Turks are European

[David24]

A Turkmen horse rider fell in love with a Greek girl, that's when the story started.

And modern day Turks came to existence...

If they're half Greek then they're also half European genetically, unless you don't count Greeks as Europeans which I highly doubt.

https://i.imgur.com/7sbHWcn.png

[mentalanesthesia]

Anatolian Greeks are not identical to the Greeks from Greece though. They are mostly native Anatolian genetically and not a fully European people.

[TeRRakis]

Genetically speaking Turks are Europeans (Balkans), Caucasians, Anatolians, Middle Easterns, and Central Asians. It depends on what ethnic group they belong to. All of them are considered Turks, no matter their ethnic background.

[Voskos]

Don't know about the rest of the regions but concerning Trabzon it's a common secret in both Greece and Turkey, these guys are just converts.

[TeRRakis]

Don't know about the rest of the regions but concerning Trabzon it's a common secret in both Greece and Turkey, these guys are just converts.

Do you mean Anatolians converted to Greeks?

[Voskos]

Do you mean Anatolians converted to Greeks?

No I mean that native Anatolian Byzantine Christians of Byzantine cultural background converted to Turkish Islam.

[David24]

Anatolian Greeks are not identical to the Greeks from Greece though. They are mostly native Anatolian genetically and not a fully European people.

Anatolian Greeks are similar to Cypriots and Greek islanders, whom are considered European as well. :D

https://i.imgur.com/LACvfAe.jpg


Don't know about the rest of the regions but concerning Trabzon it's a common secret in both Greece and Turkey, these guys are just converts.

Were they Armenians or Greeks?

[Jana]

They are not. Native Anatolians were genetically west Asian. Only Balkan Turks are pred. European.

[Sora]

WTF?!

AMK YETER LAN! YETER AMK!

[TeRRakis]

Anatolian Greeks are similar to Cypriots and Greek islanders, whom are considered European as well. :D

https://i.imgur.com/LACvfAe.jpg



Were they Armenians or Greeks?

Yes, but keep in mind that Greeks from Turkey (Izmir and other coastal areas) migrated to these Greek islands, so the sample that had been taken for this project could overlap for this reason.

[Voskos]

Were they Armenians or Greeks?

I can tell you one thing.They were anything but Turks .

[Kaspias]

I'm not going to argue if Hellenized Anatolians are Europeans or not which has a certain answer root in genetics that contradicts with the social point of view, but if Greeks are considered Europeans, then yes, all Turks no matter if they are Anatolian or Balkanian should be considered European. Simple equation, there are both Anatolian Greeks and Mainlander Greeks, and so do there are Anatolian Turks and Balkan Turks. I mean, if they are Middle-Easterner that's because of the Greek admixture they acquired, but somehow Greeks became European while Turks are seen at the same cluster as Armenians, whom probably like 2-3% of the population had interaction with. If Turks are not European due to the Central Asian admixture, then it still does not answer the question of how they turned out to be Middle-Easterner.

If you ask me all these are baseless, for the majority of Apricitians religion is the only important thing while determining this kind of identifications, and all other stuff that is related to science is not needed.

[Watson]

I'm not going to argue if Hellenized Anatolians are Europeans or not which has a certain answer root in genetics that contradicts with the social point of view, but if Greeks are considered Europeans, then yes, all Turks no matter if they are Anatolian or Balkanian should be considered European. Simple equation, there are both Anatolian Greeks and Mainlander Greeks, and so do there are Anatolian Turks and Balkan Turks. I mean, if they are Middle-Easterner that's because of the Greek admixture they acquired, but somehow Greeks became European while Turks are seen at the same cluster as Armenians, whom probably like 2-3% of the population had interaction with. If Turks are not European due to the Central Asian admixture, then it still does not answer the question of how they turned out to be Middle-Easterner.

If you ask me all these are baseless, for the majority of Apricitians religion is the only important thing while determining this kind of identifications, and all other stuff that is related to science is not needed.

turks are central asian mongol arabs with gypsy admixture. turks are half greek half turkmen genetically. are turkmen nordics now or central asian non whites? if turks are white because greeks are white are turkmen whites?

[Watson]

mongol arabs came from central asia and think they are white because greeks are white. stoopid durks.

[Jana]

I'm not going to argue if Hellenized Anatolians are Europeans or not which has a certain answer root in genetics that contradicts with the social point of view, but if Greeks are considered Europeans, then yes, all Turks no matter if they are Anatolian or Balkanian should be considered European. Simple equation, there are both Anatolian Greeks and Mainlander Greeks, and so do there are Anatolian Turks and Balkan Turks. I mean, if they are Middle-Easterner that's because of the Greek admixture they acquired, but somehow Greeks became European while Turks are seen at the same cluster as Armenians, whom probably like 2-3% of the population had interaction with. If Turks are not European due to the Central Asian admixture, then it still does not answer the question of how they turned out to be Middle-Easterner.

If you ask me all these are baseless, for the majority of Apricitians religion is the only important thing while determining this kind of identifications, and all other stuff that is related to science is not needed.

Anatolian Greeks are not European. Cypriots aren't either.

[Watson]

you turks not white much less european

[Leto]

In European countries they now style themselves as PoC. Even the Apostate Prophet (a German-born Turkish anti-Islam Youtuber) said once he's not white. Don't know about the PoC thing but culturally they're Muslim/Middle Eastern.

[Arūnas]

here we go again....

even more - Paleo European, I mean Atlantid

[Sheva23]

Nice story, even if your retarted hypothesis was true being half European doesn't make you White. But we can agree that you guys are Atlantids.

[Faklon]

I'm not going to argue if Hellenized Anatolians are Europeans or not which has a certain answer root in genetics that contradicts with the social point of view, but if Greeks are considered Europeans, then yes, all Turks no matter if they are Anatolian or Balkanian should be considered European. Simple equation, there are both Anatolian Greeks and Mainlander Greeks, and so do there are Anatolian Turks and Balkan Turks. I mean, if they are Middle-Easterner that's because of the Greek admixture they acquired, but somehow Greeks became European while Turks are seen at the same cluster as Armenians, whom probably like 2-3% of the population had interaction with. If Turks are not European due to the Central Asian admixture, then it still does not answer the question of how they turned out to be Middle-Easterner.

If you ask me all these are baseless, for the majority of Apricitians religion is the only important thing while determining this kind of identifications, and all other stuff that is related to science is not needed.

90%-95% Iranoid-clustering Turkmen are the true huwhite Paleo-Atlantids

[Kaspias]

Anatolian Greeks are not European. Cypriots aren't either.

Yeah, that's what I would support as well. My criticization applies in the condition of Anatolian Greeks are accepted as European but Anatolian Turks are Middle-Easterner, which is the common case in the society.

[Faklon]

Absolutely no relation between Durks and Iranians, Levant, Armenians, etc

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jean-Michel-Guinet/publication/259441354/figure/fig3/AS:271610733133833@1441768453301/Principal-Component-Analysis-PCA-on-all-present-day-west-Eurasians-with-ancient-samples.png

[Arūnas]

TLM

[Watson]

Yeah, that's what I would support as well. My criticization applies in the condition of Anatolian Greeks are accepted as European but Anatolian Turks are Middle-Easterner, which is the common case in the society.

turks are not seen as middle easterners. turks are seen as mongol gypsy middle easterners

[Watson]

Anatolian Greeks are not European. Cypriots aren't either.

most anatolian greeks same as islander greeks. only eastern anatolian greeks different. stoopid croat woman saying that anatolian greeks are not european. all greeks founded european civilization.

[Jana]

most anatolian greeks same as islander greeks. only eastern anatolian greeks different. stoopid croat woman saying that anatolian greeks are not european. all greeks founded european civilization.

Not. Greek Islanders aren't genetically uniform. Ionians or Euboeans are different from Cretans or Aegean Islanders. Islanders are in general fringe Europeans like Sicilians and deep south Italians, mix of Euro and MENA genes. Stop following me around, monkey.

[mentalanesthesia]

turks are not seen as middle easterners. turks are seen as mongol gypsy middle easterners

108658

[Kaspias]

Absolutely no relation between Durks and Iranians, Levant, Armenians, etc

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jean-Michel-Guinet/publication/259441354/figure/fig3/AS:271610733133833@1441768453301/Principal-Component-Analysis-PCA-on-all-present-day-west-Eurasians-with-ancient-samples.png

The PCA you posted is actually useless while proving your point. You may better use this one.

Note that Greeks are closer to the Levant and so do Armenians, while the presence of BMAC and Iranic-related geneflow into Turkish ethnogenesis remains as a fact.

https://i.ibb.co/hB73t5H/PCA.png

[Faklon]

Not. Greek Islanders aren't genetically uniform. Ionians or Euboeans are different from Cretans or Aegean Islanders. Islanders are in general fringe Europeans like Sicilians and deep south Italians, mix of Euro and MENA genes. Stop following me around, monkey.

Euboeans are Aegean Islanders.

Many Anatolian Greeks in Smyrna/Ismir and Constantinople/Istanbul indeed hail from mainstream Greece (various waves of colonization+commercial centers of East Roman and Ottoman empires), which form the majority of Anatolian refugees.

[Faklon]

Butthurt half-Bulgar

AHAHAHHA

MS paint plot with Bronze Age samples with no Armenians.

The plot is from Mathieson, cope hard with the Turkman (Iranian) pill

[Jana]

Euboeans are Aegean Islanders.

Many Anatolian Greeks in Smyrna/Ismir and Constantinople/Istanbul indeed hail from mainstream Greece (various waves of colonization+commercial centers of East Roman and Ottoman empires), which form the majority of Anatolian refugees.

Maybe geographically, but from what I heard they are central Greek like genetically. Or is that wrong?
Yes, it's true lot of mainland Greeks migrated to Anatolia. Even that Pontic member who recently registered has such ancestors.

[Voskos]

In agreement with MDS and ADMIXTURE analyses, we observed that ancient and present-day Anatolians and Greeks share the most genetic drift with present-day central and southern European populations.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867421003706

[Faklon]

Maybe geographically, but from what I heard they are central Greek like genetically. Or is that wrong?
Yes, it's true lot of mainland Greeks migrated to Anatolia. Even that Pontic member who recently registered has such ancestors.

I don't know, I stopped caring for the genetics of these localities since Inceliot times. I remember that they had more affinity with the mainland compared at least to the very Southern Islanders. But they are located in the Aegean and their culture is Aegean so they represent the Aegean.


Yes, it's true lot of mainland Greeks migrated to Anatolia. Even that Pontic member who recently registered has such ancestors.


Mainly merchants from the Aegean lived/migrated and a notable amount of Latins/Latin-minded.

Pontus is the best bet for original GeRmAniC ancestry among modern Greek communities. Principality of Theodoro was a mix of Goths, Byzantines and whatever lived in Crimea with Greek as the official language.


MaInLaNd Greek is not always the "white" pill.

[Watson]

Not. Greek Islanders aren't genetically uniform. Ionians or Euboeans are different from Cretans or Aegean Islanders. Islanders are in general fringe Europeans like Sicilians and deep south Italians, mix of Euro and MENA genes. Stop following me around, monkey.

croats are mix of euro 85% and 15% mena if you wanna play the fame of semantics. leave smart talks to men and go to kitchen.

[Kaspias]

AHAHAHHA

MS paint plot with Bronze Age samples with no Armenians.

The plot is from Mathieson, cope hard with the Turkman (Iranian) pill

It's actually the most used PCA software in the academy together with R-plink dual. If you think it is too much like ms-paint you may want to give feedback to the creator of it: https://www.nhm.uio.no/english/research/infrastructure/past/

The plot you posted was correct already, but it was useless in the concurrent discussion as it is including too many populations which will create a drift in the PCA, and lacks required ancient samples while visualizing Turks and Greeks. Greece lacks of medieval samples so I have used Bronz Age samples instead, but also supplied populations that Greece took after the BA, so it will not create an undesired drift.

Here is the version with Armenians, Lebanese(all groups), Assyrians, and Cypriots.

https://i.ibb.co/wSR2sXT/pca1.png
https://i.ibb.co/JqhJcJm/pca2.png

[Jana]

croats are mix of euro 85% and 15% mena if you wanna play the fame of semantics. leave smart talks to men and go to kitchen.

Croats have 0% MENA.

[TeRRakis]

Maybe geographically, but from what I heard they are central Greek like genetically. Or is that wrong?
Yes, it's true lot of mainland Greeks migrated to Anatolia. Even that Pontic member who recently registered has such ancestors.

Already know one person that got tested with AncestryDNA. He's full pontic, however, he had about 20 percent Greece and the Balkans. After research, we figured out that one of his ancestor's village, located in Asia Minor was populated by Aromanias who had migrated there from Thessaly, Greece

[Renekton]

<Turks are European> in which sense?

[A333]

I don't know about other Turks, but the coasts of the central Black Sea region, most likely a mixture of Pontic Greek, Caucasian and Anatolian native.Central Asian and siberia mixture, do not exceed 9% in most people.can may be exceptions 108659

[David24]

Anatolian Greeks are not European. Cypriots aren't either.

Turks from Western Turkey are literally half Turkmen half Greek_Kos (which is considered Central Greek).

https://i.imgur.com/QGmYaJa.jpg

[Faklon]

Turks from Western Turkey are literally half Turkmen half Greek_Kos (which is considered Central Greek).

https://i.imgur.com/QGmYaJa.jpg

Kos is Dodecanese, South-East Aegean.
https://www.kosisland.gr/images/stories/maps/1.jpg
Central-Greece is basically historical Thessaly+Attica/Athens.
https://mice.gr/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/attica-570x350.jpg
Greek_Izmir above is West Anatolian Greeks.

[David24]

Kos is Dodecanese, South-East Aegean.
Central-Greece is basically historical Thessaly+Attica/Athens.
Greek_Izmir above is West Anatolian Greeks.

Thanks for the info.

Check this out (A Turk from Izmir):

puntDNAL K13 Global Oracle results:
puntDNAL K13 Oracle

Kit H638556

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Asia 28.67
2 SW_Europe 24.87
3 NE_Europe 18.47
4 SW_Asia 11.48
5 Siberia 6.6
6 NE_Asia 5.82
7 South_Asia 1.58
8 West_Africa 1.36
9 SE_Asia 0.41
10 Oceania 0.34
11 Americas 0.28
12 East_Africa 0.09
13 South_Africa 0.02

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Turkish_Aydin 6.26
2 Turkish 10.19
3 Kumyk 10.45
4 Balkar 10.74
5 Nogay 11.1
6 Turkish_Kayseri 12.35
7 Greek_Central 15.02
8 Ossetian 15.18
9 Adygei 15.71
10 Azerbaijan_Azeri 15.8
11 Ashkenazy_Jew 16.26
12 Dagestan_Azeri 16.35
13 Italian_Sicilian 17.24
14 Chechen 17.97
15 Italian_Abruzzo 18.12
16 Greek_Thessaly 18.18
17 Sephardic_Jew 18.43
18 Albanian 18.55
19 Romani 19.22
20 Abkhasian 19.26

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 59.7% Nogay + 40.3% Ashkenazy_Jew @ 2.32
2 62.9% Nogay + 37.1% Sephardic_Jew @ 2.66
3 61.3% Nogay + 38.7% Italian_Sicilian @ 2.7
4 57.9% Nogay + 42.1% Greek_Central @ 3.01
5 87.4% Turkish_Aydin + 12.6% Utahn_European @ 3.14
6 88.8% Turkish_Aydin + 11.2% Swedish @ 3.19
7 88.4% Turkish_Aydin + 11.6% Norwegian @ 3.2
8 87.4% Turkish_Aydin + 12.6% Irish @ 3.21
9 86.9% Turkish_Aydin + 13.1% English @ 3.21
10 87.3% Turkish_Aydin + 12.7% Orcadian @ 3.21
11 70.9% Turkish_Kayseri + 29.1% Tatar @ 3.23
12 87.5% Turkish_Aydin + 12.5% German_North @ 3.24
13 87.2% Turkish_Aydin + 12.8% Scottish @ 3.24
14 86.8% Turkish_Aydin + 13.2% Belgian @ 3.27
15 86.4% Turkish_Aydin + 13.6% German_South @ 3.3
16 85.9% Turkish_Aydin + 14.1% Slovene @ 3.3
17 86.3% Turkish_Aydin + 13.7% Slovak @ 3.32
18 85.9% Turkish_Aydin + 14.1% Hungarian @ 3.33
19 87.7% Turkish_Aydin + 12.3% Ukrainian @ 3.34
20 89% Turkish_Aydin + 11% Belarusian @ 3.35


Very different DNA compared to Greeks from Izmir (whom are similar to Central Greeks):

https://i.imgur.com/u6JbChP.jpg


Does that mean Turks are barely Anatolian genetically?

[Faklon]

Does that mean Turks are barely Anatolian genetically?

Anatolians disappeared in antiquity. We need original Anatolian ancient Anatolian sample to draw such conclusions. Probably his Anatolian is hidden between Nogai (North Caucasian+Turanic) and Greek matches.

Aydin is just below Izmir and he seems to be somewhat of an outlier compared to the Aydin average,

Izmir

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Izmir_in_Turkey.svg/1920px-Izmir_in_Turkey.svg.png

Aydin

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Aydin_in_Turkey.svg/1920px-Aydin_in_Turkey.svg.png

[David24]

Anatolians disappeared in antiquity. We need original Anatolian ancient Anatolian sample to draw such conclusions. Probably his Anatolian is hidden between Nogai (North Caucasian+Turanic) and Greek matches.

Aydin is just below Izmir and he seems to be somewhat of an outlier compared to the Aydin average,

Izmir

Aydin

I have a DNA kit from the Hittites, they were somewhat like South Italians & Cypriots.


puntDNAL K13 Global Oracle results:
puntDNAL K13 Oracle

Kit Z282612

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 SW_Europe 47.86
2 West_Asia 31.51
3 SW_Asia 13.27
4 NE_Europe 7.35

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian_Sicilian 13.09
2 Cypriot 13.26
3 Sephardic_Jew 14.03
4 Ashkenazy_Jew 14.22
5 Italian_Abruzzo 16.61
6 Greek_Central 18.02
7 Turkish_Trabzon 19.92
8 Lebanese_Christian 20.29
9 Turkish 20.4
10 Lebanese_Druze 20.91
11 Turkish_Kayseri 20.94
12 Syrian 21.51
13 Greek_Thessaly 21.87
14 Lebanese_Muslim 22.01
15 Armenian 22.51
16 Albanian 22.63
17 Italian_Tuscan 22.92
18 Assyrian 23.48
19 Kosovar 23.6
20 Jordanian 24.26

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.2% Turkish_Trabzon + 31.8% French_Basque @ 9.82
2 81.6% Cypriot + 18.4% French_Basque @ 10.28
3 70.3% Italian_Sicilian + 29.7% Turkish_Trabzon @ 11.05
4 77.7% Cypriot + 22.3% Italian_Bergamo @ 11.18
5 81.9% Cypriot + 18.1% Spaniard @ 11.38
6 51.3% Italian_Sicilian + 48.7% Cypriot @ 11.43
7 65.4% Turkish_Trabzon + 34.6% Spaniard @ 11.51
8 64.8% Cypriot + 35.2% Italian_Abruzzo @ 11.58
9 75.7% Cypriot + 24.3% Italian_Tuscan @ 11.64
10 57.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 42.2% Turkish_Trabzon @ 11.68
11 60.4% Turkish_Trabzon + 39.6% Italian_Bergamo @ 11.77
12 57.3% Cypriot + 42.7% Ashkenazy_Jew @ 11.94
13 67.4% Ashkenazy_Jew + 32.6% Turkish_Trabzon @ 11.96
14 76.9% Cypriot + 23.1% Greek_Thessaly @ 12.06
15 77.9% Cypriot + 22.1% Albanian @ 12.1
16 79.2% Cypriot + 20.8% Kosovar @ 12.14
17 87.6% Cypriot + 12.4% French @ 12.18
18 69.5% Sephardic_Jew + 30.5% Turkish_Trabzon @ 12.21
19 65.9% Armenian + 34.1% French_Basque @ 12.25
20 80.8% Italian_Sicilian + 19.2% Armenian @ 12.3

[rothaer]

(...) unless you don't count Greeks as Europeans which I highly doubt.

The only reason to count Greeks as Europeans is exactly that Greeks have basically been restricted to Europe by most other Greeks converting to other ethnicities. Consider the whole eastern half of the Roman Empire was once Greek and throughout that area people in turn had converted to Greek language. Still today you have some small religious christian relict groups of indigenous people in Lebanon that call themselves Greeks. But they have never had anything to do with today Greece. It's about people that have been keeping on speaking Greek for a long time, at least in liturgy.

So by far not all Greeks in medieval Byzantine Empire can be counted as Europeans.

[Faklon]

I have a DNA kit from the Hittites, they were somewhat like South Italians & Cypriots.


puntDNAL K13 Global Oracle results:
puntDNAL K13 Oracle

Kit Z282612

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 SW_Europe 47.86
2 West_Asia 31.51
3 SW_Asia 13.27
4 NE_Europe 7.35

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian_Sicilian 13.09
2 Cypriot 13.26
3 Sephardic_Jew 14.03
4 Ashkenazy_Jew 14.22
5 Italian_Abruzzo 16.61
6 Greek_Central 18.02
7 Turkish_Trabzon 19.92
8 Lebanese_Christian 20.29
9 Turkish 20.4
10 Lebanese_Druze 20.91
11 Turkish_Kayseri 20.94
12 Syrian 21.51
13 Greek_Thessaly 21.87
14 Lebanese_Muslim 22.01
15 Armenian 22.51
16 Albanian 22.63
17 Italian_Tuscan 22.92
18 Assyrian 23.48
19 Kosovar 23.6
20 Jordanian 24.26

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 68.2% Turkish_Trabzon + 31.8% French_Basque @ 9.82
2 81.6% Cypriot + 18.4% French_Basque @ 10.28
3 70.3% Italian_Sicilian + 29.7% Turkish_Trabzon @ 11.05
4 77.7% Cypriot + 22.3% Italian_Bergamo @ 11.18
5 81.9% Cypriot + 18.1% Spaniard @ 11.38
6 51.3% Italian_Sicilian + 48.7% Cypriot @ 11.43
7 65.4% Turkish_Trabzon + 34.6% Spaniard @ 11.51
8 64.8% Cypriot + 35.2% Italian_Abruzzo @ 11.58
9 75.7% Cypriot + 24.3% Italian_Tuscan @ 11.64
10 57.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 42.2% Turkish_Trabzon @ 11.68
11 60.4% Turkish_Trabzon + 39.6% Italian_Bergamo @ 11.77
12 57.3% Cypriot + 42.7% Ashkenazy_Jew @ 11.94
13 67.4% Ashkenazy_Jew + 32.6% Turkish_Trabzon @ 11.96
14 76.9% Cypriot + 23.1% Greek_Thessaly @ 12.06
15 77.9% Cypriot + 22.1% Albanian @ 12.1
16 79.2% Cypriot + 20.8% Kosovar @ 12.14
17 87.6% Cypriot + 12.4% French @ 12.18
18 69.5% Sephardic_Jew + 30.5% Turkish_Trabzon @ 12.21
19 65.9% Armenian + 34.1% French_Basque @ 12.25
20 80.8% Italian_Sicilian + 19.2% Armenian @ 12.3


Where did you find this, is there a study? From which place in Anatolia did he came?

It seems kinda isolated compared to modern populations, more Levant and South-European shifted than some Pontus samples (from what I understand).

[David24]

Where did you find this, is there a study? From which place in Anatolia did he came?

It seems kinda isolated compared to modern populations, more Levant and South-European shifted than some Pontus samples (from what I understand).

It's from Kaman-Kalehöyük which is Central Anatolia. You can also find the samples in G25.

I found it from GEDMatch forum, some person uploaded samples from that archaeological site and it doesn't seem to be a study.

[Jana]

Turks from Western Turkey are literally half Turkmen half Greek_Kos (which is considered Central Greek).

https://i.imgur.com/QGmYaJa.jpg

It's not central Greek at all if it's closest to Dodecanese, Crete and Cyprus.

[Liquid]

It's not central Greek at all if it's closest to Dodecanese, Crete and Cyprus.

Greeks from Kos are 80.8% Turks, which makes sense since they weren't airdropped there by the Greek Gods.

108669

[Watson]

Greeks from Kos are 80.8% Turks, which makes sense since they weren't airdropped there by the Greek Gods.

108669

those 'turkish' references are ancient samples not modern durks

[Dunai]

From what I understand, the three pillars of European genetics are the WHGs, AAFs and PIEs, and from this perspective only Turks from Istanbul's larger region are in majority European genetically, rest of the regions are in majority Asian according to Davidski's G25 method:

Target: Turkish_Istanbul = European: 51.8%
Distance: 1.5203% / 0.01520317
32.0 Armenia_EBA
29.6 Barcin_N
22.0 Yamnaya_Samara
5.4 Han
4.6 Natufian
3.8 Ganj_Dareh_N
2.4 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
0.2 WHG

Target: Turkish_South = European: 31%
Distance: 2.6069% / 0.02606903
40.8 Armenia_EBA
16.8 Barcin_N
14.2 Yamnaya_Samara
9.8 Levant_N
9.6 Han
5.6 Ganj_Dareh_N
2.4 Natufian
0.8 Clovis

Target: Turkish_North = European: 34%
Distance: 2.6497% / 0.02649707
46.6 Armenia_EBA
20.4 Barcin_N
13.6 Yamnaya_Samara
9.4 Han
3.4 Levant_N
2.4 Natufian
1.8 Ganj_Dareh_N
1.2 Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
0.8 Clovis
0.4 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3

Target: Turkish_East = European: 24%
Distance: 1.1592% / 0.01159246
58.4 Armenia_EBA
15.8 Barcin_N
8.2 Yamnaya_Samara
7.4 Ganj_Dareh_N
5.4 Natufian
2.6 Han
0.6 Levant_N
0.6 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
0.6 Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
0.4 Clovis

[Liquid]

From what I understand, the three pillars of European genetics are the WHGs, AAFs and PIEs, and from this perspective only Turks from Istanbul's larger region are in majority European genetically, rest of the regions are in majority Asian according to Davidski's G25 method:

Target: Turkish_Istanbul = European: 51.8%
Distance: 1.5203% / 0.01520317
32.0 Armenia_EBA
29.6 Barcin_N
22.0 Yamnaya_Samara
5.4 Han
4.6 Natufian
3.8 Ganj_Dareh_N
2.4 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
0.2 WHG

Target: Turkish_South = European: 31%
Distance: 2.6069% / 0.02606903
40.8 Armenia_EBA
16.8 Barcin_N
14.2 Yamnaya_Samara
9.8 Levant_N
9.6 Han
5.6 Ganj_Dareh_N
2.4 Natufian
0.8 Clovis

Target: Turkish_North = European: 34%
Distance: 2.6497% / 0.02649707
46.6 Armenia_EBA
20.4 Barcin_N
13.6 Yamnaya_Samara
9.4 Han
3.4 Levant_N
2.4 Natufian
1.8 Ganj_Dareh_N
1.2 Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
0.8 Clovis
0.4 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3

Target: Turkish_East = European: 24%
Distance: 1.1592% / 0.01159246
58.4 Armenia_EBA
15.8 Barcin_N
8.2 Yamnaya_Samara
7.4 Ganj_Dareh_N
5.4 Natufian
2.6 Han
0.6 Levant_N
0.6 Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA3
0.6 Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
0.4 Clovis

There's no sample called Armenia_EBA, it's called Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps, which is about 5 miles from the Turkish border, i.e. just a short bombing campaign away.

[Dunai]

Davidski used different names for his ancient population calculator, thus Armenia EBA=Kura Araxes culture on his calculator. It is a very frequent ancient component in modern East Mediterranean and West Asian populations.

[Liquid]

Davidski used different names for his ancient population calculator, thus Armenia EBA=Kura Araxes culture on his calculator. It is a very frequent ancient component in modern East Mediterranean and West Asian populations.

That's like calling Barcin_N, Turkey_Bursa_N. In fact, we should do this just to confuse Europeans.

[Arzanene]

Ok guys I have painstakingly organized most of the Dodecad 12k of the turkish dna project which contains multiple results from Turks from almost every single province from Turkey.

using a method that forces the calculator to separate Turkmen from any other admixture.

https://ibb.co/0sfVDWH like this for Konya.

ask for analysis from any province

[Arzanene]

Ok guys I have painstakingly organized most of the Dodecad 12k of the turkish dna project which contains multiple results from Turks from almost every single province from Turkey.

using a method that forces the calculator to separate Turkmen from any other admixture.

https://ibb.co/0sfVDWH like this for Konya.

ask for analysis from any province

[Kross]

They're not European, they're mutts. This 50% Turkmen they have makes them a mixed race mutts, nothing else. No wonder why every Turk I met in life looked Mestizo Mexican to me. It all makes sense now.

[Radimir]

They're not European, they're mutts. This 50% Turkmen they have makes them a mixed race mutts, nothing else. No wonder why every Turk I met in life looked Mestizo Mexican to me. It all makes sense now.

They are ancient Mexicans, bruh.

[Ayetooey]

Turks are too chad to be Eurocucks. Give it 50 years and Eurocucks will be asking if they pass in Turkey and trying to immigrant to Tayyips empire.

[Dick]

Turks are too chad to be Eurocucks. Give it 50 years and Eurocucks will be asking if they pass in Turkey and trying to immigrant to Tayyips empire.

Hahahaha brilliant

[Ayetooey]

Hahahaha brilliant

https://i.imgur.com/yGU9xEi.jpg

[DarkSecret]

Genetically speaking Turks are Europeans (Balkans), Caucasians, Anatolians, Middle Easterns, and Central Asians. It depends on what ethnic group they belong to. All of them are considered Turks, no matter their ethnic background.

I went to the Greek town in Canada. Such a nice culture and food. Very similar to our taste in Turkey. I can't eat Chinese or Indian food.

[Ayetooey]

I went to the Greek town in Canada. Such a nice culture and food. Very similar to our taste in Turkey. I can't eat Chinese or Indian food.

You are Laz; ancient Colchian. You can't stomach Chinese aka Turanid food. As an Indo European (with WHG/Hamitic Y dna) I like Indian food.

[DarkSecret]

They're not European, they're mutts. This 50% Turkmen they have makes them a mixed race mutts, nothing else. No wonder why every Turk I met in life looked Mestizo Mexican to me. It all makes sense now.

Maybe they are not really random Turks but belong to a certain city ethnic group? I am in Canada but I see less white looking people than in Turkey when I go to a random mall. Most of the people look Chinese or Indian. Now should I say Canadians don't look white? Meh.

[DarkSecret]

You are Laz; ancient Colchian. You can't stomach Chinese aka Turanid food. As an Indo European (with WHG/Hamitic Y dna) I like Indian food.

I like some Indian food but not spicy ones. For example, they have lentils too and they taste like the ones in Turkey and they also have Ayran according to the Indians I met.

Where are you from exactly? Your profile is too trollish to understand.

[catgeorge]

Turks are like barking dogs that never bite.
It is no surprise Istanbul is the homosexual capital of the world as ancestors are rape spawns

[Kayra]

+ Turks can not enter Anatolia - Manzikert happens.
+ Turks can not conquer Istanbul - Turks conquer all of Greece.
+ Greece rebels and claims Asia Minor - Turks kick their ass, Greeks escape by swimming in the Aegean.
+ Cypriot administration attacks Turkish Cypriots and force them to leave the Island - Turks liberate their part of the Island.

The Great Greek Philosopher catgeorge in 2021: Turks are like barking dogs that never bite.

[mentalanesthesia]

Turks are like barking dogs that never bite.
It is no surprise Istanbul is the homosexual capital of the world as ancestors are rape spawns

Now this is some glorious barking.

[TeRRakis]

+ Turks can not enter Anatolia - Manzikert happens.
+ Turks can not conquer Istanbul - Turks conquer all of Greece.
+ Greece rebels and claims Asia Minor - Turks kick their ass, Greeks escape by swimming in the Aegean.
+ Cypriot administration attacks Turkish Cypriots and force them to leave the Island - Turks liberate their part of the Island.

The Great Greek Philosopher catgeorge in 2021: Turks are like barking dogs that never bite.

Greece rebels and gains freedom from the Ottoman Empire. Thousands of Turks and Muslims move to Turkey

[TeRRakis]

+ Turks can not enter Anatolia - Manzikert happens.
+ Turks can not conquer Istanbul - Turks conquer all of Greece.
+ Greece rebels and claims Asia Minor - Turks kick their ass, Greeks escape by swimming in the Aegean.
+ Cypriot administration attacks Turkish Cypriots and force them to leave the Island - Turks liberate their part of the Island.

The Great Greek Philosopher catgeorge in 2021: Turks are like barking dogs that never bite.

I forgot to mention that if you dig Asian Minor lands you'll find ancient Turkic script and sights. #NOT

[TeRRakis]

I like some Indian food but not spicy ones. For example, they have lentils too and they taste like the ones in Turkey and they also have Ayran according to the Indians I met.

Where are you from exactly? Your profile is too trollish to understand.

Probably you're talking about Toronto?

[DarkSecret]

Probably you're talking about Toronto?

Greektown? No, Vancouver.

[DarkSecret]

What are you, children? Leave those things behind now. Uncalled-for.

[Insuperable]

The whole world is European.

[DarkSecret]

The whole world is European.

That makes sense since they colonized the world.

[Tauromachos]

Real Anatolian Greeks are not that different from Greeks i have a hard time often distinguishing them in Greece from Locals
unless you are considering some heavily nordified or slavicized types from Mainland Greece.

Turks are not all descendet from Anatolian Greeks, there is reasonably many Turks with partly Greek ancestry but they have other
types of ancestry as well.

[Arzanene]

108908

kastamonu

[Arzanene]

kastamonu 2

108909

[Benyzero]

Europeans are turk

[Arzanene]

108917

Bartin province, central north black sea

[Arzanene]

108918

samsun province, central black sea.

[Arzanene]

108919

ordu province, central black sea.

[Arzanene]

108922

Karabuk province, central black sea

[Arzanene]

108923

karabuk p.2

[Arzanene]

108924
108925
108926

Zonguldak province, west black sea results

[DarkSecret]

108924
108925
108926

Zonguldak province, west black sea results

What about Eastern Black Sea?

[SouthDutch7991]

In all the genetic similarity maps I've ever seen, there is a huge dropoff on both sides at Gibraltar, Bosporus, The Caucasus, and the Urals respectively. But, I may be reading them wrong. Regardless the borders of europe seem to be pretty well defined by this point. You shouldn't worry about being European or not, if you're Turkish, just embrace your own culture.

[DarkSecret]

In all the genetic similarity maps I've ever seen, there is a huge dropoff on both sides at Gibraltar, Bosporus, The Caucasus, and the Urals respectively. But, I may be reading them wrong. Regardless the borders of europe seem to be pretty well defined by this point. You shouldn't worry about being European or not, if you're Turkish, just embrace your own culture.

Nobody cares about cultures. It's a political stand to be European or Middle Eastern. We don't consider ourselves Middle Easter because we don't share anything with them except for Islam maybe and our Islam is different even. If you define Europe by genetics. Why do we have to be Middle Eastern when we have no important Middle East genes? This is another discussion. Anyway with recent immigrants from Afghanistan and Syria we hold maybe 10 Millions of "refugees" for Europe. So okay no need to be European because we don't want to be the trash can of immigrants who tries to "Hold the door". Fuck this shit. Anyway I couldn't care less.

[kleenex]

Anatolian Greeks are not European. Cypriots aren't either.

I agree with you. Genetically speaking Greek Islanders are probably the Easternmost European population.

[kleenex]

Real Anatolian Greeks are not that different from Greeks i have a hard time often distinguishing them in Greece from Locals
unless you are considering some heavily nordified or slavicized types from Mainland Greece.

Turks are not all descendet from Anatolian Greeks, there is reasonably many Turks with partly Greek ancestry but they have other
types of ancestry as well.

We're talking genetics not phenotypes. Anatolian Greeks are exceptionally distant from mainland Greeks. How many times has this been posted. Greek mainlanders cluster with Central Italians, Southern Albanians, Bulgarians (to a lesser degree), whereas Anatolian Greeks (depending on where they're from) tend to have much higher Caucasus admixture and cluster with Black Sea populations. The only group that doesn't is the Greeks from Smyrna who are probably in between Cretans and Maniot Peloponnesians.

[Arzanene]

What about Eastern Black Sea?


well eastern black sea turks starting at Trabzon and Gumushane seem to have very little if any Turkmen admixture. they show Greek Pontus. which can be further broken down into varying different mixes of Kartvelian mingrelians, Armenian, and Anatolian greek depending on the person.

Giresun is the only province that has significant Turkmen admixture in the east black sea region. probably because it was conquered and Mixovarvaroi'd by the Chepni turkmen during the middle ages.

trabzon seems to have been islamized during the ottoman era Along with most of gumushane and Artvin. The Pontic greeks, Armenians, Chalcedonian Armenians, Georgians, Laz were mostly converted and remain the predominate population of those regions.

108927

108928
108929

108930
108931
108932

[DarkSecret]

well eastern black sea turks starting at Trabzon and Gumushane seem to have very little if any Turkmen admixture. they show Greek Pontus. which can be further broken down into varying different mixes of Kartvelian mingrelians, Armenian, and Anatolian greek depending on the person.

Giresun is the only province that has significant Turkmen admixture in the east black sea region. probably because it was conquered and Mixovarvaroi'd by the Chepni turkmen during the middle ages.

trabzon seems to have been islamized during the ottoman era Along with most of gumushane and Artvin. The Pontic greeks, Armenians, Chalcedonian Armenians, Georgians, Laz were mostly converted and remain the predominate population of those regions.

108927

108928
108929

108930
108931
108932

I am also a Laz and cluster with Georgian Imereti. Aren't they Georgian Turks?

[Arzanene]

I am also a Laz and cluster with Georgian Imereti. Aren't they Georgian Turks?

Laz are mostly Kartvelian genetically but Laz and Adjarian Georgians have differing admixtures depending on the province.

[DarkSecret]

Laz are mostly Kartvelian genetically but Laz and Adjarian Georgians have differing admixtures depending on the province.

No I mean Georgian Imeretis. Who are they?

[Arzanene]

No I mean Georgian Imeretis. Who are they?

Imereti is a province of Georgia, if you want I can break your results down too on vahaduo for Dodecad k12 if you post your results from gedmatch

[DarkSecret]

Imereti is a province of Georgia, if you want I can break your results down too on vahaduo for Dodecad k12 if you post your results from gedmatch

I think Ayetooey did that already. But thanks.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?348949-DarkSecret-s-23andMe-Results/page6

[Frowning Man]

No I mean Georgian Imeretis. Who are they?

Imeretians are classic Kartvelians speaking ordinary Georgian. Since they live in the west, they are real Georgians and, unlike their southeastern ones (for example, Tbilisi, Kakheti and Javakheti), brothers are not mixed with southern neighbors, for example, the Armenians. Therefore, they look like real Georgians. Among all Georgians, the Imeretians are the most light-eyed. Population million.

[DarkSecret]

Imeretians are classic Kartvelians speaking ordinary Georgian. Since they live in the west, they are real Georgians and, unlike their southeastern ones (for example, Tbilisi, Kakheti and Javakheti), brothers are not mixed with southern neighbors, for example, the Armenians. Therefore, they look like real Georgians. Among all Georgians, the Imeretians are the most light-eyed. Population million.

But We are Colchian right? I mean Laz-Megreli-Svan are ancient Colchians. Why do I score Imereti on vahaduo? We are also light on average but not classic Georgians.

Plus what do you think on what happened to the Laz people in Georgia? Why are they 2000 and only in Batum?

[Frowning Man]

But We are Colchian right? I mean Laz-Megreli-Svan are ancient Colchians. Why do I score Imereti on vahaduo? We are also light on average but not classic Georgians.

Plus what do you think on what happened to the Laz people in Georgia? Why are they 2000 and only in Batum?

The Imeretians are also genetic descendants of the Kolkhs. There are versions that they are Mingrelians, who began to speak classical Georgian. Yes, and among the modern Imeretians there is a huge number of Mingrels who began to live there and are ranked among the Imeretians.

The tribes that were the ancestors of the modern Lazs, they were called Chans, originally lived on the southern border of Colchis, somewhere from Batumi to Trabzon, the tribal ancestors of the Lazs did not live to the north. And these territories separated early from the united Georgia. The territory, Batumi, where the Lazs live, has been preserved. Therefore, you are few in modern Georgia. You originally lived in territories that separated early.

In Colchis, the tribes were called:
Laz-Chan
Megrel - Zan
Svans - San, Son, Tsan.

The state known as Lazika is a modified version of the Svan name LaZan. Lazika = LaZan.
La-land (among the Svans), among the Georgians, Sa-land.
Zan is the name of the tribe, the so-called Mingrelians.

[DarkSecret]

The Imeretians are also genetic descendants of the Kolkhs. There are versions that they are Mingrelians, who began to speak classical Gians.

Wikipedia says she is a Laz from Batumi even though she seems darker than the average Laz. Is that true?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHImNpPta7M&ab_channel=EurovisionSongContest

[placebo]

Wikipedia says she is a Laz from Batumi even though she seems darker than the average Laz. Is that true?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHImNpPta7M&ab_channel=EurovisionSongContest

She looks a lot like Laz friend of mine. I don’t think she’s darker than average. All Lazs are not blonde haired blue eyed people.

[Frowning Man]

Wikipedia says she is a Laz from Batumi even though she seems darker than the average Laz. Is that true?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHImNpPta7M&ab_channel=EurovisionSongContest

Yes, she seems to be Laz.

She just has a strong tan. I don't know why, but women in Georgia like to sunbathe a lot in the sun or fake tan.

Lazs - from Georgia and Mingrelians have a high percentage of light hair for the Caucasus, but the percentage of light eyes is higher for Imereti.

[placebo]

Yes, she seems to be Laz.

She just has a strong tan. I don't know why, but women in Georgia like to sunbathe a lot in the sun or fake tan.

Lazs - from Georgia and Mingrelians have a high percentage of light hair for the Caucasus, but the percentage of light eyes is higher for Imereti.

people from adjara and meskhetia are what kind of georgian?

[Arūnas]

unfortnately or fortunately there is "Turkish Europe" if anything, only that way

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/OttomanEmpireMain.png/1200px-OttomanEmpireMain.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire

[DarkSecret]

Yes, she seems to be Laz.

She just has a strong tan. I don't know why, but women in Georgia like to sunbathe a lot in the sun or fake tan.

Lazs - from Georgia and Mingrelians have a high percentage of light hair for the Caucasus, but the percentage of light eyes is higher for Imereti.

My mother's side is also Laz who are blue-eyed and blonds but according to my mtDNA, they came from Norway in Ice Age, lol. My father's side is light-skinned people but with less colored eyed and hair.

[DarkSecret]

She looks a lot like Laz friend of mine. I don’t think she’s darker than average. All Lazs are not blonde haired blue eyed people.

Not all but darker skin is not common. Just saying average people but ofc there are Laz people with dark complexation.

[renaissance12]

Without ( western ) classical music you can't be European..

[Hektor12]

unfortnately or fortunately there is "Turkish Europe" if anything, only that way

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/OttomanEmpireMain.png/1200px-OttomanEmpireMain.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empirehttps://www.timewisetraveller.co.uk/wpimages/wpa3b66b01_1a.png


Without ( western ) classical music you can't be European..We have even more!.. Taste Turkish Church music an please give me feedback.


https://youtu.be/5KPAC1JatRI

[Frowning Man]

people from adjara and meskhetia are what kind of georgian?

Adjarians and Meskhetians are ordinary Georgians who speak classical Georgian.

Meskhi is a Georgian tribe that was known as Moskhi before our era. Shota Rustaveli was a Meskhetian. Today there are very few of them, I think 50 thousand, and since they live in the south they are mixed with Armenians, they are darker than other Georgians, but not like the Armenians. And they have an Armenoid influence.

Adjarians are not mixed or poorly mixed. They are the most graceful among the Georgians (there are many pontids). It is lighter in pigmentation than South-Eastern Georgians, but darker than other Western Georgians. Although Adjarians are from the north of Adjara, the Kobuleti region has 22% blue eyes, 68% mixed eyes and 10% pure brown or black. For the Caucasus, this is a light population. And anthropologically people from Kobuleti are closer to the Gurians - dinarized pontids, they are taller than ordinary pontids.

[renaissance12]

https://www.timewisetraveller.co.uk/wpimages/wpa3b66b01_1a.png

We have even more!.. Taste Turkish Church music an please give me feedback.


https://youtu.be/5KPAC1JatRI


Ok.. but I don't associate christian gregorian chants with Islam and Turkey...

[Hektor12]

Ok.. but I don't associate christian gregorian chants with Islam and Turkey...

The point is... If you want to find western things in Turkey, you will find more than you will ever imagine.

[Frowning Man]

My mother's side is also Laz who are blue-eyed and blonds but according to my mtDNA, they came from Norway in Ice Age, lol. My father's side is light-skinned people but with less colored eyed and hair.

I am a purebred Western Georgian, a thoroughbred Kolkh. My ancestors never mixed with anyone other than Mingrelians and Svans, they did not even mix with ordinary Georgians. Therefore, I am very similar to the real Kartvel;)

[renaissance12]

This is turkish classical music.


https://youtu.be/wN9qaOw4164

[Hektor12]

This is turkish classical music.But we have an important impact on classical music. More than, lets say "Greeks" or other irrelevant nations.

History


An important impetus for Turkish music occurred in 1699, when Austria and the Ottoman Empire negotiated the Treaty of Karlowitz. To celebrate the treaty, the Turkish diplomatic delegation brought a Janissary band along with other performers to Vienna for several days of performances.

Although the Janissary sound was familiar in Europe during the 18th century, the Classical composers were not the first to make use of it; rather, the first imitators were military bands. The cultural influence at first involved actual importation of Turkish musicians, as Henry George Farmer relates:

The credit for having introduced this battery of percussion and concussion into Europe usually goes to Poland which, in the 1720s, had received a full Turkish band from the Sultan. Russia, not to be outdone, sought a similar favour of the Sublime Porte in 1725, Prussia and Austria following suit, and by the 1770s most other countries had fallen under the sway of Janissary Music.[1]
The importation of actual musicians was only a temporary phenomenon, and the later custom was to assign the Turkish instruments in European military bands to black performers, who dressed for their jobs in exotic Eastern garb.

Thus, Turkish music in Europe had two connotations—Eastern and military—for 17th- and 18th-century European composers. The Turkish association did not evaporate soon. Even during the 1820s, in planning the last movement of the Ninth Symphony, Beethoven made a note to himself specifically stating that it would contain "Turkish" music. The use of the slang term "Turkish section" to describe the percussion section of an orchestra apparently persisted into modern times.[citation needed]

Eventually it became possible to write music with bass drum, triangle, cymbals, and piccolo without evoking a Turkish atmosphere, and in the later 19th century symphonic composers made free use of these instruments. Thus, in the long run, the Turkish instruments are a gift to Western classical music from the Ottoman military music tradition.

Examples


All three of the great Classical era composers, Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven, wrote Turkish music. For sound files illustrating some of these works, see the External links section below.

Haydn
Haydn's opera L'incontro improvviso ("The Unforeseen Encounter", 1775) is somewhat similar in its subject to Mozart's later "Abduction from the Seraglio" and also includes "Turkish" music, for instance the overture.[2]
Haydn's Military Symphony (1794) uses "Turkish" music in both the second movement (which depicts a battle) and in a brief reprise at the end of the finale.

The Turkish siege of Vienna is relieved (1683), painting by Frans Geffels
Haydn had a somewhat remote personal connection to the Turkish army — his paternal grandparents had been living in Hainburg when it was destroyed by the Turks during the invasion of 1683; unlike most of the citizens of Hainburg, they survived the attack.[3]
Mozart
Mozart's 1782 opera Die Entführung aus dem Serail (The Abduction from the Seraglio) is the quintessential work of Turkish music, as the whole plot centers on the stereotyping of comically sinister Turks. (The Pasha, at least, turns out noble and generous in the end.) The overture to the opera as well as two marches for the Janissary chorus are Turkish music in the sense just described. This and other contemporaneous operas were so influenced by the Turkish fashion they earned the popular name "Turkish opera."[4]
The Piano Sonata in A, K. 331 (1783) ends with the famous rondo marked "Alla Turca", "in the Turkish style". Repeated notes, repeated ornaments, and loud/soft passages are characteristic of the Turkish style. The imitation probably came closer with the piano of Mozart's day, whose bass strings made something of a rattle when played loudly, than is possible on modern pianos.
The finale of the Violin Concerto No. 5 in A major K. 219 (1775), sometimes called the "Turkish" Concerto, is interrupted by a loud episode of Turkish music. Mozart adapted this passage from an earlier ballet, Le gelosie del seraglio (The Jealous Seraglio Women) K. 135a, composed for Milan in 1772. In the concerto, the cellos and double basses add to the percussive effect by playing their instruments coll' arco al roverscio, that is to say, col legno, striking the strings with the wood of the bow.
Beethoven
In 1811, Beethoven wrote an overture and incidental music to a play by August von Kotzebue called The Ruins of Athens, premiered in Pest in 1812. One item from the incidental music (Op. 113, No. 4) is the Turkish march. Beethoven also wrote a set of variations on his march for piano, Op. 76.
Beethoven's Wellington's Victory (1813) commemorates the British victory in the Battle of Vitoria. The opposing British and French armies march to battle with Turkish music versions of their respective battle songs, "Rule Britannia" and "Malbrouk s'en va-t-en guerre".
Beethoven returned again to Turkish music, by this time rather out of vogue, in a passage of the final movement of his Ninth Symphony (1824). A tenor soloist, assisted by the tenors and basses of the chorus, sings a florid variation on the famous theme, accompanied by Turkish instruments playing pianissimo (Froh! Froh, wie seine Sonnen, seine Sonnen fliegen...).
Others
Turkish music also appears in works of Jean-Philippe Rameau, Michael Haydn, Gioacchino Rossini, Ludwig Spohr, in two operas of Gluck – Die Pilger von Mekka (1764) and Iphigenie auf Tauris (1779) – and in Symphony No. 6 in A minor ("Sinfonie turque") by Friedrich Witt (1770–1836). Paul Wranitzky, who in his lifetime was one of Vienna's most famed composers also wrote Turkish influenced music, including a large-scale symphony. Franz Xaver Süssmayr, best known for completing Mozart's unfinished Requiem, also composed several Turkish works, including operas and symphonies. Other composers who have written excellent examples of Turkish music include Joseph Martin Kraus, Ferdinand Kauer and Ferdinando Paer.

The "Turkish stop" on early pianos


Around the turn of the 19th century, "Turkish" music was so popular that piano manufacturers made special pianos with a "Turkish stop," also called the "military" or "Janissary" stop. The player would press a pedal that caused a bell to ring and/or a padded hammer to strike the soundboard in imitation of a bass drum. The sound file for the first musical example above attempts to mimic the latter effect manually with a modern piano.

According to Edwin M. Good, the Turkish stop was popular for playing the Mozart K. 331 rondo, and "many were the pianists who gleefully used the Janissary stop to embellish it."[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_music_(style)

[renaissance12]

Italian musicians from XV century to XVIII never went to Turkey to teach music.. So it is almost impossibile that someone who lived under the thumb of Ottomans could have learnt how to play piano and violino in western style...

During Mozart period in Vienna almost 9 musicians in 10 were Italians..

Salieri -from "Venice"- was the teacher of Beethoven.. Schubert.. Litszt.... and we can add also Mozart

[Hektor12]

Italian musicians from XV century to XVIII never went to Turkey to teach music.. So it is almost impossibile that someone who lived under the thumb of Ottomans could have learnt how to play piano and violino in western style...

During Mozart period in Vienna almost 9 musicians in 10 were Italians..


Western influence on Turkish classical music
While the European military bands of the 18th century introduced the percussion instruments of the Ottoman janissary bands, a reciprocal influence emerged in the 19th century in the form of the Europeanisation of the Ottoman army band. In 1827, Giuseppe Donizetti, the elder brother of the renowned Italian opera composer Gaetano Donizetti, was invited to become Master of Music to Sultan Mahmud II.[12] A successor of Donizetti was the German musician Paul Lange, formerly music lecturer at the American College for Girls and at the German High School, who took over the position of Master of the Sultan's Music after the Young Turk Revolution in 1908 and kept it until his death in 1920. A son of Paul Lange was the Istanbul-born American conductor Hans Lange. The Ottoman composer Leyla Saz (1850–1936) provides an account of musical training in the Imperial Palace in her memoirs. As the daughter of the Palace surgeon, she grew up in the Imperial harem where girls were also given music lessons in both Turkish and Western styles.[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Turkey#Western_influence_on_Turkish_class ical_music

[renaissance12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Turkey#Western_influence_on_Turkish_class ical_music


Donizetti went to Turkey in 19th century... At that time the core of music in Europe was in central Europe..

[renaissance12]

Turkey is a bridge from Balkan-south Europe to middle east and caucasian area...

I know very well that till XV century Turkey was a christian country and the land where Saint Paul was born..and the land of the last "Romans".

Mehmed II viewed the Ottoman state as a continuation of the Roman Empire for the remainder of his life, seeing himself as "continuing" the Empire rather than "replacing" it.

Mehmed the Conqueror considered himself a Caesar..a roman emperor..

[Hektor12]

Donizetti went to Turkey in 19th century... At that time the core of music in Europe was in central Europe..

Sure. You can exclude us for that 27 years. If you want to, you can of course do, its up to you. I dont beg acceptance from you, but as a person i respect how you explere this website, and i want to provide you with info. Perhaps you also want to respect an islamic country which invites an Italian musician to become country's head of the music and make him Pasha. If you want to, of course.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Giuseppe_Donizetti.jpg

Donizetti Pasha as he was called in the Ottoman Empire, played a significant role in the introduction of European music to the Ottoman military. Apart from overseeing the training of the European-style military bands of Mahmud’s modern army, he taught music at the palace to the members of the Ottoman royal family, the princes and the ladies of the harem, is believed to have composed the first national anthem of the Ottoman Empire, supported the annual Italian opera season in Pera, organised concerts and operatic performances at court, and played host to a number of eminent virtuosi who visited Istanbul at the time, such as Franz Liszt, Parish Alvars and Leopold de Meyer. Although the elder Donizetti was born in Bergamo, Italy, İstanbul became a second home for him, and he lived there until his death in 1856. He is buried in the vaults of the St. Esprit Cathedral, near the Beyoğlu district of Istanbul, in Pera.

[renaissance12]

Sure. You can exclude us for that 27 years. I you want to, you can of course do, its up to you. I dont beg acceptance from you, but as a person i respect how you explere this website, and i want to provide you with info. Perhaps you also want to respect an islamic country which invites an Italian musician to become country's head of the music and make him Pasha. If you want to, of course.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Giuseppe_Donizetti.jpg

I don't exclude you.. but it is clear that Turkey had arrived later in the fields of "western classical music"..

Also Scandinavia had arrived late int the fields of classical music..

On youtube there are 2 great chinese musicians ( violino ) who declare that almost 70 % of Beatles melody and music come from European classical music written in XVI-XVII-XVIII century..

Turkey is a bridge from Balkan-south Europe to middle east and caucasian area...

I know very well that till XV century Turkey was a christian country and the land where Saint Paul was born..and the land of the last "Romans".

Mehmed II viewed the Ottoman state as a continuation of the Roman Empire for the remainder of his life, seeing himself as "continuing" the Empire rather than "replacing" it.

Mehmed the Conqueror considered himself a Caesar..a roman emperor..

[renaissance12]

Anyway Istambul is a great city with a huge cultural background..

TURKEY IS THE LAND WHERE IT ALL BEGAN

Only Rome is above to Istambul...

Turkey is the cradle of civilization ( Goebly Teke ) and the homeland of many european peoples. The ancient romans were proud of their legendary Turkish heritage.

The origin of the European peoples is almost certainly in Turkey.

[TheMaestro]

Anyway Constantinople is a great city with a huge cultural background..

Ancient Greece IS THE LAND WHERE IT ALL BEGAN

Only Rome is above to Constantinople...

Ancient Greece was the cradle of civilization ( Goebly Teke ) and the homeland of many european peoples. The ancient romans were proud of their legendary Hellenic heritage.

The origin of the European peoples is almost certainly in Ancient Greece.

Fixed, you would get fx if I was your professor.

[renaissance12]

Fixed, you would get fx if I was your professor.


The Anatolian hypothesis, also known as the Anatolian theory or the sedentary farmer theory, first developed by British archaeologist Colin Renfrew in 1987, proposes that the dispersal of Proto-Indo-Europeans originated in Neolithic Anatolia. It is the main competitor to the Kurgan hypothesis, or steppe theory.

And in 1994 they discovered this in Turkey..

Gobekly Teke... 9500 B.C... or 11.500 years ago..

https://www.scienzainrete.it/files/vulture_stone.jpg

Don't forget that the Hittites were Indo-Europeans and that the Celts lived in Turks .. the GALATIANS ..

[Arzanene]

people from adjara and meskhetia are what kind of georgian?

Adjarian sample from dodecad k12 along with the Meskhetian turkish sample shows these results.

108951
108952

[Arzanene]

108954

meskhetian sample according to eurogenes k13

[DarkSecret]

I am a purebred Western Georgian, a thoroughbred Kolkh. My ancestors never mixed with anyone other than Mingrelians and Svans, they did not even mix with ordinary Georgians. Therefore, I am very similar to the real Kartvel;)

My parents' family also didn't mix. We don't know anybody from my ancestors who are not Laz. Of course, there must have been some mixing in the past some time we do not know. That should also be true for your ancestors. But since we were at the border of Colchis we must have mixed more.

[DarkSecret]

Anyway Istambul is a great city with a huge cultural background..

TURKEY IS THE LAND WHERE IT ALL BEGAN

Only Rome is above to Istambul...

Turkey is the cradle of civilization ( Goebly Teke ) and the homeland of many european peoples. The ancient romans were proud of their legendary Turkish heritage.

The origin of the European peoples is almost certainly in Turkey.

Isn't Caucasus also Proto-European? That's why they call whites Caucasian.

[Demhat]

Anyway Istambul is a great city with a huge cultural background..

TURKEY IS THE LAND WHERE IT ALL BEGAN

Only Rome is above to Istambul...

Turkey is the cradle of civilization ( Goebly Teke ) and the homeland of many european peoples. The ancient romans were proud of their legendary Turkish heritage.

The origin of the European peoples is almost certainly in Turkey.

göbekli tepe is not located in Anatolia though. And not even part of the Anatolian cultural sphere.

Göbekli Tepe
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe_location_map.PNG


classic Anatolia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Map_Anatolia_ancient_regions-en.svg/800px-Map_Anatolia_ancient_regions-en.svg.png

https://static.educalingo.com/img/en/800/anatolia.jpg

[renaissance12]

göbekli tepe is not located in Anatolia though. And not even part of the Anatolian cultural sphere.

Göbekli Tepe
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe_location_map.PNG


classic Anatolia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/74/Map_Anatolia_ancient_regions-en.svg/800px-Map_Anatolia_ancient_regions-en.svg.png

https://static.educalingo.com/img/en/800/anatolia.jpg


OK.. It is located in Turkey..

[SouthDutch7991]

OK.. It is located in Turkey..

Occupied Greece

[renaissance12]

Occupied Greece

???

[Tauromachos]

We're talking genetics not phenotypes. Anatolian Greeks are exceptionally distant from mainland Greeks.

In real life most people don't run around with their genetic fingerprint the fact is that alot of Greek people with Anatolian background don't stick out like sore thumb in Greece and no one realy cares many of todays Greek have partial Anatolian ancestry or they have some family members who do.

The difference in phenotype is perhabs like comparing Scottish or Irish to an Englishman not more you and others are creating
a myth here with your posts about how distinct they are and you are working in the favor of Turks not Greeks

[Mitryejd]

still majority of greeks are meds just like us then how do you think they differin from anatolian greeks.
im speaking for the pontic greeks only , in their roman roots yes. but after ages and ages they got mixed with different people like , caucasians, georgians, armenians, after 1461 turks. no they were original greeks not greekified anatolians. why do you push them into turks or georgians, when they are not.

[Tauromachos]

still majority of greeks are meds just like us then how do you think they differin from anatolian greeks.
im speaking for the pontic greeks only , in their roman roots yes. but after ages and ages they got mixed with different people like , caucasians, georgians, armenians, after 1461 turks. no they were original greeks not greekified anatolians. why do you push them into turks or georgians, when they are not.

still majority of greeks are meds just like us then how do you think they differin from anatolian greeks.
im speaking for the pontic greeks only , in their roman roots yes. but after ages and ages they got mixed with different people like , caucasians, georgians, armenians, after 1461 turks. no they were original greeks not greekified anatolians. why do you push them into turks or georgians, when they are not.

Mainland Greek are mostly Meds,Alpines and Dinarics in phenotype and all these types exist among Greek Pontics.

People need to grow up a bit of course some Pontics have distinct traits which are more typical for the Causus region or Northern Anatolia than Greece
but alot of them also don't

[NSXD60]

Turks are Euros peed on, and it's time they got more respect, harrumph!

[placebo]

Mainland Greek are mostly Meds,Alpines and Dinarics in phenotype and all these types exist among Greek Pontics.

People need to grow up a bit of course some Pontics have distinct traits which are more typical for the Causus region or Northern Anatolia than Greece
but alot of them also don't

same as balkan turks, caucasus turks and anatolian turks. some turks have balkan roots some caucasus and some anatolian but in general they are in the same spectrum. because despite the genetic differences, it is not as hard as people think pass between balkan, anatolian and caucasus people.

[Tauromachos]

same as balkan turks, caucasus turks and anatolian turks. some turks have balkan roots some caucasus and some anatolian but in general they are in the same spectrum. because despite the genetic differences, it is not as hard as people think pass between balkan, anatolian and caucasus people.

Yes it is not

The major difference between Greeks and Turks is that Turks have much more additional Oriental and Inland Asian influence of which Greeks have much less

The less Asiatic looking Turks often tend to look similar to Greeks and South East European in general.

[Smitty]

Nope. They have a sizable amount of recent Asian ancestry, identify as Asians (European Turk is a categorical oxymoron), and are Moslem. In what way is that European? Had the Turks never conquered Anatolia, the region would probably be universally seen as a part of Europe.

[DarkSecret]

Yes it is not

The major difference between Greeks and Turks is that Turks have much more additional Oriental and Inland Asian influence of which Greeks have much less

The less Asiatic looking Turks often tend to look similar to Greeks and South East European in general.

Caucasian Turks don't look "Asiatic". Actually most of the Turks don't. Lol.

[DarkSecret]

Nope. They have a sizable amount of recent Asian ancestry, identify as Asians (European Turk is a categorical oxymoron), and are Moslem. In what way is that European? Had the Turks never conquered Anatolia, the region would probably be universally seen as a part of Europe.

What recent Asian ancestry? I have seen more mongoloid Eastern European than mongoloid Turks here. Meh. Yes, your last sentence is the same hypocrisy as the EU's.

[Leto]

What recent Asian ancestry? I have seen more mongoloid Eastern European than mongoloid Turks here. Meh. Yes, your last sentence is the same hypocrisy as the EU's.
The Turks of Turkey are about 20-25% Central Asian on average, some might have even more, close to 50%. As for the Mongoloid admixture it's 8-10% for an average ethnic Anatolian Turk and this amount can be found only in Finns and some Russians. But the thing is that the rest of the ancestry of Finns and Russians is pretty much European which is not the case in Turkey. Finno-Ugric presence in Northeastern Europe is also hundreds if not thousands of years older than Turkic presence in West Asia.

You are zero Mongoloid, so you are not even a Turk in the ethnic sense. Just an Islamicized Turkified native.

[placebo]

Yes it is not

The major difference between Greeks and Turks is that Turks have much more additional Oriental and Inland Asian influence of which Greeks have much less

The less Asiatic looking Turks often tend to look similar to Greeks and South East European in general.

Yeah we have Turanid influenced types and that's not rare, most Turks have more or less Turanid influence. Also your atypical looking ones are more like Arabic/Levantish, ours looks more Iranic imo. That's the difference.


Caucasian Turks don't look "Asiatic". Actually most of the Turks don't. Lol.

We look some Asiatic. We already have it genetically, it's minimal but also we have this in appearance. We don't noticed it because it's usual for us but others notice. Most Turks have a different eye structure than their neighbors.

[DarkSecret]

Yeah we have Turanid influenced types and that's not rare, most Turks have more or less Turanid influence. Also your atypical looking ones are more like Arabic/Levantish, ours looks more Iranic imo. That's the difference.



We look some Asiatic. We already have it genetically, it's minimal but also we have this in appearance. We don't noticed it because it's usual for us but others notice. Most Turks have a different eye structure than their neighbors.

Most Europeans also have that structure. But some Turks might have eyes like Kazakhs but that's very rare. I was talking about Caucasians though.

[Smitty]

What recent Asian ancestry? I have seen more mongoloid Eastern European than mongoloid Turks here. Meh. Yes, your last sentence is the same hypocrisy as the EU's.

I've seen plenty of Turkish results, and they almost always score Mongoloid components, from 5-20%. That foreign ancestry entered Anatolia in the last 1000 years. The only East Europeans who are comparable are the Finns, and their Mongoloid is much older. What's more, they don't bear a non-European identity. Your identity traces back to Mongolia, for Pete's sake. There is every reason to consider Turkey outside the bounds of Europe, and geography is another one.

Hypocrisy, nothing. If the Turks had never come to Anatolia, Anatolians would be pure Caucasoids, they would have a Greek identity, and they would be nominally Christian. Totally different story.

[Hektor12]

If the Turks had never come to Anatolia, Anatolians would be pure Caucasoids, they would have a Greek identity, and they would be nominally Christian. Totally different story.With all due respect to religion-identity aspects, is the caucasoid-ness really that important?

[Smitty]

With all due respect to religion-identity aspects, is the caucasoid-ness really that important?

I'm not a purist, no. There are non-Caucasoid elements in much of South and East Europe. And I don't see that as a major issue. But Turks have a heck of a lot of non-Caucasoid DNA by European standards. And it comports well with their Asian origin.

[Hektor12]

I'm not a purist, no. There are non-Caucasoid elements in much of South and East Europe. And I don't see that as a major issue. But Turks have a heck of a lot of non-Caucasoid DNA by European standards. And it comports well with their Asian origin.

Average Turkish person has %10-11 yellow component, in extreme cases its either %0 or %19-20. Average black-american has %20 white component, and its not like Greek or Italian, its directly colonial slave owners. I have never ever heard a sentence like "black americans have too high white genetic to be called black" in my life.

I think when it comes to Turks, unfortunately personal feelings therefore political bias becomes more prominent.

[Smitty]

Average Turkish person has %10-11 yellow component, in extreme cases its either %0 or %19-20. Average black-american has %20 white component, and its not like Greek or Italian, its directly colonial slave owners. I have never ever heard a sentence like "black americans have too high white genetic to be called black" in my life.

I think when it comes to Turks, unfortunately personal feelings therefore political bias becomes more prominent.

That's because the people calling blacks black are Europeans. I don't care if African-Americans have 20% European blood because I'm not African. To me, black Americans are "others," so their purity or lack thereof is of no importance to me. If I were Nigerian or Congolese, I think I'd feel differently.

And I don't have an axe to grind with Turks, other than Islam. I'm actually much more likely to consider them European than most other MENAs. But at the end of the day, genetics, history, religion, culture, and geography exclude them. I don't count gypsies as European either, and they even have cultural and religious similarities with Europeans.

[Leto]

This thread was opened by a (now banned) troll and therefore should be closed. It makes no sense. If one West Asian Muslim nation is white, that basically opens a pandora's box of further nonsensical questions. The Levant, Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Azerbaijan, Afghanistan may as well be white in some sense, right?

[Hektor12]

If one West Asian Muslim nation is white, that basically opens a pandora's box of further nonsensical questions. The Levant, Arabia, Iraq, Iran, Azerbaijan, Afghanistan may as well be white in some sense, right?Thats simply why the resistance is so damn hard. Direct background of the idiotic, sometimes even crazy ideas and assumptions.

An effort to make science to fit into political desires.

[DarkSecret]

I've seen plenty of Turkish results, and they almost always score Mongoloid components, from 5-20%. That foreign ancestry entered Anatolia in the last 1000 years. The only East Europeans who are comparable are the Finns, and their Mongoloid is much older. What's more, they don't bear a non-European identity. Your identity traces back to Mongolia, for Pete's sake. There is every reason to consider Turkey outside the bounds of Europe, and geography is another one.

Hypocrisy, nothing. If the Turks had never come to Anatolia, Anatolians would be pure Caucasoids, they would have a Greek identity, and they would be nominally Christian. Totally different story.

Christianity is a middle eastern religion. Christianity is not a European identity. Turkey and Ottoman Empire had and have land in Europe. Most people feel closer to Europe than Chinese and Saudi Arabia. 1/4 of the population live in the European part of Turkey. Turkey as a country considered Europe in most of the European institutions.

No, I don't have Mongolian genes and you cannot tell me to go back to Mongolia.

[Leto]

Christianity is a middle eastern religion. Christianity is not a European identity. Turkey and Ottoman Empire had and have land in Europe. Most people feel closer to Europe than Chinese and Saudi Arabia. 1/4 of the population live in the European part of Turkey. Turkey as a country considered Europe in most of the European institutions.

No, I don't have Mongolian genes and you cannot tell me to go back to Mongolia.
Christianity (Roman Catholicism, mainline Protestantism, Eastern Orthodoxy) is essentially the religion of Europe. Has been so for 1 to 2 thousand years depending on the country. Of course it is part of European identity.

You better consider reverting to Holy Orthodoxy because your Georgian/Laz ancestors had been Orthodox for about 1,000 years before Islamization started in the 16th century. And even today Georgia has a staunch Orthodox identity. But in your "European" country you'll probably be hunted with pitchforks if you publicly denounce Islam and embrace Christ.

[DarkSecret]

Christianity (Roman Catholicism, mainline Protestantism, Eastern Orthodoxy) is essentially the religion of Europe. Has been so for 1 to 2 thousand years depending on the country. Of course it is part of European identity.

You better consider reverting to Holy Orthodoxy because your Georgian/Laz ancestors had been Orthodox for about 1,000 years before Islamization started in the 16th century. And even today Georgia has a staunch Orthodox identity. But in your "European" country you'll probably be hunted with pitchforks if you publicly denounce Islam and embrace Christ.

No, I wouldn't have any problem if I say I am a Christian. What do you think Turkey is? Afghanistan or something? My ancestors were Christians because that was the true religion until Islam. Now Christianity is not the true religion of Allah. We can't revert. In Canada and also Europe, you can also be killed because you are Muslim. That happened last month lol. What do you think Europeans are? Everyone is not liberal.

[Hektor12]

You better consider reverting to Holy Orthodoxy because your Georgian/Laz ancestors had been Orthodox for about 1,000 years before Islamization started in the 16th century. And even today Georgia has a staunch Orthodox identity. But in your "European" country you'll probably be hunted with pitchforks if you publicly denounce Islam and embrace Christ.I want to ask you something. Why do you recommend him to convert into a religion which was the religion of his ancestors for just 1000 years? His ancestors had different religions before hat middle east religion or maybe were irreligious (i dont know) why he has to accept that religion? Does the history start with that religion?

[Insuperable]

Christianity (Roman Catholicism, mainline Protestantism, Eastern Orthodoxy) is essentially the religion of Europe. Has been so for 1 to 2 thousand years depending on the country. Of course it is part of European identity.

You better consider reverting to Holy Orthodoxy because your Georgian/Laz ancestors had been Orthodox for about 1,000 years before Islamization started in the 16th century. And even today Georgia has a staunch Orthodox identity. But in your "European" country you'll probably be hunted with pitchforks if you publicly denounce Islam and embrace Christ.

You don't have to embrace Christ. You can be just an atheist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_U_lQ4rjtk4

[A333]

no they are not.only turkified ones can be a european and white.

[Smitty]

Christianity is a middle eastern religion. Christianity is not a European identity. Turkey and Ottoman Empire had and have land in Europe. Most people feel closer to Europe than Chinese and Saudi Arabia. 1/4 of the population live in the European part of Turkey. Turkey as a country considered Europe in most of the European institutions.

No, I don't have Mongolian genes and you cannot tell me to go back to Mongolia.

Christianity doesn't "belong" to anyone, nor was that my point. But it is, as Leto says, a core part of what it means to be European, and Islam is very much at odds with European identity. It always has been, a few Balkan backwaters notwithstanding. I don't care about Thracian Turkey. That's like saying Spain is a North African country because of Melilla and Ceuta. I also don't care what Turks feel. You can feel what you want, but I daresay most Europeans and whites the world round do not consider Turks European. A lot of Americans "feel" American Indian, too. As for European institutions, they are globalist entities that rarely if ever have the common man's good in mind. I don't care about them either.

It seems there is a bit of an identity crisis amongst Turks. I didn't know. But it makes sense, given the history of the country. Mixing breeds this kind of thing.

[placebo]

I've seen plenty of Turkish results, and they almost always score Mongoloid components, from 5-20%. That foreign ancestry entered Anatolia in the last 1000 years. The only East Europeans who are comparable are the Finns, and their Mongoloid is much older. What's more, they don't bear a non-European identity. Your identity traces back to Mongolia, for Pete's sake. There is every reason to consider Turkey outside the bounds of Europe, and geography is another one.

Hypocrisy, nothing. If the Turks had never come to Anatolia, Anatolians would be pure Caucasoids, they would have a Greek identity, and they would be nominally Christian. Totally different story.

I generally agree with you but this has nothing to do with the mongoloid genes of the Turks. If Turks were Christian, they would probably be seen as part of Europe like Cyprus. Both are not European to me.

[Smitty]

I generally agree with you but this has nothing to do with the mongoloid genes of the Turks. If Turks were Christian, they would probably be seen as part of Europe like Cyprus. Both are not European to me.

Under the status quo, I don't really consider Cypriots white either. They're too far out of the European genetic cluster, from what I understand of their genetics. But I might not draw that cluster as tightly as I do if Cypriots and Lebanese Catholics were the norm in the Middle East, rather than the exception.

More importantly, you're right that it isn't primarily Turks' Mongol genes that cause them to be seen as non-Europeans. It is religion and culture. But the two go together. Their not being from Europe is part and parcel with their non-European culture and religion. It's two sides of the same coin.

[Leto]

I generally agree with you but this has nothing to do with the mongoloid genes of the Turks. If Turks were Christian, they would probably be seen as part of Europe like Cyprus. Both are not European to me.
Cyprus is not a European island and they are genetically almost identical to Lebanese Christians. But they are Greek speakers and Orthodox Christian, basically a remnant of the pre-Islamic Hellenistic Levant and Asia Minor.

[placebo]

Cyprus is not a European island and they are genetically almost identical to Lebanese Christians. But they are Greek speakers and Orthodox Christian, basically a remnant of the pre-Islamic Hellenistic Levant and Asia Minor.

Yeah I know but most people think they're European at least in real life.

[Leto]

Yeah I know but most people think they're European at least in real life.
Well, it's an EU member state and most people think they're just Greeks and the Greeks (Greece) are European.

[DarkSecret]

Well, it's an EU member state and most people think they're just Greeks and the Greeks (Greece) are European.

There are Greeks in Syria. They should also be European. Hahaha. What nonsense. Armenia and Georgia Christian and they should also be European. But the country between all of them. Okay, brilliant logic. Don't quote me please you are hilarious. Thank you very much.

[DarkSecret]

Christianity doesn't "belong" to anyone, nor was that my point. But it is, as Leto says, a core part of what it means to be European, and Islam is very much at odds with European identity. It always has been, a few Balkan backwaters notwithstanding. I don't care about Thracian Turkey. That's like saying Spain is a North African country because of Melilla and Ceuta. I also don't care what Turks feel. You can feel what you want, but I daresay most Europeans and whites the world round do not consider Turks European. A lot of Americans "feel" American Indian, too. As for European institutions, they are globalist entities that rarely if ever have the common man's good in mind. I don't care about them either.

It seems there is a bit of an identity crisis amongst Turks. I didn't know. But it makes sense, given the history of the country. Mixing breeds this kind of thing.

Core part yeah. That's why LGBT marriage is legal in "Christian" Europe. Or they are mostly atheists now. This is indeed a core value. If Christianity is only wearing a cross I can also be Christian and go to heaven. LOLZ.

[DarkSecret]

Turkey is in Malaysia and Saudi Arabia.

[Asten]

Turkey is part of European history, They are the successors of Byzantine Empire.

[DarkSecret]

Turkey is part of European history, They are the successors of Byzantine Empire.

No we are in Mongolia and Malaysia. Look at the Saudi Arabia map.

[Smitty]

Core part yeah. That's why LGBT marriage is legal in "Christian" Europe. Or they are mostly atheists now. This is indeed a core value. If Christianity is only wearing a cross I can also be Christian and go to heaven. LOLZ.

Yeah, the West is in full-blown apostasy, no argument. Hence our decline. You're pointing to the very dissolution of Europe as the reason that you too can be a part of it. Europe and the West are committing suicide. And in our death throes, our identity has been diluted enough that, sure, maybe Turkey is European too.

[Smitty]

double

[Asten]

Yeah, the West is in full-blown apostasy, no argument. Hence our decline. You're pointing to the very dissolution of Europe as the reason that you too can be a part of it. Europe and the West are committing suicide. And in our death throes, our identity has been diluted enough that, sure, maybe Turkey is European too.

Every Empire have fallen during humankind, Western one will not not be an exception unfortunatly.

[Leto]

There are Greeks in Syria. They should also be European. Hahaha. What nonsense. Armenia and Georgia Christian and they should also be European. But the country between all of them. Okay, brilliant logic. Don't quote me please you are hilarious. Thank you very much.
The country of Greece is in Europe and the Greeks as a people emerged in what is now Greece, not Syria. It's irrelevant where Greek diaspora may live. Armenia and Georgia are not in Europe, no. The Caucasus is not part of European civilization.
You are a clown who quoted me after I replied to someone else.

[Leto]

Yeah, the West is in full-blown apostasy, no argument. Hence our decline. You're pointing to the very dissolution of Europe as the reason that you too can be a part of it. Europe and the West are committing suicide. And in our death throes, our identity has been diluted enough that, sure, maybe Turkey is European too.
Yep, what the globalist EU says is usually overtly or covertly anti-white, so pointing to that organization makes no sense. According to the EU a Gambian Negro with a German passport is German.

[DarkSecret]

:joker000::joker000::joker000::joker000::joker000: