So called "Evidence" regarding the Universe...

[Barreldriver]

You know how those involved in the numerous "space programs" bring back "evidence" of certain traits/characteristics of our solar system via probes, maned flight, etc... and according to this "evidence" life is not sustainable as we know it anywhere in the solar system except for earth. Well, how do we know for sure? How do we know that the evidence presented is valid, not a forgery to fool us? What if life is sustainable and adaptations to any life forms there, or natural protective forces on the planets allow for their to be life in accordance to their position in the solar system i.e. what if places like Venus for example, have an extra resistant atmosphere that protects against the suns intensity at such a range, how do we know for a fact that Venus is like the text books portray? The reasoning is these texts and other media sources of "evidence" are built on government sponsored "studies" and since the history of man those in power have deceived those who were not, so who's to say that any of this "evidence" is valid at all?

For all we know outer space could be as the connection of realms portrayed in the Eddas, the planets home to various "Mythical" beings that travel to and from place to place.

[Aliandrin]

It's based on the best evidence, and of course our understanding will grow and change as our best evidence increases.

But that's no reason to throw out Occham's Razor and suggest that simply because we do not know things are not so, that they are so, or even very well might be so. That is the task of the Science Fiction writer.

[Barreldriver]

It's based on the best evidence, and of course our understanding will grow and change as our best evidence increases.

But that's no reason to throw out Occham's Razor and suggest that simply because we do not know things are not so, that they are so, or even very well might be so. That is the task of the Science Fiction writer.

How do we know this evidence is real though? It's all sponsored by governments world wide, and these "governments" have legacies of lies and deceit.

[Aliandrin]

In this case I doubt it. The space budget is so bloated and accomplishes so little that they're not hiding the fact that they're wasting your money.

[Barreldriver]

In this case I doubt it. The space budget is so bloated and accomplishes so little that they're not hiding the fact that they're wasting your money.

we have no money. What is there to waste? They're probably using the "space program" as a cover up or all we know. I've just been thinking of these things more and more lately.

[Aliandrin]

It's possible I suppose, but I doubt the pictures are fabrications. They've been getting pictures of distant objects that can only be seen from space long before the possibilities existed to digitally fake them.

If the space program is fake, I will be sorely disappointed.

[Psychonaut]

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here. Is it a general criticism of science or more of a particular criticism of NASA?


You know how those involved in the numerous "space programs" bring back "evidence" of certain traits/characteristics of our solar system via probes, maned flight, etc... and according to this "evidence" life is not sustainable as we know it anywhere in the solar system except for earth. Well, how do we know for sure? How do we know that the evidence presented is valid, not a forgery to fool us?

This is one of the coolest things about modern science. It has created a new intellectual aristocracy that's not too dissimilar from the priesthoods of old. Those people who are not conversant in the language of science will have no means by which to judge the truth or falsity of any given scientific theory. Want to know for sure? Hit the books. :)


how do we know for a fact that Venus is like the text books portray? The reasoning is these texts and other media sources of "evidence" are built on government sponsored "studies" and since the history of man those in power have deceived those who were not, so who's to say that any of this "evidence" is valid at all?

So, this is a specific critique of NASA? Personally, I can think of no reason whatsoever why they would doctor or make up data from unmanned satellites, photos, etc. All of the data that makes up the picture we have of our universe is open source. If you're interested enough you can find out exactly how and when each bit of information that we have was collected. However, if you're convinced that NASA is lying to you, then I suppose that wouldn't do the trick.


For all we know outer space could be as the connection of realms portrayed in the Eddas, the planets home to various "Mythical" beings that travel to and from place to place.

Ask yourself this: which does the evidence support? Any person with a little expendable cash can invest in a telescope and an astronomy textbook. With just a little effort you can literally see a great deal of what's out there in the night sky. You can personally verify that the Heavens are much closer to the descriptions provided by NASA than those of the Eddas. That's not to say at all that there isn't any value in mythic cosmology, but I don't think that denying science in favor of myths is healthy.

[Loddfafner]

I have observed the sky through telescopes. I know some of the people doing research on the solar system and I respect them. I have followed scientific progress for almost my entire life. For these reasons, I believe that it is far more likely that science is on the right track than that it is part of some gigantic hoax.

Science does not lead to absolute certainty but does lead to enough confidence about what is out there to act effectively and appropriately. It has led to ruling out such possibilities as that the moon is made of green cheese or that Mars is covered in jungles. Venus has so much sulphuric acid that probes there do not last long, which makes life of any sort extremely unlikely.

Life as we know it is increasingly unlikely in the rest of the solar system. There might be some underground microbes on Mars, and maybe in some of the larger moons of the outer planets, but that is only speculation. There could be lifelike processes that we do not know how to recognize such as methane-breathing gasbags in the atmosphere of Jupiter and Saturn but that is pure speculation at this point.

[Loki]

I don't really understand the original question of the thread either. My father used to be an amateur astronomer and built himself a huge telescope. We could see many things in the night sky through that, including distant galaxies.

As for life beyond earth ... it actually requires more faith (and a whole lot of arrogance) to believe that earth is unique in the universe to have life develop on it, than otherwise. Mathematically, if you consider the expanse of the universe, it is probable that there are millions of other planets with lifeforms on them, and probably thousands, if not millions, of them, with intelligent life. I think we fail to grasp how big the universe is, and how small a part of it we are.

[Loddfafner]

I think there is more room for doubt about the existence of intelligent life on earth than that there is of a massive cover-up of the literal truth of the Voluspa or of Genesis.

[Manifest Destiny]

How do we know this evidence is real though? It's all sponsored by governments world wide, and these "governments" have legacies of lies and deceit.

I'm not a fan of governments by any stretch, but believing that they're covering up evidence about the universe is a bit too conspiratorial for my tastes.

[Rainraven]

Ya know, there's actually a song about that, Enter Shikari - We can breathe in space, they just don't want us to escape :coffee:

I have to say if outer space was full of unicorns and dragons I think it would have leaked by now. :D

If this was a conspiracy then what would they be hiding? Why would they bother to hide it? And why would they create such an extravagent cover story?

Would they not have been better off saying the whole solar system was full of some sort of noxious gas that destroyed our spaceships and left it at that?

All just sounds a wee bit too farfetched and not thought out enough :rolleyes2:

[Barreldriver]

I don't really understand the original question of the thread either. My father used to be an amateur astronomer and built himself a huge telescope. We could see many things in the night sky through that, including distant galaxies.

As for life beyond earth ... it actually requires more faith (and a whole lot of arrogance) to believe that earth is unique in the universe to have life develop on it, than otherwise. Mathematically, if you consider the expanse of the universe, it is probable that there are millions of other planets with lifeforms on them, and probably thousands, if not millions, of them, with intelligent life. I think we fail to grasp how big the universe is, and how small a part of it we are.

My main point was how they automatically claim that Earth is the only life sustaining planet in the solar system, when they cannot accurately make that claim IMO because for all we know a different kind of life could exist where humans can not i.e. the extreme colds of the further most planets in the solar system or the extreme heats of those closer to the sun, and could breath the gases that are harmful to us. How do we know that what they observe with these probes, is what they tell us?


I'm not a fan of governments by any stretch, but believing that they're covering up evidence about the universe is a bit too conspiratorial for my tastes.

that's why this is in the conspiracy section. :P


Ya know, there's actually a song about that, Enter Shikari - We can breathe in space, they just don't want us to escape :coffee:

I have to say if outer space was full of unicorns and dragons I think it would have leaked by now. :D

If this was a conspiracy then what would they be hiding? Why would they bother to hide it? And why would they create such an extravagent cover story?

Would they not have been better off saying the whole solar system was full of some sort of noxious gas that destroyed our spaceships and left it at that?

All just sounds a wee bit too farfetched and not thought out enough :rolleyes2:

The thing is, there has to be a grain of truth to some of those myths, I find it hard to believe that everything that has been recovered from the past is false.


I think there is more room for doubt about the existence of intelligent life on earth than that there is of a massive cover-up of the literal truth of the Voluspa or of Genesis.

I wouldn't go to say that I think the Voluspa and whatnot are the literal truth, but I doubt it is 100% false, otherwise what is the point of the effort put into preserving it? It's something that's withstood the test of time, this modern science is something that still needs to prove itself/test itself against time.

[Manifest Destiny]

that's why this is in the conspiracy section. :P

Granted. But, generally speaking, the point of a conspiracy is to cover up something that needs to be covered up (from the standpoint of the interests of the conspirators). What do you think is being covered up and why?

[Psychonaut]

My main point was how they automatically claim that Earth is the only life sustaining planet in the solar system, when they cannot accurately make that claim IMO because for all we know a different kind of life could exist where humans can not i.e. the extreme colds of the further most planets in the solar system or the extreme heats of those closer to the sun, and could breath the gases that are harmful to us. How do we know that what they observe with these probes, is what they tell us?

Take a look at just how extreme the conditions on the other planets are. Combine that with the fact that none of our probes have discovered even a microorganism on any of them.

On the flip side though, it is thought by more than a few scientists that beneath the ice sheet that is the surface of Jupiter's moon Europa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(moon)) there could be an ocean warm enough for life to have developed. We've yet to drill down there and see for ourselves, but it's certainly within the realm of possibility.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Europa-moon.jpg

[Barreldriver]

Granted. But, generally speaking, the point of a conspiracy is to cover up something that needs to be covered up (from the standpoint of the interests of the conspirators). What do you think is being covered up and why?

I would think that it's being covered up to force the majority into ignorance like in 1984, so much of today's world mirror's that book, and why would this subject be exempt where the rest of life is not?

[Barreldriver]

Take a look at just how extreme the conditions on the other planets are. Combine that with the fact that none of our probes have discovered even a microorganism on any of them.

On the flip side though, it is thought by more than a few scientists that beneath the ice sheet that is the surface of Jupiter's moon Europa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_(moon)) there could be an ocean warm enough for life to have developed. We've yet to drill down there and see for ourselves, but it's certainly within the realm of possibility.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/54/Europa-moon.jpg

I want to know what inspired our forefathers to create myths with 9 different worlds, each containing various life forms such as dwarves, elves, giants and etc... especially considering that for the longest time it was perceived that there were 9 planets in the solar system(that's being contested now is it not with the discovery of another small planet beyond pluto? http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2005/29jul_planetx.htm)

[Psychonaut]

I would think that it's being covered up to force the majority into ignorance like in 1984, so much of today's world mirror's that book, and why would this subject be exempt where the rest of life is not?

Here's a suggestion to cure your paranoia. Join the Navy like you're thinking about. Witness the ineptitude and general idiocy of the federal government firsthand. My experience has shown me that those who overestimate the power and influence of the government don't really have any personal experience with it. Our government is far too clumsy to pull off anything as grand as what you're suggesting.


I want to know what inspired our forefathers to create myths with 9 different worlds, each containing various life forms such as dwarves, elves, giants and etc... especially considering that for the longest time it was perceived that there were 9 planets in the solar system(that's being contested now is it not with the discovery of another small planet beyond pluto? http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2...ul_planetx.htm)

The mythic cosmology of our ancestors probably owes more to the specific combination of shamanic experiences viewed through the lens of IE languages than it does to any kind of astronomical observation.

[Loddfafner]

Scientists are very actively searching for life. They are especially hopeful wherever there is water hence their enthusiasm about Mars, Europa, and Titan. They examine meteorites looking for fossils and may, arguably, have found some. They examine radio signals from outer space hoping one turns out to be an effort to communicate or even just reruns of alien TV shows. Some germs in the upper atmosphere have been tested to see if maybe they have an extraterrestrial source.

Lately, they have been finding planets around other star and keep hoping one might be earthlike enough to sustain life as we know it. Most are too big or have such erratic orbits that their seasons would alternate between extremes of fire and ice.

Scientists are cautious about ruling out alternate explanations and want to be very, very sure that their hopes didn't lead them to imagine something that isn't there.

[Barreldriver]

The mythic cosmology of our ancestors probably owes more to the specific combination of shamanic experiences viewed through the lens of IE languages than it does to any kind of astronomical observation.

those shamanic experiences were oddly specific and able to mirror modern discoveries then. I find it hard to believe that all of it was just a big shamanic hallucination.

[Psychonaut]

those shamanic experiences were oddly specific and able to mirror modern discoveries then. I find it hard to believe that all of it was just a big shamanic hallucination.

In what way do they mirror scientific discoveries at all? Not one of the nine worlds really corresponds to any of our solar systems planets very well since none of them are inhabited...

[Barreldriver]

In what way do they mirror scientific discoveries at all? Not one of the nine worlds really corresponds to any of our solar systems planets very well since none of them are inhabited...

we don't know that yet, have we searched 100% of those planets? From what I'm aware of those probes only get a camera lense view, and only explore a small section of a planet in comparison to its whole.

[Skandi]

We have pretty much full coverage of the inner planets, certainly good enough to pick up a civilisation similar to our own, spectrum analysis has been searching for organic molecules in the atmosphere of other planets, so far we have drawn a blank.

[Barreldriver]

We have pretty much full coverage of the inner planets, certainly good enough to pick up a civilisation similar to our own, spectrum analysis has been searching for organic molecules in the atmosphere of other planets, so far we have drawn a blank.

Ah. Seems I've got some more reading to do. :( Ah well, I had hoped there was some truth to the mythos and that they weren't a complete hallucination on the part of some "shaman".

[Psychonaut]

we don't know that yet, have we searched 100% of those planets? From what I'm aware of those probes only get a camera lense view, and only explore a small section of a planet in comparison to its whole.

We've extensively mapped the surfaces of all of the inner planets and have found no signs of developed life. The probes we've sent have found no traces of microbial life either, which is a definite sign that larger scale life forms aren't hiding behind the rocks. Complex life cannot exist without microbial life. The gas giants have been mapped as well as the can, but since they don't really have solid surfaces, there probably aren't any Nordic looking halls floating about in the Jovian cyclones.


Ah. Seems I've got some more reading to do. Ah well, I had hoped there was some truth to the mythos and that they weren't a complete hallucination on the part of some "shaman".

Remember though, just because an event is internalized, it's value isn't negated. Many of the most valuable human experiences are entirely internal. The nine worlds tell us more about who we are than what the solar system is.

[Barreldriver]

Remember though, just because an event is internalized, it's value isn't negated. Many of the most valuable human experiences are entirely internal. The nine worlds tell us more about who we are than what the solar system is.

So it's all a metaphor? That sounds so boring and uninspiring.

[Psychonaut]

So it's all a metaphor? That sounds so boring and uninspiring.

I didn't say that. If you're truly interested in exploring the nine worlds, the techniques of the shamans are no big secret. Whether or not it's metaphorical, archetypal, literal, or something else can only be determined by he/she who experiences it.

[Barreldriver]

I didn't say that. If you're truly interested in exploring the nine worlds, the techniques of the shamans are no big secret. Whether or not it's metaphorical, archetypal, literal, or something else can only be determined by he/she who experiences it.

I have witnessed things that seem too real to be metaphors, but I want to know where they came from, and science cannot tell me that.

[Rudy]

The conspiracy of the space program is that it really isn't about searching for life on other planets, but the militarization of space. That is why it cost so much.

the Bush Administration in the United States has long made it clear that the US wishes to expand its military capabilities and have weapons in space and therfore also be dominant in this fourth military arena (the other three being sea, land and air).
http://www.globalissues.org/article/69/militarization-and-weaponization-of-outer-space

There have been other conspiracy theories saying they have pocketed most of the money for other projects, such as tunnels. A third variation is for battle with aliens.:rolleyes:

[Barreldriver]

The conspiracy of the space program is that it really isn't about searching for life on other planets, but the militarization of space. That is why it cost so much.

http://www.globalissues.org/article/69/militarization-and-weaponization-of-outer-space

There have been other conspiracy theories saying they have pocketed most of the money for other projects, such as tunnels. A third variation is for battle with aliens.:rolleyes:

Lol that's taking it farther than Reagan ever did lol. Reboot the "Star Wars" program while we're at it eh?

[Treffie]

Slightly off topic here, but this is the shape of the Universe, or so they say.

http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/PFO3047.jpg


Without the chocolatey bits, of course! :)

[Beorn]

On the flip side though, it is thought by more than a few scientists that beneath the ice sheet that is the surface of Jupiter's moon Europa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_%28moon%29) there could be an ocean warm enough for life to have developed. We've yet to drill down there and see for ourselves, but it's certainly within the realm of possibility.

Snowball Earth is the hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothesis) that the Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth) was entirely covered by ice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice) during parts of the Cryogenian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryogenian) period, from 790 to 630 (http://toolserver.org/%7Everisimilus/Timeline/Timeline.php?Ma=630) million years ago. It explains sedimentary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedimentary_rock) deposits generally regarded as of glacial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial) origin at tropical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropics) latitudes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latitude) and other enigmatic features of the Cryogenian geological record. The existence of a Snowball Earth remains controversial, and is contested by various scientists who dispute the geophysical feasibility of a completely frozen ocean, or the geological evidence on which the hypothesis is based.

Wikipedia:Snowball Earth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowball_Earth)


The Snowball Earth Theory (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2349)

[Barreldriver]

Slightly off topic here, but this is the shape of the Universe, or so they say.

http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/PFO3047.jpg


Without the chocolatey bits, of course! :)

The chocolaty bits would make it oh so more awesome! and on that note, I've been watching some docs on imagining the 10th dimension and if it's true, then the universe is a never ending series of infinite overlaps. For example, our universe is made up of 4 Dimensions the first dimension being a single point, then that point is connected to another point via a line, that equals the second dimension, the third dimension is our plane of existance, the fourth dimension is outer space and time, therefore outerspace is the time line of our universes existance, and it's possible that each object we see in space is just a different stage in the development and life of our own "galaxy" for example, we look out there in space and we see a galazy, a blob shape(ours is spiral), we look and we find a solar system with a few planets, and a sun, we look again and we find a galaxy with a large explosion in it's core, forms a black hole, begins to suck the galaxy into itself, it's no longer a blob shape but becomes a spiral galaxy(hint hint about ours eh?) and we look again and we find that same "solar system" as before mentioned and it's changed due to the change of the overall galaxy, and more planets are created more destroyed, eventually we can look at other galaxies and find different stages all leading up to our own current position. The doc explained that the fourth dimension is the time, and corresponds with space, this makes sense to me that the universe is just a timeline of different stages in the development of our own galaxy. Now our "universe/timeline" is confined in a single point, our universe, this is dimension five, this point is connected to another via a line, in other words our universe/dimension 5 is connected to another universe/dimension 5, and that series of connect the dots continues until you get back to all those connected lines and dots into a single point/dot, basically it's a series of things within things within things within itself, and they're all connected, a never ending process, the documentary only took it to dimension 10 for times sake.

[Ulf]

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr269/ulfgrimr/1229279168249.png

Space lizards are the only explanation.

[Eldritch]

BD, your original post was somewhat chaotic and I'm sure if I understood the gist of it properly. But some Earthly microbes could survive on Mars easily.

[Barreldriver]

BD, your original post was somewhat chaotic and I'm sure if I understood the gist of it properly. But some Earthly microbes could survive on Mars easily.

I had a bout of retardation when I wrote the OP, I have trouble organizing what's going on in my head.