Origins of I2a1: Is it Slavic? [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

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reboun

07-08-2021, 08:15 PM

Dick

07-08-2021, 08:36 PM

Depends on the subclade. The reason for such a high percentage on Sardinia is during the last Ice age the sea levels dropped so low that the distance between Sardinia and the mainland was reduced which made crossing relatively easy. After the sea levels rose again, those cromags were stuck on the island like Gilligan.

Then came the farmer women on boats and made them their sex slaves.

Varda

07-08-2021, 08:50 PM

Only I2-Y3120 is Slavic branch of I2a https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/
https://www.poreklo.rs/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/haplogrupa-I2-Y3120.jpg

Ion Basescul

07-08-2021, 08:54 PM

I-PH908 South Slav reporting for duty

Arūnas

07-08-2021, 09:05 PM

yes, originally Slavic, I read a few years ago that one day Germans (R1a) started call themself Slavs, Celts (R1b) - as Germanics, and real Slavs (I2a1) ran/escaped down/south, and that's very true...
next question?!

Dr_Maul

07-08-2021, 09:13 PM

Not all clades Slavic, I2 in Iranics and NW Asia in general is probably related to the clade in Armenia LBA sample

Rædwald

07-08-2021, 09:33 PM

It's Pre-Slavic

Voskos

07-08-2021, 09:38 PM

Central European.

Slavic Italian

07-09-2021, 03:19 PM

Arūnas

07-09-2021, 03:28 PM

LOL. Germans invaded themselves during WW2?

lol, what if it happened in the Middle Ages (Migration Period/Barbarian Invasions )?

Slavic Italian

07-09-2021, 03:37 PM

lol, what if it happened in the Middle Ages (Migration Period/Barbarian Invasions )?

Half of Germany is Slavic.

Roy

07-09-2021, 04:41 PM

Only I2-Y3120 is Slavic branch of I2a https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3120/
https://www.poreklo.rs/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/haplogrupa-I2-Y3120.jpg

How much Slavic ancestry do Romanians? Surely not a lot.

Jana

07-09-2021, 05:16 PM

How much Slavic ancestry do Romanians? Surely not a lot.

A lot actually, but on average they have even more southern European like ancestry (Balkan, Roman etc)

Dušan

07-09-2021, 05:22 PM

How much Slavic ancestry do Romanians? Surely not a lot.

If these K13 ancient samples are accurate, then 50% on average:

Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R1548_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,13.7,7.83,1 7.2,21.18,31.85,6.18,0.1,0,1.17,0,0.7,0.07,0.01
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R835_Marche_Roman_Imperial,17.48,7.33,22.76 ,15.83,28.17,4.29,2.11,0,0,0.18,0.49,0,1.37
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R50_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,12.8,5.92,19. 69,18.96,31.66,8.21,1.77,0.13,0,0,0,0,0.87
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R126_Lazio_Frosinone_Roman_Imperial,6.85,0, 21.95,22.6,37.03,8.91,0.98,0.75,0,0,0.22,0,0.71
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R32_Lazio_Rome_Early_Medieval_Italy,15.10,6 .10,27.02,17.20,26.77,5.20,0.00,0.37,0.00,0.07,0.7 4,0.00,1.44
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R131_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,18.55,6.06,2 2.93,13.3,31.22,5.99,0,1.15,0,0.4,0,0,0.4
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R38_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,1.92,0,18.71, 28.11,41.51,8.68,0,0,0,0.45,0.34,0,0.28
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R40_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,14.72,0,23,19 .52,36.2,5.66,0,0.47,0.15,0,0,0,0.27
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R111_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,25.73,7.27,2 6.59,13.06,25.7,1.65,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R113_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,25.73,4.01,2 6.05,11.36,28.27,3.92,0,0,0,0.46,0.2,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R114_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,17.19,6.78,1 8.04,19.02,29.56,7.35,0.58,0.77,0,0.7,0,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R123_Lazio_Frosinone_Roman_Imperial,12.03,4 .13,19.45,20.54,37.07,3.99,0,0.97,0,0,1.83,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R128_Lazio_Frosinone_Roman_Imperial,2.63,8. 5,21.08,27.13,34.24,5.03,0,0,0,0.84,0.55,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R1544_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,16.53,4.64, 21.39,18.62,31.87,3.82,1.51,0,0.43,0.3,0.89,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R1545_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,10.35,3.4,2 2.3,23.93,31.78,7.44,0.06,0,0,0,0.73,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R1551_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,5.31,0,12.6 ,36.12,34.89,8.22,2.15,0.72,0,0,0,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R39_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,9.38,2.57,24. 97,19.78,34.82,5.66,0,1.74,0.29,0.78,0,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R43_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,12.19,0,22.2, 21.83,39.45,3.15,0.45,0,0,0.08,0.65,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R44_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,14.45,0,23.48 ,18.04,38.86,5.16,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R51_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,20.47,1.28,20 .11,15.05,34.89,5.56,0,0.17,0,0.59,1.88,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R66_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,7.81,1.07,23. 57,24.26,37.48,4.96,0,0,0,0,0.85,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R69_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,12.48,4.41,24 .55,22.98,33.7,0.54,0,0.59,0,0.5,0.25,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R71_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,6.09,0.06,20. 33,24.54,44.64,3.4,0,0,0,0,0.94,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R72_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,10.24,0,22.92 ,19.04,41.2,5.12,0,0,0.57,0,0.91,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R78_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,5.76,2.77,22. 82,22.14,43.72,2.03,0,0.1,0,0.27,0.39,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R81_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imperial,11.54,2.43,22 .21,17.14,39.17,4.79,1.98,0,0,0,0.74,0,0
Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman:R836_Marche_Roman_Imperial,17.9,4.35,25.43, 19.62,29.98,1.61,0,0,0,0.28,0.83,0,0
Slavic:AV2_Hungary_Avar_daughter.or.mother.AV1_135 6_ybp,30.22,47.46,11.05,4.34,3.01,0.41,0.55,0,1.56 ,0.94,0,0.46,0
Slavic:Sunghir6_Russia_Sunghir6.SG_790_ybp,25.17,4 5.83,13.05,4.29,6.41,0.44,0.00,0.03,2.59,1.13,0.64 ,0.42,0.00
Slavic:Ukraine_Lutsk_Medieval_VK541,23.15,43.28,11 .70,7.62,7.79,1.05,1.58,0.00,1.18,0.56,0.79,0.00,1 .29
Slavic:Ukraine_Chernigov_VikingAge_VK542,22.48,43. 78,10.72,8.56,9.14,0.26,0.00,0.00,1.64,0.82,0.98,0 .73,0.87
Slavic:Viking_Denmark_Langeland_VK287,27.47,45.26, 8.62,7.09,7.54,0,1.5,0.79,1.13,0.21,0.21,0.16,0
Slavic:Viking_Poland_Cedynia_VK212,29.69,48.84,9.5 3,5.54,1.59,0,1.3,0,1.34,0,0.13,1.42,0.62
Slavic:Viking_Russia_Pskov_VK159,28.62,50.38,7.63, 3.49,4.19,0,2.08,0,0,1.86,0.48,1.27,0
Slavic:Viking_Russia_Gnezdovo_VK272,27.1,42.86,8.3 7,4.01,8.44,3.37,1.6,0,1.68,2.01,0,0,0.56
Slavic:Viking_Sweden_Gotland_VK454,25.59,45.53,14. 97,2.7,4.74,0.3,0.73,2.49,0,0.34,1.21,1.4,0
Slavic:Ukraine_Lutsk_Medieval_VK541,23.15,43.28,11 .7,7.62,7.79,1.05,1.58,0,1.18,0.56,0.79,0,1.29
Slavic:Ukraine_Chernigov_VikingAge_VK542,22.48,43. 78,10.72,8.56,9.14,0.26,0,0,1.64,0.82,0.98,0.73,0. 87
Slavic:KRA011_S-Anhalt_1100_AD,29.56,50.68,8.38,2.39,2.54,1.03,1.3 ,0.14,0,1.4,1.27,1.1,0.21
Slavic:KRA001_S-Anhalt_1100_AD,25.47,47.56,12.36,7.54,1.32,0,2.43, 0.52,0.01,1.2,0.71,0.61,0.27
Slavic:VK494_Poland_Sandomierz,32.56,47.37,12.86,2 .56,0,0,0.82,2.53,0.31,0.22,0,0.77,0
Slavic:VK466_Russia_Gnezdovo,25.85,43.15,9.22,12.8 2,0,0,2.34,0.15,0,2.09,1.69,0,2.69
Slavic:VK340_Denmark_Jutland,28.29,43.29,9.89,5.02 ,8.09,0,3.75,0,0.44,0.1,0,1.12,0
Germanic:VK70_Denmark_Sealand,52.29,23.74,12.54,6. 47,0.3,0,0.81,1.13,0.06,1.05,0.67,0,0.94
Germanic:VK71_Denmark_Sealand,50.44,30.82,9.69,0.5 9,2.98,0,0,0,0,1.69,3.35,0,0.45
Germanic:VK296_Denmark_Sealand,47.81,32.58,6.95,3. 19,0.95,3.53,0.65,0.12,0.46,1.63,0.74,1.39,0
Germanic:VK297_Denmark_Sealand,50.8,29.78,9.51,3.3 7,0,1.41,0.27,0.5,3.26,0.29,0.61,0,0.21
Germanic:AED106_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1455_ybp ,45.38,30.61,9.37,10.33,0.00,0.05,0.82,0.00,0.00,1 .56,1.13,0.05,0.70
Germanic:AED249_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1455_ybp ,45.91,36.06,8.53,3.83,0.00,2.62,1.36,1.26,0.42,0. 00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Germanic:Alh1_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1500_ybp,5 0.39,26.23,13.00,5.30,0.00,1.40,0.00,1.70,0.00,1.1 1,0.49,0.38,0.00
Germanic:NW255a_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1476_ybp ,52.54,25.61,7.98,6.28,0.00,5.74,0.00,0.00,0.07,0. 00,0.37,0.00,1.41
Germanic:STR316b_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1455_yb p,56.84,24.99,10.89,0.62,0.00,0.00,1.23,0.17,1.56, 1.93,0.52,0.82,0.42
Germanic:STR480_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1430_ybp ,48.57,26.47,16.11,4.79,0.00,1.51,0.93,0.87,0.63,0 .00,0.00,0.00,0.13
Turkic:DA101_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1716_ybp,1 5.48,20.81,0.00,25.74,0.00,0.00,10.64,6.48,15.16,4 .45,0.00,0.00,1.24
Turkic:DA104_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1600_ybp,1 6.18,18.94,0.00,18.27,0.00,0.00,8.84,7.48,25.18,4. 61,0.15,0.35,0.00
Turkic:DA105_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_son.DA104. SG_1783_ybp,15.25,20.57,0.86,20.19,0.00,0.00,6.40, 8.60,25.03,3.10,0.00,0.00,0.00
Turkic:DA385_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1467_ybp,1 5.92,19.74,0.00,17.23,0.00,0.00,8.70,8.58,24.42,4. 84,0.00,0.00,0.56
Turkic:DA65_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1511_ybp,23 .89,17.03,0.00,14.40,0.00,0.00,5.83,10.23,21.70,5. 38,0.04,0.00,1.49
Turkic:DA66_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1447_ybp,14 .78,23.68,0.00,13.28,0.00,0.00,9.32,7.37,24.16,3.4 6,2.08,0.00,1.86
Turkic:DA69_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1516_ybp,17 .53,18.31,0.00,24.71,1.09,0.00,9.68,5.25,20.35,2.8 9,0.20,0.00,0.00

Romania_average,23.31,26.03,17.34,10.46,17.38,1.95 ,0.70,0.65,1.09,0.52,0.36,0.12,0.09
Romania_Banat,22.75,25.65,17.78,10.71,17.71,2.06,0 .84,0.55,1.21,0.40,0.21,0.07,0.09
Romania_Crisana,25.58,26.36,17.69,9.50,16.32,1.25, 0.82,0.62,0.85,0.59,0.25,0.12,0.06
Romania_Dobruja,22.11,24.93,17.64,11.00,18.49,2.23 ,0.71,0.87,1.25,0.37,0.28,0.07,0.06
Romania_Maramures,24.38,28.43,16.90,9.19,15.65,2.0 6,1.06,0.73,0.75,0.29,0.49,0.05,0.00
Romania_Moldavia_North,24.87,29.86,15.41,9.35,14.4 6,1.78,0.89,0.71,1.33,0.59,0.46,0.15,0.13
Romania_Moldavia_South,24.05,26.15,17.12,10.05,16. 97,2.00,0.76,0.53,1.08,0.63,0.39,0.13,0.13
Romania_Muntenia,21.91,24.66,17.54,11.35,18.87,2.1 9,0.72,0.55,1.03,0.59,0.35,0.13,0.10
Romania_Oltenia,23.52,25.05,17.97,10.73,17.82,1.79 ,0.70,0.79,0.69,0.38,0.36,0.10,0.09
Romania_Transylvania,24.31,25.97,17.43,10.13,16.98 ,1.84,0.65,0.54,1.04,0.59,0.35,0.07,0.10
Romania_Wallachia,22.35,24.81,17.64,11.14,18.53,2. 09,0.75,0.65,0.96,0.52,0.35,0.11,0.09

https://i.imgur.com/lBbtylR.png

Leto

07-09-2021, 09:45 PM

If these K13 ancient samples are accurate, then 50% on average:

That's a fucking lot. I thought Bulgarians (and the Gagauz) would be barely 40% Slavic (I'm pretty tired of this never-ending estimation of "Slavic" ancestry).

Dušan

07-09-2021, 10:10 PM

That's a fucking lot. I thought Bulgarians (and the Gagauz) would be barely 40% Slavic (I'm pretty tired of this never-ending estimation of "Slavic" ancestry).

According to these K13 ancient samples, Bulgarians are a bit less proto-Slavic than Romanians, with cca 45% on average.

https://i.imgur.com/zWNy1qn.png

My people are cca 60% proto-Slavic on average.

https://i.imgur.com/RkjgGWI.png

GalenStark

07-09-2021, 10:33 PM

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=108745&d=1625775148

As far as I know, it is of Slavic origin but its existence in Sardinia makes me question my knowledge since Sardinians have almost no Slavic ancestry. What is the origin of I2a1 haplogroup?

Originally no. By the time of the late proto-Slavs at least, most definitely yes(speaking of Y3120 here).Alot of people argue for a Celtic origin based on Western derived clades. Issue with this is that the common ancestor Y3120 people have with western clades is no closer than 1400BCE which is far too early.

For all we know, Y3120 drifted East earlier than classical Celts and bottlenecked among Proto-Slavs. Or, the "Pre-Slavic Csltic" branch that is partial Y3120 hasn't been found. Issue with this is no Western Europeans have been found splitting Y3120 to form a closer tmrca.

Varda

07-09-2021, 10:33 PM

According to these K13 ancient samples, Bulgarians are a bit less proto-Slavic than Romanians, with cca 45% on average.

Romanians are more Turkic than Bulgarians, and Bulgarians are more Vlach than Romanians. :puppy_dp:

Constantin

08-02-2021, 10:48 PM

Brothers, I can tell you who's bloodline is "i2", but you may not like what I have to say. Are you still interested?

Loki

08-02-2021, 10:52 PM

Brothers, I can tell you who's bloodline is "i2", but you may not like what I have to say. Are you still interested?

Indigenous Balkan (pre Slavic)

Constantin

08-04-2021, 12:09 AM

Indigenous Balkan (pre Slavic)

Who are these indigenous Balkanic people and why do they speak slavic tongues if their male blood is not of slavic descent? Do you know or should I tell you?

Varda

09-05-2021, 08:59 PM

According to these K13 ancient samples, Bulgarians are a bit less proto-Slavic than Romanians, with cca 45% on average.

https://i.imgur.com/zWNy1qn.png

My people are cca 60% proto-Slavic on average.

https://i.imgur.com/RkjgGWI.png

Can you put for Macedonians?

Jana

09-05-2021, 09:58 PM

It's Pre-Slavic

Central European.

Indigenous Balkan (pre Slavic)

Obviously not, and such wrong information should be put to ground once for all. It's a medieval Slavic marker.

The Kuline individuals are more shifted towards present-day Slavic-speaking populations as compared to individuals in the Central/Northern European cluster, agreeing with the presence of Y-chromosome lineage I2-L621 in Kuline, which is common in present-day Slavic-speaking groups and absent in earlier periods.

(August 2021) https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.458211v1.full

CommonSense

09-06-2021, 01:39 PM

Can you put for Macedonians?

This is my model:

Paleo_Balkan:I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp,34.15 ,12.62,23.19,10.39,15.71,3.56,0.00,0.00,0.38,0.00, 0.00,0.00,0.00
Paleo_Balkan:I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp,33.68,12.0 2,24.41,7.67,19.60,1.39,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.23,0.00,0 .00,0.00
Paleo_Balkan:I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp,30.68,13.0 0,27.73,10.03,16.07,0.60,0.00,1.05,0.00,0.21,0.00, 0.00,0.64
Paleo_Balkan:I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp,24.62,3.48 ,30.00,9.21,28.33,4.36,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0. 00,0.00
Eastern_Mediterranean:Canaanite_,1.63,0.00,14.65,1 5.10,51.26,17.37,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.0 0
Eastern_Mediterranean:Greek_Cappadocian,6.83,3.81, 18.16,27.6,36.59,4.92,0.94,0.03,0.64,0.03,0.4,0,0
Eastern_Mediterranean:R126_Lazio_Frosinone_Roman_I mperial,6.85,0.00,21.95,22.60,37.03,8.91,0.98,0.75 ,0.00,0.00,0.22,0.00,0.71
Eastern_Mediterranean:R128_Lazio_Frosinone_Roman_I mperial,2.63,8.50,21.08,27.13,34.24,5.03,0.00,0.00 ,0.00,0.84,0.55,0.00,0.00
Eastern_Mediterranean:R1550_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imper ial,2.93,0.00,17.45,22.44,37.80,13.78,2.10,0.71,0. 00,0.02,0.31,2.45,0.00
Eastern_Mediterranean:R1551_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imper ial,5.31,0.00,12.60,36.12,34.89,8.22,2.15,0.72,0.0 0,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Slavic:Sungir6_Early_Medieval_Russian_I2a_I2a_,25. 54,45.76,13.11,4.08,6.15,0.53,0.00,0.00,2.60,1.08, 0.58,0.53,0.00
Slavic:AV2_Hungary_Szolad_540_640_AD_540_640_AD_,3 0.33,47.37,11.04,4.58,2.63,0.68,0.49,0.00,1.56,0.8 9,0.00,0.42,0.00
Slavic:Viking_Denmark_Langeland_VK287,27.47,45.26, 8.62,7.09,7.54,0,1.5,0.79,1.13,0.21,0.21,0.16,0
Slavic:Viking_Poland_Cedynia_VK212,29.69,48.84,9.5 3,5.54,1.59,0,1.3,0,1.34,0,0.13,1.42,0.62
Slavic:Viking_Russia_Pskov_VK159,28.62,50.38,7.63, 3.49,4.19,0,2.08,0,0,1.86,0.48,1.27,0
Slavic:Viking_Sweden_Gotland_VK454,25.59,45.53,14. 97,2.7,4.74,0.3,0.73,2.49,0,0.34,1.21,1.4,0
Slavic:Ukraine_Lutsk_Medieval_VK541,23.15,43.28,11 .7,7.62,7.79,1.05,1.58,0,1.18,0.56,0.79,0,1.29
Slavic:Ukraine_Chernigov_VikingAge_VK542,22.48,43. 78,10.72,8.56,9.14,0.26,0,0,1.64,0.82,0.98,0.73,0. 87
Slavic:Viking_Russia_Gnezdovo_VK272,27.1,42.86,8.3 7,4.01,8.44,3.37,1.6,0,1.68,2.01,0,0,0.56
Slavic:Viking_Denmark_Jutland_VK340,28.29,43.29,9. 89,5.02,8.09,0,3.75,0,0.44,0.1,0,1.12,0
Germanic:DA119_Slovakia_Poprad_1600_R_U106_U4b3_37 5_AD_2_,53.37,27.59,18.52,0.33,0.19,0.00,0.00,0.00 ,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Germanic:RISE174_Sweden_IA.SG_1431_ybp,48.47,30.87 ,7.80,5.77,0.58,0.36,2.19,0.00,1.18,1.06,0.56,0.17 ,1.00
Germanic:Alh1_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1500_ybp,5 0.39,26.23,13.00,5.30,0.00,1.40,0.00,1.70,0.00,1.1 1,0.49,0.38,0.00
Germanic:Alh10_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1489_ybp, 50.82,27.96,8.13,4.15,4.48,1.91,0.67,0.31,0.00,1.2 9,0.29,0.00,0.00
Germanic:SZ12_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp,47.25,26. 28,10.75,7.04,5.01,0.00,1.09,0.00,0.00,0.90,1.69,0 .00,0.00
Germanic:SZ15_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp,49.81, 25.15,10.68,7.88,0.66,1.04,2.67,1.49,0.62,0.00,0.0 0,0.00,0.00
Turkic:DA101_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1716_ybp,15 .48,20.81,0.00,25.74,0.00,0.00,10.64,6.48,15.16,4. 45,0.00,0.00,1.24
Turkic:DA104_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1600_ybp,16 .18,18.94,0.00,18.27,0.00,0.00,8.84,7.48,25.18,4.6 1,0.15,0.35,0.00
Turkic:DA105_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_son.DA104.S G_1783_ybp,15.25,20.57,0.86,20.19,0.00,0.00,6.40,8 .60,25.03,3.10,0.00,0.00,0.00
Turkic:DA385_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1467_ybp,15 .92,19.74,0.00,17.23,0.00,0.00,8.70,8.58,24.42,4.8 4,0.00,0.00,0.56
Turkic:DA65_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1511_ybp,23. 89,17.03,0.00,14.40,0.00,0.00,5.83,10.23,21.70,5.3 8,0.04,0.00,1.49
Turkic:DA66_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1447_ybp,14. 78,23.68,0.00,13.28,0.00,0.00,9.32,7.37,24.16,3.46 ,2.08,0.00,1.86
Turkic:DA69_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1516_ybp,17. 53,18.31,0.00,24.71,1.09,0.00,9.68,5.25,20.35,2.89 ,0.20,0.00,0.00

Target: Croat
Distance: 0.3096% / 0.30956233
61.4 Slavic
19.8 Paleo_Balkan
10.0 Germanic
8.8 Eastern_Mediterranean

Target: Bosniak
Distance: 0.2953% / 0.29528408
65.2 Slavic
20.5 Paleo_Balkan
12.3 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.0 Germanic

Target: Serb
Distance: 0.2770% / 0.27701247
58.1 Slavic
32.9 Paleo_Balkan
9.0 Eastern_Mediterranean

Target: Romanian
Distance: 0.1373% / 0.13727092
49.5 Slavic
32.3 Paleo_Balkan
16.4 Eastern_Mediterranean
1.8 Turkic

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 0.1487% / 0.14873144
46.0 Slavic
31.0 Paleo_Balkan
23.0 Eastern_Mediterranean

Target: Pomak_Greece
Distance: 0.9382% / 0.93822173
53.3 Slavic
31.3 Eastern_Mediterranean
15.4 Paleo_Balkan

Target: Pomak_Bulgaria
Distance: 0.7119% / 0.71192413
50.1 Slavic
25.7 Eastern_Mediterranean
24.2 Paleo_Balkan

Target: Macedonian
Distance: 0.8313% / 0.83126767
44.2 Paleo_Balkan
41.0 Slavic
14.8 Eastern_Mediterranean

Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.1054% / 1.10536391
51.8 Paleo_Balkan
33.0 Slavic
15.2 Eastern_Mediterranean

Dušan

09-06-2021, 01:50 PM

Can you put for Macedonians?

https://i.imgur.com/TzlAtq7.png

This is my model:

Paleo_Balkan:I3313_Croatia_Early_IA_2733_ybp,34.15 ,12.62,23.19,10.39,15.71,3.56,0.00,0.00,0.38,0.00, 0.00,0.00,0.00
Paleo_Balkan:I4331_Croatia_MBA_3526_ybp,33.68,12.0 2,24.41,7.67,19.60,1.39,0.00,0.00,0.00,1.23,0.00,0 .00,0.00
Paleo_Balkan:I4332_Croatia_MBA_3516_ybp,30.68,13.0 0,27.73,10.03,16.07,0.60,0.00,1.05,0.00,0.21,0.00, 0.00,0.64
Paleo_Balkan:I5769_Bulgaria_IA_2600_ybp,24.62,3.48 ,30.00,9.21,28.33,4.36,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0. 00,0.00
Eastern_Mediterranean:Canaanite_,1.63,0.00,14.65,1 5.10,51.26,17.37,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.0 0
Eastern_Mediterranean:Greek_Cappadocian,6.83,3.81, 18.16,27.6,36.59,4.92,0.94,0.03,0.64,0.03,0.4,0,0
Eastern_Mediterranean:R126_Lazio_Frosinone_Roman_I mperial,6.85,0.00,21.95,22.60,37.03,8.91,0.98,0.75 ,0.00,0.00,0.22,0.00,0.71
Eastern_Mediterranean:R128_Lazio_Frosinone_Roman_I mperial,2.63,8.50,21.08,27.13,34.24,5.03,0.00,0.00 ,0.00,0.84,0.55,0.00,0.00
Eastern_Mediterranean:R1550_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imper ial,2.93,0.00,17.45,22.44,37.80,13.78,2.10,0.71,0. 00,0.02,0.31,2.45,0.00
Eastern_Mediterranean:R1551_Lazio_Rome_Roman_Imper ial,5.31,0.00,12.60,36.12,34.89,8.22,2.15,0.72,0.0 0,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Slavic:Sungir6_Early_Medieval_Russian_I2a_I2a_,25. 54,45.76,13.11,4.08,6.15,0.53,0.00,0.00,2.60,1.08, 0.58,0.53,0.00
Slavic:AV2_Hungary_Szolad_540_640_AD_540_640_AD_,3 0.33,47.37,11.04,4.58,2.63,0.68,0.49,0.00,1.56,0.8 9,0.00,0.42,0.00
Slavic:Viking_Denmark_Langeland_VK287,27.47,45.26, 8.62,7.09,7.54,0,1.5,0.79,1.13,0.21,0.21,0.16,0
Slavic:Viking_Poland_Cedynia_VK212,29.69,48.84,9.5 3,5.54,1.59,0,1.3,0,1.34,0,0.13,1.42,0.62
Slavic:Viking_Russia_Pskov_VK159,28.62,50.38,7.63, 3.49,4.19,0,2.08,0,0,1.86,0.48,1.27,0
Slavic:Viking_Sweden_Gotland_VK454,25.59,45.53,14. 97,2.7,4.74,0.3,0.73,2.49,0,0.34,1.21,1.4,0
Slavic:Ukraine_Lutsk_Medieval_VK541,23.15,43.28,11 .7,7.62,7.79,1.05,1.58,0,1.18,0.56,0.79,0,1.29
Slavic:Ukraine_Chernigov_VikingAge_VK542,22.48,43. 78,10.72,8.56,9.14,0.26,0,0,1.64,0.82,0.98,0.73,0. 87
Slavic:Viking_Russia_Gnezdovo_VK272,27.1,42.86,8.3 7,4.01,8.44,3.37,1.6,0,1.68,2.01,0,0,0.56
Slavic:Viking_Denmark_Jutland_VK340,28.29,43.29,9. 89,5.02,8.09,0,3.75,0,0.44,0.1,0,1.12,0
Germanic:DA119_Slovakia_Poprad_1600_R_U106_U4b3_37 5_AD_2_,53.37,27.59,18.52,0.33,0.19,0.00,0.00,0.00 ,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00,0.00
Germanic:RISE174_Sweden_IA.SG_1431_ybp,48.47,30.87 ,7.80,5.77,0.58,0.36,2.19,0.00,1.18,1.06,0.56,0.17 ,1.00
Germanic:Alh1_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1500_ybp,5 0.39,26.23,13.00,5.30,0.00,1.40,0.00,1.70,0.00,1.1 1,0.49,0.38,0.00
Germanic:Alh10_Germany_Early_Medieval.SG_1489_ybp, 50.82,27.96,8.13,4.15,4.48,1.91,0.67,0.31,0.00,1.2 9,0.29,0.00,0.00
Germanic:SZ12_Hungary_Langobard_1442_ybp,47.25,26. 28,10.75,7.04,5.01,0.00,1.09,0.00,0.00,0.90,1.69,0 .00,0.00
Germanic:SZ15_Hungary_Langobard.SG_1442_ybp,49.81, 25.15,10.68,7.88,0.66,1.04,2.67,1.49,0.62,0.00,0.0 0,0.00,0.00
Turkic:DA101_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1716_ybp,15 .48,20.81,0.00,25.74,0.00,0.00,10.64,6.48,15.16,4. 45,0.00,0.00,1.24
Turkic:DA104_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1600_ybp,16 .18,18.94,0.00,18.27,0.00,0.00,8.84,7.48,25.18,4.6 1,0.15,0.35,0.00
Turkic:DA105_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_son.DA104.S G_1783_ybp,15.25,20.57,0.86,20.19,0.00,0.00,6.40,8 .60,25.03,3.10,0.00,0.00,0.00
Turkic:DA385_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1467_ybp,15 .92,19.74,0.00,17.23,0.00,0.00,8.70,8.58,24.42,4.8 4,0.00,0.00,0.56
Turkic:DA65_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1511_ybp,23. 89,17.03,0.00,14.40,0.00,0.00,5.83,10.23,21.70,5.3 8,0.04,0.00,1.49
Turkic:DA66_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1447_ybp,14. 78,23.68,0.00,13.28,0.00,0.00,9.32,7.37,24.16,3.46 ,2.08,0.00,1.86
Turkic:DA69_Kyrgyzstan_TianShanHun.SG_1516_ybp,17. 53,18.31,0.00,24.71,1.09,0.00,9.68,5.25,20.35,2.89 ,0.20,0.00,0.00

Target: Croat
Distance: 0.3096% / 0.30956233
61.4 Slavic
19.8 Paleo_Balkan
10.0 Germanic
8.8 Eastern_Mediterranean

Target: Bosniak
Distance: 0.2953% / 0.29528408
65.2 Slavic
20.5 Paleo_Balkan
12.3 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.0 Germanic

Target: Serb
Distance: 0.2770% / 0.27701247
58.1 Slavic
32.9 Paleo_Balkan
9.0 Eastern_Mediterranean

Target: Romanian
Distance: 0.1373% / 0.13727092
49.5 Slavic
32.3 Paleo_Balkan
16.4 Eastern_Mediterranean
1.8 Turkic

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 0.1487% / 0.14873144
46.0 Slavic
31.0 Paleo_Balkan
23.0 Eastern_Mediterranean

Target: Pomak_Greece
Distance: 0.9382% / 0.93822173
53.3 Slavic
31.3 Eastern_Mediterranean
15.4 Paleo_Balkan

Target: Pomak_Bulgaria
Distance: 0.7119% / 0.71192413
50.1 Slavic
25.7 Eastern_Mediterranean
24.2 Paleo_Balkan

Target: Macedonian
Distance: 0.8313% / 0.83126767
44.2 Paleo_Balkan
41.0 Slavic
14.8 Eastern_Mediterranean

Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.1054% / 1.10536391
51.8 Paleo_Balkan
33.0 Slavic
15.2 Eastern_Mediterranean

This is probably better calculator, because paleo-Balkan samples are different than East Med that came during Roman Empire colonisation.

CommonSense

09-06-2021, 02:08 PM

https://i.imgur.com/TzlAtq7.png

This is probably better calculator, because paleo-Balkan samples are different than East Med that came during Roman Empire colonisation.

For sure. Just look at the example of Bulgarians and Macedonians. Using the former cacluator the only difference between the two that you would notice is that Bulgarians have somewhat more Slavic admixture. However, if you break down the Paleo-Balkan and Roman into two, we can see that Bulgarians also have more "Roman", East Med admix and less Iron Age Balkans. This is true in particular for Pomaks who could basically be modelled as East Slav + Cretean :D

Catalyn

09-06-2021, 02:37 PM

In order to find out, we need to understand what Slavic means, so let's start with the beginning:
Historically, man broke away from the monkey in Africa a long time ago. So that is the origin of the Slavic language, because that is where man began to speak.
Then man migrated all over the globe where there were the necessary conditions for survival.
Coexistence at great distances between groups of people has made people's languages differ significantly. Thus, the more distant 2 groups of people were, the more likely there is that their language (but also the phenotype / genotype) will be more distant.
But there have always been migrations. Migrations occurred for infinite reasons, and mainly all had a common goal: a better life. But the way these migrations took place was different: wars, invasions, rapes, religions, the nomadic spirit, and the simple desire to explore the world (because man was not created to stand still).
All this made the original human populations in Africa, which arrived on new continents and formed a certain isolated culture, to mix with other isolated cultures.
But don't forget, in the beginning there was only one culture and one language, in Africa, where man appeared.
But look, the cultures mixed together with the phenotypes and genotypes.
This flow of mixing cultures has been unceasing since the advent of man.
The results of the mixes were always a unique culture, a unique genotype, a unique phenotype, a unique language, a unique culture.
If we talk about the Slavic language, we know that the Proto-Slavic language was the result of a unique culture, a unique mix and a unique destiny.
We cannot speak of the Slavic language as originating in the area of Belarus (and neighboring countries), until we understand that there was only a uniqueness, consisting of mixtures of populations and older from all continents of the world and a constant flow of migration.
Well, this is how the languages from which today are spoken the languages classified as Slavic (Eastern, Western and Southern) were formed.
We cannot say that I2 is not Slavic, because the Balkans and the area of formation of the original Slavic language were not very far away.
Therefore, Slavic languages and Balkan languages have always been slightly similar, Balkan components played an important role in the formation of the first unique Slavic culture. And Nordic components have always played an important role in forming the first unique culture of Balkan languages.
But people like to create borders and differences, so people have created a border and a difference between south and north.
The Slavic languages were in the north and the Balkan languages in the south.
Also, the genetics (along with the phenotype) of the Slavs was represented by a Nordic image, while the Balkan languages were related to the south.
Differences between north and south became bigger while these 2 areas created a bigger difference, they put stable borders, they created different and unique cultures.
Therefore, the Balkans were not Slavs, and the Slavs were no longer Balkans (Although they were always the same).
A few more years pass, and the Slavs migrate in this continuous flow to the south, that is, to the Balkans.
A few more years pass, and the 100% Slavic language no longer exists, because man does not stand still, the language evolves, catches new influences, and even without influences people simply change their words (finding a better, more beautiful one, an accent more interesting, more pleasant, more melodious, etc.).
Because there is no longer 100% Slavic, there is only 100% modern Slavic, both the Eastern, Western and Southern Slavs represent 100% modern Slavic. The conclusion is clear: I2 is Slavic too, and I2 has always been Slavic because it played an important role in the formation of the first Slavic language in the north due to the continuous flow, and there would be no Slavic language without influence from Balkans at a very short distance.
Also:
The oldest history is not written. We know that the Slavs formed around Belarus (and neighboring countries), but we cannot say that there was only one other population that was Slavicized by people from the Balkans who spoke a Slavic language, they migrated to Belarus ( and neighboring countries), Slavized, and in the meantime in the Balkans the Slavic language changed to a Balkan language, and then returned to its roots. (Slavic)
In fact, we humans know nothing, we just believe and research. So the chances like what I wrote above are not 0%.
So, what conclusion did you come to? '' Origins of I2a1: Is it Slavic? ''.
Each person will have a different conclusion, a different perspective, a different level of intelligence, a different education, different historical knowledge, in addition manipulation plays an important role. In general, the original Slavs are the ones who want the manipulators. The origin of the Slavs can be in Africa (scientific) or in Babylon (religious), there are 736 variants, 834 religions and 928 scientific variants. Choose one to believe.

Aspirin

09-06-2021, 04:00 PM

This is my model:

For Moldavians works very bad.

Ion Basescul

09-06-2021, 04:21 PM

In order to find out,

Holy mother of essays

CommonSense

09-06-2021, 05:05 PM

For Moldavians works very bad.

It doesn't seem particularly off to me:

Target: Moldova_Ukrainian
Distance: 0.1413% / 0.14128064
88.2 Slavic
5.1 Eastern_Mediterranean
4.1 Paleo_Balkan
1.9 Germanic
0.7 Turkic

Target: Moldova_South_Gagauzia
Distance: 0.2944% / 0.29444605
45.4 Slavic
30.3 Eastern_Mediterranean
24.0 Paleo_Balkan
0.3 Turkic

Target: Moldova_South
Distance: 0.1960% / 0.19595261
53.1 Slavic
28.0 Paleo_Balkan
16.9 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.0 Turkic

Target: Moldova_North
Distance: 0.4337% / 0.43366467
67.8 Slavic
15.9 Eastern_Mediterranean
12.8 Paleo_Balkan
2.1 Germanic
1.4 Turkic

Target: Moldova_Centre
Distance: 0.1433% / 0.14329267
62.6 Slavic
19.6 Paleo_Balkan
13.9 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.7 Turkic
1.2 Germanic

Target: Moldova_average
Distance: 0.0957% / 0.09569908
62.9 Slavic
20.3 Paleo_Balkan
13.8 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.1 Turkic
0.9 Germanic

Aspirin

09-06-2021, 05:36 PM

It doesn't seem particularly off to me:

Target: Moldova_Ukrainian
Distance: 0.1413% / 0.14128064
88.2 Slavic
5.1 Eastern_Mediterranean
4.1 Paleo_Balkan
1.9 Germanic
0.7 Turkic

Target: Moldova_South_Gagauzia
Distance: 0.2944% / 0.29444605
45.4 Slavic
30.3 Eastern_Mediterranean
24.0 Paleo_Balkan
0.3 Turkic

Target: Moldova_South
Distance: 0.1960% / 0.19595261
53.1 Slavic
28.0 Paleo_Balkan
16.9 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.0 Turkic

Target: Moldova_North
Distance: 0.4337% / 0.43366467
67.8 Slavic
15.9 Eastern_Mediterranean
12.8 Paleo_Balkan
2.1 Germanic
1.4 Turkic

Target: Moldova_Centre
Distance: 0.1433% / 0.14329267
62.6 Slavic
19.6 Paleo_Balkan
13.9 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.7 Turkic
1.2 Germanic

Target: Moldova_average
Distance: 0.0957% / 0.09569908
62.9 Slavic
20.3 Paleo_Balkan
13.8 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.1 Turkic
0.9 Germanic

In the north is more East Mediterranean than Paleo Balkan, which don't make any sense. In south where live many Gagauz is more normal since they score big amount of West Asian.

For example people from Bălți city score more Paleo Balkan and are more Turkic, but people from surrounding areas score more East Mediterranean and less Turkic.

Target: Moldova_Balti_city_North
Distance: 0.1407% / 0.14066459
65.3 Slavic
21.5 Paleo_Balkan
9.8 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.8 Turkic
0.6 Germanic

Target: Moldova_Balti_North
Distance: 0.4366% / 0.43659500
65.8 Slavic
16.8 Eastern_Mediterranean
14.1 Paleo_Balkan
1.9 Turkic
1.4 Germanic

Plus this Turkic thing is dubious. For example in Bălți city live many Russians, and Russian modeled like this score big amount of Turkic, which again, don't make any sense.

Target: Russian_average
Distance: 2.4811% / 2.48110516
89.8 Slavic
10.2 Turkic

Target: Russian_Kargopol
Distance: 4.4628% / 4.46283164
84.3 Slavic
15.7 Turkic

Target: Russian_Kostroma
Distance: 4.2846% / 4.28455183
85.7 Slavic
14.3 Turkic

Target: Russian_Northern_Dvina
Distance: 6.6735% / 6.67352070
84.6 Slavic
15.4 Turkic

Target: Russian_Smolensk
Distance: 1.9616% / 1.96162070
100.0 Slavic

Target: Russian_Southwest
Distance: 1.5843% / 1.58434279
96.9 Slavic
3.1 Turkic

CommonSense

09-06-2021, 05:51 PM

In the north is more East Mediterranean than Paleo Balkan, which don't make any sense. In south where live many Gagauz is more normal since they score big amount of West Asian.

For example people from Bălți city score more Paleo Balkan and are more Turkic, but people from surrounding areas score more East Mediterranean and less Turkic.

Target: Moldova_Balti_city_North
Distance: 0.1407% / 0.14066459
65.3 Slavic
21.5 Paleo_Balkan
9.8 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.8 Turkic
0.6 Germanic

Target: Moldova_Balti_North
Distance: 0.4366% / 0.43659500
65.8 Slavic
16.8 Eastern_Mediterranean
14.1 Paleo_Balkan
1.9 Turkic
1.4 Germanic

Plus this Turkic thing is dubious. For example in Bălți city live many Russians, and Russian modeled like this score big amount of Turkic, which again, don't make any sense.

Target: Russian_average
Distance: 2.4811% / 2.48110516
89.8 Slavic
10.2 Turkic

Target: Russian_Kargopol
Distance: 4.4628% / 4.46283164
84.3 Slavic
15.7 Turkic

Target: Russian_Kostroma
Distance: 4.2846% / 4.28455183
85.7 Slavic
14.3 Turkic

Target: Russian_Northern_Dvina
Distance: 6.6735% / 6.67352070
84.6 Slavic
15.4 Turkic

Target: Russian_Smolensk
Distance: 1.9616% / 1.96162070
100.0 Slavic

Target: Russian_Southwest
Distance: 1.5843% / 1.58434279
96.9 Slavic
3.1 Turkic

The model was made for Balkanites, not Russians. Their Siberian admix comes from a Uralic-like source (hence the much larger distances), which is not the case for Romanians and Moldavians.
And despite the minor flaws, it's the best model we can come up with right now. Once the samples from the Viminacium paper are published, we can make an even better one using over a dozen Iron Age samples, as well as our own local 'Romans' (instead of the ones from Italy), Goths, Sarmatians and the Early Slavic samples we already posess.

Sandis

09-06-2021, 05:55 PM

Haplogroup I2a1 was represented in the territory of Latvia already 6300 YBP among Mesolithic/Neolithic hunter-gatherers.
Source here: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/325928943_Population_Genetics_of_Latvians_in_the_C ontext_of_Admixture_between_North-Eastern_European_Ethnic_Groups

Catalyn is right. We need to understand what Slavic means.
I found some possible explanations in this article (i haven't checked everything yet, but sounds meaningful, just read and think):

Balto-Slavic
The late Sredny Stog Middle Dnieper Culture grew from conservative peripheral IE dialects related to Yamna Satem, with admixture of different assimilated indigenous peoples from Dnieper Donets and the Tripolye culture
of Central Europe, as well as subgroups of Centum Globular Amphora contributors (w/ TRB, BBC), and a host of others (<font size="2">re: remnant Middle Dnieper Repins,
Baden ( w/ R1a M420, M198 & M417) traders</font>). The ethnogenesis of these distinct dialects with assimilated indigenous peoples formed various diverse regional "Balto-Slavic" creole speakers, which were  localized as the poly-ethnic "<i>Europeanized </i>" peripheral Satem creole dialects of Baltic and Slavic closely related to early Pit-grave Âryan, yet distinctly different even then, with diverse degrees of admixture
within regional subgroups. The Balto-Slavic type poly-ethnic Middle Dnieper culture was a fusion of diverse ethnic groups - a melting pot - so to speak, with a "retro" core of Satem creole dialects.

* TRB: Funnelbeaker culture
* BBC: Bell Beaker culture

Full source: http://suduva.com/virdainas/proto.htm

Ion Basescul

09-06-2021, 06:06 PM

The model was made for Balkanites, not Russians.

Sad non-Moldovan noises

https://i.ibb.co/Dry4CgM/image.png

Aspirin

09-06-2021, 06:11 PM

The model was made for Balkanites, not Russians. Their Siberian admix comes from a Uralic-like source (hence the much larger distances), which is not the case for Romanians and Moldavians.
And despite the minor flaws, it's the best model we can come up with right now. Once the samples from the Viminacium paper are published, we can make an even better one using over a dozen Iron Age samples, as well as our own local 'Romans' (instead of the ones from Italy), Goths, Sarmatians and the Early Slavic samples we already posess.

In this region this model works bad. I tried same thing in Western Ukraine where people have visible Balkan influence. Same chaotic results.

Target: Ukrainian_Lvivska
Distance: 0.3154% / 0.31539606
82.2 Slavic
6.7 Eastern_Mediterranean
5.8 Germanic
5.3 Paleo_Balkan

Target: Ukrainian_Zakarpatska
Distance: 0.1466% / 0.14663590
77.9 Slavic
8.8 Paleo_Balkan
7.3 Eastern_Mediterranean
4.8 Germanic
1.2 Turkic

Target: Ukrainian_Ivano-Frankivska
Distance: 0.2594% / 0.25944292
82.8 Slavic
15.5 Paleo_Balkan
1.1 Germanic
0.6 Eastern_Mediterranean

Target: Ukrainian_Ternopilska
Distance: 0.4907% / 0.49072481
73.6 Slavic
10.9 Germanic
8.8 Eastern_Mediterranean
6.7 Paleo_Balkan

Target: Ukrainian_Chernivetska
Distance: 0.3983% / 0.39831994
70.4 Slavic
18.4 Eastern_Mediterranean
7.5 Germanic
3.2 Paleo_Balkan
0.5 Turkic

In the north MD the most Turkic is the city of Bălți, where live many Russians, rest of region score less, but more Germanic.

Target: Moldova_Edinet_North
Distance: 0.2073% / 0.20726683
66.5 Slavic
17.3 Paleo_Balkan
12.7 Eastern_Mediterranean
3.3 Germanic
0.2 Turkic

Target: Moldova_Soroca_North
Distance: 0.2631% / 0.26313591
66.2 Slavic
17.7 Eastern_Mediterranean
10.4 Paleo_Balkan
3.9 Germanic
1.8 Turkic

Target: Moldova_Balti_North
Distance: 0.4424% / 0.44239707
66.2 Slavic
17.1 Eastern_Mediterranean
13.3 Paleo_Balkan
1.9 Turkic
1.5 Germanic

Target: Moldova_Balti_city_North
Distance: 0.1349% / 0.13489970
65.4 Slavic
21.4 Paleo_Balkan
9.6 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.8 Turkic
0.8 Germanic

Ion Basescul

09-06-2021, 06:19 PM

In this region this model works bad. I tried same thing in Western Ukraine where people have visible Balkan influence. Same chaotic results.

Target: Moldova_Balti_North
Distance: 0.4424% / 0.44239707
66.2 Slavic
17.1 Eastern_Mediterranean
13.3 Paleo_Balkan
1.9 Turkic
1.5 Germanic

Target: Moldova_Balti_city_North
Distance: 0.1349% / 0.13489970
65.4 Slavic
21.4 Paleo_Balkan
9.6 Eastern_Mediterranean
2.8 Turkic
0.8 Germanic

Your nigga with the Ukrainian surname from Glodeni pushes into 8% and so do I. 2% is nothing.
But with Germanic something is dodgy. Balti city scores more NW Euro ancestry than Balti county, by a difference of 2%, probably due to admix with Ukrainians, who unlike Russians can comfortably push past 30%.
Though I removed 2 outlier samples from the city average:

<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">
<tbody>
N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan

31.58
28.15
14.20
2.22
17.21
1.23
2.15
0
1.86
0
1.40
0
0

26.54
37.53
12.93
9.52
6.52
2.11
1.42
0.52
2.04
0.89
0
0
0

</tbody>
</google-sheets-html-origin>
The second one reminds me of this person from Balti, who is 10/16 Ukrainian and 6/16 Moldovan/Romanian, which someone from this forum posted here:

<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">
<tbody>
N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan

27.18
36.15
11.95
9.09
9.72
2.43
0.98
0
2.06
0
0.22
0.23
0

</tbody>
</google-sheets-html-origin>

Dick

09-06-2021, 06:23 PM

CommonSense

09-06-2021, 06:37 PM

There’s sarmatian samples too? I think the Goth samples were actually Lombards, they’re Z58 from what I’ve seen. The goths from wielbark and two Crimean goths that were tested are Z63. Also no P109 which shows it clearly came later on with the Normans.

There are several samples that fall into the Central-North Euro cluster. I'm not sure if they're really all 'Goths', but I guess they would be a good proxy for what historians and other researchers call 'Eastern Germanic'. And two of the samples are clearly Central-East Euro Sarmatians:

https://i.ibb.co/KWB8Gfp/New-Project-7.jpg

Ion Basescul

09-06-2021, 06:47 PM

There’s sarmatian samples too?

Sarmatians were already available from Moldova. Also Cimmerians

Arūnas

09-06-2021, 06:50 PM

they are all Luthers
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#famous_people

Dick

09-06-2021, 06:50 PM

There are several samples that fall into the Central-North Euro cluster. I'm not sure if they're really all 'Goths', but I guess they would be a good proxy for what historians and other researchers call 'Eastern Germanic'. And two of the samples are clearly Central-East Euro Sarmatians:

https://i.ibb.co/KWB8Gfp/New-Project-7.jpg

Well they all came from the Baltic areas so I Don’t see why they would have a lot of west med or whatever DNA component to shift them westward

Dick

09-06-2021, 06:51 PM

Sarmatians were already available from Moldova. Also Cimmerians

Missed that. Can you post results? Who are they closest to?

Ion Basescul

09-06-2021, 07:00 PM

Missed that. Can you post results? Who are they closest to?

I got them for G25, not sure if anyone's converted them to K13.

Distance to: Sarmatian_MDA:I11926
0.09874680 Komi
0.09900817 Udmurt_o2
0.10180092 Russian_Leshukonsky
0.10270346 Tajik_Rushan
0.10487800 Udmurt_o1
0.10765398 Mordovian
0.10779938 Tatar_Mishar
0.10811445 Tajik_Shugnan
0.10824379 Russian_Pinezhsky
0.11017441 Tatar_Kazan
0.11080558 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.11186235 Russian_Kostroma
0.11209794 Karelian
0.11215510 Besermyan
0.11298225 Finnish_East
0.11333753 Udmurt_o3
0.11386746 Vepsian
0.11396823 Ingrian
0.11416021 Russian_Pinega
0.11549309 Finnish
0.11600709 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.11946516 Saami_Kola
0.11952869 Tajik_Badakshan
0.12001801 Cossack_Kuban
0.12154596 Darginian

Distance to: Sarmatian_MDA:I11925
0.07381910 Tatar_Mishar
0.07501879 Tajik_Rushan
0.08193214 Tatar_Kazan
0.08220266 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.08227619 Udmurt_o2
0.08282787 Tajik_Shugnan
0.08545080 Komi
0.09005201 Mordovian
0.09246243 Udmurt_o3
0.09271678 Tajik_Badakshan
0.09527981 Kaitag
0.09528535 Darginian
0.09586761 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.09597153 Russian_Leshukonsky
0.09682494 Russian_Kostroma
0.09693873 Turkish_Deliorman
0.09701896 Udmurt_o1
0.09704537 Tajik
0.09746998 Avar
0.09756670 Besermyan
0.09908756 Lak
0.09995922 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.10018274 Tabasaran
0.10162502 Kubachinian
0.10168402 Russian_Pinezhsky

Distance to: MDA_Cimmerian:cim359
0.04780383 Bashkir
0.06484844 Tatar_Siberian
0.08476610 Uzbek
0.09242711 Nogai
0.09688054 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
0.10210004 Tatar_Lipka
0.10241291 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.10257526 Udmurt
0.10410710 Hazara_Afghanistan
0.10422802 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
0.10715829 Uygur
0.10851948 Turkmen
0.11039895 Besermyan
0.11152477 Hazara
0.11428243 Karakalpak
0.11706699 Yukagir_Forest
0.12181027 Saami
0.12395189 Tubalar
0.12437109 Udmurt_o1
0.12759444 Tatar_Kazan
0.13025807 Tlingit
0.13067104 Chuvash
0.13089759 Udmurt_o3
0.13638413 Mari
0.13818899 Iranian_Turkmen_Golestan

Distance to: MDA_Cimmerian:cim358
0.06760858 Tajik
0.07299889 Tatar_Kazan
0.07304098 Tatar_Lipka
0.07633474 Tajik_Rushan
0.07762774 Tajik_Shugnan
0.07853827 Sarikoli_China
0.08004930 Tajik_Badakshan
0.08054641 Iranian_Turkmen_Golestan
0.08254634 Besermyan
0.08307034 Turkmen
0.08615963 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
0.08896649 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.09032608 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
0.09192645 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.09259327 Udmurt_o1
0.09284283 Tatar_Mishar
0.09562588 Udmurt
0.10014868 Udmurt_o2
0.10177851 Udmurt_o3
0.10188217 Komi
0.10629714 Turkish_Northwest
0.10730308 Turkish_Balikesir
0.11082211 Turkish_South
0.11154967 Turkish_Southwest
0.11214659 Chuvash

Distance to: MDA_Cimmerian:cim357
0.07748461 Tatar_Mishar
0.08045418 Udmurt_o2
0.08074032 Komi
0.08259586 Tatar_Kazan
0.08632057 Russian_Leshukonsky
0.08798918 Mordovian
0.08994029 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.09097002 Russian_Kostroma
0.09126662 Udmurt_o1
0.09283926 Russian_Pinezhsky
0.09298924 Finnish_East
0.09301847 Finnish
0.09420479 Ingrian
0.09471076 Karelian
0.09542956 Udmurt_o3
0.09549907 Besermyan
0.09581792 Vepsian
0.09655473 Russian_Pinega
0.09671225 Tajik_Rushan
0.09881065 Cossack_Kuban
0.10269947 Norwegian
0.10323492 Russian_Ryazan
0.10333038 Tajik_Shugnan
0.10350327 Russian_Tver
0.10414296 Saami_Kola

CommonSense

09-06-2021, 07:03 PM

Well they all came from the Baltic areas so I Don’t see why they would have a lot of west med or whatever DNA component to shift them westward

Yeah, I found that odd myself. They probably mixed with the Celts in Central Europe.

vbnetkhio

09-06-2021, 07:04 PM

I got them for G25, not sure if anyone's converted them to K13.

Distance to: Sarmatian_MDA:I11926
0.09874680 Komi
0.09900817 Udmurt_o2
0.10180092 Russian_Leshukonsky
0.10270346 Tajik_Rushan
0.10487800 Udmurt_o1
0.10765398 Mordovian
0.10779938 Tatar_Mishar
0.10811445 Tajik_Shugnan
0.10824379 Russian_Pinezhsky
0.11017441 Tatar_Kazan
0.11080558 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.11186235 Russian_Kostroma
0.11209794 Karelian
0.11215510 Besermyan
0.11298225 Finnish_East
0.11333753 Udmurt_o3
0.11386746 Vepsian
0.11396823 Ingrian
0.11416021 Russian_Pinega
0.11549309 Finnish
0.11600709 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.11946516 Saami_Kola
0.11952869 Tajik_Badakshan
0.12001801 Cossack_Kuban
0.12154596 Darginian

Distance to: Sarmatian_MDA:I11925
0.07381910 Tatar_Mishar
0.07501879 Tajik_Rushan
0.08193214 Tatar_Kazan
0.08220266 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.08227619 Udmurt_o2
0.08282787 Tajik_Shugnan
0.08545080 Komi
0.09005201 Mordovian
0.09246243 Udmurt_o3
0.09271678 Tajik_Badakshan
0.09527981 Kaitag
0.09528535 Darginian
0.09586761 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.09597153 Russian_Leshukonsky
0.09682494 Russian_Kostroma
0.09693873 Turkish_Deliorman
0.09701896 Udmurt_o1
0.09704537 Tajik
0.09746998 Avar
0.09756670 Besermyan
0.09908756 Lak
0.09995922 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.10018274 Tabasaran
0.10162502 Kubachinian
0.10168402 Russian_Pinezhsky

Distance to: MDA_Cimmerian:cim359
0.04780383 Bashkir
0.06484844 Tatar_Siberian
0.08476610 Uzbek
0.09242711 Nogai
0.09688054 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
0.10210004 Tatar_Lipka
0.10241291 Tatar_Siberian_Zabolotniye
0.10257526 Udmurt
0.10410710 Hazara_Afghanistan
0.10422802 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
0.10715829 Uygur
0.10851948 Turkmen
0.11039895 Besermyan
0.11152477 Hazara
0.11428243 Karakalpak
0.11706699 Yukagir_Forest
0.12181027 Saami
0.12395189 Tubalar
0.12437109 Udmurt_o1
0.12759444 Tatar_Kazan
0.13025807 Tlingit
0.13067104 Chuvash
0.13089759 Udmurt_o3
0.13638413 Mari
0.13818899 Iranian_Turkmen_Golestan

Distance to: MDA_Cimmerian:cim358
0.06760858 Tajik
0.07299889 Tatar_Kazan
0.07304098 Tatar_Lipka
0.07633474 Tajik_Rushan
0.07762774 Tajik_Shugnan
0.07853827 Sarikoli_China
0.08004930 Tajik_Badakshan
0.08054641 Iranian_Turkmen_Golestan
0.08254634 Besermyan
0.08307034 Turkmen
0.08615963 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
0.08896649 Tajik_Ishkashim
0.09032608 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
0.09192645 Tajik_Yagnobi
0.09259327 Udmurt_o1
0.09284283 Tatar_Mishar
0.09562588 Udmurt
0.10014868 Udmurt_o2
0.10177851 Udmurt_o3
0.10188217 Komi
0.10629714 Turkish_Northwest
0.10730308 Turkish_Balikesir
0.11082211 Turkish_South
0.11154967 Turkish_Southwest
0.11214659 Chuvash

Distance to: MDA_Cimmerian:cim357
0.07748461 Tatar_Mishar
0.08045418 Udmurt_o2
0.08074032 Komi
0.08259586 Tatar_Kazan
0.08632057 Russian_Leshukonsky
0.08798918 Mordovian
0.08994029 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.09097002 Russian_Kostroma
0.09126662 Udmurt_o1
0.09283926 Russian_Pinezhsky
0.09298924 Finnish_East
0.09301847 Finnish
0.09420479 Ingrian
0.09471076 Karelian
0.09542956 Udmurt_o3
0.09549907 Besermyan
0.09581792 Vepsian
0.09655473 Russian_Pinega
0.09671225 Tajik_Rushan
0.09881065 Cossack_Kuban
0.10269947 Norwegian
0.10323492 Russian_Ryazan
0.10333038 Tajik_Shugnan
0.10350327 Russian_Tver
0.10414296 Saami_Kola

Did those MDA Sarmatians get added recently? This is my first time seeing them.

Dick

09-06-2021, 07:08 PM

Ion Basescul

09-06-2021, 07:13 PM

Did those MDA Sarmatians get added recently? This is my first time seeing them.

No, they were in Davidski's spreadsheet for a while/
i11925 is from Cimislia district, while i11926 is from Taraclia (Ciumai).

I11925 Cimișlia, Rep. of Moldova, Tumulus 8, Grave 7 2,050-1,850
I11926 Ciumai, Rep. of Moldova, Tumulus 1, Grave 10 4,000-1,000

I think they are from here (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.08.19.256412v1).

vbnetkhio

09-06-2021, 07:15 PM

No, they were in Davidski's spreadsheet for a while/
i11925 is from Cimislia district, while i11926 is from Taraclia (Ciumai).

I11925 Cimișlia, Rep. of Moldova, Tumulus 8, Grave 7 2,050-1,850
I11926 Ciumai, Rep. of Moldova, Tumulus 1, Grave 10 4,000-1,000

I think they are from here (https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.08.19.256412v1).

Could you put them on a vahaduo PCA with other Sarmatians and Scythians?

Ion Basescul

09-06-2021, 07:30 PM

Could you put them on a vahaduo PCA with other Sarmatians and Scythians?

https://i.ibb.co/P1Lwmtz/image.png

vbnetkhio

09-06-2021, 07:37 PM

https://i.ibb.co/P1Lwmtz/image.png

That's unusual, one is a typical Sarmatian and the other is in the middle of nowhere.

From these samples it seems that Scythians were eventually completely replaced by Sarmatians.

Aspirin

09-07-2021, 07:01 AM

<tbody>
N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan

26.54
37.53
12.93
9.52
6.52
2.11
1.42
0.52
2.04
0.89
0
0
0

</tbody>

Target: Balti_results
Distance: 1.1650% / 1.16495979
72.2 Slavic
10.6 Paleo_Balkan
9.7 Eastern_Mediterranean
7.5 Turkic :lol:

By CommonSense logic this "Turkic" thing came from Moldavian side. :biggrin:

Ion Basescul

09-07-2021, 09:36 AM

Target: Balti_results
Distance: 1.1650% / 1.16495979
72.2 Slavic
10.6 Paleo_Balkan
9.7 Eastern_Mediterranean
7.5 Turkic :lol:

By CommonSense logic this "Turkic" thing came from Moldavian side. :biggrin:

It's hard to tell where it comes for sure, but this individual looks something like half or more Russian.
In Moldovans though, Tatars could be one cause, but I personally don't really buy this, because families should have an oral history of a foreign individual, especially if they were of a different faith. Also I can't speak for others, but I did my research with all the tests that I've done, and I've yet to meet a match from Crimea, Kazakhstan, Kazan, Turkey, etc. This is probably either some kind of medieval survival of genes, akin to Csangos and Szeklers who score even more East Asian trace, or a survival of genes older than that. For example Sarmatians, Cimmerians and non-Getae Scythians from Moldova scored heavily on East Asian-like admix. In people mixed with Russians, this will be from their Russian side.

Fun fact, I was thinking that Turanic traits in the family come from the side in Trebujeni, but it's actually Susleni. My paternal grandma's mother was born there and settled in Trebujeni when she married. So my theory on the Mongol element surviving in Trebujeni because of it having been a Golden Horde town at some point is irrelevant for me.

Aspirin

09-10-2021, 05:34 PM

It's hard to tell where it comes for sure, but this individual looks something like half or more Russian.

It is, very high Baltic and very low East Med.

Fun fact, I was thinking that Turanic traits in the family come from the side in Trebujeni, but it's actually Susleni. My paternal grandma's mother was born there and settled in Trebujeni when she married.

Irrelevant for Orhei.

VikLevaPatel

05-13-2022, 08:52 PM

I2 haplogroups (https://archive.ph/l9kYj) are likely to have been introduced into the Neolithic pool through admixture with hunter-gatherers. I2a has indeed been found in Mesolithic and Neolithic (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274009432_Tracing_the_genetic_origin_of_Europe's_f irst_farmers_reveals_insights_into_their_social_or ganization) Central and North European hunter–gatherers, as well as in Neolithic remains of southwestern Europe. Haplogroup I2a (and possibly I1) might represent a pre-farming legacy of the NRY variation in Europe, alongside the recently described pre-Neolithic C (M130) haplogroups in Russia and Spain.

The R1a haplogroup (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Anna-Juras/publication/336369181_The_genomic_ancestry_of_the_Scandinavian _Battle_Axe_Culture_people_and_their_relation_to_t he_broader_Corded_Ware_horizon/links/5d9e07bea6fdcc04fac5d95e/The-genomic-ancestry-of-the-Scandinavian-Battle-Axe-Culture-people-and-their-relation-to-the-broader-Corded-Ware-horizon.pdf) has not been found among Neolithic farmer populations nor in hunter–gatherer groups in central and western Europe. Uniquely in northern and central Europe, most of the male lineages were inherited from the local Neolithic (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Summary-of-genetic-and-archaeological-information-about-the-27-individuals-in-the-study_tbl1_332518003). Haplogroups I1 and I2a1 are most frequent in present-day populations of Europe (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274009432_Tracing_the_genetic_origin_of_Europe's_f irst_farmers_reveals_insights_into_their_social_or ganization), with the highest frequencies in Scandinavian and southeast European populations, respectively.

Haplogroup I2a (https://www.google.com/search?q=I2a+haplogroup+old+european&rlz=1C1GCEA_enAU973AU973&biw=1600&bih=757&sxsrf=ALiCzsYAjRDq8lZ2kejHMAP0_AL9R22fIw%3A1652483 460353&ei=hOV-Ys-UFcmWseMPq7KkeA&ved=0ahUKEwjP5prNzN33AhVJS2wGHSsZCQ8Q4dUDCA4&uact=5&oq=I2a+haplogroup+old+european&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAMyBQghEKABMgUIIRCgAToECCMQJzo ECAAQQzoFCAAQgAQ6BggAEBYQHjoICAAQFhAKEB46BAgAEA06C AghEBYQHRAeOgcIIRAKEKABSgQIQRgASgQIRhgAUABYtSJgpiV oAHABeACAAecBiAHmH5IBBjAuMjEuMpgBAKABAcABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz) was the most frequent Y-DNA among western European mesolithic hunter gatherers (WHG) (https://archive.ph/YOLfp#selection-921.1-925.132) belonging to Villabruna Cluster. A 2015 study found haplogroup I2a in 13,500 year old remains from the Azilian culture (from Grotte du Bichon, modern Switzerland).

Y-Chromosome Haplogroups in the Bosnian-Herzegovinian Population Based on 23 Y-STR Loci: (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Distribution-of-in-silico-assigned-Y-chromosome-haplogroups-in_tbl2_316560799) ".. most prevalent haplogroup appears to be I2a, which accounts for a total of 49%, while E1b1b and R1a represent the second most abundant haplogroups, each accounting for 17% of all Y chromosomes in the studied population. The remaining six haplogroups appear to be present to a smaller extent in the following manner (https://archive.ph/8jqGb#selection-663.3-663.151) (Table 2 and Figure 2): J2a (5%), I1 (4%), R1b (4%), J2b (2%), G2a (1%) and N (1%)."

Bosnian-Herzegovinan population using Whit Athey's Haplogroup Predictor: https://i.ibb.co/MnFJKCK/90.png, https://archive.ph/AcknE/903bdba9860e4e11eba41342adc825c72459644f.png

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Distribution of Y-haplogroups in the Slovak population: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Distribution-of-Y-haplogroups-in-the-Slovak-population_tbl2_236178497, https://archive.ph/Z6Cog/faa1b6fcccc8e29e138da680897c8aba259e8b73.png

Frequencies of Y-haplogroups (%) found in the nine populations from the Balto-Slavic language family: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Frequencies-of-Y-haplogroups-found-in-the-nine-populations-from-the-Balto-Slavic_tbl6_236178497, https://archive.ph/UhRb5/3be29e2ede0d486df29df4d03e44160e6240e88d.png, https://i.ibb.co/gT1DMZm/3.png

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GeneaologyWise states (https://archive.ph/wG0XD#selection-467.0-467.180) — and probably correctly so — that "Haplogroup I2a1a2b-L621, or to be precise, its subclade Y3120, is often considered as another "Slavic" haplogroup (beside R1a-Z282), which is wrong and scientifically inadmissible."

GeneaologyWise, furthermore states (https://archive.ph/wG0XD#selection-531.0-535.408), that the haplogroup I2a is believed to have been one of the haplogroups of the first anatomically modern humans to inhabit Europe, Cro-Magnons, and while it is obvious that most of today's European R1a people are the Slavs, the R1b people are the Celts (or, to be precise: not all R1b men are the Celts, but all Celts are R1b!!), and I1a people are the "Northmen" or Germans in general, the ancestors of these people were not known by those names 3000 years ago. But they nevertheless inherited the same (basal) Y-DNA lineages which "genetic" Slavs, Celts, and Northmen/Germans inherit today.

Debbie Kennett (2011) writes in DNA and Social Networking (https://www.google.com/books/edition/DNA_and_Social_Networking/MEM7AwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=GeneaologyWise,+www.genealogywise.com,+is+a+ded icated+genealogy+social+networking+website+which+w as+launched+in+the+summer+of+2009.+The+site+was+cr eated+by+Family+Link,+a+new+company+launched+in+20 06+by+Paul+Allen.%22&pg=PA137&printsec=frontcover) regarding this social network especially for genealogists: "GeneaologyWise, www.genealogywise.com, is a dedicated genealogy social networking website which was launched in the summer of 2009. The site was created by Family Link, a new company launched in 2006 by Paul Allen."

GeneaologyWise is correct in pointing out (https://archive.ph/wG0XD#selection-543.0-543.94) that "Slavs and Germans are not just ethno-linguistic but also indisputable ethno-genetic categories."

And I do not think there is any dispute that the Slavs and Germans are indisputable ethno-genetic categories.

Geographical representations of frequency gradients (https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Oliver-Stojkovic/publication/45283542/figure/fig4/AS:670361079279617@1536837944231/Geographical-representations-of-frequency-gradients-for-haplogroups-I2a-A-R1b-B-R1a.png) for haplogroups I2a (A), R1b (B), R1a (C) and E1b1b (D).

ResearchGate: Geographical representations of frequency gradients for haplogroups I2a (https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Geographical-representations-of-frequency-gradients-for-haplogroups-I2a-A-R1b-B-R1a_fig4_45283542).

The oldest people in Europe: https://archive.ph/woDq8

"... I2a and E1b1b (Fig 4a,d) both exhibit high densities within the Balkan states. These haplogroups are also observed at high levels throughout Eastern Europe but are found at considerably lower concentrations in western European regions. Haplogroup R1b (Fig. 4b), on the other hand, is found at high densities throughout Western Europe but dwindles steadily toward the east. R1a (Fig. 4c) reaches its frequency peak in western Russia (from the populations included in this report) and attains high levels in central Europe as ..."

https://archive.ph/g6Yhh#selection-717.0-721.513

See Also: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?358151-Y-SNP-SUPPLEMENT-TO%97NOT-A-REPLACEMENT-FOR%97Y-STR&p=7502277#post7502277

GeneaologyWise says that I2a1 is a typical European haplogroup and is present all over the continent with maximum frequencies recorded in Bosnia (particularly among Bosnian Croats), Sardinia, Croatia, Serbia (+30%), Montenegro, Romania, Moldova, Bulgaria, and Macedonia (20-30%). The percentages of I2a1a2b-L621 clade in Slovenia, Ukraine, and Russia available on the Internet should be taken with caution because they are definitely smaller: up to 13% in Slovenia, 16% in Ukraine, and about 7-8% in Russia. (According to the study of Andrej Zupan /2014/, and data from Ukrainian and Russian DNA projects /2021/)

Indo-European.eu (https://indo-european.eu/2019/05/dinaric-i2a-and-the-expansion-of-common-slavs-from-east-central-europe/): Dinaric I2a and the expansion of Common Slavs from East-Central Europe (https://archive.ph/kD3ao)

SpringerLink: Phylogeographic review of Y chromosome haplogroups in Europe (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00414-021-02644-6)

R1a vs I2a in Europe: https://archive.ph/l9Gwa

Europe and MENA by haplogroups (https://archive.ph/0PtXd): https://archive.ph/VaX1L/17bd25e5e799cdab4341980d99fa28f5560f4809.jpg

By analyzing the archaeological remains, it was determined that until some 6000 years before the new era, the I2a1 haplogroup was dominant in Western Europe, while I2a2 was dominant in the Balkans. The famous Iron Gates culture belonged to that culture.
https://archive.ph/woDq8#selection-4205.0-4205.253

ESTIMATED Y-DNA DISTRIBUTION 2000 YEARS AGO: https://archive.ph/5LPpq/583c68ebe1b6a784ae28c3b57740ac7cbfab4a24.jpg

Vinča culture: https://i.ibb.co/4NW7sNT/vinca11.jpg

> 10 000 BC: https://archive.ph/lwOsd/11f9089781e1a7f98cac997c1ff7ccd96811d9ce.png
10.000 BC - 7.000 BC: https://archive.ph/woDq8/8d51010d9e07faa2aa1874bc089956e7312fba10.jpg
5000 - 3000 BC: https://archive.ph/woDq8/c2edfe0fc907114f237b83054ca55d838b0a5272.jpg
3000 - 2000 BC: https://archive.ph/39tI7/5f50c6088da71e4deaff45a58cd2856f523476f7.jpg
2000 - 1000 BC: https://archive.ph/UBhl9/64ad255f5db1346f786299ce6e603fe2d4f0992a.jpg

Let us now look at the statistics of all descendants and haplogroups in Europe today and understand which nation is today the purest heir of the oldest Europeans, based on research from scientific papers.

Bosnians – 49% – I2 – Doğan et al. 2017
Swedes – 42% – I1 – Karlsson 2006
Danes – 39% – I1 – Nasidze 2004
Serbs – 38% – I2 – Mirabal et al. 2010
Croats – 37.7% – I2 – Mršić et al. 2014
Norwegians – 37% – I1 – Dupuy 2005

Thus, we come to the conclusion that Bosniaks are the most typical representatives of the old European I2 haplogroup, but in a significant percentage also both Serbs and Croats, while Swedes are the most typical representatives of the I1 haplogroup in Europe, but in a significant percentage also both Danes and Norwegians.
https://archive.ph/woDq8#selection-4279.0-4321.323

Frequency of I2a-Dinaric (Russia 28%, Ukraine 18%, Romania 12%): http://blog.vayda.pl/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Frequency-of-I2a-Dinaric-map.jpg, https://archive.ph/ycZRg/7a0055d6c7211feb29f7e61a6163f8120e303831.jpg

I2a-Dynaric population and frequency per country: https://archive.ph/WwHEF/e7ab3982a3d6deaddb79b67d218a883a89184028.jpg

Subclads of haplogroup I2-Dinaric: https://archive.ph/vff5U/789f37f7c6f38774d3c9b04210e7681444ba68df.jpg

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Almost half of the I2a-Dinaric population is in Russia and Ukraine. The dinaric countries (former Yugoslavia) are 15%. In Western Europe, 5% of the I2a-Dinaric population lives, mainly Italy and Germany, as well as Belgium and Spain. The latter is probably the remains of Vandals migration. The population in these countries ranges from 100 to 300 thousand men with hg Dinaric. It seems that the homeland of the haplogroup Din (Y3120) are the historical Black Sea steppes from Romania through Ukraine to the Volga. From these areas, genetic migration was to the west, to Poland, Slovakia and the Czech Republic. The second migration route would be from Romania to the Hungarian Plain. The third is from the north to Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia and Slovenia. All these YDNA migrations were no more than 2,500 years ago.
https://archive.ph/uN3dV#selection-249.0-253.436

You can also distinguish areas of similar distributions:

Northern – Poland, Belarus, Ukraine – advantage DinA2, DinA3, DinB
Eastern – Russia – advantage DinA3, DinB
Central – Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Austria, Slovenia, Romania
Southern 1 – Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro, Serbia – absolute domination of DinA3
Southern 2 – Greece, Bulgaria, Macedonia – a large share of DinA3 and DinC
https://archive.ph/uN3dV#selection-291.0-303.75

Słowiańska haplogrupa R1a i I2a-Dinaric/Slavic: http://blog.vayda.pl/en/i2a-dinaric-subclade-y3120-2/

I2a haplogroup: https://www.google.com/search?q=I2a+haplogroup&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwis7Y-Drt33AhXixaACHRXRAL0Q2-cCegQIABAA&oq=I2a+haplogroup&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzIECAAQQzIECAAQGDIECAAQGDoECCMQJzo ECAAQHlDCjgFYmpoBYP-cAWgBcAB4AIABsQGIAbQOkgEEMC4xMpgBAKABAaoBC2d3cy13a XotaW1nwAEB&sclient=img&ei=c8V-YuznN-KLg8UPlaKD6As&bih=757&biw=1600&rlz=1C1GCEA_enAU973AU973

I2a map: https://www.google.com/search?q=I2a+map&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwi7u-CFrN33AhW1_TgGHTsWC3QQ2-cCegQIABAA&oq=I2a+map&gs_lcp=CgNpbWcQAzIFCAAQgAQ6BAgAEEM6BggAEAUQHjoECAA QHjoECAAQGFC_Elib5Q1g3-gNaABwAHgAgAGrAYgB7AiSAQMwLjeYAQCgAQGqAQtnd3Mtd2l6 LWltZ8ABAQ&sclient=img&ei=YMN-YruLIrX74-EPu6ysoAc&bih=757&biw=1600&rlz=1C1GCEA_enAU973AU973

Distribution of Richard's I2a-L161 Family: https://archive.ph/LbyMO#selection-1205.0-1205.41

Present day Y-haplogroups in Romania: (https://aleximreh.wordpress.com/2016/01/09/7000-years-of-history/)
Before Farming Ro DNA – 33%: I1-4.5%, I2/I2a-26%, I2b-2.5%
Middle East Farmers DNA – 35%: J2/J1-15%, E1b1b-15%, G-5%
Old Europe DNA – 68%: I1/2-33% + J1/E1/G – 35%
Kurgan, Celt & Slav DNA – 29.5%: R1a-17.5% + R1b-12%
Kurgan/Celt DNA 17.5%: R1a-17.5%
Kurgan/Slav DNA – 12%: R1b-12%

7000 years of history. Ro DNA:68% Old Europe & 29.5% Kurgan (https://archive.ph/SZZ3e#selection-423.0-423.59)
12.000BC-6000BC – I1/2 before farmers
6000BC-5000BC – J1/2,E1b1,G bring farming from Middle Asia
6500-2000 BC Burned house horizon
5508 BC Anno Mundi – the biblical creation of the world
5700-4500 BC Vinca Culture
5500-2750 BC Cucuteni Culture
4400-4300BC First Kurgan Wave into East-Central Europe
3500BC Second Kurgan Wave-R1b Transformation of Central Europe
3000BC Third Kurgan Wave-Proto ItaloCelts in Transylvania/Pannonia
2000-1500BC R1a Greco-Macedonians invade ”Greece” from North
1200-1000BC R1b Hallstatt, Dorians & Sea People – First Dark Age
1000BC-82BC Iron Age Thracia/Daco-Getia
460 BC-46 AD The Odrysian Kingdom
82BC-106AD Burebista to Decebal –Magna Dacia & Dacian Kingdoms
106-271 Romans defeat Decebal and have 23 wars with Free Dacians
271-376 Gutthiuda/Gothia – after the final roman retreat
376-454 The Hun Empire – push south the Goth who destroy Rome
Start of Second Dark Age – fall of economies based on slavery caused by free people, city civilisations replaced by village economy
454-567 Gepid Kingdom – destroyed by avars in 576 Avars & Lombards
567-670 Avar Periods – Early 567-670, Middle 670-720 & Late 720-804
681-1018 First Bulgar Empire – 893-927 Simeon the Great
940-1046 Voievodatul lui Iuliu – primul episcopat Ortodox la Alba-Iulia
1185-1396 Second Vlah-Bulgarian State
1330 Wallachia – Basarab I defeats Charles I of Hungary at Posada
1359 Moldavia – from Transylvania to the Dniester River

I would in all honesty point out that the presence of R1 in Romanian Mesolithic individuals and in older European human remains suggests that this haplotype was already found at high frequencies in certain regions of Europe well before ∼4.5 kya or the Late Neolithic and Bronze Age.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?203273-Post-your-MDLP-K11-Modern-(new-calc)&p=7500980#post7500980

VikLevaPatel

05-30-2022, 12:28 AM

Heterogeneous Hunter-Gatherer and Steppe-Related Ancestries (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982220318352) in Late Neolithic and Bell Beaker Genomes from Present-Day France

"Hunter-Gatherer Resurgence" of 4400 BC in France (https://archive.ph/3BKuX#selection-617.0-617.115) featured WHG men with I2a Y-haplogroup conquering the EEF states.

WHGs ruled western Europe & Balkans from 12,000 to 6,000 BC (https://archive.ph/N00IT#selection-633.0-633.166). The WHGs were possibly heterogeneous, expanding from different refugia after the end of the last ice age.

https://archive.ph/A5DbG/bd0c31a0d25b36114a83a31351f1b57b561e33ea.jpg

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Late Neolithic populations were genetically diverse and included individuals with dark skin, hair, and eyes.

The apparently high frequency of I2a1 may reflect a general dominance of this haplogroup across Late Neolithic France.

No individuals from the same archaeological site carried identical mitochondrial haplotypes, indicating no maternal relatedness (Data S1E). In contrast, all males were assigned to the Y chromosome haplogroup I2a1 (https://archive.ph/u1FRl#selection-2021.0-2045.4), except one individual at Mont-Aimé belonging to haplogroup H2a1 and one ∼4,400-year-old R1b1a1b1a1a2a1 individual from Grotte Basse de la Vigne Perdue (Data S1F).

Close or incompletely covered but matching haplotypes (https://archive.ph/u1FRl#selection-2045.4-2045.393) were previously reported in contemporary Bell Beaker individuals (R1b1a1b for sample CBV95, La-Bouche-à-Vesle) and Bronze Age individuals from both northern (R1b1a1b1a1a2 for sample RIX2, Rixheim-Zac du Petit-Prince; R1b1a1b1a1a2a5 for sample OBE3626-1, Obernai PAEI) and southern France (R1b1a1b1a1a for sample PIR3116B Rec de Ligno).

This may reflect admixture from incoming steppe herders that, around that same time, have almost completely replaced other Y chromosome haplotypes in Iberian populations. Haplogroup I2a1 was previously found among various hunter-gatherer groups from Europe (https://archive.ph/u1FRl#selection-2051.1-2121.2).

According to this map, the highest percentage of WHG heritage that a modern European can have is 50%. The Western Hunter-Gatherer was a dark-skinned person with green eyes and dark hair that was also lactose intolerant.
https://www.quora.com/What-does-a-modern-European-with-a-very-high-percentage-of-WHG-ancestry-look-like/answers/212355335

Haplogroup R is unevenly distributed in Polish population (https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fgene.2020.567309/full) with the central part of the country marked by the highest frequencies. When hg R was divided into subhaplogroups, one can see that R1a is distributed mostly in the center part of Poland with a few regions in the west and east of the country. R1b is most widely distributed on the territory of Poland (https://archive.ph/6ubQ1#selection-1843.89-1851.2), reaching farther east and west. Interpolation map of haplogroup I shows that it is more evenly represented in the Polish population (https://archive.ph/6ubQ1#selection-1883.0-1887.3) but some trends are indicated. The highest frequencies are observed in western Poland and in some regions of eastern Poland mostly in Podlaskie and Lublin voivodeships but reaching also eastern parts of Mazovia, western parts of Warmian–Mazurian, and almost all Subcarpathian. Haplogroup N is observed mostly in all Podlaskie voivodeship. In the case of haplogroups E and J (https://archive.ph/6ubQ1#selection-1887.65-1891.2), the differences are not so highlighted, and a much greater diversity of frequencies is observed.

VikLevaPatel

06-06-2022, 02:02 AM

According to this map, the highest percentage of WHG heritage that a modern European can have is 50%. The Western Hunter-Gatherer was a dark-skinned person with green eyes and dark hair that was also lactose intolerant.
https://www.quora.com/What-does-a-modern-European-with-a-very-high-percentage-of-WHG-ancestry-look-like/answers/212355335

This certainly seems correct as far as I can now tell.

Scores may change, of course, and, most likely, will decrease, especially once we have the results of various admixes or calculators that include the "WHG" category and compare them against each other.

Genoplot Kurdish Iranian Neolithic K6: https://i.ibb.co/wczsyY0/west.png, https://i.ibb.co/BCRqkpB/nat.png

( British_English )| WHG, Natufian, Iran...

WHG

British English 47.2
Ukrainian 46.88
German 41.5

VikLevaPatel

07-01-2022, 11:29 PM

Population interactions between Anatolia, mainland Europe, and the Eurasian steppe

Genome-wide patterns of selection in 230 ancient Eurasians (https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/reich.hms.harvard.edu/files/inline-files/2015_Nature_Mathieson_selection_concatenated_SupM. pdf)

The most recent synthesis of European prehistory 8,000-3,000 years ago presents the following reconstruction.

Before the advent of farming, Europe was populated by at least three different groups of hunter-gatherers.

Western European hunter-gatherers (WHG) were widely distributed in Luxembourg, Iberia, and Hungary. Eastern European hunter-gatherers (EHG) lived in far eastern Europe (Russia), including both the steppe (Samara region) and Karelia. Scandinavian hunter-gatherers (SHG) from Sweden can be modeled as a mixture of WHG and EHG and persisted in Scandinavia until after ~5,000 years ago.

EHG are distinguished by a greater affinity than either WHG or SHG to Native Americans and to the ~24,000-year old Mal’ta (MA1) individual from Siberia, making them a proximate source for the “Ancient North Eurasian” ancestry present in subsequent Europeans.

doi:10.1038/nature16152

All European hunter-gatherers were outside the range of genetic variation in present-day Europeans, but are genetically closest to present-day northern Europeans.

The Samara hunter gatherer R1b sample which they found, which is ancestral to and therefore older than Yamnaya had blond hair and blue eyes.

Also fair features, such as light eyes, are the only pan-Indo-European feature, found in nearly every Indo-European group if even at low levels among non-Euros (such as among high caste Indians, Kurds, etc.)

Those European groups with the most "steppe" DNA, such as Irish, Scots, Norwegians, Lithuanians, and certain Russians, are also all fair groups.

https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/348605744/#348612822

See Also: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?355998-Close-Affinity-Between-Native-Americans-And-Modern-day-Western-Eurasians&p=7533603&viewfull=1#post7533603

billErobreren

07-02-2022, 12:13 AM

Kind of had the idea they had more to do with Illyrians, actually older than their respective ethno-linguistic groups, to be honest

VikLevaPatel

08-27-2022, 02:17 AM

The current debate really boils down to whether Europeans are genetically of Paleolithic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rspqObP2yg&ab_channel=DanDavisHistory) or Neolithic origin. But genetic analyses can be tricky, and various genetic studies and models and analyses have at different times given conflicting results and conflicting versions of the truth. It is true that the hunter‐gatherer groups of Northern Europe were characterized by low genetic diversity, and it's also equally if not more true that no significant evidence of gene flow from farmers has been observed in Northern European or Nordic Hunter-Gatherers (https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/A_Companion_to_Anthropological_Genetics/_LKMDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=neolithic+farmer+is+major+component+in+european&pg=PT173&printsec=frontcover). Even though the Scandinavian farmers show evidence of assimilation of hunter‐gatherer genetic components on the background of general affinities to Southern European populations, as noted by O'Rourke (2019) (https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Companion_to_Anthropological_Genetics/94SFDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=O%27Rourke+hunter%E2%80%90gatherer+genetic+comp onents+on+the+genetic+affinities&pg=PA162&printsec=frontcover). Kevin MacDonald (https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.696.5331&rep=rep1&type=pdf), for one, sees that there is an "ethnic basis" for Western Individualism (https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.696.5331&rep=rep1&type=pdf), and goes on to state that "European populations who presumably evolved in the cold and cloudy environments of the North for 40,000 years developed not just blond hair and blue eyes but temperaments and life style preferences to go with it." Not only that, but "these populations were hunters and gatherers, not agriculturalists." Of course, there is a significant counter-argument here. And not to mention that there are other significant factors at play. On the contrary, as observed by Dennis H. O'Rourke (2019) (https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/A_Companion_to_Anthropological_Genetics/_LKMDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=O%27Rourke+closely+related+to+extant+Basque+and +Sardinian+populations,+with+the+other+..&pg=PT174&printsec=frontcover), the spread of the Neolithic in Europe and the interactions between the first farmers and the hunter‐gatherer groups have turned out to be more complex and complicated and challenging than initially thought. A major part of the genetic diversity in Europe (https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Companion_to_Anthropological_Genetics/94SFDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=the+spread+of+neolithic+farmers+and+interaction s+O%27Rourke+%C2%B7&pg=PA162&printsec=frontcover), however, appears to derive from more recent gene flow during and after the Neolithic. And I have to agree with O'Rourke's view and assessment that the agreeing autosomal DNA evidence bears witness to some but not major levels of continuity between the Mesolithic hunter‐gatherers and the present‐day populations of Europe. There is some data, of course, that lends weight to the arguments for a Paleolithic origin of Europeans, but it is important to remember that the Neolithic dispersals had different intensities and impact upon different populations of Europe. The data indeed suggest that the Neolithic expansion into Europe occurred in multiple steps or phases and independently of each other. This stands in contrast to the classical wave-of-advance model (https://www.google.com/books/edition/Europe_s_First_Farmers/d0mvxuJBBL0C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=the+wave-of-advance+models&pg=PA306&printsec=frontcover) and to the view that this wave of first farmers established its genetic profile and its demographic supremacy ever since. Moreover, as noted by Naruya Saitou (2021) (https://www.google.com/books/edition/Evolution_of_the_Human_Genome_II/W3wwEAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=the+neolithic+dispersals+had+different+intensit ies&pg=PA173&printsec=frontcover), there is a dual model of Neolithic spread: acculturation in Central Europe and demic diffusion in southern Europe. Moreover, results reveal a clear and consistent signal of admixture in Northern Europeans involving at least two distinct sources, one of which has been shown to be closely related to extant Basque and Sardinian populations, with the other, and this is the most interesting part, showing highest affinities to present‐day populations of Northeast Asia and the Americas. Two main genome components become apparent, corresponding to the contributions of the first, Paleolithic Europeans, and the early Neolithic farmers, the second component decreasing from east to west, as predicted by a model or an estimator in which the alleles of Neolithic immigrants from the Near East got diluted during an expansion towards the Northwest. This map (https://i.ibb.co/2qkCP70/f589204780d22702066823f7b0348374.jpg) from the K35 calculator (https://www.geneplaza.com/app-store/69/preview) available at GenePlaza (https://www.geneplaza.com/app-store) comes in especially handy in this regard. The map bears witness, moreover, to this relationship. Again, as noted by Dennis H. O'Rourke (https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Companion_to_Anthropological_Genetics/_LKMDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=neolithic+farmer+is+major+component+in+european&pg=PT173&printsec=frontcover):

The genetic landscape of Europe before the onset of the Neolithic was highly homogeneous. While the Neolithic was a period of at least four major genetic changes, and the genetic profile of the earliest farmers became substantially altered in the Middle Neolithic.

Furthermore, as pointed out by Stoneking (2016) (https://www.google.com/books/edition/An_Introduction_to_Molecular_Anthropolog/KUJJDQAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Stoneking+(2016),+range+from+less+than+15%25+to +more+than+70%25&pg=PA328&printsec=frontcover), estimates of the genetic contribution of Neolithic farmers to the present-day European population range from less than 15% to more than 70%. But even more so, you could potentially say that the major component of the European gene pool might have derived from Near Eastern Neolithic farmers rather than indigenous Mesolithic foragers, as the authors, Lolita Nikolova, ‎Marco Merlini, ‎and Alexandra Comsa, note in their book "Western-Pontic Culture Ambience and Pattern." (https://www.google.com/books/edition/Western_Pontic_Culture_Ambience_and_Patt/stwtDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=lolita+European+gene+pool+might+have+derived+fr om+Near+Eastern+Neolithic+farmers+rather+than+indi genou&pg=PA9&printsec=frontcover)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTyojqbW6lM&ab_channel=HistoryTime

Varda

08-27-2022, 08:41 AM

https://i.imgur.com/q76zlRM.jpeg

GreatRace (Mahājāti)

12-05-2022, 05:10 AM

Here is a map from the PhyloGeographer to help and showing the migratory path of the I haplogroup, which has been dated to 25500 BC, and of these early ancestors.

"My Ancestors' Path"

I 25500 BC

https://i.ibb.co/6BsPkXz/i.png, https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/?hg=Adam&clade=I

Is there a divine hand in all history? :icon_ask::shrug::noidea::fponder::confused3::conf used3::confused3::fwhat:

I can't help but believe that there is. I may have to do more research into this issue.

The Mapmygenome report I received, in November 2022, states that around 70,000 years ago, some men from CT haplogroup had migrated out of Africa by crossing the Red sea and expanded throughout the world. Hence CT is also been referred as Eurasian Adam or Out of Africa Adam. But I would say that they expanded first into the Indian subcontinent and then the world. In fact, the PhyloGeographer maps show, and it is now generally agreed, that all of them first passed through Gujarat. And you could equally well say that the Indian continent was passed through first. It is most noteworthy that all of them passed through haplogroup CT, but that not all of them passed through haplogroup CF. In other words, all of them passed through haplogroup CF (https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/?hg=Adam&clade=CF) as well, with the exception of haplogroup DE (https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/?hg=Adam&clade=DE). Here are a couple of examples:

https://i.ibb.co/qgLWzV8/cfcf.png, https://ibb.co/CJLj3XQ, https://i.ibb.co/z4YBG3z/cff.png

These data also confirm what was described in my CRI Genetics (https://www.crigenetics.com/) report. As stated in the report, the Gujarat and Rajasthan were the first regions in Asia that were settled by humans migrating out of the Middle East, and for this reason, and for this reason, Gujarati people tend to have more European and Middle Eastern ancestry than other Indian groups. In fact, it was the first non-African region or the first region in the world settled by humans migrating out-of-Africa (OoA), as this map (https://i.ibb.co/ZBFWmJr/adam.png) shows. The Mapmygenome report points out "haplogroup C (M130), believed to be associated with first wave of human migration through Indian Coast, had originated 60,000 years ago (shortly after Out Of Africa migration), and expanded through South Asia via Southern Coastal route." It goes on to point out that "haplogroup C1b1a1 - M356 (earlier known as C5) is found in India (Gujarat, Madhya Pradesh) and neighbouring Pakistan, and is believed to have originated in India during the eastward migration to East Asia, at around 30,000 years ago." Once again, this map (https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/?hg=Adam&clade=C) strongly confirms that haplogroup C originated in the northern and northeastern parts of the Indian continent in about 46800 BC, and in addition this map (https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/?hg=Adam&clade=CT) confirms yet again that haplogroup CT originated in the central part of the Indian continent in about 66500 BC. By now it should go without saying that their traditional migratory routes passed through the Mahagujarat region or area. For it was the sector, district or area in which the first landing was made. For I venture to think that it is correct to say that India is not Gujarat, and vice versa. Gujarat is not only a slightly different South Asian region that speaks yet another language based on Sanskrit and eats yet another version of dal. It is absolutely unique, as Aakar Patel (https://archive.ph/2MwNp#selection-1295.0-1295.172) affirmatively and enthusiastically claims. And here's a screenshot of the CRI Genetics report:

https://i.ibb.co/34xSZ4R/gujju.png

Another noteworthy point is that the haplogroups CT, CF, and DE originated in the Indian subcontinent, whereas the haplogroups D and E did not, in contrast to the haplogroups C and F, both of which did originate from the Indian continent. Also, this needs to be mentioned that the three basal Eurasian branches, as pointed out by Kivisild (2017) (https://archive.ph/gw1tH), are D, C and F. Haplogroup D, in other words, is a basal Eurasian branch, but haplogroup E is not. See the following examples:

CT: 66500 BC (https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/?hg=Adam&clade=CT)
CF: 63900 BC (https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/?hg=Adam&clade=CF)
DE: 63200 BC (https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/?hg=Adam&clade=DE)
C: 46800 BC (https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/?hg=Adam&clade=C)
F: 46800 BC (https://phylogeographer.com/mygrations/?hg=Adam&clade=F)

It also remains an open question of whether or not there is a divine hand behind it all or at least behind every single historical event. I'll try to interpret and make more sense of it. In these threads:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?363927-GENETIC-REPORTS-AND-ANALYSES-AND-LOVING-LINEAGE-AND-HERITAGE-WITH-ALL-YOUR-HEART-AND-SOUL&p=7611856#post7611856

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?367970-KASTENKAMPF-(CASTE-STRUGGLE)-AND-THE-IDEA-OF-DOMINATION&p=7612499#post7612499

Katarzyna

09-09-2023, 06:43 PM

My male relatives are I2a1. If I was born a male I would have it as well. And yeah, we are Slavs