The origin and legacy of the Etruscans through a 2,000-year archeogenomic time transect

[Token]

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB42866
Max Planck Institute for the Science of Human History

The origin, development and legacy of the enigmatic Etruscan civilization from the central region of the Italian peninsula known as Etruria has been the subject of scholarly debate for centuries. Here we report a genomic time transect of 82 individuals spanning almost two millennia (800 BCE – 1,000 CE) across Etruria and southern Italy. During the Iron Age, we detect a component of Indo-European-associated steppe ancestry and the lack of recent Anatolian admixture among the putative non-Indo-European-speaking Etruscans. Despite comprising diverse individuals of central European, northern African and Near Eastern ancestry, the local gene pool is largely maintained across the first millennium BCE. This continuity drastically changes during the Roman Imperial period where we report an abrupt population-wide shift to ~50% admixture with eastern Mediterranean ancestry. Finally, we identify northern European components appearing in central Italy during the Early Middle Ages, which thus formed the genetic landscape of present-day Italian populations.

[Token]

Opinions? We saw the same conclusions in the Ancient Rome paper so it is nothing new. Italians seems to be a mixture of Iron Age Italians and all sorts of Mediterraneans from across the Roman Empire plus some post-Roman Germanic admixture in varying proportions depending on the region.

[gixajo]

Fantastic.

[J. Ketch]

There was some unclearness in the Moots paper that led people to think the mass East Med migration into Italy may have begun way back into the Republican Era, or even earlier. It's helpful to know that they were indeed mostly Imperial blow-ins.

[Rethel]

During the Iron Age, we detect a component of Indo-European-associated steppe ancestry and the lack of recent Anatolian admixture among the putative non-Indo-European-speaking Etruscans.

And now:
1. Light appearance of some Etruscians is perfectly understandable.
2. It is another from plenty proofs of Indoeuropeans being transmitters of lightness.
3. Many clear indoeuropean words are understandable - especially those celtic-like are impressive.
4. Indoeuropean linguistic theories are back on the table.

[Token]

There was some unclearness in the Moots paper that led people to think the mass East Med migration into Italy may have begun way back into the Republican Era, or even earlier. It's helpful to know that they were indeed mostly Imperial blow-ins.

Yeah, and it shows that the impact wasn't just restricted to Rome as some have suggested (although anyone with two brain cells would've been able to figure that out by looking at modern-day Italians). Hopefully they will be able to tell what exactly are the sources of the eastern Mediterranean ancestry.

[Leto]

They were a based civilization. Notice the familiar symbol and please don't report me for hate speech.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e8/Etruscan_pendant_with_swastika_symbols_Bolsena_Ita ly_700_BCE_to_650_BCE.jpg/1125px-Etruscan_pendant_with_swastika_symbols_Bolsena_Ita ly_700_BCE_to_650_BCE.jpg

Etruscan pendant with swastika symbols from Bolsena, Italy, 700–650 BC. Louvre

[Token]

And now:
1. Light appearance of some Etruscians is perfectly understandable.
2. It is another from plenty proofs of Indoeuropeans being transmitters of lightness.
3. Many clear indoeuropean words are understandable - especially those celtic-like are impressive.
4. Indoeuropean linguistic theories are back on the table.

That blond and red hair come from Indo-Europeans is hardly debatable. The earliest carriers of the presently most prevalent red hair genes all come from IE steppe cultures. The earliest blond individual is the fully ANE Afontova Gora 3 from southern Siberia.

[Rethel]

That blond and red hair come from Indo-European is hardly debatable. The earliest carriers of the presently most prevalent red hair genes all come from IE steppe cultures. The earliest blond individual is the fully ANE Afontova Gora 3 from southern Siberia.

Today started another thread showing, that some still have a hard time to deal with that.

[Leto]

That blond and red hair come from Indo-European is hardly debatable. The earliest carriers of the presently most prevalent red hair genes all come from IE steppe cultures. The earliest blond individual is the fully ANE Afontova Gora 3 from southern Siberia.
So the Steppe basically shaped what would later be called the white race like nothing else.

[Luso]

So the Steppe basically shaped what would later be called the white race like nothing else.

no such thing. Completely made-up concept, we are too mixed in different ways to even want to attach a label like that... maybe if we all were still just steppe, sure lol.

[Rethel]

So the Steppe basically shaped what would later be called the white race like nothing else.

Not steppe, but EHG, which is the original basic white component, and the original Indoeuropean society before Corded, Yamnaya and other co-cultures. The newest researches don't support a big influence of steppoids except the steppe and maybe Balkans, but steppe-like au comes from different Indoeuropeans, as I was saying since a long time.

[Leto]

no such thing. Completely made-up concept, we are too mixed in different ways to even want to attach a label like that... maybe if we all were still just steppe, sure lol.
Get out of my face, Luser. Go and torture yourself a little more by asking trolls to classify your swarthy ass. That's what you've been doing here since day one - mental self-torture because you don't feel comfortable in your own skin and they're using it to the full.

[Luso]

Get out of my face, Luser. Go and torture yourself a little more by asking trolls to classify your swarthy ass. That's what you've been doing here since day one - mental self-torture because you don't feel comfortable in your own skin and they're using it to the full.

LOL, keep projecting you ugly shit. You are nothing but a whiny hypocrite and that's all you'll ever be. Your passtime comprises of you sitting on reddit 23andMe threads jerking off to people who fit your "white" fetish. You are a fucking LOSER pathetic. You don't read studies like these to gain knowledge but to see if it fits your confirmation bias of "white race" and that's the icing on the cake for ya... maybe soon you can start writing the new Mein Kampf in your Mongol tongue rtard.

[Leto]

LOL, keep projecting you ugly shit. You are nothing but a whiny hypocrite and that's all you'll ever be. Your passtime comprises of you sitting on reddit 23andMe threads jerking off to people who fit your "white" fetish. You are a fucking LOSER pathetic.
I'm not on Reddit but okay. Don't quote me again, dipshit, and I'll be fine with that.

[Luso]

I'm not on Reddit but okay. Don't quote me again, dipshit, and I'll be fine with that.

I will quote you again :cool: you are on reddit, stormfront, and probably in red rooms selling russian child porn for all I know-- you seem like the type to do that. But anyway, you always have come off as a white obsessed moron. One of those anthropological tin-headed pseudo manbabies who look at types of research such as this to confirm a "white race", which is beyond sad... it's laughable. But you do you! And yes you definitely sit on reddit, how else did you carry that "23andme from reddit" thread to over 100 or so pages? YOu enjoy posting those exotic types and presuming their fake too, which was a pretty cute :rolleyes: pasttime of yours ngl.

[Token]

I will quote you again :cool: you are on reddit, stormfront, and probably in red rooms selling russian child porn for all I know-- you seem like the type to do that. But anyway, you always have come off as a white obsessed moron. One of those anthropological tin-headed pseudo manbabies who look at types of research such as this to confirm a "white race", which is beyond sad... it's laughable. But you do you! And yes you definitely sit on reddit, how else did you carry that "23andme from reddit" thread to over 100 or so pages? YOu enjoy posting those exotic types and presuming their fake too, which was a pretty cute :rolleyes: pasttime of yours ngl.

Stop derailing, you can curse each other privately. The Genetics section is for serious discussions.

[Jana]

Were Etruscans genetically like early Italics/Latins?

[Token]

Were Etruscans genetically like early Italics/Latins?

They were very similar based on the available samples, and the new ones will likely not be any different. There is a layer of toponyms in Etruscan territory which made some linguists suggest that Etruscan may have entered Italy after Italics. Maybe the Etruscans were just Italic language-shifters? The relationship between Alpine Rhaetian and Etruscan on one hand and Lemnian and Etruscan on the other is quite puzzling. Either Etruscan came to Italy from the Aegean (the most accepted hypothesis) or vice-versa.

[Leto]

So the Steppe basically shaped what would later be called the white race like nothing else.
All I was gonna say is that the Steppe played a defining role in the formation of modern Europe. "White" may be subjective and not always precise but usually people understand what it means, some just prefer to obfuscate it for whatever reason. When it's necessary white is a real thing, when it's inconvenient it becomes an imaginary one. We all know that game all too well.

[Leto]

They were very similar based on the available samples, and the new ones will likely not be any different. There is a layer of toponyms in Etruscan territory which made some linguists suggest that Etruscan may have entered Italy after Italics. Maybe the Etruscans were just Italic language-shifters? The relationship between Alpine Rhaetian and Etruscan on one hand and Lemnian and Etruscan on the other is quite puzzling. Either Etruscan came to Italy from the Aegean (the most accepted hypothesis) or vice-versa.
I guess they could've become the Basques of Italy. Too bad they didn't survive.

[Nanushka]

There is a blog with interesting resources asserting that the origin of the Etruscan is from the Pelasgians, a branch of Scythians and they were non-IE:

https://tarihvearkeoloji.blogspot.com/2014/02/etruskler-etruscans.html

[Hamilcar]

What pushed so many west asians to settle in italy during the imperial era ? Also weren't some roman authors complaining about the massive presence of levantines in Italy ? (if someone got the source please post it)

[Hamilcar]

All I was gonna say is that the Steppe played a defining role in the formation of modern Europe. "White" may be subjective and not always precise but usually people understand what it means, some just prefer to obfuscate it for whatever reason. When it's necessary white is a real thing, when it's inconvenient it becomes an imaginary one. We all know that game all too well.

They played that role too in many different regions outside of Europe

[Rethel]

What pushed so many west asians to settle in italy during the imperial era ? Also weren't some roman authors complaining about the massive presence of levantines in Italy ? (if someone got the source please post it)

Because Italy was the center of the Empire, so logically, people were moving to the center.
The same you can ask, why so many people live in Moscow, New York or London and neighbouhoods.

Italy at the time had at least 6,000,000 people. The city of Rome had 1,000,000. Most people
were getting into the city and close areas. Only this fact could shaped the demography of all
penninsula. Italy, with Cisalpinia, is not so huge country, in addition she's quite closed by the
mountains and sea. So, what goes there usually remains and spread among the whole area.

Another source of foreigners were slaves, who only in Italy (before the Imperial era had even
started) contained 20%. Later, in Imperial times, this figure was twice higher, close to 50%.

So you have an answer.

[MechtoidAfalouHG]

Who gives a fuck what language they spoke? Did Etruscans have E-V13 or not?

[Hamilcar]

Because Italy was the center of the Empire, so logically, people were moving to the center.
The same you can ask, why so many people live in Moscow, New York or London and neighbouhoods.

Italy at the time has at least 6,000,000 people. The city of Rome had 1,000,000. Most people
were getting into the city and close areas. Only this fact could shaped the demography of all
penninsula. Italy, with Cisalpinia, is not so huge country, in addition she's quite closed by the
mountains and sea. So, what goes there usually remains and spread among the whole area.

Another source of foreigners were slaves, who only in Italy (before the Imperial era had even
started) contained 20%. Later, in Imperial times, this figure was twice higher, close to 50%.

So you have an answer.

That doesn't really resolve the problem because I hope you're at least aware that the roman empire wasn't only about italy and west asia. Also I don't see why would most slaves be levantines while most battles were fought along the northern limes.

[Rethel]

That doesn't really resolve the problem because I hope you're at least aware that the roman empire wasn't only about italy and west asia. Also I don't see why would most slaves be levantines while most battles were fought along the northern limes.

Because the slavery was much, much more common there, and, the population of the East
was unpropotionaly higher and, more important, more dense, that this which was on the West.

And btw, dominate genes do not even have to be in majority to dominate over recessive ones.

And you should also add to all of that local pre-indoeuropean people, plus local preindoeuropean part from
such countries like Spain and Gaul, which also was present even among the people moving from the West.

Plus add to this people, who migrated in later centuries — through 500 years of existance of the Empire
people were constantly coming to Italy, and even later. Probably many people moved to Italy also when
muslims conquered Africa and Near East, and later Anatolia and Balkans.

[Arūnas]

Eto Russkiye - eot

[zebruh]

That blond and red hair come from Indo-Europeans is hardly debatable. The earliest carriers of the presently most prevalent red hair genes all come from IE steppe cultures. The earliest blond individual is the fully ANE Afontova Gora 3 from southern Siberia.Indo europeans?
Red hair and blonde hair existed way before indo europeans.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210606/ac017a0514454b5bcaeafa282b1ee30f.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210606/14437cac64b70f419ca47b880740fc73.jpg

[Rethel]

Indo europeans?

Some of them yes. Both groups have european admix, and a part of them are R-men.
The different thing is, what their colour is. Officially is original, but I wouldn't be surrprize if it isn't.


Red hair and blonde hair existed way before indo europeans.

Surely existed in common genetic pool of humanity, BUT Indoeuropeans are the only ones, who preserved it.
Other groups obviously, if had it, then did lost it at the very beginning, and you can't even know it, because
all what can be researched, these are allready developed peoples in their original inbred races. And there is
nothing, what would suggest, that light traces were common — quite opposite, it wasn't.

[JamesBond007]

Opinions? We saw the same conclusions in the Ancient Rome paper so it is nothing new. Italians seems to be a mixture of Iron Age Italians and all sorts of Mediterraneans from across the Roman Empire plus some post-Roman Germanic admixture in varying proportions depending on the region.

Sorry, don't really care. I of course heard of course heard of the Etruscans historically but Rome and modern day America (based on Rome) have to be some of the most overblown overrated civilizations of all time. Do you want to take on rising China ? Ancient Greece or the British empire are the models to choose from IMHO.

Also, of course modern Italy obviously as a civilizational model can't defeat China as well. That goes without saying as it is absurd.

[Token]

Indo europeans?
Red hair and blonde hair existed way before indo europeans.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210606/ac017a0514454b5bcaeafa282b1ee30f.jpg
Australoid blondism is genetically completely unrelated to Eurasian blondism, which is of ANE in origin.

[zebruh]

Australoid blondism is genetically completely unrelated to Eurasian blondism, which is of ANE in origin.

Doubt it. Both are blonde.

[Token]

Doubt it. Both are blonde.

Facts are facts. (https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/case-closed-blonde-melanesians-understood) Different mutations, different origins.

[Flashball]

Do you have the study samples?

[J. Ketch]

What pushed so many west asians to settle in italy during the imperial era ? Also weren't some roman authors complaining about the massive presence of levantines in Italy ? (if someone got the source please post it)


It is that the city is become Greek, Quirites, that I cannot tolerate; and yet how small the proportion even of the dregs of Greece! Syrian Orontes has long since flowed into the Tiber, and brought with it its language, morals, and the crooked harps [...]

Juvenal
Satire III: On the City of Rome c. 118 CE

[zebruh]

Facts are facts. (https://www.discovermagazine.com/the-sciences/case-closed-blonde-melanesians-understood) Different mutations, different origins.Ok, blondism in austrailian aborigines is probably older.

[Rethel]

is probably older.

You can't know it. Noone can. Why to make such empty assumption from thin air?

[Token]

Ok, blondism in austrailian aborigines is probably older.

Afontova Gora 3 - the oldest individual carrying the Eurasian blond hair mutation we are aware of - is dated to the Upper Paleolithic by radiocarbon dating.


In 2017, direct AMS dating revealed that Afontova Gora 3 is dated to around 16,130-15,749 BP

Phenotypic analysis shows that Afontova Gora 3 carries the derived rs12821256 allele associated with blond hair color in Europeans, making Afontova Gora 3 the earliest individual known to carry this derived allele.

Until we find an Australian aborigine older than that carrying the gene for aboriginal blond hair, there is no reason to assume that their mutation is older.

[Token]

You can't know it. Noone can. Why to make such empty assumption from thin air?

Jealousness, clearly.

[zebruh]

Jealousness, clearly.Not jealous, just shit posting.

Its not like it would change my life if abos or europeans had blonde hair first.
But austrailian aborigenes are far older then ane peoples.

[Rethel]

But austrailian aborigenes are far older then ane peoples.

First recorded case of Aborigens comes from the year 1770. Nothing sure is known before that.
ANE it is just 3-4 year old castizo freckled boy, and everything what is similar to him, who lived
in unknown time long ago. Even comparing this is weird, the more conclusions like you did.

[Token]

The full paper is out!
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abi7673

Here are some interesting stuff:


During the first half of the first millennium CE, we observe a marked shift in PCA space of all studied individuals toward the Near Eastern cline (Fig. 4A), distributed across the genetic space occupied by present-day southeastern European populations. We grouped nonoutlier individuals dating between 1 and 500 CE into the “C.Italy_Imperial” cluster (table S2A). Formal f4-tests reveal its higher affinity than C.Italy_Etruscan to ancient groups from Iran, Africa, and the Near East (table S2C). We then used qpAdm to quantify this group’s ancestry components, where C.Italy_Imperial was modeled as a mixture of the sources C.Italy_Etruscan and 158 published European and Near Eastern genomes from the Bronze and Iron Ages. As a result, the models that were found to fit the data best are those with a 38 to 59% contribution from Levantine or Anatolian populations into the local/preexisting C.Italy_Etruscan gene pool (Fig. 4B and table S4D). Substantial gene flow from the eastern Mediterranean was also reported in ancient individuals from Rome dated to the Imperial period (17). Despite our limited number of data points from the first five centuries CE, the new results suggest that the contribution of nonlocal ancestry in Rome was larger than in Etruria (Fig. 4A). However, this large-scale genetic impact of incoming groups during the Imperial period was not only limited to the metropolitan area around Rome but also extended into the neighboring and more distant regions considered here.

Regarding the last temporal interval of our ancient genomic transect (500 to 1000 CE), we observe that individuals grouped in the “C.Italy_Early.Medieval” cluster are generally shifted toward central European groups compared to C.Italy_Imperial and largely overlap with present-day populations from central Italy (TSI.SG) (Fig. 5A) (30). Using f4-tests, we can show that this transition is confirmed by a reduced affinity of C.Italy_Early.Medieval toward eastern Mediterranean populations compared to C.Italy_Imperial (table S2D). Moreover, the C.Italy_Early.Medieval cluster can be modeled successfully in qpAdm as a mixture between the preceding C.Italy_Imperial group and Late Antique or Medieval groups from northern and eastern Europe (among the 59 populations tested) in estimated proportions of 60 to 90% and 10 to 40%, respectively (table S4E). Notably, among the best supported models are those that feature individuals associated with Longobard cemeteries from Hungary and northern Italy (31). If we specifically restrict the analyses to those Longobard-related individuals carrying unadmixed northern European genetic ancestry (Piedmont_N.Longobard), then we obtain a ~20% contribution to the C.Italy_Early.Medieval cluster (Fig. 5B). This finding is consistent with a genetic input of northern European ancestry in central Italy during the Longobard period. However, the influence of other Germanic tribes in Italy like the Ostrogoths could also have enhanced the observed genomic shift.

So both substantial Near Eastern and substantial North European contribution is confirmed for Central Italians.

https://www.science.org/cms/10.1126/sciadv.abi7673/asset/2cf6c609-4011-4585-9018-2ac1d79218ac/assets/images/large/sciadv.abi7673-f5.jpg

https://www.science.org/cms/10.1126/sciadv.abi7673/asset/a2c21dab-cff4-4076-9209-e4daed364e8d/assets/images/large/sciadv.abi7673-f4.jpg

[J. Ketch]

Massive population turnover that deep into Italy. Germanic influence is yuge, Tuscans would probably be like Calabrians without it. Much food for thought.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Massive population turnover that deep into Italy. Germanic influence is yuge, Tuscans would probably be like Calabrians without it. Much food for thought.

Tuscans have more EEF than both Calabrians and Germanics, so you can't just model them as Imperial Romans + Germanics. Unfortunately it's not that simple, there are other factors behind their ethnogenesis, including greater Italic/Etruscan ancestry.


<colgroup><col style="width:48pt" width="64" span="9"> </colgroup><tbody>
Target
Distance
TUR_Barcin_N
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
WHG
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
Levant_PPNB
IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
MAR_Taforalt



Italic
0.02739815
63.2
25.6
11.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


Italian_Tuscany
0.01830718
54.4
31.0
4.0
6.6
3.6
0.0
0.4


Gallic
0.03103437
46.4
39.2
14.4
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


Italian_Calabria
0.01802574
45.6
20.8
0.4
15.6
11.8
3.4
1.4


Germanic
0.04615022
35.6
49.2
15.2
0.0
0.0
0.0
0.0


</tbody>

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Even Samnites and Etruscans from places as far south as Campania will cluster like the Italics, I guess that's no surprise now.

Dodecad K12b of the samples, thanks to Jovialis from Eupedia:


:Casenovole(Grosseto_Tuscany):CSN012,7.01,0,10.55, 0,41.84,29.45,0,0,0,0,11.15,0
:Chiusi(Siena_Tuscany):ETR004,17.44,0,0,0,19.59,19 .63,0,0,11.7,0,31.64,0
:Vetulonia(Grosseto_Tuscany)_750-413BCE:VET011,0,0,6.57,0,51.11,17.17,0,2.72,3.32,0 ,19.1,0
C.Italy_Early.Medieval:Chiusi(Siena_Tuscany)775-945CE:ETR007,5.51,0,2.37,1.28,30.11,25.01,0,0,8.81 ,0,26.92,0
C.Italy_Early.Medieval:Chiusi(Siena_Tuscany)_772-888CE:ETR006,3.87,1.22,0,0,39.39,15.01,0,0,12.67,0 ,26.45,1.39
C.Italy_Early.Medieval:Chiusi(Siena_Tuscany)_997-1149CE:ETR003,10.36,0,2.55,0,30.58,19.47,0,0,10.98 ,0,25.66,0.41
C.Italy_Early.Medieval:Chiusi(Siena_Tuscany)C899-1016CE:ETR013,6.64,0.06,1.86,0,35.44,14.98,0,0,9.5 1,0,31.24,0.28
C.Italy_Early.Medieval:PoggioPelliccia(Grosseto_Tu scany)_772-960CE:POP001,4.72,0.15,0.86,0,35.02,19.76,0,0,8.74 ,1.36,28.84,0.55
C.Italy_Early.Medieval:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_72 9-942CE:TAQ003,5.6,0,2.14,1.3,29.31,17.09,0.1,0.93,1 1.36,0,31.59,0.58
C.Italy_Early.Medieval:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_89 5-1016CE:TAQ011,6.51,0.15,1.38,0.03,33.17,19.02,0,1. 09,10.21,0,27.5,0.96
C.Italy_Early.Medieval:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_89 9-1021CE:TAQ009,4.13,0.23,2.43,0.82,33.16,19.69,0.14 ,0,9.54,0,28.81,1.06
C.Italy_Early.Medieval:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_10 18-1151CE:TAQ022,5.66,0,2.84,0,34.54,19.74,2.22,0,6.3 4,0,28.11,0.54
C.Italy_Early.Medieval_ETR014:Chiusi(Siena_Tuscany )_977-1022CE:ETR014,3.51,0,2.87,0,27.31,14.86,0.51,0,14. 53,0,36.4,0
C.Italy_Early.Medieval_undated:Chiusi(Siena_Tuscan y):ETR010,4.58,0.05,1.08,0.22,37.3,17.15,0.08,0,9. 4,0,29.53,0.6
C.Italy_Early.Medieval_undated:Chiusi(Siena_Tuscan y):ETR012,17.52,1.96,0,0,41.58,12.98,3.45,0.35,5.7 4,0,16.42,0
C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_391-207BCE:TAQ007,3.25,0.65,8.19,0,33.36,6.55,0.82,0,1 3.72,0.07,31.87,1.52
C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_396-216BCE:TAQ023,0.11,0,9.86,0,38.6,11.68,0.88,1.34,1 0.18,0,26.04,1.31
C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr:Vetulonia(Grosseto_Tuscany)_3 72-204BCE:VET008,0.41,0,8.27,0,38.29,9.06,0,1.75,12.7 8,0.04,28.42,0.99
C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu:CampigliadeiFoci(Siena_Tuscan y)_770-520BCE:CAM002,4.72,0.03,0,1.59,40.47,34.19,0,0,4.6 4,0,13.94,0.44
C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu:Vetulonia(Grosseto_Tuscany)_3 60-200BCE:VET005,7.72,0.55,0,0,43.13,37.83,0,1.41,1.6 1,0,7.74,0
C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu_related:Casenovole(Grosseto_T uscany)_427-265BCE:CSN002,0,0.36,0,0,41.12,32.35,0,0,0,0,26.17 ,0
C.Italy_Etruscan:CampigliadeiFoci(Siena_Tuscany)_7 70-540BCE:CAM003,0.93,0.04,0.79,0,49.21,23.83,0,0,7,0 .18,16.98,1.04
C.Italy_Etruscan:CampigliadeiFoci(Siena_Tuscany)_7 80-540BCE:CAM001,1.38,0.19,1.2,0,47.62,24.58,0,0,6.88 ,0,17.87,0.27
C.Italy_Etruscan:Casenovole(Grosseto_Tuscany)_380-204BCE:CSN003,0.97,0.01,2,0,49.14,21.97,1.05,0,7.9 5,0.53,15.93,0.45
C.Italy_Etruscan:Casenovole(Grosseto_Tuscany)_427-265BCE:CSN009,2.52,0,2.03,0,39.86,27.95,0,0,2.52,0 .43,23.93,0.75
C.Italy_Etruscan:Casenovole(Grosseto_Tuscany)_533-392BCE:CSN006,3.62,0,0,1.53,45.77,24.02,0.29,0,4.9 ,0,19.6,0.27
C.Italy_Etruscan:Chiusi(Siena_Tuscany)_805-774BCE:ETR005,2,0,0,1.54,45.54,20.52,0.17,0,9.35,1 .02,18.73,1.13
C.Italy_Etruscan:MaglianoinToscana(Grosseto_Tuscan y)_790-550BCE:MAG001,0.84,0,0,0,47.05,24.88,0.37,0.08,3.4 6,0.47,22.84,0.02
C.Italy_Etruscan:Marsilianad'Albegna(Grosseto_Tusc any)_804-557BCE:MAS004,1.12,0,0.85,0,44.63,29.23,0,0,1.36,1 .35,21.46,0
C.Italy_Etruscan:PoggioRenzo(Siena_Tuscany)_772-436BCE:PRZ002,0,0,2.6,0.54,47.1,27.43,0,0,4.06,1.0 6,17.2,0
C.Italy_Etruscan:PoggioRenzo(Siena_Tuscany)_794-543BCE:PRZ001,1.55,0.11,0,0,48.41,23.78,0,0,6.08,0 .13,19.22,0.71
C.Italy_Etruscan:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_103BCE-54CE:TAQ002,0,0,1.15,0.26,46.51,23.88,0,0,5.81,0,2 1.27,1.12
C.Italy_Etruscan:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_346-51BCE:TAQ015,1.72,0,2.42,0,46.31,21.99,0,0,6.46,0. 63,19.66,0.81
C.Italy_Etruscan:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_356-96BCE:TAQ024,1.55,0.2,4.01,0.27,46.92,21.83,0,0.36 ,4.57,0,20.29,0
C.Italy_Etruscan:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_358-98BCE:TAQ019,0.49,0,2.18,0,47.66,24.5,0.17,0,5.48, 0.04,19.27,0.21
C.Italy_Etruscan:Vetulonia(Grosseto_Tuscany)_750-406BCE:VET001,1.52,0,2.24,1.15,42.15,23.87,0,1.18, 6.3,0,21.57,0
C.Italy_Etruscan:Vetulonia(Grosseto_Tuscany)_788-545BCE:VET010,0,0,4.61,0.76,48.22,21.92,0.27,0,3.5 3,0,20.12,0.57
C.Italy_Etruscan:Vetulonia(Grosseto_Tuscany)_790-550BCE:VET002,0.77,1.24,2.59,0,48.74,18.77,0,0,7.8 ,0.08,20.03,0
C.Italy_Etruscan:Vetulonia(Grosseto_Tuscany)_790-550BCE:VEU001,0,0,1.86,2.69,45.76,22.07,0,0.83,3.7 9,0,23.01,0
C.Italy_Etruscan:Vetulonia(Grosseto_Tuscany)_800-590BCE:VET003_4,1.33,0,2.66,0,47.08,21.2,0.25,0.26 ,7.04,0.15,20.03,0
C.Italy_Etruscan:Vetulonia(Grosseto_Tuscany)_806-599BCE:VET007,0,0,2.57,0.68,51.02,20.09,0.22,0,6.7 4,0.42,17.63,0.63
C.Italy_Etruscan:Volterra(Pisa_Tuscany)_200-60BCE:VOL001,0.94,0,1.77,0,44.5,24.66,0.61,0.03,5. 61,0,21.4,0.48
C.Italy_Etruscan_MAS001:Marsilianad'Albegna(Grosse to_Tuscany)_350-100BCE:MAS001,7.2,0.84,4.18,0,26.73,30.23,1.6,0.6, 6.25,1.12,21.08,0.18
C.Italy_Etruscan_related:Casenovole(Grosseto_Tusca ny)_380-204BCE:CSN010,4.43,0.27,3.49,0,40.36,31.59,0,0,5.3 3,1.81,11.48,1.25
C.Italy_Etruscan_related:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_ 346-51BCE:TAQ005,1.39,0.44,5.14,0,46.29,17.75,0.22,0.3 3,8.86,0.41,18.68,0.49
C.Italy_Etruscan_related:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_ 346-51BCE:TAQ018,0,0,0.47,0,48.53,20.84,0.43,0,6.5,1.4 3,20.91,0.89
C.Italy_Etruscan_related:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_ 356-96BCE:TAQ001,2.36,0,4.12,0.57,47.15,23.95,0,0,4.6, 0,17.25,0
C.Italy_Etruscan_related:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_ 356-96BCE:TAQ017,4.08,0,1.96,0,48.92,20.11,0,0,5.6,0,1 9.12,0.21
C.Italy_Etruscan_UDC_P:Chiostraccio(Siena_Tuscany) _174-53BCE:UDC_P,0,0,4.31,0,52.14,29.39,0,0,0.89,0,13.2 2,0.04
C.Italy_Etruscan_undated:Casenovole(Grosseto_Tusca ny):CSN001,0.74,0,1.6,0.73,46.5,23.83,0,0,7.19,0,1 9.25,0.16
C.Italy_Etruscan_undated:Casenovole(Grosseto_Tusca ny):CSN004,1.49,0,2.17,0.71,51.75,19.41,0.13,0,5.2 ,0,18.21,0.93
C.Italy_Etruscan_undated:Casenovole(Grosseto_Tusca ny):CSN005,1.48,0,4.65,0,39.23,28.19,0.65,0,6.11,0 .54,19.16,0
C.Italy_Etruscan_undated:Casenovole(Grosseto_Tusca ny):CSN007,0,0,0,0.5,50.29,20.45,0,0,10.86,0,17.91 ,0
C.Italy_Etruscan_undated:Casenovole(Grosseto_Tusca ny):CSN008,4.93,0,0,0.4,43.71,27.95,0,0,4.16,0,18. 84,0
C.Italy_Etruscan_undated:Casenovole(Grosseto_Tusca ny):CSN013,4.87,0,0.54,0,45.93,21.96,0.41,0,5.92,0 .25,19.55,0.57
C.Italy_Etruscan_undated:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio): TAQ008,4.27,1.3,0.28,0.84,49.67,21.5,0,0,3.99,0,17 .53,0.63
C.Italy_Etruscan_undated:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio): TAQ010,0,0,1.32,0.05,48.43,24.81,0.71,0,4.04,0,20. 41,0.24
C.Italy_Etruscan_undated:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio): TAQ012,3.32,0,1.79,0,51.8,17.96,0.72,0,7.3,0,16.79 ,0.33
C.Italy_Etruscan_undated:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio): TAQ013,2.83,1.64,1.78,0,46.46,21.33,0,0,6.68,0,19. 04,0.23
C.Italy_Etruscan_undated:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio): TAQ016,2.43,0,1.67,0,46.91,24.12,0.84,0,5.34,0,18. 06,0.63
C.Italy_Etruscan_undated:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_ :TAQ004,1.71,0.66,0.95,0.36,48.5,23.89,0,0,5.59,0, 17.87,0.48
C.Italy_Etruscan_undated:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_ :TAQ006,1.18,0,3.59,0,42.96,25.05,0.15,0,2.83,0,24 .24,0
C.Italy_Imperial:Marsilianad'Albegna(Grosseto_Tusc any)_240-380CE:MAS002,6.49,1.52,3.63,0,23.56,7.82,0,0.48,18 .33,0.02,38.16,0
C.Italy_Imperial:Marsilianad'Albegna(Grosseto_Tusc any)_400-530CE:MAS003,2.81,0,8.6,1.47,34.71,11.66,0,1.28,11 .86,0,26.84,0.76
C.Italy_Imperial:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_89-236CE:TAQ020,9.02,0.66,1.49,0.5,34.13,18.73,0.12,0 ,7.43,0,27.92,0
C.Italy_Imperial:Tarquinia(Viterbo_Lazio)_262-424CE:TAQ021,3.74,0,2.51,0,33.22,11.47,2.01,0,12.6 2,0,34.44,0
S.Italy_Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_650-763CE:VEN005,6.66,0,4.28,1.53,32.55,10.92,0,0,10.8 6,0.37,32.83,0
S.Italy_Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_650-763CE:VEN006,8.51,0.54,5.29,0.22,27.14,16.32,0,0,9 .76,1.99,30.08,0.16
S.Italy_Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_650-800CE:VEN001,5.14,0,3.87,0.01,28.18,17.6,0,0,11.33 ,2.38,29.77,1.73
S.Italy_Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_660-766CE:VEN008,4.55,6.58,0,0,36.17,16.54,2.72,0,8.77 ,0,23.04,1.63
S.Italy_Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_670-775CE:VEN012,2.86,0,1.41,0.17,24.58,14.71,0,1.75,1 2.7,5.77,36.03,0.03
S.Italy_Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_670-775CE:VEN013,7.7,0,5.12,0,28.43,14.81,0,0,10.94,1. 22,30.32,1.45
S.Italy_Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_670-775CE:VEN014,12.68,0,5.83,0,33.04,0,0,0.24,17.71,1 .35,28.74,0.42
S.Italy_Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_670-775CE:VEN015,7.16,0,3.85,0.73,28.62,13.96,0.39,0,1 3.73,0,30.9,0.64
S.Italy_Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_672-800CE:VEN016,6.56,0,6.02,0,25.63,16.98,0,0,13.65,0 .44,30.73,0
S.Italy_Venosa:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_672-800CE:VEN018,9.33,0,3.69,0,27.33,17.18,0,0,19.59,0 ,20.74,2.14
S.Italy_Venosa_related:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_ 660-766CE:VEN009,4.96,0,10.9,0.28,29.02,16.26,0,3.03,6 .57,0,28.99,0
S.Italy_Venosa_related:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_ 670-775CE:VEN010,16.14,0,2.12,1.09,37.1,15.42,0,0.05,1 3.2,0,14.88,0
S.Italy_Venosa_related:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_ 672-800CE:VEN017,1.13,1.55,0,0.12,32.91,17.47,3.75,0,1 2.37,3.07,27.62,0
S.Italy_Venosa_related:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_ 672-800CE:VEN021,8.65,0,0.51,3.3,17.54,14.06,0,2.43,21 .68,1.47,30.37,0
S.Italy_Venosa_related:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_ 672-800CE:VEN022,7.04,0,0,5.28,15.13,25.83,0,0.13,20.8 2,0,25.77,0
S.Italy_Venosa_VEN002:Venosa(Potenza_Basilicata)_6 50-800CE:VEN002,2.79,8.01,0,12.59,16.3,9.93,3.89,0.01 ,6.34,27.43,12.71,0

[Leto]

Can someone model European Jews with those ancient Italians and other stuff? I'd really like to know their actual Middle Eastern percentage. It's kinda relevant to the topic because they were from the Roman Empire. Use Iron Age Levantine samples.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Can someone model European Jews with those ancient Italians and other stuff? I'd really like to know their actual Middle Eastern percentage. It's kinda relevant to the topic because they were from the Roman Empire. Use Iron Age Levantine samples.

Compare their percentage of Levant_PPNB with that of some ancient Levant groups and you have the answer.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23847-How-much-Middle-Eastern-ancestry-do-Ashkenazim-have&p=803169#post803169

[Dr_Maul]

Interesting that it seems most or all of MENA related ancestry is Roman, and not Early Medieval?

[Leto]

Compare their percentage of Levant_PPNB with that of some ancient Levant groups and you have the answer.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23847-How-much-Middle-Eastern-ancestry-do-Ashkenazim-have&p=803169#post803169
I don't wanna talk to you but okay. To be clear, by "Middle Eastern" I mean Biblical Israelite ancestry, not some obscure pre-historic stuff. There's no way they are only 20% Middle Eastern as that model suggests. You need samples from 1000 BC through 1 AD. That's what I'm interested in.

[Faklon]

They look between modern Nothern Italians and Sardinians according to this.

https://www.science.org/cms/10.1126/sciadv.abi7673/asset/96934527-5475-4822-954e-fe5841d708ab/assets/images/large/sciadv.abi7673-f2.jpg

Still close to modern Central and Northern Italian whose shift doesn't seem that Near-Eastern as in Levant. Caucasian/CHG of some sort.

[Lucas]

The full paper is out!
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abi7673
]



This is nice:)


If we specifically restrict the analyses to those Longobard-related individuals carrying unadmixed northern European genetic ancestry (Piedmont_N.Longobard), then we obtain a ~20% contribution to the C.Italy_Early.Medieval cluster (Fig. 5B). This finding is consistent with a genetic input of northern European ancestry in central Italy during the Longobard period. However, the influence of other Germanic tribes in Italy like the Ostrogoths could also have enhanced the observed genomic shift.


Continuing our genomic transect into the Early Middle Ages (500 to 1000 CE), we observe an additional genetic transition in some of the former Etruria territories through the spread of northern European–related ancestries. Admixture models are consistent with this genetic component being introduced from previously published individuals associated with the Longobard culture, although other cultural groups may have contributed as well. Thus, settlers expanding across large parts of the Italian peninsula after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire and the establishment of the Longobard Kingdom might have left a traceable impact on the genetic landscape of central Italy.

[Lucas]

Simply Near Easterners migrated to Italy in mass number. So only because of Goths and Lombards it was reversed to status quo ante. In the north at least.
So no blablabla neolithic ancestry. It is on Sardinia.


The genetic replacement of ~50% of the preceding Etruscan-related gene pool was likely influenced by the movement of slaves and possibly soldiers, along with a larger pattern of human mobility from the eastern Mediterranean toward Italy (45–49)


Our new data from Etruria show that the influx of Near Eastern ancestry spread far beyond the greater capital region itself and suggest that this broader pattern of population movement may have affected larger portions of the Italian peninsula.

[Voskos]

Target: Italian_Tuscany
Distance: 224.3988% / 2.24398760
62.2 C.Italy_Etruscan
21.8 I1409_ARE20_Middle_Late_Chalcolithic_Vayots-Dzor_Armenia
16.0 France_IA_NOR4

[Faklon]

Simply Armenoids and Semites migrated to Italy in mass number. So only beacause of Goths and Lombards it was reversed to status quo ante. In the north at least.

Don't know about Armenoids but the shift in the medieval or now doesn't seem Semitic, rather Anatolian or Caucasian. Anatolia was well Romanized sociopolitically in antiquity-medieval.

Goths also don't have the same history with the Lombards who suddenly woke up from Sweden. They had already established themselves in Pannonia for centuries.

[Lucas]

Don't about Armenoids but the shift in the medieval or now doesn't seem Semitic, rather Anatolian or Caucasian. Anatolia was well Romanized sociopolitically in antiquity-medieval.

Goths also don't have the same history with the Lombards who suddenly woke up from Sweden. They had already established themselves in Pannonia for centuries.

Authors said Near Eastern ancestry specifically. Anatolian would be stressed if it would be main but certainly was also present, ok.

Our new data from Etruria show that the influx of Near Eastern ancestry spread far beyond the greater capital region itself and suggest that this broader pattern of population movement may have affected larger portions of the Italian peninsula.

[Faklon]

Authors said Near Eastern ancestry specifically. Anatolian would be stressed if it would be main but certainly was also present, ok.

Near-East is as a simple word as Europe. It looks to be Anatolian, Anatolia was culturally Roman, modern Turkey is full of Roman-era sites and half of the core Christian saints come from there.

Semitic and Gothic, when 30th generation Romanian Goths should be like Swedes, sound more shocking, ok

[Gallop]

Second, after the Bronze Age admixture, the Etruscan-related gene pool remained generally homogeneous for almost 800 years, notwithstanding the sporadic presence of individuals of likely Near Eastern, northern African, and central European origins.

:cool: :whistle:

[Lucas]

Near-East is as a simple word as Europe. It looks to be Anatolian, Anatolia was culturally Roman, modern Turkey is full of Roman-era sites and half of the core Christian saints come from there.

You don't want to use definition from Wikipedia, do you? :cool: Look on map.

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_East

[Dr_Maul]

I don't wanna talk to you but okay. To be clear, by "Middle Eastern" I mean Biblical Israelite ancestry, not some obscure pre-historic stuff. There's no way they are only 20% Middle Eastern as that model suggests. You need samples from 1000 BC through 1 AD. That's what I'm interested in.


Like this?
https://i.ibb.co/nDf7k2Q/a.png

[Leto]

Near-East is as a simple word as Europe. It looks to be Anatolian, Anatolia was culturally Roman, modern Turkey is full of Roman-era sites and half of the core Christian saints come from there.
The entire area between the Maghreb and Iran was viewed very differently back then compared to now. The Tunisian, Libyan and Egyptian coasts were firmly Greco-Roman from pre-Christian times up until the 7th century.

[Faklon]

You don't want to use definition from Wikipedia, do you? :cool: Look on map.

https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_East

Yy, you are a Negropolrebby and you know it.

Gothic kings like Alaric I who were born in the modern Balkans, were Near-Easterners.

So, ultimately they got only Gothic influx. Polrebby logic.

[Leto]

Like this?
https://i.ibb.co/nDf7k2Q/a.png
Thanks, that chart looks pretty good. Only a Sephardic avg is missing. Though 55-60% ME for Eastern Ashkenazim might be a tiny bit too high.

[Lucas]

Yy, you are a Negropolrebby and you know it.

Gothic kings like Alaric I who were born in the modern Balkans, were Near-Easterners.

So, ultimately they got only Gothic influx. Polrebby logic.

YES

https://i.imgur.com/UREWEIH.jpg

[Faklon]

The Tunisian, Libyan and Egyptian coasts were firmly Greco-Roman from pre-Christian times up until the 7th century.

There were cities in these modern countries, in Anatolia it was every city.

[Dr_Maul]

Thanks, that chart looks pretty good. Only a Sephardic avg is missing. Though 55-60% ME for Eastern Ashkenazim might be a tiny bit too high.

Swapping Etruscan with ITA_Rome_Imperial (aka compensating for the Roman East Med admix) brings it down to ~25%, which seems a bit low I think. due to overfit of shared components, academic studies should probably be referred to here

[Flashball]

Are the samples available on the Global 25?

[Lucas]

Campiglia dei Foci (Colle di Val d’Elsa, Siena), n=3
- Geographical coordinates: 43.4134155,11.0742656 (Campiglia dei Foci)
- Radiocarbon dates range (n=3): 780-520 cal BCE
- Analyzed individuals: CAM001, CAM002, CAM003
The three individuals coming from the locality of Campiglia dei Foci were found in 1984 during the excavation of the so-called Pierini Tomb, an Etruscan grave dating back to the Archaic period. The tomb was accidentally discovered during the renovation of a private garden and its excavation was conducted by the Gruppo Archeologico Colligiano, under the supervision of the Soprintendenza Archeologica della Toscana. The Pierini tomb consists of two rectangular chambers separated by a central partition. It represents one of the most significant Etruscan finds in the Valdelsa territory for the peculiarity and state of preservation of the grave goods, which are now conserved at the Civic Museum of Colle Val d’Elsa (116). The archaeological attribution of the tomb to the 7th-6th century BCE is consistent with the radiocarbon dates obtained for the three individuals reported in this study (8th-6th century BCE).

CAM002 (genotype ratio 68%)

Distance to: CAM002
1.04538474 FR_Franche_Comte
1.11351064 FR_Ile-de-France
1.11467136 IT_Aosta
1.13003911 IT_Trentino
1.13219717 IT_Piedmont
1.13266029 FR_Central
1.16167782 FR_Provence
1.19116746 Swiss_German
1.20434556 IT_Veneto
1.22319960 Swiss_Italian

Distance: 7.9333% / 7.93329643
Target: CAM002 | ADC: 0.25x RC
44.0 IT_Trentino
14.8 ES_Andalusia_North
14.5 DE_Nordrhein
12.6 FR_South
8.3 FR_Normandy
5.8 PL_Suwalki

[Lucas]

CAM001
genotype ratio 78%

Distance to: CAM001
1.48265308 IT_Lombardia
1.57368096 Swiss_Italian
1.59205761 FR_Corsica
1.74782269 IT_Liguria
1.78540089 IT_Toscania
1.80142815 Portugal_Norte
1.82216966 IT_Emilia-Romagna
1.90696875 IT_Trentino
2.00182821 ES_Cataluna
2.01821893 IT_Piedmont

Target: CAM001 | ADC: 0.25x RC
61.8 IT_Lombardia
20.2 ES_Cantabria
18.0 IT_central_Sardinian



CAM003 54%

Target: CAM003 | ADC: 0.25x RC
50.4 IT_Lombardia
22.4 ES_Burgos
17.5 IT_southern_Sardinian
9.7 Basques_ES_Gipuzkoa_central


Distance to: CAM003
1.35276296 FR_Corsica
1.43226062 ES_Cataluna
1.45749740 ES_Islas_Baleares
1.48307659 IT_Liguria
1.48350327 ES_Valencia
1.49344802 IT_Lombardia
1.50669485 Portugal_Norte
1.52102227 Portugal_Centro
1.56936434 ES_Galicia
1.58894721 Swiss_Italian

[Ajeje Brazorf]

I don't wanna talk to you but okay. To be clear, by "Middle Eastern" I mean Biblical Israelite ancestry, not some obscure pre-historic stuff. There's no way they are only 20% Middle Eastern as that model suggests. You need samples from 1000 BC through 1 AD. That's what I'm interested in.

Why won't you talk to me? :confused3:

But no, it's clear that we're not just talking about 20%, you have to make a percentage between that figure and the Levantine groups. If the average Jew has 20% Levant_PPNB and Samaritan has 57.8%, that makes Ashkenazi Jews as at most 36% Jewish. As I wrote in the post, depending on what ancient population is being considered, the percentage may decrease or increase.


They look between modern Nothern Italians and Sardinians according to this.

https://www.science.org/cms/10.1126/sciadv.abi7673/asset/96934527-5475-4822-954e-fe5841d708ab/assets/images/large/sciadv.abi7673-f2.jpg

Still close to modern Central and Northern Italian whose shift doesn't seem that Near-Eastern as in Levant. Caucasian/CHG of some sort.

They fall firmly within the Iberian cluster. I think there will be mass suicides on IR lolol

[Lucas]

late-Etruscan necropolis

Casenovole (Civitella Paganico, Grosseto), n=12
- Geographical coordinates: 43.033319, 11.332940
- Radiocarbon dates range (n=6): 530-200 cal BCE


genotype ratio 64%


Distance to: CSN001
1.07674610 IT_Lombardia
1.21727846 FR_Corsica
1.31327748 Swiss_Italian
1.34293251 IT_Toscania
1.37617915 IT_Liguria
1.37624724 IT_Emilia-Romagna
1.54215180 IT_Trentino
1.66358559 FR_Savoie
1.68819930 Portugal_Norte
1.72788155 IT_Piedmont

Target: CSN001 | ADC: 0.25x RC
74.8 IT_Lombardia
10.7 IT_southern_Sardinian
8.6 FR_Savoie
5.9 ES_Burgos


genotype ratio 41%

Distance to: CSN003
1.02598413 IT_Piedmont
1.09820911 Swiss_Italian
1.11246629 FR_Provence
1.25731274 IT_Trentino
1.26321612 FR_Corsica
1.27150257 ES_Cataluna
1.27518650 ES_Galicia
1.28986361 IT_Lombardia
1.29048287 IT_Veneto
1.29672708 PT_Azores



Target: CSN003 | ADC: 0.25x RC
26.3 IT_Lombardia
19.4 IT_central_Sardinian
18.8 FR_Champagne-Ardenne
15.7 ES_Huesca
8.4 Swiss_Italian
6.6 DE_Brandenburg
4.8 Saudi_Arabian

[Voskos]

Is there any substancial Mycenaean or Balkan shift in Etruscans that would explain part of the ''West Asian'' in modern Tuscans? Are we able to measure that even, the populations (Central Italy/Balkans) being exceptionally close?

[Voskos]

780-540 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan R1b1a1b1a1a2 P312
770-520 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu G2a2b2a1 L140/S316
770-540 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan G2a2b2a1a1b L497/S317
- C.Italy_Etruscan_undated - -
427-265 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu_related - -
380-204 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan R1b1a1b1a1a2d1a Z2247
- C.Italy_Etruscan_undated J2b2a1 L283
- C.Italy_Etruscan_undated R1b1a1b1a1a2 P312
533-392 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 L2/S139
- C.Italy_Etruscan_undated - -
- C.Italy_Etruscan_undated - -
427-265 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan R1b1a1b1a1a2 P312
380-204 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan_related R1b1a1b1a1a2d1a Z2247
- - n/a n/a
- C.Italy_Etruscan_undated - -
139-326 CE C.Italy_Imperial - -
997-1149 CE C.Italy_Early.Medieval R1b1a1b1a L51
- - n/a n/a
805-774 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan - -
772-888 CE C.Italy_Early.Medieval - -
775-945 CE C.Italy_Early.Medieval - -
- C.Italy_Early.Medieval_undated - -
- C.Italy_Early.Medieval_undated n/a n/a
899-1016 CE C.Italy_Early.Medieval - -
977-1022 CE C.Italy_Early.Medieval_ETR014 J1a2a1a2 P58/Page8/PF4698
40-190 CE - n/a n/a
407-534 CE C.Italy_Imperial I1 -
790-550 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan R1b1a1b1a1a L151
350-100 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan_MAS001 G2a2b2a1a1c1a1 CTS5990/Z1903
240-380 CE C.Italy_Imperial R1b1a1b1b Z2103
400-530 CE C.Italy_Imperial R1b1a1b M269/PF6517
804-557 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan R1b1a1b1a1 P310
772-960 CE C.Italy_Early.Medieval R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 L2
794-543 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan - -
772-436 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 L2
356-96 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan_related - -
103 BCE-54 CE C.Italy_Etruscan R1b1a1b1a1a2 P312
729-942 CE C.Italy_Early.Medieval - -
- C.Italy_Etruscan_undated R1b1a1b1a1a2b U152
346-51 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan_related R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 L2
- C.Italy_Etruscan_undated G2a2b2a1a1b1 CTS9737/Z1815
391-207 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr - -
- C.Italy_Etruscan_undated - -
899-1021 CE C.Italy_Early.Medieval I1a2a1a1a1a S1954/YSC0000261
- C.Italy_Etruscan_undated R1b1a1b1a1a2 P312
895-1016 CE C.Italy_Early.Medieval - -
- C.Italy_Etruscan_undated - -
- C.Italy_Etruscan_undated R1b1a1b1a1a1 M405/U106/S21
346-51 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan - -
- C.Italy_Etruscan_undated - -
356-96 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan_related R1b1a1b1a L51
346-51 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan_related R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 L2
358-98 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan - -
89-236 CE C.Italy_Imperial J2a1a1a2 Z2229
262-424 CE C.Italy_Imperial J2a1a1a2b1b M319
1018-1151 CE C.Italy_Early.Medieval - -
396-216 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr G2a2b2a1a1c1a1 CTS5990/Z1903
356-96 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan R1b1a1b1a2 PF7589/Z2118
174-53 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan_UDC_P R1b1a1b1a1a2 P312
650-800 CE S.Italy_Venosa J2a1a1a2b2a2b3a L210
650-800 CE S.Italy_Venosa_VEN002 - -
650-763 CE S.Italy_Venosa - -
650-763 CE S.Italy_Venosa J2b2a1 L283
660-766 CE S.Italy_Venosa E1b1b1a1b1 L618
660-766 CE S.Italy_Venosa_related - -
670-775 CE S.Italy_Venosa_related J2b M12
670-775 CE S.Italy_Venosa G2a2b2a1 L140/S316
670-775 CE S.Italy_Venosa J2b2a1 L283
670-775 CE S.Italy_Venosa - -
670-775 CE S.Italy_Venosa - -
672-800 CE S.Italy_Venosa - -
672-800 CE S.Italy_Venosa_related n/a n/a
672-800 CE S.Italy_Venosa - -
672-800 CE S.Italy_Venosa_related - -
672-800 CE S.Italy_Venosa_related G2a2b2a P303/Page108/PF3340/S135/Z765
750-406 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan - -
790-550 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan G2a2b2b1a1a PF3378
800-590 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan - -
360-200 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu - -
359-199 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr_VET006.9 - -
806-599 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan - -
372-204 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr - -
788-545 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan - -
750-413 BCE - n/a n/a
790-550 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 L2
200-60 BCE C.Italy_Etruscan R1b1a1b1a1a2b1 L2

[J.S.]

late-Etruscan necropolis

Casenovole (Civitella Paganico, Grosseto), n=12
- Geographical coordinates: 43.033319, 11.332940
- Radiocarbon dates range (n=6): 530-200 cal BCE


genotype ratio 64%


Distance to: CSN001
1.07674610 IT_Lombardia
1.21727846 FR_Corsica
1.31327748 Swiss_Italian
1.34293251 IT_Toscania
1.37617915 IT_Liguria
1.37624724 IT_Emilia-Romagna
1.54215180 IT_Trentino
1.66358559 FR_Savoie
1.68819930 Portugal_Norte
1.72788155 IT_Piedmont

Target: CSN001 | ADC: 0.25x RC
74.8 IT_Lombardia
10.7 IT_southern_Sardinian
8.6 FR_Savoie
5.9 ES_Burgos


genotype ratio 41%

Distance to: CSN003
1.02598413 IT_Piedmont
1.09820911 Swiss_Italian
1.11246629 FR_Provence
1.25731274 IT_Trentino
1.26321612 FR_Corsica
1.27150257 ES_Cataluna
1.27518650 ES_Galicia
1.28986361 IT_Lombardia
1.29048287 IT_Veneto
1.29672708 PT_Azores



Target: CSN003 | ADC: 0.25x RC
26.3 IT_Lombardia
19.4 IT_central_Sardinian
18.8 FR_Champagne-Ardenne
15.7 ES_Huesca
8.4 Swiss_Italian
6.6 DE_Brandenburg
4.8 Saudi_Arabian

Please, Lucas, can you do the same withe the samples "Etruscan CEU" who, apparently, plot close or with the French, if i am not mistaken.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Please, Lucas, can you do the same withe the samples "Etruscan CEU" who, apparently, plot close or with the French, if i am not mistaken.

From Jovialis' post:


Distance to: C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu_related:Casenovole(Grosseto_T uscany)_427-265BCE:CSN002
9.95255809 Swiss_Italian
10.05901089 Italian_Trentino
10.96726949 Italian_Veneto
11.51826810 Italian_Lombardy
12.05897591 Italian_Aosta_Valley

Distance to: C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu:Vetulonia(Grosseto_Tuscany)_3 60-200BCE:VET005
5.68386312 French_North
6.47929780 French_Northwest
6.56206522 French_Northeast
7.24151918 Belgian
7.40929821 English_South

Distance to: C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu:CampigliadeiFoci(Siena_Tuscan y)_770-520BCE:CAM002
5.75750814 Italian_Aosta_Valley
5.79004318 French_Northeast
6.57764396 French_North
7.71435675 Bavarian_German
8.10896418 Italian_Trentino

[J.S.]

From Jovialis' post:


Distance to: C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu_related:Casenovole(Grosseto_T uscany)_427-265BCE:CSN002
9.95255809 Swiss_Italian
10.05901089 Italian_Trentino
10.96726949 Italian_Veneto
11.51826810 Italian_Lombardy
12.05897591 Italian_Aosta_Valley

Distance to: C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu:Vetulonia(Grosseto_Tuscany)_3 60-200BCE:VET005
5.68386312 French_North
6.47929780 French_Northwest
6.56206522 French_Northeast
7.24151918 Belgian
7.40929821 English_South

Distance to: C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu:CampigliadeiFoci(Siena_Tuscan y)_770-520BCE:CAM002
5.75750814 Italian_Aosta_Valley
5.79004318 French_Northeast
6.57764396 French_North
7.71435675 Bavarian_German
8.10896418 Italian_Trentino

Thank you very much !

[Voskos]

Admixtures, copied from publication :



Test Anatolia_N WHG Yamnaya Iran_N Morocco_EN
C.Italy_Early.Medieval 0,573 0,066 0,199 0,162 0
C.Italy_Etruscan 0,646 0,122 0,233 0 0
C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr 0,622 0,071 0,054 0,202 0,051
C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu 0,473 0,149 0,377 0 0
C.Italy_Imperial 0,65 0,04 0,15 0,131 0,029
TSI.SG 0,468 0,089 0,196 0,247 0
Tuscan.DG 0,443 0,094 0,223 0,24 0

[andre]

Why in the official studies they model always ancient/modern italians only with iran neolithic and never with natufian or neolithic levant?

[Hamilcar]

I'm suprised no one talked about this :


The three individuals grouped in C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr—after exclusion of a genetic outlier (Materials and Methods, Fig. 4A, and table S2A)—cannot be modeled as a mixture between Neolithic-related and Bronze Age–related European ancestries (table S4B). These individuals are dated to around 300 BCE and were excavated at two archeological sites separated by a distance greater than 100 km (Tarquinia and Vetulonia). Statistics in the form f3(C.Italy_Etruscan, X; C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr) and f4(Onge, X, C.Italy_Etruscan, C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr) show evidence of C.Italy_Etruscan.Afr being a mixture of Etruscans and ancient or modern-day individuals (as a proxy) carrying high proportions of north African or sub-Saharan ancestries (tables S2, B and C, and S3, A and B). Using qpAdm, all admixture models including C.Italy_Etruscan as one of the sources are rejected (table S4D). However, given the limited availability of genomes from northern Africa with comparable ages (26), we caution that ancestry proportions might be more correctly estimated as additional data from this region become available.

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abi7673

Another proof carthaginians were north african, it's crazy how almost every paper on ancient Iberia/italy show either north african admixture or north african individuals.

[Gallop]

About the three ancient Egyptian mummies:


The trio was named JK2134, dating from 776-569 BC, JK2888, estimated to have lived around 97-2 BC, and JK2911, from 769-560 BC.

The mummies came from an ancient Nile community known as Abusir el-Meleq. Scientists observed that their ancestry more closely resembled that of modern Mediterranean and Middle Eastern individuals than that of modern Egyptians.

Their complexion is believed to have been light brown, with dark hair and eyes and no freckles. "These results are very consistent with the findings of Schuenemann et al that 'ancient Egyptians shared more ancestry with Near Easterners than present-day Egyptians, who received additional sub-Saharan admixture in more recent times' and that they had an allele for lighter skin," Parabon NanoLabs said in a press release.
https://www.infobae.com/america/cien...-de-2000-anos/



There may be a large number of Near Easterners that are actually of North African provenance and this overlapping or being overlapped or do they need more time or more samples as they always say to find out?

What is clear is that North Africa has there in both the Etruscans and Rome and you are not going to hide or hide it any longer.

[Joachim]

Today started another thread showing, that some still have a hard time to deal with that.


That blond and red hair come from Indo-Europeans is hardly debatable. The earliest carriers of the presently most prevalent red hair genes all come from IE steppe cultures. The earliest blond individual is the fully ANE Afontova Gora 3 from southern Siberia.
Very old post,but

Lol, what you guys are smoking.

Blonde and red hair sure are from ANE,but this dosent mean all Ane carried it,MA1,AG2,AG1,Yana RHS don't carry it,only 1 sample AG3 carries it

Also,blonde and red hair were found in Scandinavian hunter gatherers,among Baltic hunter gatherers,among globular amorpha and funnelbeaker farmers,among Balkan farmers much before indo Europeans first appearred.

Indo euroepans despite having ANE and ehg Ancestry dont show blonde and red hair,the simple answer is some ANE and some EHG had blonde and red hair which they contributed to the globular amorpha farmers,To Scandinavian and Baltic hunter gatherers,but the ANE and EHG Ancestry among yamnaya/proto corded ware didnt carry blonde or red hair.

Stop making up lies.
Yamnaya,the indo Europeans with purest indo european Ancestry and no farmer admix,lacked blonde or red hair,while corded ware and Bell beaker show blonde and red hair in a minority,due to farmer admixture of 10-30%

Same with many western Russian EHG,they lack blonde and red hair alleles,Same with karelia EHG,they lack it too.
Only 1 EHG sample from samarra shows it,the later Scandinavian and Baltic HGs from kunda and narva culture show it,they also contributed Ancestry and light hair to Scandinavian,Baltic and polish farmers (funnelbeaker and globular amorpha)

They are the source of blonde and red hair in modern Europeans,original indo Europeans were black haired,brown eyed and swarthy.


Globular amorpha and funnelbeaker farmers were white looking,european maternal ancestry and Phenotype comes from them.


There was one iranian neolithic farmer from 7000 bc wezmeh cave that had 0.2 Out of 1 frequency of blonde hair,Some chg and iranN will have blonde and red hair too due to some blonde kind of Ane Ancestry.
But this dosent mean all of them will carry it.

Not even All ANE carried blonde or red hair.
Native Americans are 30% ANE and they don't carry it.


Token,you cope so hard,lol.