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Æmeric
04-03-2009, 11:22 PM
DES MOINES — Iowa became the first state in the Midwest to approve same-sex marriage on Friday, after the Iowa Supreme Court unanimously decided that a 1998 law limiting marriage to a man and a woman was unconstitutional.

The decision was the culmination of a four-year legal battle that began with a suit filed on behalf of six same-sex couples in the lower courts.

The Supreme Court said same-sex marriages could begin in Iowa in as soon as 21 days, making Iowa only the third state in the nation, along with Massachusetts and Connecticut, to legalize gay marriage.

Same-sex marriages will be permitted in Iowa for at least two years, because the legislative process required to overturn the ruling would take that long. A constitutional amendment would require the state legislature to approve a ban on same-sex marriage in two consecutive sessions after which voters would have a chance to weigh in. Despite opposition to the ruling by Republican lawmakers, Democrats, who control the legislature, have given no indication that they intend to introduce such an amendment.

Iowa has no residency requirement for getting a marriage license, which some suggest may mean a flurry of people from other states.

While the same-sex marriage debate has played out on both coasts, the Midwest — where no states had permitted same-sex marriage — was seen as entirely different. In the past, at least six states in the Midwest were among those around the country that adopted amendments to their state constitutions banning same-sex marriage.

“We have a constitutional duty to ensure equal protection of the law,” the Iowa justices wrote in their opinion. “If gay and lesbian people must submit to different treatment without an exceedingly persuasive justification, they are deprived of the benefits of the principle of equal protection upon which the rule of law is founded.”

“The concept of equal protection, is deeply rooted in our national and state history, but that history reveals this concept is often expressed far more easily than it is practiced,” the court wrote.

Iowa has enforced its constitution in a series of landmark court decisions, including those that struck down slavery (in 1839) and segregation (cases in 1868 and 1873), and upheld women’s rights by becoming the first state in the nation to allow a woman to practice law, in 1869.

In a hotel in Des Moines on Friday morning, several of the same-sex couples who were involved in the suit wept, teared up and embraced as they learned about the decision from their lawyers. “I’d like to introduce you to my fiancee,” said Kate Varnum, 34, reaching over to Trish Varnum. “Today I am proud to be a lifelong Iowan.”

“We are blessed to live in Iowa,” she added.

Opponents of same-sex marriage criticized the ruling.

“The decision made by the Iowa Supreme Court today to allow gay marriage in Iowa is disappointing on many levels," State Senator Paul McKinley, the Republican leader, said in a statement on The Des Moines Register’s Web site. "I believe marriage should only be between one man and one woman and I am confident the majority of Iowans want traditional marriage to be legally recognized in this state."

He added: "Though the court has made their decision, I believe every Iowan should have a voice on this matter and that is why the Iowa Legislature should immediately act to pass a Constitutional Amendment that protects traditional marriage, keeps it as a sacred bond only between one man and one woman and gives every Iowan a chance to have their say through a vote of the people."

Two states — Connecticut and Massachusetts — currently allow same-sex marriages. Several other states on the East coast allow civil unions, lawmakers in Vermont are considering gay marriage, and California allowed it until November’s election, when residents rejected the idea in a voter initiative.

A change in Iowa’s take on marriage, advocates for gay marriage said before Friday’s ruling, would signal a broader shift in public thinking, even in the nation’s more conservative middle. Opponents of same-sex marriage, meanwhile, had said any legal decision in support of same-sex marriage in Iowa would certainly trigger a prompt and sharp response among residents and, surely, state lawmakers.

In one part of the decision that focuses on religious opposition to same-sex marriage, the justices seemed to anticipate negative reactions, saying they considered the unspoken reason for the ban on same-sex marriages to be religiously motivated. The justices said marriage was a “civil contract” and should not affect religious doctrine or views.

“The only difference is civil marriage will now take on a new meaning that reflects a more complete understanding of equal protection of the law,” the justices wrote.

The legal case here began in 2005, when six same-sex couples filed suit against the county recorder here in Polk County because he would not accept their marriage license applications.

Two years later, a local judge here, Robert B. Hanson, ruled in that case that a state law defining marriage as only between a man and woman was unconstitutional. The ruling, in 2007, set off a flurry of same-sex couples from all over the state, racing for the courthouse in Polk County.

The rush lasted less than a day in August of 2007. Although Judge Hanson had ruled against the state law, he quickly decided to delay any additional granting of licenses, saying that the Iowa Supreme Court should have an opportunity to weigh in first. In the end, about 20 couples applied before the stay was issued. Just one couple, Timothy McQuillan, then 21, and Sean Fritz, 24, managed to obtain their license and also to marry.

Maura Strassberg, a professor of law at Drake University, married her partner in Massachusetts last year, but was overjoyed to learn that her status will be legal in three weeks in Iowa.

After a quick review of the 69-page decision, Ms. Strassberg said she was not surprised with the outcome, but only how it was rendered. “What is really stunning is that it’s unanimous,” she said. “It’s a very bold, confident opinion. It affirms a certain notion of what Iowa is and what Iowa means.”

Source (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/04/us/04iowa.html?bl&ex=1238904000&en=e70ffe2956e3a3c3&ei=5087%0A)

This is liable to create quite a political backlash. Unlike neighboring Midwest states like Wisconsin or Minnesota which are more socially liberally, Iowa, in spite of having a strong Democratic Party, is more rural & socially conservative. And as yet gay marriage has only become legal the three states that allow it (Massachusetts & Connecticut being the other 2) by judicial degree.

jerney
04-04-2009, 04:42 AM
Congrats to all the lucky couples.

Baron Samedi
04-04-2009, 04:53 AM
Congrats to all the lucky couples.

Indeed. I don't see why so many people give a shit about this.

Marriage is an outdated institution as it is....

Psychonaut
04-04-2009, 04:58 AM
Marriage is an outdated institution as it is....

So sayeth the single man. ;)

Baron Samedi
04-04-2009, 05:00 AM
So sayeth the single man. ;)

Single for a good damn reason. ;)

Unless we are still using marriage for alliance-purposes.... Who really cares?

Love requires no special ceremony to be set in time and space.

Psychonaut
04-04-2009, 05:18 AM
Single for a good damn reason. ;)

Unless we are still using marriage for alliance-purposes.... Who really cares?

Love requires no special ceremony to be set in time and space.

I won't drag this out in Æmeric's thread, which is about a specific instance of marriage, but I'd like to pursue this line of thought about the institution of marriage (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=32754) in general.

Loddfafner
04-04-2009, 02:58 PM
From the Iowa court:


While heterosexual marriage does lead to procreation, the
argument by the County fails to address the real issue in our required analysis of the objective: whether exclusion of gay and lesbian individuals from the institution of civil marriage will result in more procreation? If procreation is the true objective, then the proffered classification must work to achieve that objective.

If anyone is curious, here is the full pdf text of the legal opinion:

Gwynyvyr
04-04-2009, 05:37 PM
I know some married gay couples. One has been together 22 years, another 12 years (with an adopted son) and a third (lesbian) couple has been together 14 years and has been taking in foster kids for 10 years.
All good people.
I have seen straight couples get married and split within a few months.

That being said...the government has no damn business getting into the *marriage business*.
Marriage is an agreement between two people. Who they are and what they agree to is their own business as long as they have reached the age of consent.

If the government wants to involve itself, then couples (of which ever gender) need to sign a legal partnership agreement as is done in other contracts.A sort of LLC. It should cover all reasonably predictable contingencies; such as children, powers of attorney, inheritences, etc.

Birka
04-04-2009, 06:56 PM
That being said...the government has no damn business getting into the *marriage business*.
Marriage is an agreement between two people. Who they are and what they agree to is their own business as long as they have reached the age of consent.



Great point. The government is in way too many aspects of our lives anyway.

Vulpix
04-04-2009, 08:33 PM
Why do gays have to marry? I don't get it.

Gwynyvyr
04-04-2009, 08:35 PM
Why do gays have to marry? I don't get it.

Why do *straights* have to marry?

Psychonaut
04-04-2009, 09:09 PM
Why do *straights* have to marry?

Because it's a Western tradition that has been in continuous practice as long as written and oral traditions stretch back. It is the very foundation of our society and has been since time immemorial.

Æmeric
04-04-2009, 09:38 PM
Why do *straights* have to marry?You sound like someone who has had bad luck with marriage. But that is no reason to disregard the institution. I thas worked well for most people.

Gwynyvyr
04-05-2009, 01:49 AM
Because it's a Western tradition that has been in continuous practice as long as written and oral traditions stretch back. It is the very foundation of our society and has been since time immemorial.

Gay and Lesbian couples have been around as long as written and oral traditions stretch back as well.

As for *foundation of our society*...
Marriage in some societies (Western societies as well) was once used to cement royal treaties, expand ones land holdings or legitimize ones claim to the throne.
The majority of marriages up until 1600 to 1700 (dependent upon the western culture you were in) were business deals (if you were in the middle to upper class). In the lower classes, *common-law* marriages were ...well...more common.
Marrying for love is a fairly recent development.

Gwynyvyr
04-05-2009, 01:53 AM
You sound like someone who has had bad luck with marriage. But that is no reason to disregard the institution. I thas worked well for most people.

Not bad luck...just bad decisions on my part. I was a legal adult and "knew what I was doing". Went in with my eyes wide open and had no one to blame but myself.

I am having a divorce party on May 2nd...wanna come?
BBQ, live music and the ceremonial "burning of the marriage certificate", followed by a champagne toast.
South East Texas...come on down...

Psychonaut
04-05-2009, 06:19 AM
Gay and Lesbian couples have been around as long as written and oral traditions stretch back as well.

Yeah...but unless we're talking about Greece, then they've also been a rather disapproved of minority pretty much the whole time.


As for *foundation of our society*...
Marriage in some societies (Western societies as well) was once used to cement royal treaties, expand ones land holdings or legitimize ones claim to the throne.

Royals are always exceptions to the rule and what they do with their marriages has never had much bearing on the societies they presided over.


The majority of marriages up until 1600 to 1700 (dependent upon the western culture you were in) were business deals (if you were in the middle to upper class). In the lower classes, *common-law* marriages were ...well...more common.
Marrying for love is a fairly recent development.

Yes, but what bearing has this on the issue of gay "marriage"?

Gwynyvyr
04-05-2009, 08:23 AM
Yeah...but unless we're talking about Greece, then they've also been a rather disapproved of minority pretty much the whole time.



Royals are always exceptions to the rule and what they do with their marriages has never had much bearing on the societies they presided over.



Yes, but what bearing has this on the issue of gay "marriage"?

Gays fall in love just as straights do. Allowing them the same marriage rights as hetero couples will injure you (and the institution of marriage) how?

Look, Dennis and Matthew have been together 16 years. Dennis was previously in a *straight* marriage for 8 years. He never felt his first marriage was *right*, but didn't know exactly was wrong...until after his divorce. He went out with a male friend (non romantically) and found he was feeling more attraction to the men they encountered than the women. It took Dennis a couple of years to wrap his head around the revelation that he was, in fact, gay.
He dated men for awhile and then met Matthew. He is happy. Matthew is happy. The children Dennis fathered during his straight marriage are happy for their father. (In fact, the only unhappy person is Dennis's ex-wife, who has never dated since her divorce and obsessively holds on to the thought of "he'll come back to me". But that's HER problem.) Dennis and Matthew got married in California (when it was briefly legal) and redid their vows in Vermont.

Now, how does Dennis and Matthews happiness impact on your life?
Does it make your marriage less in some way? Are you unhappy that somewhere out there, a retired school teacher and a computer software designer are living with someone they love and flipping through a photo album with their wedding pictures in it?

I seriously do not *get it*. Why would the marriage of two consenting adults upset people so much?
Look, I don't like mixed race marriages, but they are legal and there is little I can do to prevent them or dissuade those people that wish to enter into a relationship with someone of another race. It is not something I would do, and it is something I have discouraged my children from doing. Strongly discouraged. So far, my children are in agreement with me.

But gay marriage...what's the problem?
Would you prefer that it be legislated that they HAD to enter into a *straight* relationship, even though both parties would end up absolutely miserable?
Is it because some people of desirable racial and physical qualities might not reproduce? Think! It is equally probable that some people with undesirable racial and physical qualities will NOT reproduce. (A coin has two sides in that equation)

Again, I do not see the harm in gay marriage.

Psychonaut
04-05-2009, 08:33 AM
I seriously do not *get it*. Why would the marriage of two consenting adults upset people so much?

Because it's not marriage. The word has never, in any culture that I've ever heard of, referred to two people of the same gender. If two gay guys want to live together and do whatever it is they do, that's fine by me. What I don't understand is why they wish to pretend to be something they are not. Two people of the same gender cannot be a husband and wife; they're just two dudes, or two dudettes. If they want to be together and come up with some different word for that, then whatever; but married they will not be (in my book at least).

SwordoftheVistula
04-05-2009, 09:27 AM
Allowing them the same marriage rights as hetero couples will injure you (and the institution of marriage) how?

Under the current system, it allows them to receive insurance, pension, and other benefits, especially if they are state workers, and might allow them to get social security 'survivor' benefits as well.

Gwynyvyr
04-05-2009, 03:57 PM
Under the current system, it allows them to receive insurance, pension, and other benefits, especially if they are state workers, and might allow them to get social security 'survivor' benefits as well.

How does that harm you?

And why shouldn't they get the same benefits? If Dennis and Matthew are together for 20 years and Dennis dies, hell, yeah, Matthew should get the same benefits as if he had been a *widow*.And Matthew should be able to put Dennis on his health insurance as his spouse.(Well, they live in Vermont now, so Matthew can, but in many places he can't)
If Dennis had married, say, Kathy and died 3 months later, Kathy would be entitled to all those self-same benefits.
You do realize that the first couple that married when same sex marriages were briefly made legal in Calif. was a lesbian couple that had been together for 50+ years, right?

Yet they are not to be given the same benefits as the couple that gets married during a weekend bender in Vegas and spends only one night together (and six months getting the marriage annulled)?

Gwynyvyr
04-05-2009, 04:10 PM
Because it's not marriage. The word has never, in any culture that I've ever heard of, referred to two people of the same gender. If two gay guys want to live together and do whatever it is they do, that's fine by me. What I don't understand is why they wish to pretend to be something they are not. Two people of the same gender cannot be a husband and wife; they're just two dudes, or two dudettes. If they want to be together and come up with some different word for that, then whatever; but married they will not be (in my book at least).

Look, marriage is a biggie to the monotheist crowd, I realize that.
Marriage was (and is, to the majority) a way to *possess* another human.
Women and children were chattel. I realize that. The remnants of those laws weren't overturned in the US until the 1970s.
Marriage always was a peculiarly patriarchal flavored institution, so I understand why most men, and in particular monotheistic men of the JCI religions would object to it.
I am a libertarian. I don't think the government should be in the business of regulating marriages between two consenting adults.
If someone wants to get married in a church with 250 witnesses, 12 bridesmaids and a 12 foot long cathedral train on an overly ruffled and be-laced gown, no one objects. (Although I wish someone would have in 1974 :rolleyes: )
But if two women in sensible shoes want to declare their love for one another in front of family and friends, all of a sudden objections fly from every corner.
Ridiculous.
I have no problem at all calling their *commitment ceremony* a "marriage".
Because that is what it is.They are married.
It does me no harm.
It does you no harm.
Why the objection?

Loddfafner
04-05-2009, 05:09 PM
Because it's not marriage. The word has never, in any culture that I've ever heard of, referred to two people of the same gender.

There have been religious ceremonies binding pairs of men although historians debate the extent to which they might have had any sexual implications:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelphopoiia

Psychonaut
04-05-2009, 05:37 PM
Look, marriage is a biggie to the monotheist crowd, I realize that.

Who mentioned monotheism? Certainly not this Heathen. ;) With the exception of a few polygynous rulers, our Heathen ancestors were also very big on marriage and defined it as something between a husband and wife. It was not a Christian imposition in the least.


Why the objection?

Personally, I find that it's an affront to a several thousand year old tradition. It's really no different than all of the Arabs that live in Paris who now call themselves French. Taking a word that has an established meaning that is intrinsic to a culture and altering the meaning of that word to cater to minority groups is, in my opinion, the antithesis of cultural preservation.

SwordoftheVistula
04-06-2009, 03:30 PM
How does that harm you?

Because the money to pay them comes from either taxes levied on others, or the printing of money which devalues the money held by the rest of society.


And why shouldn't they get the same benefits? If Dennis and Matthew are together for 20 years and Dennis dies, hell, yeah, Matthew should get the same benefits as if he had been a *widow*.And Matthew should be able to put Dennis on his health insurance as his spouse.(Well, they live in Vermont now, so Matthew can, but in many places he can't)
If Dennis had married, say, Kathy and died 3 months later, Kathy would be entitled to all those self-same benefits.

The whole reason 'Kathy' was given benefits was based on the presumption that she would be at home taking care of the kids, and therefore not having an employer-provided insurance and pension of her own, she should be able to share in 'Dennis' employer-provided insurance and pension. There's some valid arguments that can be made against this rationale, especially in the modern era, but there are no reasonable arguments that 'Matthew' should be entitled to 'Dennis' employer-provided insurance and pension since 'Matthew' is perfectly capable of going out and getting his own job. If a private employer or wants to provide benefits to 'Matthew', or grandma, or the family dog, then whatever, but the state should not be required to pay benefits and insurance to these people.

In a perfect society from a libertarian perspective, this whole discussion would be moot because we'd have very few if any government workers, there would be no social security or other government-run retirement system, and health insurance would be freely available on the open market instead of provided by employers to get tax subsidies. However, that's not the world we live in, and barring any drastic changes, we have to cut down on the limit of those 'feeding at the trough'.

Basically, the same logic applies to limiting the bonuses of the executives at the banks which received government bailout money. On the face of it, it doesn't hurt me when Hank Greenberg gets a 5 million dollar bonus, but it does because that money comes from either taxes, inflationary policy, or deficit spending which must later be paid for by taxes or inflationary policy.

Gwynyvyr
04-07-2009, 09:14 PM
Look...if you work and pay into retirement and workmans comp and pay for your health insurance that will cover and benefit you and your spouse, I have no problem with the gender of your spouse.
There are plenty of homes out there where the woman is the main bread-winner and the man is the *stay at home* partner.
I really don't understand this :
Because the money to pay them comes from either taxes levied on others, or the printing of money which devalues the money held by the rest of society.
I wasn't aware we in the US paid people to get married...regardless of gender. Or is this a secret you fellas have been holding out on...:eek:

As far as breaking with tradition and all that...there's a lot of traditions out there that have been broken vis-a-vis personal relationships. Slavery, women as chattel, beating ones wife, children as *possessions* and so on and so forth.
Some traditions need to be broken.

Same sex marriage?
Really doesn't bother me.
You have to realize that if same sex marriage is legalized, those states that legalize it see an influx of new investment and spending. (Gays tend to vote with their wallets...or pocketbooks as the case may be) They will move to those states, buy or create businesses, work at jobs, pay taxes, etc.

SwordoftheVistula
04-08-2009, 04:25 AM
I wasn't aware we in the US paid people to get married...regardless of gender. Or is this a secret you fellas have been holding out on.

They don't advertise it for obvious reasons, but all government workers have very good benefits and retirements, including health insurance coverage for spouses, also some other government programs make payments to spouses such as 'social security survivor benefits'.

Psychonaut
04-08-2009, 04:53 AM
They don't advertise it for obvious reasons, but all government workers have very good benefits and retirements, including health insurance coverage for spouses, also some other government programs make payments to spouses such as 'social security survivor benefits'.

It's true. My wife get's all kinds of rad benefits and such just for being married to me. I think it's a good thing too. :thumbs up