identity is just comedy at this point.

There are many genetic connection between Albanians and Bulgarians and in R1b, J2b2 and E-V13.

https://www.yfull.com/tree//R-Y37280/

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y126039/

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y80036/

https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-KMS66*

[GalenStark]

Wrong. But you won't admit it anyway. None of these clusters are the most common anywhere compared to others within the general groups.

[MechtoidAfalouHG]

Illyrians weren’t one people there were a couple of Illyrian tribes and who knows where they migrated and what dialect they acquired after Illyria was conquered by Rome.

[Glauk]

Albanian language have more similarities with East Romance languages (Romanian, Aromanian) than with Dalmato-Romance language which was language of romanized Illyrians.

In Albanian culture there exist custom Besa similar as Thracian tribe Bessi (they were never romanized)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Besa_(Albanian_culture)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi

According to Kaplan Burović and Eqrem Çabej Albanians settled in 10th century in Mat region in Albania from Bulgaria.

It's interesting existence of town Burrel in Mat region and Burel valley in western Bulgaria possible original homeland of Albanians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burrel_(town)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burel_Valley



HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Dirdepo]

I believe branch of Albanians have this origiin

[Linebacker]

https://s1.dmcdn.net/v/Q6oD01SuQGq7QSlXA/x1080

[King Niko]

Albanians are amazing people, take this crap down about them

[Novi Pazar]

Albanian language have more similarities with East Romance languages (Romanian, Aromanian) than with Dalmato-Romance language which was language of romanized Illyrians.

In Albanian culture there exist custom Besa similar as Thracian tribe Bessi (they were never romanized)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Besa_(Albanian_culture)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi

According to Kaplan Burović and Eqrem Çabej Albanians settled in 10th century in Mat region in Albania from Bulgaria.

It's interesting existence of town Burrel in Mat region and Burel valley in western Bulgaria possible original homeland of Albanians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burrel_(town)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burel_Valley

What about Baltic language connection to Shqiptarisht? Or the Germanic language through Normans. We can add the Berber origin, you know the nasalised consonants. Armenian connection via Maniakes and to the mirdite who are originally of Caucasus origin (Gheg).

Varda, Albanians are a fusion of many ethnicities into the Serb core.

[Rizza]

There was technically no such thing as ''Eastern Latin'' nor did it mean Eastern Balkans, it also shows some Dalmatian Latin similarities. And it could of mostly been
Albanian into Romanian.

Thracian Bessi were partially Hellenized. Albanian language does not match Thracian/Dacian, see Thracian placenames for this here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_cities_in_Thrace_and_Dacia

See the explanation here:



The strongest evidence, however, comes not from the meaning of the proper names (which is always open to doubt) but from their structure. Most Illyrian names are composed of a single unit; many Thracian ones are made of two units joined together. Several Thracian place-names end in -para, for example, which is thought to mean 'ford', or -diza, which is thought to mean 'fortress'. Thus in the territory of the Bessi, a well-known Thracian tribe, we have the town of Bessapara, 'ford of the Bessi'. The structure here is the same as in many European languages: thus the 'town of Peter' can be called Peterborough, Petrograd, Petersburg, Pierreville, and so on. But the crucial fact is that this structure is impossible in Albanian, which can only say 'Qytet i Pjetrit', not 'Pjeterqytet'. If para were the Albanian for 'ford', then the place-name would have to be 'Para e Besseve'; this might be reduced in time to something like 'Parabessa', but it could never become 'Bessapara'. And what is at stake here is not some superficial feature of the language, which might easily change over time, but a profound structural principle. This is one of the strongest available arguments to show that Albanian cannot have developed out of Thracian





Several Thracian samples so far belong to typical R-Z93 , totally foreign Y-DNA in Albanian populations.

[Rizza]

Albanian language have more similarities with East Romance languages (Romanian, Aromanian) than with Dalmato-Romance language which was language of romanized Illyrians.

In Albanian culture there exist custom Besa similar as Thracian tribe Bessi (they were never romanized)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Besa_(Albanian_culture)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bessi

According to Kaplan Burović and Eqrem Çabej Albanians settled in 10th century in Mat region in Albania from Bulgaria.

It's interesting existence of town Burrel in Mat region and Burel valley in western Bulgaria possible original homeland of Albanians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burrel_(town)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burel_Valley

Something that is impossible.

Gheg-Tosk split occurred before Slavic migrations around 300-600 AD. In order for a dialect split to occur it requires a large amount of speakers of the language.

Fortson 2010:



The dialectal split into Gheg and Tosk happened sometime after the region become Christianized in the fourth century AD; Christian Latin loanwords show Tosk rhotacism, such as Tosk murgu "monk" (Geg mungu) from Lat. monachus."



Eric Hamp 1963:



The isogloss is clear in all dialects I have studied, which embrace nearly all types possible. It must be relatively old, that is, dating back into the post-Roman first millennium. As a guess, it seems possible that this isogloss reflects a spread of the speech area, after the settlement of the Albanians in roughly their present location, so that the speech area straddled the Jireček Line.



Bessi were Greek influenced:








From a linguistic point of view it emerges that the Thracian-Bessian hypothesis of the origin of Albanian should be rejected, since only very little comparative linguistic material is available (the Thracian is attested only marginally, while the Bessian is completely unknown), but at the same time the individual phonetic history of Albanian and Thracian clearly indicates a very different sound development that cannot be considered as the result of one language. Furthermore, the Christian vocabulary of Albanian is mainly Latin, which speaks against the construct of a "Bessian church language".[35] The elite of the Bessi tribe was gradually Hellenized.[36][37] Low level of borrowings from Greek in the Albanian language is a further argument against the identification of Albanian with the Bessi.[38] Also the dialectal division of the Albanian-speaking area in the Early Middle Ages contradicts the alleged migration of Albanians in the hinterland of Dyrrhachium in the first decades of the 9th century AD, especially because the dialectal division of a linguistic space is in general a result of a number of linguistic phenomena occurring during a considerable span of time and requires a very large number of natural speakers.[39]

[Rizza]

There was ''Inland Latin'' which developed into Vlach/Romanian/Aromanian and Dalmatian Latin which developed in Coastal areas.



But if Illyrian survived as Albanian, it did so only by means of physical contraction, withdrawal and isolation, which naturally would have taken place in mountain terrain. This is why the purest element of Albanian vocabulary refers to mountains, high-altitude plants and shepherding: the point is not that the proto-Albanians had never lived any other sort of life, but that the only ones who survived as Albanian-speakers did so precisely because that was the sort of isolated and independent life they led, probably for several centuries. The Illyrians who lived on the coastal plains were Romanized, like the ones on the Dalmatian coast and indeed in most areas of Yugoslavia. By the time the Slavs began arriving in the sixth century, there were only scattered pockets of speakers of the old 'barbarian' languages left anywhere in the Balkans, and all of them were in mountainous regions. [54]

Of these, the only population considered important enough to be mentioned by name in early written sources was the Thracian tribe of the Bessi, who lived in the western and southern mountains of Bulgaria. We know that their version of the Thracian language was still being spoken in the second half of the sixth century, and we also know that they had been converted to Christianity: the most striking piece of evidence refers to monks speaking 'Bessan', as well as Latin and other languages, in a monastery on Mount Sinai in the 560s. [55] Until very recently, this was treated by most scholars as just an intriguing oddity, a last lingering survival which must have been extinguished before long. However, a dazzling new piece of research and speculative reconstruction by the German scholar Gottfried Schramm has proposed that these Thracian Bessi were none other than the real ancestors of the Albanians.

According to Schramm, the Bessi must have moved out of their western Bulgarian homeland and into the northern Albanian region in the early ninth century, probably to escape the persecution of Christians by the still pagan Bulgar khans. [56] The early conversion of the Bessi to Christianity is indeed, in Schramm's view, the key to the entire question of how and why Albanian survived as a language. We know that the Bessi were converted by an enterprising bishop, Nicetas, in the late fourth century, and from the writings of a friend of Nicetas who celebrated this event we also know that he learned their language and taught them to practise their Christianity in it - in other words, that Bessan was used as a liturgical language. (The evidence of the Bessan-speaking monks supports this point.) Nicetas, whose own mother-tongue was Latin, may also have translated parts of the Bible; the obvious model - or competition - that he must have had in mind was the work of a heretical bishop, Ulfilas, who was using the Germanic Gothic language for liturgy and Bible-translation among the nearby population of Goths in northern Bulgaria. And, as comparison with other linguistic survivals (such as Armenian or Coptic) shows, nothing helps a language to survive quite so much as its use from a very early stage in a kind of national church. [57]

One thing is quite certain: the Albanians did acquire their Christianity from a Latin-speaking teacher or teachers. The Albanian language contains much Latin-derived vocabulary anyway, having obviously absorbed words from nearby Romans or Romanized barbarians from the second century bc onwards; but the Latin element is especially rich in the area of Christian belief and Christian practice. Thus we have meshe (mass), from missa; ipeshk (bishop), from episcopus; ungjill (gospel), from evangelium; mrekull (miracle), from miraculum; and a great number of other words, extending far into the vocabulary of psychology, morality and even the natural world (such as qiell, meaning heaven or sky, from caelum). [58]

Many of the words that would need to be put on such a list, in fact, are not special ecclesiastical terms, for which a non-Christian population would have no equivalent of its own; they are simple words such as 'spirit', 'sin', 'pray*, 'holy', and so on, for which most languages, even in pre-Christian times, have their own vocabulary. When other early evangelizers translated the Bible or the liturgy into Armenian, or Gothic, or Anglo-Saxon, they used local words for these things - that, indeed, is what is implied by the whole idea of translation. Why should Nicetas, translating into proto-Albanian, have simply transferred huge quantities of Latin words? Schramm notes the oddity of this in passing, and suggests unconvincingly that there must have been some special cultural reasons. [59] But the oddity is more overwhelming than he admits. For example, even the word for a flock, as used in Christian discourse, was taken from the Latin (grigje, from grex) - of all the things in the world, the one for which a shepherding population must surely have had its own word already. [60]

The solution to this puzzle is blindingly simple. These elements of Latin vocabulary have undergone exactly the same sorts of sound-changes, compressions and erosions as all the other Latin words which entered the Albanian language over several centuries; and the reason why those words entered the language was that the Albanians were in contact, over a long period, with people who spoke Latin. The existence of large quantities of such Christianity-related Latin vocabulary does not show that someone 'translated' Christian discourse into early Albanian. It shows the precise opposite - namely, that Albanians were for a long time exposed to the conduct of their religion not in translation but in the original Latin.

This can even be demonstrated grammatically. The term for 'Holy Trinity', Shendertat, bears a final 't' and an accent on the last syllable: this shows that it developed from the accusative, sanctam trinitatem, not the nominative, sancta trinitas. That is in fact the normal pattern of development in Romance languages, which gives us, for example, Spanish ciudad from dvitatem (not from civitas), or French mont from montem (not from mons). (There are many other Albanian examples too, such as grigje, mentioned above, which is really from gregem, not grex.) What this phenomenon reflects is a pattern of usage in spoken Latin: these words were heard much more often as the objects in sentences than as the subjects. If Nicetas had been coining new Albanian words out of Latin for the purposes of his translation, he would surely have taken them from the nominative form. These words entered Albanian because Albanians heard them, over and over again, in spoken liturgical Latin.

Schramm's theory fails, therefore; and in so doing it performs a signal service. Thanks to Schramm, the Thracians can now be eliminated from these enquiries. His research into Nicetas's activities does indeed show that the Bessi received their Christianity, so to speak, in translation; this must force us to conclude that the Albanians, who received theirs in the original Latin, cannot be identified with the Bessi. The language of the Bessi must eventually have perished. Since the Bessi were the only Thracian tribe known to have kept their language as late as the sixth century (and Byzantine sources are naturally more detailed on the Thracian areas, which for them were closer to home, than on the Illyrian ones), it is impossible to find any other Thracian candidates. The origins of the Albanians must be sought, therefore, on the Illyrian side of the divide - particularly in the mountains round Kosovo, in the Malesi, and in the tangle of mountains stretching north from there through Montenegro.

The Latin elements in Albanian help to confirm this location. From the fact that so much general vocabulary was absorbed into Albanian from Latin, and so little from Greek, it is clear that the proto-Albanians lived some way to the north of the Latin-Greek linguistic divide. This language frontier ran from the Adriatic coast near Lezha across the middle of Albania, then up to the line of the Sar mountains, curving southwards to take in Latin-speaking Skopje, and then running northwards roughly along the Serbian-Bulgarian border. [61] At the same time, the fact that the proto-Albanians never actually lost their language indicates that they were somewhat isolated from the main areas of Roman settlement - which included the lowlands and the major roads. One influential theory therefore places the early Albanians in the part of northern Albania which (according to archeological evidence and place-names) was the most untouched by Roman influence: the 'Mat' district north-east of Tirana and west of Debar. From there, according to this theory, the early Albanians were able to expand to fill the region bounded by the river Shkumbin, the Black Drin, the united Drin and the coast. [62]

What this theory fails to account for, however, is another key aspect of the Albanian language's connection with Latin: its intimate involvement in the development of the Vlach-Romanian language. Linguists have long been aware that Albanian and Romanian have many features in common, in matters of structure, vocabulary and idiom, and that these must have arisen in two ways. First, the 'substratum' of Romanian (that is, the language spoken by the proto-Romanians before they switched to Latin) must have been similar to Albanian; and secondly, there must have been close contact between Albanians and early Romanian-speakers over a long period, involving a shared pastoral life. (Some key elements of the pastoral vocabulary in Romanian are borrowed from Albanian.) [63] The substratum elements include both structural matters, such as the positioning of the definite article as a suffix on the end of the noun, and various elements of primitive Balkan pre-Latin vocabulary, such as copil ('child' in Romanian) or kopil ('bastard child' in Albanian). [64] If the links between the two languages were only at substratum level, this might not imply any geographical proximity - it would merely show that proto-Albanian was similar to other varieties of Illyrian spoken elsewhere. But the pastoral connections do indicate that Albanians and early Romanians lived for a long time in the same (or at least overlapping) areas.

This has some geographical implications. Late Latin developed in two different forms in the Balkans: a coastal variety, which survived as a distinct language (known as Dalmatian) until the end of the nineteenth century, and the form spoken in the interior, which turned into Romanian and Vlach. [65] From place-names it is clear that the coastal form, spoken also in Shkodra and Durres, penetrated some way into the northern Albanian mountains. [66] There are some traces of this variety of Latin in Albanian, but the Albanian language's links with the inland variety of Balkan Latin are much stronger. This suggests that the centre of gravity ofAlbanian-Vlach symbiosis lay a little further to the east. [67]

When and how did that symbiosis take place? Presumably the Latin-speaking proto-Romanians came to pastoralism later than the early Albanians. If they had been doing it for as long as the Albanians, and in similar areas, they would - just like the Albanians - have escaped Latinization altogether. Some historians have decided that the proto-Romanians must have been Latin-speaking city-dwellers, who somehow extricated themselves from their towns in the early Slav centuries and became long-distance travellers or shepherds instead; but this seems inherently implausible. [68] (Had they come from the towns, their Latin would surely have been closer to standard Latin in its structure, too.) There is in fact enough Latin agricultural vocabulary in Romanian -words for sowing, ploughing, harrowing, and so on - to show that they were farming in Roman times. [69] The shift towards pastoralism was probably quite gradual. One particular factor that may have helped to promote it was the practice of horse-breeding, which was, or at least became, a Vlach speciality: the medieval records are full of Vlach muleteers and Vlachs leading caravans of pack-horses. [70] Such an occupation requires contact with towns (where the trade is), and may be combined with some farming in the towns' vicinity; but it also involves a form of stock-breeding, which could have given the early Vlachs an entree into the higher-altitude world of Albanian flocks and herds.

The main area of the Balkan interior where a Latin-speaking population may have continued, in both towns and country, after the Slav invasion, has already been mentioned: it included the upper Morava valley, northern Macedonia, and the whole of Kosovo. It is, therefore, in the uplands of the Kosovo area (particularly, but not only, on the western side, including parts of Montenegro) that this Albanian-Vlach symbiosis probably developed. [71] All the evidence comes together at this point. What it suggests is that the Kosovo region, together with at least part of northern Albania, was the crucial focus of two distinct but interlinked ethnic histories: the survival of the Albanians, and the emergence of the Romanians and Vlachs. One large group of Vlachs seems to have broken away and moved southwards by the ninth or tenth century; the proto-Romanians stayed in contact with Albanians significantly longer, before drifting north-eastwards, and crossing the Danube in the twelfth century. [72]

Having reached these conclusions, it may be possible, finally, to draw some further implications from them that point back to a much earlier period of Kosovo's history. The point is a very simple one. If Albanian-speakers were able to live in this area without losing their language during the period from the sixth century to the twelfth, is there any reason to think that they could not have been there in the previous six centuries or more? The Roman province of Dardania contained some Roman towns and several large estates, but it was far from being utterly and homogeneously Romanized: frequent Roman references to Dardanian bandits and robbers, and the presence of many forts and watch-towers, suggest that it was never completely under control. [73] References to Dardanian cheese, a famous and widely exported product, also testify to a large shepherding population. [74] And if the shepherds in the hills were speaking proto-Albanian, then perhaps that is what the ordinary Dardanians had spoken in the valleys too, before the Romans came. This is more a speculation than a conclusion; and it is not meant to exclude other areas in the Albanian (or Montenegrin) mountains further to the west, given that 'Dardania' was, essentially, a tribal division, not a linguistic one. Once again it must be emphasized that such ancient history can have no implications for modern politics. Nevertheless, the idea that the Illyrian Dardanians were ancestors of the Albanians may be of some sentimental interest to Kosovo Albanians today.


http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/nm/kosovo.html




By some Dalmatian is considered apparently a sub group or a bridge between Italian and Romanian .

[khanx34]

albanians are eastern balkanite thiefer gypsies
they are real balkanians

[Pepa]

Genetic show we originated from western and central balkan from small group of illirians in mati and dardania

[Baca]

Genetic show we originated from western and central balkan from small group of illirians in mati and dardania

The E-V13 didn't come from Illyrians but from Thracians. Dardanians had Thracian influence + Illyrian/Delmato-Pannonian:


A special problem is posed by the anthroponymy of the Dardanian territory. Some of the native names recorded there belong to the Illyrian (Monunius, Etuta, Epicadus, Scemlaedus), some others belong to the Delmato-Pannonian system (Andia, Anna, Dasius, Plannius). In eastern Dardania the native names are predominantly Thracian. It seems that in the west of Dardania an originally Illyrian anthroponymy was superseded by a Delmato-Pannonian stratum

https://archive.org/details/AncientLanguagesOfTheBalkans/mode/2up?q=dardania


Also the Albanian E-V13 didn't come from Bulgaria. They don't even belong to the same branch as the Albanian one. The J-L283 is from Illyrians and some of the R1b I think.... At least the J-L283 is the same branch as the Illyrian. And also R-PF7562/63 was among the Illyrian samples which is found in Albos. The R-Z2103 is most likely from Illyrians or some related population. Albanians are a mix of different tribes. There could be some Roman mediated lineages too. Albanian language probably originated in the South-Central Balkans: https://preview.redd.it/the-original-home-of-proto-albanian-according-to-joachim-v0-vuhcvmbnzwd81.jpg?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&8be7c42c





For the 4th century CE:



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e4/Proto-Albanian%2C_4th_century.png/977px-Proto-Albanian%2C_4th_century.png?20211101013311



Closest language to Albanian is considered Messapic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapic_language

[Pepa]

The E-V13 didn't come from Illyrians but from Thracians. Dardanians had Thracian influence + Illyrian/Delmato-Pannonian:



https://archive.org/details/AncientLanguagesOfTheBalkans/mode/2up?q=dardania


Also the Albanian E-V13 didn't come from Bulgaria. They don't even belong to the same branch as the Albanian one. The J-L283 is from Illyrians and some of the R1b I think.... At least the J-L283 is the same branch as the Illyrian. And also R-PF7562/63 was among the Illyrian samples which is found in Albos. The R-Z2103 is most likely from Illyrians or some related population. Albanians are a mix of different tribes. There could be some Roman mediated lineages too. Albanian language probably originated in the South-Central Balkans: https://preview.redd.it/the-original-home-of-proto-albanian-according-to-joachim-v0-vuhcvmbnzwd81.jpg?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&8be7c42c





For the 4th century CE:



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e4/Proto-Albanian%2C_4th_century.png/977px-Proto-Albanian%2C_4th_century.png?20211101013311



Closest language to Albanian is considered Messapic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapic_language

thats bullshit, e-v13 is illyrian too was found in croatia neolithic

"On the other hand, the finding of a large number of E-V13 in bones from ancient Moesia and Dardania, as well as from Croatia to Moldavia in a Scythian individual of the 4th-2nd century BC, and the age of about 2500-3500 years of connections of the Balkan lines of E-V13 with those further north, show that by the end of the Bronze Age or the Iron Age, the haplogroup E-V13 must have been present among the known peoples of the ancient Balkans, such as the Dardanians and the tribes other Illyrians, Dacians, Thracians, etc."

[Baca]

thats bullshit, e-v13 is illyrian too was found in croatia neolithic

"On the other hand, the finding of a large number of E-V13 in bones from ancient Moesia and Dardania, as well as from Croatia to Moldavia in a Scythian individual of the 4th-2nd century BC, and the age of about 2500-3500 years of connections of the Balkan lines of E-V13 with those further north, show that by the end of the Bronze Age or the Iron Age, the haplogroup E-V13 must have been present among the known peoples of the ancient Balkans, such as the Dardanians and the tribes other Illyrians, Dacians, Thracians, etc."

E-V13 was completely absent among the Illyrians in Albania and Montenegro so how exactly is it bullshit ? Actually what you quoted is bullshit. None of the IA/BA samples on the adriatic coast have E-V13. They are mostly J-L283 and R1b.

Only explanation is that E-V13 was more present among the inland Illyrian tribes or a Thracian-Illyrian hyrid. In the area of Nish and Shkup and Serbia etc there were also Thracians and other Paleo-Balkan people. Even Vlachs have significant Illyrian lineages btw , they don't have more E-V13 than Albos. The difference in % could be bottle necks or founder effects. There are also linguistic arguments that put Albanian in Dardania during Roman era and not just in modern Albania.


One of the medieval samples from Albania still plots with Illyrians btw or with the samples from Macedonia and Albania but the sample is not available on the Davidski spreadsheet but shows even an Illyrian continuity there possibly.

[Baca]

J-Z638 was a major branch among Illyrians and which is where a lot of the Albanian J-L283 falls under https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z638/
It actually looks like there were Illyrian movements into the British Isles and Syria during the Roman period.

[Baca]

So basically closest language to Albanian is Messapic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapic_language
Which actually rules out a east Balkan origin as supposedly
claimed by the OP considering Messapic were from the West-Central Balkans.
Eastern Latin was also spoken in the Central Balkans, many linguists actually put Romanian in the Central Balkans
in what is today Serbia-Kosovo area.

The Messapic samples found so far belong to Y-DNA J-L283,
R-CTS1450 and R-PF7563 and some other Paleo-Balkan I2 which
connects them with Albanian speakers too.

Another argument that shows Albanian could of never come from the
east Balkans are scriptures of Thracian and placenames
which do not match Albanian. Thracian placenames were also
composed of two words joined together such as para, dava, deva
etc wich means fort, village, town etc but wich means nothing
in Albanian nor does such a structure happen in Albanian



The strongest evidence, however, comes not from the meaning of the proper names (which is always open to doubt) but from their structure. Most Illyrian names are composed of a single unit; many Thracian ones are made of two units joined together. Several Thracian place-names end in -para, for example, which is thought to mean 'ford', or -diza, which is thought to mean 'fortress'. Thus in the territory of the Bessi, a well-known Thracian tribe, we have the town of Bessapara, 'ford of the Bessi'. The structure here is the same as in many European languages: thus the 'town of Peter' can be called Peterborough, Petrograd, Petersburg, Pierreville, and so on. But the crucial fact is that this structure is impossible in Albanian, which can only say 'Qytet i Pjetrit', not 'Pjeterqytet'. If para were the Albanian for 'ford', then the place-name would have to be 'Para e Besseve'; this might be reduced in time to something like 'Parabessa', but it could never become 'Bessapara'. And what is at stake here is not some superficial feature of the language, which might easily change over time, but a profound structural principle. This is one of the strongest available arguments to show that Albanian cannot have developed out of Thracian.

And in any case, it is increasingly apparent that the whole satem/centum classification system does not correspond to the fundamental distinguishing features of the Indo-European languages: it may be the linguists' equivalent of one of those classifications of mammals by eighteenth-century biologists, which modern scientists have had to discard. [46] Another technical (and much more speculative) argument for identifying early Albanian with Thracian was put forward by the Bulgarian linguist Georgiev, who divided Thracian into two languages, one north-western, the other south-eastern, and argued on the basis of consonantal changes that Albanian must have come from the north-western one. But his arguments (at least in relation to the supposed Albanian connection) have been thoroughly dismantled by other scholars.

http://www.kroraina.com/thrac_lang/thrac_8.html

https://archive.org/details/kosovoshorthisto0000malc_m3s3

[Pepa]

E-V13 was completely absent among the Illyrians in Albania and Montenegro so how exactly is it bullshit ? Actually what you quoted is bullshit. None of the IA/BA samples on the adriatic coast have E-V13. They are mostly J-L283 and R1b.

Only explanation is that E-V13 was more present among the inland Illyrian tribes or a Thracian-Illyrian hyrid. In the area of Nish and Shkup and Serbia etc there were also Thracians and other Paleo-Balkan people. Even Vlachs have significant Illyrian lineages btw , they don't have more E-V13 than Albos. The difference in % could be bottle necks or founder effects. There are also linguistic arguments that put Albanian in Dardania during Roman era and not just in modern Albania.


One of the medieval samples from Albania still plots with Illyrians btw or with the samples from Macedonia and Albania but the sample is not available on the Davidski spreadsheet but shows even an Illyrian continuity there possibly.

wdym what i quoted is bullshit it comes from the rrenjet dna project. i refuse to believe illyrians on the coast were almost exclusively R1b and j2b, we just havent found the E-V13 ones yet.

[MandM]

...

[MandM]

Here is the topic, very interesting, but I belive here on page 10 there is a diskussion about E-V 13 and were it could Come from, and how rrwnjet is not relising the newst sampels to its followers and thinks like that

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/neolithic-refuge-and-continuity-in-transylvania.45010/page-10

[Baca]

https://i.imgur.com/luTM5wV.png

[Baca]

The IMG I posted above of the placename on the adriatic coast Lissus > Lezhe and Naissos > Nish developed the same way through Albanian sound changes. There are no such sound developments in the eastern Balkans or placenames. The placename in Macedonia Scupi > Shkupi also developed through Albanian.
In fact, Eastern Latin speakers/Vlachs are believed to of originated in the central Balkans in the Serbia-Kosovo area where they served as a border zone between the early Serbs and Bulgarians and not the eastern Balkans. Bulgarian and Serb speakers did not come into contact with each other until much later which is why South Slavic dialects developed different, Macedonian-Bulgarian developed different from the Serbo-Croat.

[MandM]

You know that E-V13 is a Daco-Thracian haplogroup and sub groups of R1b and J2b are illyrian, majority of ancient E-V13 were found on East Balkan, even if 1 or 2 EV-13 were found on the West side of the balkans it is Esselte explaind like merceneries, trade, slave, i can only assume that you are a E-V13 and you are fighten with teeth and claws so you can belong to the people who lives in illiricum. But you are puttning no real scientific paper, only wiki sights, just so you can live convince your self that you are right, at the moment absolut everything says that E-V13 is Daco-Thracian, untill they find a shit load of E-V13 that are older then the ones they have found in central and East Balkan its not illyrian, i am not doping this to fight with you or to piss you of, but facts are facts, this does not mean you are not Albanian or not paleobalkan, it just means that the ones with E-V-13 dont have illyrian ancestors

[Varda]

You know that E-V13 is a Daco-Thracian haplogroup and sub groups of R1b and J2b are illyrian, majority of ancient E-V13 were found on East Balkan, even if 1 or 2 EV-13 were found on the West side of the balkans it is Esselte explaind like merceneries, trade, slave, i can only assume that you are a E-V13 and you are fighten with teeth and claws so you can belong to the people who lives in illiricum. But you are puttning no real scientific paper, only wiki sights, just so you can live convince your self that you are right, at the moment absolut everything says that E-V13 is Daco-Thracian, untill they find a shit load of E-V13 that are older then the ones they have found in central and East Balkan its not illyrian, i am not doping this to fight with you or to piss you of, but facts are facts, this does not mean you are not Albanian or not paleobalkan, it just means that the ones with E-V-13 dont have illyrian ancestors

There is no any ancient E-V13 sample from western Balkans from Illyrian period (roughly from 1500 to 200 BC), and number of tested samples from that period/region is not small
The oldest E-V13 sample from western Balkans is from Zadar from 1st century AD which is Roman period. That man obviously had non-Illyrian paternal line.

[Baca]

Dardania was an Eastern Latin speaking area and that's where Albanian or proto-Albanian originated most likely. In Dardania / Moesia area. The area of Nish and Scupi was said to of had a Thracian element too. Dardanians, whom were an Illyrian tribe or at least considered as such by many ancient authors, were in contact with Daco-Thracian tribes and as such absorbed such elements I believe. Central Balkan samples will probably more similar to the samples in IA Macedonia and match Albanian autosomal DNA more possibly instead of just the samples in modern Albania. It is also interesting to note the samples in Bulgaria plot extremely South-East and overlap with Anatolians so there was an ancient Anatolian element in the Balkans already since the antique + some that came during the Roman era.


With that being said, all Balkan people are mixed to some degree with eachother. Many Aromanians and Romanians became Serbs over time. And many Montenigrin tribes used to be Albo.

[Dardanos]

Joachim Matzinger believes that the homeland of albanians is Nish-Shtip-Shar triangle, and most of modern albanologs belive in this theory beside those with VIC ending surname

[Pepa]

You know that E-V13 is a Daco-Thracian haplogroup and sub groups of R1b and J2b are illyrian, majority of ancient E-V13 were found on East Balkan, even if 1 or 2 EV-13 were found on the West side of the balkans it is Esselte explaind like merceneries, trade, slave, i can only assume that you are a E-V13 and you are fighten with teeth and claws so you can belong to the people who lives in illiricum. But you are puttning no real scientific paper, only wiki sights, just so you can live convince your self that you are right, at the moment absolut everything says that E-V13 is Daco-Thracian, untill they find a shit load of E-V13 that are older then the ones they have found in central and East Balkan its not illyrian, i am not doping this to fight with you or to piss you of, but facts are facts, this does not mean you are not Albanian or not paleobalkan, it just means that the ones with E-V-13 dont have illyrian ancestors

e-v13 is pelasgian not thracian or dacian

[Baca]

You know that E-V13 is a Daco-Thracian haplogroup and sub groups of R1b and J2b are illyrian, majority of ancient E-V13 were found on East Balkan, even if 1 or 2 EV-13 were found on the West side of the balkans it is Esselte explaind like merceneries, trade, slave, i can only assume that you are a E-V13 and you are fighten with teeth and claws so you can belong to the people who lives in illiricum. But you are puttning no real scientific paper, only wiki sights, just so you can live convince your self that you are right, at the moment absolut everything says that E-V13 is Daco-Thracian, untill they find a shit load of E-V13 that are older then the ones they have found in central and East Balkan its not illyrian, i am not doping this to fight with you or to piss you of, but facts are facts, this does not mean you are not Albanian or not paleobalkan, it just means that the ones with E-V-13 dont have illyrian ancestors

I agree and I don't see what is the problem with it to be honest nor do I get this obsession with only Illyrians. I like Dacians/Thracians too. Really interesting people. I see you are E-V13 too. Cheers :D I think Albanian language has Dacian/Thracian influence. Dardani probably had Thracian influence or were in contact with Daco-Thracian tribes. Triballi were another Thracian tribe

[Baca]

The Yugoslav (I believe) scholar Baric regarded Albanian as a Thracian dialect.

[Baca]

Dardani and Daco-Thracians = BAD ASS. Nish and Scupi area definitely had Thracians at one point. Thracian tribe Triballi lived just north of the Dardani.

[Pepa]

I agree and I don't see what is the problem with it to be honest nor do I get this obsession with only Illyrians. I like Dacians/Thracians too. Really interesting people. I see you are E-V13 too. Cheers :D I think Albanian language has Dacian/Thracian influence. Dardani probably had Thracian influence or were in contact with Daco-Thracian tribes. Triballi were another Thracian tribe

its pelasgian not thracian

[MandM]

its pelasgian not thracian

Would you be kind and maby link a site to were we can read about this or a paper? Because i have never heard its original pelasgian, all evidence at the moment shows Daco-Thracian, so were do you get Pelasgian, did8nt even think they know so much about them

[Baca]

Dardania had E-V13:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Dardanian_Kingdom_%28late_3rd_century_BC%29.png/800px-Dardanian_Kingdom_%28late_3rd_century_BC%29.png




In fact some ancient writers described their towns Nish and Scupi as Thracian and some sources describe the Dardani as Moesians. Although most classified them as Illyrians.

[Baca]

Would you be kind and maby link a site to were we can read about this or a paper? Because i have never heard its original pelasgian, all evidence at the moment shows Daco-Thracian, so were do you get Pelasgian, did8nt even think they know so much about them

There is basically a theory that it was absorbed by the incoming Proto-Thracians/Dacians from the steppes that mixed with the indigenous people and the indigenous Y-DNA and autosomal DNA became more common or persisted during the Early Iron Age and onwards. This is why the samples in Bulgaria plot extremely south. They have much less steppe.

But we will see what ancient DNA says eventually to find out everything we can about E-V13. The paper is from a Bulgarian I think there was a Bulgarian forum where some archaeologist or something stated that, I am not sure. They claim they found E-V13 before the Indo European migrations during the Chalcolithic period. So they claim E-V13 was in the Balkans before proto-Thracians/Dacians.

[Baca]

If such a theory turns out to be true this would mean E-V13 was present in the Balkans since the Neolithic or Chalcolithic and got absorbed into different groups eventually. However, among the Illyrians on the adriatic coast or close to the coast it was absent as they had only J-L283 and R1b and some other.

Maybe we will see some in the Central Balkans eventually and Romania. In the area of Moesi maybe too

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Map_of_the_roman_province_of_Moesia_%28250%29.jpg/1280px-Map_of_the_roman_province_of_Moesia_%28250%29.jpg

[MandM]

Dardania had E-V13:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Dardanian_Kingdom_%28late_3rd_century_BC%29.png/800px-Dardanian_Kingdom_%28late_3rd_century_BC%29.png




In fact some ancient writers described their towns Nish and Scupi as Thracian and some sources describe the Dardani as Moesians. Although most classified them as Illyrians.

But the maps says it all, Dardania were in between Thracians and Illyrians, so E-13 is as far Thracian Haplogroup and J2 and R1b subgroups are illyrian, The pelasgian hypothesis is at the monment just that a hypothesis, i can understand many Balkan people have been thought that there peoples ancesters were this and that and they all want to be affiliated with the same group, so they can feel that they belong to one and other, but we cant take our personal feelings as facts, or a random guy on the internet say we found 1 sample of these haplogroup here that most mean that i was right, have so see the bigger pic, if 99% SO FAR is found in one area then we have to assume that its were it came from, simpely put, i understand many Albanians are E-V13 and they to day live were illyrians lived and have been thoghut that they are illyrians, and it can be hard to reset that programming, but the theory and looks like a stong one shows that does who have E-V13 have a Daco-Thracian origins, same is for all balkan people are you a Romanian with a j2b subgroup you are probably not Daco-Thracian but illyrian or what ever.

[Baca]

But the maps says it all, Dardania were in between Thracians and Illyrians, so E-13 is as far Thracian Haplogroup and J2 and R1b subgroups are illyrian, The pelasgian hypothesis is at the monment just that a hypothesis, i can understand many Balkan people have been thought that there peoples ancesters were this and that and they all want to be affiliated with the same group, so they can feel that they belong to one and other, but we cant take our personal feelings as facts, or a random guy on the internet say we found 1 sample of these haplogroup here that most mean that i was right, have so see the bigger pic, if 99% SO FAR is found in one area then we have to assume that its were it came from, simpely put, i understand many Albanians are E-V13 and they to day live were illyrians lived and have been thoghut that they are illyrians, and it can be hard to reset that programming, but the theory and looks like a stong one shows that does who have E-V13 have a Daco-Thracian origins, same is for all balkan people are you a Romanian with a j2b subgroup you are probably not Daco-Thracian but illyrian or what ever.

Historically Albanians did not only live where Illyrians lived but also where Thracians/Dacians lived. Used to be Albanians all the way up in Nish until their expulsion and placenames show an Albanian presence there since the medieval period and many scholars argue the placenames of Dardania show Albanian development. Even Baric, who was a Serb, admitted this Naissus > Nish, Scupi > Shkup. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrik_Bari%C4%87 , North-Macedonia had Thracians too.

Eastern Kosovo - South-Eastern Serbia was most likely a Thracian territory too. Thracians and Illyrians lived next to each other and mixed with each other.

Albanians are a mix of different Balkan tribes but the Albanian language most likely originated in the Central Balkans so more like a Thracian-Illyrian mix is what the proto-Albanians were in Moesia-Dardania area.

Seems weird to base your identity on only one side , we inherit Y-DNA from both sides. My fathers lineage is J2b2 while my mothers lineage are E-V13. I think we can claim both Illyrians and Thracians. This is better than just being Illyrian.
Many authors used to call Albanian Thrako-Illyrians too

[Baca]

So instead of just Illyrian we can now claim both, even better.

The writer Wadham Peacock called Albanians as descendants of Thracian and Illyrian tribes or Thrako-Illyrians:


In reality, the Albanians, or Shkypetars, as they are properly called, represent the original owners of the peninsula, for the Serbs did not cross the Danube until about 550 A.D., nor the Bulgars till 679 A.D., when the Shkypetars had enjoyed over eleven hundred years' possession of the land, enlivened by petty tribal fights, battles with or under the Macedonian kings, and struggles with Rome. In every town and district which the Slavs can claim by right of conquest under some nebulous and transitory Empire, the Albanians can oppose the title of original ownership of the soil from ages when neither history nor the Slavs were known in the Balkans. The Romans, unlike most of the invaders who came after them, were administrators, and a province was usually the better for their rule.

The Thrako-Illyrian tribes, now represented by the Shkypetars or Albanians, were, however, not seriously disturbed by the Roman governors and colonists, or, rather, they were neglected and allowed to lapse into a state of lethargy from the turbulent sort of civilisation to which their own kings had raised them. The Romans policed, but did not open up the country.

http://www.albanianhistory.net/1913_Peacock/index.html

So yeah he was pretty right. You can find similarities with both. The tribes in Albania-Montenegro contributed to Albanians too.



Btw, Romanians don't have much J2b2 or even E-V13 neither do most South Slavs really.

[Baca]

Historically Albanians did not only live where Illyrians lived but also where Thracians/Dacians lived. Used to be Albanians all the way up in Nish until their expulsion and placenames show an Albanian presence there since the medieval period and many scholars argue the placenames of Dardania show Albanian development. Even Baric, who was a Serb, admitted this Naissus > Nish, Scupi > Shkup. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henrik_Bari%C4%87 , North-Macedonia had Thracians too.



Also the ancient writers referred to those Dardanian towns as inhabited by Thracians:



The Dardanians, who are said by Nicholas Damascenus, Strabo, Appian and others to be Illyrians, were regarded by Dio Cassius as being Moesians. And Stephanus says that their towns of Naissus [Nish] and Skupi [Skopje] were Thracian. The Triballi who are almost always called Thracians, are regarded as Illyrians by Aristophanes, Livy and Stephanus.

http://www.albanianhistory.net/1774_Thunmann/index.html

And these towns and areas have been historically inhabited by Albanians prior to their expulsion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Albanians_(1877%E2%80%931878)

[Baca]

Also what is today Croatia was inhabite by Italic tribes next to Illyrians and later came Celtic tribes. They influenced the tribes there which is why those samples from Croatia plot where today Iberians are. The actual Illyrian profile was more like where today North Italians / Tuscans are or somewhere around there. So the Balkans was a mix even back then kind of. Also taking females from neighboring tribes changed autosomal DNA etc.

But historically Albanians have mainly identified with Illyrians. The Dardanians were considered Illyrians by most sources despite they had Thracian input . I guess it's a matter of preference. Really. I like both and am happy that both sides were part of my ancestors.
We are ancient Balkan people.

[Baca]

You mentioned Dardanians being located between Thracians and Illyrians. You do understand they were considered by Strabo as one of the three strongest Illyrian people ? So they were essentially Illyrians with a Thracian influence. In Croatia there were also Italic tribes which were not Illyrian and influenced Illyrians there and later came Celtic tribes as I mentioned. Dardanians were part of the Illyrian world but also related to Thracians/Dacians, how could they of not been influenced by neighboring Dacian/Thracian tribes when they lived that close ?

[MandM]

Well you cant claim both beeing Albanian in origin, but you can claim that you have them as ancestors, in the end time will tell, but as it looks now Albanians with E-V13 cant really claim that they are illyrians, at best there cousins :)

[Baca]

Illyrians weren't a people who only lived on the Adriatic coast. Even Triballi, a Thracian tribe in Eastern Serbia, were by some authors confused for Illyrians:


But often, the ancient writers regarded smaller peoples attributed to the Thracians as Illyrians, and vice versa. The Dardanians, who are said by Nicholas Damascenus, Strabo, Appian and others to be Illyrians, were regarded by Dio Cassius as being Moesians. And Stephanus says that their towns of Naissus [Nish] and Skupi [Skopje] were Thracian. The Triballi who are almost always called Thracians, are regarded as Illyrians by Aristophanes, Livy and Stephanus. The Istrians and the Daorsi, who were most likely Illyrians, are called Thracians by others.

1774
Johann Thunmann:
On the History and Language
of the Albanians and Vlachs


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/Triballi_territory.jpg/800px-Triballi_territory.jpg

[Baca]

In Medieval Albania there is a J2b2 sample of a medieval ethnic Albanian found that still plots like the Iron Age which shows a strong Iron Age continuity there or indicates as such.

[Varda]

In my high school in Belgrade was one guy (student) with surname Tribl and typical Serbian name. I associatted his surname with Tribali until he said it is of German origin. His paternal great-grandfather was German from Frankufurt area, not Danube Swabian/Volksdeutsche.

[Baca]

Ok but I don't understand what is the obsession with these Illyrians that lived on the adriatic coast ? I mean they got occupied and Romanized. The main Albo j2b2+r1b might not of even come from the tribes there. I personally don't like the coast and prefer inland, hills, nature etc but one guy is telling me my J2b2 most likely came from the tribes there in North-Central Albania but I really hope not. While my E-V13 he is saying came from Dardania-Moesia area. I mean there were various tribes, could of come literally from any tribe inland or whatever or a Thracian-Illyrian mix.

Anyway, I will reply to some of the messages here later. Gotta go now.

[Baca]

Modern Albos have the highest % of Illyrian Y-DNA of any Balkan ethnicity too, while also having the most E-V13.
Albos also happen to have lived and live in areas inhabited by both Thracians/Dacians and Illyrians. I think it's more about reprogramming ourselves to accept both as our ancestors rather than just one. Which I have already have done but I noticed many South Slavs seem to insist Albos have anything but Illyrian...... Weird..... Albos have been taught only Illyrians lived in these lands, no other people. It's very easy to change our mindset when considering we have origin from both and they inhabited the entire Balkans. It was certainly very easy for me.

[Baca]

The Central Balkans-Moesia-Dardania is where Thracians and Illyrians met actually and mingled:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Dardania_kingdom.png/800px-Dardania_kingdom.png

[Baca]

Brnjica Culture:



The Brnjica cultural group was a Late Bronze Age cultural manifestation in what was to become Dardania, closely connected to the Balkan-Danubian complex.[1][4][3] It dates between the 14th and 10th/9th centuries BCE.[1] In Yugoslavian historiography, starting from Milutin Garašanin, the Brnjica culture was interpreted as the "Daco-Moesian" and non-"Illyrian" linguistic component of the later Dardani,[4][3] an Iron Age Palaeo-Balkan group appearing as an Illyrian people in ancient literary tradition.[1]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brnjica_culture

[Baca]

You can read more here: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/brnjica-culture-kosovo-south-serbia-macedonia-archaeological-source-of-dardanians.40420/
About Brnjica culture

The central Balkans is where different cultures met.

https://i.imgur.com/fogur6E.png

[Baca]

And some of these tribes in north-west Balkans were most likely not Illyrian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnians , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histri
They were possilbly Venetic tribes or influenced by them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti , Other tribes were inluenced too . Then you had Celtic tribes that came too in the north of the Balkans.
So it's not like the adriatic coast etc was some kind of compact Illyrian territory or the northern Balkans. Actually that was also where different cultures eventually met and influenced each other.

In fact the name for Illyrian proper was used for the tribes in Albania-Montenegro area: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrii_proprie_dicti

That's why the samples in Croatia plot so West. Also trade through the adriatic brought Italic tribes and Illyrian tribes in contact .
There was Celtic-Illyrian contact and Thracian-Illyrian contact etc etc.

[Baca]

its pelasgian not thracian

Thracians lived right next to Illyrians. Albanians are both. Both were our ancestors.
Dardania was a Thraco-Illyrian contact zone. See the description of Dardanians by some authors:


The Illyrians and Thracians had always been major peoples in Europe. But did they have the same origin or did they stem from different peoples? None of the ancient writers ever asserted that the two peoples had the same origin or that the Illyrians and Thracians were as close to one another as the Illyrians and Dalmatae, or the Thracians and the Getae. But often, the ancient writers regarded smaller peoples attributed to the Thracians as Illyrians, and vice versa. The Dardanians, who are said by Nicholas Damascenus, Strabo, Appian and others to be Illyrians, were regarded by Dio Cassius as being Moesians. And Stephanus says that their towns of Naissus [Nish] and Skupi [Skopje] were Thracian. The Triballi who are almost always called Thracians, are regarded as Illyrians by Aristophanes, Livy and Stephanus. The Istrians and the Daorsi, who were most likely Illyrians, are called Thracians by others. The Tralli for their part, who were Thracians are referred to by other authors as Illyrians. Peoples who once lived in Asia Minor and who belonged to the Phrygian race, such as the Phrygians or Bryges among the Taulanti, the Paeones who called themselves Teucrian colonies, and the Paphlagonian Henetae on the Adriatic are regarded as Illyrians, whereas the Moesians who were regarded as being Teucri, the Thyni, the aforementioned Bryges etc. are counted as Thracians. I have come across settlements in Illyria that have the same names as some in Thrace. The Thracians and the Illyrians are presented as having the same customs. Yet, despite all this, I can find no reason to conclude that the two peoples had a common origin. It is now regarded as likely that the two peoples were related to one another, that they had mixed with one another and where the ancient Greek writers regarded them as two distinct peoples, this is repeated more out of habit than due to any substantial difference in origin.


http://www.albanianhistory.net/1774_Thunmann/index.html



We come from both....... Just ignore these butthurt South Slav trolls. We are descendants of both and they are just butthurt. This is even the vibe that you get from them. I think some I2 in Albanians came from Illyrians too that was found among Iapygians and Illyrians in Croatia.

[Baca]

Another thing which I realized and please just hear me out, because you people cannot label an Y-DNA as belonging to an ethnic group from the start just because it is present there today. I mean look at all Roman era samples, E-V13 was one of the most common lineages everywhere. One guy on another forum is claiming a lot of E-V13 in the Balkans today came from more north of the Balkans this would mean a lot of E-V13 was not even part of proto-Albanian but got absorbed from refugees that fled Slavs, Avars etc, there were many refugees. Therefor I'd be careful labelling something as Albanian or everything as Albanian. Actually all linguists put Albanian in South-Central or West-Central Balkans and proto-Albanian linegaes are considered to be at least J2b2, R-Z2103 and R-PF7563 and maybe some E-V13 was part of it, some E-V13 got absorbed later etc. So I would be careful. E-V13 was also one of the most common lineages in Roman Croatia.


Personally looking at my Y-DNA it seems to of originated from Illyrians on the West Balkans. On my mothers side E-V13 like I said it either came from the Moesia area or Dardania area or somewhere there. I'd be careful with all these labels. Only ancient DNA will tell us more.


Some of the E-V13 where this guy is saying came from makes absolutely no sense.

[Pepa]

Modern Albos have the highest % of Illyrian Y-DNA of any Balkan ethnicity too, while also having the most E-V13.
Albos also happen to have lived and live in areas inhabited by both Thracians/Dacians and Illyrians. I think it's more about reprogramming ourselves to accept both as our ancestors rather than just one. Which I have already have done but I noticed many South Slavs seem to insist Albos have anything but Illyrian...... Weird..... Albos have been taught only Illyrians lived in these lands, no other people. It's very easy to change our mindset when considering we have origin from both and they inhabited the entire Balkans. It was certainly very easy for me.
Ev13 is illyrian too the parent of it was found in Neolithic croatia ,is older than r1b in ballkan

[Red0]

Ev13 is illyrian too the parent of it was found in Neolithic croatia ,is older than r1b in ballkan

This Serv is just butthurt because modern Albos clearly got significant Illyrian input, more than any other Balkan people too. It's funny how someone so incredibly dishonest pretends as if Albos are some kind of mainly E-V13 population which is not even remotely the case and they are also founder effects. I've seen posts where these dudes claim ''Albos are more Thracian than Illyrian'' and apparently a population from Bulgaria by counting modern frequencies which are largely founder effects and which isn't neccessarily even dominated by E-V13 nor does all the E-V13 in modern Albos have the same history. So not sure what on earth this dude is larping on about ''I cannot claim'' , even if you don't have an Illyrian Y-DNA wouldn't it be enough if you came from a population that does and that are linguistically connected to such people and many other aspects ? Of course I can see what this dishonest butthurt Serv is trying to do. And they keep playing this game and pretending as if this is the case in every forum. These people are delusional. Even more funny to compare it to Romanians who don't even have the same amount of J2b2 or E-V13 considering they got significant Slavic input and other input. How on earth can someone claim to be Illyrian because they got R1b or J2b2 when they don't even come from a population with such significant input, unlike modern Albos, nor linguistically connected to such a population ?

All linguists agree Albanian is related to Messapic and last time I checked Messapic was most likely related to Illyrian or to proto-Illyrian.

[Red0]

Albos have the highest amount of Illyrian related Y-DNA in the Balkans but according to this Serv , Albos who are E-V13 cannot claim to be Illyrian although they come from a population with obvious significant Illyrian input more than any other Balkan population... Amazing logic retarded Serv. All facts speak the E-V13 was absorbed later and when it was absorbed it must of certainly been located somewhere in the West/Central Balkans.

[Red0]

This retarded Serv is obsessed with the E-V13 in modern Albos, a fucking Y-DNA that was found all over the Roman Empire and exists everywhere in the Balkans and pretends as if modern Albos don't have significant Illyrian input which they in fact do (J-L283, R-Z2103, R-PF7563 and some others most definitely came from Illyrians). In fact nothing suggests the E-V13 is pre-proto-Albanian and it's origin in the Balkans is still up for debate for sure. Also Thracian tribes lived close to Illyrian tribes such as Triballi and Maedi lived close to the Illyrian tribes such as Dardani, Autariatae etc. This little Serb and this other Serv got their panties wet over some E-V13, an Y-DNA absorbed by the actual Albanians in the Balkans.

If some Albo who is E-V13 wants to claim to be Illyrian who are you tell other wise you mentally retarded Serv when Albos already come from a population with such significant ancestry ? It's obvious you are incredibly butthurt you mentally retarded Serv.

[Pepa]

This retarded Serv is obsessed with the E-V13 in modern Albos, a fucking Y-DNA that was found all over the Roman Empire and exists everywhere in the Balkans and pretends as if modern Albos don't have significant Illyrian input which they in fact do (J-L283, R-Z2103, R-PF7563 and some others most definitely came from Illyrians). In fact nothing suggests the E-V13 is pre-proto-Albanian and it's origin in the Balkans is still up for debate for sure. Also Thracian tribes lived close to Illyrian tribes such as Triballi and Maedi lived close to the Illyrian tribes such as Dardani, Autariatae etc. This little Serb and this other Serv got their panties wet over some E-V13, an Y-DNA absorbed by the actual Albanians in the Balkans.

If some Albo who is E-V13 wants to claim to be Illyrian who are you tell other wise you mentally retarded Serv when Albos already come from a population with such significant ancestry ? It's obvious you are incredibly butthurt you mentally retarded Serv.

proto illyrians carried ev13 and j2b but these ydna was noble among them so few had it which explaisn why it hasnt been found yet in illyrian sites because it was noble and then they grew while the peasants in proto illyrians were r1b

[Far_away]

Nobody is obsessed with you, whole world is laughing at you while you jack off on "illyrians" and "thracians" you are poorest in whole europe.
Number of Albanians on Kosovo is going down like crazy also in Albania. There is no jobs and no future but somehow you act like you are some main characters in show and act like whole world revolves around you. Albanians are beating each other up for job in Police that is only "good" and salary is just 400-500 euros.
Now Turkey donated some money to you. You live from donations but hey its ok lets go on forum and write how much illyrian you are lmao.
half of you do not even live on balkan and would not even care to came if war would happen, but you are the loudest. Comedy.

[Pepa]

Nobody is obsessed with you, whole world is laughing at you while you jack off on "illyrians" and "thracians" you are poorest in whole europe.
Number of Albanians on Kosovo is going down like crazy also in Albania. There is no jobs and no future but somehow you act like you are some main characters in show and act like whole world revolves around you. Albanians are beating each other up for job in Police that is only "good" and salary is just 400-500 euros.
Now Turkey donated some money to you. You live from donations but hey its ok lets go on forum and write how much illyrian you are lmao.
half of you do not even live on balkan and would not even care to came if war would happen, but you are the loudest. Comedy.

serbia in 2050 will be wasteland

[Novi Pazar]

I saw in another topic that R1b (Euro-Asian) and J (Semitic) is Illyrian? Have l missed something. Please explain guys.

[Red0]

Most of the E-V13 is a founder effect , this represents 6% of the lineages https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC11457/

[Pepa]

Most of the E-V13 is a founder effect , this represents 6% of the lineages https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC11457/

Its illyrian

[Novi Pazar]

serbia in 2050 will be wasteland

Pepa, you do know NATO was responsible for the depleted uranium in KiM.

[Pepa]

Pepa, you do know NATO was responsible for the depleted uranium in KiM.

Yea but u started it after u blamed us for putting a bottle up ur ass

[Novi Pazar]

^ okay then lol

[Live The Magic]

I saw in another topic that R1b (Euro-Asian) and J (Semitic) is Illyrian? Have l missed something. Please explain guys.

Excavations in Velika Gruda, Jazinka and some other sites shown that Illyrians found there mostly belonged to R1b and J2b. I think there was another E sample, but not E-V13. Maybe I'm wrong.

[Red0]

There is no such thing as ''Eastern Balkanite origin'' of a proto-Albanian population, this is just some fringe theory that belongs to the same theories that claim proto-Albanian expansion from central Albania from a small non-Illyrian population. Albanian is related to Messapic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapic_language , some of the main lineages are from an Illyrian/Messapic like source too. There is evidence from inscriptions etc. that an Illyrian-like population survived in the West-Central Balkans that's also where all non-Slavic names survived such as Lissus (Lezhe), Nish, Shkup, Ulqin, Mat etc. And as far as I'm concerned towns such as Nish and Shkupi had Thracians during Roman era.

[Pepa]

There is no such thing as ''Eastern Balkanite origin'' of a proto-Albanian population, this is just some fringe theory that belongs to the same theories that claim proto-Albanian expansion from central Albania from a small non-Illyrian population. Albanian is related to Messapic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapic_language , some of the main lineages are from an Illyrian/Messapic like source too. There is evidence from inscriptions etc. that an Illyrian-like population survived in the West-Central Balkans that's also where all non-Slavic names survived such as Lissus (Lezhe), Nish, Shkup, Ulqin, Mat etc. And as far as I'm concerned towns such as Nish and Shkupi had Thracians during Roman era.
Am I illyrian

[Red0]

Its illyrian

The Berisha-Sopi E-V13 is certainly not of Illyrian origin but what was found with a Thracian profile at Viminacium and in modern Albos it is nothing but a recent founder effect and nothing to do with proto-Albanian just like most of the E-V13 has nothing to do with proto-Albanian or pre-proto-Albanian. Just some Y-DNA that got absorbed into an Albanian population which most likely occurred in the West-Central Balkans, some got absorbed earlier in pre-Roman period or Roman period and some later. The percentage you see today are founder effects or have gone through different bottle neck or founder effects, that includes all Y-DNA. Just like E-V13 got absorbed into Greeks. Albanian as a language is by far closer to Messapic/Illyrian than Thracian/Dacian which is a language considered unrelated to Albanian. Repeating constantly that an Y-DNA is supposed to be Illyrian doesn't make it Illyrian just like these Servs repeating it's supposed to be proto-Albanian doesn't make it proto-Albanian. And I certainly don't give much of a rats a** about E-V13 as certainly nothing suggests it is *the proto-Albanian marker* . Anyone who thinks the origin of the Albanian language can be traced entirely through this Y-DNA is delusional.

[Varda]

Am I illyrian

You are not Illyrian, he is Illyrian (J2b2-M241) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luka_Nižetić

He origin is from Dalmatian islan Brač and he carry Illyrian Y DNA (number 19) https://i.ibb.co/61CSJLK/IMG-20220803-
201115.jpg


https://youtu.be/HFACt-Rxbvo


https://youtu.be/EjhjcwQa2Vw

[Varda]

^^
Paternal ancestors of Luka Nižetić before they are slavized were probably members of Dalmatian speaking community https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language

[Pepa]

^^
Paternal ancestors of Luka Nižetić before they are slavized were probably members of albanian speaking community https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatian_language

[Pepa]

The Berisha-Sopi E-V13 is certainly not of Illyrian origin but what was found with a Thracian profile at Viminacium and in modern Albos it is nothing but a recent founder effect and nothing to do with proto-Albanian just like most of the E-V13 has nothing to do with proto-Albanian or pre-proto-Albanian. Just some Y-DNA that got absorbed into an Albanian population which most likely occurred in the West-Central Balkans, some got absorbed earlier in pre-Roman period or Roman period and some later. The percentage you see today are founder effects or have gone through different bottle neck or founder effects, that includes all Y-DNA. Just like E-V13 got absorbed into Greeks. Albanian as a language is by far closer to Messapic/Illyrian than Thracian/Dacian which is a language considered unrelated to Albanian. Repeating constantly that an Y-DNA is supposed to be Illyrian doesn't make it Illyrian just like these Servs repeating it's supposed to be proto-Albanian doesn't make it proto-Albanian. And I certainly don't give much of a rats a** about E-V13 as certainly nothing suggests it is *the proto-Albanian marker* . Anyone who thinks the origin of the Albanian language can be traced entirely through this Y-DNA is delusional.

Ev13 is Illyrian bro maybe not all but it def is Illyrian like mine and is an elite HG compared to other.

[Mingle]

Albanian's contact being with Western Romance rather than Eastern Romance would imply a West Balkan origin:


Because the Latin words common to only Romanian and Albanian are significantly less than those that are common to only Albanian and Western Romance, Mihaescu argues that the Albanian language evolved in a region with much greater contact to Western Romance regions than to Romanian-speaking regions, and located this region in present-day Albania, Kosovo and western North Macedonia, spanning east to Bitola and Pristina.[45]

[Varda]

Albanian's contact being with Western Romance rather than Eastern Romance would imply a West Balkan origin:

The strongest autosomal component in Albos is Eastern Balkanite/Thracian https://imgur.com/RNSYEpG

[Mingle]

The strongest autosomal component in Albos is Eastern Balkanite/Thracian https://imgur.com/RNSYEpG
But how would you explain the Romance words in Albanian being West Romance rather than East Romance?

[Varda]

But how would you explain the Romance words in Albanian being West Romance rather than East Romance?

First time in my life i heard now for that. Earlier i found that Albanian language show more similarities with Romanian and Aromanian than with Dalmatian which was language of romanized Illyrians. It sounds very unreal that Albanian is closer to Spanish, French or Italian than to Romanian/Aromanian. Albanian together with Romanian and Aromanian is even part of Balkan linguistic comnunity known as Balkan sprachbund
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sprachbund (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sprachbund)

E-V13 is clearly Thracian Y DNA which doesn't existed in Illyrians, archaeogenetic say that. Illyrians were very dominant J2b2-M241 and also had some R1b.
E-V13 is the strongest Y DNA in Albos and they have tons of mathes inside of that haplo with Bulgarians which fall mostly in the late antique period and early middle age, same goes for large part of Albo R1b. J2b2-M241 in Albos might be from Romance people of present day northern Albania who were of Illyrian origin and who were assimilatted by early Albanias which came somewhere from central or eastern Balkans around 8-9th century.

[Varda]

Illyrians were not autosomally close to Albanians. All Illyrians samples from Dalmatia and Lika autosomally tested are the closest to Spaniards and Portuguese out of modern populations.

[Varda]

The Berisha-Sopi E-V13 is certainly not of Illyrian origin but what was found with a Thracian profile at Viminacium and in modern Albos it is nothing but a recent founder effect and nothing to do with proto-Albanian just like most of the E-V13 has nothing to do with proto-Albanian or pre-proto-Albanian. Just some Y-DNA that got absorbed into an Albanian population which most likely occurred in the West-Central Balkans, some got absorbed earlier in pre-Roman period or Roman period and some later. The percentage you see today are founder effects or have gone through different bottle neck or founder effects, that includes all Y-DNA. Just like E-V13 got absorbed into Greeks. Albanian as a language is by far closer to Messapic/Illyrian than Thracian/Dacian which is a language considered unrelated to Albanian. Repeating constantly that an Y-DNA is supposed to be Illyrian doesn't make it Illyrian just like these Servs repeating it's supposed to be proto-Albanian doesn't make it proto-Albanian. And I certainly don't give much of a rats a** about E-V13 as certainly nothing suggests it is *the proto-Albanian marker* . Anyone who thinks the origin of the Albanian language can be traced entirely through this Y-DNA is delusional.

Do you suggest that Albos got E-V13 due to assimilation/albanization of Vlachs?

[Mingle]

First time in my life i heard now for that. Earlier i found that Albanian language show more similarities with Romanian and Aromanian than with Dalmatian which was language of romanized Illyrians. It sounds very unreal that Albanian is closer to Spanish, French or Italian than to Romanian/Aromanian. Albanian together with Romanian and Aromanian is even part of Balkan linguistic comnunity known as Balkan sprachbund
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sprachbund (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sprachbund)

E-V13 is clearly Thracian Y DNA which doesn't existed in Illyrians, archaeogenetic say that. Illyrians were very dominant J2b2-M241 and also had some R1b.
E-V13 is the strongest Y DNA in Albos and they have tons of mathes inside of that haplo with Bulgarians which fall mostly in the late antique period and early middle age, same goes for large part of Albo R1b. J2b2-M241 in Albos might be from Romance people of present day northern Albania who were of Illyrian origin and who were assimilatted by early Albanias which came somewhere from central or eastern Balkans around 8-9th century.

About East Romance and Albanian:

A common feature between Albanian and Eastern Romance (Aromanian and Old Romanian) is a distinction between simple r (tap r - ɾ) and intense r (trill r - r).[25] Other features dated to the breakup of Romance languages that are shared between Albanian and Romanian include the merger of long /eː/ and short /i/, but not long /oː/ and short /u/ (most Romance languages either merged both or neither), and the replacement of /k/ in clusters /ks/ and /kt/ with a labial (p in Romanian, f in Albanian: see luctare > Albanian luftoj, Romanian lupta; Latin coxa > Albanian kofshë, Romanian coapsă). In the latter case, variation in Albanian outcomes has been explained as being the effect of loans entering Albanian at different times.[26]
Again, West Romance and Albanian:

Because the Latin words common to only Romanian and Albanian are significantly less than those that are common to only Albanian and Western Romance, Mihaescu argues that the Albanian language evolved in a region with much greater contact to Western Romance regions than to Romanian-speaking regions, and located this region in present-day Albania, Kosovo and western North Macedonia, spanning east to Bitola and Pristina.[45]

So Mihaescu acknowledges the East Romance-Albanian connection, but he says the West Romance-Albanian connection is much stronger. He says the contact with West Romance happened near the border with East Romance around Albania-Kosovo-NM. So it would be around the region where the West Romance-East Romance border was.

But I didn't see his analysis on it, so maybe he was mistaken about that. Many West Romance words could've been adopted via Western Romance influence in administration rather than neighborly contact (there was stronger Italian influence and Italians don't neighbor Albanians), and at a later date (no time period for it is mentioned). While we have evidence of parallel Romanian and Albanian sound shifts that show clear East Romance influence that came as a result of neighborly contact. I haven't even seen any info on what type of Romance language Western Serbia/B&H/Montenegro spoke before Slavic. So a more detailed analysis on West Romance-Albanian is needed to confirm-deny his statement, specifically related to sound shifts and the age of that contact.

But it's also possible that the West Romance contact predates the East Romance contact. I don't think there's any clear consensus on when Proto-Romanian developed, so this date needs to be analysed too. Italo-Dalmatian was spoken in South Italy and Dalmatia/Istria, so it's not far-fetched that they had contact with early Albanians. But I haven't found info on if Western Serbia/B&H/Montenegro spoke Italo-Dalmatian or Eastern Romance (we just know Eastern Serbia spoke Eastern Romance). Dinaric Romance's classification would clear things up a lot.

This is where the information on the West Romance and Albanian contact is from:
https://archive.org/details/warsofbalkanpeni0000madg/page/146/mode/2up

I think E-V13 could be explained as a founder effect. What about the other clades besides E-V13? Are they Illyrian or Thracian?

[Mingle]

The Berisha-Sopi E-V13 is certainly not of Illyrian origin but what was found with a Thracian profile at Viminacium and in modern Albos it is nothing but a recent founder effect and nothing to do with proto-Albanian just like most of the E-V13 has nothing to do with proto-Albanian or pre-proto-Albanian. Just some Y-DNA that got absorbed into an Albanian population which most likely occurred in the West-Central Balkans, some got absorbed earlier in pre-Roman period or Roman period and some later. The percentage you see today are founder effects or have gone through different bottle neck or founder effects, that includes all Y-DNA. Just like E-V13 got absorbed into Greeks. Albanian as a language is by far closer to Messapic/Illyrian than Thracian/Dacian which is a language considered unrelated to Albanian. Repeating constantly that an Y-DNA is supposed to be Illyrian doesn't make it Illyrian just like these Servs repeating it's supposed to be proto-Albanian doesn't make it proto-Albanian. And I certainly don't give much of a rats a** about E-V13 as certainly nothing suggests it is *the proto-Albanian marker* . Anyone who thinks the origin of the Albanian language can be traced entirely through this Y-DNA is delusional.

What about autosomal DNA?

[Pepa]

First time in my life i heard now for that. Earlier i found that Albanian language show more similarities with Romanian and Aromanian than with Dalmatian which was language of romanized Illyrians. It sounds very unreal that Albanian is closer to Spanish, French or Italian than to Romanian/Aromanian. Albanian together with Romanian and Aromanian is even part of Balkan linguistic comnunity known as Balkan sprachbund
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sprachbund (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_sprachbund)

E-V13 is clearly Thracian Y DNA which doesn't existed in Illyrians, archaeogenetic say that. Illyrians were very dominant J2b2-M241 and also had some R1b.
E-V13 is the strongest Y DNA in Albos and they have tons of mathes inside of that haplo with Bulgarians which fall mostly in the late antique period and early middle age, same goes for large part of Albo R1b. J2b2-M241 in Albos might be from Romance people of present day northern Albania who were of Illyrian origin and who were assimilatted by early Albanias which came somewhere from central or eastern Balkans around 8-9th century. ev13 is vinca

[Mingle]

Peripheral Latinity in Albanian

https://www.academia.edu/1152647/Peripheral_Latinity_in_Albanian

Contains an analysis of Western Romance vs. Eastern Romance influence on Albanian and mentions Latin's impact on Albanian being overrated, interesting discussion is pages 288-290 (Mihaescu's work is mentioned).

[Pepa]

On my mother side I am probably Illyria too R1b z103 maybe pf7563 or j2b l283

[Varda]

About East Romance and Albanian:

Again, West Romance and Albanian:


So Mihaescu acknowledges the East Romance-Albanian connection, but he says the West Romance-Albanian connection is much stronger. He says the contact with West Romance happened near the border with East Romance around Albania-Kosovo-NM. So it would be around the region where the West Romance-East Romance border was.

But I didn't see his analysis on it, so maybe he was mistaken about that. Many West Romance words could've been adopted via Western Romance influence in administration rather than neighborly contact (there was stronger Italian influence and Italians don't neighbor Albanians), and at a later date (no time period for it is mentioned). While we have evidence of parallel Romanian and Albanian sound shifts that show clear East Romance influence that came as a result of neighborly contact. I haven't even seen any info on what type of Romance language Western Serbia/B&H/Montenegro spoke before Slavic. So a more detailed analysis on West Romance-Albanian is needed to confirm-deny his statement, specifically related to sound shifts and the age of that contact.

But it's also possible that the West Romance contact predates the East Romance contact. I don't think there's any clear consensus on when Proto-Romanian developed, so this date needs to be analysed too. Italo-Dalmatian was spoken in South Italy and Dalmatia/Istria, so it's not far-fetched that they had contact with early Albanians. But I haven't found info on if Western Serbia/B&H/Montenegro spoke Italo-Dalmatian or Eastern Romance (we just know Eastern Serbia spoke Eastern Romance). Dinaric Romance's classification would clear things up a lot.

This is where the information on the West Romance and Albanian contact is from:
https://archive.org/details/warsofbalkanpeni0000madg/page/146/mode/2up

I think E-V13 could be explained as a founder effect. What about the other clades besides E-V13? Are they Illyrian or Thracian?

Latin words in Albanian language are of various origin and came to Albanian language in various times: from direct contact with Romans and romanized Balkanites in Roman time, from contact with Latin speaking Balkanites (Vlachs) in the middle age and Ottoman period and assimalation/albanization of that Vlachs, italianisms from educated Arbereshe who came to Albania from Italy in 19th and 20th century to be teachers, professors etc. One thing is sure, Albanian or proto-Albanian language was formed somewhere deep in Balkan far away from sea on high altitude because Albanian is lack of own original words related with sea and it's rich with shepherd and mountain terms. Words in Albanian related with sea and coastal life are borrowed from other languages (Greek, Latin, Turkish, Slavic etc).
Why you ignore genetic evidences and indication about predominantly East Balkan origin of Albos? Your posts looks like agenda of Albanian illyrists. In Albanian intelectual elite from year to year there is less and less those who claim west Balkan/Illyrian origin of Albanians and more and more those which claim central Balkan/Dardanian origin of Albanians.

E-V13 is Moesian-Thracian Y DNA founded in good number of ancient samples from Bulgaria and eastern Serbia including Viminacium. E-V13 was not found in any pre-Roman (aka Illyrian) sample from western Balkans.

[Pepa]

Latin words in Albanian language are of various origin: from direct contact with Romans and romanized Balkanites in Roman time, from contact with Latin speaking Balkanites (Vlachs) in the middle age and Ottoman period and assimalation/albanization of that Vlachs, from educated Arbereshe who came from Italy in 19th and 20th century to be teachers, proffesors etc. One thing is sure, Albanian or proto-Albanians language was formed somewhere deep in Balkan far away from sea on high altitude because Albanian is lack of own original words related with sea and it's rich eith sheperd and mountain terms. Words in Albanian related with sea and coastal life are borrowed from other languages (Greek, Latin, Slavic etc).
Why you ignore genetic evidences and indication about predominantly East Balkan origin of Albos? Your post looks like agenda of Albanian illyrists. In Albanian intelectual elite from yesr to year there is less and less those who claom west Balkan/Illyrian origin og Albanians and more and more those which claim central Balkan/Dardanian origin of Albanians.
E-V13 is Moesian-Thracian Y DNA founded in good number of ancient samples from Bulgaria and eastern Serbian including Viminacium. E-V13 was not found in any pre-Roman (aka Illyrian) sample from western Balkans.

Serb Ur language is made up of Turkish loanwords lmao also dardania s are illyrian

[Varda]

Latin words in Albanian language are of various origin and came to Albanian language in various times: from direct contact with Romans and romanized Balkanites in Roman time, from contact with Latin speaking Balkanites (Vlachs) in the middle age and Ottoman period and assimalation/albanization of that Vlachs, italianisms from educated Arbereshe who came to Albania from Italy in 19th and 20th century to be teachers, professors etc. One thing is sure, Albanian or proto-Albanian language was formed somewhere deep in Balkan far away from sea on high altitude because Albanian is lack of own original words related with sea and it's rich with shepherd and mountain terms. Words in Albanian related with sea and coastal life are borrowed from other languages (Greek, Latin, Turkish, Slavic etc).
Why you ignore genetic evidences and indication about predominantly East Balkan origin of Albos? Your posts looks like agenda of Albanian illyrists. In Albanian intelectual elite from year to year there is less and less those who claim west Balkan/Illyrian origin of Albanians and more and more those which claim central Balkan/Dardanian origin of Albanians.

E-V13 is Moesian-Thracian Y DNA founded in good number of ancient samples from Bulgaria and eastern Serbia including Viminacium. E-V13 was not found in any pre-Roman (aka Illyrian) sample from western Balkans.

Some Latin words of 'Italian' type maybe came to Albanian language via Durres when dinasty Anjou ruled on city in the middle age. Anjou dinasty ruled on Durres 76 years (1272-1284 and 1304-1368). In that time Albanians lived in the hinterland of Durres and for sure had contact with city.

[Mingle]

Latin words in Albanian language are of various origin and came to Albanian language in various times: from direct contact with Romans and romanized Balkanites in Roman time, from contact with Latin speaking Balkanites (Vlachs) in the middle age and Ottoman period and assimalation/albanization of that Vlachs, italianisms from educated Arbereshe who came to Albania from Italy in 19th and 20th century to be teachers, proffesors etc. One thing is sure, Albanian or proto-Albanian language was formed somewhere deep in Balkan far away from sea on high altitude because Albanian is lack of own original words related with sea and it's rich with shepherd and mountain terms. Words in Albanian related with sea and coastal life are borrowed from other languages (Greek, Latin, Turkish, Slavic etc).
Why you ignore genetic evidences and indication about predominantly East Balkan origin of Albos? Your posts looks like agenda of Albanian illyrists. In Albanian intelectual elite from year to year there is less and less those who claim west Balkan/Illyrian origin of Albanians and more and more those which claim central Balkan/Dardanian origin of Albanians.

E-V13 is Moesian-Thracian Y DNA founded in good number of ancient samples from Bulgaria and eastern Serbia including Viminacium. E-V13 was not found in any pre-Roman (aka Illyrian) sample from western Balkans.

I don't have full trust in autosomal DNA calculators, and I haven't looked into the calculators myself. I think you have good points about it, but I don't have much to add to that topic. Regarding the Y-DNA, I was just asking about alternate explanations. I agree E-V13 is not Illyrian, but I don't think it ends the debate. I also asked the other Albanian user for an explanation on Thracian autosomal DNA and their Thracian ancestry in another thread.

Also, if they have Thracian genetics, that doesn't change the fact that we need to explain the linguistic situation as well, which is a topic that interests me more. It doesn't mean I think your genetic explanation is wrong, but I think there's other stuff that also need to be looked at.

And I agree that Albanians didn't originate near the coast, but deep in the Balkans.

And I mentioned alternate explanations for where the West Romance influence could come from. I said it could be Italian influence and that we need evidence of West Romance similarly affecting Albanian sound changes like East Romance. These are points mostly in favor of the Thracian theory.

[hazmatnik]

ev13 is vinca

What is the source of that claim?

[Pepa]

What is the source of that claim?

It’s neolithic and originated western Balkan and central Illyrian and vinca were very similar genetically

[hazmatnik]

It’s neolithic and originated western Balkan and central Illyrian and vinca were very similar genetically

As far as i know from scientific papers, no E-V13 was found at any site related to Vinca culture but mostly G-M201.

[Red0]

The E-V13 in Albanians is no different from the E-V13 in Greeks or in West Balkans Late Antiquity where E-V13 was around 20%-30% , there are some regional differences because it has gone through different founder effects such as the Berisha-Sopi which is a lineage irrelevant for proto-Albanian considering it expanded only in the Late Medieval period yet is 10% of all E-V13 today. Their clade wasn't found at Viminacium but a related branch was found there and has nothing to do with proto-Albanian. There are obvious reasons to why proto-Albanian or pre-proto-Albanian could of never been dominated by any E-V13. There are certain E-V13 that might of been part of proto-Albanian but weren't pre-proto-Albanian. All in all, Albanian is considered related to Messapic and unrelated to Thracian/Dacian which puts proto-Albanian in the West-Central Balkans and not East. This is also based on the development of placenames. E-V13 was present in the West-Central Balkans during Roman era.

[Red0]

Latin words in Albanian language are of various origin and came to Albanian language in various times: from direct contact with Romans and romanized Balkanites in Roman time, from contact with Latin speaking Balkanites (Vlachs) in the middle age and Ottoman period and assimalation/albanization of that Vlachs, italianisms from educated Arbereshe who came to Albania from Italy in 19th and 20th century to be teachers, professors etc. One thing is sure, Albanian or proto-Albanian language was formed somewhere deep in Balkan far away from sea on high altitude because Albanian is lack of own original words related with sea and it's rich with shepherd and mountain terms. Words in Albanian related with sea and coastal life are borrowed from other languages (Greek, Latin, Turkish, Slavic etc).
Why you ignore genetic evidences and indication about predominantly East Balkan origin of Albos? Your posts looks like agenda of Albanian illyrists. In Albanian intelectual elite from year to year there is less and less those who claim west Balkan/Illyrian origin of Albanians and more and more those which claim central Balkan/Dardanian origin of Albanians.

E-V13 is Moesian-Thracian Y DNA founded in good number of ancient samples from Bulgaria and eastern Serbia including Viminacium. E-V13 was not found in any pre-Roman (aka Illyrian) sample from western Balkans.

We have inscription and placenames of Thracian/Dacian and it is considered a language completely unrelated to Albanian while Albanian is considered related to Messapic . Everything points that the proto-Albanian were at least J-L283 and R1b and some I. Even the development of placenames puts proto-Albanian in the West-Central Balkans and not East. The E-V13 is found all across the Balkans and was even absorbed by Greeks and was in West Balkans Late Antiquity around 20%-30% . So it was also absorbed by Albos and has gone through different founder effects such as the Berisha-Sopi . You actually trying to turn E-V13 into *the proto-Albanian* marker is rather nonsensical. Dardani were considered an Illyrian people, their contact with Thracian/Dacian occurred in their eastern territory and in the towns , mostly during the Roman era following a Thracian westwards expansion. That is not to say that some lineages of E-V13 weren't proto-Albanian because some in fact were and have expanded with Albanians for longer than say the Berisha-Sopi E-V13.

[Pepa]

Latin words in Albanian language are of various origin and came to Albanian language in various times: from direct contact with Romans and romanized Balkanites in Roman time, from contact with Latin speaking Balkanites (Vlachs) in the middle age and Ottoman period and assimalation/albanization of that Vlachs, italianisms from educated Arbereshe who came to Albania from Italy in 19th and 20th century to be teachers, professors etc. One thing is sure, Albanian or proto-Albanian language was formed somewhere deep in Balkan far away from sea on high altitude because Albanian is lack of own original words related with sea and it's rich with shepherd and mountain terms. Words in Albanian related with sea and coastal life are borrowed from other languages (Greek, Latin, Turkish, Slavic etc).
Why you ignore genetic evidences and indication about predominantly East Balkan origin of Albos? Your posts looks like agenda of Albanian illyrists. In Albanian intelectual elite from year to year there is less and less those who claim west Balkan/Illyrian origin of Albanians and more and more those which claim central Balkan/Dardanian origin of Albanians.

E-V13 is Moesian-Thracian Y DNA founded in good number of ancient samples from Bulgaria and eastern Serbia including Viminacium. E-V13 was not found in any pre-Roman (aka Illyrian) sample from western Balkans.


"E-V13 made up portion of Illyrians surely but the bulk of it doesn't fit very well into culture which was there in Western Balkans 2000 BC, 1500 BC, 1000 BC etc.
Cetina culture from where PH1246 and ultimately all V13 may stem disappeared and its remnants (some PH1246 one finds) today were assimilated by primarily J-L283 heavy culture.


Some other V13's that almost certainly descend of Dardanians should be connected with a pre-Illyrian Dardanian Moesian substrate that was mentioned by many authors. Likely J-PH1602's and J-Z631 moved westwards (attested for Glasinac groups) and made up Dardanian Illyrian elite. Dardanian rulers had mostly Illyrian names but heavy presence of Thracian names was noted in Eastern regions. And even in Skopje area.


Albanians also have significant diversity of CTS9320 but this clade may fit better as some Gava culture movement to the South which was attested (so subsequently Illyrian), or might include some former Triballians etc.



Ernekar said:
Maybe some associate V13 with eastern balkans, but that doesn't change that it has been found in the western balkans ancient DNA too. And that western balkans has very high V13 diversity.
It was all over the balkans during the bronze age and was probably involved in the dynamics associated with paleobalkanic IE languages(of course alongside other haplogroups like L283, Z2103 and PF7562)



Still both under Z5017 and Z5018 basal diversity is in the East (now with less Easterners than Albanians deep tested). I mentioned the clear option that is Vatin culture and its Western variant which was proto-Illyrian. Clades like Z5018 especially with newer finds fit fully into the Vatin and related cultures."

[Dardanos]

About East Romance and Albanian:

Again, West Romance and Albanian:


So Mihaescu acknowledges the East Romance-Albanian connection, but he says the West Romance-Albanian connection is much stronger. He says the contact with West Romance happened near the border with East Romance around Albania-Kosovo-NM. So it would be around the region where the West Romance-East Romance border was.

But I didn't see his analysis on it, so maybe he was mistaken about that. Many West Romance words could've been adopted via Western Romance influence in administration rather than neighborly contact (there was stronger Italian influence and Italians don't neighbor Albanians), and at a later date (no time period for it is mentioned). While we have evidence of parallel Romanian and Albanian sound shifts that show clear East Romance influence that came as a result of neighborly contact. I haven't even seen any info on what type of Romance language Western Serbia/B&H/Montenegro spoke before Slavic. So a more detailed analysis on West Romance-Albanian is needed to confirm-deny his statement, specifically related to sound shifts and the age of that contact.

But it's also possible that the West Romance contact predates the East Romance contact. I don't think there's any clear consensus on when Proto-Romanian developed, so this date needs to be analysed too. Italo-Dalmatian was spoken in South Italy and Dalmatia/Istria, so it's not far-fetched that they had contact with early Albanians. But I haven't found info on if Western Serbia/B&H/Montenegro spoke Italo-Dalmatian or Eastern Romance (we just know Eastern Serbia spoke Eastern Romance). Dinaric Romance's classification would clear things up a lot.

This is where the information on the West Romance and Albanian contact is from:
https://archive.org/details/warsofbalkanpeni0000madg/page/146/mode/2up

I think E-V13 could be explained as a founder effect. What about the other clades besides E-V13? Are they Illyrian or Thracian?

Varda is a manipulator and isn't sincere

There are a couple of very important points that he doesn't tell

- medieval Albanians were much more northern shifted to modern Albanians and much closer to illyrian samples

-even in modern times Albanians out of all south slavic populations are closer to north and south illyrian samples

- E-v13 % in modern Albanians is founder effect, and is much lower in arbreshë italians, j2b and r1b sublcades are much more older and we have different sublcades, r1b clades found in albanians have albanians as progonators and not bulgarians as he claims

-medieval Albanian had less slavic admixture as modern Albanians, islam brought mixing and slavic admixture in albanians and with it anatolian admixture that slavs took as they mixed with different romanised populations j2b clade found in serbs is of yemenite or syrian origin

[Live The Magic]

ev13 is vinca

Vinca and Starcevo almost exclusively G2a with some H2. E-V13 came in Iron Age or even Roman period to the western Balkans. Its more foreign to early European farmers even than some exotic haplogroups such as haplogroup T. Its surely related to some population of Levant that was later spawned by Natufians and embraced by farmers of Bronze age Anatolia.

[hazmatnik]

- E-v13 % in modern Albanians is founder effect, and is much lower in arbreshë italians

Not sure about this:


The two most frequent HGs in ARB_CAL (E-V13, 16.9% I-M223, 14.2%) do not match those found in ARB_SIC (I-P215, 20.5% E-M123, 18.2%). By contrast, the third most frequent HG (R-SRY10831.2) is found at comparatively high frequencies in both Calabrian (9.43%) and Sicilian (11.35%) Arbereshe

Source: Shared language, diverging genetic histories: high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variability in Calabrian and Sicilian Arbereshe

[Dardanos]

Not sure about this:



Source: Shared language, diverging genetic histories: high-resolution analysis of Y-chromosome variability in Calabrian and Sicilian Arbereshe

What did i say wrong?

Ev13 is procentualy lower in arbresh then modern Albanians?

[hazmatnik]

What did i say wrong?

Ev13 is procentualy lower in arbresh then modern Albanians?

It still tops 1st place among Calabrian Arbereshes unlike other top two HGs among Albanians.

[Dardanos]

It still tops 1st place among Calabrian Arbereshes unlike other top two HGs among Albanians.

But i didn't claim that, i said that it's in lower % then in modern Albanians as a product of founder effect

30-40% is still different then 15-20 % ?

[Pepa]

Vinca and Starcevo almost exclusively G2a with some H2. E-V13 came in Iron Age or even Roman period to the western Balkans. Its more foreign to early European farmers even than some exotic haplogroups such as haplogroup T. Its surely related to some population of Levant that was later spawned by Natufians and embraced by farmers of Bronze age Anatolia.

ev13 came in bronze age not IA, it originated in balkans not out of balkan


"E-V13 made up portion of Illyrians surely but the bulk of it doesn't fit very well into culture which was there in Western Balkans 2000 BC, 1500 BC, 1000 BC etc.
Cetina culture from where PH1246 and ultimately all V13 may stem disappeared and its remnants (some PH1246 one finds) today were assimilated by primarily J-L283 heavy culture.


Some other V13's that almost certainly descend of Dardanians should be connected with a pre-Illyrian Dardanian Moesian substrate that was mentioned by many authors. Likely J-PH1602's and J-Z631 moved westwards (attested for Glasinac groups) and made up Dardanian Illyrian elite. Dardanian rulers had mostly Illyrian names but heavy presence of Thracian names was noted in Eastern regions. And even in Skopje area.


Albanians also have significant diversity of CTS9320 but this clade may fit better as some Gava culture movement to the South which was attested (so subsequently Illyrian), or might include some former Triballians etc.



Ernekar said:
Maybe some associate V13 with eastern balkans, but that doesn't change that it has been found in the western balkans ancient DNA too. And that western balkans has very high V13 diversity.
It was all over the balkans during the bronze age and was probably involved in the dynamics associated with paleobalkanic IE languages(of course alongside other haplogroups like L283, Z2103 and PF7562)



Still both under Z5017 and Z5018 basal diversity is in the East (now with less Easterners than Albanians deep tested). I mentioned the clear option that is Vatin culture and its Western variant which was proto-Illyrian. Clades like Z5018 especially with newer finds fit fully into the Vatin and related cultures."

[hazmatnik]

But i didn't claim that, i said that it's in lower % then in modern Albanians as a product of founder effect

30-40% is still different then 15-20 % ?

Yes but can't be used as a proof of something since other two major Albanian HGs are even lower among Arbereshes, using deduction we could make some pretty strange conclusion based just on that.

[Live The Magic]

ev13 came in bronze age not IA, it originated in balkans not out of balkan


"E-V13 made up portion of Illyrians surely but the bulk of it doesn't fit very well into culture which was there in Western Balkans 2000 BC, 1500 BC, 1000 BC etc.
Cetina culture from where PH1246 and ultimately all V13 may stem disappeared and its remnants (some PH1246 one finds) today were assimilated by primarily J-L283 heavy culture.


Some other V13's that almost certainly descend of Dardanians should be connected with a pre-Illyrian Dardanian Moesian substrate that was mentioned by many authors. Likely J-PH1602's and J-Z631 moved westwards (attested for Glasinac groups) and made up Dardanian Illyrian elite. Dardanian rulers had mostly Illyrian names but heavy presence of Thracian names was noted in Eastern regions. And even in Skopje area.


Albanians also have significant diversity of CTS9320 but this clade may fit better as some Gava culture movement to the South which was attested (so subsequently Illyrian), or might include some former Triballians etc.



Ernekar said:
Maybe some associate V13 with eastern balkans, but that doesn't change that it has been found in the western balkans ancient DNA too. And that western balkans has very high V13 diversity.
It was all over the balkans during the bronze age and was probably involved in the dynamics associated with paleobalkanic IE languages(of course alongside other haplogroups like L283, Z2103 and PF7562)



Still both under Z5017 and Z5018 basal diversity is in the East (now with less Easterners than Albanians deep tested). I mentioned the clear option that is Vatin culture and its Western variant which was proto-Illyrian. Clades like Z5018 especially with newer finds fit fully into the Vatin and related cultures."

Ok Natufian, believe in whatever you want

[Pepa]

Ok Natufian, believe in whatever you want

Illyrian*

[Red0]

What about autosomal DNA?

Sorry I meant a close branch of the Berisha-Sopi was found at Viminacium not specifically it's subclade.
Autosomally Albanians are close to West-Central Balkan Roman era samples only those samples have less Slavic ( it depends on the individual) . One of the medieval samples from Albania plots like the Iron Age samples from Albania/Macedonia. Some Iron Age/BA samples from Macedonia/Dardania are also close to the Albanian cluster. But autosomally you cannot only use sampels from BA/IA Albania as obviously there is other admixture involved from other areas of the Balkans + Roman era admixture and some Slavic. This again depends on the individual. But I'd say majority of the Albanian ancestry derives from Roman era Balkans, the rest is Slavic and other things that came after.

The E-V13 in modern Albos is nothing surprising as it is within range of the late West-Central Balkan antiquity 20%-30% and is also present in Greeks. But it has gone through founder effects. My take, it was picked up in the West-Central Balkans. The Dardani who were most likely an Illyrian tribe but probably got eventually mixed with Thracian, such as during Roman era, the Albanoi/Taulantii/Abroi who were an Illyrian tribe in todays Albania but were also mentioned in other areas such as in Macedonia in Skopje/Shkupi etc. These are some of the candidates I would pick for Albanian , this is also based on where Albanian was located according to linguists right before the Slavic migrations. Some E-V13 could of come from other areas too and was absorbed into Albanian groups and are founder effects.

[Red0]

Thracian/Dacian or any East Balkan language is actually completely unrelated to Albanian, see here: https://www.kroraina.com/thrac_lang/thrac_8.html , https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_cities_in_Thrace_and_Dacia , one of the biggest evidence I have seen that shows Albanian never came from such a language and Albanian is considered closer to Messapic (West-Central Balkan). If we look at the Balkans these type of placenames only start in the Eastern strip of Dardania where Thracian names are more present such as 'Dardapara' or 'Quemedava' while in Kosovo and the rest of Dardania they are absent. Things seem to point towards a Thracian westward expansion into Dardania during Roman era such as in the towns of Nish and Shkupi where it mingled with the Illyrian one. Albanian could of not come from such a language considering this language survived even up to the Slavic migrations in Bulgaria and such placenames were picked up by the Slavs such as Plovdiv from Thracian Pulpudeva but which does not occur in Albanian.

[Red0]

The main lineages come from Illyrians or West-Central Balkan Bronze Age / Iron Age populations and one can even see these lineages spread with proto-Albanians: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH4679/ , https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/ , https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7563*/ , https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y209555/ . And there are many more.. Which also connects it with Messapic. Actually I wouldn't put proto-Albanian any more east than what is today Nish-Shtip-Shkup area in Dardania-Moesia and was definitely present in Albania-Montenegro during the Roman era before Slavic migrations also. West-Central Balkans is also where all the pre-Slavic names survived too that show Albanian sound developments. Some of the E-V13 has spread with proto-Albanians too and was picked up early but some haven't and are also founder effects. The Berisha-Sopi one which makes today up 10% of E-V13 is a prime example. It only started expanding in the 12th-13th century, see here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC33646/ , TMRCA 650 YBP.

[Pepa]

The main lineages come from Illyrians or West-Central Balkan Bronze Age / Iron Age populations and one can even see these lineages spread with proto-Albanians: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH4679/ , https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2705/ , https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-PF7563*/ , https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y209555/ . And there are many more.. Which also connects it with Messapic. Actually I wouldn't put proto-Albanian any more east than what is today Nish-Shtip-Shkup area in Dardania-Moesia and was definitely present in Albania-Montenegro during the Roman era before Slavic migrations also. West-Central Balkans is also where all the pre-Slavic names survived too that show Albanian sound developments. Some of the E-V13 has spread with proto-Albanians too and was picked up early but some haven't and are also founder effects. The Berisha-Sopi one which makes today up 10% of E-V13 is a prime example. It only started expanding in the 12th-13th century, see here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-FGC33646/ , TMRCA 650 YBP.
The Berisha v13 came from one Illyrian

[Red0]

Sorry I meant a close branch of the Berisha-Sopi was found at Viminacium not specifically it's subclade.
Autosomally Albanians are close to West-Central Balkan Roman era samples only those samples have less Slavic ( it depends on the individual) . One of the medieval samples from Albania plots like the Iron Age samples from Albania/Macedonia. Some Iron Age/BA samples from Macedonia/Dardania are also close to the Albanian cluster. But autosomally you cannot only use sampels from BA/IA Albania as obviously there is other admixture involved from other areas of the Balkans + Roman era admixture and some Slavic. This again depends on the individual. But I'd say majority of the Albanian ancestry derives from Roman era Balkans, the rest is Slavic and other things that came after.

The E-V13 in modern Albos is nothing surprising as it is within range of the late West-Central Balkan antiquity 20%-30% and is also present in Greeks. But it has gone through founder effects. My take, it was picked up in the West-Central Balkans. The Dardani who were most likely an Illyrian tribe but probably got eventually mixed with Thracian, such as during Roman era, the Albanoi/Taulantii/Abroi who were an Illyrian tribe in todays Albania but were also mentioned in other areas such as in Macedonia in Skopje/Shkupi etc. These are some of the candidates I would pick for Albanian , this is also based on where Albanian was located according to linguists right before the Slavic migrations. Some E-V13 could of come from other areas too and was absorbed into Albanian groups and are founder effects.

Here you can see this Y-DNA is also found among Greeks:


Central Greeks (Epirus & Thessaly) (127 samples)
I : 12.6
R1a : 11.8
R1b : 10.2
E1b : 31.5
G2 : 6.3
J2 : 18.1
J1 : 3.9
LT : 3.9
* : 1.6


Southern Greeks (Sterea Hellas & Peloponnese) (264 samples)
I : 12.9
R1a : 10.2
R1b : 20.5
E1b : 25.8
G2 : 3.4
J2 : 19.7
J1 : 2.3
LT : 3.8
* : 1.5


https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/y-dna-haplogroups-of-greeks-by-region-of-origin.26644/

[Red0]

Here is some more evidence that shows proto-Albanian has nothing to do with any east Balkan or Thracian/Dacian, here is a map of Thracian/Dacian placenames:

https://www.kroraina.com/thrac_lang/THR_LANG.gif

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Teritoriul_onomastic_al_elementului_dava_-_Sorin_Olteanu.jpg






Dava, Para, Deva means nothing in Albanian nor do these placenames occur in Albanian lands. Kosovo and part of North Macedonia was Illyrian territory. Thracian territory started in Eastern Serbia where these toponyms appear and where it came in contact with Illyrian. Such a language has nothing to do with Albanian, at least not directly. The research holds that Albanian is related to Messapic which actually puts proto-Albanian closer to an Illyrian people in the West or Central Balkans. E-V13 samples in Bulgaria show no special relationship to the Albanian ones.




Seems a bit nonsensical to try and link Albanian with a language that it clearly has nothing to do with. Albanian certainly did not come from the East Balkans. As for the E-V13, they are also medieval founder effects like any other Y-DNA.

[Red0]

The Berisha v13 came from one Illyrian

Certainly does not matter what it is as it is certainly not proto-Albanian and has nothing to do with proto-Albanian. Started expanding with Albanians only 650 YBP yet makes up 10% of the E-V13 today. And nothing so far points to an Illyrian origin but might of originated close to Illyrian territory or Thracian-Illyrian territory. Every Y-DNA or lineage that exists in Albanians today doesn't have to be Illyrian or proto-Albanian.

[Pepa]

Certainly does not matter what it is as it is certainly not proto-Albanian and has nothing to do with proto-Albanian. Started expanding with Albanians only 650 YBP yet makes up 10% of the E-V13 today. And nothing so far points to an Illyrian origin but might of originated close to Illyrian territory or Thracian-Illyrian territory. Every Y-DNA or lineage that exists in Albanians today doesn't have to be Illyrian or proto-Albanian.
Ev13 is pre proto Illyrian but was pushed from its original land to other part of Balkan by jl283 etc that’s why ev13 ancestors was found in 10000 bc in zemunica cave

[Red0]

Why do you feel the need to repackage baseless theories perpetuated by Serbs?

We're in the age of genetics. This nonsensical stuff holds no water.

It's always a Serb who acts like an authority in the matter. Actual professionals in the field have debunked this nonsense.

We all know Serbs push this theory because their Cacausus theory is on part with tinfoil hat wearing folk, and they are trying desperately to remove Albanian origins from anywhere near or in Kosova.

Y-DNA in middle Bronze Age Dalmatia is most dominant in Albanians(J2b-L283), and it has also been found in middle Bronze Age Albania along with R1b, and V13 in Iron Age Albania(which will be released in the next few years). Albanian Y-Chromosomes were also found in Mokra, Serbian Bronze Age.

Your attempts to remove Albanians from lands their ancestors occupied for far longer than the existence of a Serbian identity is just comedy at this point.

Just look at the posts of these monkeys and how butthurt they are. The main lineages literally come from Illyrians and the Messapic connection puts it with Illyrian. But they pretend as if these don't exist. Only thing one can argue is that some Thracians were absorbed by the proto-Albanians, if the E-V13 was Thracian and has also experienced founder effects, as Thracian as a language has nothing to do with Albanian But these little monkeys actually are trying to turn the actual proto-Albanians into some kind of Thracians. Never in my life seen such butthurt little rat Chetniks that are butthurt over the Illyrian connection. Nothing suggests all the E-V13 was Thracian anyway as we have Illyrian profiles with it and even Greeks have that one.

Espeically this other chetnik that larps about how E-v13 arrived in illyria as slave and trade, like post some fucking evidence you retarded chetnik, as I'm pretty sure Illyrians eventually mixed with their Thracian neighbors and others. So what the fuck do you like care who the proto-Albanians mixed with in the Balkans fucking retarded Chetnik ? Such as incredibly butthurt monkeys to the point I wanna kick their fucking heads, ''I cannot claim'' , like what the fuck are you talking about you mentally retarded Chetnik ?

[Red0]

But the maps says it all, Dardania were in between Thracians and Illyrians, so E-13 is as far Thracian Haplogroup and J2 and R1b subgroups are illyrian, The pelasgian hypothesis is at the monment just that a hypothesis, i can understand many Balkan people have been thought that there peoples ancesters were this and that and they all want to be affiliated with the same group, so they can feel that they belong to one and other, but we cant take our personal feelings as facts, or a random guy on the internet say we found 1 sample of these haplogroup here that most mean that i was right, have so see the bigger pic, if 99% SO FAR is found in one area then we have to assume that its were it came from, simpely put, i understand many Albanians are E-V13 and they to day live were illyrians lived and have been thoghut that they are illyrians, and it can be hard to reset that programming, but the theory and looks like a stong one shows that does who have E-V13 have a Daco-Thracian origins, same is for all balkan people are you a Romanian with a j2b subgroup you are probably not Daco-Thracian but illyrian or what ever.

Sure Chetnik: the main lineages in Albanians are from Illyrians you little Chetnik, so it is not surprising that Albanians live where Illyrians lived and the main lineages are clearly from Illyrians and the languages is connected to Messapic, who were most likely proto-Illyrians. You sure love to talk shit. As for Dardani, they were considered an Illyrian tribe, if they absorbed Thracians I don't see how that is relevant.

The language originated where Illyrians lived. Nish-Shtip was the easternmost expansion which was a Thracian-Illyrian contact zone. Albanian language has nothing to do with any Thracian/Dacian bullshit, if that was the case such toponyms would be present in Albanian lands. The only thing you could argue is that such people were absorbed into Albanians.


The E-V13 is around 20%-30% and is nothing unusual for the West-Balkans of the Roman Era and is also present in Greeks and has experienced founder effects. There are also E-V13 that have been found that are clearly of Illyrian origin in the Central Balkans with Illyrian-like profiles. I can see what you are trying to do here.


The only ''reprogramming'' that needs to be done is for you to shut the fuck up, monkey ass Chetnik and certainly nothing suggests E-V13 was absorbed by Illyrians through ''Slave or Trade''. Stephanus wrote that the towns of the Dardani such as Nish and Shkupi were inhabited by Thracians during Roman era. You talk all kinds of shit retarded Chetnik as nobody is saying proto-Albanians were an isolated people that did not mix or absorb other populations, what bothers me how you are trying to delink it entirely from Illyrian.

[Pepa]

Sure Chetnik: the main lineages in Albanians are from Illyrians you little Chetnik, so it is not surprising that Albanians live where Illyrians lived and the main lineages are clearly from Illyrians and the languages is connected to Messapic, who were most likely proto-Illyrians. You sure love to talk shit. As for Dardani, they were considered an Illyrian tribe, if they absorbed Thracians I don't see how that is relevant.

The language originated where Illyrians lived. Nish-Shtip was the easternmost expansion which was a Thracian-Illyrian contact zone. Albanian language has nothing to do with any Thracian/Dacian bullshit, if that was the case such toponyms would be present in Albanian lands. The only thing you could argue is that such people were absorbed into Albanians.


The E-V13 is around 20%-30% and is nothing unusual for the West-Balkans of the Roman Era and is also present in Greeks and has experienced founder effects. There are also E-V13 that have been found that are clearly of Illyrian origin in the Central Balkans with Illyrian-like profiles. I can see what you are trying to do here.


The only ''reprogramming'' that needs to be done is for you to shut the fuck up, monkey ass Chetnik and certainly nothing suggests E-V13 was absorbed by Illyrians through ''Slave or Trade''. Stephanus wrote that the towns of the Dardani such as Nish and Shkupi were inhabited by Thracians during Roman era. You talk all kinds of shit retarded Chetnik as nobody is saying proto-Albanians were an isolated people that did not mix or absorb other populations, what bothers me how you are trying to delink it entirely from Illyrian.
All ev13 is Illyrian and came from the original cetina culture before jl283 invaded and replaced them

[Mingle]

Varda is a manipulator and isn't sincere

There are a couple of very important points that he doesn't tell

- medieval Albanians were much more northern shifted to modern Albanians and much closer to illyrian samples

-even in modern times Albanians out of all south slavic populations are closer to north and south illyrian samples

- E-v13 % in modern Albanians is founder effect, and is much lower in arbreshë italians, j2b and r1b sublcades are much more older and we have different sublcades, r1b clades found in albanians have albanians as progonators and not bulgarians as he claims

-medieval Albanian had less slavic admixture as modern Albanians, islam brought mixing and slavic admixture in albanians and with it anatolian admixture that slavs took as they mixed with different romanised populations j2b clade found in serbs is of yemenite or syrian origin
Looking at linguistics, the Illyrian origin theory makes much more sense. Red0's post about Thracian toponymy being impossible for Albanian is pretty good. And genetics (Y-DNA) can easily be explained by Albanians having ancestry from both groups. If Albanians originated in the Moesia-Dardania region, then it would be impossible for them to be either 100% Illyrian or 100% Thracian since that's the area where the two ethnic groups bordered each other. It doesn't even make a difference on disputed territorial claims if Albanians are Thracian or Illyrian anyways.

[MandM]

Sure Chetnik: the main lineages in Albanians are from Illyrians you little Chetnik, so it is not surprising that Albanians live where Illyrians lived and the main lineages are clearly from Illyrians and the languages is connected to Messapic, who were most likely proto-Illyrians. You sure love to talk shit. As for Dardani, they were considered an Illyrian tribe, if they absorbed Thracians I don't see how that is relevant.

The language originated where Illyrians lived. Nish-Shtip was the easternmost expansion which was a Thracian-Illyrian contact zone. Albanian language has nothing to do with any Thracian/Dacian bullshit, if that was the case such toponyms would be present in Albanian lands. The only thing you could argue is that such people were absorbed into Albanians.


The E-V13 is around 20%-30% and is nothing unusual for the West-Balkans of the Roman Era and is also present in Greeks and has experienced founder effects. There are also E-V13 that have been found that are clearly of Illyrian origin in the Central Balkans with Illyrian-like profiles. I can see what you are trying to do here.


The only ''reprogramming'' that needs to be done is for you to shut the fuck up, monkey ass Chetnik and certainly nothing suggests E-V13 was absorbed by Illyrians through ''Slave or Trade''. Stephanus wrote that the towns of the Dardani such as Nish and Shkupi were inhabited by Thracians during Roman era. You talk all kinds of shit retarded Chetnik as nobody is saying proto-Albanians were an isolated people that did not mix or absorb other populations, what bothers me how you are trying to delink it entirely from Illyrian.

Is calling me chetnik supposed to anger me? I sense a lot of hatred from you, why? The only thing i am mostly saying is that you and other are station theorys or hypotheses as rock hard fact, when you know they are not. Messapic could be related to Albanian but its not a fact you just want it to be, am not dissgarding it, but there is no evidence, And I dont say Albanians didint mix it is very clear they did, just saying to the Albanians that belive that E-v13 is proto Albanian is at the moment not a fact, but theory suggest its more a Daco-Thracian HG, dont understand why you cry so hard, you act as if a said that Albanians originated from the caucasus, calm damn a bit if you want a discuss theorys and hypotheses we can do that, but you seem more eager to get mad and force to belive what you belive to be right, no need for namn calling or geting mad,

[Red0]

You and this clown of an OP and that Croat ratchet and every other clone in this forum are just butthurt because we clearly are from Illyrians, literally the main lineages are from Illyrians yet its interesting how you're so focused on one single fucking y-dna that makes up 20%-30%, has experienced founder effects, was all over Roman Empire and exists even among Greeks. That Albanians have this Y-DNA is nothing surprising when one looks at Roman Era samples. Linguistically Albanian has nothing to do with any kind of East Balkan or Thracian Dacian bullshit which can even be seen by the Thracian inscriptions and placenames we have that Albanian never came from such a language. Albanian is related to Messapic which puts the actual proto-Albanians in the Western-Central Balkans somewhere. I wouldn't put proto-Albanian anymore east than Dardania-Moesia area and not anymore east than Nish-Shkupi area. It just bothers me how on earth someone can be this dishonest and so biased. As for E-V13, we got profiles of it that are also autosomally close to Illyrians in Himera and Central Balkans. Some might of come from actual Thracian too as nobody is saying Albanians were an isolated people.

[hazmatnik]

yet its interesting how you're so focused on one single fucking y-dna that makes up 20%-30%, has experienced founder effects, was all over Roman Empire and exists even among Greeks.

Its our paternal line dummy, why would we care or focus on other HGs?

[Pepa]

Its our paternal line dummy, why would we care or focus on other HGs?

Hello my Illyrian brother we were the original inhabitants of western Balkan alongside r1b. J2b came later than those 2

[Pepa]

Is calling me chetnik supposed to anger me? I sense a lot of hatred from you, why? The only thing i am mostly saying is that you and other are station theorys or hypotheses as rock hard fact, when you know they are not. Messapic could be related to Albanian but its not a fact you just want it to be, am not dissgarding it, but there is no evidence, And I dont say Albanians didint mix it is very clear they did, just saying to the Albanians that belive that E-v13 is proto Albanian is at the moment not a fact, but theory suggest its more a Daco-Thracian HG, dont understand why you cry so hard, you act as if a said that Albanians originated from the caucasus, calm damn a bit if you want a discuss theorys and hypotheses we can do that, but you seem more eager to get mad and force to belive what you belive to be right, no need for namn calling or geting mad,

E-V13 made up portion of Illyrians surely but the bulk of it doesn't fit very well into culture which was there in Western Balkans 2000 BC, 1500 BC, 1000 BC etc.
Cetina culture from where PH1246 and ultimately all V13 may stem disappeared and its remnants (some PH1246 one finds) today were assimilated by primarily J-L283 heavy culture


Some other V13's that almost certainly descend of Dardanians should be connected with a pre-Illyrian Dardanian Moesian substrate that was mentioned by many authors. Likely J-PH1602's and J-Z631 moved westwards (attested for Glasinac groups) and made up Dardanian Illyrian elite. Dardanian rulers had mostly Illyrian names but heavy presence of Thracian names was noted in Eastern regions. And even in Skopje area.


Albanians also have significant diversity of CTS9320 but this clade may fit better as some Gava culture movement to the South which was attested (so subsequently Illyrian), or might include some former Triballians etc.




Maybe some associate V13 with eastern balkans, but that doesn't change that it has been found in the western balkans ancient DNA too. And that western balkans has very high V13 diversity.
It was all over the balkans during the bronze age and was probably involved in the dynamics associated with paleobalkanic IE languages(of course alongside other haplogroups like L283, Z2103 and PF7562)



Still both under Z5017 and Z5018 basal diversity is in the East (now with less Easterners than Albanians deep tested). I mentioned the clear option that is Vatin culture and its Western variant which was proto-Illyrian. Clades like Z5018 especially with newer finds fit fully into the Vatin and related cultures.

PH1246 is missing in the Eastern Balkans. Maybe some are around Carpathians. PH1246 is something which as it is fits fully into Cetina culture.“

“E-V13 originates from Western Balkan, Cetina culture who were practically enemies (one of important Cetina places became overrun by J-L283 elements as original Cetina culture waned and these had almost no contact despite being neighbors for some time) of incoming proto-Illyrians. And they migrated to Central Balkans and further East where they became part of Danubian archaeological complex which comprised the bulk of Iron Age Daco-Thracian culture, yet Cetina people spoke an Indoeuropean language of some sort, if Thracian is older language cultures like Vatina which must be associated with V13 also spoke Thracian.“

[hazmatnik]

Hello my Illyrian brother we were the original inhabitants of western Balkan alongside r1b. J2b came later than those 2

While i don't wanna take side i'm fully aware about split between Flor's J-L283 clan and Rrenjet clan (i actually sort of took side donating to Rrenjet rather than Flor's project).
Only thing i know is that you are closer to me through my maternal E-S2979 than most of Serbs and i respect that.
But you have to understand that i wasn't raised on Illyrian myth (but Slavic one) and yep, while its clear that both my paternal (under E-CTS9320) and maternal (E-S2979) are not of Slavic origin, i'm still searching for answers, i'm not either convinced that we are Illyrians too. One day if we prove that we were pure Illyrians, i will be fine about that but for now i lean toward Thracians or some sort of Illyro - Thracian mix than pure Illyrians.

[Pepa]

While i don't wanna take side i'm fully aware about split between Flor's J-L283 clan and Rrenjet clan (i actually sort of took side donating to Rrenjet rather than Flor's project).
Only thing i know is that you are closer to me through my maternal E-S2979 than most of Serbs and i respect that.
But you have to understand that i wasn't raised on Illyrian myth (but Slavic one) and yep, while its clear that both my paternal (under E-CTS9320) and maternal (E-S2979) are not of Slavic origin, i'm still searching for answers, i'm not either convinced that we are Illyrians too. One day if we prove that we were pure Illyrians, i will be fine about that but for now i lean toward Thracians or some sort of Illyro - Thracian mix than pure Illyrians.

Ev13 is from cetina j2b invaded and caused ev13 to migrate because ev13 diversity is in western balkan like ph1246 which isn’t found in eastern Balkan only west and is Illyrian

[hazmatnik]

Ev13 is from cetina j2b invaded and caused ev13 to migrate because ev13 diversity is in western balkan like ph1246 which isn’t found in eastern Balkan only west and is Illyrian

Pepperoni, unless we have proof for that its just construction. Time will tell, we just have to be patient.

[Pepa]

Pepperoni, unless we have proof for that its just construction. Time will tell, we just have to be patient.

EV13 made up portion of Illyrians surely but the bulk of it doesn't fit very well into culture which was there in Western Balkans 2000 BC, 1500 BC, 1000 BC etc.
Cetina culture from where PH1246 and ultimately all V13 may stem disappeared and its remnants (some PH1246 one finds) today were assimilated by primarily J-L283 heavy culture


Some other V13's that almost certainly descend of Dardanians should be connected with a pre-Illyrian Dardanian Moesian substrate that was mentioned by many authors. Likely J-PH1602's and J-Z631 moved westwards (attested for Glasinac groups) and made up Dardanian Illyrian elite. Dardanian rulers had mostly Illyrian names but heavy presence of Thracian names was noted in Eastern regions. And even in Skopje area.


Albanians also have significant diversity of CTS9320 but this clade may fit better as some Gava culture movement to the South which was attested (so subsequently Illyrian), or might include some former Triballians etc.




Maybe some associate V13 with eastern balkans, but that doesn't change that it has been found in the western balkans ancient DNA too. And that western balkans has very high V13 diversity.
It was all over the balkans during the bronze age and was probably involved in the dynamics associated with paleobalkanic IE languages(of course alongside other haplogroups like L283, Z2103 and PF7562)



Still both under Z5017 and Z5018 basal diversity is in the East (now with less Easterners than Albanians deep tested). I mentioned the clear option that is Vatin culture and its Western variant which was proto-Illyrian. Clades like Z5018 especially with newer finds fit fully into the Vatin and related cultures.

PH1246 is missing in the Eastern Balkans. Maybe some are around Carpathians. PH1246 is something which as it is fits fully into Cetina culture.“

“E-V13 originates from Western Balkan, Cetina culture who were practically enemies (one of important Cetina places became overrun by J-L283 elements as original Cetina culture waned and these had almost no contact despite being neighbors for some time) of incoming proto-Illyrians. And they migrated to Central Balkans and further East where they became part of Danubian archaeological complex which comprised the bulk of Iron Age Daco-Thracian culture, yet Cetina people spoke an Indoeuropean language of some sort, if Thracian is older language cultures like Vatina which must be associated with V13 also spoke Thracian.“

[Pepa]

Pepperoni, unless we have proof for that its just construction. Time will tell, we just have to be patient.
We already have el618 in Croatia 10000 bc so it very likely

[hazmatnik]

“E-V13 originates from Western Balkan, Cetina culture who were practically enemies (one of important Cetina places became overrun by J-L283 elements as original Cetina culture waned and these had almost no contact despite being neighbors for some time) of incoming proto-Illyrians. And they migrated to Central Balkans and further East where they became part of Danubian archaeological complex which comprised the bulk of Iron Age Daco-Thracian culture, yet Cetina people spoke an Indoeuropean language of some sort, if Thracian is older language cultures like Vatina which must be associated with V13 also spoke Thracian.“

Are you aware what you are implying? That J-L283 fucked us up. Balkan is already circus we don't need more splits :argue:

[Lemurian]

I for one don't personally think Albanian has an East Balkan origin per se, but rather a central-west Balkan origin, primarily Illyrian with some Thracian. The context of the contact with Romanian is still murky and complicated, but the Balkan Sprachbund probably did form somewhere in the central region mostly south of the Danube, before the splitting of proto-Romanian. Albanian shows similarities to both Dalmatian (and further to West Romance to a lesser extent) and East Romance. I've actually done quite a bit of research on the vocabulary and comparing the two. It can be difficult to sift out east vs west Romance influences on very ancient Romance elements in Albanian, due to subsequent changes.

They seem to have undergone some similar sound shifts, probably in Late Antiquity, but the main divergence is in vocabulary. There are more Latin words common only to Albanian and West Romance than there are to Albanian and East Romance. However, many more are shared between all three of these. Also, there are some words that have undergone unique local semantic shifts in East Romance and Albanian, so it's a complex puzzle.

We are probably talking about several processes over different periods of time, likely linguistic contact between these two that may have come after the retreat of Roman influence and power in the region, maybe the migration era and early Middle Ages.


About East Romance and Albanian:

Again, West Romance and Albanian:


So Mihaescu acknowledges the East Romance-Albanian connection, but he says the West Romance-Albanian connection is much stronger. He says the contact with West Romance happened near the border with East Romance around Albania-Kosovo-NM. So it would be around the region where the West Romance-East Romance border was.

But I didn't see his analysis on it, so maybe he was mistaken about that. Many West Romance words could've been adopted via Western Romance influence in administration rather than neighborly contact (there was stronger Italian influence and Italians don't neighbor Albanians), and at a later date (no time period for it is mentioned). While we have evidence of parallel Romanian and Albanian sound shifts that show clear East Romance influence that came as a result of neighborly contact. I haven't even seen any info on what type of Romance language Western Serbia/B&H/Montenegro spoke before Slavic. So a more detailed analysis on West Romance-Albanian is needed to confirm-deny his statement, specifically related to sound shifts and the age of that contact.

But it's also possible that the West Romance contact predates the East Romance contact. I don't think there's any clear consensus on when Proto-Romanian developed, so this date needs to be analysed too. Italo-Dalmatian was spoken in South Italy and Dalmatia/Istria, so it's not far-fetched that they had contact with early Albanians. But I haven't found info on if Western Serbia/B&H/Montenegro spoke Italo-Dalmatian or Eastern Romance (we just know Eastern Serbia spoke Eastern Romance). Dinaric Romance's classification would clear things up a lot.

This is where the information on the West Romance and Albanian contact is from:
https://archive.org/details/warsofbalkanpeni0000madg/page/146/mode/2up

I think E-V13 could be explained as a founder effect. What about the other clades besides E-V13? Are they Illyrian or Thracian?

You seem to know a lot about this, or at least have a lot of interest in it. Out of curiosity, what got you into this topic of all things?

Btw, I don't think we will ever know the details about the type of Romance that was spoken in Serbia before the Slavs arrived. There just aren't enough records, unfortunately.

[Dardanos]

Looking at linguistics, the Illyrian origin theory makes much more sense. Red0's post about Thracian toponymy being impossible for Albanian is pretty good. And genetics (Y-DNA) can easily be explained by Albanians having ancestry from both groups. If Albanians originated in the Moesia-Dardania region, then it would be impossible for them to be either 100% Illyrian or 100% Thracian since that's the area where the two ethnic groups bordered each other. It doesn't even make a difference on disputed territorial claims if Albanians are Thracian or Illyrian anyways.


Ofc it is, serbs only argument about kosovo is we wuz kangz and they ignore everything else, so albanians originating somewhere from south serbia or kosovo blows their mind to 300 pieces, somewhat i understand their fear

There will come a day where the proto-albanian is founded through genetics, and it will be a hard truth to swallow for them, like swallowing that I2a-Dinaric is not of Illyrian origin and j2b2 not from chechenia and e-v13 not from tunisian pirates

For our nations to make peace, they have to first acknowledge us, not as they view us but as how the truth is...

[hazmatnik]

Ofc it is, serbs only argument about kosovo is we wuz kangz and they ignore everything else, so albanians originating somewhere from south serbia or kosovo blows their mind to 300 pieces, somewhat i understand their fear

Sure, my mind exploded because of you, i'm still searching it in Mexico :eek: Bla, bla, bla.

[Pepa]

Are you aware what you are implying? That J-L283 fucked us up. Balkan is already circus we don't need more splits :argue:

There’s something about jl283ers I don’t like for some reason maybe it’s that cuz we fought each other.

[hazmatnik]

There’s something about jl283ers I don’t like for some reason maybe it’s that cuz we fought each other.

All my albanian friends are not J-L283 so idk :rolleyes:

[Mingle]

I for one don't personally think Albanian has an East Balkan origin per se, but rather a central-west Balkan origin, primarily Illyrian with some Thracian. The context of the contact with Romanian is still murky and complicated, but the Balkan Sprachbund probably did form somewhere in the central region mostly south of the Danube, before the splitting of proto-Romanian. Albanian shows similarities to both Dalmatian (and further to West Romance to a lesser extent) and East Romance. I've actually done quite a bit of research on the vocabulary and comparing the two. It can be difficult to sift out east vs west Romance influences on very ancient Romance elements in Albanian, due to subsequent changes.

They seem to have undergone some similar sound shifts, probably in Late Antiquity, but the main divergence is in vocabulary. There are more Latin words common only to Albanian and West Romance than there are to Albanian and East Romance. However, many more are shared between all three of these. Also, there are some words that have undergone unique local semantic shifts in East Romance and Albanian, so it's a complex puzzle.

We are probably talking about several processes over different periods of time, likely linguistic contact between these two that may have come after the retreat of Roman influence and power in the region, maybe the migration era and early Middle Ages.

Makes sense. Albanian-Eastern Romance contact is well known, but that doesn't mean Albanian's contact happened only with Eastern Romance. Albanian-Western Romance contact is a topic that should be taken more seriously. Any topic that talks about Albanian-Eastern Romance without also talking about Albanian-Western Romance shouldn't be used in discussions like these. That linguist I quoted earlier is one of the few I've come across to compare the two, and I don't think there's enough info we have to dispute his claims. Besides that linguist (Mihaescu), I have seen two other linguists agree with him regarding his conclusions on Albanian's connection with Latin. They are Çabej and Harald Haarmann. It's mentioned in the link I posted in the other page. Also, I haven't seen other linguists compare the two and disagree with him yet.

How were you able to compare the West Romance and East Romance influences on Albanian by the way? Can you share any specific data or sources you used?


You seem to know a lot about this, or at least have a lot of interest in it. Out of curiosity, what got you into this topic of all things?

I've been on this site for a while and these kinds of topics come up a lot. And I'm generally interested in history-related stuff.


Btw, I don't think we will ever know the details about the type of Romance that was spoken in Serbia before the Slavs arrived. There just aren't enough records, unfortunately.

There were many Vulgar Latin inscriptions in Serbia, we should be able to get a clue on it. But I haven't seen papers published on the topic.

Here's maps of where Latin inscriptions were found:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ancientrome/comments/sat5mz/each_point_on_this_map_is_a_roman_latin/

I actually recently came across a paper talking about Asiatic Latin from the period that Rome governed Asia (Western Anatolia) with many Latin inscriptions being found there. It was mostly about the topic of Latin's social role in Asia compared to Greek.

After making that earlier post, I came across a paper comparing the Vulgar Latin inscriptions in Friulia, Istria, Dalmatia, and Pannonia (Budapest specifically). All these regions were considered to be part of the same Latin linguistic sphere based on Vulgar Latin sound shifts that occurred in all these places.


These statistical analyses demonstrated that most of the territories in the Alps–Danube– Adria region are linguistically similar to each other. We made comparisons in 8–8 categories in the early and the later periods, 16 categories in total. Venetia–Histria, Carnuntum and Pannonia Superior, Pannonia Inferior, Noricum and Virunum, Raetia and Augusta Vindelicorum are more often similar (in 9–15 categories) than different. At the other end of the spectrum, there are Salona and Dalmatia, Aquileia and Aquincum (similar in 10–11 categories).

https://www.academia.edu/78981241/Dialects_of_Vulgar_Latin_and_the_Dialectal_Classif ication_of_the_Alps_Danube_Adria_Region1

He also says that this dialect cluster has a tendency to shift towards East Romance compared to the dialects of Noricum (Austria). So he sees them as eastern shifted Western Romance.

We also know that Western Romance (Italo-Dalmatian) was spoken in the southernmost part of Dalmatia (Dubrovnik) in relatively recent times. If we draw a line from Budapest to Dubrovnik, then Bosnia would fall under that dialect cluster too. Bosnia, Croatia, and Hungary were all administered as part of the Roman provinces of Dalmatia or Pannonia, so it's very likely that Bosnia (being part of the Dalmatia province) spoke Italo-Dalmatian.

Since Eastern Serbia was Eastern Romance (point of contact between East Romance and Albania) and Bosnia was almost definitely Western Romance, Western/Central Serbia was probably around the meeting point of Western Romance (Italo-Dalmatian) and Eastern Romance I'm guessing.

[Pepa]

All ev13 carriers originated in western balkan and is of proto illyrian origin, it will show up in vucedol culture area one day

[hazmatnik]

All ev13 carriers originated in western balkan and is of proto illyrian origin, it will show up in vucedol culture area one day

Relax man, every river will reach its sea.

[Lemurian]

Makes sense. Albanian-Eastern Romance contact is well known, but that doesn't mean Albanian's contact happened only with Eastern Romance. Albanian-Western Romance contact is a topic that should be taken more seriously. Any topic that talks about Albanian-Eastern Romance without also talking about Albanian-Western Romance shouldn't be used in discussions like these. That linguist I quoted earlier is one of the few I've come across to compare the two, and I don't think there's enough info we have to dispute his claims. Besides that linguist (Mihaescu), I have seen two other linguists agree with him regarding his conclusions on Albanian's connection with Latin. They are Çabej and Harald Haarmann. It's mentioned in the link I posted in the other page. Also, I haven't seen other linguists compare the two and disagree with him yet.

How were you able to compare the West Romance and East Romance influences on Albanian by the way? Can you share any specific data or sources you used?



I've been on this site for a while and these kinds of topics come up a lot. And I'm generally interested in history-related stuff.



There were many Vulgar Latin inscriptions in Serbia, we should be able to get a clue on it. But I haven't seen papers published on the topic.

Here's maps of where Latin inscriptions were found:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ancientrome/comments/sat5mz/each_point_on_this_map_is_a_roman_latin/

I actually recently came across a paper talking about Asiatic Latin from the period that Rome governed Asia (Western Anatolia) with many Latin inscriptions being found there. It was mostly about the topic of Latin's social role in Asia compared to Greek.

After making that earlier post, I came across a paper comparing the Vulgar Latin inscriptions in Friulia, Istria, Dalmatia, and Pannonia (Budapest specifically). All these regions were considered to be part of the same Latin linguistic sphere based on Vulgar Latin sound shifts that occurred in all these places.



https://www.academia.edu/78981241/Dialects_of_Vulgar_Latin_and_the_Dialectal_Classif ication_of_the_Alps_Danube_Adria_Region1

He also says that this dialect cluster has a tendency to shift towards East Romance compared to the dialects of Noricum (Austria). So he sees them as eastern shifted Western Romance.

We also know that Western Romance (Italo-Dalmatian) was spoken in the southernmost part of Dalmatia (Dubrovnik) in relatively recent times. If we draw a line from Budapest to Dubrovnik, then Bosnia would fall under that dialect cluster too. Bosnia, Croatia, and Hungary were all administered as part of the Roman provinces of Dalmatia or Pannonia, so it's very likely that Bosnia (being part of the Dalmatia province) spoke Italo-Dalmatian.

Since Eastern Serbia was Eastern Romance (point of contact between East Romance and Albania) and Bosnia was almost definitely Western Romance, Western/Central Serbia was probably around the meeting point of Western Romance (Italo-Dalmatian) and Eastern Romance I'm guessing.

Ah, that's fascinating about the Vulgar Latin inscriptions in Serbia. I wasn't aware there was that much to work with. I had previously assumed that East Romance accounted for much of Balkan Latin except maybe the Adriatic Coast and western regions. Now I'm not so sure... maybe it had a more limited range than it was thought. Still, I'd imagine if we had more of a surviving corpus of inscriptions or texts in the central Balkans, it wouldn't be easily or definitively placeable squarely in either Eastern or Western Romance, but rather show intermediate features, as the rest of the Romance world basically consists of a gradual dialect continuum, for the most part.

When I was looking over and comparing the words, it wasn't anything too academic or rigorous. I was just reading over vocabulary comparisons in some old scanned books and articles on the topic, from Romanian and other linguists. This was like ten years ago though; I hardly remember the details. Also sites like Wiktionary help a bit.

I do remember definitely noticing some occasional parallels of some northeastern Italian languages, like Friulian, and Romanian, so it's interesting you mention there was a tendency for an eastern shift in that part of Western Romance. Not as many parallels as Romanian/East Romance and some southern Italian dialects like Neapolitan and Calabrian though (also Salentino and Abruzzese sometimes). The La Spezia-Rimini line might come into play for this particular division.

Friulian and Ladin had some commonalities with Istriot (which was also influenced by Venetian), and that further had some ties with Dalmatian, so I feel like there was some kind of continuum here. Maybe that lost Romance in Bosnia and western Serbia was the next one in line between Dalmatian and East Romance.

[Lux Tenebras]

Sure Chetnik: the main lineages in Albanians are from Illyrians you little Chetnik, so it is not surprising that Albanians live where Illyrians lived and the main lineages are clearly from Illyrians and the languages is connected to Messapic, who were most likely proto-Illyrians. You sure love to talk shit. As for Dardani, they were considered an Illyrian tribe, if they absorbed Thracians I don't see how that is relevant.

The language originated where Illyrians lived. Nish-Shtip was the easternmost expansion which was a Thracian-Illyrian contact zone. Albanian language has nothing to do with any Thracian/Dacian bullshit, if that was the case such toponyms would be present in Albanian lands. The only thing you could argue is that such people were absorbed into Albanians.


The E-V13 is around 20%-30% and is nothing unusual for the West-Balkans of the Roman Era and is also present in Greeks and has experienced founder effects. There are also E-V13 that have been found that are clearly of Illyrian origin in the Central Balkans with Illyrian-like profiles. I can see what you are trying to do here.


The only ''reprogramming'' that needs to be done is for you to shut the fuck up, monkey ass Chetnik and certainly nothing suggests E-V13 was absorbed by Illyrians through ''Slave or Trade''. Stephanus wrote that the towns of the Dardani such as Nish and Shkupi were inhabited by Thracians during Roman era. You talk all kinds of shit retarded Chetnik as nobody is saying proto-Albanians were an isolated people that did not mix or absorb other populations, what bothers me how you are trying to delink it entirely from Illyrian.

What a nonsense and pure Albanian propaganda.

Albanians come from East balkan. You got some "Illyrian" haplogroups but so does others on balkan because of assimilation.

https://i.ibb.co/MV9HCjz/aa.png

You are closer to sample from Bulgaria, not Albania or Croatia who are Illyrian samples.

Leave this being Illyrian "gate keepers" thing, theory does not hold water.

You Albanians should focus on economy, something much more important stuff, the Albanian population is drastically decreasing.

[Pepa]

What a nonsense and pure Albanian propaganda.

Albanians come from East balkan. You got some "Illyrian" haplogroups but so does others on balkan because of assimilation.

https://i.ibb.co/MV9HCjz/aa.png

You are closer to sample from Bulgaria, not Albania or Croatia who are Illyrian samples.

Leave this being Illyrian "gate keepers" thing, theory does not hold water.

You Albanians should focus on economy, something much more important stuff, the Albanian population is drastically decreasing.

Ev13 r1b z103 or pf7563 and j2b l283 are illyrian and make up majority of albos