Kaspias
07-22-2021, 09:37 PM
It is all started with I'm realizing I have a Bulgarian 4th cousin 23andme, his surname "Etropolski (https://forebears.io/surnames/etropolski)" was dense in the region Samokov, simultaneously probably refer to a town called "Etropole" in Sofia. I couldn't figure out what is the role of Samokov here, going with the similarity of the surname and the town Etropole. So I contacted him and asked his origin, and indeed all of his ancestors turned out to be from the Samokov. I then wondered if I have more matches in the region and searched all of my 23andme and FTDNA match lists. I have had 4 matches from the Samokov, none of them were matching with each other, but all of them(including I) were matching with a list of Hungarians who has origin from the specific regions.
The issue as a whole drew my attention, and started to search on the thing that makes Etropole and Samokov common:
The most important iron production area of the entire Ottoman geography is the 200 km long region stretching from Kriva Palanka and Kratovo, which are on the border of Yugoslavia, to Plovdiv, which extends to the south of Bulgaria; Dobnice, Kyustendil, Sofia, Etropole, Samakov, and Pazardzhik were located in this area. (Fulya Eruz, a.g.m., Ankara-2004, s.253-255.)
The ore ledges brought Saxon miners to the town Etropole in the 16th century. They introduced the Samokov hammer technology and helped for the area's establishment as a centre of craftsmanship and mining, with gold, copper, silver and iron being extracted in the 16th and 17th centuries.
Then looked into town's own historical accounts, starting with Samakov:
Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samokov),
It is thought that Samokov was founded in the 14th century as a mining settlement with the assistance of Saxon miners. It was first mentioned in 1455 and in Ottoman registers of 1477 as Vlaychov Samokov. Some of the best craftsmen, woodcarving masters and builders came from Samokov and were recognized for their skills in creating detailed and impressive woodcarvings, painting beautiful icons and building unique architecture.
In fact Samokov was one of the then famous three woodcarving schools in the region, the other two being Debar and Bansko. Their work can be seen in many churches and cultural buildings throughout the Balkan Peninsula. Between the 14th and 18th centuries, Samokov was established as an administrative center for iron ore mining by the ruling Ottoman Empire.
In the 16th and 17th centuries, it grew into the greatest iron extraction centre in the region, with western travellers describing it as 'a fairly large city'. In 15651566, Samokov had to produce and deliver to Belgrade 20,000 horseshoes and 30,000 nails. Samokov also produced anchors and other materials for the shipyards of the Bulgarian Black Sea Coast, particularly Pomorie. As the logging industry was also well developed, in 1573 the people of Samokov had to deliver 300 beams as far as Mecca.
Islamic Encylopedia,
(https://islamansiklopedisi.org.tr/samakov)
This document shows that the existence of very important iron deposits and very advanced iron production, several Samakov villages had a certain number of forges and smelting furnaces. Some of the villages in the region are named after the people who opened the first mines (such as Just Samakov, Radičko Samakov, Bosniak or Sasi). These names refer to Saxon miners who were brought by Serbian kings in the 14th century and settled in Western Bulgaria by the Bulgarian tsars. Documents on the regulation of mines and their rights and privileges have been translated directly from the old German originals. The Ottomans also preserved these privileges while continuing their mining activities.
In the 15th century, Samakov remained a small place around the ruined castle. Small groups of Muslim Turks settled around the castle and founded the village of Çamurlu in 1413. Turks also settled in places such as Banya-i Has and Banya-i Constanta or Banya-i Muslim. In the Samakov district, a fairly dense Bulgarian Christian population remained.
It is seen that Samakov developed into a town as a result of the activities of Akağa Hüseyin Ağa, one of the gatekeepers who lived in Amasya with Bayezid II before 1481 and went to Istanbul with him after this date.
By 1570 Samakov had become a prosperous town with around 2000 inhabitants, 57% of whom were Muslims. In the 16th century, the Ottomans brought Hungarian miners from Transylvania to the Samakov region and provided specific privileges to them.
Then searched about the case in academia, found this article (https://tez.yok.gov.tr/UlusalTezMerkezi/tezDetay.jsp?id=jP_bV5CLcoPnxf5O8feFZw&no=i5Cs7Sdx3NG7gLu1YY5q1g):
Mining laws constitute an important part of the laws in the Ottoman Empire during the reign of Fatih and Bayezid II. The mining laws of Saxon origin, which were previously applied in the mines in the Balkans, were continued by the Ottomans with some changes. For this reason, many of the technical and legal terms in the Ottoman code of laws were of German origin and were transferred to the Ottoman Empire through local languages such as Serbian-Croatian. These mining laws emerged as a result of the orders given by Sultan Suleiman to adapt and apply the old Saxony mining laws according to Ottoman conditions.
Most of the workers in Samakov were Hungarian miner groups brought from Erdel(Transylvania) in the 16th century. However, another group employed in this field were Tatars and Yörüks. But when you look at the situation, all the workers here are registered with Muslim names. In this sense, the workers here must have converted to Islam over time.
It then notes,
The reports and observations of two French mining engineers who visited Samakov in 1848 and 1849 are important sources in order to understand the living standards of the workers living in the Samakov district. These engineers portray the local miners as loyal to their managers and working hours. It was also noted that the workers and their families here were of Slavic origin and had been working in metalworking for several generations.
We understand that the worker-group in the mines were replaced with the Slavic population in at least around the 1750s and Hungarian and Turkic populations abdicated.
It ends with this:
In the early 18th century, the Muslim population was reduced to 30% from 57%. The remaining Muslim Turkish population of Samakov left for the remaining Ottoman provinces following the 1877 Russo-Turkish War.
At this stage, I have to note that all names(pretty common though) we know from my paternal grandfather's line(traced until great-grandfather) were present in Samokov's "Tekke" district and in Provadia, where we know my paternal-great grandfather were came from, there is a district called with the same name "Tekke."
For those who don't know, despite all of my paternal ancestry were from Komotini in the last 100 years, the state registers mentions that my paternal great-grandfather were born in Provadia, escaped to Komotini during the War Period. His line has no relative at all here and we do not know what happened to his relatives, not even know a single one.
See (https://dergipark.org.tr/tr/download/article-file/164307):
Neighborhoods of the city of Pravadi in 1844 were Cami-i Atik, İskender, Orta, Kurt Kassab, Köhne Hamam, Namazgah, Varoş, Tekke and Küçük Hacı. Cami-i Atîk, Kurt Kasap, İskender, Köhne Hamam and Küçük Hacı neighborhoods are among the old neighborhoods known since 1530.
Although "Tekke" is a common name for Turkish districts, it is understood here that the same district was not present in the 16th century in which missionary activities are at it's densest. (Tekke is dervish lodge, by the way.) So either the Provadian neighbourhood Tekke were a late conversion attempt which is not usual, or it's folk were migrated from somewhere else and used the same name.
The story is not finished yet. Following 1877, a number of the population reaches up to 200.000 who were previously settled in "Varna" - that also covers Provadia - were sent to the Bilecik, Bozüyük. Interesting enough, there is a neighborhood in the modern Bozüyük with the same name. In addition, the mentioned neighborhood was formed following the migration of the Balkan Turks. Of course, what I wrote about my paternal grandfather's relation with the topic is an assumption regarding the clues, but the rest of the findings provides strong signals. If the hypothesis is true then the Hungarian ancestor would marry with either a Yoruk(who probably were migrated from Amasya with the Hüseyin Ağa) or a Tatar's daughter and accept Islam, then melted within mainstream Balkan Turkish population.
Genetic data I have:
First of all, the ranking of 23andme relatives is kind of weird for someone who has no ancestry from Romania, and not even from a bordering region.
Romania (27)
Bulgaria (23)
Poland (20)
Greece (20)
Serbia (17)
Italy (14)
Germany (10)
Ukraine (9)
Bosnia and Herzegovina (8)
Hungary (8)
Slovakia (7)
Croatia (7)
Austria (6)
Turkey (6)
When including the FTDNA data, regions I match usually:
Suceava (Probably for the same reason I have elevated Polish matches, and my closest match is actually a Polish from Galicia)
Cluj
Hunedoara
Județul Sălaj
Mureș
Alba Iulia
Neamț
However, 23andme does not provide any region to me, so I will have to proceed with MyHeritage. So far it provides 4 regions.
A specific region in Central Anatolia that also covers the mentioned Amasya. Basic logic here, if it can measure the relativity with Hungarian ancestor, then it must also measure the person he mixed.
Greece
Bulgaria
Germany, Poland, Czechia, Austria, and Hungary
Besides, my overall 4th closest match comes out a Szekely.
Population
North_Atlantic 24.47 Pct
Baltic 31.54 Pct
West_Med 18.62 Pct
West_Asian 5.62 Pct
East_Med 11.85 Pct
Red_Sea 1.03 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 3.44 Pct
Siberian 2.02 Pct
Amerindian 1.26 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 0.14 Pct
Sub-Saharan -
Distance to: Szandor
5.88470050 Serb_Bosnia
5.91274894 Croat_South
6.24146617 Bosniak
6.43460955 Serb_Serbia_West
6.54670910 Serb_Croatia
6.61789241 Csángó-Ceangău
6.63118391 Romania_Moldavia_North
6.71338961 Serb
6.71611495 Moldova_average
6.81390490 Croat
6.81900286 Moldova_Centre
6.89612210 Croat_West
7.05710280 Serb_Serbia_Central
7.12536315 Moldova_North
7.16905154 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
7.22177956 Romania_Maramures
7.27194609 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
7.40807667 Croat_East
7.43983199 Hungarian_Alföld
7.46371891 Bosniak_Bosnia
7.65602377 Serb_Herzegovina
8.41771941 Hungarian
8.44634832 Serb_Serbia_South
8.63262417 Romania_Crisana
8.65578419 Croat_North
Population
Gedrosia 3.08 Pct
Siberian 2.23 Pct
Northwest_African 0.56 Pct
Southeast_Asian 0.2 Pct
Atlantic_Med 27.15 Pct
North_European 41.77 Pct
South_Asian -
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 4.14 Pct
East_Asian 2.87 Pct
Caucasus 17.99 Pct
Sub_Saharan -
Distance to: Szandor
4.19716571 Croat_South
4.19847591 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
4.57062359 Bosnian
4.89570220 Moldovan_North
5.16391324 Croat
5.30882285 Moldovan_Central
5.75429405 Hungarian
5.75602293 Serb
5.80660830 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
6.30358628 Slovenian
6.43847032 Hungarian_Alföld
7.02156678 Hungarian_North
7.90845750 Ukrainian_Ivano-Frankivsk
9.09152352 Montenegrin
10.52105508 Czech
10.62976481 Slovak
10.84819340 Romanian
10.95228743 Bavarian_German
11.45813685 Moldovan_South
12.36368877 Bulgarian_West
12.94014297 Pomak_Bulgaria
13.38545853 Bulgarian_Central
13.63199178 German
14.11727311 Belgian
14.21642712 Dutch
A hypothetical mix of Szekely and Yörük from Amasya(this one is actually a presumption going with the Hüseyin Ağa's origin, the Yörük might be from somewhere else or even a Tatar) would score exactly as an average Balkan Turkish, therefore a genetic drift is not necessary. Actually it is impossible when considering ancestry dates to the 16-17th century(which may give you clues about the range of these tests). Finally, there are also some minor things I came across which I can point out, but believing you pretty much understood the case, so not going to take more of your time with it.
In the late-2016 when I joined the community I didn't even know the actual ethnicity of my father, but after several years I'm able to trace a 300-year-old ancestry thanks to these tests and other possibilities provided. From my perspective, it is just incredible.
If can you provide some Hungarian or Romanian sources related to the mentioned migration from the region to the Samokov I also would be happy to read them.
The issue as a whole drew my attention, and started to search on the thing that makes Etropole and Samokov common:
The most important iron production area of the entire Ottoman geography is the 200 km long region stretching from Kriva Palanka and Kratovo, which are on the border of Yugoslavia, to Plovdiv, which extends to the south of Bulgaria; Dobnice, Kyustendil, Sofia, Etropole, Samakov, and Pazardzhik were located in this area. (Fulya Eruz, a.g.m., Ankara-2004, s.253-255.)
The ore ledges brought Saxon miners to the town Etropole in the 16th century. They introduced the Samokov hammer technology and helped for the area's establishment as a centre of craftsmanship and mining, with gold, copper, silver and iron being extracted in the 16th and 17th centuries.
Then looked into town's own historical accounts, starting with Samakov:
Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samokov),
It is thought that Samokov was founded in the 14th century as a mining settlement with the assistance of Saxon miners. It was first mentioned in 1455 and in Ottoman registers of 1477 as Vlaychov Samokov. Some of the best craftsmen, woodcarving masters and builders came from Samokov and were recognized for their skills in creating detailed and impressive woodcarvings, painting beautiful icons and building unique architecture.
In fact Samokov was one of the then famous three woodcarving schools in the region, the other two being Debar and Bansko. Their work can be seen in many churches and cultural buildings throughout the Balkan Peninsula. Between the 14th and 18th centuries, Samokov was established as an administrative center for iron ore mining by the ruling Ottoman Empire.
In the 16th and 17th centuries, it grew into the greatest iron extraction centre in the region, with western travellers describing it as 'a fairly large city'. In 15651566, Samokov had to produce and deliver to Belgrade 20,000 horseshoes and 30,000 nails. Samokov also produced anchors and other materials for the shipyards of the Bulgarian Black Sea Coast, particularly Pomorie. As the logging industry was also well developed, in 1573 the people of Samokov had to deliver 300 beams as far as Mecca.
Islamic Encylopedia,
(https://islamansiklopedisi.org.tr/samakov)
This document shows that the existence of very important iron deposits and very advanced iron production, several Samakov villages had a certain number of forges and smelting furnaces. Some of the villages in the region are named after the people who opened the first mines (such as Just Samakov, Radičko Samakov, Bosniak or Sasi). These names refer to Saxon miners who were brought by Serbian kings in the 14th century and settled in Western Bulgaria by the Bulgarian tsars. Documents on the regulation of mines and their rights and privileges have been translated directly from the old German originals. The Ottomans also preserved these privileges while continuing their mining activities.
In the 15th century, Samakov remained a small place around the ruined castle. Small groups of Muslim Turks settled around the castle and founded the village of Çamurlu in 1413. Turks also settled in places such as Banya-i Has and Banya-i Constanta or Banya-i Muslim. In the Samakov district, a fairly dense Bulgarian Christian population remained.
It is seen that Samakov developed into a town as a result of the activities of Akağa Hüseyin Ağa, one of the gatekeepers who lived in Amasya with Bayezid II before 1481 and went to Istanbul with him after this date.
By 1570 Samakov had become a prosperous town with around 2000 inhabitants, 57% of whom were Muslims. In the 16th century, the Ottomans brought Hungarian miners from Transylvania to the Samakov region and provided specific privileges to them.
Then searched about the case in academia, found this article (https://tez.yok.gov.tr/UlusalTezMerkezi/tezDetay.jsp?id=jP_bV5CLcoPnxf5O8feFZw&no=i5Cs7Sdx3NG7gLu1YY5q1g):
Mining laws constitute an important part of the laws in the Ottoman Empire during the reign of Fatih and Bayezid II. The mining laws of Saxon origin, which were previously applied in the mines in the Balkans, were continued by the Ottomans with some changes. For this reason, many of the technical and legal terms in the Ottoman code of laws were of German origin and were transferred to the Ottoman Empire through local languages such as Serbian-Croatian. These mining laws emerged as a result of the orders given by Sultan Suleiman to adapt and apply the old Saxony mining laws according to Ottoman conditions.
Most of the workers in Samakov were Hungarian miner groups brought from Erdel(Transylvania) in the 16th century. However, another group employed in this field were Tatars and Yörüks. But when you look at the situation, all the workers here are registered with Muslim names. In this sense, the workers here must have converted to Islam over time.
It then notes,
The reports and observations of two French mining engineers who visited Samakov in 1848 and 1849 are important sources in order to understand the living standards of the workers living in the Samakov district. These engineers portray the local miners as loyal to their managers and working hours. It was also noted that the workers and their families here were of Slavic origin and had been working in metalworking for several generations.
We understand that the worker-group in the mines were replaced with the Slavic population in at least around the 1750s and Hungarian and Turkic populations abdicated.
It ends with this:
In the early 18th century, the Muslim population was reduced to 30% from 57%. The remaining Muslim Turkish population of Samakov left for the remaining Ottoman provinces following the 1877 Russo-Turkish War.
At this stage, I have to note that all names(pretty common though) we know from my paternal grandfather's line(traced until great-grandfather) were present in Samokov's "Tekke" district and in Provadia, where we know my paternal-great grandfather were came from, there is a district called with the same name "Tekke."
For those who don't know, despite all of my paternal ancestry were from Komotini in the last 100 years, the state registers mentions that my paternal great-grandfather were born in Provadia, escaped to Komotini during the War Period. His line has no relative at all here and we do not know what happened to his relatives, not even know a single one.
See (https://dergipark.org.tr/tr/download/article-file/164307):
Neighborhoods of the city of Pravadi in 1844 were Cami-i Atik, İskender, Orta, Kurt Kassab, Köhne Hamam, Namazgah, Varoş, Tekke and Küçük Hacı. Cami-i Atîk, Kurt Kasap, İskender, Köhne Hamam and Küçük Hacı neighborhoods are among the old neighborhoods known since 1530.
Although "Tekke" is a common name for Turkish districts, it is understood here that the same district was not present in the 16th century in which missionary activities are at it's densest. (Tekke is dervish lodge, by the way.) So either the Provadian neighbourhood Tekke were a late conversion attempt which is not usual, or it's folk were migrated from somewhere else and used the same name.
The story is not finished yet. Following 1877, a number of the population reaches up to 200.000 who were previously settled in "Varna" - that also covers Provadia - were sent to the Bilecik, Bozüyük. Interesting enough, there is a neighborhood in the modern Bozüyük with the same name. In addition, the mentioned neighborhood was formed following the migration of the Balkan Turks. Of course, what I wrote about my paternal grandfather's relation with the topic is an assumption regarding the clues, but the rest of the findings provides strong signals. If the hypothesis is true then the Hungarian ancestor would marry with either a Yoruk(who probably were migrated from Amasya with the Hüseyin Ağa) or a Tatar's daughter and accept Islam, then melted within mainstream Balkan Turkish population.
Genetic data I have:
First of all, the ranking of 23andme relatives is kind of weird for someone who has no ancestry from Romania, and not even from a bordering region.
Romania (27)
Bulgaria (23)
Poland (20)
Greece (20)
Serbia (17)
Italy (14)
Germany (10)
Ukraine (9)
Bosnia and Herzegovina (8)
Hungary (8)
Slovakia (7)
Croatia (7)
Austria (6)
Turkey (6)
When including the FTDNA data, regions I match usually:
Suceava (Probably for the same reason I have elevated Polish matches, and my closest match is actually a Polish from Galicia)
Cluj
Hunedoara
Județul Sălaj
Mureș
Alba Iulia
Neamț
However, 23andme does not provide any region to me, so I will have to proceed with MyHeritage. So far it provides 4 regions.
A specific region in Central Anatolia that also covers the mentioned Amasya. Basic logic here, if it can measure the relativity with Hungarian ancestor, then it must also measure the person he mixed.
Greece
Bulgaria
Germany, Poland, Czechia, Austria, and Hungary
Besides, my overall 4th closest match comes out a Szekely.
Population
North_Atlantic 24.47 Pct
Baltic 31.54 Pct
West_Med 18.62 Pct
West_Asian 5.62 Pct
East_Med 11.85 Pct
Red_Sea 1.03 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 3.44 Pct
Siberian 2.02 Pct
Amerindian 1.26 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 0.14 Pct
Sub-Saharan -
Distance to: Szandor
5.88470050 Serb_Bosnia
5.91274894 Croat_South
6.24146617 Bosniak
6.43460955 Serb_Serbia_West
6.54670910 Serb_Croatia
6.61789241 Csángó-Ceangău
6.63118391 Romania_Moldavia_North
6.71338961 Serb
6.71611495 Moldova_average
6.81390490 Croat
6.81900286 Moldova_Centre
6.89612210 Croat_West
7.05710280 Serb_Serbia_Central
7.12536315 Moldova_North
7.16905154 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
7.22177956 Romania_Maramures
7.27194609 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
7.40807667 Croat_East
7.43983199 Hungarian_Alföld
7.46371891 Bosniak_Bosnia
7.65602377 Serb_Herzegovina
8.41771941 Hungarian
8.44634832 Serb_Serbia_South
8.63262417 Romania_Crisana
8.65578419 Croat_North
Population
Gedrosia 3.08 Pct
Siberian 2.23 Pct
Northwest_African 0.56 Pct
Southeast_Asian 0.2 Pct
Atlantic_Med 27.15 Pct
North_European 41.77 Pct
South_Asian -
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 4.14 Pct
East_Asian 2.87 Pct
Caucasus 17.99 Pct
Sub_Saharan -
Distance to: Szandor
4.19716571 Croat_South
4.19847591 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
4.57062359 Bosnian
4.89570220 Moldovan_North
5.16391324 Croat
5.30882285 Moldovan_Central
5.75429405 Hungarian
5.75602293 Serb
5.80660830 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
6.30358628 Slovenian
6.43847032 Hungarian_Alföld
7.02156678 Hungarian_North
7.90845750 Ukrainian_Ivano-Frankivsk
9.09152352 Montenegrin
10.52105508 Czech
10.62976481 Slovak
10.84819340 Romanian
10.95228743 Bavarian_German
11.45813685 Moldovan_South
12.36368877 Bulgarian_West
12.94014297 Pomak_Bulgaria
13.38545853 Bulgarian_Central
13.63199178 German
14.11727311 Belgian
14.21642712 Dutch
A hypothetical mix of Szekely and Yörük from Amasya(this one is actually a presumption going with the Hüseyin Ağa's origin, the Yörük might be from somewhere else or even a Tatar) would score exactly as an average Balkan Turkish, therefore a genetic drift is not necessary. Actually it is impossible when considering ancestry dates to the 16-17th century(which may give you clues about the range of these tests). Finally, there are also some minor things I came across which I can point out, but believing you pretty much understood the case, so not going to take more of your time with it.
In the late-2016 when I joined the community I didn't even know the actual ethnicity of my father, but after several years I'm able to trace a 300-year-old ancestry thanks to these tests and other possibilities provided. From my perspective, it is just incredible.
If can you provide some Hungarian or Romanian sources related to the mentioned migration from the region to the Samokov I also would be happy to read them.