Polish Gedmatch Results [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

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vbnetkhio

07-10-2021, 09:17 AM

A thread to share Polish Gedmatch results.
Please post results with at least 3/4 grandparents from one region, unless it's some very rare or interesting result.

here is what I collected so far:

results:

GreaterPoland1,28.48,45.76,12.79,4.64,5.75,0,1.01, 0,0,0.2,1.14,0,0.24
GreaterPoland2,28.48,45.76,12.79,4.64,5.75,0,1.01, 0,0,0.2,1.14,0,0.24
GreaterPoland3,30.22,43.8,10.79,3.43,6.32,0.7,1.7, 0,0.78,1.02,0,1.24,0
GreaterPoland4,31.38,45.21,7.03,4.11,6.49,2.71,0,0 .52,0.95,0,0.78,0.83,0
GreaterPoland5,31.95,42.05,9.49,7.66,6.9,0,1.23,0, 0,0.43,0,0.29,0
GreaterPoland6,32,44.64,10.61,2.65,5.92,1.75,1,0,0 ,0.91,0.49,0,0
GreaterPoland7,32.25,42.21,8.25,7.88,5.46,1.03,1.0 5,0,0.18,1.14,0,0.51,0
GreaterPoland8,32.25,42.35,10.21,7.45,4.14,1.41,1. 48,0,0,0.53,0,0,0.18
GreaterPoland9,33.03,40.21,9.63,5.09,8.98,0,0.69,0 .43,0,0.35,0.45,1.15,0
GreaterPoland10,33.17,46.79,11.29,4.2,1.43,0,0.23, 0,0.48,1.11,1.31,0,0
Kujawy1,28.72,49.16,11.58,3.92,2.59,0,1.41,0.2,1.3 1,0.32,0,0.78,0
Kujawy2,30.71,45.75,9.58,5.87,1.88,2,1.69,0,0,1.64 ,0,0.87,0
Kujawy3,34.42,43.12,7.39,4.88,6.38,1.95,0,0.61,0.7 8,0.47,0,0,0
Kujawy4,33.45,43.62,11.26,3.95,2.47,1.91,0.97,0,1. 06,1.3,0,0,0
LesserPoland1,31.98,41.01,13.44,3.35,7.57,0,0.19,0 ,0.24,1.62,0.29,0.14,0.15
LesserPoland2,34.16,44.42,9.1,4.78,4.66,0.13,0,0.1 4,0.51,0.71,0.66,0.33,0.38
LesserPoland3,31.43,42.56,11.67,7.01,5.1,0.43,0,0. 09,0.19,0.02,0.92,0.48,0.09
Lodz,30.81,38.84,14.22,4.31,7.33,1.77,0,0.18,0,1.2 1,0.98,0,0.37
LowerSilesia,28.53,43.29,12.88,8.2,3.34,0.07,1.92, 0,0.59,0,1.18,0,0
Lublin,28.31,42.13,11.76,5.79,7.72,0.76,0.53,0,2.7 4,0,0.27,0,0
Mazovia1,24.29,50.25,7.62,7.89,4.36,2.42,0.82,0.08 ,0.32,1.51,0.38,0,0
Mazovia2,25.69,48.72,8.39,6.08,7.92,0,0.81,0,0.27, 1.04,1.02,0,0.07
Mazovia3,25.71,51.74,11.66,3.77,3.35,0.19,1.27,0.4 8,0.6,0.93,0,0,0.3
Mazovia4,26.07,48.97,8.4,6.41,5.69,1.08,0,0,0.99,1 .05,0.4,0.94,0
Mazovia5,27.05,48.67,8.23,5.87,7.14,0,0.78,0,0.9,0 .3,1.06,0,0
Mazovia6,27.07,48.34,13.02,2.97,4.36,0,0,0.52,1.27 ,0.52,0.39,0,1.55
Mazovia7,28.15,46.77,10.42,4.72,5.71,0,1.68,0,0.46 ,1.03,0.96,0.1,0
Mazovia8,30.09,39.9,11.03,4.61,9.69,0.6,2.03,0,0.0 9,0.18,0.86,0.71,0.17
Mazovia9,30.65,44.46,11.48,6.17,2.8,0.95,2.76,0.29 ,0.44,0,0,0,0
Mazovia10,31.97,41.84,12.71,8.4,2.06,0.84,1.07,0.4 3,0,0.62,0.05,0,0
Mazovia11,32.72,43.44,9.2,5.09,4.98,0.44,1.53,0,1. 78,0.06,0.2,0.26,0.32
Mazovia12,29.06,44.16,13.05,5.8,4.93,0,0.8,0,0.89, 0,1.15,0,0.15
Podlaskie1,27.17,47.2,6.85,7.59,8.78,0,0.87,0,0.64 ,0.9,0,0,0
Podlaskie2,30.54,48.43,7.54,1.9,5.89,1.28,2.22,0,1 .56,0,0.66,0,0
Podlaskie3,30.65,45.25,7.42,5.41,5.24,3.15,0.49,0, 1.45,0,0.93,0,0
Podlaskie4,31.1,45.84,7.37,2.78,7.41,2.17,1.75,0,0 .59,0.48,0.5,0,0
Silesia1,31.79,42.18,11.16,5.1,6.16,0.09,1.56,0,1. 55,0.13,0,0.29,0
Silesia2,27.87,42.37,10.79,7.58,7.09,1.34,0,1.16,0 .4,1.04,0.38,0,0
Silesia3,28.8,44.29,13.79,3.77,5.7,0.07,1.51,0,0,1 .61,0.12,0.34,0
Subcarpathia,26.46,43.05,9.62,5.89,9.8,2.21,0.79,0 ,0.75,0.69,0.1,0.63,0

averages:

Polish_Mazovia,28.21,46.44,10.43,5.65,5.25,0.54,1. 13,0.15,0.67,0.60,0.54,0.17,0.21
Polish_Podlaskie,29.87,46.68,7.30,4.42,6.83,1.65,1 .33,0.00,1.06,0.35,0.52,0.00,0.00
Polish_GreaterPoland,31.32,43.88,10.29,5.18,5.71,0 .76,0.94,0.10,0.24,0.59,0.53,0.40,0.07
Polish_LowerSilesia,28.53,43.29,12.88,8.20,3.34,0. 07,1.92,0.00,0.59,0.00,1.18,0.00,0.00
Polish_Kujawy,31.83,45.41,9.95,4.66,3.33,1.47,1.02 ,0.20,0.79,0.93,0.00,0.41,0.00
Polish_Silesia,29.49,42.95,11.91,5.48,6.32,0.50,1. 02,0.39,0.65,0.93,0.17,0.21,0.00
Polish_LesserPoland,32.52,42.66,11.40,5.05,5.78,0. 19,0.06,0.08,0.31,0.78,0.62,0.32,0.21
Polish_Lodz,30.81,38.84,14.22,4.31,7.33,1.77,0.00, 0.18,0.00,1.21,0.98,0.00,0.37
Polish_Lublin,28.31,42.13,11.76,5.79,7.72,0.76,0.5 3,0.00,2.74,0.00,0.27,0.00,0.00
Polish_Subcarpathia,26.46,43.05,9.62,5.89,9.80,2.2 1,0.79,0.00,0.75,0.69,0.10,0.63,0.00

vbnetkhio

07-10-2021, 09:29 AM

PCA:

https://i.imgur.com/4UlUX7Z.png

Roy

07-10-2021, 06:31 PM

It seems like samples from Mazovia have like ~4% more of Baltic component on average. 46-50 vs 40-45 for Greater Poland.

vbnetkhio

07-10-2021, 07:48 PM

It seems like samples from Mazovia have like ~4% more of Baltic component on average. 46-50 vs 40-45 for Greater Poland.

yeah. On the PCA Greater Poland looks like a more Germanic shifted Mazovia.

btw, should I add your result to any of the averages?

michal3141

07-10-2021, 08:00 PM

Me (Lesser Poland up to greatgrandparents, still in some models I have slight Finnish and Gypsy admix):

michal3141_k13,26.44,44.92,10.38,5.90,5.19,1.62,1. 67,0.00,2.24,1.06,0.39,0.19,0.00

3.76002660 Mazovia7
4.64888159 Mazovia12
4.69573210 GreaterPoland1
4.69573210 GreaterPoland2
4.77315409 Silesia2
4.80225988 Lublin
5.11620953 Mazovia4
5.22721723 GreaterPoland3
5.38133812 LowerSilesia
5.39298619 Subcarpathia
5.39770322 Mazovia5
5.49865438 Silesia3
5.58601826 Mazovia9
5.71365907 Podlaskie3
5.84218281 Mazovia2
6.05244579 Kujawy2
6.13934036 Mazovia6
6.31989715 Kujawy1
6.32254696 Podlaskie1
6.49426670 Silesia1
6.57603984 LesserPoland3
6.81824024 Mazovia11
6.90596119 GreaterPoland6
6.94270120 GreaterPoland4
7.03521144 GreaterPoland8
7.04988652 Podlaskie4
7.11280535 Mazovia1
7.33521642 GreaterPoland5
7.40725320 GreaterPoland7
7.46985944 Podlaskie2
7.87567140 Mazovia3
8.06335538 Kujawy4
8.24297276 Mazovia8
8.24980606 Mazovia10
8.45002959 LesserPoland2
8.67906101 GreaterPoland10
8.75634627 LesserPoland1
9.17904134 Kujawy3
9.29094183 Lodz
9.56093615 GreaterPoland9

vbnetkhio

07-10-2021, 08:11 PM

Peterski

07-14-2021, 04:32 PM

Peterski

07-14-2021, 04:39 PM

This entire area is the so called "Staropolska" (it is the Northern part of historical Małopolska - Northern Lesser Poland):

All Polish kits with 100% ancestry from this entire area can be merged into one average. The borders of this region are:

Vistula River in the east & south, Pilica River in the north, Warta River, Silesia & Szreniawa River in the west & southwest:

https://www.geografia24.eu/index.php?strona=120_mapa_polski#galeria_rzeki-1 - useful map of Polish rivers (with names)

https://i.imgur.com/1nsbfwk.jpg

^^^
Former administrative divisions followed the borders of this historical region:

1. Pre-WW2 Kielce Voivodeship:

http://www.radom.pl/page/file.php?id=1013

https://i.imgur.com/R2rXNTf.jpg

2. 1800s Radom Governorate:

http://www.radom.pl/page/file.php?id=1011

https://i.imgur.com/zhDgBK7.jpg

Smitty

07-14-2021, 04:44 PM

Are there any kits from Pomerania or West Pomerania?

Peterski

07-14-2021, 04:47 PM

Are there any kits from Pomerania or West Pomerania?

Ethnic German or Polish/Kashubian ones?

Smitty

07-14-2021, 04:48 PM

Ethnic German or Polish/Kashubian ones?

I was meaning Polish ones, but honestly I'd be interested in both.

Peterski

07-14-2021, 04:53 PM

I was meaning Polish ones, but honestly I'd be interested in both.

Are you on Anthrogenica? There is user Waldemar there, his wife is 100% Pomeranian Polish from Kociewie.

[and his wife is on GEDmatch but I'm probably not allowed to share her kit number; she also did Global25]

Kociewie is an ethnographic region bordering Kashubia, but they speak Wielkopolski Dialect, not Kashubian:

https://i.imgur.com/wuJZlME.png

I'll send you one of my family's kits who has Pomeranian matches (including a German from Balfanz / Białowąs):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bia%C5%82ow%C4%85s

^^^
My cousin & grandpa's brother have a match with a Pomeranian German from there.

But I think that this German has already deleted her kit from GEDmatch, I'm afraid.

Peterski

07-14-2021, 05:07 PM

Are there any kits from Pomerania or West Pomerania?

This woman & her son had a match with my grandpa's brother on GEDmatch and contacted me, but I think they are no longer on GEDmatch:

But they have their website about Balfanz / Białowąs area, so I think I can publish it here - http://gross-kroessin-pommern.info/allgemein/ (http://gross-kroessin-pommern.info/author/herzoginanna/page/3/)

=====

Balfanz / Białowąs is right next to the Land of Drahim (which was part of the Polish Crown) - I think the match can be related to that area:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?295518-Land-of-Drahim-in-West-Pomerania

https://i.imgur.com/m0QtXXi.png

vbnetkhio

07-14-2021, 05:10 PM

I sent you some kits from Radom area. Radom is now in Mazovian Voivodeship but historically it is part of Northern Lesser Poland.

And in the Inter-War Period Radom was part of the same voivodeship as Kielce (this region is sometimes known as "Staropolska").

I chose Voivodeships because it's easy to check in which Voivodieship a town or village is (wikipedia, google maps)
they also divide Poland into more or less equal parts, so they should show any autosomal clines well.

Historical regions would be better, but I would have to discard some kits then, and maybe also gain some new ones.
My criteria for these averages were at least 3 grandparents from one Voivodeship, and the 4th also ethnic Polish, and from somewhere nearby.

you can check the kits in the folder and see if they can be sorted well into historical regions.

The reason why they are not within the same voivodeship as Kielce today, is because people from these cities don't like each other.

They would be unable to achieve a compromise as to where the capital of the voivodeship should be located (in Radom or in Kielce).

=====

There is a similar problem in Kujawsko-Pomorskie - Toruń vs. Bydgoszcz are competing for the title of the leading city in that region.

lol.

Peterski

07-14-2021, 05:17 PM

I chose Voivodeships because it's easy to check in which Voivodieship a town or village is (wikipedia, google maps)
they also divide Poland into more or less equal parts, so they should show any autosomal clines well.

OK but you have to make some exceptions because voivodeships do not always make sense.

Just like in Serbia you did not make regional averages only based on administrative divisions.

I can tell you what kind of exceptions have to be made apart from this one.

Apart from the one I already mentioned, another is in Silesian Voivodeship.

Not all of Silesian Voivodeship is composed of Silesian lands - some parts are Lesser Poland.

Historical regions would be better, but I would have to discard some kits then, and maybe also gain some new ones.

(...)

you can check (...)

OK, I'll check. Why do you think these kits would need to be discarded, not just re-assigned?

Peterski

07-14-2021, 05:20 PM

Example:

If someone has 2 grandparents from Opolskie and 2 from Silesian - from the historically Silesian part of it - then it is a 100% Upper Silesia kit.

If you followed voivodeship borders you would discard this kit as not meeting the requirement of having 3 grandparents from one voivodeship.

=====

Check my thread about Silesian Voivodeship: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?245163-Silesian-Voivodeship-pre-WW2-and-today

vbnetkhio

07-14-2021, 05:24 PM

OK, I'll check. Why do you think these kits would need to be discarded, not just re-assigned?

depends on the kit in question. maybe somebody has 4 grandparents born in the same Voivodeship, but 4 different historical regions? :noidea:

Peterski

07-14-2021, 05:34 PM

maybe somebody has 4 grandparents born in the same Voivodeship, but 4 different historical regions?

LOL, that is rather impossible. :) Voivodeship borders most of the time do follow historical regions.

Some voivodeships include several small historical regions within them (e.g. Kujawsko-Pomorskie).

=====

BTW here is my division of Poland into regions based on year 1900 administrative borders (counties):

Map 1900 county borders, modern names:
[open the spoiler to see the full size map]

https://i.imgur.com/xXoMkxb.png

https://i.imgur.com/xXoMkxb.png

And my division of counties into regions:
[only within present-day Polish borders]

Greater Poland - population ca. year 1900 - 2224893 - of which ethnic Polish: ca. 71%

includes the following counties:

Wieluń
Kalisz
Turek
Koło
Konin
Słupca
Kępno
Ostrzeszów
Ostrów Wielkopolski
Odolanów
Pleszew
Krotoszyn
Rawicz
Gostyń
Koźmin Wielkopolski
Jarocin
Leszno
Wschowa
Babimost
Śmigiel
Kościan
Śrem
Środa Wielkopolska
Września
Międzyrzecz
Nowy Tomyśl
Grodzisk Wielkopolski
Poznań Zachód
Poznań City
Poznań Wschód
Oborniki
Szamotuły
Międzychód
Skwierzyna
Witkowo
Mogilno
Gniezno
Żnin
Wągrowiec
Chodzież
Czarnków
Wieleń
Wałcz

Northern Poland - population ca. year 1900 - 1696469 - of which ethnic Polish: ca. 55%

[ this region could be sub-divided into smaller ones ]

includes the following counties:

Włocławek
Nieszawa
Rypin
Lipno
Strzelno
Inowrocław
Szubin
Bydgoszcz City
Bydgoszcz
Wyrzysk
Złotów
Tuchola
Świecie
Chełmno
Toruń City
Toruń
Wąbrzeźno
Brodnica
Lubawa
Grudziądz City
Grudziądz
Starogard Gdański
Kwidzyn (west)
Kwidzyn (east)
Sztum
Tczew City
Tczew
Malbork
Elbląg (western half)
Gdańsk City
Gdańskie Niziny

Kashubia - population ca. year 1900 - 538832 - of which ethnic Kashubian/Polish: ca. 54%

includes the following counties:

Puck
Wejherowo
Kartuzy
Kościerzyna
Chojnice
Człuchów
Lębork
Bytów
Słupsk
Gdańskie Wyżyny

Upper Silesia - population ca. year 1900 - 2105578 - of which ethnic Polish/Silesian: ca. 66%

includes the following counties:

Syców
Namysłów
Lubliniec
Tarnowskie Góry
Bytom
Katowice
Katowice City
Chorzów
Zabrze
Pszczyna
Rybnik
Racibórz
Toszek-Gliwice
Strzelce Opolskie
Racibórz City
Bytom City
Gliwice City
Koźle
Olesno
Opole
Opole City
Kluczbork
Prudnik
Niemodlin
Głubczyce
Bielsko City
Bielsko
Cieszyn
Frysztat

Central Poland - population ca. year 1900 - 1321039 - of which ethnic Polish: ca. 72%

includes the following counties:

Kutno
Łowicz
Łęczyca
Brzeziny
Łódź City
Łódź
Sieradz
Łask
Piotrków Trybunalski
Radomsko

Lesser Poland North - population ca. year 1900 - 1980129 - of which ethnic Polish: ca. 86%

includes the following counties:

Kozienice
Radom
Opoczno
Końskie
Iłża
Opatów
Sandomierz
Kielce
Włoszczowa
Jędrzejów
Stopnica
Pińczów
Miechów
Olkusz
Częstochowa
Będzin

Lesser Poland South - population ca. year 1900 - 1397314 - of which ethnic Polish: ca. 89%

includes the following counties:

Chrzanów
Biała
Wadowice
Kraków City
Kraków
Skawina/Podgórze
Wieliczka
Bochnia
Brzesko
Tarnów
Dąbrowa Tarnowska
Mielec
Pilzno
Ropczyce
Kolbuszowa
Nisko
Tarnobrzeg

Polish Mountains - population ca. year 1900 - 1128636 - of which ethnic Polish: ca. 78%

includes the following counties:

Żywiec
Myślenice
Nowy Targ
Limanowa
Nowy Sącz & Muszyna
Grybów
Gorlice
Jasło
Krosno
Strzyżów
Brzozów
Sanok
Lesko
Polska Orawa
Polski Spisz

Mazovia - population ca. year 1900 - 2641247 - of which ethnic Polish: ca. 77%

includes the following counties:

Kolno
Łomża
Wysokie Mazowieckie
Ostrołęka
Ostrów Mazowiecka
Maków Mazowiecki
Przasnysz
Ciechanów
Mława
Sierpc
Płock
Pułtusk
Płońsk
Gostynin
Sochaczew
Warszawa City
Warszawa
Radzymin
Mińsk Mazowiecki
Grodzisk / Błonie
Skierniewice
Grójec
Rawa Mazowiecka
Węgrów

West Red Ruthenia - population ca. year 1900 - 1416731 - of which ethnic Polish: ca. 67%

includes the following counties:

Chełm Lubelski
Krasnystaw
Hrubieszów
Zamość
Tomaszów Lubelski
Biłgoraj
Lubaczów/Cieszanów
Jarosław
Rzeszów
Łańcut
Przemyśl
Dobromil
Rava-Ruska

Sudovia-Podlachia - population ca. year 1900 - 869790 - of which ethnic Polish: ca. 60%

includes the following counties:

Suwałki
Augustów
Sejny (part)
Szczuczyn
Sokółka
Białystok
Bielsk Podlaski
Sokołów Podlaski

Lublin Land - population ca. year 1900 - 814003 - of which ethnic Polish: ca. 81%

includes the following counties:

Siedlce
Łuków
Garwolin
Lubartów
Puławy
Lublin
Janów Lubelski

West Polesie - population ca. year 1900 - 323786 - of which ethnic Polish: ca. 67%

includes the following counties:

Janów Podlaski
Biała Podlaska
Radzyń Podlaski
Włodawa

Warmia-Masuria - population ca. year 1900 - 644588 - of which ethnic Masurian/Polish: ca. 58%

includes the following counties:

Olsztyn
Reszel
Nidzica-Działdowo
Ostróda
Szczytno
Mrągowo
Pisz
Ełk
Giżycko
Olecko
Węgorzewo
Gierdawy (part)
Gołdap (part)
Darkiejmy (part)

^^^
Those above were ethnically majority-Polish regions. There are few more that were German in 1900.

And there were also ethnically Polish areas in "Former Eastern Poland", that are not included above:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kresy#Interwar_population

Smitty

07-14-2021, 05:37 PM

Are you on Anthrogenica? There is user Waldemar there, his wife is 100% Pomeranian Polish from Kociewie.

[and his wife is on GEDmatch but I'm probably not allowed to share her kit number; she also did Global25]

Kociewie is an ethnographic region bordering Kashubia, but they speak Wielkopolski Dialect, not Kashubian:

[IG]

I'll send you one of my family's kits who has Pomeranian matches (including a German from Balfanz / Białowąs):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bia%C5%82ow%C4%85s

^^^
My cousin & grandpa's brother have a match with a Pomeranian German from there.

But I think that this German has already deleted her kit from GEDmatch, I'm afraid.

Thanks, Peterski. I'll take a look at these. I don't remember if I'm on Anthrogenica or not. I had some trouble setting up an account at one point. But I'll look again.

Peterski

07-14-2021, 06:35 PM

And now part 2 - ethnically German regions as of 1900:
[county borders like in 1900 but modern Polish names]

Oberland-Bartia - population ca. year 1900 - 433300 (ca. 4% Polish minority)

includes the following counties:

Elbląg City Elbing Stadt
Elbląg (eastern half) Elbing
Susz Rosenberg
Morąg Mohrungen
Pasłęk Preußisch Holland
Braniewo Braunsberg
Lidzbark Heilsberg
Bartoszyce (part) Friedland/Bartenstein
Iławka (part) Preußisch Eylau
Świętomiejsce (part) Heiligenbeil
Kętrzyn Rastenburg

West Pomerania - population ca. year 1900 - 1002237 (ca. 1% Polish minority)

includes the following counties:

Sławno Schlawe
Bobolice Bublitz
Szczecinek Neustettin
Koszalin Köslin
Białogard Belgard
Kołobrzeg-Karlino Kolberg-Körlin
Gryfice Greifenberg
Resko Regenwalde
Szadzko Saatzig
Kamień Pomorski Kammin
Nowogard Naugard
Pyrzyce Pyritz
Gryfino Greifenhagen
Szczecin City Stettin Stadt
Szczecin/Randow (part) Stettin/Randow
Wolin-Uznam (part) Wolin-Usedom
Wkryujście (part) Ueckermünde
Miastko Rummelsburg

Neumark (Lebus Land) - population ca. year 1900 - 505994 (ca. 1% Polish minority)

includes the following counties:

Świdwin Schivelbein
Drawsko Pomorskie Dramburg
Choszczno Arnswalde
Strzelce Krajeńskie Friedeberg
Myślibórz Soldin
Chojna Königsberg
Gorzów Wlkp. City Landsberg Stadt
Gorzów Wielkopolski Landsberg
Torzym Oststernberg
Rzepin Weststernberg

Lower Silesia - population ca. year 1900 - 2767574 (ca. 3% Polish minority)

includes the following counties:

Gubin City (part) Guben Stadt
Gubin (part) Guben
Krosno Odrzańskie Crossen
Sulechów/Świebodzin Züllichau/Schwiebus
Żary (part) Sorau
Zielona Góra Grünberg
Kożuchów Freystadt
Żagań Sagan
Zgorzelec City (part) Görlitz Stadt
Zgorzelec (part) Görlitz
Lubań Lauban
Bolesławiec Bunzlau
Szprotawa Sprottau
Głogów Glogau
Lubin Lüben
Złotoryja/Chojnów Goldberg/Haynau
Lwówek Śląski Löwenberg
Jelenia Góra City Hirschberg Stadt
Jelenia Góra Hirschberg
Świerzawa Schönau
Jawor Jauer
Bolków Bolkenhain
Kamienna Góra Landeshut
Legnica City Liegnitz Stadt
Legnica Liegnitz
Góra Guhrau
Ścinawa Steinau
Wołów Wohlau
Milicz Militsch
Trzebnica Trebnitz
Oleśnica Oels
Środa Śląska Neumarkt
Wrocław City Breslau Stadt
Wrocław Breslau
Oława Ohlau
Brzeg Brieg
Strzegom Striegau
Świdnica City Schweidnitz Stadt
Świdnica Schweidnitz
Wałbrzych City Waldenburg Stadt
Wałbrzych Waldenburg
Dzierżoniów Reichenbach
Niemcza Nimptsch
Strzelin Strehlen
Ziębice Münsterberg
Ząbkowice Śląskie Frankenstein
Nysa Neisse
Grodków Grottkau
Żytawa (part) Zittau

Land of Kladsko - population ca. year 1900 - 168556 (ca. 1% Polish minority)

includes the following counties:

Kłodzko Glatz
Bystrzyca Kłodzka Habelschwerdt
Nowa Ruda Neurode

vbnetkhio

07-14-2021, 07:44 PM

updated averages + PCA + Germans from Poland and Kaliningrad.

Greater_Poland,31.45,43.92,10.26,5.30,5.52,0.80,0. 87,0.09,0.23,0.65,0.48,0.37,0.06
Kujawy,31.83,45.41,9.95,4.66,3.33,1.47,1.02,0.20,0 .79,0.93,0.00,0.41,0.00
Lesser_Poland,31.00,43.23,11.15,5.26,5.63,0.55,0.4 7,0.06,0.80,0.85,0.57,0.29,0.16
Lodz,30.81,38.84,14.22,4.31,7.33,1.77,0.00,0.18,0. 00,1.21,0.98,0.00,0.37
Lower_Silesia,28.53,43.29,12.88,8.20,3.34,0.07,1.9 2,0.00,0.59,0.00,1.18,0.00,0.00
Lublin,28.31,42.13,11.76,5.79,7.72,0.76,0.53,0.00, 2.74,0.00,0.27,0.00,0.00
Mazovia,28.33,46.20,10.70,5.60,5.04,0.54,1.20,0.15 ,0.69,0.66,0.50,0.18,0.20
Podlaskie,29.87,46.68,7.30,4.42,6.83,1.65,1.33,0.0 0,1.06,0.35,0.52,0.00,0.00
Silesia,29.49,42.95,11.91,5.48,6.32,0.50,1.02,0.39 ,0.65,0.93,0.17,0.21,0.00
Staropolska,29.08,46.18,10.22,4.40,6.59,0.77,0.73, 0.00,0.45,0.75,0.37,0.46,0.00
Subcarpathia,26.46,43.05,9.62,5.89,9.80,2.21,0.79, 0.00,0.75,0.69,0.10,0.63,0.00

Germans:

Greater_Poland,37.13,38.22,9.06,5.30,5.42,1.22,0.9 8,0.57,0.81,0.07,0.40,0.37,0.44
Lower_Silesia,37.14,33.85,14.33,5.68,5.52,0.18,0.7 5,0.00,1.02,0.62,0.36,0.28,0.26
Klodzko,35.77,31.04,14.63,8.13,7.64,0.30,0.00,1.02 ,0.00,0.72,0.00,0.72,0.00
Pomerania,37.69,36.92,11.31,4.50,5.97,0.00,0.54,0. 00,1.45,0.71,0.46,0.31,0.15
Warmian-Masurian,46.93,35.91,9.09,1.35,2.52,2.30,0.00,0.17 ,0.18,0.28,0.97,0.25,0.07
West_Pomerania,38.70,34.77,10.22,7.24,3.58,1.59,1. 84,0.29,0.24,0.14,0.36,0.61,0.42
Kaliningrad,36.00,39.35,8.68,7.05,5.58,0.00,1.39,0 .00,0.31,0.37,0.63,0.50,0.15

https://i.imgur.com/V7H2Xz2.png

Peterski

07-14-2021, 07:54 PM

German from Greater Poland should be called Posen (as long as they were fully from Posen).

What did you use as "Warmian-Masurian German" ???

Please add ethnic Poles/Masurs from Warmia-Masuria:

WarmiaMasuria1,33,43.86,11.14,5.42,1.3,0.3,1.93,0. 81,0,0.49,0.4,0,1.36
WarmiaMasuria2,33.51,44.87,6.85,3.72,4.94,0,2.69,0 .12,1.5,0.99,0.81,0,0
WarmiaMasuria3,34.93,41.88,11.08,4.95,3.42,0.89,1. 02,0,0.27,0.51,0,1.04,0
WarmiaMasuria4,32.23,40.18,13.81,3.2,6.33,1.48,0,0 ,1.41,0,0.77,0.6,0
WarmiaMasuria5,31.74,46.77,11.29,3.53,1.42,1.84,0. 16,0,2.58,0,0,0,0.68
WarmiaMasuria6,29.67,48.02,11.08,4.32,2.23,1.18,1. 48,0,0.58,1.08,0,0.07,0.29

And also I will send you 2 ethnic Poles from Opolskie.

vbnetkhio

07-14-2021, 07:56 PM

What did you use as "Warmian-Masurian German"?

a Braniewo German you sent me long ago.

Braniewo,46.93,35.91,9.09,1.35,2.52,2.3,0,0.17,0.1 8,0.28,0.97,0.25,0.07

Peterski

07-14-2021, 08:02 PM

a Braniewo German you sent me long ago.

Can we call this population Oberland-Bartia instead? (see the list of regions I sent above - Braniewo/Braunsberg is there).

Calling it Warmia-Masuria gives a wrong impression, that they were close neighbours with Polish Masurians. They were not.

vbnetkhio

07-14-2021, 08:04 PM

And also I will send you 2 ethnic Poles from Opolskie.

should those be merged with Silesian Voivodeship into Upper Silesia?

Peterski

07-14-2021, 08:05 PM

should those be merged with Silesian Voivodeship into Upper Silesia?

As you prefer, they can be merged or we can have Opolskie separately.

BTW "Lower Silesia Polish" is that academic sample from Wrocław ???

=====

I have many Silesian kits but I did not save their K13, and they are old. I need to check if they still work on GEDmatch.

Peterski

07-14-2021, 08:09 PM

BTW, your PCA neatly distinguishes the southern end of Germans in Poland (Klodzko) from the northern end (Braniewo).

We should add Lemkos by the way, they are an important minority (all minorities must be included not just Germans):

Lemko1,30.39,35.4,13.40,9.55,9.49,0.97,0.45,0,0.21 ,0,0.08,0,0
Lemko2,26.67,38.22,16.97,8.25,7.49,0,0,0,1.95,0,0. 45,0,0
Lemko3,28.18,37.37,14.55,5.94,10.63,0,0.70,1.0,0,1 .03,0.58,0,0
Lemko4,25.72,39.53,14.62,5.61,10.31,0,0.54,1.32,0. 06,1.35,0.95,0,0

vbnetkhio

07-14-2021, 08:22 PM

German from Greater Poland should be called Posen (as long as they were fully from Posen).

I think they are also 1/4 from Pomerania, check their gedcoms. it's those I sent you now.

BTW "Lower Silesia Polish" is that academic sample from Wrocław ???

yes.

We should add Lemkos by the way, they are an important minority:

Kashubians too, if there are any on gedmatch. there should be, they aren't such a small group.

Peterski

07-14-2021, 08:24 PM

I want to split Wielkopolska into South, Central & North, because I want to check something. Are you OK with that?

We can also leave Wielkopolska without sub-regional label - for mixed kits with ancestry from all over the region.

Soon I will send you some additional Wielkopolska North and South kits which are not in my account on GEDmatch.

PS:

I'm talking about Poles from Wielkopolska.

I think they are also 1/4 from Pomerania, check their gedcoms. it's those I sent you now.

I didn't have time to check carefully, I just took a glance, but they look like Grenzmark Posen-Westpreussen to me:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posen-West_Prussia

It seems they have ancestry from these parts of Greater Poland, which remained in Germany after 1918:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Posen#Dissolution_after_1918

https://i.imgur.com/CzI1zBF.png

"Western fringes of Prussian Greater Poland remained in Germany after 1918. This area included all of county Skwierzyna and portions of counties Wschowa, Babimost, Międzyrzecz, Chodzież, Wieleń and Czarnków (Netzekreis). It contained 12 towns: Piła, Skwierzyna, Bledzew, Wschowa, Szlichtyngowa, Babimost, Kargowa, Międzyrzecz, Zbąszyń, Brójce, Trzciel and Trzcianka. The area was home to significant Polish minority."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Prussia#Dissolution

https://i.imgur.com/MJTuYtY.png

"Western part of West Prussia with county Wałcz and parts of counties Złotów and Człuchów (the latter two split between Poland and Germany). This area included 12 towns and cities: Człuchów, Debrzno, Biały Bór, Czarne, Lędyczek, Złotów, Krajenka, Wałcz, Mirosławiec, Człopa, Tuczno and Jastrowie. The area was home to significant Polish minority."

vbnetkhio

07-14-2021, 08:28 PM

I want to split Wielkopolska into South, Central & North, because I want to check something. Are you OK with that?

yes, ofc.

Peterski

07-14-2021, 08:31 PM

I think these 5 German kits can be labelled as Grenzmark, they are from that area which remained in Germany after 1918.

Some German kits from the area between Pommern and Silesia - Neumark (East Brandenburg) - would also be nice to see.

vbnetkhio

07-14-2021, 08:43 PM

I think these 5 German kits can be labelled as Grenzmark, they are from that area which remained in Germany after 1918.

they are also 1/4 from here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C5%82ocko
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janiewice

Peterski

07-14-2021, 08:45 PM

they are also 1/4 from here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C5%82ocko
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janiewice

Yeah, that's already Pommern. But they "can pass" as Grenzmark based on your 75% from one region rule.

Peterski

07-14-2021, 08:52 PM

Kashubians too, if there are any on gedmatch.

There are some, I did not save their K13, but if the kits still work, I'll check.

BTW check here a fragment from a map (made in GIMP) of my regional divisions of 1900 counties (as I described it above):

You can see here how I define Oberland-Bartia vs. Warmia-Masuria:

[one thing which is obsolete in this map is Miastko counted as part of Kashubia - I've decided to exclude it from Kashubia]
[and, also, I've excluded Gdańskie Wyżyny / Danzig Highlands from Northern Poland - and added this county to Kashubia]

https://i.imgur.com/4uIIghw.png

Peterski

07-15-2021, 06:42 PM

Here is example of an ethnic German from Czechia - from Sudetenland (you can see, that the results are similar to Klodzko German):

K13
North_Atlantic 39.77 Pct
Baltic 28.83 Pct
West_Med 13.66 Pct
West_Asian 8.25 Pct
East_Med 6.95 Pct
Red_Sea 1.62 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.9 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

vbnetkhio

10-15-2021, 09:51 PM

And also I will send you 2 ethnic Poles from Opolskie.

Could you post them?
this is the current data:

Poland_Lemko,27.74,37.63,14.89,7.34,9.48,0.24,0.42 ,0.58,0.56,0.60,0.52,0.00,0.00
Polish_Greater Poland,31.45,43.92,10.26,5.30,5.52,0.80,0.87,0.09, 0.23,0.65,0.48,0.37,0.06
Polish_Kielce,29.3,45.17,10.56,5.45,5.36,0.76,1.36 ,0.15,0.37,0.81,0.4,0.28,0.03
Polish_Kujawy,31.83,45.41,9.95,4.66,3.33,1.47,1.02 ,0.20,0.79,0.93,0.00,0.41,0.00
Polish_Lesser_Poland,31.00,43.23,11.15,5.26,5.63,0 .55,0.47,0.06,0.80,0.85,0.57,0.29,0.16
Polish_Mazovia,28.33,46.20,10.70,5.60,5.04,0.54,1. 20,0.15,0.69,0.66,0.50,0.18,0.20
Polish_North_Wielkopolska,31.98,43.23,10.06,5.79,5 .57,0.87,0.73,0.17,0.19,1.00,0.03,0.35,0.03
Polish_Podlaskie,29.87,46.68,7.30,4.42,6.83,1.65,1 .33,0.00,1.06,0.35,0.52,0.00,0.00
Polish_Silesia,29.25,43.03,12.16,6.16,5.57,0.39,1. 25,0.29,0.64,0.70,0.42,0.16,0.00
Polish_Southeast,28.71,42.67,11.10,6.04,7.21,1.18, 0.44,0.11,1.70,0.23,0.12,0.35,0.13
Polish_Staropolska,29.08,46.18,10.22,4.40,6.59,0.7 7,0.73,0.00,0.45,0.75,0.37,0.46,0.00
Polish_WarmiaMasuria,32.51,44.26,10.88,4.19,3.27,0 .95,1.21,0.16,1.06,0.51,0.33,0.29,0.39

Roy

10-15-2021, 10:22 PM

I want to split Wielkopolska into South, Central & North, because I want to check something. Are you OK with that?

We can also leave Wielkopolska without sub-regional label - for mixed kits with ancestry from all over the region.

Soon I will send you some additional Wielkopolska North and South kits which are not in my account on GEDmatch.

PS:

I'm talking about Poles from Wielkopolska.

I didn't have time to check carefully, I just took a glance, but they look like Grenzmark Posen-Westpreussen to me:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posen-West_Prussia

It seems they have ancestry from these parts of Greater Poland, which remained in Germany after 1918:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Posen#Dissolution_after_1918

https://i.imgur.com/CzI1zBF.png

"Western fringes of Prussian Greater Poland remained in Germany after 1918. This area included all of county Skwierzyna and portions of counties Wschowa, Babimost, Międzyrzecz, Chodzież, Wieleń and Czarnków (Netzekreis). It contained 12 towns: Piła, Skwierzyna, Bledzew, Wschowa, Szlichtyngowa, Babimost, Kargowa, Międzyrzecz, Zbąszyń, Brójce, Trzciel and Trzcianka. The area was home to significant Polish minority."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Prussia#Dissolution

https://i.imgur.com/MJTuYtY.png

"Western part of West Prussia with county Wałcz and parts of counties Złotów and Człuchów (the latter two split between Poland and Germany). This area included 12 towns and cities: Człuchów, Debrzno, Biały Bór, Czarne, Lędyczek, Złotów, Krajenka, Wałcz, Mirosławiec, Człopa, Tuczno and Jastrowie. The area was home to significant Polish minority."

I've never heard of the town called Trzciel in Poland, I would think it is some village. :eek: It rarely happens that I learn something like this now considering that I am a geography geek. Now it is in Lubuskie voivodeship and inhabited only by ~2000 people.

But apparently it exists and has its city charter.

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trzciel

Roy

10-15-2021, 10:26 PM

yeah. On the PCA Greater Poland looks like a more Germanic shifted Mazovia.

btw, should I add your result to any of the averages?

You can but to which one would you think?

Genetic

10-15-2021, 11:06 PM

Jana

01-18-2023, 04:23 PM

My friend has a Polish girlfriend and this are her results. She is Mazovian.

Admix Results (sorted):

1 Baltic 44.4
2 North_Atlantic 30.42
3 West_Med 11.13
4 East_Med 5.93
5 West_Asian 3.9
6 Amerindian 2.09
7 Sub-Saharan 0.8
8 Oceanian 0.7
9 South_Asian 0.63

Single Population Sharing:

1 Polish 3.34
2 Ukrainian 4.07
3 South_Polish 4.17
4 Ukrainian_Lviv 5.34
5 Estonian_Polish 5.98
6 Russian_Smolensk 5.99
7 Belorussian 6.39
8 Southwest_Russian 6.52
9 Ukrainian_Belgorod 7.41
10 Estonian 9.34
11 Croatian 9.87
12 Lithuanian 10.22
13 Southwest_Finnish 10.52
14 Kargopol_Russian 10.63
15 Finnish 11.23
16 Hungarian 12.63
17 East_Finnish 12.91
18 East_German 13.16
19 Moldavian 13.35
20 Erzya 13.69

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

1 77.5% Lithuanian + 22.5% North_Italian @ 2.61
2 78.3% Lithuanian + 21.7% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.72
3 87% Estonian_Polish + 13% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.81
4 86.4% Estonian_Polish + 13.6% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.82
5 78.5% Lithuanian + 21.5% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.85
6 77.3% Lithuanian + 22.7% Portuguese @ 2.86
7 97.1% Polish + 2.9% Sardinian @ 2.9
8 71.1% Estonian_Polish + 28.9% East_German @ 2.9
9 95.5% Polish + 4.5% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.9
10 78.3% Lithuanian + 21.7% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.9
11 96.8% Polish + 3.2% Italian_Jewish @ 2.9
12 79.2% Lithuanian + 20.8% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.9
13 98.5% Polish + 1.5% Mayan @ 2.91
14 96.3% Polish + 3.7% Ashkenazi @ 2.91
15 95.7% Polish + 4.3% Tuscan @ 2.91
16 95.4% Polish + 4.6% North_Italian @ 2.91
17 87.1% Estonian_Polish + 12.9% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.91
18 88% Estonian_Polish + 12% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.91
19 96.8% Polish + 3.2% Algerian_Jewish @ 2.92
20 98.7% Polish + 1.3% Karitiana @ 2.93

Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 1.9 Pct
Central_African -
Central_Euro 8.85 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 7.41 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 24.39 Pct
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 14.87 Pct
Fennoscandian 12.27 Pct
French 3.65 Pct
Iberian -
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 6.75 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 6.57 Pct
North_Caucasian -
North_Sea 12.74 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 0.31 Pct
West_African 0.29 Pct
West_Caucasian -
West_Med -

NdvBal

01-07-2024, 11:30 PM

Podkarpackie Voivodeship

Kit A409119

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 35.46
2 North_Atlantic 30.39
3 West_Med 13.4
4 West_Asian 9.55
5 East_Med 9.49
6 Red_Sea 0.97
7 South_Asian 0.45
8 Siberian 0.21
9 Oceanian 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Croatian 3.55
2 Hungarian 4.47
3 Moldavian 6.02
4 South_Polish 7.37
5 Ukrainian_Lviv 7.89
6 East_German 7.89
7 Austrian 8.14
8 Ukrainian 9.04
9 Serbian 9.76
10 Polish 11.16
11 Southwest_Russian 12.8
12 Ukrainian_Belgorod 12.84
13 Russian_Smolensk 13.78
14 Romanian 13.8
15 Estonian_Polish 14.59
16 Belorussian 14.88
17 Southwest_Finnish 15.83
18 Bulgarian 16.22
19 West_German 16.26
20 North_Swedish 16.47

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 81.1% South_Polish + 18.9% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.09
2 86% Croatian + 14% North_German @ 2.2
3 57.5% South_Polish + 42.5% Serbian @ 2.26
4 88% Croatian + 12% Danish @ 2.29
5 88.4% Croatian + 11.6% Norwegian @ 2.3
6 88.1% Croatian + 11.9% North_Dutch @ 2.3
7 87.4% Croatian + 12.6% Swedish @ 2.38
8 74.8% Croatian + 25.2% Austrian @ 2.39
9 89.7% Croatian + 10.3% Irish @ 2.41
10 66.1% South_Polish + 33.9% Romanian @ 2.41
11 90.1% Croatian + 9.9% West_Scottish @ 2.43
12 80% South_Polish + 20% Tuscan @ 2.44
13 59.3% Croatian + 40.7% Hungarian @ 2.46
14 89.5% Croatian + 10.5% Orcadian @ 2.47
15 89.5% Croatian + 10.5% Southeast_English @ 2.52
16 75.1% Croatian + 24.9% East_German @ 2.54
17 90.4% Croatian + 9.6% Southwest_English @ 2.57
18 87.1% Croatian + 12.9% West_German @ 2.64
19 82.3% South_Polish + 17.7% West_Sicilian @ 2.65
20 83.9% South_Polish + 16.1% South_Italian @ 2.65

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian 1.83 Pct
Basque 1.95 Pct
Central_African -
Central_Euro 7.73 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 5.22 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 23.23 Pct
East_Med 0.65 Pct
Eastern_Euro 7.69 Pct
Fennoscandian 5.17 Pct
French 5.91 Pct
Iberian 9.07 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 9.45 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 7.61 Pct
North_Caucasian 7.9 Pct
North_Sea 6.07 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med 0.52 Pct

Fistora

05-31-2025, 11:52 PM

Target: fistora
Distance: 354.5134% / 3.54513417 | ADC: 0.25x RC
59.4 Polish_Silesia
37.0 German_Lower_Silesia
3.6 Poland_Lemko

Distance to: fistora
5.88388477 Polish_Silesia
6.29678489 Polish_Lesser_Poland
7.03445805 Polish_WarmiaMasuria
7.11324820 Polish_North_Wielkopolska
7.11648790 Polish_Southeast
7.18552016 Polish_GreaterPoland
7.41791750 Poland_Lemko
8.03510423 Polish_Kielce
8.14987116 German_Pomerania
8.42802468 German_Lower_Silesia
8.44634832 German_Kaliningrad
8.51705935 Polish_Kujawy
8.65554158 German_Greater_Poland
9.01666235 Polish_Mazovia
9.26651499 Polish_Staropolska
9.80696181 German_East <--Original k13 coordinates
10.48548997 German_West_Pomerania
11.04015398 German_Klodzko
11.16751539 Polish_Podlaskie
17.79636761 German_Warmian-Masurian
20.57626788 German_North <--Original k13 coordinates
21.14877301 German_West <--Original k13 coordinates

mariusz99

06-01-2025, 06:43 AM

Target: mariusz
Distance: 166.5877% / 1.66587676
60.8 Lower_Silesia
35.6 Kujawy
3.6 German_Lower_Silesia

without Western Poland

Target: mariusz
Distance: 323.3736% / 3.23373647
78.4 Mazovia
11.2 German_West_Pomerania
10.4 German_Lower_Silesia