Ancient aegeans were dark skinned ?

[Hamilcar]

I initially thought that these minoan depictions of dark men were purely conventional and part of a wider artistic canon commonly found in the mediterranean area of that time but then I found this :


Using genotype data, we predicted that Pta08, Kou01, and Log02 most likely had brown eyes, dark brown to black hair, and dark skin (Table S1; STAR Methods). These predictions match the visual representations of male individuals from BA wall paintings of Minoan Crete for hair and eye color. The eye and hair color predictions were similar to those from later periods of the Aegean BA (Lazaridis et al., 2017). Although the overall prediction for all three individuals was of dark skin, they also all carried alleles strongly associated with lighter skin color (rs1426654 in the gene SLC24A5, and rs16891982 in SLC45A2) (Mathieson et al., 2015). The latter is in line with observations that skin depigmentation has been segregating since the Neolithic in southern Europe (Hofmanová et al., 2016; Mathieson et al., 2015).

https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(21)00370-6#secsectitle0110

It's also the first time I heard about skin depigmentation being segregating since the neolithic in southern europe :eek:

Do someone have any explanations ? Unfortunately this info seems to be often used by afrocentrists to claim that ancient greeks were diverse and ultimately found their roots in Africa :picard2:

[Diego Garcia]

I initially thought that these minoan depictions of dark men were purely conventional and part of a wider artistic canon commonly found in the mediterranean area of that time but then I found this :



https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(21)00370-6#secsectitle0110

It's also the first time I heard about skin depigmentation being segregating since the neolithic in southern europe :eek:

Do someone have any explanations ? Unfortunately this info seems to be often used by afrocentrists to claim that ancient greeks were diverse and ultimately found their roots in Africa :picard2:


If the solar radiation in the mediterranean bassin was more or less so intense as nowadays, and people had to stay outside in order to gain their bread, I have no doubt that their skins were not as clear as a novazemblan islander's.

[Hamilcar]

If the solar radiation in the mediterranean bassin was more or less so intense as nowadays, and people had to stay outside in order to gain their bread, I have no doubt that their skins were not as clear as a novazemblan islander's.

yes but they are talking about genes not environmental pressure

[Diego Garcia]

yes but they are talking about genes not environmental pressure


Ah OK, genes... well, it could be... why not.

Kemet was really very close to that geographical area.

[Hamilcar]

Ah OK, genes... well, it could be... why not.

Kemet was really very close to that geographical area.

there is no evidence of massive egyptian migrations to that area

[Diego Garcia]

there is no evidence of massive egyptian migrations to that area


No, evidences of human migrations into that area?

How weird.

Was everything evidenced in old times?

[Hamilcar]

No, evidences of human migrations into that area?

How weird.

Was everything evidenced in old times?

how can it be from egyptians if the study itself shows that they were not egyptian nor partially egyptian ? Also where are the archeological evidence of such massive migration and why would they massively migrate to these islands ?

[Dr_Maul]

I guess they evolved into it... Minoan are 75% EEF 25% Caucasian neither of which are supposed to be dark skinned really.

[Diego Garcia]

how can it be from egyptians if the study itself shows that they were not egyptian nor partially egyptian ? Also where are the archeological evidence of such massive migration and why would they massively migrate to these islands ?


Maybe that study is wrong, then.

The word "study" does not automatically imply absolute certainty.

[Synapsid]

I guess they evolved into it... Minoan are 75% EEF 25% Caucasian neither of which are supposed to be dark skinned really.

Looking at the way they depicted their females, it safe they had just a typical Med complexion. Dark Men light women is just a motif adopted from Near Eastern Art, like Egypt for example. Etruscans followed the same cultural tradition and were part of the Med/Near East melliu but we know they had higher levels of WHG and some level of steppe/Urnfield ancestry when compared to Minoans looking at Iron Age italic samples yet they still depicted men as super dark and women being lighter.

BTW their women most have looked hot, very West Med looking, like Spanish. Judging from their automal they would have very Gracile Med

[Dr_Maul]

Looking at the way they depicted their females, it safe they had just a typical Med complexion. Dark Men light women is just a motif adopted from Near Eastern Art, like Egypt for example. Etruscans followed the same cultural tradition and were part of the Med/Near East melliu but we know they had higher levels of WHG and some level of steppe/Urnfield ancestry when compared to Minoans looking at Iron Age italic samples yet they still depicted men as super dark and women being lighter.

BTW their women most have looked hot, very West Med looking, like Spanish. Judging from their automal they would have very Gracile Med

True, its still a thing in the modern middle east as well

[Luso]

Wouldn’t be surprised. A lot of meds and south euros in general still have the gene for darker skin than, for example, Northern Europe.

[Luso]

Do someone have any explanations ? Unfortunately this info seems to be often used by afrocentrists to claim that ancient greeks were diverse and ultimately found their roots in Africa :picard2:

Of course... bc anything thats dark is automatically dark dark brown or black :picard2:. When the researchers say dark they probably mean olive and bronze skin which is still seen in Mediterranean’s, it’s the normal color tbh. I have a bronzish color myself but that would never be confused for SSA skin.

[grabielx]

I initially thought that these minoan depictions of dark men were purely conventional and part of a wider artistic canon commonly found in the mediterranean area of that time but then I found this :



https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(21)00370-6#secsectitle0110

It's also the first time I heard about skin depigmentation being segregating since the neolithic in southern europe :eek:

Do someone have any explanations ? Unfortunately this info seems to be often used by afrocentrists to claim that ancient greeks were diverse and ultimately found their roots in Africa :picard2:

They had 4 light skin genes, that's enough to be fairly pale, on that standard most Europeans will be dark skinned, it's the same problem with WHG and what not, not every European is dead pale. And DNA doesn't predict skin color very well we know because of 23andme and other companies that often miss on skin color.

[Zeno]

Well, it is a given fact that both Minoans and Mycaeneans were darker in pigmentation than today's Greeks. I mean, it probably is correlated to the fact that during these last 4000 years Greeks have gained more Steppe admixture (which is between 4-16% in the notorious 2017 of Minoans/Mycaeneans), and thus, we got slightly lighter.

But anthropologically speaking, they were classic Meds, nothing unusual, as depicted by the frescoes themselves (the women must have been stunning btw).

[Morena]

I think evidence shows that Europeans have been getting lighter over time. This includes S. Europe. I don’t know why certain people are married to pigmentation, or dislike the idea of a gradual change in population aesthetics. Evolution (adaptation & sexual selection) doesn’t come to a particular point and then stop.

[Flashball]

EEF have more SNP related to light skin that WHG.


Aegeans have also more "Caucasian farmer" related.

Light pigmentation is also a selection pression trait.

Don't mix up your unscientific old anthropology stupidities for mentally retarded with present-day science

Genetics and appearance is more complex than your old anthropological stupidities, it's not all about "brown mediterranean" and "nordic", and I can't help for those who have an inferiority complex due to their non-European contribution which has no relation with Neolithic and Mesolithic European (I will not mention some Portuguese and Spaniards).

[Rethel]

It's also the first time I heard about skin depigmentation being segregating since the neolithic in southern europe :eek:Do someone have any explanations ?

We had such disscussion abount appearance of Minoans years ago.
It's simple, and no mistery: such civilisation would and obviously was buying white women from the north.
That's it.
There is no natural self-lightning. It exists only in twisted minds of mythomans.

[L.o.l.i.t.a]

I find it quite unlikely since both Anatolians and Caucasians were already monozygote for fair skin. women are always represented as white. More likely men tanned and there was some sign of masculinity in it.