Europe's worst enemy?

[Joe McCarthy]

Just a few poll choices. Others are welcome.

http://library.thinkquest.org/05aug/00158/images/knightshossuleimanthemag.jpg

http://paintandsuffering.com/gallery/d/57-2/Batu+Khan.jpg

http://www.ariionkathleenbrindley.com/tax-attila-the-hun.jpg

http://historyday.crf-usa.org/2819/causes.gif

http://www.kalipedia.com/kalipediamedia/historia/media/200909/03/hisuniversal/20090903klphisuni_2_Ies_SCO.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

Who do you think ?

[Aces High]

Need you ask.

[Joe McCarthy]

Yes, yes, gentlemen, Goldman Sachs is a bigger threat than Suleiman sailing up the Danube.

Or something.

[Caeruleus]

:laugh2: Joe, you shoud have seen this coming :laugh2:

[Joe McCarthy]

:laugh2: Joe, you shoud have seen this coming :laugh2:

I have some confidence we'll get some serious responses too.

[The Lawspeaker]

I have some confidence we'll get some serious responses too.
These answers are pretty bloody serious. Deal with it.

[BanjaLuka]

Attila because had he won Battle of the Catalaunian Plains most probably people all over Europe would have slanted eyes...

Suleiman, not because of belly dancers but because of Islam of course...

Abd al-Rahman I and threat of further expansion of Arabs in Europe really should not be compared with the threat that was coming from Ottomans...

[Contra Mundum]

No Hitler? :laugh:

[Joe McCarthy]

No Hitler? :laugh:

He was at least a European. This poll, as you can probably guess from the poll options, involves external foes and is speaking historically.

[Magister Eckhart]

The greatest enemy is the enemy within.

Enemies:
Cromwell, Robespierre, Napoleon, Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Calvin, Knox, Melanchthon, Karlsstadt, Zwingli, Locke, Hume, Hobbes, Rousseau, Diderot, Montesquieu, Burke, Marx, Engels, Hegel, Feuerbach, Mendelssohn

Admittedly, I can make the list longer.

Worst enemy?

John Calvin

[Contra Mundum]

On a serious note, I voted 'other' Stalin.

FDR is a close second.

[Tabiti]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Institutions_europeennes_IMG_4300.jpg/800px-Institutions_europeennes_IMG_4300.jpg

[Joe McCarthy]

John Calvin

Hungarian Calvinism is a bigger threat to Hungary than Batu Khan, who murdered 25-75% of Hungary's population?

DO try to put your ideological-religious prejudices aside for just a few posts.

Thanks.

[Magister Eckhart]

Hungarian Calvinism is a bigger threat to Hungary than Batu Khan, who murdered 25-75% of Hungary's population?

DO try to put your ideological-religious prejudices aside for just a few posts.

Thanks.

"Europe's Worst Enemy". Who is the greater threat to Europe - the culture, the idea of Europe?

So long as one Christian lives, Christianity is alive no matter how many are martyred; so long as one Westerner is alive, so is the West. Kill the culture, kill the idea, and how many people live or die is immaterial.

[Joe McCarthy]

http://yourdailyhistorylesson.tumblr.com/post/703549743/suleiman-the-magnificent


Suleiman the Magnificent was the longest reigning and arguably greatest Sultan of the Ottoman Empire. The Ottoman Empire was a nation that spanned much of the Middle East, and even stretched out into Europe. Suleiman is known as the Lawmaker in the East, for his complete reconstruction of the Ottoman Empire’s legal system. Suleiman rose to become one of the most influential leaders of the 16th century, as he was at the helm of the Ottoman Empire’s military, economy, and politics. Suleiman was a particularly skilled military leader, and led the Ottoman’s acquisition of Christian lands.

Suleiman’s military conquests include some of the strongest Christian strongholds of the time. His first magnificent victory was taking Belgrade from the Kingdom of Hungary, a fear his grandfather Mehmed II failed to complete. This was a crucial stepping stone in defeating the Kingdom of Hungary, which was the last obstacle keeping the Ottomans from Western Europe. This caused panic throughout the Christian Europe. Hungary eventually fell to the Ottomans, and the Austrian Empire began to encroach into Hungary in an attempt to push the Ottomans back into the Middle East. Ultimately, the Austrians, with some help from the Spanish, were unsuccessful, and Suleiman ensured the Ottoman Empire would play a big role in shaping Europe for the coming centuries.

Suleiman the Magnificent was easily one of the Ottoman Empire’s most influential sultans, as he opened up the Ottoman Empire into Europe. This ensured that the Ottomans would play a role in the European theater until the downfall of the Ottoman Empire in 1923. The Ottomans territory expanded in every direction thanks to Suleiman, making the Ottoman Empire the most powerful empire in the world on several occasions


Europe is still affected by his legacy.

[Leliana]

All of them were foes to Europe, Christianity and the Occident. I had to vote for everyone on the list.

[Hess]

why isn't Xerxes I on the list? and also Murad II

[Joe McCarthy]

why isn't Xerxes I on the list? and also Murad II

I wanted to limit the baddies to one per bad country/people.

Is there a real argument for Murad II over these others? If so, I'd be pleased to hear it.

[Joe McCarthy]

Anyway, it seems to me intent is key here, as in intent to conquer, and it is very clear that Suleiman was determined, aggressive, and offered sustained effort in trying to conquer Christendom. These others, particularly Batu and Attila, offered what amounted to some extent as glorified raids, though Attila's European empire was huge.

For that reason I'm going with Suleiman.

[BeerBaron]

Atilla the Hun does it for me, the Huns were known as the scourge of Europe for a reason. The current rise of asia is cause for concern based on historical facts as well.

[Joe McCarthy]

Atilla the Hun does it for me, the Huns were known as the scourge of Europe for a reason. The current rise of asia is cause for concern based on historical facts as well.

He killed more, but if anything he was limited by his own lack of statecraft and his brutality. Suleiman may have been more dangerous if only because along with being militarily proficient, he was a very skilled politician, unlike Attila.

[Peasant]

Europe is it's own worst enemy.

[Guapo]

muslims

[Joe McCarthy]

http://mybyzantine.files.wordpress.com/2010/05/mehmet-the-conqueror.jpg?w=600

[Drawing-slim]

Serbia without a doubt, and orthodox christianity overall.
Serbia started both world wars, and today is a state located within europe that sides with russia and cheers everything that has to do with western distruction.
Serbian regime not serbian people massively, need i clearify.

[StonyArabia]

Abid Rahaman I, if the Arabs and their Berber vassals were successful at Potiers, Europe would have been speaking Arabic and most of it would have turned Wogish, short and dark skinned

[Guapo]

Albania without a doubt, and islam overall.
albania started terrorizing christian people in the Serbian province of Kosovo, and today is a state located within europe that sides with Saudi Arabia and cheers everything that has to do with drug trade and organ trafficking.
albanian regime not albanian people massively, need i clearify and i'm dumb so i can't write in englrish properllee.

[Nixon]

Liberals are the #1 enemy, all the rest like Muslims, radical homosexual groups etc., are just their useful idiots.

[Hess]

Serbia without a doubt, and orthodox christianity overall.

oh fuck off. You seriously think that Serbia is more of a problem to Europe than Islam?


Serbia started both world wars


That is the most imbecilic assessment of the causes of WWI and II that i've ever heard in my life. Are you listening to yourself? please, please tell me you're just drunk.


and today is a state located within europe that sides with russia and cheers everything that has to do with western distruction.
Serbian regime not serbian people massively, need i clearify.

First of all, Russia itself is part of Europe and therefore the West.

Second, Serbian-Russian relations have been dismal ever since NATO bombed Belgrade on your behalf :rolleyes2:

[askra]

the credit rating agencies like Standard & Poor's, Moody's and Fitch.

[Odoacer]

First of all, Russia itself is part of Europe and therefore the West.

Historically speaking, the West ends where Eastern Orthodoxy begins:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Europe_religion_map_en.png/737px-Europe_religion_map_en.png

Russia is not part of the West. Perhaps one day she may be, but as things stand, she is not, nor has she yet been.

[Hess]

Historically speaking, the West ends where Eastern Orthodoxy begins:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Europe_religion_map_en.png/737px-Europe_religion_map_en.png

Russia is not part of the West. Perhaps one day she may be, but as things stand, she is not, nor has she yet been.

I define the west as anything that's in Europe. Some prominent scholars (including Samuel Huntington, who I respect very much) will disagree, but I stand by my position.

[Supreme American]

At this point, itself.

[Odoacer]

I define the west as anything that's in Europe. Some prominent scholars (including Samuel Huntington, who I respect very much) will disagree, but I stand by my position.

Is the U.S. part of the West, in this scheme?

[Gaztelu]

I define the west as anything that's in Europe. Some prominent scholars (including Samuel Huntington, who I respect very much) will disagree, but I stand by my position.

Just out of curiosity, do Russians see themselves as Westerners?

[Joe McCarthy]

Russia is firmly linked to the Byzantine tradition, Orthodoxy, the Eastern wing of the Christian schism, uses the Cyrillic alphabet, had no exposure to the Reformation, little more to the Renaissance, and barely more to the Enlightenment. This was due in part to geographical insularity, but also to a conscious policy as Slavophiles rejected Western developments, saw it as a threat and imposition, and had long memories about Nevsky resisting the Teutonic Knights. The 'Eurasian' imprint with the Mongols is another factor as well, especially as Eurasianists see the Mongols as having been in alliance with Russia to protect it from Western cultural inroads. This impact was felt similarly by Orthodox countries under Ottoman rule.

In other words, Russia is not a part of Western Civilization, if Western Civilization means anything beyond a vague platitude.

[Hess]

Is the U.S. part of the West, in this scheme?

Indeed. It may not be part of Europe proper, but it certainly can be considered a part of Western Civilization (along with Australia, New Zealand, etc.)


Just out of curiosity, do Russians see themselves as Westerners?

define "Westerner". Many Russians feel estranged from Western Europe because of NATO Hostility, but politics aside they are Europeans at heart and many identify with Europe.

[The Lawspeaker]

At this point, itself.
Aye. But with a little bit of "help" from our friends:

http://i1-win.softpedia-static.com/screenshots/Real-US-Flag_1.jpg

http://www.zionstower.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Israel-Flag-Flying2-2009.jpg