Some arguments against the Critical Race Theory

[Supercomputer]

I'm just going to focus on small part of the CRT, which I think is the most important and which bother me the most.

CRT is among other things based on the following premises:
- That Whiteness is artificial
- That Whiteness is oppressive
So in short, they say it's an artificial idea that oppresses people. Those premises are the main reason why increasing number of intellectuals today buy into the idea that so called "Whiteness" should be abolished
So, to intellectually defeat it, you need to show people it's main premises are wrong mainly that Whiteness ISN'T artificial and that it ISN'T oppressive.

1.)Show them that "Whiteness" is NOT an artificial construct
- Europeans form a distinct genetic cluster separate from Middle Eastern and North African people. Greeks are closer to the French than to Turks, Portuguese are closer to Scandinavians than to Northwest Africans and Russians are closer to the British than to Central Asians. There is also a common European culture and history going back to Greece and Rome as well as common religion.

- Remind them that "Whiteness" would exist even if there was no slavery or colonialism. One of the most annoying ideas floating in the left wing circles is this idea that "race and White people was/were invented in order to justify slavery and colonialism. This is demonstrably false. Even if Europeans never settled in the New World, never practised slavery and always minded their own business, as the world eventually became globalized, so called Whiteness or some level of pan European identity would sooner or later emerge at least to some extent. A British person would still look at a Dutchman and clearly see he is more similar to him both physically as well as culturally than someone from Korea, Nigeria or the Americas.

2.) Debunk the idea that Whiteness is oppressive
Remind them that:
- Colonialism was universal to all parts of the world and had nothing to do with race.
- Europe was victim of colonialism as much as it was the perpetrator
- Slavery was universal to everyone and had nothing to do with race
- Europeans were the victims of non White slavery

3.) Remind them that Whites are the least racist race in the world.
Show them that Whites treat racial minorities better than anyone else. Whites will not only allow large burdensome racial minorities to live in their countries, they will actually give them privileges like Affirmative action and it's European equivalents as well as diversity quotas. But not only that; they will go a step further and demonize themselves and teach totally one sided, exaggerated and de-contextualized narratives of history just to attempt to minimize the natural resentment against minorities that live in their countries at their expense. Chinese would never do that. Arabs would never do that. Indians would never do that. Only White people. Yet how are they thanked? By being demonized and attacked as the only perpetrators of racism.

3. Show them that race is NOT just a social construct

The idea that race is just a social construct stems from several logical fallacies namely the continuum fallacy as well as deconstructionist fallacy. If race is a social construct then so are colors. You can philosophically deconstruct any concept you want. A species could also be seen as a social construct. So can a chair.

4. Remind them that racism would exist even if there would be no White people. Leftists believe racism is the greatest evil in the world. Because of very one sided narratives of history the first association of "racism" is racism of Whites against Blacks or non Whites. However racism ie tribalism is universal to all human races and even if White people were truly bread out of existence, racism would still exist. For example the only reason tensions between Blacks and Hispanics in the United States aren't higher is because they both still politically align under the same ideology against White people.

5. And finally even if Whiteness was really artificial and it really oppressed people (which it isn't and it doesn't) the solution would not be to abolish White people. The solution would be just to leave White people alone and live in countries where White people can't oppress you. Separation is not oppression. In fact, separation is the opposite of oppression. (All groups that were oppressed throughout history sought secession from their oppressors). Take Japaneseness for example. Is it a social construct? Yes (all ethnic groups are social constructs) Has it historically oppressed people? Yes. Does it oppress people today? Yes. There are Koreans and Chinese living in Japan and they are discriminated against by Japanese. Yet does anyone push for so called Japaneseness to be abolished? No. If you don't want to be oppressed by Japanese, don't live in Japan. The same with so called Whiteness. If you don't want to be "oppressed" by Whites, don't live among Whites.

[Komintasavalta]

- Colonialism was universal to all parts of the world and had nothing to do with race.

So the reason why Japan was never colonized has nothing to do with how the Japanese have higher genotypic intelligence than SSAs.


- Europeans form a distinct genetic cluster separate from Middle Eastern and North African people. Greeks are closer to the French than to Turks, Portuguese are closer to Scandinavians than to Northwest Africans and Russians are closer to the British than to Central Asians.

What if you count North Caucasians as European but not other Caucasians? Then there is no clear boundary between them.

There is also no clear boundary between Europeans and Siberians.

In the ADMIXTURE analysis from Tambets et al. 2018, different Mansi samples ranged from about 10% Siberian to about 60% Siberian (https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-018-1522-1/figures/3). Some groups of Southern Mansi have much lower FST distance to Russians than to other Mansi (https://indo-european.eu/2019/04/r1a-z280-and-r1a-z93-shared-by-ancient-ugric-populations-n1c-tat-expanded-with-micro-altaic/). The linguistic ancestors of Mansi and Khanty are thought to have migrated from Europe to Siberia in the first milennium, and there are toponyms attributed to Mansi as far west as Arkhangelsk Oblast.

Komis live in both Europe and Siberia, and some Siberian Komis on Taimyr Peninsula who are mixed with Samoyeds look predominantly Siberian (https://www.arcticphoto.com/supergal/ry/ry27/ry2703-18.htm).

In Western Nenetsia, there are Kolvin Nenetses, who are Komified Nenetses who call themselves Komi and who wear Komi clothes, but some of them look more Komi than Nenets, and some can easily pass as ethnic Russians. Should they be called European or Siberian? One name for them (Kolvin Nenets) is based on a predominantly Siberian ethnicity but another name (Komi) is based on a predominantly European ethnicity. Some Kolvin Nenetses live in the town of Nes' which is closer to Finland than to Siberia.

Bashkirs also live on both the European and Asian side of the Urals, and even parts of Bashkortostan are east of the Urals. Jeong et. al. 2019 included samples of Northern Bashkirs, who have about 25% Mongoloid ancestry, and Southern Bashkirs, who have around 40% Mongoloid ancestry (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6542712/figure/F5/). Northern Bashkir might actually be less Mongoloid on average than Maris. So if Maris are counted as European, are Northern Bashkirs too? Parts of northwestern Bashkortostan are even predominantly Mari.

The 1240K+HO dataset has Nogai samples from three locations: Nogai_Astrakhan had 53% of a Mongoloid component in my global K=3 ADMIXTURE run, Nogai_Stavropol had 47%, and Nogai_Karachay_Cherkessia had only 26%. Should the Nogays from Karachay-Cherkessia counted as European because they are mixed with Caucasians? If not, and if they are less Mongoloid than Maris, should Maris not be counted as European either?


Greeks are closer to the French than to Turks [...] Russians are closer to the British than to Central Asians

Based on F2 distances between populations in the 1240K+HO dataset, the population labeled Greek is closer to the population labeled Turkish than to the population labeled French.

The population labeled Russian_Arkhangelsk_Leshukonsky is almost as close to the population labeled Tajik as to the population labeled Scottish, so it might be closer to some subpopulations of Tajiks. (However based on FST, Russian_Arkhangelsk_Leshukonsky was closer to Tajik (.0166) than to Scottish (.0174).) Also other Northeastern Europeans are clearly closer to Central Asians than to Northwestern Europeans, or for example Udmurts are closer to Tajiks, Uzbeks, and Turkmens than to British people.

https://i.ibb.co/vXG4pN6/a.png

In G25, Greeks, Turks, and the French are all divided into multiple subpopulations. But using the average coordinates of the subpopulations, Greeks are closer to Turks than to the French:


$ curl 'https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1wZr-UOve0KUKo_Qbgeo27m-CQncZWb8y' -Lso mas
$ tav()(awk '{n[$1]++;for(i=2;i<=NF;i++){a[$1][i]+=$i}}END{for(i in a){o=i;for(j=2;j<=NF;j++)o=o FS sprintf("%f",a[i][j]/n[i]);print o}}' "FS=${1-$'\t'}")
$ for x in French Greek Turkish;do grep ^$x mas|sed 's/_[^,]*/_average/'|tav ,;done>>mas
$ dist()(awk -F, 'NR==FNR{for(i=2;i<=NF;i++)a[i]=$i;next}$1{s=0;for(i=2;i<=NF;i++)s+=($i-a[i])^2;print s^.5,$1}' "$2" "$1"|sort -n|awk '{printf"%."x"f %s\n",$1,$2}' "x=${3-3}"|sed s,^0,,)
$ dist mas <(grep Greek_average mas)|grep average
.000 Greek_average
.072 Turkish_average
.100 French_average

[ManVsBear]

the argument for race being a construct that I hear from people is usually that wherever you draw the line for a race to exist is arbitrary. We can put Germanic people and slavic people into separate races, but some people put them in the same white race. We can put Arabs and germans into one caucasian race or we can separate them into Semitic/germanic races or separate them into MENA and european races. How do we know which one is valid?

And can you show some evidence for some of your assertions, like "Europeans form a distinct genetic cluster separate from Middle Eastern and North African people" and "Greeks are closer to the French than to Turks"


http://www.humanbiologicaldiversity.com/Photos/GeneticsOfRace.jpg
Not sure if this illustration is legitimate or not, as the title seems to indicate there is a bias in favor of race being real, but regardless I don't see how west asia is distinct from europe here.

[Supercomputer]

So the reason why Japan was never colonized has nothing to do with how the Japanese have higher genotypic intelligence than SSAs.



What if you count North Caucasians as European but not other Caucasians? Then there is no clear boundary between them.

There is also no clear boundary between Europeans and Siberians.

In the ADMIXTURE analysis from Tambets et al. 2018, different Mansi samples ranged from about 10% Siberian to about 60% Siberian (https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-018-1522-1/figures/3). Some groups of Southern Mansi have much lower FST distance to Russians than to other Mansi (https://indo-european.eu/2019/04/r1a-z280-and-r1a-z93-shared-by-ancient-ugric-populations-n1c-tat-expanded-with-micro-altaic/). The linguistic ancestors of Mansi and Khanty are thought to have migrated from Europe to Siberia in the first milennium, and there are toponyms attributed to Mansi as far west as Arkhangelsk Oblast.

Komis live in both Europe and Siberia, and some Siberian Komis on Taimyr Peninsula who are mixed with Samoyeds look predominantly Siberian (https://www.arcticphoto.com/supergal/ry/ry27/ry2703-18.htm).

In Western Nenetsia, there are Kolvin Nenetses, who are Komified Nenetses who call themselves Komi and who wear Komi clothes, but some of them look more Komi than Nenets, and some can easily pass as ethnic Russians. Should they be called European or Siberian? One name for them (Kolvin Nenets) is based on a predominantly Siberian ethnicity but another name (Komi) is based on a predominantly European ethnicity. Some Kolvin Nenetses live in the town of Nes' which is closer to Finland than to Siberia.

Bashkirs also live on both the European and Asian side of the Urals, and even parts of Bashkortostan are east of the Urals. Jeong et. al. 2019 included samples of Northern Bashkirs, who have about 25% Mongoloid ancestry, and Southern Bashkirs, who have around 40% Mongoloid ancestry (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6542712/figure/F5/). Northern Bashkir might actually be less Mongoloid on average than Maris. So if Maris are counted as European, are Northern Bashkirs too? Parts of northwestern Bashkortostan are even predominantly Mari.

The 1240K+HO dataset has Nogai samples from three locations: Nogai_Astrakhan had 53% of a Mongoloid component in my global K=3 ADMIXTURE run, Nogai_Stavropol had 47%, and Nogai_Karachay_Cherkessia had only 26%. Should the Nogays from Karachay-Cherkessia counted as European because they are mixed with Caucasians? If not, and if they are less Mongoloid than Maris, should Maris not be counted as European either?



Based on F2 distances between populations in the 1240K+HO dataset, the population labeled Greek is closer to the population labeled Turkish than to the population labeled French.

The population labeled Russian_Arkhangelsk_Leshukonsky is almost as close to the population labeled Tajik as to the population labeled Scottish, so it might be closer to some subpopulations of Tajiks. (However based on FST, Russian_Arkhangelsk_Leshukonsky was closer to Tajik (.0166) than to Scottish (.0174).) Also other Northeastern Europeans are clearly closer to Central Asians than to Northwestern Europeans, or for example Udmurts are closer to Tajiks, Uzbeks, and Turkmens than to British people.

https://i.ibb.co/vXG4pN6/a.png

In G25, Greeks, Turks, and the French are all divided into multiple subpopulations. But using the average coordinates of the subpopulations, Greeks are closer to Turks than to the French:


$ curl 'https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1wZr-UOve0KUKo_Qbgeo27m-CQncZWb8y' -Lso mas
$ tav()(awk '{n[$1]++;for(i=2;i<=NF;i++){a[$1][i]+=$i}}END{for(i in a){o=i;for(j=2;j<=NF;j++)o=o FS sprintf("%f",a[i][j]/n[i]);print o}}' "FS=${1-$'\t'}")
$ for x in French Greek Turkish;do grep ^$x mas|sed 's/_[^,]*/_average/'|tav ,;done>>mas
$ dist()(awk -F, 'NR==FNR{for(i=2;i<=NF;i++)a[i]=$i;next}$1{s=0;for(i=2;i<=NF;i++)s+=($i-a[i])^2;print s^.5,$1}' "$2" "$1"|sort -n|awk '{printf"%."x"f %s\n",$1,$2}' "x=${3-3}"|sed s,^0,,)
$ dist mas <(grep Greek_average mas)|grep average
.000 Greek_average
.072 Turkish_average
.100 French_average

I based my ethnic distance claims on this very famous PCA

https://i.postimg.cc/3RzWWyzw/OrjiL9c.png (https://postimages.org/)

Siberians aren't an important population in my opinion. What matters more is that Europeans for the most part aren't strongly connected to MENAS

[Supercomputer]

the argument for race being a construct that I hear from people is usually that wherever you draw the line for a race to exist is arbitrary. We can put Germanic people and slavic people into separate races, but some people put them in the same white race. We can put Arabs and germans into one caucasian race or we can separate them into Semitic/germanic races or separate them into MENA and european races. How do we know which one is valid?

And can you show some evidence for some of your assertions, like "Europeans form a distinct genetic cluster separate from Middle Eastern and North African people" and "Greeks are closer to the French than to Turks"


http://www.humanbiologicaldiversity.com/Photos/GeneticsOfRace.jpg
Not sure if this illustration is legitimate or not, as the title seems to indicate there is a bias in favor of race being real, but regardless I don't see how west asia is distinct from europe here.

As all PCA maps show the racial genetic spectrum comes in clusters and is not smooth. There are larger drops along the way, so it's not totally arbitrarily.

All these 4 PCS's show Greeks being about equidistant between French and Turks. Maybe I should have said equally distant rather than closer, but my point stands. Greeks are not as close to the Turks relative to how close they are geographically

https://i.postimg.cc/ZR6g12P5/676547.png (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/FsrqBPYh/8437291103-92212c88bf-o.png (https://postimg.cc/3WqnyFjq)you re beautiful poems (https://poemsonly.com/poem/655)

https://i.postimg.cc/NM8JNTYy/e3ab3429a5f8ea7188ddb4aac4bdacb6-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/zbBFvyy5)

https://i.postimg.cc/m2nwyVMX/genetic-map-of-europe.png (https://postimg.cc/zVnKJCxK)

As for your map, it clearly shows Europeans being a separate cluster as West Asia (just as my maps which are more detailed showing specific ethnic groups.)

[reboun]

Estimating or comparing distances by just looking a PCA graph is one of the most common mistakes. You reduce 15 components into 2 dimensions and there would certainly be some mistakes when trying to estimate distance only via PCA.

Central Greeks are significantly closer to Turks than they are to French.

Distance to: Central_Greek
20.27497226 Turkish
32.38777856 French

If you wish, you can also calculate via http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/k15-vahaduo_original.htm

[Supercomputer]

Estimating or comparing distances by just looking a PCA graph is one of the most common mistakes. You reduce 15 components into 2 dimensions and there would certainly be some mistakes when trying to estimate distance only via PCA.

Central Greeks are significantly closer to Turks than they are to French.

Distance to: Central_Greek
20.27497226 Turkish
32.38777856 French

If you wish, you can also calculate via http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/k15-vahaduo_original.htm

Go back to Turkey

[Hektor12]

With this topic you just revealed that youre Greek. And Greeks are MMMMUUUUCCCCHHHH closer to jews than both French and Turks, almost indistinguishable.

[reboun]

Go back to Turkey

Cry me a river…

[Supercomputer]

With this topic you just revealed that youre Greek. And Greeks are MMMMUUUUCCCCHHHH closer to jews than both French and Turks, almost indistinguishable.

I'm not Greek. They're close to Jews, but not close to Turks.

[Komintasavalta]

Some of the previous plots in this thread are missing many transitional populations like Maltese, Balkan Turks, Bashkirs, Nogais, Southern Mansi, Siberian Komis, and European Nenetses.

Here's another plot where you can see how Bashkirs overlap with Siberians, Nogais overlap with Central Asians, and North Caucasians overlap with Turks. Also Maltese overlap with Cypriots, Turkish Jews, Lebanese Christians, and Druze. It's still missing Nenetses and Siberian Komis though.

https://i.ibb.co/xq6ynnp/smartpca-europe.png


All these 4 PCS's show Greeks being about equidistant between French and Turks. Maybe I should have said equally distant rather than closer, but my point stands. Greeks are not as close to the Turks relative to how close they are geographically

The distance from Helsinki to Dushanbe (capital of Tajikstan) is about 3,900 km, and the distance from Helsinki to Malta is about 2,800 km. But Finns are closer to Tajiks than Maltese based on F2 distances between samples in the 1240K+HO dataset. Therefore Finns must be Central Asian.

[Grace O'Malley]

It is all based on geography to a large extent what populations are closest to each other and I agree that "white" is a very ambiguous term. Just use European for people that have long term ancestry from Europe. It is a geographic category because not all Europeans are close genetic-wise in that Finns are European and so are Greeks but they are quite distant from each other and some Europeans are closer to non-European populations than they they are to some Europeans that are further away from them geographically. I do understand the concept behind it. The way populations look is also gradual differences with people looking more dissimilar the further they are geographically from each other so all populations are on a cline with some exceptions I'm sure.

When you look at it Europe and Asia are one landmass.

If a European population is next to an Asian population do they feel closer to the neighbouring country over some European population that is on the other side of Europe? They could depend on the individual but why? That is an interesting topic but on here it might be opening a can of worms. :)

[Supercomputer]

Some of the previous plots in this thread are missing many transitional populations like Maltese, Balkan Turks, Bashkirs, Nogais, Southern Mansi, Siberian Komis, and European Nenetses.

Here's another plot where you can see how Bashkirs overlap with Siberians, Nogais overlap with Central Asians, and North Caucasians overlap with Turks. Also Maltese overlap with Cypriots, Turkish Jews, Lebanese Christians, and Druze. It's still missing Nenetses and Siberian Komis though.

https://i.ibb.co/xq6ynnp/smartpca-europe.png



The distance from Helsinki to Dushanbe (capital of Tajikstan) is about 3,900 km, and the distance from Helsinki to Malta is about 2,800 km. But Finns are closer to Tajiks than Maltese based on F2 distances between samples in the 1240K+HO dataset. Therefore Finns must be Central Asian.

I concede Greeks along South Italians are genetically only borderline Europeans (about half way between European and MENA cluster). However culturally they're European, so I would still consider them White, but if you want to see them as mixed race, that's fine by me. That doesn't disprove that European race exists in genetic sense. Most European ethnic groups are firmly in the European cluster.

Maltese have historically mixed with Arabs and Africans. They're also a small irrelevant ethnic group as are many of those you listed.

Fins plot slightly out of European cluster relative to other Europeans, but they're still around 80% European. My point was that Europeans do form a distinct cluster separate from West Asians and Middle Eastern people for them most part at least.

[Komintasavalta]

Estimating or comparing distances by just looking a PCA graph is one of the most common mistakes. You reduce 15 components into 2 dimensions and there would certainly be some mistakes when trying to estimate distance only via PCA.

Central Greeks are significantly closer to Turks than they are to French.

Distance to: Central_Greek
20.27497226 Turkish
32.38777856 French

If you wish, you can also calculate via http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/k15-vahaduo_original.htm

If you multiply the matrix of component percentages with the matrix of FST distances between the components, then Central_Greek is actually further from Turkish than from French:


> t=read.csv("https://pastebin.com/raw/hDBUcTL8",row.names=1,check.names=F)/100 # K15 original
> fst=as.matrix(as.dist(read.csv(text=",North_Sea,Atlantic,Baltic,Eastern_Euro,West_Med,W est_Asian,East_Med,Middle_Eastern,South_Asian,Sout heast_Asian,Siberian,Amerindian,Oceanian,Northeast _African,Sub-Saharan
North_Sea,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Atlantic,.015,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Baltic,.02,.022,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Eastern_Euro,.02,.022,.024,,,,,,,,,,,,
West_Med,.029,.028,.037,.038,,,,,,,,,,,
West_Asian,.027,.026,.033,.031,.035,,,,,,,,,,
East_Med,.026,.024,.034,.032,.027,.019,,,,,,,,,
Middle_Eastern,.053,.05,.059,.058,.051,.046,.038,, ,,,,,,
South_Asian,.06,.062,.064,.056,.075,.053,.055,.078 ,,,,,,,
Southeast_Asian,.112,.114,.115,.102,.123,.109,.11, .127,.075,,,,,,
Siberian,.111,.113,.114,.1,.125,.11,.112,.13,.083, .056,,,,,
Amerindian,.138,.141,.141,.128,.156,.14,.143,.161, .12,.113,.107,,,,
Oceanian,.178,.179,.181,.173,.188,.176,.174,.19,.1 45,.166,.178,.217,,,
Northeast_African,.109,.108,.114,.108,.112,.103,.0 94,.106,.102,.137,.144,.178,.195,,
Sub-Saharan,.144,.144,.148,.142,.149,.139,.132,.139,.1 31,.164,.171,.204,.219,.042,",row.names=1,check.names=F)))
> fst=fst/mean(fst)
> t=as.matrix(t)%*%as.matrix(fst)
> d=as.matrix(dist(t))
> d["Central_Greek",c("French","Turkish")]
French Turkish
0.1608901 0.2454837

When you calculate distances without accounting for FST (like Vahaduo does), it doesn't give enough weight to differences in Mongoloid ancestry.

[Komintasavalta]

Most European ethnic groups are firmly in the European cluster.

Yeah except there's at least 20-30 North Caucasian ethnic groups alone. And even Saami is really a meta-ethnos, and there are 9 extant Saami languages that have lower mutual intelligibility than Germanic languages. Proto-Saami is roughly contemporaneous with Proto-Germanic and Proto-Finnic.


I concede Greeks along South Italians are genetically only borderline Europeans (about half way between European and MENA cluster).

Feiichy said that Croats are 0% MENA. And aren't you a Croat, so are you willing to say that Croats are at least 10% Middle Eastern?

Where do we draw the line of what counts as a balanced mix between white and Middle Eastern? Greeks? Ashkenazis? Maltese? Lebanese? North Caucasians? In either case, people who who are transitional between the balanced mixes and the purest whites are going to be found deep into the north of Europe.

[Supercomputer]

Yeah except there's at least 20-30 North Caucasian ethnic groups alone. And even Saami is really a meta-ethnos, and there are 9 extant Saami languages that have lower mutual intelligibility than Germanic languages. Proto-Saami is roughly contemporaneous with Proto-Germanic and Proto-Finnic.



Feiichy said that Croats are 0% MENA. And aren't you a Croat, so are you willing to say that Croats are at least 10% Middle Eastern?

Where do we draw the line of what counts as a balanced mix between white and Middle Eastern? Greeks? Ashkenazis? Maltese? Lebanese? North Caucasians? In either case, people who who are transitional between the balanced mixes and the purest whites are going to be found deep into the north of Europe.

There are less than 100K Sami in total. They're a small group. Small exceptions like this don't disprove most Europeans are genetically distinct from non Europeans. I'm Slovenian, not Croat. Being 10% Middle Eastern is virtually meaningless. I draw the line at around 50% at Greeks and South Italians. If you have a different standard and want to consider them mixed race, that's fine by me. That doesn't disprove my original point about the genetic existence of European race.

[Hektor12]

That doesn't disprove my original point about the genetic existence of European race.Why would somebody care about your original point about race? Youre a person who is trying to build virtual races to leave "unwanted" people outside, for example Turks. Theres, however, a white race of course exists. It has a very clear definition as how they call "Caucasian race" and it basically consist of a few known ancestors, which are; cromagnons of western eurasia, farmers of anatolia, aryans of central asia and ANE which contains yellow race components. All white "caucasian" people are basically recombinations of this components.

PS: Its sad to see desperate people who begins a "racial" theory and quickly switches to "they are white because muh culture".

[Supercomputer]

Why would somebody care about your original point about race? Youre a person who is trying to build virtual races to leave "unwanted" people outside, for example Turks. Theres, however, a white race of course exists. It has a very clear definition as how they call "Caucasian race" and it basically consist of a few known ancestors, which are; cromagnons of western eurasia, farmers of anatolia, aryans of central asia and ANE which contains yellow race components. All white "caucasian" people are basically recombinations of this components.

PS: Its sad to see desperate people who begins a "racial" theory and quickly switches to "they are white because muh culture".

That's not what genetic studies show. Turks are part of West Asian cluster, not European. My definition of White is much more in line with genetic reality than yours. And culture is just another argument in my favour.

You're not White. Deal with it.

[Hektor12]

You're not White. Deal with it.For me i am. You might deal with it.

How much i care about your opinion on my race? Zero. Good luck bro.

[Avgvstvs]

What I think of the term "white".

Let's face the fact that the term "white" can be unclear, i've seen people using it in several ways and that leads me to think that it is a polyvalent term, with different meanings that can even contrast each other and these are the ones that I detected in my experience on anthrofora and also in the wolrd outside:

-Some say it is a merely and arbitrarily social construct(in which white is "privileged"), so let's use an example to see an hypothetical situation where the term would be a social construct:
If I say the English are white but Germans are not(in an hypothetical society where english are wealthy and germans are poorer) i'd be using a socially constructed term, which contrasts genetics and anthropology, since obviously there is objectively not enough diffrence in terms of genetics and anthropology to say that one of the groups is white and the other is not.
Obviously i used an "extreme" example, since, when the term is described as social construct, it is usually backed up by basic superficial anthropological factors like skin color, for example. I mean that people speak of social construct in the wider context of "white" and "black" relationships in the society.

- Some others, anthrofora users but also many common people, use physical anthropological factors(as I mentioned en passant in the paragraph above), more or less developed, some just go by skin/eye/hair color or shades, while some use phenotypes and that's where terms like "caucasoid" and "europid" kick in. No wonder that this approach is very used, since appearance is the most evident thing one can use. Of course, as i mentioned, this is not a single method, as some just use very wide racial categories, some go deeper into it and there are debates about it even here.

- Geographical meaning, if implies that white= european/of european ancestry or even white=european and mena ancestry. This one can create contrast with anthropological notion.

- Last but not least, there is the genetic method, which is more popular here on anthrofora. This needs a founding notion: the geographical one, in the sense that your are white if your dna links you to certain areas.

As you all can see, a lot of stuff is involved and many people, even unconsciously, use "white standards" that are a mix of notions i described above.

Summing up: it's a mess, and some people get into infinite discussions simply because they don't specify what they mean for "white" and keep battling on the term ignoring the fact that they have a different view on it.

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[Avgvstvs]

.

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[JamesBond007]

the argument for race being a construct that I hear from people is usually that wherever you draw the line for a race to exist is arbitrary. We can put Germanic people and slavic people into separate races, but some people put them in the same white race. We can put Arabs and germans into one caucasian race or we can separate them into Semitic/germanic races or separate them into MENA and european races. How do we know which one is valid?

And can you show some evidence for some of your assertions, like "Europeans form a distinct genetic cluster separate from Middle Eastern and North African people" and "Greeks are closer to the French than to Turks"


http://www.humanbiologicaldiversity.com/Photos/GeneticsOfRace.jpg
Not sure if this illustration is legitimate or not, as the title seems to indicate there is a bias in favor of race being real, but regardless I don't see how west asia is distinct from europe here.

Sorry, I am on a smartphone rather than a computer so it's easier for me to copy and paste rather than type my own long reply :


The Arguments Against “Race”

How Can You Draw a Line Between Different Races?

A chapter summary in Race and Intelligence includes the lines:

There are no biological races. Human physical appearance varies gradually around the planet, with the most geographically distant peoples generally appearing the most different from one another.130

In other words: there is no clear way to divide different races. They merge into each other, with great variation in-between. A version of this argument is that there is no specific gene that is found only in one specific race. It can be countered that races are, of course, not entirely discrete categories because, if they were, they would be more like species, or perhaps genera, families, or orders on up the taxonomic scale.

Even if it were true that no unambiguous line can be drawn between races, this does not undermine the utility of race. The line between Grizzly bears and Brown bears is blurry, too—but you still know one when you see one and making distinctions between these subspecies is meaningful. Moreover, even if we were to accept that a species varies in small ways due to slightly different environments, then those at the extremes would differ so much, and in consistent ways, that it would become useful to distinguish between them.

Ultimately, it seems like people who make this argument are flirting with a kind of “tactical nihilism.” After all, no concept about the real world is mathematically pure. If “race” is “problematic” because it has blurry borders, then the concept of “history” is equally “problematic”—indeed, the term “problematic” is “problematic.” We use categories to divide our world into manageable chunks and thus negotiate it successfully. If we could not do that, we’d die. So the “blurry borders” argument fails the philosophical test of pragmatism. There exist population clusters that differ profoundly due to varying degrees of evolutionary isolation. These allow correct predictions to be made. That is all that is being argued.

Race is a “Western” Concept

Some say that race is illegitimate or immoral because it is steeped in Western history (and thus things like slavery and oppression), as well as the supposedly myopic and suffocating outlook of “Western science.” But this same argument could be made about almost any concept—including the ones that supposedly undermine or overcome Western hegemony. At some point, we have to accept a basic framing. And the central question is whether race is a predictive category or not. If race is problematic—that word again. . .—because it’s Western, then, presumably, we cannot use Western concepts at all to analyze anything non-Western. Following this logic, we shouldn’t even talk about anything that is non-Western using a Western tongue. Such argument may sound profound, but under inspection, they’re rather shallow. And for what it’s worth, non-Western cultures clearly have words and concepts that track with the Western notion of “race,” as we discussed earlier.

Race Has Meant Different Things

It has been noted that the word “race” can mean different things. Historically, it has been used in ways that “culture,” “ethnic group,” “nation,” or even “family” are now employed. Lord Acton’s Cambridge Modern History, for instance, referred to the “Habsburg race” in reference to the dynastic line.131 While the history of words is interesting, the fact that the meaning of words change over time is simply irrelevant to our purposes here. We are clear that by “race” we mean breeding populations separated in prehistory and adapted to different environments. If anyone uses race to mean anything else, then our use of race and his are merely homonyms. For what it’s worth, the word “mean” has meant different things historically. In Middle English, it meant “to intend.” Only by 1834 was “mean” widely being used in the way in which it is above.132 Does that “mean” that we cannot use the concept of “meaning”?

Studying Race Leads to Bad Things

Another supposed problem with race is that developing the concept leads to bad consequences. It legitimizes “racist groups,” “inspires hatred,” and so forth. That it might do this is clearly of no relevance to whether or not it is a scientifically justifiable and predictive category. This argument commits the fallacy of an “appeal to consequences” and, depending on how the consequences are described, an “appeal to emotion.” Firstly, it’s obvious that concepts of all kinds can have bad effects. Ecology—as well as awareness about pollution and natural degradation—has, on some level, “inspired” eco-terrorism and murder. Does that mean that research into cleaning the oceans and preserving their ecosystems should cease because it has led, in some way, to violence? To ask the question is to answer it.

Beyond that, it can be convincingly argued that suppressing the concept of race leads to very bad consequences. If a South Asian person has a kidney transplant and is given the kidney of a White person, then his body will likely reject it, elevating the possibility that the patient will die of kidney failure. This scenario is the reason why Britain’s National Health Service regularly appeals for more Black and South Asian organ donors.133 During the 2020 Covid-19 pandemic, it was found that mortality was particularly high among Blacks and South Asians living in Northern Europe, something that was argued to be for genetic reasons. Specifically, Vitamin D deficiency rendered one more susceptible to serious complications from Covid-19, and non-Europeans were much more likely to be deficient due to their darker skin, leaving them less able to absorb Vitamin D from the sun.134

There are consistent genetic racial differences in the prevalence of many serious medical conditions. Sometimes these stay in populations because a single inherited allele had positive consequences in ancestral environments, overwhelming the negatives consequences for individual carriers of two alleles. An example is sickle cell anaemia, a condition associated with Sub-Saharan Africans. If you carry two copies of the mutant allele, then you develop this debilitating condition. If, however, you carry one copy, then you will likely be immune to malaria.135 Cystic Fibrosis, a congenital disease among Northern European, is similar.136 It only appears when two carriers of the faulty allele have a child, there being a 50 percent chance that such a child will have Cystic Fibrosis. Various hypotheses have been advanced to explain why Cystic Fibrosis has remained in European populations. One states that carrying a single copy of the faulty allele causes carriers to be better able to fight off tuberculosis.137

In some cases, something is adaptive under Darwinian conditions but is maladaptive under modern conditions. For example, South Asians are particularly good at storing fat, and this is useful in the context of food scarcity, for obvious reasons. But with food abundance brought on by the Industrial Revolution and the use of fossil fuels, South Asians become diabetic more easily than Europeans.138 Helping South Asians deal with these problems can only occur with a proper understanding of their nature.
There is evidence that Northeast Asians are less well-adapted to flu-like viruses than either Europeans or Sub-Saharan Africans. This may be because flu thrives in cold and wet or hot and wet ecologies, meaning that Europeans and Sub-Saharan Africans would be more strongly selected to be resistant to flu.139 Moreover, races that never developed complex agriculture—such as the Inuit, the Australian Aborigines, the Pacific Islanders, and many Native American groups—have low resistance to flu because animal husbandry often causes viruses to jump the species barrier, and races that evolved in such a context developed better adapted immune systems.140 This would imply that, during an influenza pandemic, East Asians in Western countries should get special protection from the flu. Denying that race exists would simply put people in danger. All of these are poignant illustrations of why race is definitely not a “social construct” and a proper understanding of it is literally a matter of life and death.

Lewontin’s Fallacy


A more scientifically informed criticism of race can be found in the common criticism, “There are more differences within races than there are between them.” This is wheeled out with great profundity by biased scientists when interviewed in biased newspapers, without any references. It has come to be known as “Lewontin’s Fallacy,” named after biologist Richard Lewontin (b.1929), who argued that 85 percent of human genetic differences are due to individual variation, and only 15 percent due to differences between populations and ethnic groups; ergo, “there are more difference within races than between them.”

This fallacy can be easily dispatched. The sheer number of differences is less important than the direction of the differences. If a variety of small differences all push in the same direction—which they will in the case of subspecies evolved to different ecologies—then this can add up to significant overall differences between average members of different races.141

British biologist A.W.F. Edwards presented a systematic critique of Lewontin’s argument (along the way, coining the phrase “Lewontin’s Fallacy”).142 He noted that Lewontin simply looked at a small number of genetic loci and found that, indeed, 85 percent of human variation was due to individual differences. However, argues Edwards, if you look at lots of loci, then you will find these loci correlate differently in different groups, due to gene frequency differences, leading to very different results. Indeed, this leads to races being very different in numerous predictable ways, rendering “race” a scientific category. Edwards pointed out that, using Lewontin’s logic, we wouldn’t be able to distinguish between different tree structures, because these differences are hidden in the correlational data, just as race differences are. But using only genetic data, scientists were able to correctly highlight 15 forms of tree structure. As Edwards notes, Lewontin’s argument could only work if each of the genetic loci highlighted were randomly distributed between races, but it is in the very nature of races—being adaptations to different ecologies—that genes are not randomly distributed. Thus, Lewontin presents us—albeit wrapped up in abstruse scientific language—with nothing more than a circular argument.

To make matters worse, the loci which Lewontin used do not vary substantially between races. He used markers such as blood-type, and, as anthropologist Peter Frost has noted, these are “not particularly selectively important. . . . [W]hen genes vary within a population, despite similar selection pressures, it’s usually because they have little or no selective value.”143 When methods were used with markers that do vary between races, such as craniometric variation and skin color, it was found that 81 percent of the variation is between races.144 Lewontin, therefore, only uncovered the findings he did by using genetic loci that aren’t especially relevant to regional evolution—despite evolution to different regions being the essence of race. So, Lewontin’s argument is a kind of sleight of hand.145 What he is actually proclaiming is this: When you use genetic loci that are distributed very similarly in all races, and in which there is much variation within races due to these loci not being very important to selection to different ecologies, then there are, indeed, more differences within races than between them. He hardly disproved the reality of race.

We’re All 99% The Same

In recent years, an argument against race has arisen that is much like the Lewontin fallacy: “Science has proven that every individual is more than 99 percent identical to every other.” This meme of “99%” was introduced at the turn of the century by none other than the Human Genome Project.146

On the individual level, tiny genetic differences (humans only differ by 0.0012 percent on average) have important consequences, and it is highly misleading to downplay them. The genetic differences in heritable musical ability between a professional musician and Mozart are probably rather small, but they are obviously profound. Moreover, on the level of species, humans share a remarkable amount of genetic similarity (upwards of 98 percent) with our closest evolutionary relative, the chimpanzee. We even share much in common with other animals, like pigs and dogs. Clearly, small differences can have dramatic physical, psychological, and behavioral effects. And no one is willing to assert that since humans and chimpanzees are “98% the same,” we should not make distinctions between the two.

The Concept of Race Makes Me Uncomfortable

Another argument—and there are many versions of it—amounts to an appeal to emotion, in which a person essentially argues that “race” makes him feel unhappy. All that can be said is that this is manifestly fallacious and thus should be dismissed out of hand. How you feel is irrelevant to whether or not something is true. If being told that you have a rare blood disorder makes you feel unhappy, does that mean that it is not true or that you shouldn’t be told about it?

On a deeper level, we should understand that science is fundamentally amoral. It is about the relentless search for the objective truth. New scientific discoveries almost always offended some vested interest or other. This is why the kind of scientists who tend to make really important discoveries—so-called “geniuses”— seem to combine outlier high IQ with moderately low Agreeableness (altruism and empathy) and moderately low Conscientiousness (impulse control, rule following). This means that they can “think outside the box,” not bound by conventional rules—maybe they even take pleasure in slaughtering sacred cows. It also means that they either don’t care about offending people or they are sufficiently high on the “autism spectrum” that they wouldn’t be able to anticipate offending people even if they did care.147

If You Are Interested in “Race,” Then You Are Probably

“Racist”

This criticism—that discussing race is “racist”—amounts to a so-called “fact-value conflation.” That a person presents something as being a “fact” has no bearing at all on his “values.” Facts are value-neutral. If a doctor tells you that you only have a week to live, does that mean he wants you to die? Furthermore, we should probably be, at the very least, suspicious of those who regularly employ the word “racist.” The first recorded use of the word “racist” was in 1932, with “racism” first observed in 1928. These terms gradually came to replace “racialist,” which was first recorded in 1910, and “racialism,” first noted in 1882.148 In 1928, “racism” meant the belief that each “race” (meaning “ethnic group”) should have their own state and that civic society was optimal if states were racially based.149 “Racialism” referred to prejudices against other races and the belief that one’s own race was superior.

In the wake of World War II, “racist” gradually came to mean what “racialist” had once meant.150 However, the term “racist” has been extended far beyond this, to refer to anybody who is seen to deviate from ideological orthodoxy with regard to the issue of race. Terming such a person the “racist” associates him with that which is accepted as somehow evil and immoral. As this association is damaging, the term “racist” is an emotionally manipulative means of keeping people on the “correct” ideological path. In other words, it is an ad hominem criticism. The essence of the accusation is that the subject has strayed sufficiently far from orthodoxy that he is immoral; he is a heretic. There are many terms of this kind. As English historian Alexandra Walsham summarizes, in her analysis of Early Modern religious non-conformity in England, the accusation of “atheist” was “available for the expression and repression of disquiet about ‘aberrant’ mental and behavioral tendencies—for the reinforcement and restatement of theoretical norms.” Both “atheist” and “papist” were “categories of deviance to which individuals who were even marginally departed from the prescribed ideals might be assimilated and thereby reproved.”151

There is simply no logical reason to reject the concept of race, and there are very persuasive reasons to accept it as what it is—a scientific category. On this basis, one should be rather guarded about the motives of those who refuse to accept it, who resort to name-calling and obfuscation, or who are mired in the contradictions and incoherence.--Professor Edward Dutton

[JamesBond007]

Most of the morons who believe in CRT are liberal arts majors rather than STEM people.

[Komintasavalta]

Here's a secondary PCA based on G25. It includes all European populations except Kalmyks and Nenetses, and it includes all populations with a distance of less than .1 to some European population. I combined most populations that were divided in multiple subpopulations by an underscore into a single population.

The huge pink polygon that surrounds Caucasians is the hull for Turkish subpopulations.

There isn't really a genetic gap between between Europe and West Asia, because it is bridged by different subpopulations of Jews, and also by Greeks and Italians. Also the gap between Europe and Siberia is bridged by Bashkirs. But a bigger mystery is why there is such a huge genetic hole between the VUR and North Caucasus. (It would partially be bridged by Nogais from Karachay-Cherkessia, but they are missing from G25.)

https://i.ibb.co/bgpxJJQ/g25-hulls-europe-neighbors.png


There are less than 100K Sami in total. They're a small group. Small exceptions like this don't disprove most Europeans are genetically distinct from non Europeans.

You said "most ethnic groups", not "most ethnic groups weighted by population size". Most ethnic groups are small.

[Avgvstvs]

Here's a secondary PCA based on G25. It includes all European populations except Kalmyks and Nenetses, and it includes all populations with a distance of less than .1 to some European population. I combined most populations that were divided in multiple subpopulations by an underscore into a single population.

The huge pink polygon that surrounds Caucasians is the hull for Turkish subpopulations.

There isn't really a genetic gap between between Europe and West Asia, because it is bridged by different subpopulations of Jews, and also by Greeks and Italians. Also the gap between Europe and Siberia is bridged by Bashkirs. But a bigger mystery is why there is such a huge genetic hole between the VUR and North Caucasus. (It would partially be bridged by Nogais from Karachay-Cherkessia, but they are missing from G25.)

https://i.ibb.co/bgpxJJQ/g25-hulls-europe-neighbors.png



You said "most ethnic groups", not "most ethnic groups weighted by population size". Most ethnic groups are small.Italians as a whole do not bridge europe and west asia, i can agree on saying sicilians are peripherical, but they're just one of the subgroups of Italy.

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[Grace O'Malley]

Here's a secondary PCA based on G25. It includes all European populations except Kalmyks and Nenetses, and it includes all populations with a distance of less than .1 to some European population. I combined most populations that were divided in multiple subpopulations by an underscore into a single population.

The huge pink polygon that surrounds Caucasians is the hull for Turkish subpopulations.

There isn't really a genetic gap between between Europe and West Asia, because it is bridged by different subpopulations of Jews, and also by Greeks and Italians. Also the gap between Europe and Siberia is bridged by Bashkirs. But a bigger mystery is why there is such a huge genetic hole between the VUR and North Caucasus. (It would partially be bridged by Nogais from Karachay-Cherkessia, but they are missing from G25.)

https://i.ibb.co/bgpxJJQ/g25-hulls-europe-neighbors.png



You said "most ethnic groups", not "most ethnic groups weighted by population size". Most ethnic groups are small.

Very interesting plot. Thanks for taking the time to do this. It is interesting how a lot of Europeans are squished together because of the addition of the other populations. The North-Western and Slavic populations are so tightly plotted together you can't even read all the populations. It is interesting the way some of the other populations are positioned also. A picture tells a thousand words.:thumb001:

[Supercomputer]

Here's a secondary PCA based on G25. It includes all European populations except Kalmyks and Nenetses, and it includes all populations with a distance of less than .1 to some European population. I combined most populations that were divided in multiple subpopulations by an underscore into a single population.

The huge pink polygon that surrounds Caucasians is the hull for Turkish subpopulations.

There isn't really a genetic gap between between Europe and West Asia, because it is bridged by different subpopulations of Jews, and also by Greeks and Italians. Also the gap between Europe and Siberia is bridged by Bashkirs. But a bigger mystery is why there is such a huge genetic hole between the VUR and North Caucasus. (It would partially be bridged by Nogais from Karachay-Cherkessia, but they are missing from G25.)

https://i.ibb.co/bgpxJJQ/g25-hulls-europe-neighbors.png



You said "most ethnic groups", not "most ethnic groups weighted by population size". Most ethnic groups are small.

Jews are a mixed race population. If you ignore them, the European cluster does not touch the West Asian and Middle Eastern one in fact there is quite a big gap.

https://i.postimg.cc/1XTpjgNh/OrjiL9c.png (https://postimages.org/)

Population size obviously matters. Small exceptions do not disprove the rule.

[Avgvstvs]

Jews are a mixed race population. If you ignore them, the European cluster does not touch the West Asian and Middle Eastern one in fact there is quite a big gap.

https://i.postimg.cc/1XTpjgNh/OrjiL9c.png (https://postimages.org/)

Population size obviously matters. Small exceptions do not disprove the rule.Where is that map from precisely? I saw that many many times but i'd like to know where it comes from

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[JamesBond007]

Where is that map from precisely? I saw that many many times but i'd like to know where it comes from

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I dunno, but it looks like a Eurogenes K15 map to me.

[Avgvstvs]

I dunno, but it looks like a Eurogenes K15 map to me.Does such a map exist but with K13?

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[Adrianv2]

I'm just going to focus on small part of the CRT, which I think is the most important and which bother me the most.

CRT is among other things based on the following premises:
- That Whiteness is artificial
- That Whiteness is oppressive
So in short, they say it's an artificial idea that oppresses people. Those premises are the main reason why increasing number of intellectuals today buy into the idea that so called "Whiteness" should be abolished
So, to intellectually defeat it, you need to show people it's main premises are wrong mainly that Whiteness ISN'T artificial and that it ISN'T oppressive.

1.)Show them that "Whiteness" is NOT an artificial construct
- Europeans form a distinct genetic cluster separate from Middle Eastern and North African people. Greeks are closer to the French than to Turks, Portuguese are closer to Scandinavians than to Northwest Africans and Russians are closer to the British than to Central Asians. There is also a common European culture and history going back to Greece and Rome as well as common religion.

- Remind them that "Whiteness" would exist even if there was no slavery or colonialism. One of the most annoying ideas floating in the left wing circles is this idea that "race and White people was/were invented in order to justify slavery and colonialism. This is demonstrably false. Even if Europeans never settled in the New World, never practised slavery and always minded their own business, as the world eventually became globalized, so called Whiteness or some level of pan European identity would sooner or later emerge at least to some extent. A British person would still look at a Dutchman and clearly see he is more similar to him both physically as well as culturally than someone from Korea, Nigeria or the Americas.

2.) Debunk the idea that Whiteness is oppressive
Remind them that:
- Colonialism was universal to all parts of the world and had nothing to do with race.
- Europe was victim of colonialism as much as it was the perpetrator
- Slavery was universal to everyone and had nothing to do with race
- Europeans were the victims of non White slavery

3.) Remind them that Whites are the least racist race in the world.
Show them that Whites treat racial minorities better than anyone else. Whites will not only allow large burdensome racial minorities to live in their countries, they will actually give them privileges like Affirmative action and it's European equivalents as well as diversity quotas. But not only that; they will go a step further and demonize themselves and teach totally one sided, exaggerated and de-contextualized narratives of history just to attempt to minimize the natural resentment against minorities that live in their countries at their expense. Chinese would never do that. Arabs would never do that. Indians would never do that. Only White people. Yet how are they thanked? By being demonized and attacked as the only perpetrators of racism.

3. Show them that race is NOT just a social construct

The idea that race is just a social construct stems from several logical fallacies namely the continuum fallacy as well as deconstructionist fallacy. If race is a social construct then so are colors. You can philosophically deconstruct any concept you want. A species could also be seen as a social construct. So can a chair.

4. Remind them that racism would exist even if there would be no White people. Leftists believe racism is the greatest evil in the world. Because of very one sided narratives of history the first association of "racism" is racism of Whites against Blacks or non Whites. However racism ie tribalism is universal to all human races and even if White people were truly bread out of existence, racism would still exist. For example the only reason tensions between Blacks and Hispanics in the United States aren't higher is because they both still politically align under the same ideology against White people.

5. And finally even if Whiteness was really artificial and it really oppressed people (which it isn't and it doesn't) the solution would not be to abolish White people. The solution would be just to leave White people alone and live in countries where White people can't oppress you. Separation is not oppression. In fact, separation is the opposite of oppression. (All groups that were oppressed throughout history sought secession from their oppressors). Take Japaneseness for example. Is it a social construct? Yes (all ethnic groups are social constructs) Has it historically oppressed people? Yes. Does it oppress people today? Yes. There are Koreans and Chinese living in Japan and they are discriminated against by Japanese. Yet does anyone push for so called Japaneseness to be abolished? No. If you don't want to be oppressed by Japanese, don't live in Japan. The same with so called Whiteness. If you don't want to be "oppressed" by Whites, don't live among Whites.

In CRT Cultural Marxism White is not racial, whiteness is system of government, religion, nuclear family, work ethic etc. An AA museum posted this, got dragged then removed it. CRT seeks to destroy W. Civilization, constitutions, borders, countries etc.

In Smithsonian Race Guidelines, Rational Thinking and Hard Work Are White Values
The Smithsonian National Museum of African American History and Culture recently unveiled guidelines for talking about race. A graphic displayed in the guidelines, entitled "Aspects and Assumptions of Whiteness in the United States," declares that rational thinking and hard work, among others, are white values.

In the section, Smithsonian declares that "objective, rational, linear thinking," "quantitative emphasis," "hard work before play," and various other values are aspects and assumptions of whiteness.
https://www.newsweek.com/smithsonian-race-guidelines-rational-thinking-hard-work-are-white-values-1518333
https://d.newsweek.com/en/full/1610610/smithsonian-aspects-white-culture.webp?w=790&f=ab12077631acab2dac02fd587b3f4f15

[Hamilcar]

1.)Show them that "Whiteness" is NOT an artificial construct
- Europeans form a distinct genetic cluster separate from Middle Eastern and North African people. Greeks are closer to the French than to Turks, Portuguese are closer to Scandinavians than to Northwest Africans and Russians are closer to the British than to Central Asians. There is also a common European culture and history going back to Greece and Rome as well as common religion.

It is an artificial construct, PCAs and their clusters have already shown their flaws and we talk in terms of continuums not really strictly defined clusters. Ancient greeks (at least the datas we have for the moment) were even more southern shifted than modern day aegean greeks which clearly mean slavic migrations did impact mainland Greece. Romans certainly never felt any sense of "european" pride. Christianity is a pure "semitic" product born in Palestine and Catholicism itself was born in North-West Africa.






2.) Debunk the idea that Whiteness is oppressive
Remind them that:
- Colonialism was universal to all parts of the world and had nothing to do with race.
- Europe was victim of colonialism as much as it was the perpetrator
- Slavery was universal to everyone and had nothing to do with race
- Europeans were the victims of non White slavery

- Not a single colonial movements can really be compared to the european one which affected the whole planet and in general to the detriment of local populations and yes it had all to do with races since one of their justification was that superior races needed to brought civilization to the inferior ones. We see a whole continent being whiped out of 90% of its population, cultures destroyed, imposed christianity, segregation/discrimination along with caste systems but yet you dare to say "colonialism is universal" ?


- "Europe" wasn't victim of any of this, only some localized areas saw migrations of new populations and it was of course way less violent than what we saw later during the XIXth century with west european colonialism.

- It was indeed universal but it would be wrong to say it wasn't about race especially in the arabo-muslim world.

- Lol that's another propaganda spread by right wing whites to play the victims. Reality is that Barbary slave trade was actually initiated by white amirals and their crews were also composed of europeans :

Jan Janszoon for example was dutch : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon

The pirates of Salé were in fact Iberians known as hornacheros : https://corsairsandcaptivesblog.com/the-story-of-the-hornacheros-and-the-founding-of-the-corsair-republic-of-sale-part-1/

Barbarossa was in fact albanian/greek : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayreddin_Barbarossa

Hassan Veneziano was Italian : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Veneziano

Ali Bitchin was Italian : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Bitchin

Yusuf Rais was English : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ward

etc etc

And like I said their crews were also european :


The so-called "Barbary" captains, especially the most famous of them, the two Barbarossa brothers, whose exploits have given rise to sinister chronicles and legends, were not Moors from Africa,[...] and the crews of the ships, the oarsmen of the galleys, were, for the most numerous, christian slaves, captured at sea or on the coasts of Spain and Italy.

Jacques Heers, Les Barbaresques, p. 8


Their sailors and men-at-arms were, for many and often for the most part, from the Balkans - Albania especially - or from the recently subjugated Genoese and Venetian islands: renegades or taken by force and abducted at a very young age, torn from their families.

Jacques Heers, Les Barbaresques, p. 68








3. Show them that race is NOT just a social construct

The idea that race is just a social construct stems from several logical fallacies namely the continuum fallacy as well as deconstructionist fallacy. If race is a social construct then so are colors. You can philosophically deconstruct any concept you want. A species could also be seen as a social construct. So can a chair.

Depends how you define "race" but the problem with this, is that people like you are quick to use this "race" thing to promote racial hierarchy and to protect their superiority complex.




4. Remind them that racism would exist even if there would be no White people. Leftists believe racism is the greatest evil in the world. Because of very one sided narratives of history the first association of "racism" is racism of Whites against Blacks or non Whites. However racism ie tribalism is universal to all human races and even if White people were truly bread out of existence, racism would still exist. For example the only reason tensions between Blacks and Hispanics in the United States aren't higher is because they both still politically align under the same ideology against White people.

Agree. Racism is universal.




5. And finally even if Whiteness was really artificial and it really oppressed people (which it isn't and it doesn't) the solution would not be to abolish White people. The solution would be just to leave White people alone and live in countries where White people can't oppress you. Separation is not oppression. In fact, separation is the opposite of oppression. (All groups that were oppressed throughout history sought secession from their oppressors). Take Japaneseness for example. Is it a social construct? Yes (all ethnic groups are social constructs) Has it historically oppressed people? Yes. Does it oppress people today? Yes. There are Koreans and Chinese living in Japan and they are discriminated against by Japanese. Yet does anyone push for so called Japaneseness to be abolished? No. If you don't want to be oppressed by Japanese, don't live in Japan. The same with so called Whiteness. If you don't want to be "oppressed" by Whites, don't live among Whites.


Stop talking about "white people" I will certainly never consider a sicilian or portuguese as "white people" nor as similar to russians or Irish so it's also a social construct born from this more and more globalized world.

[JamesBond007]

In CRT Cultural Marxism White is not racial, whiteness is system of government, religion, nuclear family, work ethic etc. An AA museum posted this, got dragged then removed it. CRT seeks to destroy W. Civilization, constitutions, borders, countries etc.

In Smithsonian Race Guidelines, Rational Thinking and Hard Work Are White Values
The Smithsonian National Museum of African American History and Culture recently unveiled guidelines for talking about race. A graphic displayed in the guidelines, entitled "Aspects and Assumptions of Whiteness in the United States," declares that rational thinking and hard work, among others, are white values.

In the section, Smithsonian declares that "objective, rational, linear thinking," "quantitative emphasis," "hard work before play," and various other values are aspects and assumptions of whiteness.
https://www.newsweek.com/smithsonian-race-guidelines-rational-thinking-hard-work-are-white-values-1518333
https://d.newsweek.com/en/full/1610610/smithsonian-aspects-white-culture.webp?w=790&f=ab12077631acab2dac02fd587b3f4f15

'Whiteness' is not racial but only cultural, in CRT, because CRT morons are liberal arts types rather than STEM people. Even American anthropology is a humanity rather than STEM thanks to Franz Boas.

From a biological point of view culture can be seen as a significant asymptote between the underlying genotype and the extended phenotype.

However, as America becomes less NorthWest European then there is a incongruence between the national culture and the people.

In other words, as Americans become no longer the founding stock of WASPs then America will continue to disintegrate into a caucophony of miasmic incoherence and CRT will exploit this state of affairs.

[Supercomputer]

It is an artificial construct, PCAs and their clusters have already shown their flaws and we talk in terms of continuums not really strictly defined clusters. Ancient greeks (at least the datas we have for the moment) were even more southern shifted than modern day aegean greeks which clearly mean slavic migrations did impact mainland Greece. Romans certainly never felt any sense of "european" pride. Christianity is a pure "semitic" product born in Palestine and Catholicism itself was born in North-West Africa.





- Not a single colonial movements can really be compared to the european one which affected the whole planet and in general to the detriment of local populations and yes it had all to do with races since one of their justification was that superior races needed to brought civilization to the inferior ones. We see a whole continent being whiped out of 90% of its population, cultures destroyed, imposed christianity, segregation/discrimination along with caste systems but yet you dare to say "colonialism is universal" ?


- "Europe" wasn't victim of any of this, only some localized areas saw migrations of new populations and it was of course way less violent than what we saw later during the XIXth century with west european colonialism.

- It was indeed universal but it would be wrong to say it wasn't about race especially in the arabo-muslim world.

- Lol that's another propaganda spread by right wing whites to play the victims. Reality is that Barbary slave trade was actually initiated by white amirals and their crews were also composed of europeans :

Jan Janszoon for example was dutch : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon

The pirates of Salé were in fact Iberians known as hornacheros : https://corsairsandcaptivesblog.com/the-story-of-the-hornacheros-and-the-founding-of-the-corsair-republic-of-sale-part-1/

Barbarossa was in fact albanian/greek : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayreddin_Barbarossa

Hassan Veneziano was Italian : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Veneziano

Ali Bitchin was Italian : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Bitchin

Yusuf Rais was English : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ward

etc etc

And like I said their crews were also european :



Jacques Heers, Les Barbaresques, p. 8



Jacques Heers, Les Barbaresques, p. 68






Depends how you define "race" but the problem with this, is that people like you are quick to use this "race" thing to promote racial hierarchy and to protect their superiority complex.





Agree. Racism is universal.






Stop talking about "white people" I will certainly never consider a sicilian or portuguese as "white people" nor as similar to russians or Irish so it's also a social construct born from this more and more globalized world.

Go back to where you came from. You and that Turk don't belong on a EUROPEAN cultural community.

[Supercomputer]

It is an artificial construct, PCAs and their clusters have already shown their flaws and we talk in terms of continuums not really strictly defined clusters. Ancient greeks (at least the datas we have for the moment) were even more southern shifted than modern day aegean greeks which clearly mean slavic migrations did impact mainland Greece. Romans certainly never felt any sense of "european" pride. Christianity is a pure "semitic" product born in Palestine and Catholicism itself was born in North-West Africa.





- Not a single colonial movements can really be compared to the european one which affected the whole planet and in general to the detriment of local populations and yes it had all to do with races since one of their justification was that superior races needed to brought civilization to the inferior ones. We see a whole continent being whiped out of 90% of its population, cultures destroyed, imposed christianity, segregation/discrimination along with caste systems but yet you dare to say "colonialism is universal" ?


- "Europe" wasn't victim of any of this, only some localized areas saw migrations of new populations and it was of course way less violent than what we saw later during the XIXth century with west european colonialism.

- It was indeed universal but it would be wrong to say it wasn't about race especially in the arabo-muslim world.

- Lol that's another propaganda spread by right wing whites to play the victims. Reality is that Barbary slave trade was actually initiated by white amirals and their crews were also composed of europeans :

Jan Janszoon for example was dutch : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon

The pirates of Salé were in fact Iberians known as hornacheros : https://corsairsandcaptivesblog.com/the-story-of-the-hornacheros-and-the-founding-of-the-corsair-republic-of-sale-part-1/

Barbarossa was in fact albanian/greek : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayreddin_Barbarossa

Hassan Veneziano was Italian : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Veneziano

Ali Bitchin was Italian : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Bitchin

Yusuf Rais was English : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ward

etc etc

And like I said their crews were also european :



Jacques Heers, Les Barbaresques, p. 8



Jacques Heers, Les Barbaresques, p. 68






Depends how you define "race" but the problem with this, is that people like you are quick to use this "race" thing to promote racial hierarchy and to protect their superiority complex.





Agree. Racism is universal.






Stop talking about "white people" I will certainly never consider a sicilian or portuguese as "white people" nor as similar to russians or Irish so it's also a social construct born from this more and more globalized world.

European colonization had a positive economic impact on the third world. There are 2 academic papers done by respectable economists that prove that

[Supercomputer]

It is an artificial construct, PCAs and their clusters have already shown their flaws and we talk in terms of continuums not really strictly defined clusters. Ancient greeks (at least the datas we have for the moment) were even more southern shifted than modern day aegean greeks which clearly mean slavic migrations did impact mainland Greece. Romans certainly never felt any sense of "european" pride. Christianity is a pure "semitic" product born in Palestine and Catholicism itself was born in North-West Africa.





- Not a single colonial movements can really be compared to the european one which affected the whole planet and in general to the detriment of local populations and yes it had all to do with races since one of their justification was that superior races needed to brought civilization to the inferior ones. We see a whole continent being whiped out of 90% of its population, cultures destroyed, imposed christianity, segregation/discrimination along with caste systems but yet you dare to say "colonialism is universal" ?


- "Europe" wasn't victim of any of this, only some localized areas saw migrations of new populations and it was of course way less violent than what we saw later during the XIXth century with west european colonialism.

- It was indeed universal but it would be wrong to say it wasn't about race especially in the arabo-muslim world.

- Lol that's another propaganda spread by right wing whites to play the victims. Reality is that Barbary slave trade was actually initiated by white amirals and their crews were also composed of europeans :

Jan Janszoon for example was dutch : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon

The pirates of Salé were in fact Iberians known as hornacheros : https://corsairsandcaptivesblog.com/the-story-of-the-hornacheros-and-the-founding-of-the-corsair-republic-of-sale-part-1/

Barbarossa was in fact albanian/greek : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayreddin_Barbarossa

Hassan Veneziano was Italian : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Veneziano

Ali Bitchin was Italian : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Bitchin

Yusuf Rais was English : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ward

etc etc

And like I said their crews were also european :



Jacques Heers, Les Barbaresques, p. 8



Jacques Heers, Les Barbaresques, p. 68






Depends how you define "race" but the problem with this, is that people like you are quick to use this "race" thing to promote racial hierarchy and to protect their superiority complex.





Agree. Racism is universal.






Stop talking about "white people" I will certainly never consider a sicilian or portuguese as "white people" nor as similar to russians or Irish so it's also a social construct born from this more and more globalized world.

Europeans ARE a superior race. Europeans gave the world the following:

democracy
modern economy
science and technology
industrial revolution
enlightenment
philosophy
modern medicine
separation of church and state
rights of women
freedom of speech
freedom of religion
modern legal system
banned cousin marraiges
protestant work ethic

Without Europeans the world would be still in the 16th century. No electricity, cars, computers, modern medicine, human rights etc. You should thank us before condemning us.

[Hamilcar]

Europeans ARE a superior race. Europeans gave the world the following:

democracy
modern economy
science and technology
industrial revolution
enlightenment
philosophy
modern medicine
separation of church and state
rights of women
freedom of speech
freedom of religion
modern legal system
banned cousin marraiges
protestant work ethic

Without Europeans the world would be still in the 16th century. No electricity, cars, computers, modern medicine, human rights etc. You should thank us before condemning us.


Based on your answers, it seems you simply copy-paste your initial post lol but It doesn't surprise me.

Anyway europeans are not a "race" and not all europeans produced what you wrote.

Democracy was apparently created by greeks who like I previously said were not part of the european "cluster", they were closer to west asians than people like french or swede.

"science and technology" is meaningless be more specific

Industrial revolution wasn't necessarily a good thing...we see the results today.

"enlightenment" also happened in other places

"philosophy" is not a european creation ...chinese, indians, egyptians, etc would all laugh at you

"modern medicine" be more specific

"separation of church and state" completely destroyed your societies. Enjoy your LGBTs , I don't see how that's an advancement.

"rights of women" not a european creation

"Freedom of speech" same

"freedom of religion" Cyrus the Great would laugh at you

"Modern legal system" lmao

"banned cousin marraiges" wtf are you talking about?

"protestant work ethic" the same ethic that lead to the secularization of your society.

[Adrianv2]

'Whiteness' is not racial but only cultural, in CRT, because CRT morons are liberal arts types rather than STEM people. Even American anthropology is a humanity rather than STEM thanks to Franz Boas.

From a biological point of view culture can be seen as a significant asymptote between the underlying genotype and the extended phenotype.

However, as America becomes less NorthWest European then there is a incongruence between the national culture and the people.

In other words, as Americans become no longer the founding stock of WASPs then America will continue to disintegrate into a caucophony of miasmic incoherence and CRT will exploit this state of affairs.

100% accurate if/when people don't assimilate......or at least understand and appreciate the constitution and the significance of it.
And many do not, especially illegals.

[SouthDutch7991]

I'm just going to focus on small part of the CRT, which I think is the most important and which bother me the most.

CRT is among other things based on the following premises:
- That Whiteness is artificial
- That Whiteness is oppressive
So in short, they say it's an artificial idea that oppresses people. Those premises are the main reason why increasing number of intellectuals today buy into the idea that so called "Whiteness" should be abolished
So, to intellectually defeat it, you need to show people it's main premises are wrong mainly that Whiteness ISN'T artificial and that it ISN'T oppressive.

1.)Show them that "Whiteness" is NOT an artificial construct
- Europeans form a distinct genetic cluster separate from Middle Eastern and North African people. Greeks are closer to the French than to Turks, Portuguese are closer to Scandinavians than to Northwest Africans and Russians are closer to the British than to Central Asians. There is also a common European culture and history going back to Greece and Rome as well as common religion.

- Remind them that "Whiteness" would exist even if there was no slavery or colonialism. One of the most annoying ideas floating in the left wing circles is this idea that "race and White people was/were invented in order to justify slavery and colonialism. This is demonstrably false. Even if Europeans never settled in the New World, never practised slavery and always minded their own business, as the world eventually became globalized, so called Whiteness or some level of pan European identity would sooner or later emerge at least to some extent. A British person would still look at a Dutchman and clearly see he is more similar to him both physically as well as culturally than someone from Korea, Nigeria or the Americas.

2.) Debunk the idea that Whiteness is oppressive
Remind them that:
- Colonialism was universal to all parts of the world and had nothing to do with race.
- Europe was victim of colonialism as much as it was the perpetrator
- Slavery was universal to everyone and had nothing to do with race
- Europeans were the victims of non White slavery

3.) Remind them that Whites are the least racist race in the world.
Show them that Whites treat racial minorities better than anyone else. Whites will not only allow large burdensome racial minorities to live in their countries, they will actually give them privileges like Affirmative action and it's European equivalents as well as diversity quotas. But not only that; they will go a step further and demonize themselves and teach totally one sided, exaggerated and de-contextualized narratives of history just to attempt to minimize the natural resentment against minorities that live in their countries at their expense. Chinese would never do that. Arabs would never do that. Indians would never do that. Only White people. Yet how are they thanked? By being demonized and attacked as the only perpetrators of racism.

3. Show them that race is NOT just a social construct

The idea that race is just a social construct stems from several logical fallacies namely the continuum fallacy as well as deconstructionist fallacy. If race is a social construct then so are colors. You can philosophically deconstruct any concept you want. A species could also be seen as a social construct. So can a chair.

4. Remind them that racism would exist even if there would be no White people. Leftists believe racism is the greatest evil in the world. Because of very one sided narratives of history the first association of "racism" is racism of Whites against Blacks or non Whites. However racism ie tribalism is universal to all human races and even if White people were truly bread out of existence, racism would still exist. For example the only reason tensions between Blacks and Hispanics in the United States aren't higher is because they both still politically align under the same ideology against White people.

5. And finally even if Whiteness was really artificial and it really oppressed people (which it isn't and it doesn't) the solution would not be to abolish White people. The solution would be just to leave White people alone and live in countries where White people can't oppress you. Separation is not oppression. In fact, separation is the opposite of oppression. (All groups that were oppressed throughout history sought secession from their oppressors). Take Japaneseness for example. Is it a social construct? Yes (all ethnic groups are social constructs) Has it historically oppressed people? Yes. Does it oppress people today? Yes. There are Koreans and Chinese living in Japan and they are discriminated against by Japanese. Yet does anyone push for so called Japaneseness to be abolished? No. If you don't want to be oppressed by Japanese, don't live in Japan. The same with so called Whiteness. If you don't want to be "oppressed" by Whites, don't live among Whites.

How about "random people from other continents aren't entitled to live in other peoples countries just because those other people did bad things once just like everyone else". When I worked retail as my first job, I had to work a bank transfer at the front desk. It was EXCLUSIVELY non-whites sending money to their family, EXCLUSIVELY outside the country. I am being 100% honest when I say that in my years of working there I never saw a SINGLE white customer use it to send it to relatives, anywhere. How is that fair to the people working and living here and who have been here in a civilisation that THEY built for 200+ years?

[Supercomputer]

Based on your answers, it seems you simply copy-paste your initial post lol but It doesn't surprise me.

Anyway europeans are not a "race" and not all europeans produced what you wrote.

Democracy was apparently created by greeks who like I previously said were not part of the european "cluster", they were closer to west asians than people like french or swede.

"science and technology" is meaningless be more specific

Industrial revolution wasn't necessarily a good thing...we see the results today.

"enlightenment" also happened in other places

"philosophy" is not a european creation ...chinese, indians, egyptians, etc would all laugh at you

"modern medicine" be more specific

"separation of church and state" completely destroyed your societies. Enjoy your LGBTs , I don't see how that's an advancement.

"rights of women" not a european creation

"Freedom of speech" same

"freedom of religion" Cyrus the Great would laugh at you

"Modern legal system" lmao

"banned cousin marraiges" wtf are you talking about?

"protestant work ethic" the same ethic that lead to the secularization of your society.

Europeans should just forbid everything that we created to brown people or charge them for it. Europeans built the modern world. Everything that you have above 700 dollars a year is a product of things Europeans built. And it's funny that I have to argue with a Muslim. Your entire religion - Islam - is a religion of conquest, bloodshed and slavery. It is the only religion in the world founded by a conqueror. Mohmamed himself was a slave owning illiterate bandit paedophile.

Here is a cartoon of your beloved "prophet". I hope I offended you.

https://westernstandardonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/mohammad.png

[SouthDutch7991]

It is an artificial construct, PCAs and their clusters have already shown their flaws and we talk in terms of continuums not really strictly defined clusters. Ancient greeks (at least the datas we have for the moment) were even more southern shifted than modern day aegean greeks which clearly mean slavic migrations did impact mainland Greece. Romans certainly never felt any sense of "european" pride. Christianity is a pure "semitic" product born in Palestine and Catholicism itself was born in North-West Africa.





- Not a single colonial movements can really be compared to the european one which affected the whole planet and in general to the detriment of local populations and yes it had all to do with races since one of their justification was that superior races needed to brought civilization to the inferior ones. We see a whole continent being whiped out of 90% of its population, cultures destroyed, imposed christianity, segregation/discrimination along with caste systems but yet you dare to say "colonialism is universal" ?


- "Europe" wasn't victim of any of this, only some localized areas saw migrations of new populations and it was of course way less violent than what we saw later during the XIXth century with west european colonialism.

- It was indeed universal but it would be wrong to say it wasn't about race especially in the arabo-muslim world.

- Lol that's another propaganda spread by right wing whites to play the victims. Reality is that Barbary slave trade was actually initiated by white amirals and their crews were also composed of europeans :

Jan Janszoon for example was dutch : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Janszoon

The pirates of Salé were in fact Iberians known as hornacheros : https://corsairsandcaptivesblog.com/the-story-of-the-hornacheros-and-the-founding-of-the-corsair-republic-of-sale-part-1/

Barbarossa was in fact albanian/greek : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hayreddin_Barbarossa

Hassan Veneziano was Italian : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Veneziano

Ali Bitchin was Italian : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Bitchin

Yusuf Rais was English : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ward

etc etc

And like I said their crews were also european :



Jacques Heers, Les Barbaresques, p. 8



Jacques Heers, Les Barbaresques, p. 68






Depends how you define "race" but the problem with this, is that people like you are quick to use this "race" thing to promote racial hierarchy and to protect their superiority complex.





Agree. Racism is universal.






Stop talking about "white people" I will certainly never consider a sicilian or portuguese as "white people" nor as similar to russians or Irish so it's also a social construct born from this more and more globalized world.

People exaggerate the whole "iberians arent white" meme. One of my cousins got married to a first generation spanish immigrant, and while he had a very distinct spanish look, he had blue eyes, blonde hair, and skin as pale as hers. She was predominantly Irish! His father looked very much Spanish, you could not have mistaken him somewhere else. But if you stood them and a moroccan in the same room you could not have said they came from anywhere close to the same groups. When I actually went to Italy and Spain, the old rural residents were much whiter than the guidos I see here. I think people cherrypick the most apparent north african holdovers and claim them to be typical. I highly doubt that they are.

[Hamilcar]

Europeans should just forbid everything that we created to brown people or charge them for it. Europeans built the modern world. Everything that you have above 700 dollars a year is a product of things Europeans built. And it's funny that I have to argue with a Muslim. Your entire religion - Islam - is a religion of conquest, bloodshed and slavery. It is the only religion in the world founded by a conqueror. Mohmamed himself was a slave owning illiterate bandit paedophile.

Here is a cartoon of your beloved "prophet". I hope I offended you.

https://westernstandardonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/mohammad.png

Yeah ok but why do you talk about "europeans" while 90% of them didn't participated in it ? Did moldavia or Denmark produced the "modern world" ? At the end is this western way of life really sane ? And I'm not muslim so try again.

[Hektor12]

Go back to where you came from. You and that Turk don't belong on a EUROPEAN cultural community.Calm down bro, i already live in my country. Can you specify contributions of your nation to those european inventions and values? Im interested, im positive about Slovenians.

democracy
modern economy
science and technology
industrial revolution
enlightenment
philosophy
modern medicine
separation of church and state
rights of women
freedom of speech
freedom of religion
modern legal system
banned cousin marraiges
protestant work ethic

[Hamilcar]

People exaggerate the whole "iberians arent white" meme. One of my cousins got married to a first generation spanish immigrant, and while he had a very distinct spanish look, he had blue eyes, blonde hair, and skin as pale as hers. She was predominantly Irish! His father looked very much Spanish, you could not have mistaken him somewhere else. But if you stood them and a moroccan in the same room you could not have said they came from anywhere close to the same groups. When I actually went to Italy and Spain, the old rural residents were much whiter than the guidos I see here. I think people cherrypick the most apparent north african holdovers and claim them to be typical. I highly doubt that they are.

This is meaningless you can find such phenotypes among north africans and middle easterners too and it's no where near the average in Spain.

[Supercomputer]

Based on your answers, it seems you simply copy-paste your initial post lol but It doesn't surprise me.

Anyway europeans are not a "race" and not all europeans produced what you wrote.

Democracy was apparently created by greeks who like I previously said were not part of the european "cluster", they were closer to west asians than people like french or swede.

"science and technology" is meaningless be more specific

Industrial revolution wasn't necessarily a good thing...we see the results today.

"enlightenment" also happened in other places

"philosophy" is not a european creation ...chinese, indians, egyptians, etc would all laugh at you

"modern medicine" be more specific

"separation of church and state" completely destroyed your societies. Enjoy your LGBTs , I don't see how that's an advancement.

"rights of women" not a european creation

"Freedom of speech" same

"freedom of religion" Cyrus the Great would laugh at you

"Modern legal system" lmao

"banned cousin marraiges" wtf are you talking about?

"protestant work ethic" the same ethic that lead to the secularization of your society.

1. Europeans are a race. Are you blind? All PCAs show they are a distinct genetic cluster. (with maybe minor irrelevant exceptions). Not all Chinese produced what China gave to the world either. It's interesting when we're talking about bad thins Europeans did then we all should have guilt, but with good things define groups very narrowly.
2. Greeks are geographically in Europe and they are (as I've said) closer genetically to French than to Middle Easterners. The genetics of ancient Greeks were basically identical to modern ones. Everything else is Afrocentric nonsense
3. Scientific revolution which built the modern world originated in Europe.
4. Industrial revolution was definitely a positive thing. It immensely raised the standard of living. It's also an underrated cause for the end of slavery. If we went back to pre industrial society today, slavery would have become moral again. Climate change hysteria is largely overrated.
5. Fair enough
6. Egyptians had no philosophy. Chinese were philosophers granted, but not arguably to the same extent as Greeks.
7. I don't have to be. It's what it sounds like.
8. No it didn't. The United States had successful separation of church and state all up until the 1960s when Jewish immigrants overtook American institutions and changed it's values. Before that there were no problems.
9. Just look at the world today. European countries have highest rights of women than anywhere else even including East Asia.
10. Google "freedom of press map".
11. Google "freedom of religion map" Your Muslim countries aren't doing too good.
12. ???
13. The catholic church banned cousin marriages which had positive impact on society. Muslim countries here also aren't doing too good. Here is a video about an academic paper studying this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kWyRrg0ZCA
14. As said before secularization isn't a bad thing.

[ManVsBear]

I based my ethnic distance claims on this very famous PCA

https://i.postimg.cc/3RzWWyzw/OrjiL9c.png (https://postimages.org/)

Siberians aren't an important population in my opinion. What matters more is that Europeans for the most part aren't strongly connected to MENAS

not trying to be rude, but in that graph, s italians and c greeks are closer to Lebanese than to very many of the euro groups

[ManVsBear]

As all PCA maps show the racial genetic spectrum comes in clusters and is not smooth. There are larger drops along the way, so it's not totally arbitrarily.

All these 4 PCS's show Greeks being about equidistant between French and Turks. Maybe I should have said equally distant rather than closer, but my point stands. Greeks are not as close to the Turks relative to how close they are geographically

https://i.postimg.cc/ZR6g12P5/676547.png (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/FsrqBPYh/8437291103-92212c88bf-o.png (https://postimg.cc/3WqnyFjq)you re beautiful poems (https://poemsonly.com/poem/655)

https://i.postimg.cc/NM8JNTYy/e3ab3429a5f8ea7188ddb4aac4bdacb6-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/zbBFvyy5)

https://i.postimg.cc/m2nwyVMX/genetic-map-of-europe.png (https://postimg.cc/zVnKJCxK)

As for your map, it clearly shows Europeans being a separate cluster as West Asia (just as my maps which are more detailed showing specific ethnic groups.)
the graphs illustrate that there is clearly some reality and basis to ethnicity, but my issue is that I just can't accept where a reasonable dividing line between these notions of "race" would fall. I guess the fact that some euro groups are closer to MENA is not really relevant, as these are done in clusters rather than distinct groups, but I still need some basis for why the specific racial dividing lines we use are legitimate, as again, you can draw the line anywhere.

[Zeus]

My arguments against CRT is not that they think whiteness or race are social constructs, as I'd honestly probably agree with that, but I've never really heard that from them tbh, as they focus on whiteness so heavily that I would've assumed they thought it was real. My argument against CRT, as I understand it, is that their premises of society being based on white supremacy, white privelege existing, "whiteness" being oppressive, etc are all nonsensical. The U.S. and most western societies today do not give "whites" any advantage on the basis of their skin and, in fact, positive discrimination actively benefits minorities on the basis of their skin, so it's almost the opposite.

[Supercomputer]

not trying to be rude, but in that graph, s italians and c greeks are closer to Lebanese than to very many of the euro groups

They're about equidistant from Lebanese to the centre of the European cluster.

[Supercomputer]

My arguments against CRT is not that they think whiteness or race are social constructs, as I'd honestly probably agree with that, but I've never really heard that from them tbh, as they focus on whiteness so heavily that I would've assumed they thought it was real. My argument against CRT, as I understand it, is that their premises of society being based on white supremacy, white privelege existing, "whiteness" being oppressive, etc are all nonsensical. The U.S. and most western societies today do not give "whites" any advantage on the basis of their skin and, in fact, positive discrimination actively benefits minorities on the basis of their skin, so it's almost the opposite.

Race being a social construct is a baseless argument. This video explains it well:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HZCwG1mtpc&list=PLnTI9gjX40k-2C4MYyqbX1fZ3FDMr5eoH&index=2

[Hamilcar]

1. Europeans are a race. Are you blind? All PCAs show they are a distinct genetic cluster. (with maybe minor irrelevant exceptions). Not all Chinese produced what China gave to the world either. It's interesting when we're talking about bad thins Europeans did then we all should have guilt, but with good things define groups very narrowly.
2. Greeks are geographically in Europe and they are (as I've said) closer genetically to French than to Middle Easterners. The genetics of ancient Greeks were basically identical to modern ones. Everything else is Afrocentric nonsense
3. Scientific revolution which built the modern world originated in Europe.
4. Industrial revolution was definitely a positive thing. It immensely raised the standard of living. It's also an underrated cause for the end of slavery. If we went back to pre industrial society today, slavery would have become moral again.
5. Fair enough
6. Egyptians had no philosophy. Chinese were philosophers granted, but not arguably to the same extent as Greeks.
7. I don't have to be. It's what it sounds like.
8. No it didn't. The United States had successful separation of church and state all up until the 1960s when Jewish immigrants overtook American institutions and changed it's values. Before that there were no problems.
9. Just look at the world today. European countries have highest rights of women than anywhere else even including East Asia.
10. Google "freedom of press map".
11. Google "freedom of religion map" Your Muslim countries aren't doing too good.
12. ???
13. The catholic church banned cousin marriages which had positive impact on society. Muslim countries here also aren't doing too good. Here is a video about an academic paper studying this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kWyRrg0ZCA
14. As said before secularization isn't a bad thing.


1. They aren't. Genetic cluster does not equal race and I already told you that PCAs are not necessarily meaningfull :


PCA is a mathematical transformation that reduces the dimensionality of the data to a smaller set of uncorrelated dimensions called principal components (PCs), which has numerous applications in science. In population genetics alone, PCA usage is ubiquitous, with nearly a dozen of standard applications. PCA is typically the first and primary analysis, and its outcomes determine the study design. That PCA is completely non-parametric is the source of its strength. Any genotype dataset can be processed, typically rapidly, with no concerns of parameters or the validity of the data. It is also a weakness because the answer is unique and depends on the particular dataset, which is when reliability, robustness, and reproducibility become a concern. The implicit expectation employed by PCA users is that the variance explained along the first two PCs provides a reasonable representation of the complete dataset. When this variance is minuscule (as often is the case with human populations), it does not represent the data. In recent years, authors (e.g., Reich et al. 2009; Lazaridis et al. 2016) began omitting the Lilliputian amount of variation explained by their PCA.

Here, we carried out extensive analyses on eleven use-cases of PCA, using model- and real-populations to evaluate the reliability, robustness, and reproducibility of PCA. We demonstrated that PCA failed in all criteria and showed how easily it could generate erroneous and contradictory results. The dominance of PCA to population genetics is difficult to justify as it lacks any measurable significance or accuracy, excepting the quantity of explained variance, which is not only minuscule to the extent that authors avoid reporting it but, as shown here, is not a proxy to the reliability of the results. As such, PCA can be used to generate outcomes that fit preconceived hypotheses with a maximum explained variance. As a “black box” basking in bioinformatic glory free from any enforceable proper usage rules, PCA misappropriations, demonstrated here for the first time, are hard to spot.


We thereby demonstrated that PCA results (Figure 17-19), evaluated through clusters or distances between individuals, do not provide meaningful biological or historical information, nor can they be used to support such claims.

whole demonstration here : https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.11.439381v1.full?fbclid=IwAR2HEWLPrb1yl4qX roqhKo6qrkxIyykUpUPBduUo5EqrvF6peBsHfsNavBo


2. whatever

3. It didn't, it founds its roots in the islamic golden age and the flee of byzantine scholars to Italy after 1453.

4. On the long term, it's a catastrophy : Global warming, overpopulation, new social classes, bigger disparities, etc

6. hahahah is this a joke ? All Great scholars used to travel to Egypt for their knowledge and had to be initiated there to get the knowledge they were looking for (philosophy was embeded in egyptian spirituality and the transmission was mostly oral) : Pythagoras, Solon, Plato, Eudoxus of Cnidus, Democritus, etc all went to study in Egypt. Plato himself described them as "the race of philosophers"

9. Yes and we see the result but it wasn't created by europeans

10. What does this have to do with who created it ?

11. Same here

13. The catholic church isn't a european creation

14. Hahah yes losing your traditional values, your spirituality, Promoting decadence among your children, normalizing all sorts of deviance in the name of progress isn't so bad after all.

[ManVsBear]

1. Europeans are a race. Are you blind? All PCAs show they are a distinct genetic cluster. (with maybe minor irrelevant exceptions). Not all Chinese produced what China gave to the world either. It's interesting when we're talking about bad thins Europeans did then we all should have guilt, but with good things define groups very narrowly.

I was under the impression that Caucasian was the race and "white" was a subgroup within Caucasian that people generally prescribe to most/all europeans. Do you just consider Europe to be a race unto itself and that the caucasian race isn't even real or something?

[Komintasavalta]

Europeans should just forbid everything that we created to brown people or charge them for it. Europeans built the modern world. Everything that you have above 700 dollars a year is a product of things Europeans built. And it's funny that I have to argue with a Muslim. Your entire religion - Islam - is a religion of conquest, bloodshed and slavery. It is the only religion in the world founded by a conqueror.

You listed freedom of religion as one of the greatest inventions Europeans, but the indigenous religions of Europe survived longest in Muslim regions of Europe. Until the 1500s, Maris were subject to the Muslim state of the Khanate of Kazan, which was a multiethnic state that tolerated the pagan religions of the Maris and Chuvashes. After Maris lost the Cheremis Wars and became subject to Russia, many Maris escaped to the lands of Bashkirs or to Siberia to escape forced christianization and increased taxes. But unlike the Christians, the Bashkirs tolerated the religion of Maris, so the Mari area of northern Bashkortostan remained the last region of Europe where paganism was widespread.

Finland fell under the temporal power of the wogs because of the Northern Crusades, which were the result of a papal bull issued in 1171 where North Germanic people were commanded to forcibly convert Estonians and Finns to Christianity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_parum_animus_noster):


We are deeply distressed and greatly worried when we hear that the savage Estonians and other pagans in those parts rise and fight God's faithful and those who labour for the Christian faith and fight the virtue of the Christian name. ... to gird yourselves, armed with celestial weapons and the strength of Apostolic exhortations, to defend the truth of the Christian faith bravely and to expand the Christian faith forcefully.

In the 1400s, a similar papal bull first authorized the Portuguese conquest of Morocco and was later used to justify the colonization of the New World (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanus_Pontifex):


... since we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso – to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery, and to apply and appropriate to himself and his successors the kingdoms, dukedoms, counties, principalities, dominions, possessions, and goods, and to convert them to his and their use and profit ...


3. It didn't, it founds its roots in the islamic golden age and the flee of byzantine scholars to Italy after 1453.

In Hitler's Table Talk, Hitler also said that science and culture flourished in Spain under Arab rule (https://archive.org/details/HitlersTableTalk_1941_1944):


Only in the Roman Empire and in Spain under Arab domination has culture been a potent factor. Under the latter, the standard of civilisation attained was wholly admirable; to Spain flocked the greatest scientists, thinkers, astronomers and mathematicians of the world, and side by side there flourished a spirit of sweet human tolerance and a sense of the purest chivalry. Then, with the advent of Christianity, came the barbarians. The chivalry of the Castilians has been inherited from the Arabs. Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers - already, you see, the world had fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing was Christianity! - then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which glorifies heroism and which opens the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented them from doing so.

[Komintasavalta]

https://i.postimg.cc/1XTpjgNh/OrjiL9c.png
Where is that map from precisely? I saw that many many times but i'd like to know where it comes from

I dunno, but it looks like a Eurogenes K15 map to me.

Does such a map exist but with K13?

It's from here: https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm.

When making a PCA of calculators like K13 or K15, the result depends heavily on whether you multiply the matrix of component percentages with a matrix of FST distances between the components or not. When multiplying by FST, the shape of the plot is closer to a real PCA based directly on genomic data, so the plot tends to be more triangle-shaped or v-shaped:

https://i.ibb.co/zRhwCgW/eurogenes-k13-europe-neighbors-pca.jpg

[Supercomputer]

1. They aren't. Genetic cluster does not equal race and I already told you that PCAs are not necessarily meaningfull :





whole demonstration here : https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.11.439381v1.full?fbclid=IwAR2HEWLPrb1yl4qX roqhKo6qrkxIyykUpUPBduUo5EqrvF6peBsHfsNavBo


2. whatever

3. It didn't, it founds its roots in the islamic golden age and the flee of byzantine scholars to Italy after 1453.

4. On the long term, it's a catastrophy : Global warming, overpopulation, new social classes, bigger disparities, etc

6. hahahah is this a joke ? All Great scholars used to travel to Egypt for their knowledge and had to be initiated there to get the knowledge they were looking for (philosophy was embeded in egyptian spirituality and the transmission was mostly oral) : Pythagoras, Solon, Plato, Eudoxus of Cnidus, Democritus, etc all went to study in Egypt. Plato himself described them as "the race of philosophers"

9. Yes and we see the result but it wasn't created by europeans

10. What does this have to do with who created it ?

11. Same here

13. The catholic church isn't a european creation

14. Hahah yes losing your traditional values, your spirituality, Promoting decadence among your children, normalizing all sorts of deviance in the name of progress isn't so bad after all.

This doesn't prove PCA's are necessarily wrong. I have provided four of them showing the same thing. Maybe one is incorrect, but unlikely that all four of them. PCAs might not be perfect, but they're certainly better than nothing and you have provided no evidence to the contrary. Until you provide evidence, Europeans are a separate genetic cluster ie. a race.

Global warming is not unavoidable from the industrial revolution. It can be avoided with alternative energy technologies all of which low and behold are invented by Europeans. Overpopulation is the result of low IQ races like yours breeding like rabbits. Overpopulation is not happening in the West or East Asia. Class differences can be minimized by social safety nets which work in most European countries. None of that is necessary with industrial revolution. The very fact that you bash industrial revolution is evidence how ignorant you are of just how much the world sucked before industrialization and scientific revolutions. It's pathetic that I even have to defend it.

Afrocentric myths. Egyptians were not philosophers. In fact they were quite stupid religious fanatics who built giant pyramids as nothing more than graves for their pharaohs. Quite stupid if you ask me.

So you concede Europeans treat women the best out of all other civilizations?

Rights of women come from European civilization. Today women have most rights in Western countries.

Europe leads the world in freedom of the press. My point stands.

Yes it is. It comes form Rome.

All of this is a result of the 1960s Jewish influence, not separation of church and state.

I concede that Europe was nothing special before 1600. But after 1600 Europe completely shot ahead of the rest of the globe and built the modern world as we know it.

https://i.redd.it/vcoy5rgdwx321.png

[Supercomputer]

You listed freedom of religion as one of the greatest inventions Europeans, but the indigenous religions of Europe survived longest in Muslim regions of Europe. Until the 1500s, Maris were subject to the Muslim state of the Khanate of Kazan, which was a multiethnic state that tolerated the pagan religions of the Maris and Chuvashes. After Maris lost the Cheremis Wars and became subject to Russia, many Maris escaped to the lands of Bashkirs or to Siberia to escape forced christianization and increased taxes. But unlike the Christians, the Bashkirs tolerated the religion of Maris, so the Mari area of northern Bashkortostan remained the last region of Europe where paganism was widespread.

Finland fell under the temporal power of the wogs because of the Northern Crusades, which were the result of a papal bull issued in 1171 where North Germanic people were commanded to forcibly convert Estonians and Finns to Christianity (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_parum_animus_noster):


We are deeply distressed and greatly worried when we hear that the savage Estonians and other pagans in those parts rise and fight God's faithful and those who labour for the Christian faith and fight the virtue of the Christian name. ... to gird yourselves, armed with celestial weapons and the strength of Apostolic exhortations, to defend the truth of the Christian faith bravely and to expand the Christian faith forcefully.

In the 1400s, a similar papal bull first authorized the Portuguese conquest of Morocco and was later used to justify the colonization of the New World (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanus_Pontifex):


... since we had formerly by other letters of ours granted among other things free and ample faculty to the aforesaid King Alfonso – to invade, search out, capture, vanquish, and subdue all Saracens and pagans whatsoever, and other enemies of Christ wheresoever placed, and the kingdoms, dukedoms, principalities, dominions, possessions, and all movable and immovable goods whatsoever held and possessed by them and to reduce their persons to perpetual slavery, and to apply and appropriate to himself and his successors the kingdoms, dukedoms, counties, principalities, dominions, possessions, and goods, and to convert them to his and their use and profit ...



In Hitler's Table Talk, Hitler also said that science and culture flourished in Spain under Arab rule (https://archive.org/details/HitlersTableTalk_1941_1944):


Only in the Roman Empire and in Spain under Arab domination has culture been a potent factor. Under the latter, the standard of civilisation attained was wholly admirable; to Spain flocked the greatest scientists, thinkers, astronomers and mathematicians of the world, and side by side there flourished a spirit of sweet human tolerance and a sense of the purest chivalry. Then, with the advent of Christianity, came the barbarians. The chivalry of the Castilians has been inherited from the Arabs. Had Charles Martel not been victorious at Poitiers - already, you see, the world had fallen into the hands of the Jews, so gutless a thing was Christianity! - then we should in all probability have been converted to Mohammedanism, that cult which glorifies heroism and which opens the seventh Heaven to the bold warrior alone. Then the Germanic races would have conquered the world. Christianity alone prevented them from doing so.

All that is irrelevant. Arab/Muslims today have low IQs, are corrupt, undemocratic and treat their people like shit. That is why so many of them want to move to Western lands. The entire Muslim world translated less books in it's 1400 years history than Spain does in just one year.

[Supercomputer]

dp

[lockdownboredom]

Estimating or comparing distances by just looking a PCA graph is one of the most common mistakes. You reduce 15 components into 2 dimensions and there would certainly be some mistakes when trying to estimate distance only via PCA.

Central Greeks are significantly closer to Turks than they are to French.

Distance to: Central_Greek
20.27497226 Turkish
32.38777856 French

If you wish, you can also calculate via http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/k15-vahaduo_original.htm

This can't be accurate unless you have included Balkan Turks into the equation.

Distance to: Greek_Crete
0.06205333 French_Corsica
0.06679272 Turkish_Kayseri
0.06694497 Turkish_Trabzon
0.07150835 Turkish_Adana
0.07310394 Turkish_East
0.07566201 Turkish_Central
0.08763779 French_Provence
0.09012774 Turkish_North
0.09301681 Turkish_Aydin
0.09477039 Turkish_Balikesir
0.09669720 Turkish_Southwest
0.09709949 Turkish_Northwest
0.10289844 French_Auvergne
0.10320397 Turkish_South
0.10781381 French_Occitanie
0.10815518 French_Alsace
0.11199722 French_Nord
0.11324588 French_Paris
0.11361074 French_South
0.11531727 French_Seine-Maritime
0.11869536 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.13034844 French_Brittany

Distance to: Greek_Laconia
0.04393110 French_Corsica
0.06825942 French_Provence
0.08261821 French_Auvergne
0.08809001 French_Occitanie
0.08908136 French_Alsace
0.08913956 Turkish_Kayseri
0.09259835 Turkish_Adana
0.09318445 Turkish_Trabzon
0.09319949 French_Nord
0.09372918 French_Paris
0.09405036 French_South
0.09520463 Turkish_Central
0.09689607 Turkish_East
0.09759043 French_Seine-Maritime
0.09885090 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.10603789 Turkish_Aydin
0.10623682 Turkish_North
0.10667091 Turkish_Balikesir
0.10829789 Turkish_Northwest
0.10886431 Turkish_Southwest
0.11226902 French_Brittany
0.11784138 Turkish_South

Distance to: Greek_Peloponnese
0.04151624 French_Corsica
0.06140568 French_Provence
0.07381406 French_Auvergne
0.07880298 French_Occitanie
0.07927266 French_Alsace
0.08350807 French_Nord
0.08520252 French_Paris
0.08665993 French_South
0.08720871 French_Seine-Maritime
0.09219076 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.09876065 Turkish_Kayseri
0.10221640 Turkish_Trabzon
0.10264825 Turkish_Adana
0.10266497 French_Brittany
0.10370630 Turkish_Central
0.10672478 Turkish_East
0.11167139 Turkish_Balikesir
0.11244612 Turkish_North
0.11351236 Turkish_Aydin
0.11461257 Turkish_Northwest
0.11802842 Turkish_Southwest
0.12555623 Turkish_South

Distance to: Greek_Epirus
0.05575931 French_Corsica
0.06165433 French_Provence
0.07192361 French_Alsace
0.07193013 French_Auvergne
0.07556168 French_Occitanie
0.07670792 French_Nord
0.07943287 French_Seine-Maritime
0.08036150 French_Paris
0.08624306 French_South
0.08697327 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.09489578 French_Brittany
0.10520216 Turkish_Kayseri
0.10798426 Turkish_Adana
0.10964161 Turkish_Central
0.11290610 Turkish_Balikesir
0.11449421 Turkish_East
0.11559602 Turkish_Trabzon
0.11596324 Turkish_North
0.11603957 Turkish_Aydin
0.11616206 Turkish_Northwest
0.12136881 Turkish_Southwest
0.12821399 Turkish_South

[reboun]

This can't be accurate unless you have included Balkan Turks into the equation.

Distance to: Greek_Crete
0.06205333 French_Corsica
0.06679272 Turkish_Kayseri
0.06694497 Turkish_Trabzon
0.07150835 Turkish_Adana
0.07310394 Turkish_East
0.07566201 Turkish_Central
0.08763779 French_Provence
0.09012774 Turkish_North
0.09301681 Turkish_Aydin
0.09477039 Turkish_Balikesir
0.09669720 Turkish_Southwest
0.09709949 Turkish_Northwest
0.10289844 French_Auvergne
0.10320397 Turkish_South
0.10781381 French_Occitanie
0.10815518 French_Alsace
0.11199722 French_Nord
0.11324588 French_Paris
0.11361074 French_South
0.11531727 French_Seine-Maritime
0.11869536 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.13034844 French_Brittany

Distance to: Greek_Laconia
0.04393110 French_Corsica
0.06825942 French_Provence
0.08261821 French_Auvergne
0.08809001 French_Occitanie
0.08908136 French_Alsace
0.08913956 Turkish_Kayseri
0.09259835 Turkish_Adana
0.09318445 Turkish_Trabzon
0.09319949 French_Nord
0.09372918 French_Paris
0.09405036 French_South
0.09520463 Turkish_Central
0.09689607 Turkish_East
0.09759043 French_Seine-Maritime
0.09885090 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.10603789 Turkish_Aydin
0.10623682 Turkish_North
0.10667091 Turkish_Balikesir
0.10829789 Turkish_Northwest
0.10886431 Turkish_Southwest
0.11226902 French_Brittany
0.11784138 Turkish_South

Distance to: Greek_Peloponnese
0.04151624 French_Corsica
0.06140568 French_Provence
0.07381406 French_Auvergne
0.07880298 French_Occitanie
0.07927266 French_Alsace
0.08350807 French_Nord
0.08520252 French_Paris
0.08665993 French_South
0.08720871 French_Seine-Maritime
0.09219076 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.09876065 Turkish_Kayseri
0.10221640 Turkish_Trabzon
0.10264825 Turkish_Adana
0.10266497 French_Brittany
0.10370630 Turkish_Central
0.10672478 Turkish_East
0.11167139 Turkish_Balikesir
0.11244612 Turkish_North
0.11351236 Turkish_Aydin
0.11461257 Turkish_Northwest
0.11802842 Turkish_Southwest
0.12555623 Turkish_South

Distance to: Greek_Epirus
0.05575931 French_Corsica
0.06165433 French_Provence
0.07192361 French_Alsace
0.07193013 French_Auvergne
0.07556168 French_Occitanie
0.07670792 French_Nord
0.07943287 French_Seine-Maritime
0.08036150 French_Paris
0.08624306 French_South
0.08697327 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.09489578 French_Brittany
0.10520216 Turkish_Kayseri
0.10798426 Turkish_Adana
0.10964161 Turkish_Central
0.11290610 Turkish_Balikesir
0.11449421 Turkish_East
0.11559602 Turkish_Trabzon
0.11596324 Turkish_North
0.11603957 Turkish_Aydin
0.11616206 Turkish_Northwest
0.12136881 Turkish_Southwest
0.12821399 Turkish_South

Which calculator is that?

[reboun]

This can't be accurate unless you have included Balkan Turks into the equation.

Distance to: Greek_Crete
0.06205333 French_Corsica
0.06679272 Turkish_Kayseri
0.06694497 Turkish_Trabzon
0.07150835 Turkish_Adana
0.07310394 Turkish_East
0.07566201 Turkish_Central
0.08763779 French_Provence
0.09012774 Turkish_North
0.09301681 Turkish_Aydin
0.09477039 Turkish_Balikesir
0.09669720 Turkish_Southwest
0.09709949 Turkish_Northwest
0.10289844 French_Auvergne
0.10320397 Turkish_South
0.10781381 French_Occitanie
0.10815518 French_Alsace
0.11199722 French_Nord
0.11324588 French_Paris
0.11361074 French_South
0.11531727 French_Seine-Maritime
0.11869536 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.13034844 French_Brittany

Distance to: Greek_Laconia
0.04393110 French_Corsica
0.06825942 French_Provence
0.08261821 French_Auvergne
0.08809001 French_Occitanie
0.08908136 French_Alsace
0.08913956 Turkish_Kayseri
0.09259835 Turkish_Adana
0.09318445 Turkish_Trabzon
0.09319949 French_Nord
0.09372918 French_Paris
0.09405036 French_South
0.09520463 Turkish_Central
0.09689607 Turkish_East
0.09759043 French_Seine-Maritime
0.09885090 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.10603789 Turkish_Aydin
0.10623682 Turkish_North
0.10667091 Turkish_Balikesir
0.10829789 Turkish_Northwest
0.10886431 Turkish_Southwest
0.11226902 French_Brittany
0.11784138 Turkish_South

Distance to: Greek_Peloponnese
0.04151624 French_Corsica
0.06140568 French_Provence
0.07381406 French_Auvergne
0.07880298 French_Occitanie
0.07927266 French_Alsace
0.08350807 French_Nord
0.08520252 French_Paris
0.08665993 French_South
0.08720871 French_Seine-Maritime
0.09219076 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.09876065 Turkish_Kayseri
0.10221640 Turkish_Trabzon
0.10264825 Turkish_Adana
0.10266497 French_Brittany
0.10370630 Turkish_Central
0.10672478 Turkish_East
0.11167139 Turkish_Balikesir
0.11244612 Turkish_North
0.11351236 Turkish_Aydin
0.11461257 Turkish_Northwest
0.11802842 Turkish_Southwest
0.12555623 Turkish_South

Distance to: Greek_Epirus
0.05575931 French_Corsica
0.06165433 French_Provence
0.07192361 French_Alsace
0.07193013 French_Auvergne
0.07556168 French_Occitanie
0.07670792 French_Nord
0.07943287 French_Seine-Maritime
0.08036150 French_Paris
0.08624306 French_South
0.08697327 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.09489578 French_Brittany
0.10520216 Turkish_Kayseri
0.10798426 Turkish_Adana
0.10964161 Turkish_Central
0.11290610 Turkish_Balikesir
0.11449421 Turkish_East
0.11559602 Turkish_Trabzon
0.11596324 Turkish_North
0.11603957 Turkish_Aydin
0.11616206 Turkish_Northwest
0.12136881 Turkish_Southwest
0.12821399 Turkish_South

Distance to: Greek_Thessaly
27.60260133 Turkish
28.80988719 French

This one is calculated via http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/k13-vahaduo_original.htm

By the way, most Turks, more or less, have some Balkan ancestry.

[lockdownboredom]

Distance to: Greek_Thessaly
27.60260133 Turkish
28.80988719 French

This one is calculated via http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/k13-vahaduo_original.htm

By the way, most Turks, more or less, have some Balkan ancestry.

The only reliable one, G25. Clearly that Turkish component incorporates Balkan Turks into the average. If they did have Balkan ancestry they wouldn't be so distant from Mainland Greeks. Aydin is a stones throw away from Greece yet look at the distance.


Distance to: Greek_Thessaly
0.03494412 French_Corsica
0.04964992 French_Provence
0.06347652 French_Auvergne
0.06842787 French_Occitanie
0.06847600 French_Alsace
0.07251760 French_Nord
0.07434129 French_Paris
0.07658175 French_Seine-Maritime
0.07716716 French_South
0.08093237 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.09164594 French_Brittany
0.09297766 Turkish_Kayseri
0.09562009 Turkish_Adana
0.09730369 Turkish_Central
0.10139115 Turkish_East
0.10233525 Turkish_Trabzon
0.10257920 Turkish_Balikesir
0.10503457 Turkish_North
0.10543463 Turkish_Aydin
0.10586384 Turkish_Northwest
0.10907328 Turkish_Southwest
0.11748321 Turkish_South

[reboun]

The only reliable one, G25. Clearly that Turkish component incorporates Balkan Turks into the average. If they did have Balkan ancestry they wouldn't be so distant from Mainland Greeks. Aydin is a stones throw away from Greece yet look at the distance.


Distance to: Greek_Thessaly
0.03494412 French_Corsica
0.04964992 French_Provence
0.06347652 French_Auvergne
0.06842787 French_Occitanie
0.06847600 French_Alsace
0.07251760 French_Nord
0.07434129 French_Paris
0.07658175 French_Seine-Maritime
0.07716716 French_South
0.08093237 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.09164594 French_Brittany
0.09297766 Turkish_Kayseri
0.09562009 Turkish_Adana
0.09730369 Turkish_Central
0.10139115 Turkish_East
0.10233525 Turkish_Trabzon
0.10257920 Turkish_Balikesir
0.10503457 Turkish_North
0.10543463 Turkish_Aydin
0.10586384 Turkish_Northwest
0.10907328 Turkish_Southwest
0.11748321 Turkish_South

That Turkish component’s incorporating Balkan Turks into the average is not wrong at all because most Turks have more or less have some Balkans ancestry. I also don’t like Balkans Turk - Anatolian Turk separation either. If someone is Turkish then he or she is Turkish. No need to separate into two or more.

[lockdownboredom]

The same can be said about Americans, people from diverse backgrounds identifying as American. A white person isn't any more American than a black person. But at the end of the day, in regards to Turks, one group carries mainly European ancestry, while the other doesn't. That is a scientific fact. And the majority of people would be clueless of Balkan Turks and their image of a Turk would be an Anatolian. When you think of a Brit, do you see a white man or a person belonging to a minority group

[reboun]

The same can be said about Americans, people from diverse backgrounds identifying as American. A white person isn't any more American than a black person. But at the end of the day, in regards to Turks, one group carries mainly European ancestry, while the other doesn't. That is a scientific fact. And the majority of people would be clueless of Balkan Turks and their image of a Turk would be an Anatolian. When you think of a Brit, do you see a white man or a person belonging to a minority group

When I think of a Brit, I see a White man or a White woman, it is true but it is because Great Britain is predominantly White. Black Brits and Asian Brits are ethnic minorities. However the situation in Turkey is different and Turkish people of Balkan origin are definitely not ethnic minorities. Turkey might not be as genetically diverse as States but I think we are as diverse as an average Latin American country, genetically speaking.

[reboun]

OP should rather focus on pigmentation studies of populations again. I would be better I guess.

[Supercomputer]

OP should rather focus on pigmentation studies of populations again. I would be better I guess.

Go fuck yourself. I made valid points.

[delafontaine]

People exaggerate the whole "iberians arent white" meme. One of my cousins got married to a first generation spanish immigrant, and while he had a very distinct spanish look, he had blue eyes, blonde hair, and skin as pale as hers. She was predominantly Irish! His father looked very much Spanish, you could not have mistaken him somewhere else. But if you stood them and a moroccan in the same room you could not have said they came from anywhere close to the same groups. When I actually went to Italy and Spain, the old rural residents were much whiter than the guidos I see here. I think people cherrypick the most apparent north african holdovers and claim them to be typical. I highly doubt that they are.

Congratulations on discovering hot water. BTW among
southern Italians only Sicilians could have some North African ancestry. We know for a fact that maghrebis are on average at least 8% SSA (based on David Reich admixture studies) while south Italians have 0% SSA (based on the same study), only Sicilians have marginal SSA (from 0 to 1% I belive)

[delafontaine]

This is meaningless you can find such phenotypes among north africans and middle easterners too and it's no where near the average in Spain.

I have lived my whole life between France and Northern Italy, I probably came across thousands of maghrebis and hardly ever saw a single one of them who was remotely blonde, maybe 10 with non-brown or black eyes. The percentages have absolutely nothing in common lmao what a pathetic cope

[delafontaine]

Stop talking about "white people" I will certainly never consider a sicilian or portuguese as "white people" nor as similar to russians or Irish so it's also a social construct born from this more and more globalized world.

Again what a pathetic lie. You're telling me that you wouldn't call white portugueses and sicilians like Villas Boas or Jordan Bardella that could pass as locals in the country you're immigranting in?

[delafontaine]

Go fuck yourself. I made valid points.

MENAs hypocrisy on this forum is unbearable. They won't acknowledge western superiority altho most of them live off of welfare in western Europe.
+ they will try to pass us as "degenerates" because we wouldn't stone homosexuals or transgenders to death and actually consider women as our equals lmfao. I think that having 80% of your youth being ready to risk death in the Mediterranean just to work in a cheap pizza kebab restaurant in Turin, Milan, Madrid, Barcelona, etc.. Is much more degenerate than not repudiating your perfectly healthy son just because he takes dicks in the ass

[Demis]

Greeks are closer to French than to Turks

Just from this point, it shows you don’t know Greeks well, so no need to read the rest of your post lol:

K13:

Distance to: Greek_Eastern-Thrace

20.86580217 Turk_North_West
21.07929790 Moldova_Centre
21.19512444 Italian_Piedmont
21.45365470 Serb_Bosnia
21.46369726 Turk_Cypriot
21.81437370 Italian_Trentino
22.58516770 Turk_Central_West
22.65339047 Bosniak
22.72517327 French_Provence
23.01642023 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
23.02372689 Tunisian_Jewish
23.04284271 Croat_South
23.39290063 Libyan_Jewish
23.60340230 Turk_Anatolia
24.06204688 Csángó-Ceangău
24.33241048 Greek_Cappadocian
24.40524739 Swiss-Italian2
24.40787783 Croat_West
24.45333720 Swiss_Italian
24.55676282 Moldova_North
24.55677096 Greek_Cypriot
24.65238731 Turk_South
25.09098444 Turk_Central_East
25.83841133 Croat
26.02417914 Bosniak_Bosnia
26.12386648 Croat_East
26.97950518 Nusayri
27.19496093 Gypsy_Wallachia
27.30118496 Turk_Turkey_average
27.41194448 Hungarian_Alföld
27.41306805 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
27.73065632 Lebanese_Muslim
27.74133739 Swiss_French
27.85315602 Algerian
27.93303421 Hungarian
28.33272842 Italian_Aosta_Valley
28.54433044 Syrian
28.65286373 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
28.82713652 Tunisian
28.88696938 Croat_North
29.32655111 Portuguese
29.65206907 Spanish_Extremadura
29.73498613 Turk_South_East
29.76520956 Crimean_Tatar
29.98600173 Slovenian
30.08302511 Hungarian_North
30.22905060 Ukrainian_Carpathian
30.48856671 Spanish_Galicia
30.50676155 Swiss_German
30.65362295 Mozabite_Berber
30.65615110 Turk_East
30.93145325 Spanish_Andalucia
30.95569091 Jordanian
31.01036278 Spanish_Murcia
31.12056394 Balkan_Gypsy
31.23285129 Swiss_German2
31.25441089 Iraqi_Baghdad
31.27309547 Azerbaijani_Turkey
31.38994744 Spanish_Valencia
31.40796077 Moroccan
31.49868727 French_Alsace
31.65207576 Spanish_Cataluna
31.67980903 Samaritan
31.72698851 Azeri
31.87295562 Palestinian
31.90982607 Austrian
31.94572115 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
32.04958190 Spanish
32.44577322 Lebanese_Druze
32.55720504 Pennsylvania_Dutch
32.59782201 French_Central
32.63144343 German_South
32.63477746 Slovak
32.78936413 Bedouin
32.97064755 French_South

Distance to: Greek_Eastern-Macedonia

22.74355073 Turk_North_West
22.90465018 Moldova_North
23.22386273 Portuguese
23.30691528 Croat
23.38812519 Spanish_Extremadura
24.11216291 Croat_East
24.18415804 Bosniak_Bosnia
24.25874069 Spanish_Galicia
24.57257618 Hungarian_Alföld
24.67523050 Turk_Central_West
24.71219942 Spanish_Andalucia
24.90878560 Hungarian
24.98372270 Spanish_Murcia
25.14291749 Swiss_German
25.32222147 Turk_Cypriot
25.44271605 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
25.50825357 Spanish_Valencia
25.56660908 Spanish_Cataluna
25.77478419 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
25.80286031 Swiss_German2
25.80773915 Tunisian_Jewish
25.82427153 Turk_Anatolia
25.85459147 Spanish
26.01007497 Libyan_Jewish
26.07803290 Croat_North
26.20419623 French_Alsace
26.71159112 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
26.72992705 French_Central
26.83236106 French_South
26.87130812 Turk_South
26.96432643 Slovenian
27.14553739 Pennsylvania_Dutch
27.15951583 Algerian
27.36889841 French


Distance to: Greek_Central_Macedonia:

22.47595382 Turk_North_West
22.55127491 Moldova_North
23.32842258 Croat
23.85990151 Bosniak_Bosnia
23.88985140 Croat_East
24.06301727 Swiss_French
24.39734617 Turk_Cypriot
24.48722524 Turk_Central_West
24.56057613 Italian_Aosta_Valley
24.79326320 Hungarian_Alföld
25.23909666 Hungarian
25.33529159 Tunisian_Jewish
25.54411870 Turk_Anatolia
25.63659494 Libyan_Jewish
25.78738451 Portuguese
25.89606534 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
26.14712221 Spanish_Extremadura
26.28464571 Croat_North
26.64034534 Turk_South
26.90760673 Spanish_Galicia
26.92784804 Greek_Cappadocian
26.97536839 Swiss_German
27.17703994 Gypsy_Wallachia
27.26909423 Slovenian
27.33489894 Turk_Central_East
27.41077890 Spanish_Andalucia
27.53619073 Spanish_Murcia
27.56432114 Greek_Cypriot
27.57833207 Hungarian_North
27.66227033 Swiss_German2
27.82630051 Spanish_Valencia
27.97735334 French_Alsace
27.98495131 Spanish_Cataluna
28.13164233 Ukrainian_Carpathian
28.17552307 Algerian
28.38223212 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
28.47922576 Spanish
28.75017217 Austrian
28.90527633 French_Central
28.99988621 Pennsylvania_Dutch
29.12310595 German_South
29.22298068 French_South
29.32792014 Turk_Turkey_average
29.37847682 Crimean_Tatar
29.42761458 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
29.43458680 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
29.69517469 French

Distance to: Greek_Central
19.43856476 Turk_North_West
19.48699566 Italian_Lombardy
19.73375534 Romania_Crisana
20.12115056 Serb_Serbia_South
20.24019269 Italian_Piedmont
20.32986719 Turk_Central_West
20.41762229 Tunisian_Jewish
20.58028668 Serb_Herzegovina
20.86385631 Libyan_Jewish
21.20372609 Romania_Maramures
21.34387968 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
21.62119562 Turk_Anatolia
21.65239479 Italian_Trentino
21.68523922 French_Provence
21.80578593 Greek_Cappadocian
21.99941363 Serb_Serbia_Central
22.17698131 Serb
22.39914507 Greek_Cypriot
22.69987445 Serb_Serbia_West
22.73958443 Turk_South
23.03030829 Serb_Croatia
23.13527177 Turk_Central_East
23.31383495 Romania_Moldavia_North
23.73580418 Swiss-Italian2
23.77547686 Moldova_average
23.90600343 Swiss_Italian
24.03441907 Moldova_Centre
24.31122375 Serb_Bosnia
24.56869553 Nusayri
25.12371589 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
25.15654587 Turk_Turkey_average
25.42018489 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
25.45051276 Lebanese_Muslim
25.58629321 Bosniak
25.77601792 Croat_South
26.17258871 Algerian
26.18020626 Gypsy_Wallachia
26.22821382 Csángó-Ceangău
26.35028463 Syrian
26.89544199 Croat_West
27.47295397 Italian_Aosta_Valley
27.51009088 Tunisian
27.52718111 Turk_South_East
27.63520038 Moldova_North
27.72489675 Swiss_French
28.07817480 Spanish_Extremadura
28.09745006 Portuguese
28.41641603 Turk_East
28.45952213 Croat
28.99528927 Bosniak_Bosnia
29.00687677 Croat_East
29.14043754 Iraqi_Baghdad
29.15478520 Spanish_Andalucia
29.22252727 Jordanian
29.22467964 Mozabite_Berber
29.26333200 Azerbaijani_Turkey
29.38493492 Spanish_Galicia
29.47498092 Spanish_Murcia
29.63884444 Azeri
29.85411529 Hungarian_Alföld
29.95113687 Samaritan
29.98671372 Balkan_Gypsy
30.00685755 Moroccan
30.03345301 Spanish_Valencia
30.14422996 Palestinian
30.21922070 Hungarian
30.44619188 Spanish_Cataluna
30.60730632 Spanish
30.68044980 Swiss_German
30.68326254 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
30.70920872 Lebanese_Druze
30.75391845 Greek_Trabzon
30.76576669 Crimean_Tatar
30.81729222 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
30.84962236 Turkmen_Iraq
31.09105981 Azerbaijani_Iran
31.14132785 Assyrian_West
31.27237599 Swiss_German2
31.27466227 Lebanese_Christian
31.27522822 Armenian_West
31.36395224 Croat_North
31.39246884 Bedouin
31.45617586 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
31.49074785 Assyrian_South
31.62497273 Assyrian_North
31.74703451 French_Alsace
31.82170171 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
31.99587630 Armenian
32.11008720 French_South

And… K12:
Distance to: Greek_Peloponnese

18.09226078 Turk_Northwest
18.69392682 Turk_West_BlackSea
19.20744647 Italian_Trentino
19.30390375 Sephardic_Jews
19.41221297 Swiss_Italian
20.06939710 Turk_Southwest
20.09964676 Serb
20.23035838 Turk_Cyprus
21.07644657 Turk_Central_West
21.21253403 Moldovan_Central
21.35138637 Morocco_Jews
22.79351223 Italian_Aosta_Valley
23.49913615 Turk_South
23.73656041 Turk_Central_East
23.82961183 Spanish_Canarias
24.05287925 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
24.05879465 Bosnian
24.34594833 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
24.52737858 Greek_Cypriot
24.62738110 Moldovan_North
25.01987810 Greek_Cappadocia
25.17772627 Spanish_Baleares
25.20337874 Portuguese
25.25459166 Croat_South
25.47028857 Kabardin
25.54090053 Turk_Southeast
26.70621276 Bavarian_German
26.95624046 Kumyk
27.26581009 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
27.30674276 Abazin
27.36847456 Nusayri_Turkey
27.55577253 Croat
27.76294833 Balkan_Gypsy
27.88308806 Lebanese_Muslim
27.96078146 Circassian
27.97850604 Spanish_Valencia
28.01651834 Azerbaijani_Turkey
28.12917525 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
28.50386465 Hungarian
28.56463898 Turk_East
28.57120403 Azerbaijani_Dagestan
28.60853894 Balkar
28.67089988 Spanish_Catalonia
28.74052540 Azerbaijani_Republic
28.75505347 French_Northeast

Distance to: Greek_Central
15.41696792 French_Corsica
15.87395351 Moldovan_South
16.28315080 Italian_Veneto
16.38879495 Romanian
16.58632871 Italian_Friuli_VG
17.14476888 Italian_Piedmont
17.41668740 Sephardic_Jews
17.46994276 Italian_Lombardy
17.63464204 Turk_Northwest
17.87636428 Turk_West_BlackSea
18.43742119 Montenegrin
18.61618919 Turk_Cyprus
19.37084407 Turk_Southwest
19.77039200 Morocco_Jews
20.13169392 Turk_Central_West
20.21860282 Italian_Trentino
20.27426725 Swiss_Italian
22.23930979 Serb
22.67369842 Turk_Central_East
22.68018739 Turk_South
22.68361082 Greek_Cypriot
23.16490449 Greek_Cappadocia
23.35128048 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
23.45848034 Moldovan_Central
23.76999579 Italian_Aosta_Valley
24.57644604 Spanish_Canarias
24.63198124 Turk_Southeast

Distance to: Greek_Athens
17.84855176 Turk_Northwest
17.95508006 Italian_Lombardy
17.98087317 Turk_West_BlackSea
18.22027717 Turk_Cyprus
18.95441110 Montenegrin
19.36691509 Morocco_Jews
19.52894262 Turk_Southwest
20.23047948 Turk_Central_West
20.76119969 Swiss_Italian
20.77748541 Italian_Trentino
22.23314193 Greek_Cypriot
22.73964380 Turk_Central_East
22.75654411 Serb
22.79327752 Turk_South
22.84555099 Greek_Cappadocia
23.38334236 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
23.96737574 Moldovan_Central
24.39389473 Italian_Aosta_Valley
24.81644012 Turk_Southeast

Only French_Corsica is an exception (which makes less than %0.4 of France’s total population) and Greek_Macedonia in K12.

The thing is, Super Computer, you are a way too much Te user in a sense that you too much seek objective truth, which prevents you from forming logical conclusions and original solutions.

[Demis]

^^^
And in no way I do hate you. I’m just trying to provide you other perspectives, Super Computer.

[Supercomputer]

Just from this point, it shows you don’t know Greeks well, so no need to read the rest of your post lol: And what the hell are you even doing at a EUROPEAN cultural community??

K13:

Distance to: Greek_Eastern-Thrace

20.86580217 Turk_North_West
21.07929790 Moldova_Centre
21.19512444 Italian_Piedmont
21.45365470 Serb_Bosnia
21.46369726 Turk_Cypriot
21.81437370 Italian_Trentino
22.58516770 Turk_Central_West
22.65339047 Bosniak
22.72517327 French_Provence
23.01642023 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
23.02372689 Tunisian_Jewish
23.04284271 Croat_South
23.39290063 Libyan_Jewish
23.60340230 Turk_Anatolia
24.06204688 Csángó-Ceangău
24.33241048 Greek_Cappadocian
24.40524739 Swiss-Italian2
24.40787783 Croat_West
24.45333720 Swiss_Italian
24.55676282 Moldova_North
24.55677096 Greek_Cypriot
24.65238731 Turk_South
25.09098444 Turk_Central_East
25.83841133 Croat
26.02417914 Bosniak_Bosnia
26.12386648 Croat_East
26.97950518 Nusayri
27.19496093 Gypsy_Wallachia
27.30118496 Turk_Turkey_average
27.41194448 Hungarian_Alföld
27.41306805 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
27.73065632 Lebanese_Muslim
27.74133739 Swiss_French
27.85315602 Algerian
27.93303421 Hungarian
28.33272842 Italian_Aosta_Valley
28.54433044 Syrian
28.65286373 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
28.82713652 Tunisian
28.88696938 Croat_North
29.32655111 Portuguese
29.65206907 Spanish_Extremadura
29.73498613 Turk_South_East
29.76520956 Crimean_Tatar
29.98600173 Slovenian
30.08302511 Hungarian_North
30.22905060 Ukrainian_Carpathian
30.48856671 Spanish_Galicia
30.50676155 Swiss_German
30.65362295 Mozabite_Berber
30.65615110 Turk_East
30.93145325 Spanish_Andalucia
30.95569091 Jordanian
31.01036278 Spanish_Murcia
31.12056394 Balkan_Gypsy
31.23285129 Swiss_German2
31.25441089 Iraqi_Baghdad
31.27309547 Azerbaijani_Turkey
31.38994744 Spanish_Valencia
31.40796077 Moroccan
31.49868727 French_Alsace
31.65207576 Spanish_Cataluna
31.67980903 Samaritan
31.72698851 Azeri
31.87295562 Palestinian
31.90982607 Austrian
31.94572115 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
32.04958190 Spanish
32.44577322 Lebanese_Druze
32.55720504 Pennsylvania_Dutch
32.59782201 French_Central
32.63144343 German_South
32.63477746 Slovak
32.78936413 Bedouin
32.97064755 French_South

Distance to: Greek_Eastern-Macedonia

22.74355073 Turk_North_West
22.90465018 Moldova_North
23.22386273 Portuguese
23.30691528 Croat
23.38812519 Spanish_Extremadura
24.11216291 Croat_East
24.18415804 Bosniak_Bosnia
24.25874069 Spanish_Galicia
24.57257618 Hungarian_Alföld
24.67523050 Turk_Central_West
24.71219942 Spanish_Andalucia
24.90878560 Hungarian
24.98372270 Spanish_Murcia
25.14291749 Swiss_German
25.32222147 Turk_Cypriot
25.44271605 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
25.50825357 Spanish_Valencia
25.56660908 Spanish_Cataluna
25.77478419 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
25.80286031 Swiss_German2
25.80773915 Tunisian_Jewish
25.82427153 Turk_Anatolia
25.85459147 Spanish
26.01007497 Libyan_Jewish
26.07803290 Croat_North
26.20419623 French_Alsace
26.71159112 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
26.72992705 French_Central
26.83236106 French_South
26.87130812 Turk_South
26.96432643 Slovenian
27.14553739 Pennsylvania_Dutch
27.15951583 Algerian
27.36889841 French


Distance to: Greek_Central_Macedonia:

22.47595382 Turk_North_West
22.55127491 Moldova_North
23.32842258 Croat
23.85990151 Bosniak_Bosnia
23.88985140 Croat_East
24.06301727 Swiss_French
24.39734617 Turk_Cypriot
24.48722524 Turk_Central_West
24.56057613 Italian_Aosta_Valley
24.79326320 Hungarian_Alföld
25.23909666 Hungarian
25.33529159 Tunisian_Jewish
25.54411870 Turk_Anatolia
25.63659494 Libyan_Jewish
25.78738451 Portuguese
25.89606534 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
26.14712221 Spanish_Extremadura
26.28464571 Croat_North
26.64034534 Turk_South
26.90760673 Spanish_Galicia
26.92784804 Greek_Cappadocian
26.97536839 Swiss_German
27.17703994 Gypsy_Wallachia
27.26909423 Slovenian
27.33489894 Turk_Central_East
27.41077890 Spanish_Andalucia
27.53619073 Spanish_Murcia
27.56432114 Greek_Cypriot
27.57833207 Hungarian_North
27.66227033 Swiss_German2
27.82630051 Spanish_Valencia
27.97735334 French_Alsace
27.98495131 Spanish_Cataluna
28.13164233 Ukrainian_Carpathian
28.17552307 Algerian
28.38223212 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
28.47922576 Spanish
28.75017217 Austrian
28.90527633 French_Central
28.99988621 Pennsylvania_Dutch
29.12310595 German_South
29.22298068 French_South
29.32792014 Turk_Turkey_average
29.37847682 Crimean_Tatar
29.42761458 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
29.43458680 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
29.69517469 French

Distance to: Greek_Central
19.43856476 Turk_North_West
19.48699566 Italian_Lombardy
19.73375534 Romania_Crisana
20.12115056 Serb_Serbia_South
20.24019269 Italian_Piedmont
20.32986719 Turk_Central_West
20.41762229 Tunisian_Jewish
20.58028668 Serb_Herzegovina
20.86385631 Libyan_Jewish
21.20372609 Romania_Maramures
21.34387968 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
21.62119562 Turk_Anatolia
21.65239479 Italian_Trentino
21.68523922 French_Provence
21.80578593 Greek_Cappadocian
21.99941363 Serb_Serbia_Central
22.17698131 Serb
22.39914507 Greek_Cypriot
22.69987445 Serb_Serbia_West
22.73958443 Turk_South
23.03030829 Serb_Croatia
23.13527177 Turk_Central_East
23.31383495 Romania_Moldavia_North
23.73580418 Swiss-Italian2
23.77547686 Moldova_average
23.90600343 Swiss_Italian
24.03441907 Moldova_Centre
24.31122375 Serb_Bosnia
24.56869553 Nusayri
25.12371589 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
25.15654587 Turk_Turkey_average
25.42018489 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
25.45051276 Lebanese_Muslim
25.58629321 Bosniak
25.77601792 Croat_South
26.17258871 Algerian
26.18020626 Gypsy_Wallachia
26.22821382 Csángó-Ceangău
26.35028463 Syrian
26.89544199 Croat_West
27.47295397 Italian_Aosta_Valley
27.51009088 Tunisian
27.52718111 Turk_South_East
27.63520038 Moldova_North
27.72489675 Swiss_French
28.07817480 Spanish_Extremadura
28.09745006 Portuguese
28.41641603 Turk_East
28.45952213 Croat
28.99528927 Bosniak_Bosnia
29.00687677 Croat_East
29.14043754 Iraqi_Baghdad
29.15478520 Spanish_Andalucia
29.22252727 Jordanian
29.22467964 Mozabite_Berber
29.26333200 Azerbaijani_Turkey
29.38493492 Spanish_Galicia
29.47498092 Spanish_Murcia
29.63884444 Azeri
29.85411529 Hungarian_Alföld
29.95113687 Samaritan
29.98671372 Balkan_Gypsy
30.00685755 Moroccan
30.03345301 Spanish_Valencia
30.14422996 Palestinian
30.21922070 Hungarian
30.44619188 Spanish_Cataluna
30.60730632 Spanish
30.68044980 Swiss_German
30.68326254 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
30.70920872 Lebanese_Druze
30.75391845 Greek_Trabzon
30.76576669 Crimean_Tatar
30.81729222 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
30.84962236 Turkmen_Iraq
31.09105981 Azerbaijani_Iran
31.14132785 Assyrian_West
31.27237599 Swiss_German2
31.27466227 Lebanese_Christian
31.27522822 Armenian_West
31.36395224 Croat_North
31.39246884 Bedouin
31.45617586 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
31.49074785 Assyrian_South
31.62497273 Assyrian_North
31.74703451 French_Alsace
31.82170171 Mountain_Jew_Chechnya
31.99587630 Armenian
32.11008720 French_South

And… K12:
Distance to: Greek_Peloponnese

18.09226078 Turk_Northwest
18.69392682 Turk_West_BlackSea
19.20744647 Italian_Trentino
19.30390375 Sephardic_Jews
19.41221297 Swiss_Italian
20.06939710 Turk_Southwest
20.09964676 Serb
20.23035838 Turk_Cyprus
21.07644657 Turk_Central_West
21.21253403 Moldovan_Central
21.35138637 Morocco_Jews
22.79351223 Italian_Aosta_Valley
23.49913615 Turk_South
23.73656041 Turk_Central_East
23.82961183 Spanish_Canarias
24.05287925 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
24.05879465 Bosnian
24.34594833 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
24.52737858 Greek_Cypriot
24.62738110 Moldovan_North
25.01987810 Greek_Cappadocia
25.17772627 Spanish_Baleares
25.20337874 Portuguese
25.25459166 Croat_South
25.47028857 Kabardin
25.54090053 Turk_Southeast
26.70621276 Bavarian_German
26.95624046 Kumyk
27.26581009 Spanish_Castilla-Leon
27.30674276 Abazin
27.36847456 Nusayri_Turkey
27.55577253 Croat
27.76294833 Balkan_Gypsy
27.88308806 Lebanese_Muslim
27.96078146 Circassian
27.97850604 Spanish_Valencia
28.01651834 Azerbaijani_Turkey
28.12917525 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
28.50386465 Hungarian
28.56463898 Turk_East
28.57120403 Azerbaijani_Dagestan
28.60853894 Balkar
28.67089988 Spanish_Catalonia
28.74052540 Azerbaijani_Republic
28.75505347 French_Northeast

Distance to: Greek_Central
15.41696792 French_Corsica
15.87395351 Moldovan_South
16.28315080 Italian_Veneto
16.38879495 Romanian
16.58632871 Italian_Friuli_VG
17.14476888 Italian_Piedmont
17.41668740 Sephardic_Jews
17.46994276 Italian_Lombardy
17.63464204 Turk_Northwest
17.87636428 Turk_West_BlackSea
18.43742119 Montenegrin
18.61618919 Turk_Cyprus
19.37084407 Turk_Southwest
19.77039200 Morocco_Jews
20.13169392 Turk_Central_West
20.21860282 Italian_Trentino
20.27426725 Swiss_Italian
22.23930979 Serb
22.67369842 Turk_Central_East
22.68018739 Turk_South
22.68361082 Greek_Cypriot
23.16490449 Greek_Cappadocia
23.35128048 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
23.45848034 Moldovan_Central
23.76999579 Italian_Aosta_Valley
24.57644604 Spanish_Canarias
24.63198124 Turk_Southeast

Distance to: Greek_Athens
17.84855176 Turk_Northwest
17.95508006 Italian_Lombardy
17.98087317 Turk_West_BlackSea
18.22027717 Turk_Cyprus
18.95441110 Montenegrin
19.36691509 Morocco_Jews
19.52894262 Turk_Southwest
20.23047948 Turk_Central_West
20.76119969 Swiss_Italian
20.77748541 Italian_Trentino
22.23314193 Greek_Cypriot
22.73964380 Turk_Central_East
22.75654411 Serb
22.79327752 Turk_South
22.84555099 Greek_Cappadocia
23.38334236 Turk_Central_Black_Sea
23.96737574 Moldovan_Central
24.39389473 Italian_Aosta_Valley
24.81644012 Turk_Southeast

Only French_Corsica is an exception (which makes less than %0.4 of France’s total population) and Greek_Macedonia in K12.

The thing is, Super Computer, you are a way too much Te user in a sense that you too much seek objective truth, which prevents you from forming logical conclusions and original solutions.

Eat shit Turk. I don't trust your numbers. And what the hell are you even doing at a EUROPEAN cultural community??

[Demis]

OP should rather focus on pigmentation studies of populations again. I would be better I guess.
Oh, don’t worry OP is just now using his inferior introvert feeling (Fi), which results emotional outbursts.

Supercomputer is probably an ISTJ, which is somewhat apparent from all of his posts. This is why his posts are repetitive and lack imagination. But of course, I respect his determination. I hope he will see his errors.

[Supercomputer]

Oh, don’t worry OP is just now using his inferior introvert feeling (Fi), which results emotional outbursts.

Supercomputer is probably an ISTJ, which is somewhat apparent from all of his posts. This is why his posts are repetitive and lack imagination. But of course, I respect his determination. I hope he will see his errors.

Scram Turk. You don't belong here.

[lockdownboredom]

Demis, if you want to measure the genetic distance between ethnicities, use G25 as it is based on coordinates. Navigate to this site:

http://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/Global-standard.htm

Add this data to the source section:

Turkish_Adana,0.09656,0.0934283,-0.0336265,-0.0383293,-0.0280565,-0.0145487,0.004935,-0.002846,-0.0176913,-0.002612,-0.0009747,0.0020732,0.0008672,-0.0002065,-0.0027822,0.0003315,0.0028032,0.0006337,0.0024092,-0.0050442,-0.0020797,-0.0012778,-0.0017253,-0.0035347,0.0005388
Turkish_Aydin,0.0947984,0.0610769,-0.012391,-0.0360837,-0.0198277,-0.014343,0.0034579,-0.000923,-0.0170047,-0.0016923,-0.0015313,-0.0002354,-0.0045023,0.0049937,-0.0059136,0.0014774,0.002943,0.0004526,0.0012569,-0.0014293,-0.0034401,-0.0027736,-0.0037326,-0.000895,-0.0015567
Turkish_Balikesir,0.0986467,0.0597468,-0.0099938,-0.0267013,-0.0182087,-0.0137122,0.0066585,0.0046535,-0.015612,0.0036752,-0.0004873,0.0037717,-0.0032953,0.0018578,0.001312,-0.0014587,-0.0012822,0.0014568,0.0036242,-0.001959,-0.0054487,0.0008862,-0.0010475,0.0009438,-0.0001997
Turkish_Central,0.097275,0.0841327,-0.0305758,-0.0405241,-0.0228443,-0.0133439,0.0035069,-0.0019525,-0.021066,-0.0021728,-0.0002998,0.0027898,-0.0036708,0.0009528,-0.0056584,-0.0015502,0.0006519,0.0011109,0.0010635,-0.0017988,-0.0013438,0.0018834,-0.0018203,-0.0004636,0.0004421
Turkish_East,0.0985994,0.1106928,-0.0463388,-0.0424745,-0.0332371,-0.0068678,0.0043475,-0.0045576,-0.0305509,-0.0051937,0.003126,0.0026039,-0.0051288,-0.001858,-0.0016289,0.0014586,0.0031618,0.0020902,-4.71e-05,-0.0021104,0.001201,-0.001051,-0.0007704,-0.0013405,-0.0021106
Turkish_Kayseri,0.0997089,0.0975922,-0.0341294,-0.045866,-0.0242198,-0.0121875,0.0031256,-0.0010152,-0.0233158,-0.0002735,-0.0007144,0.0003747,-0.0012487,0.0030414,-0.0035422,-9.28e-05,0.0007563,0.0008615,0.0019987,-0.0034517,-0.001797,0.0011499,-0.0026129,-0.002916,-0.0005507
Turkish_North,0.1002908,0.0664608,-0.0222919,-0.03553,-0.0233889,-0.0140994,0.0065017,-0.0013333,-0.0215659,-0.0021667,-0.0024358,0.0030972,-0.0080111,0.0019421,-0.0057607,-0.0044638,0.00071,-8.46e-05,0.0017599,-0.0033211,-0.0046446,0.0015524,-0.0033274,0.0004418,-0.0003461
Turkish_Northwest,0.0986468,0.0572082,-0.0105592,-0.0279574,-0.0181229,-0.0112486,0.0063451,-0.0006666,-0.0176799,-0.0012758,-0.0030132,0.0007161,-0.0021307,0.0021101,-0.0039661,-0.0014289,0.0054471,0.0006191,0.0011173,0.001459,-0.0050466,0.0009756,-0.001342,-0.0002009,0.0008782
Turkish_South,0.0943106,0.0552737,-0.0228967,-0.0330844,-0.0290603,-0.0111956,0.0067816,-0.0008573,-0.0207154,-0.0020827,-0.0017861,2.14e-05,-0.0031431,-0.000177,-0.0020357,0.0033904,0.0039673,0.0015383,0.002083,0 .0004109,-0.0024241,0.0012719,-0.0029754,0.0018076,0.0030621
Turkish_Southwest,0.0954045,0.0585314,-0.0177931,-0.0312429,-0.0223256,-0.0116374,0.0053836,0.0006084,-0.0149116,0.0018555,-0.0011515,0.0007358,-0.002973,-0.0010509,-0.0048735,0.007859,0.0102175,0.0007485,0.0005829,-0.0003978,-0.0040155,-0.0021471,-0.003395,0.0007012,-0.0018289
Turkish_Trabzon,0.1092702,0.1391276,-0.0540038,-0.0608532,-0.0242508,-0.0165662,0.004982,-0.0074306,-0.0362826,0.0004376,0.0032154,0.0066242,-0.0086816,0.005395,-0.010315,-0.0089364,0.0083706,0.0005068,0.0010054,0.001901,0 .0063136,-0.0006184,0.0016514,-0.004121,-0.0007184
French_Alsace,0.1273112,0.1403715,0.0503172,0.0224 324,0.0384224,0.0089105,0.0029199,0.0048748,0.0068 516,0.010679,-0.0031341,0.0045785,-0.0094438,-0.0041699,0.0085606,0.0030662,-0.0048927,0.0024387,0.003243,-0.000716,0.0027639,0.0011562,-0.0013219,0.0071364,-0.0003143
French_Auvergne,0.1254161,0.1446566,0.0474194,0.01 29918,0.0434726,0.0039974,-0.0003394,0.0025128,0.0154076,0.0221721,-0.0024659,0.0073546,-0.0139686,-0.0096693,0.0082989,0.001483,-0.0007871,0.0014968,0.0030726,-0.000213,0.0018579,0.003737,-0.0022823,0.0018163,-8.87e-05
French_Brittany,0.1314657,0.1383406,0.0578504,0.03 92849,0.0391688,0.0158131,0.0031549,0.0042114,0.00 8186,0.0094899,-0.0051314,0.00559,-0.014368,-0.0131017,0.0183426,0.0043987,-0.0073016,0.0012795,-0.000462,0.0017727,0.0044671,0.0017868,-0.001254,0.0105465,0.0006586
French_Corsica,0.1203273,0.1518216,0.0195294,-0.0230022,0.0350394,-0.0100401,-0.0018464,-0.0005604,0.0157044,0.0337918,-0.0006031,0.0074612,-0.0132308,-0.0071074,-0.004537,-0.0005968,0.0040419,0.0012489,0.0024511,-0.0030461,-0.0003923,0.0002474,-0.0025793,-0.0013858,-0.0005303
French_Nord,0.1282752,0.1405432,0.0513571,0.025605 1,0.0382728,0.0088906,0.0010967,0.0044194,0.008373 ,0.0120166,-0.003484,0.0040328,-0.0108613,-0.0081823,0.0111991,0.0025432,-0.0046069,0.0022266,0.0040947,0.0010308,0.0021327, 0.0015249,-0.0015724,0.0074707,1.45e-05
French_Occitanie,0.1270391,0.1448823,0.048879,0.01 79086,0.0433756,0.0034164,0.0005222,0.0038909,0.01 48564,0.0235894,-0.0032883,0.0065816,-0.0150436,-0.0094578,0.010737,0.0025671,-0.0037088,0.0024846,0.0014247,4.52e-05,0.0036706,0.0024456,-0.0025505,0.0017673,0.0004224
French_Paris,0.1271714,0.1414355,0.0504313,0.02399 01,0.0409027,0.0093048,0.0027985,0.0054544,0.01160 22,0.0181739,-0.0077061,0.0068121,-0.0129065,-0.0103844,0.0137695,0.0060631,-0.0018255,0.0046644,0.0027082,-0.0009778,0.0022007,0.0035747,-0.0012325,0.0111405,-0.0019051
French_Pas-de-Calais,0.1278613,0.140482,0.0543053,0.026809,0.042 1617,0.0127363,0.0041517,0.0013073,0.0085217,0.012 4527,-0.0080113,0.002198,-0.0100097,-0.012019,0.0136627,0.008132,-0.000478,0.001816,-0.003645,0.004252,0.0099827,0.0014427,-0.002547,0.0059043,-0.001437
French_Provence,0.1219247,0.1438468,0.0368914,0.00 5358,0.0368574,0.0023296,0.0022671,0.0036379,0.010 0577,0.0204533,-0.0038687,0.0072112,-0.0121376,-0.0109614,0.0059557,0.0031744,0.0010967,0.0028095, 0.0017746,-0.0015155,0.0015414,0.0027349,0.0003552,0.0054435, 3.52e-05
French_Seine-Maritime,0.1360185,0.1370965,0.0452545,0.0295545,0 .039084,0.0167335,0.00423,-0.000692,0.003988,0.006014,-0.003735,0.0074935,-0.0075815,-0.0016515,0.0142505,0.0035135,-0.0079535,-0.002344,0.0009425,-0.0050025,0.0039305,0.0055025,0.000863,0.0042775,-0.0044905
French_South,0.1261811,0.1447856,0.0496183,0.00885 94,0.0506907,0.0026694,0.0002686,0.0022747,0.02764 01,0.0386601,-0.0067741,0.0073649,-0.021853,-0.0135659,0.0103729,0.0027653,-0.0051034,0.0017917,0.0002154,0.0019116,0.0049911,-0.0008301,-0.0052646,-0.0075569,-0.00142

Add this data to the target section:

Greek_Epirote,0.121791,0.148267,0.01961,-0.015504,0.022466,-0.000279,0.00376,0.002538,-0.003681,0.015308,-0.001949,-0.004346,-0.001487,0.020093,-0.013301,-0.008353,-0.01017,0.005321,0.006913,-0.013006,-0.017594,-0.005564,0.006039,0.000482,0.010658
Greek_Central_Macedonia,0.1194473,0.142473,0.01577 25,-0.016492,0.0213432,-0.0035601,0.0020321,1e-07,0.0008782,0.0120812,0.0009934,0.0018424,-0.0014429,0.0070025,-0.016957,-0.0005459,0.0098095,8.94e-05,0.0050649,-0.0035531,-0.0078319,0.0015057,0.0032408,0.0005529,-0.0007256
Greek_Crete,0.1079839,0.145505,-0.0145229,-0.0451942,0.0067765,-0.015247,0.0022748,-0.0018484,-0.002579,0.0128804,0.0019698,0.0015826,-0.0017602,0.0039746,-0.0115539,-0.0023018,0.0046704,0.0009527,0.0038451,-0.0048911,-0.0044534,0.0009002,0.0006446,0.0014423,-0.001692
Greek_Laconia,0.114677,0.149029,0.0032055,-0.0369835,0.0210038,-0.009831,0.0008225,-0.001904,0.0059822,0.014351,0.0030448,-0.0010865,-0.0013378,0.006021,-0.014522,0.0052703,0.0135598,0.0018685,0.0003143,-0.0039708,-0.0030882,0.0025043,0.005392,0.0046992,-0.0030238
Greek_Macedonia,0.1215631,0.1428511,0.0134758,-0.0164945,0.0188958,-0.0048713,0.0029453,0.0028768,-4.09e-05,0.0121735,0.0019703,0.0012888,-0.0023093,0.0103219,-0.0153365,-0.0062493,0.0018428,0.0006587,0.0069805,-0.0052526,-0.0065136,0.0004122,0.0024156,-0.0010364,-0.0005986
Greek_Thessaly,0.119135,0.1452207,0.013702,-0.020026,0.0188753,-0.0051133,0.0005483,0.000769,0,0.01877,0.0026523,0 .0040963,-0.0072843,0.0056883,-0.0090933,-0.0041987,0.0021297,-0.000549,0.0041483,-0.005336,-0.0069877,0.0012777,0.0035743,0.0014057,-0.003353
Greek_Peloponnesian,0.121791,0.150298,0.010936,-0.026486,0.022773,-0.005299,-0.005405,-0.002077,-0.001227,0.022051,0.005521,0.004346,-0.006392,0.012524,-0.017236,-0.010475,0.001304,0.003294,0.006034,-0.009129,-0.001747,0.003957,0.008258,0.007832,0.001197

Then go to distance and click run all.

[placebo]

Eat shit Turk. I don't trust your numbers. And what the hell are you even doing at a EUROPEAN cultural community??

what kind of idiot are you?

https://turkishdnaproject.com/admixture-tr/

[Demis]

So sad, supercomputer. I am trying to help you - because I’m sure you’re getting through a difficult phase in your life.

You seek too much validation from other members, which is evident from your posts - you assume everyone thinks or should think the same thing. When you face criticism, you get emotional outbursts because it feels like a personal attack on you.

Believe me, Supercomputer; if my aim were to hurt you, I would have done it already.

I’m really scared for your mental health - it seems that you’re getting closer to the edge of a mental breakdown. I sense you’re losing control of your emotions. And in no way I’m projecting - IMO, I’m an INFJ, and we don’t share any cognitive functions.

Hope you can grow as a person.

[Supercomputer]

So sad, supercomputer. I am trying to help you - because I’m sure you’re getting through a difficult phase in your life.

You seek too much validation from other members, which is evident from your posts - you assume everyone thinks or should think the same thing. When you face criticism, you get emotional outbursts because it feels like a personal attack on you.

Believe me, Supercomputer; if my aim were to hurt you, I would have done it already.

I’m really scared for your mental health - it seems that you’re getting closer to the edge of a mental breakdown. I sense you’re losing control of your emotions. And in no way I’m projecting - IMO, I’m an INFJ, and we don’t share any cognitive functions.

Hope you can grow as a person.

You got me all wrong. I just don't like Turks.

[Demis]

You got me all wrong. I just don't like Turks.

You’re just trying to escape reality - from my observations you always give some kind of emotional outburst when others mock you or disagree with you.

I didn’t get you wrong at all. In fact, you’re proving my theory about you.

Anyway, you will see that I was right.

[Ayetooey]

"European" is more of a cultural category focused around Christianity, with its members falling within the wider west Eurasian genetic continuum rather than a "cluster", hence why Trabzon Greeks and Cypriots are White, but Turkish speaking ones aren't, Sicilians are White but Ashkenazi aren't, etc. Had North Africa, Anatolia and the Levant remained Christian, the term "White" would probably be even broader than it already is.

[Supercomputer]

You’re just trying to escape reality - from my observations you always give some kind of emotional outburst when others mock you or disagree with you.

I didn’t get you wrong at all. In fact, you’re proving my theory about you.

Anyway, you will see that I was right.

I only seem to have problems with Turks on this forum. Nobody else.

[Supercomputer]

dp

[Tooting Carmen]

"European" is more of a cultural category focused around Christianity, with its members falling within the wider west Eurasian genetic continuum rather than a "cluster", hence why Trabzon Greeks and Cypriots are White, but Turkish speaking ones aren't, Sicilians are White but Ashkenazi aren't, etc. Had North Africa, Anatolia and the Levant remained Christian, the term "White" would probably be even broader than it already is.

Yes. What's more, while I do partially recant my previous exaggeration of the exoticness of Southern Europeans, there's something faintly risible about how someone like Alvaro Arbeloa or Lorenzo Insigne should/would be considered 'White' but not e.g. the Assads.

[Tooting Carmen]

But as for the OP's arguments: I do agree that is incoherent for CRT proponents to claim that Whiteness is simultaneously oppressive and non-existent. Even without Europe's colonialism and expansionism (note to OP: it isn't the existence of European colonialism per se but the sheer scale of it that is unique and without parallel in human history), there would still be a European race.

[Ayetooey]

Yes. What's more, while I do partially recant my previous exaggeration of the exoticness of Southern Europeans, there's something faintly risible about how someone like Alvaro Arbeloa or Lorenzo Insigne should/would be considered 'White' but not e.g. the Assads.

It's the issue with drawing a hard border with these things, when Europe/Mena is a continuum. I see no use in arguing that a Sicilian or Cretan is the same race genetically as someone from Northern Ireland or Eastern Finland, but has nothing to do with northern Levantines; it just isn't true, what unites the former is a vague western/Christian culture not strong genetic affinity (and that's ok, I feel closer to MENA Christians than Pagan or Muslim Europeans).

[Tooting Carmen]

It's the issue with drawing a hard border with these things, when Europe/Mena is a continuum. I see no use in arguing that a Sicilian or Cretan is the same race genetically as someone from Northern Ireland or Eastern Finland, but has nothing to do with northern Levantines; it just isn't true, what unites the former is a vague western/Christian culture not strong genetic affinity (and that's ok, I feel closer to MENA Christians than Pagan or Muslim Europeans).

On the other hand, as I've discussed before, there definitely IS a sharp discontinuity between Europe and East Asia - notwithstanding some Eurasian ethnic groups, crossing the border from Russia into China is a different world - but that is much less the case between Europe and the Middle East.

As an aside, I find many Southern European forum members to be even more complexed than Latin Americans, MENAs etc. Many claim that swarthy phenotypes in their countries like Insigne and Arbeloa either (a) don't exist (b) barely exist (c) are Gypsies (d) are Turks or (e) are of more recent immigrant descent!

[Tooting Carmen]

It's the issue with drawing a hard border with these things, when Europe/Mena is a continuum. I see no use in arguing that a Sicilian or Cretan is the same race genetically as someone from Northern Ireland or Eastern Finland, but has nothing to do with northern Levantines; it just isn't true, what unites the former is a vague western/Christian culture not strong genetic affinity (and that's ok, I feel closer to MENA Christians than Pagan or Muslim Europeans).

On the other hand, as I've discussed before, there definitely IS a sharp discontinuity between Europe and East Asia - notwithstanding some Eurasian ethnic groups, crossing the border from Russia into China is a different world - but that is much less the case between Europe and the Middle East.

As an aside, I find many Southern European forum members to be even more complexed than Latin Americans, MENAs etc. Many claim that swarthy phenotypes in their countries like Insigne and Arbeloa either (a) don't exist (b) barely exist (c) are Gypsies (d) are Turks or (e) are of more recent immigrant descent!

[Immanenz]

Yes. What's more, while I do partially recant my previous exaggeration of the exoticness of Southern Europeans, there's something faintly risible about how someone like Alvaro Arbeloa or Lorenzo Insigne should/would be considered 'White' but not e.g. the Assads.

The Moroccan gold medal winner El Bakkali looks exactly like a pigmented version of Assad. Its always the same old (and odd) discussion what should be considered white. One thing is sure you cannot rely only on pigmentation to differ is someone is European or not.

[Tooting Carmen]

The Moroccan gold medal winner El Bakkali looks exactly like a pigmented version of Assad. Its always the same old (and odd) discussion what should be considered white. One thing is sure you cannot rely only on pigmentation to differ is someone is European or not.

Surely there is a limit though? Skin tone IV and beyond is borderline European if not non-European, right?

[Ayetooey]

On the other hand, as I've discussed before, there definitely IS a sharp discontinuity between Europe and East Asia - notwithstanding some Eurasian ethnic groups, crossing the border from Russia into China is a different world - but that is much less the case between Europe and the Middle East.

As an aside, I find many Southern European forum members to be even more complexed than Latin Americans, MENAs etc. Many claim that swarthy phenotypes in their countries like Insigne and Arbeloa either (a) don't exist (b) barely exist (c) are Gypsies (d) are Turks or (e) are of more recent immigrant descent!
If you include the Eurasian ethnic groups you mentioned, central Asian groups, VUR chads etc, the discontinuity is less sharp (Russian Slavs are also not originally native to the areas bordering China), but I agree in principle.

The "barrier" between Europe and the middle east would be much smaller if it wasn't for Turkic/Mongol/Arabic invasions, both genetically and culturally. Inter-European invasions (Slavs in the Balkans for example) also helped reduce genetic and cultural barriers between Europeans.

As for the last part of your post, I think its unfair to say "southern Europeans". I rarely see OWDness from Greeks, TA Italians, etc; these people are proud meds. It's usually people from a specific peninsular in the SW of Europe....

[Tooting Carmen]

If you include the Eurasian ethnic groups you mentioned, central Asian groups, VUR chads etc, the discontinuity is less sharp (Russian Slavs are also not originally native to the areas bordering China), but I agree in principle.

Point taken.


The "barrier" between Europe and the middle east would be much smaller if it wasn't for Turkic/Mongol/Arabic invasions, both genetically and culturally. Inter-European invasions (Slavs in the Balkans for example) also helped reduce genetic and cultural barriers between Europeans.

So it was a case that both Southern Europe got blonder/fairer AND the Near East got browner/darker?

[Ayetooey]

Point taken.



So it was a case that both Southern Europe got blonder/fairer AND the Near East got browner/darker?
Not sure about blonder (true blonde hair is very uncommon in SE Europe), but the SE of Europe, including even places as North as Northern Croatia, went from a universally med/wog zone, to a genetic mixture of NE and SE Euro in varying degrees. As for the near east, part of the reason the barrier between NW Turks and neighboring Greeks is so large is thanks to the considerable Turkic/East Eurasian input in the former. Remove these invasions and you'd have more of a close nit genetic continuum. I'm going to guess pre arab Levantines were less woggy than they are now (Ancient egyptian samples we have on g25 have less SSA than modern ones for example).

[Tooting Carmen]

Not sure about blonder (true blonde hair is very uncommon in SE Europe), but the SE of Europe, including even places as North as Northern Croatia, went from a universally med/wog zone, to a genetic mixture of NE and SE Euro in varying degrees. As for the near east, part of the reason the barrier between NW Turks and neighboring Greeks is so large is thanks to the considerable Turkic/East Eurasian input in the former. Remove these invasions and you'd have more of a close nit genetic continuum. I'm going to guess pre arab Levantines were less woggy than they are now (Ancient egyptian samples we have on g25 have less SSA than modern ones for example).

Although when we discuss migration and mixing in the contemporary world, we tend to mostly think of it as darker-pigmented peoples coming into territories hitherto belonging to lighter-pigmented peoples, it is actually quite ahistorical, and while I don't whatsoever fully agree with the whole CRT package, they are right in that the scale (if not as such the existence) of European colonialism and expansionism was unique and detrimental for the existence of many other ethnic groups and cultures.

[Tooting Carmen]

But in any event, the real source of privilege and hierarchy in the modern world IMHO is based not on race but on language, i.e. do you speak English or not? On that basis, a monolingual Barbadian or Afram is far more privileged than is a monolingual Czech or Italian. Call me old-fashioned, but surely when you visit and especially move to another country, ffs learn at least some of their language! (Whether out of courtesy or sheer necessity).

[Ayetooey]

Although when we discuss migration and mixing in the contemporary world, we tend to mostly think of it as darker-pigmented peoples coming into territories hitherto belonging to lighter-pigmented peoples, it is actually quite ahistorical, and while I don't whatsoever fully agree with the whole CRT package, they are right in that the scale (if not as such the existence) of European colonialism and expansionism was unique and detrimental for the existence of many other ethnic groups and cultures.

European colonialists were just the most successful; there was plenty of external colonial threats to Europe (Ottomans, Mongols, Huns, Umayyads) which if more successful could have changed the way we all perceive these things.

And while its true that Europeans have Christianized and Europeanized large sections of earth, you also have the Han Chinese who have assimilated and persecuted other Chinese ethnic groups, Arabs who destroyed the pre Islamic diversity of Arabia, the Levant, North Africa and further influenced the ending of the pre-Islamic cultures of places like modern day Pakistan and Bangladesh. Turks who Turkified/assimilated and geocided countless ethnic groups in Anatolia. Even Bantu's in Sub Sahara Africa expanded from a small area of Africa, and displaced numerous native African tribes/peoples. "Whites" were just more successful at sea faring.

[Tooting Carmen]

As for the last part of your post, I think its unfair to say "southern Europeans". I rarely see OWDness from Greeks, TA Italians, etc; these people are proud meds. It's usually people from a specific peninsular in the SW of Europe....

What do you think a significant chunk of a certain other anthro website is about?

[Tooting Carmen]

European colonialists were just the most successful; there was plenty of external colonial threats to Europe (Ottomans, Mongols, Huns, Umayyads) which if more successful could have changed the way we all perceive these things.

And while its true that Europeans have Christianized and Europeanized large sections of earth, you also have the Han Chinese who have assimilated and persecuted other Chinese ethnic groups, Arabs who destroyed the pre Islamic diversity of Arabia, the Levant, North Africa and further influenced the ending of the pre-Islamic cultures of places like modern day Pakistan and Bangladesh. Turks who Turkified/assimilated and geocided countless ethnic groups in Anatolia. Even Bantu's in Sub Sahara Africa expanded from a small area of Africa, and displaced numerous native African tribes/peoples. "Whites" were just more successful at sea faring.

I see your point, but would Europeans like it if some foreigners, whether Africans, Indians or Chinese, invaded our countries and imposed their languages and cultures on us in the name of 'civilising' us? (As you yourself inferred, ask what Balkanites think of the Ottomans, or Iberians of Moors).

[Tooting Carmen]

But in any event, the real source of privilege and hierarchy in the modern world IMHO is based not on race but on language, i.e. do you speak English or not? On that basis, a monolingual Barbadian or Afram is far more privileged than is a monolingual Czech or Italian. Call me old-fashioned, but surely when you visit and especially move to another country, ffs learn at least some of their language! (Whether out of courtesy or sheer necessity).

And I even opened a thread ages ago to discuss this: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?334055-Why-quot-English-language-privilege-quot-is-really-a-much-greater-issue-than-quot-White-privilege-quot

[Ayetooey]

I see your point, but would Europeans like it if some foreigners, whether Africans, Indians or Chinese, invaded our countries and imposed their languages and cultures on us in the name of 'civilising' us? (As you yourself inferred, ask what Balkanites think of the Ottomans, or Iberians of Moors).

But how many people are actually defending colonialism/past invasions in the real world? All I see is people apologizing for what their ancestors did or not do 100s of years ago. Another issue with the term "white" is it gives CRT the opportunity to refer to all new world whites as colonialists, even if a Bulgarian-American for example has absolutely no ancestral connection to the colonialism of Britain, France, or Spain, but thanks to being "White" he/she is grouped with such people.

I think had Europeans not invaded others, they would have been ultimately been invaded. All peoples historically have made their best attempt to expand as much as possible, and there's plenty of times non Europeans have attempted to expand into Europe through the use of violence (such as the examples I gave in a previous post). I see no point in viewing European colonialism as anything special (but I'm naturally biased as I'm not a product of it, so there's that).

[JamesBond007]

Although when we discuss migration and mixing in the contemporary world, we tend to mostly think of it as darker-pigmented peoples coming into territories hitherto belonging to lighter-pigmented peoples, it is actually quite ahistorical, and while I don't whatsoever fully agree with the whole CRT package, they are right in that the scale (if not as such the existence) of European colonialism and expansionism was unique and detrimental for the existence of many other ethnic groups and cultures.

So, you admit that that CRT is fundamentally 'moral' and political rather than scientific and mathematical ? Save the snail darters fuck whitey ! Ok, thanks for showing that CRT can be dismissed as nonsense.

European expansionism being detrimental to other groups and cultures is just fine and dandy according to Darwinism

[Tooting Carmen]

But how many people are actually defending colonialism/past invasions in the real world? All I see is people apologizing for what their ancestors did or not do 100s of years ago. Another issue with the term "white" is it gives CRT the opportunity to refer to all new world whites as colonialists, even if a Bulgarian-American for example has absolutely no ancestral connection to the colonialism of Britain, France, or Spain, but thanks to being "White" he/she is grouped with such people.

I think had Europeans not invaded others, they would have been ultimately been invaded. All peoples historically have made their best attempt to expand as much as possible, and there's plenty of times non Europeans have attempted to expand into Europe through the use of violence (such as the examples I gave in a previous post). I see no point in viewing European colonialism as anything special (but I'm naturally biased as I'm not a product of it, so there's that).

Yes and no. Colonialism is universal but not the way it is practised as such. When Europeans or Middle Easterners (be they Arabs or Turks) invade other places, they usually impose their languages, cultures and religions on other people, through a mix of both force and education. The Chinese, however, seem to be much more pragmatic - granted, they are pretty ruthless at home too, but if you look at the way they nowadays deal with Africa and Latin America, they don't generally expect the locals to learn their language and culture, but merely maintain a pragmatic relationship based on money and technology in return for land and resources.

[Tooting Carmen]

So, you admit that that CRT is fundamentally 'moral' and political rather than scientific and mathematical ? Save the snail darters fuck whitey ! Ok, thanks for showing that CRT can be dismissed as nonsense.

A lot of it is indeed nonsense (not all of it though), and it is a political not scientific theory.

[Ayetooey]

Yes and no. Colonialism is universal but not the way it is practised as such. When Europeans or Middle Easterners (be they Arabs or Turks) invade other places, they usually impose their languages, cultures and religions on other people, through a mix of both force and education. The Chinese, however, seem to be much more pragmatic - granted, they are pretty ruthless at home too, but if you look at the way they nowadays deal with Africa and Latin America, they don't generally expect the locals to learn their language and culture, but merely maintain a pragmatic relationship based on money and technology in return for land and resources.

I'm talking more about the way Han Chinese have marginalized other groups native to China (Uyghurs, Dzungars, Yue peoples etc) rather than their modern economic colonialism. China is and was pretty diverse; Han Chinese emerged from a small area of Eastern China, bred like rabbits, and violently expanded. Not to mention all the Hans which live across SE Asia.

[Tooting Carmen]

I'm talking more about the way Han Chinese have marginalized other groups native to China (Uyghurs, Dzungars, Yue peoples etc) rather than their modern economic colonialism. China is and was pretty diverse; Han Chinese emerged from a small area of Eastern China, bred like rabbits, and violently expanded. Not to mention all the Hans which live across SE Asia.

I already said that the (Han) Chinese in what is now called China are as or more ruthless towards enemy/rival/subjugated ethnic groups as have been Europeans, Arabs and Turks, but the difference is their foreign policy is much less intrusive and overbearing. In fact, many Africans in particular nowadays say they prefer to do business with the Chinese rather than with Western countries (warts and all) because the Chinese don't seek to impose their language and culture in the way Westerners usually do/have done.

[Ayetooey]

I already said that the (Han) Chinese in what is now called China are as or more ruthless towards enemy/rival/subjugated ethnic groups as have been Europeans, Arabs and Turks, but the difference is their foreign policy is much less intrusive and overbearing. In fact, many Africans in particular nowadays say they prefer to do business with the Chinese rather than with Western countries (warts and all) because the Chinese don't seek to impose their language and culture in the way Westerners usually do/have done.

Well it's 2021 (we're talking about historical colonialism) if China were to straight up invade SSA it would start a world war. It makes more sense for them to extract resources through trade.

[Tooting Carmen]

Well it's 2021 (we're talking about historical colonialism) if China were to straight up invade SSA it would start a world war. It makes more sense for them to extract resources through trade.

True, but I'm talking about how they relate to their mini-partners in a cultural and linguistic sense too. The Chinese do not believe (and more to the point never really have) that everyone around the world should learn Mandarin and adopt Confucianism for their own good. Whereas the English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Arabs and Turks all to varying degrees thought that for others to have their languages and religions forced down their throats would be ultimately for their own benefit.

[JamesBond007]

A lot of it is indeed nonsense (not all of it though), and it is a political not scientific theory.

Right, but then you are dealing with philosophical metaphysics among other things rather than science and math.

Ludwig Wittgenstein dismissed talking about metaphysics as nonsense and Stephen Hawking claimed philosophy has failed to keep up with science.

[Andullero]

True, but I'm talking about how they relate to their mini-partners in a cultural and linguistic sense too. The Chinese do not believe (and more to the point never really have) that everyone around the world should learn Mandarin and adopt Confucianism for their own good. Whereas the English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Arabs and Turks all to varying degrees thought that for others to have their languages and religions forced down their throats would be ultimately for their own benefit.

You can see this in their historical relationship with Korea and Vietnam (even though this latter one ended up giving them the middle finger), it only amounted to vassalage and not full fledged Sinification. The exception to this rule was Mongolia, though, but it was because them chinks were fed up with their shenanigans on their northern border, and the only way to put an end to that was going to the Mong turf and fuck them up thoroughly.

[Ayetooey]

True, but I'm talking about how they relate to their mini-partners in a cultural and linguistic sense too. The Chinese do not believe (and more to the point never really have) that everyone around the world should learn Mandarin and adopt Confucianism for their own good. Whereas the English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Arabs and Turks all to varying degrees thought that for others to have their languages and religions forced down their throats would be ultimately for their own benefit.

True, but the latter two groups you mentioned aren't "White" (so a counter point against CRT), and out of the European groups mentioned, the greatest example of a modern day cultural colonialist is IMO France with its obsession with a "Francophone" empire. But French identity is legally inclusive of race and its potential "Francophone empire" is anything but White. Meanwhile Chinese have their cake and eat it, they spread economic and cultural hegemony, without needing to assimilate million of foreigners. I think you're mistaking China's opposition to assimilation as kindness when really its the opposite IMO (France, Britain, Spain etc open their borders to ex colonial subjects, China just strip nations of their resources and keep their own country as pure as possible). There's no benefit to China teaching Africans Mandarin, that's why they don't do it, but when it IS in Chinas benefit to assimilate other regions culturally (Tibet, Xinjiang) they do it.

[Tooting Carmen]

True, but the latter two groups you mentioned aren't "White" (so a counter point against CRT)

I never said I wholly agreed with CRT. More crucially, I do think Islamic (Ottoman and Arab) imperialism was in many ways indeed comparable to Western imperialism.


and out of the European groups mentioned, the greatest example of a modern day cultural colonialist is IMO France with its obsession with a "Francophone" empire.

Well the Franc is still the official currency of several African nations, so yeah. But on the subject of empires: um hello, which language are we using as a supposedly 'neutral' medium here?


But French identity is legally inclusive of race and its potential "Francophone empire" is anything but White.

France may be all republican and egalitarian in rhetoric, but in practice race relations in France are quite probably the worst in Europe. (And to clarify, that isn't just the fault of the ethnic French either).


Meanwhile Chinese have their cake and eat it, they spread economic and cultural hegemony, without needing to assimilate million of foreigners. I think you're mistaking China's opposition to assimilation as kindness when really its the opposite IMO (France, Britain, Spain etc open their borders to ex colonial subjects, China just strip nations of their resources and keep their own country as pure as possible). There's no benefit to China teaching Africans Mandarin, that's why they don't do it, but when it IS in Chinas benefit to assimilate other regions culturally (Tibet, Xinjiang) they do it.

Post-war immigration to Europe from its ex-colonies has been mostly about obtaining cheap(er) labour. You're being very naive if you believe all the bluster from those who claim that "diversity is a good thing in itself" and "isn't it cool to have all these different restaurants and festivals" etc etc. And whether the Chinese oppose assimilation due to kindness or sheer pragmatism is to an extent a moot point - one way or the other, its trading partners/client states find them less overbearing and imposing than the West and are happier as a result.

[Ayetooey]

Post-war immigration to Europe from its ex-colonies has been mostly about obtaining cheap(er) labour. You're being very naive if you believe all the bluster from those who claim that "diversity is a good thing in itself" and "isn't it cool to have all these different restaurants and festivals" etc etc. And whether the Chinese oppose assimilation due to kindness or sheer pragmatism is to an extent a moot point - one way or the other, its trading partners/client states find them less overbearing and imposing than the West and are happier as a result.
And countries/territories which have historical bad blood with China (South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong etc) prefer the West to China, you can't expect your ex to talk good about you.

[Tooting Carmen]

And countries/territories which have historical bad blood with China (South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong etc) prefer the West to China, you can't expect your ex to talk good about you.

Funny how "pan-Asianism" isn't really a force like "pan-Europeanism" claims to be.

[Ayetooey]

Funny how "pan-Asianism" isn't really a force like "pan-Europeanism" claims to be.

China is too large and dominant for such a concept I guess, not to mention the large political and economic differences between the various nations. I oppose pan-Europeanism and the EU but there's at least shared qualities between EU nations (liberal economics, democracy, etc).

[JamesBond007]

I would say CRT theory is Hegelian or inverted Hegelianism so this counts as a critique of CRT :


ON MEN OF LEARNING.

When one sees the number and variety of institutions which exist for the purposes of education, and the vast throng of scholars and masters, one might fancy the human race to be very much concerned about truth and wisdom. But here, too, appearances are deceptive. The masters teach in order to gain money, and strive, not after wisdom, but the outward show and reputation of it; and the scholars learn, not for the sake of knowledge and insight, but to be able to chatter and give themselves airs. Every thirty years a new race comes into the world—a youngster that knows nothing about anything, and after summarily devouring in all haste the results of human knowledge as they have been accumulated for thousands of years, aspires to be thought cleverer than the whole of the past. For this purpose he goes to the University, and takes to reading books—new books, as being of his own age and standing. Everything he reads must be briefly put, must be new! he is new himself. Then he falls to and criticises. And here I am not taking the slightest account of studies pursued for the sole object of making a living.

Students, and learned persons of all sorts and every age, aim as a rule at acquiring information rather than insight. They pique themselves upon knowing about everything—stones, plants, battles, experiments, and all the books in existence. It never occurs to them that information is only a means of insight, and in itself of little or no value; that it is his way of thinking that makes a man a philosopher. When I hear of these portents of learning and their imposing erudition, I sometimes say to myself: Ah, how little they must have had to think about, to have been able to read so much! And when I actually find it reported of the elder Pliny that he was continually reading or being read to, at table, on a journey, or in his bath, the question forces itself upon my mind, whether the man was so very lacking in thought of his own that he had to have alien thought incessantly instilled into him; as though he were a consumptive patient taking jellies to keep himself alive. And neither his undiscerning credulity nor his inexpressibly repulsive and barely intelligible style—which seems like of a man taking notes, and very economical of paper—is of a kind to give me a high opinion of his power of independent thought.

We have seen that much reading and learning is prejudicial to thinking for oneself; and, in the same way, through much writing and teaching, a man loses the habit of being quite clear, and therefore thorough, in regard to the things he knows and understands; simply because he has left himself no time to acquire clearness or thoroughness. And so, when clear knowledge fails him in his utterances, he is forced to fill out the gaps with words and phrases. It is this, and not the dryness of the subject-matter, that makes most books such tedious reading. There is a saying that a good cook can make a palatable dish even out of an old shoe; and a good writer can make the dryest things interesting.

With by far the largest number of learned men, knowledge is a means, not an end. That is why they will never achieve any great work; because, to do that, he who pursues knowledge must pursue it as an end, and treat everything else, even existence itself, as only a means. For everything which a man fails to pursue for its own sake is but half-pursued; and true excellence, no matter in what sphere, can be attained only where the work has been produced for its own sake alone, and not as a means to further ends.

And so, too, no one will ever succeed in doing anything really great and original in the way of thought, who does not seek to acquire knowledge for himself, and, making this the immediate object of his studies, decline to trouble himself about the knowledge of others. But the average man of learning studies for the purpose of being able to teach and write. His head is like a stomach and intestines which let the food pass through them undigested. That is just why his teaching and writing is of so little use. For it is not upon undigested refuse that people can be nourished, but solely upon the milk which secretes from the very blood itself.

The wig is the appropriate symbol of the man of learning, pure and simple. It adorns the head with a copious quantity of false hair, in lack of one's own: just as erudition means endowing it with a great mass of alien thought. This, to be sure, does not clothe the head so well and naturally, nor is it so generally useful, nor so suited for all purposes, nor so firmly rooted; nor when alien thought is used up, can it be immediately replaced by more from the same source, as is the case with that which springs from soil of one's own. So we find Sterne, in his Tristram Shandy, boldly asserting that an ounce of a man's own wit is worth a ton of other people's.

And in fact the most profound erudition is no more akin to genius than a collection of dried plants in like Nature, with its constant flow of new life, ever fresh, ever young, ever changing. There are no two things more opposed than the childish naïveté of an ancient author and the learning of his commentator.

Dilettanti, dilettanti! This is the slighting way in which those who pursue any branch of art or learning for the love and enjoyment of the thing,—per il loro diletto, are spoken of by those who have taken it up for the sake of gain, attracted solely by the prospect of money. This contempt of theirs comes from the base belief that no man will seriously devote himself to a subject, unless he is spurred on to it by want, hunger, or else some form of greed. The public is of the same way of thinking; and hence its general respect for professionals and its distrust of dilettanti. But the truth is that the dilettante treats his subject as an end, whereas the professional, pure and simple, treats it merely as a means. He alone will be really in earnest about a matter, who has a direct interest therein, takes to it because he likes it, and pursues it con amore. It is these, and not hirelings, that have always done the greatest work.

In the republic of letters it is as in other republics; favor is shown to the plain man—he who goes his way in silence and does not set up to be cleverer than others. But the abnormal man is looked upon as threatening danger; people band together against him, and have, oh! such a majority on their side.

The condition of this republic is much like that of a small State in America, where every man is intent only upon his own advantage, and seeks reputation and power for himself, quite heedless of the general weal, which then goes to ruin. So it is in the republic of letters; it is himself, and himself alone, that a man puts forward, because he wants to gain fame. The only thing in which all agree is in trying to keep down a really eminent man, if he should chance to show himself, as one who would be a common peril. From this it is easy to see how it fares with knowledge as a whole.

Between professors and independent men of learning there has always been from of old a certain antagonism, which may perhaps be likened to that existing been dogs and wolves. In virtue of their position, professors enjoy great facilities for becoming known to their contemporaries. Contrarily, independent men of learning enjoy, by their position, great facilities for becoming known to posterity; to which it is necessary that, amongst other and much rarer gifts, a man should have a certain leisure and freedom. As mankind takes a long time in finding out on whom to bestow its attention, they may both work together side by side.

He who holds a professorship may be said to receive his food in the stall; and this is the best way with ruminant animals. But he who finds his food for himself at the hands of Nature is better off in the open field.

Of human knowledge as a whole and in every branch of it, by far the largest part exists nowhere but on paper,—I mean, in books, that paper memory of mankind. Only a small part of it is at any given period really active in the minds of particular persons. This is due, in the main, to the brevity and uncertainty of life; but it also comes from the fact that men are lazy and bent on pleasure. Every generation attains, on its hasty passage through existence, just so much of human knowledge as it needs, and then soon disappears. Most men of learning are very superficial. Then follows a new generation, full of hope, but ignorant, and with everything to learn from the beginning. It seizes, in its turn, just so much as it can grasp or find useful on its brief journey and then too goes its way. How badly it would fare with human knowledge if it were not for the art of writing and printing! This it is that makes libraries the only sure and lasting memory of the human race, for its individual members have all of them but a very limited and imperfect one. Hence most men of learning as are loth to have their knowledge examined as merchants to lay bare their books.

Human knowledge extends on all sides farther than the eye can reach; and of that which would be generally worth knowing, no one man can possess even the thousandth part.

All branches of learning have thus been so much enlarged that he who would "do something" has to pursue no more than one subject and disregard all others. In his own subject he will then, it is true, be superior to the vulgar; but in all else he will belong to it. If we add to this that neglect of the ancient languages, which is now-a-days on the increase and is doing away with all general education in the humanities—for a mere smattering of Latin and Greek is of no use—we shall come to have men of learning who outside their own subject display an ignorance truly bovine.

An exclusive specialist of this kind stands on a par with a workman in a factory, whose whole life is spent in making one particular kind of screw, or catch, or handle, for some particular instrument or machine, in which, indeed, he attains incredible dexterity. The specialist may also be likened to a man who lives in his own house and never leaves it. There he is perfectly familiar with everything, every little step, corner, or board; much as Quasimodo in Victor Hugo's Nôtre Dame knows the cathedral; but outside it, all is strange and unknown.

For true culture in the humanities it is absolutely necessary that a man should be many-sided and take large views; and for a man of learning in the higher sense of the word, an extensive acquaintance with history is needful. He, however, who wishes to be a complete philosopher, must gather into his head the remotest ends of human knowledge: for where else could they ever come together?

It is precisely minds of the first order that will never be specialists. For their very nature is to make the whole of existence their problem; and this is a subject upon which they will every one of them in some form provide mankind with a new revelation. For he alone can deserve the name of genius who takes the All, the Essential, the Universal, for the theme of his achievements; not he who spends his life in explaining some special relation of things one to another.--Arthur Schopenhauer

[JamesBond007]

"I moved out of the house of the scholars, and I even slammed the door behind me. Too long did my soul sit hungry at their table; I am not, as they are, trained to pursue understanding as a kind of nut-cracking....I am too hot and burned by my own thoughts: often it almost takes my breath away...but they sit coolly in the cool shade: they want in all things to be mere spectators and are wary of sitting where the sun burns down upon the steps. Like those who stand in the street and gape at the people passing by, they too wait and gape at thoughts that others have had"--Nietzsche "Thus Spoke Zarathustra"

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[zebruh]

China is too large and dominant for such a concept I guess, not to mention the large political and economic differences between the various nations. I oppose pan-Europeanism and the EU but there's at least shared qualities between EU nations (liberal economics, democracy, etc).

Its not even that. They are just ethno nationalists with a hatred of japan from ww2. The government of china still runs anti japanese sentiments in their media from time to time i believe

[Mortimer]

I think it is a mix of both and the truth is inbetween. Because humans are 99% the same and succesfully always and still mix with eatch other thats why you need to draw the lines somewhere maybe with a law like in southafrica or jim crow, then you have the experience aspect, the genetic aspect, the looks aspect etc. if you mix all of these you get somehwere half way there that the truth is inbetween.

Just check this add, those people have the looks and experience of white persons yet they are not genetically 100% white and are proud that they found something exotic, yet their experience is white and they get mocked for now saying they are not 100% white


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8uvAn6Mk-s

[zebruh]

I'm just going to focus on small part of the CRT, which I think is the most important and which bother me the most.

CRT is among other things based on the following premises:
- That Whiteness is artificial
- That Whiteness is oppressive
So in short, they say it's an artificial idea that oppresses people. Those premises are the main reason why increasing number of intellectuals today buy into the idea that so called "Whiteness" should be abolished
So, to intellectually defeat it, you need to show people it's main premises are wrong mainly that Whiteness ISN'T artificial and that it ISN'T oppressive.

I have not researched exactly what is critical race theory properly. I just understand what people say against about it and what an sjw talking point is.

The fallacy I see with what I think i understand is that we burden the sins of others on to others that haven't commited those sins.





1.)Show them that "Whiteness" is NOT an artificial construct
- Europeans form a distinct genetic cluster separate from Middle Eastern and North African people. Greeks are closer to the French than to Turks, Portuguese are closer to Scandinavians than to Northwest Africans and Russians are closer to the British than to Central Asians. There is also a common European culture and history going back to Greece and Rome as well as common religion.

- Remind them that "Whiteness" would exist even if there was no slavery or colonialism. One of the most annoying ideas floating in the left wing circles is this idea that "race and White people was/were invented in order to justify slavery and colonialism. This is demonstrably false. Even if Europeans never settled in the New World, never practised slavery and always minded their own business, as the world eventually became globalized, so called Whiteness or some level of pan European identity would sooner or later emerge at least to some extent. A British person would still look at a Dutchman and clearly see he is more similar to him both physically as well as culturally than someone from Korea, Nigeria or the Americas.

Whiteness is somewhat a construct still. Because mixed people can still pass for white and some non white people can. Like certain indians and middle easterners. Even if genetically they arent european. Meanwhile thejr actual biological relative, like a sibling could be brown or more brown.
But yes DNA is real. But DNA can be funny also.
If they never practiced slavery or went to the new world they would have still been killing each other briefly unite to fight against muslims again. That was what they were doing before slavery became racialized in europe and in the Americas.
A dutchman would probably hate his neighbor maybe if they have been in several wars before and had his villages and family murdered by the neighboring state. Today in our time has more relative peaceful times than back then. We know this because this was an issue in the balkans actually. The average young brit is probably more interested in asian anime and video games from sony japan than what dutch culture is about.

She almost looks european except the nose.


https://youtu.be/bJqmXGARs4s



[video=youtube_share;JIUK2KSbvvI]https://youtu.be/JIUK2KSbvvI



2.) Debunk the idea that Whiteness is oppressive
Remind them that:
- Colonialism was universal to all parts of the world and had nothing to do with race.
- Europe was victim of colonialism as much as it was the perpetrator
- Slavery was universal to everyone and had nothing to do with race
- Europeans were the victims of non White slavery


No one is inherently oppressive just because of their race.

But the translantic slave trade was pretty big.

Past figures that happened to be white commited those crimes.
Its an unfortunate consequence that you are judged for it since you haven't commited that.


Slavery can happen to anyone of any demographic by any demographic.

Mostly europeans were colonizing each other but few instances like moors, turks persians and huns yes.



3.) Remind them that Whites are the least racist race in the world.
Show them that Whites treat racial minorities better than anyone else. Whites will not only allow large burdensome racial minorities to live in their countries, they will actually give them privileges like Affirmative action and it's European equivalents as well as diversity quotas. But not only that; they will go a step further and demonize themselves and teach totally one sided, exaggerated and de-contextualized narratives of history just to attempt to minimize the natural resentment against minorities that live in their countries at their expense. Chinese would never do that. Arabs would never do that. Indians would never do that. Only White people. Yet how are they thanked? By being demonized and attacked as the only perpetrators of racism.


I am not sure if whites are the least racists in the world.
But if you mean by laws, yes. Probably. Its why I would rather live in a western country than china. Japan has much more strict policy of for citizenship. But japanese seem like very modest people.


3. Show them that race is NOT just a social construct

The idea that race is just a social construct stems from several logical fallacies namely the continuum fallacy as well as deconstructionist fallacy. If race is a social construct then so are colors. You can philosophically deconstruct any concept you want. A species could also be seen as a social construct. So can a chair.


Race is a social construct.
But some people might treat you differently and that is real.

Colors are real. They are physical properties of how we percieve light. But thats how about it.



4. Remind them that racism would exist even if there would be no White people. Leftists believe racism is the greatest evil in the world. Because of very one sided narratives of history the first association of "racism" is racism of Whites against Blacks or non Whites. However racism ie tribalism is universal to all human races and even if White people were truly bread out of existence, racism would still exist. For example the only reason tensions between Blacks and Hispanics in the United States aren't higher is because they both still politically align under the same ideology against White people.

Racism is just a stupid form if tribalism.
Tribalism really has to do with your actual tribe or clan or ethnic group by a larger extension. Not because anyone just looks similar to you.

Racism would still exist today, I agree.
The transalantic slave trade just really facilitated that notion and made the issue a big topic.



5. And finally even if Whiteness was really artificial and it really oppressed people (which it isn't and it doesn't) the solution would not be to abolish White people. The solution would be just to leave White people alone and live in countries where White people can't oppress you. Separation is not oppression. In fact, separation is the opposite of oppression. (All groups that were oppressed throughout history sought secession from their oppressors). Take Japaneseness for example. Is it a social construct? Yes (all ethnic groups are social constructs) Has it historically oppressed people? Yes. Does it oppress people today? Yes. There are Koreans and Chinese living in Japan and they are discriminated against by Japanese. Yet does anyone push for so called Japaneseness to be abolished? No. If you don't want to be oppressed by Japanese, don't live in Japan. The same with so called Whiteness. If you don't want to be "oppressed" by Whites, don't live among Whites.

Seperation infringing on other peoples rights if you enforce that. Particularly if you force others to seperate. But there is also issues of telling others where they can and cannot live. I mean if you managed to find some peice of land where you can create a independant state where you are seperate. Its whatever I guess but really most people who believe in segregation dont honestly believe this in a honest way. They really would just like to have the others kind of kicked out or killed off. Or have a society where they are "seperate" but with the others in their society as some kind of lesser caste that benefits them in some way.