Greece. Where did it go wrong ?

[The Lawspeaker]

Blaxis'.. err Absinthe's critical notes about her native city and her country made me think. What could be the reason that Greece, the cradle of European civilization, seems to become so backward- so fallen behind the rest of Europe (even though they have been part of the European Community and later on the European Union for many, many years).

Where did it go wrong ? Was it the Ottoman Turks... or had something gone wrong before that and is that "something" still playing a vital role in maintaining the relative backwardness and state of disorder- as well as the economic problems ? What is that proverbial yoke that seems to rest upon the shoulders of the heirs of Achilles, Leonidas and Pericles ? Not to mention Socrates, Plato, Aristotle and so, so many others..

[Loki]

http://www.white-history.com/hwr36iv.htm

;)

[The Lawspeaker]

I think that there should be more clear reasons ;) It's actually not just Greece (now that I think of it) but perhaps Italy and the other Mediterranean countries (for instance Italy and Portugal) as well. Spain is only since recently turning into a democracy with a modern economy.

I wonder what is causing it- and no I don't believe in the "negro blood" theory- there must be something more.

[Loki]

I wonder what is causing it- and no I don't believe in the "negro blood" theory- there must be something more.

I was only kidding of course. But at the same time, there is some truth in it. It is naive to think that today's Greeks are identical to the Greeks of 2,000 years ago. Similarly, today's Germans are very different from the ancient Germanic tribes who sacked Rome 2,000 years ago. And today's Egyptians are rather different from the ones who built the pyramids.

[Loddfafner]

Much as I would like to blame the demise of Greece to Ottoman administrative practices, the Turks specifically and Muslims more generally took many of their practices such as birkas, iconoclasm, and mosque architecture from Byzantium - which was a Greek empire based in Constantinople, now Istanbul.

So maybe Orthodox Christianity is to blame.

[Ulex]

...I don't believe in the "negro blood" theory- there must be something more.
Race is all. Disraeli

You may be searching for your answer in economic, cultural and political aspects, but all the traces will all lead to one, final answer: race.

If you don't like the word "race", you may explain it like this: The reasons for the collapse of any society lies in the concept of civilization. Before man adopted the ability to create civilizations, nature decided who was to live and who was to die. Weak genetics were destructed, and only the fittest would survive. But then man began to organize labour and defence in order to make his entire tribe survive. Big tribes are power. If you want to create a tribe, you will need a surplus of goods and food. This surplus will later be turned into culture and the ability to take care of your weak. A civilization is born.

Civilizations will always contradict the laws of nature. They are able to ensure the multiplying of weak genes, and they will always attract outside people, who would never be able to survive on their own. Any civilization can adopt an amount of weaks. The higher the level of civilization the more weak it can feed. But then it will reach the limit, and the surplus of goods needed to upkeep the civilization will vanish. Then the civilization collapses. It is, even if you don't like it, a question of race.

Civilizations will always selfdestruct, untill we discover a way to deal with the laws of nature.

[Gooding]

The Turks destroyed the native Greek government when they invaded and sacked Constantinople and their Islamic administration dominated the Balkans in general for the next millenium. I would put a large portion of responsibility for the current unhappy situation of the Greek government on Turkish shoulders.

[Rhobot]

I think the same is true of Mediterranean Europe in general, not only Greece but Iberia and central/southern Italy. Turkish rule in Greece and the declining importance of Italy (due to the growing importance of Atlantic commerce with the discovery of the Americas) played a big role.
On the other hand, Greece and southern Italy had been declining well before 1453 and 1492. I don't exactly know why this happened (it's complicated- there's not just one cause).*
However, I do not believe (as WN's often seem to) that their decline is due to "race-mixing" that made Greeks and southern Italians "genetically inferior" to Northern Europeans or their ancient ancestors (who, it is implicitly suggested, were more similar to northern Europeans.)

Spain and Portugal, on the other hand, declined more recently, after being overtaken by Northern Europe (France, Holland and England) in terms of overseas trade and colonization. Religion played a role, because the power of the Church prevented the Enlightenment and the Scientific Revolution from penetrating society very deeply. Another factor was a political and social system ("hidalguia") that prevented the formation of a middle class of merchants and skilled craftsmen like those of England and Holland.

*Toynbee suggested that the chronic problems of southern Italy go back to Hannibal's devastation of the region; some dependency theorists trace it even further, back to the Bronze Age when the Greeks began colonizing and exploiting the region for agriculture and raw materials.

[Gooding]

Subjugation by an alien power,economic and racial suppression, administrative corruption extending from a village effendi to the Sultan in Istanbul, all of these things can have local consequences that can outlive the original Empire by centuries. I think this story can be told by any nation that has been conquered by a larger neighbor.

[Absinthe]

Oh my...:o Well, I would love to talk about it but I spent the whole day discussing this issue extensively with a friend and my head still hurts from all the tension... :) So maybe I shall have to catch my breath and give my two cents when I'm a bit calmer? :p

[SwordoftheVistula]

I think the same is true of Mediterranean Europe in general, not only Greece but Iberia and central/southern Italy. Turkish rule in Greece and the declining importance of Italy (due to the growing importance of Atlantic commerce with the discovery of the Americas) played a big role.
On the other hand, Greece and southern Italy had been declining well before 1453 and 1492. I don't exactly know why this happened (it's complicated- there's not just one cause).*
However, I do not believe (as WN's often seem to) that their decline is due to "race-mixing" that made Greeks and southern Italians "genetically inferior" to Northern Europeans or their ancient ancestors (who, it is implicitly suggested, were more similar to northern Europeans.)

Spain and Portugal, on the other hand, declined more recently, after being overtaken by Northern Europe (France, Holland and England) in terms of overseas trade and colonization. Religion played a role, because the power of the Church prevented the Enlightenment and the Scientific Revolution from penetrating society very deeply. Another factor was a political and social system ("hidalguia") that prevented the formation of a middle class of merchants and skilled craftsmen like those of England and Holland.


I think that there should be more clear reasons ;) It's actually not just Greece (now that I think of it) but perhaps Italy and the other Mediterranean countries (for instance Italy and Portugal) as well. Spain is only since recently turning into a democracy with a modern economy.

I wonder what is causing it- and no I don't believe in the "negro blood" theory- there must be something more.

It seems the mediterranean countries have a greater tendency towards centralization and class stratification than north/west Europe. This may or may not be related to race and/or religion (I think it is), but centralized and class-stratified societies tend to exhibit (I would say cause) the problems we are talking about here.



*Toynbee suggested that the chronic problems of southern Italy go back to Hannibal's devastation of the region; some dependency theorists trace it even further, back to the Bronze Age when the Greeks began colonizing and exploiting the region for agriculture and raw materials.

These 'dependency theorists' have to be some of the most absurd characters ever produced by humanity. Didn't Rome also 'colonize and exploit' northern Europe? Why are Hong Kong, Singapore, and Ireland doing so well today when 100 years ago (or less) they were exploited colonies?

[Æmeric]

Hong Kong, Singapore & Ireland were "exploited" by the British. Some of the most prosperous countries in the world were once ruled by Britain, e.g. America, Canada, Australia. Zimbabwe & South Africa were the most prosperous nations in Africa (without oil), South Africa still is.

[Loki]

Zimbabwe & South Africa were the most prosperous nations in Africa (without oil), South Africa still is.

South African and Zimbabwe have vast mineral wealth. Gold, diamonds, platinum, uranium, and plenty of others. Greece has ... the tourism industry.

[Æmeric]

Mineral wealth does not always translate into national prosperity. Mexico for example. Zaire/Congo Republic or whatever the call it nowadays.

It seems a entrepreneurial/middleclass with a Calvinist work ethic seems vital to creating a prosperous economy. In Singapore or Hong Kong it could be that Calvinist doctrine (regarding wealth) is compatible with Confuciusism ?

[The Lawspeaker]

South African and Zimbabwe have vast mineral wealth. Gold, diamonds, platinum, uranium, and plenty of others. Greece has ... the tourism industry.
Greece has a great maritime history and thousands of islands and a good location: relatively close to the Suez Canal. I wonder what kept them from becoming a real naval power with a merchant fleet as influential as our own ?
They have a merchant fleet and plenty of harbors.. but what is keeping them ?

[SwordoftheVistula]

Greece has ... the tourism industry.

The question is, why don't they have a banking&finance industry, or at least some sort of manufacturing industry, or even, given their climate, a significant agribusiness export industry?


It seems a entrepreneurial/middleclass with a Calvinist work ethic seems vital to creating a prosperous economy. In Singapore or Hong Kong it could be that Calvinist doctrine (regarding wealth) is compatible with Confuciusism ?

Hong Kong and Singapore (and Ireland, Canada, US, Australia, New Zealand) were British colonies and adopted the Anglo-Saxon legal system including respect for private property and rights associated with ownership.

[The Lawspeaker]

The question is, why don't they have a banking&finance industry, or at least some sort of manufacturing industry, or even, given their climate, a significant agribusiness export industry?
Greece is troubled by her outdated farms, (http://www.nationsencyclopedia.com/Europe/Greece-AGRICULTURE.html) lack of proper investment, poor soil conditions and her mountains.
I wonder why the banking&finance industry and the manufacturing industry is so underdeveloped though.

[Loki]

I think a lot of it has to do with character. To be blunt, Greeks, Southern Italians and Portuguese are lazy. The thing they do best is have a corner shop, in which they can sit all day and hit the till. In contrast, the peoples further up north, like the Germans, are hard-working and industrious. Hence their wealth.

[SwordoftheVistula]

[FONT=Book Antiqua]Greece is troubled by her outdated farms lack of proper investment,


I wonder why the banking&finance industry and the manufacturing industry is so underdeveloped though.

Outdated systems, lack of proper investment.


I think a lot of it has to do with character. To be blunt, Greeks, Southern Italians and Portuguese are lazy. The thing they do best is have a corner shop, in which they can sit all day and hit the till. In contrast, the peoples further up north, like the Germans, are hard-working and industrious. Hence their wealth.

Yes. There are of course some industrious and hard-working southern Europeans, and they do quite well in systems dominated by northern Europeans. For the most part, the legal and political system in southern Europe (and parts of the US dominated by southern Europeans) tends towards laziness, meaning that sloth is not punished and hard work and industriousness is not rewarded (heavily taxed and regulated). In addition to the 'easiness' of running a corner shop, it is easy to conceal income and do other tricks to dodge taxes and regulation from the state.

[Thorum]

Quite a difference of opinions, So, I will throw in my deep and insightful logic and answer the question.

Islam.

[Absinthe]

Islam? :eek:

I was going to be laconic and reply in the same manner "Christianity".

I believe Christianity was the most devastating blow that Hellenism ever received, killing the Hellenic spirit and turning the land into a multicultural empire (Byzantium) bringing foreign influences and held together by religion. I cannot even begin to tell you how much damage was made to the spirit of Classical Greece by the Christians, the 400 years of Turkish occupation hardly measure up to that damage.

In fact, as far as I am concerned, the Turks were only beating a dead horse.

But what do you mean by Islam? You mean the Turkish occupation? Or did the Greeks massively convert to Islam at some point, and I am unaware of it? :D

[Thorum]

Islam? :eek:

I believe Christianity was the most devastating blow that Hellenism ever received, killing the Hellenic spirit and turning the land into a multicultural empire (Byzantium) bringing foreign influences and held together by religion. I cannot even begin to tell you how much damage was made to the spirit of Classical Greece by the Christians, the 400 years of Turkish occupation hardly measure up to that damage.

Sorry, Absinthe. I love to blame all the problems of the world on Islam (and religion in general, so maybe I wasn't that far off). Actually, I was baiting you because I really wanted to hear your take on things. ;)

I must say, your quote above, I believe, is the exact reason for the decline, etc. I think you have really hit the essence of it. I can't add any more...You got it. :thumbs up

[Absinthe]

I think a lot of it has to do with character. To be blunt, Greeks, Southern Italians and Portuguese are lazy. The thing they do best is have a corner shop, in which they can sit all day and hit the till. In contrast, the peoples further up north, like the Germans, are hard-working and industrious. Hence their wealth.
Brodir Loke, I have pondered on this question and I think that my studies in Psychology have given me great insight on the collective nouveau-greque mind. ;)

You see, what bugged me was the fact that Greeks living abroad are known to be rather hard-working and frequently productive and innovative. As for greek scientists, they rank among the top positions in American Universities.

So...I decided to meditate on the question "why are Greeks living in Greece, lazy" and after a lot of thinking and talking around I came up with the followin answer:

Greeks are not inherently lazy.

In fact, what appears to you as laziness is not actually laziness. It's egotism. :p

I once heard a saying "Asians have too many soldiers, Greeks have too many generals" :D

The average Greek will take the above as a compliment, but I can see the tragedy in the above...

Every Greek wants to be the One. The greek refuses to take orders, to follow suggestions, to cooperate for a good cause, to follow the rules and to respect authority.

No, no, no. Because he is the king, he is the center of the Universe, he knows everything and he doesn't need to be taught anything because he knows everything already :D

The Greek wants to be his own boss, and by that token ("better reign in Hell than serve in Heaven" :D), he prefers to run his own corner shop even if he doesn't make enough money or find excitement in that job, than make more money and feel more productive, working for someone else. ;)

So the lack of industriousness is not due to laziness but due to total lack of team spirit, as well as the inability to think outside their own box and put the wellfare of the community first.

[RoyBatty]

Every Greek wants to be the One. The greek refuses to take orders, to follow suggestions, to cooperate for a good cause, to follow the rules and to respect authority.

No, no, no. Because he is the king, he is the center of the Universe, he knows everything and he doesn't need to be taught anything because he knows everything already :D

The Greek wants to be his own boss, and by that token ("better reign in Hell than serve in Heaven" :D), he prefers to run his own corner shop even if he doesn't make enough money or find excitement in that job, than make more money and feel more productive, working for someone else. ;)


That's a very interesting observation BA... oops, Ab :P

I think that the Russians suffer from a similar condition. There may be some truth in the saying that both Russia and Greece are nations of Anarchists. :D

There are some interesting statements on the Greeks attributed to Kissinger (I believe he denies making them, not that his "word" is worth anything but anyway...).

Greeks are a nation that is very difficult to control. So, we should deeply hit their cultural rootes. Maybe then they will be more careful. I mean to assail their language, their religion, their intellectuall and historical reserves. We should eliminate every ability of them to evolve, to distinguish and to prevail, so that they don't harass us in the Balkans, the Eastern Mediterranean and the Middle East, which is a neuralgic region of strategical importance for the U.S.A

Of course this goes way beyond a national character description and explains to some extent what the USA, Germany and the Vatican's policies for Yugoslavia (the bombing of Serbia, grabbing Kosovo) and Greece were and are all about.

[SwordoftheVistula]

"Christianity".

I believe Christianity was the most devastating blow that Hellenism ever received, killing the Hellenic spirit and turning the land into a multicultural empire (Byzantium) bringing foreign influences and held together by religion. I cannot even begin to tell you how much damage was made to the spirit of Classical Greece by the Christians, the 400 years of Turkish occupation hardly measure up to that damage.


I think that the Russians suffer from a similar condition.

If it is anything to do with Christianity, it has to do with the Orthodox variety specifically. There may be something to this, as all the Orthodox countries are in a similar situation. I don't know enough about Orthodox to know what this might specifically be.



Every Greek wants to be the One. The greek refuses to take orders, to follow suggestions, to cooperate for a good cause, to follow the rules and to respect authority...Every Greek wants to be the One. The greek refuses to take orders, to follow suggestions, to cooperate for a good cause, to follow the rules and to respect authority...So the lack of industriousness is not due to laziness but due to total lack of team spirit, as well as the inability to think outside their own box and put the wellfare of the community first.


There may be some truth in the saying that both Russia and Greece are nations of Anarchists.

The thing is though, that Greece and Russia (and the other balkan countries) have more centralized governments and less individual rights than the rest of Europe. The economies are more socialist than the rest of Europe, and they aren't exactly known for being bastions of civil liberties.

[Skandi]

So the lack of industriousness is not due to laziness but due to total lack of team spirit, as well as the inability to think outside their own box and put the wellfare of the community first.

What a damning thing to say if the welfare o fthe comunity is not catered for then none will ultimately survive. (Do they lookafter their families more to counterbalance?), How did the ancient Greeks manage? How were they different from those that live there today, or maybe there was no difference just harsher punishments and stronger leaders?

[Absinthe]

(Do they lookafter their families more to counterbalance?)

The family in Greece is a dubious concept, one can say that family ties are stronger than in the rest of Europe, but in reality, I believe this not to be true.

How are you "looking after your family" if you're 30+ and still leeching on your parents? How are you helping them by living in their house forever, eating off their table and having your mother as a house maid?

Many Greeks would claim that the opposite is also the case, that many of those who live with the parents, help support their homes by contributing financially and by helping in household maintenance.

I can say that this may me be an exception (still unhealthy if you ask me), but in my whole life I have not encountered a single Greek that lives with parents and is actually helping them (and not the other way around).

Im 99% of the cases, the greek adult is treated like a child, pampered by the mother and receiving financial aid by the father, so that s/he can drive fancy sports and dress expensively, even if he can't afford to live on his/her own. :rolleyes2:


How did the ancient Greeks manage?


How were they different from those that live there today


or maybe there was no difference just harsher punishments and stronger leaders?

You kind of answered your own questions...

We have no means of knowing whether they were the exact same people, but we do know from historical and archeological evidence, that behind every era of prosperity, stricter social rules and laws where applied, as well as some sort of a 'caste' system (slaves included).

I am not in favor of slavery, but I am in favor of some sort of a caste system where everyone should have their place in society and work towards common welfare.

The aforementioned problem with Greeks today arises from the lack of such a class system, and today everyone wants one's 15 minutes of fame (and gets it).
Too much individualism, liberty and 'democracy', if you ask me.

[Jamt]

Every Greek wants to be the One. The greek refuses to take orders, to follow suggestions, to cooperate for a good cause, to follow the rules and to respect authority.



I like that attitude a lot. Northerners has become to civilized and cooperative for our one good. When the big collapse is unfolding the average Greek will survive better with his small scale farm, his corner shop and attitude. In Northern societies everything is so complex and conflict averse that a lot of people will be unable to fend for them self and will probably resort to cannibalism.

[lei.talk]

It's egotism. :p

I once heard a saying "Asians have too many soldiers, Greeks have too many generals" :D

The average Greek will take the above as a compliment, but I can see the tragedy in the above...

Every Greek wants to be the One. The greek refuses to take orders, to follow suggestions, to cooperate for a good cause, to follow the rules and to respect authority.

No, no, no. Because he is the king, he is the center of the Universe, he knows everything and he doesn't need to be taught anything because he knows everything already :D

The Greek wants to be his own boss, and by that token ("better reign in Hell than serve in Heaven" :D), he prefers to run his own corner shop even if he doesn't make enough money or find excitement in that job, than make more money and feel more productive, working for someone else. ;)when and where i was a child,
"Who do you work for?"
was an insult.

the obvious implication being
that the quiried was so disgenic/uneducated
as to be dependent on wage-slavery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery)
and the concomitant plebianisms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses).

[Absinthe]

when and where i was a child,
"Who do you work for?"
was an insult.

the obvious implication being
that the quiried was so disgenic/uneducated
as to be dependent on wage-slavery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery)
and the concomitant plebianisms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses).


That's the spirit! :p Perhaps you're read too much greek philosophy? :thumbs

[Brynhild]

It's funny, but I believe the modern day Greeks are really no different from any self-respecting small business owner - they're proud enough and smart enough to take care of their own. In order be successful, you have to be an arsehole sometimes, so that you're not taken advantage of. It may be wrong and egotistical for a region like Europe, and they may appear to be selfish for not being community minded enough, but ultimately they will survive when everything else and everyone else crashes around them.

The Greek migrants in Australia are hard-working and well off. They are very family oriented (although I've seen plenty of Greek men who are forever tied to their mother's apron strings even when they're married) but quite insular within the community structure.

I can certainly relate to wanting to be the one - being a small business owner myself. I don't take kindly to following orders, not from looking after my own for so long. I know I'm not Greek but it may well be the Mediterranean attitude on the whole - I can only speculate on this, but I haven't quite worked out where that particular attitude of mine comes from. :p

[Diabloblanco14]

http://www.white-history.com/hwr36iv.htm

;)

That link from the Nerdicist Arthur Kempowitz cuntains sume of the most vile and dissgusting anti-Med prupaganda I've ever seen. Tudays, Greeks are every bit as White and if not Whiter then the Greeks during the days of Plato, Aristotles, and Socrates! I've yet to see one non-White greek in all of my life! Hell, I'm even more Nordick then Kemp is!

Kemp and his kind just hate us

Portugal
Italy
G]reece
Spain

[Æmeric]

Your spelling & grammar is atrocious. I suggest you check out an adult literacy program in northern New Jersey, there should be several. Your type of problem is common in areas with Elizabeth's demographic makeup.:wink

[Diabloblanco14]

Your spelling & grammar is atrocious. I suggest you check out an adult literacy program in northern New Jersey, there should be several. Your type of problem is common in areas with Elizabeth's demographic makeup.:wink

Grahmer is for lozers!

[Gooding]

Grahmer is for lozers!

And losers are for the Middle East! :P

[Bloodeagle]

Greece's golden age ended with the Peloponnesian War!
This weakness accepted the invasion of the Romans, the church and the Turks.

[Lulletje Rozewater]

http://www.jstor.org/pss/627042

Here may be some pointers

[Svarog]

I don't see anything wrong with Greece, actually, I find it more joyable place than many I have visited, as the cradle of European civilization indeed Greece had some serious downfalls during the years and country is full of problems, huge immigration rate as the most serious one, Albanians smuggled in boxes over the mountains, making a nice business ground out of Greek streets, such is prostitution and weapon/drugs smuggling etc

But these are my experiences from Greece, people are incredibly nice and courteous, as long as you do not mention Turks to them, how sick it gets says my mother's experience who was literally thrown out of a fancy coffee place after ordering a Black 'Turkish' Coffee. Most of the Greeks I met are quite nationalistic and proud of their ancestry, ready to stand their ground and beat your ass for the smallest insult on what is theirs, only similar thing you can experience in Serbia or a Croatia, on each house in one smaller place on my way to Meteory Monasteries there is a Greek flag flied on a spear, and in every Greek listening to his/hers stories you will actually feel their pride of being Greek, from their stories about their country, it is funny, I was talking to one Greek in particular, my friend I met over an online forum, you can actually see his love for his country in his eyes while talking about it and then mention Albanians, Turks or Skopians and it instantly turns to hatred, incredible :D

They hold their religion REALLY high and even me who is highly against any form of organized religions and hate Christianity have a respect for something they hold so dear, after all, that IS the part of their ancestry, and culture, and one thing that actually help their people during the Ottoman invasions

Athens, looked rather descent to me, beside terrible traffic but I guess every huge town is like that, Athens is one of the most beautiful places in the world, tho, I gotta say, Thessaloniki is the most beautiful town I ever saw, just feel the town and it's history, no, visit Greece first, and then ask yourself is there anything wrong with that place, a hint, do not try to insult them, they will kick your ass :D

btw, taking white history . com too seriously won't lead you anywhere good.

[Tabiti]

Not only Greece has such problems nowadays...
It's called Balkan syndrome, something highly infectious and lethal (much more lethal than swine flu, for instance...) with no treatment or vaccine against! Even if you don't get infected you could die of the deep depression it leads to...

[lei.talk]

That's the spirit (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=34668#post34668)! :p Perhaps you're read too much greek philosophy? :thumbsthose basics (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=34319#post34319) have greater utility in one's life
than any "advanced" schools of thought
that babble non-sense (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies)
and have no referents in reality.

"advanced" philosophies have not surpassed
these concepts: phronesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phronesis), eudaimonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudaimonia), arête (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arete).

[HellLander87]

Did it really went wron? Here is the answer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvl9N9GdraQ

[Acquisitor]

Blaxis'.. err Absinthe's critical notes about her native city and her country made me think. What could be the reason that Greece, the cradle of European civilization, seems to become so backward- so fallen behind the rest of Europe (even though they have been part of the European Community and later on the European Union for many, many years).

Where did it go wrong ? Was it the Ottoman Turks... or had something gone wrong before that and is that "something" still playing a vital role in maintaining the relative backwardness and state of disorder- as well as the economic problems ? What is that proverbial yoke that seems to rest upon the shoulders of the heirs of Achilles, Leonidas and Pericles ? Not to mention Socrates, Plato, Aristotle and so, so many others..

they say on Wall Street "past stock performance does not guarantee future results". It means that a once successful company is absolutely not guaranteed to be successful in the future.

Greece has not performed for thousands of years now, and drawing the lines between ancient and modern Greeks is useless.

the country is a pathetic failure, and is likely to remain that for much longer, if not forever.

[Scholarios]

they say on Wall Street "past stock performance does not guarantee future results". It means that a once successful company is absolutely not guaranteed to be successful in the future.

Greece has not performed for thousands of years now, and drawing the lines between ancient and modern Greeks is useless.

the country is a pathetic failure, and is likely to remain that for much longer, if not forever.

Greece was not a failure in the post-war years.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Greece_GDP_growth_1961-2010.svg

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Greece didn't get nearly bombed out of existence.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Greece didn't get nearly bombed out of existence.

The infrastructure was destroyed by the German invasion though. The worse part is that Greece payed a heavy price for refusing to subjugate, and in the end the human losses were huge and the Greeks themselves were destroying the Greek infrastructure in order to prevent the Germans from using it.

Finally, Greece didn't stop fighting at 1945. The Greek civil war kept going for another 4 years until 1949, and it cased more property damage than the WWII itself...