History of Croat-Serb relations

[The Journeyman]

Was it all that bad before the 20th century? Both nations were part of larger empires for much of their history, but weren't there times when they were on good terms? Perhaps, fighting more often for the same camp than not.

[Monolith]

The relationship between early medieval Croatian and Serbian people seems to have been quite cordial actually. The troubles began when Austria-Hungary started inviting Serbs and Slavic-speaking Orthodox Vlachs from Ottoman-occupied (modern) Bosnia and Herzegovina into war-devastated and partially depopulated Croatian territories (mid 16th century). There they served as free peasant soldiers and were exempt from paying taxes, unlike their Croatian counterparts. Naturally, Croatian peasants and nobles weren't exactly overjoyed by this development, partially because the newly arrived Orthodox population previously served as Ottoman raiders (martolozi, akindžije), and partially because they were unable to subdue them since they answered to Vienna alone.

Several centuries later, both Hungarians and Austrians tried to induce hatred between Serbs and Croats, though even that didn't stop the two peoples from forming a political coalition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croat-Serb_Coalition).

It all went to hell when first kingdom of Yugoslavia was established, where Croats wanted a decentralized state, whereas the Serbs wanted a Serbian-led centralized hegemony.

[Mordid]

2HaHy4e3oBU

[Guapo]

2HaHy4e3oBU

He look Polsih

[Himera]

it seems that we have some periodically sparks like " give a hug ",but it is obviously:

croatian gentlemanely and calculative sensibility , with serbian dangerous peasant bonhomie , gives a really dangerous alchemy .....

Bestimmt, sharing the same room do affects on the ashik ....

If we coudn't ... we woudn't ....
;):p:rolleyes2:

[Mordid]

He look Polsih

Indeed:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rUyDhdZLna8/TUFzsO6SKZI/AAAAAAAAeqs/WExm3t7bj6g/s1600/Lech-Walesa.jpg

[Storm 1995]

The relationship between early medieval Croatian and Serbian people seems to have been quite cordial actually. The troubles began when Austria-Hungary started inviting Serbs and Slavic-speaking Orthodox Vlachs from Ottoman-occupied (modern) Bosnia and Herzegovina into war-devastated and partially depopulated Croatian territories (mid 16th century). There they served as free peasant soldiers and were exempt from paying taxes, unlike their Croatian counterparts. Naturally, Croatian peasants and nobles weren't exactly overjoyed by this development, partially because the newly arrived Orthodox population previously served as Ottoman raiders (martolozi, akindžije), and partially because they were unable to subdue them since they answered to Vienna alone.

Several centuries later, both Hungarians and Austrians tried to induce hatred between Serbs and Croats, though even that didn't stop the two peoples from forming a political coalition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croat-Serb_Coalition).

It all went to hell when first kingdom of Yugoslavia was established, where Croats wanted a decentralized state, whereas the Serbs wanted a Serbian-led centralized hegemony.

Untrue. Serbo-Croatian squabbles started already in 19th century when Serbian nationalist politicians and writers started to lay claim on some Croatian territories as supposedly "Serb" and in need of "liberation". Then came the Croatian reaction.

The creation of the monstruous country called Yugoslavia exacerbated tensions among the two peoples and paved the way for the Second World War with its atrocities on both sides (though it was Serbs who started everything, in 1941, with the miseeds of their chetnik guerrillas). Then came 1991 when Serbs started aggression against Croatia, for absolutely no reason. They killed defenceless civilians with superior military power (that's the only way Serbs can make war, since they are scum and vermin without any honour), for which they were punished in the operation Storm, when several thousand Serb soldiers and civilians were killed. You know, rightful reveng is a bitch.

[arcticwolf]

First of all, no offense to any Slavic brothers, I don't know the history of the region well enough. I know the wounds are fairly recent. I just hate to see Slavs fight each other, belittle each other etc. I'll say this, I hope you guys can work out your differences and coexist in peace. Hate is never extinguished by hate, only by love. I know it sounds idealistic but it's true. Once again no offense meant brothers Slavs. Love and best wishes!

[Monolith]

Serbo-Croatian squabbles started already in 19th century when Serbian nationalist politicians and writers started to lay claim on some Croatian territories as supposedly "Serb" and in need of "liberation". Then came the Croatian reaction.
Yeah, that too.

[Adrian]

First of all, no offense to any Slavic brothers, I don't know the history of the region well enough. I know the wounds are fairly recent. I just hate to see Slavs fight each other, belittle each other etc. I'll say this, I hope you guys can work out your differences and coexist in peace. Hate is never extinguished by hate, only by love. I know it sounds idealistic but it's true. Once again no offense meant brothers Slavs. Love and best wishes!

I'm fascinated :rolleyes2:

Who are you..."Miss world" or something?!

[Марко Краљевић]

It is complicated.

The main difference comes from cultural imprint. Any later problem was simply amplified by it. Turks also played their part in it, like in everything concerning the Balkans.

With the destruction of Serbian state by the advancing Turks, Serbs started migrating towards North-West. Hungarian king Matthias Corvinus in order to protect his kingdoms southern borders, and back then Croatia was the part of Hungary from 1102, allowed Serbs to settle in border provinces which were depopulated. Serbs served as buffer zone between kingdom and advancing Turks. For their military service Serbs were awarded with land and the status of free peasants, unlike Croats who remained the serfs. This policy was latter accepted by German court, so Serbs were responsible directly to Hungarian king or later to German emperor to whom they payed taxes, and unlike Croats had no obligations to any other feudal overlord. This created the envy among Croats, who being of the same faith like kings and emperors, viewed this as only privilege granted to Serbs. In truth, the land that was given to Serbs was of lesser quality, subjected to frequent Turkish raids and free peasant status was payed by military service from which Croats were excluded.

So by the 19th century there was already the bad blood between the two nations.

[Monolith]

With the destruction of Serbian state by the advancing Turks, Serbs started migrating towards North-West. Hungarian king Matthias Corvinus in order to protect his kingdoms southern borders, and back then Croatia was the part of Hungary from 1102, allowed Serbs to settle in border provinces which were depopulated.
Several objections here: Vlachs were present in Croatia before Corvinus, and they weren't free, since they were subjects of Croatian feudal lords. They were čakavian-speaking Catholics and were mostly assimilated into Croatian folk of that time (dobri Vlahi svete krune kraljevstva Ugarskoga v Hrvatih, Valachi regni Croatiae). King Sigismond's Vlachs and king Matthias' Vlachs should not be confounded with Orthodox Vlachs (Vlachi schismatici), who came later, under Austria-Hungary.

Matthias' Hungary:
http://www.mek.oszk.hu/01900/01919/html/cd4a/kepek/history/to222cse059.jpg
Also, the kingdom of Croatia and later Croatia-Slavonia never became part of the Hungarian kingdom. It became part of the realm - Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen.


Serbs served as buffer zone between kingdom and advancing Turks. For their military service Serbs were awarded with land and the status of free peasants, unlike Croats who remained the serfs.
Now, Vlachs/Serbs weren't granted privileges because they served as frontiersmen for Austria but the other way around, they came to Croatia to serve as frontiersmen because the Austrians promised them privileges. And they weren't granted any land, though they did get the right to settle in the lands belonging to Croatian feudal lords. Unlike their predecessors from the time of Corvinus' Hungary, they were not subjects of these lords. This, in turn, created conflicts between Croatian nobility, Styrian military commanders of Croatian Military frontier and the newly arrived Vlachs. One Croatian noble, Nikola Frankopan described them in these words: "These Vlachs are an unpredictable and insolent breed, greedy and quick to use the situation for their own benefit.".


This created the envy among Croats, who being of the same faith like kings and emperors, viewed this as only privilege granted to Serbs. In truth, the land that was given to Serbs was of lesser quality, subjected to frequent Turkish raids and free peasant status was payed by military service from which Croats were excluded.

Yes, which is why great many Croatian peasants-serfs fled from bordering areas into Military frontier. Even though there were initially proposed great fines for that, and Styrian commanders were supposed to catch them and return them to their lords, that never actually happened. Hence, the 17th century frontiersmen were a heterogeneous mix of Orthodox Vlachs/Serbs, Croats native to the area, Bosnian Catholics who fled into the Military frontier (Predavci), Croats from bordering regions and even some Slovenes from Carniola.

[Raikaswinþs]

wouldn't you be all happy in a de-centralized trans south Slavic republic with separation of poweres, devolved parlaments and such?maybe even separate football teams "á lá British", but all in all, a much stronger an independent region?

I might be a fool, but as a basketball fan... I miss Yugoslavian gods so much xD

[morski]

wouldn't you be all happy in a de-centralized trans south Slavic republic with separation of poweres, devolved parlaments and such?maybe even separate football teams "á lá British", but all in all, a much stronger an independent region?

I might be a fool, but as a basketball fan... I miss Yugoslavian gods so much xD

You make that sound so good that I'd vote for Bulgaria to join in:)

[Caeruleus]

Why cant you people be friends ? After all you speak the same language. I have to say that this whole conflict thing escapes me. I just dont get it.

I some times think of what a great national football team Montenegro,Serbia, Bosnia and Croatia might have if they would be together again :eek: :thumb001:

[morski]

Why cant you people be friends ? After all you speak the same language. I have to say that this whole conflict thing escapes me. I just dont get it.

The nastiest conflicts are those between brothers. Cain and Abel.

[Monolith]

wouldn't you be all happy in a de-centralized trans south Slavic republic with separation of poweres, devolved parlaments and such?maybe even separate football teams "á lá British", but all in all, a much stronger an independent region?
No. Nobody cares about "a much stronger and independent region" either.

[Caeruleus]

The nastiest conflicts are those between brothers. Cain and Abel.

TRUE

[Monolith]

After all you speak the same language.
This is a very stupid stereotype, though admittedly a persistent one.

[Raikaswinþs]

This is a very stupid stereotype, though admittedly a persistent one.

they are different standards of the same language, and chunk Bosnian in too, much as Catalan, Valencian, and Balearic are. Only considered separate languages in some political contexts. No serious linguist would say that they are actual separate languages in the way, let's say Bulgarian and Slovenian are.

http://www.seelrc.org/webliography/bcs.ptml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=hbs


nobody cares for a strongerand more independent region



That is certainly sad

[Caeruleus]

No matter what croatians, montenigrins, bosnians and serbs might think Yugoslavia was a strong country (politically, economically ... you name it) and a stability factor in the Balkans. It was far much better than the present day situation when every man is the king of it's own village. Too bad that the parties involved couldn't overcome the diffrences between them.

[Monolith]

they are different standards of the same language, and chunk Bosnian in too, much as Catalan, Valencian, and Balearic are. Only considered separate languages in some political contexts. No serious linguist would say that they are actual separate languages in the way, let's say Bulbarian and Slovenian are

I don't think any linguist would equate "language" with "standard language".

[Caeruleus]

This is a very stupid stereotype, though admittedly a persistent one.

point me out the diffrences between croatian and serbian (I know that croatians use the latin alphabet, serbs use both latin and cyrillic)

can I ask you something ? If you speak to a serb do you understant what is he saying ? do you need a translator to help you understand ?

[Monolith]

No matter what croatians, montenigrins, bosnians and serbs might think Yugoslavia was a strong country (politically, economically ... you name it) and a stability factor in the Balkans. It was far much better than the present day situation when every man is the king of it's own village. Too bad that the parties involved couldn't overcome the diffrences between them.
That's BS. It was a artificial buffer state, created and sustained as a part of Versailles world order. Whatever power it had, it came with the blessing of Western powers.

Economically. :D Do I really need to waste words here? :D ;) :thumb001:

[Monolith]

point me out the diffrences between croatian and serbian (I know that croatians use the latin alphabet, serbs use both latin and cyrillic)
Croats natively speak three macro-dialects (languages), while Serbs speak one.

can I ask you something ? If you speak to a serb do you understant what is he saying ? do you need a translator to help you understand ?
Yes. I can also understand Slovenes.

[Caeruleus]

That's BS. It was a artificial buffer state, created and sustained as a part of Versailles world order. Whatever power it had, it came with the blessing of Western powers.

Economically. :D Do I really need to waste words here? :D ;) :thumb001:

buffer state ? I'm afraid I dont understand, a buffer zone for who ?

Yugoslavia was a communist state so its economy couldn't be as flourishing as that of capitalist states, but from what I know Yugoslavia was at that time one the strongest (if not the best) economies of the east.

[Raikaswinþs]

many speakers of ser-croat seemto have it clearer and less politically biased than Monolith

at least when it comes to swearing :D


ello,

I ran into an old post on your blog, and felt compelled to text wall you. Hope you don't mind, and you might find this interesiting. I'm not Serbian, but Croatian, and our languages are for all practical purposes quite simmilar dialects the same basic language. The swearing is legendary in world terms and Serbo-Croatian swearing is (reputedly) second only to Hungarian

http://talesofridiculousness.blogspot.com/2010/05/serbiancroatian-swear-words-explained.html

[Caeruleus]

Croats natively speak three macro-dialects (languages), while Serbs speak one.

Yes. I can also understand Slovenes.

well then, in my book thats the same language. :) I thought slovene is a little bit different from serbo-croatian (or serbian and croatian) :)

[Monolith]

buffer state ? I'm afraid I dont understand, a buffer zone for who ?
Cold war buffer zone, a communist state friendly towards the West.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/Iron_Curtain_map.svg/250px-Iron_Curtain_map.svg.png


Yugoslavia was a communist state so its economy couldn't be as flourishing as that of capitalist states, but from what I know Yugoslavia was at that time one the strongest (if not the best) economies of the east.
I can only repeat what I wrote in another thread (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12517):

"Incorrect. Other than the inherent shortcomings of socialism that were also plaguing other socialist economies, like the limited foreign exchange, the fact that relative prices did not reflect real expenses, nonexistent free entrepreneurship, etc., there were also several important detrimental factors peculiar to Yugoslavia's economy. The economy was so gravely mismanaged that the return on invested capital approached zero even faster than in other socialist countries. That was due to constant drain of capital from Slovenia and Croatia and investing it into terribly unprofitable and inefficient programs elsewhere in the ex federation. Also, at first, there were huge monetary injections into Yugoslavia from abroad, most notably from America, and huge loans afterwards. These funds were invested into different industries, most notably the military one. However, the productivity rates were so terrible, that almost one half of the entire working population was virtually superfluous, but remained employed due to a political ideology that was hell-bent on buying social peace by damaging the country's productivity, which gradually led to its downfall. Try repaying all the credits you received with an unprofitable/inefficient economy. Lay off the workers in order to increase productivity, and what you get are riots. What a lovely country it was. It's much easier to blame the IMF/Vatican/Extraterrestrials or whatnot for the failure of an artificial country that was bound to disintegrate eventually, than to study hard and learn everything about it. "

Simply put, Yugoslav economy was a failure.


many speakers of ser-croat seemto have it clearer and less politically biased than Monolith

at least when it comes to swearing :D

Here's some Serbian guy saying otherwise:

"Suggestion for differentiating Serbian and Croatian languages

Google toolbar translate does not differentiate well Serbian and Croatian.

It assumes that every page written in Latin alphabet is Croatian, which is wrong, since Serbian language use both Latin and Cyrillic alphabets.

I would be glad to help you improve algorithm. "
source (http://www.google.com/support/forum/p/Toolbar/thread?tid=16b5435de2316204&hl=en)

well then, in my book thats the same language. :) I thought slovene is a little bit different from serbo-croatian (or serbian and croatian) :)
All Slovene, Croatian, Serbian and Bulgarian dialects form a dialect continuum. That's not exactly a language. E.g. my signature is written in a markedly Croatian dialect, that practically zero Serbs speak natively. I said it many times here that Croatian dialects are very, very divergent. The isoglosses between them are such that they are practically different languages, more different than some Slavic standard languages (e.g. Czech vs. Slovak or Ukrainian vs. Belarusian).

[Sagitta Hungarica]

many speakers of ser-croat seemto have it clearer and less politically biased than Monolith

at least when it comes to swearing :D



http://talesofridiculousness.blogspot.com/2010/05/serbiancroatian-swear-words-explained.html

A slight off-topic just because you mentioned in that quote the famous Hungarian swearing. Allegedly the Holy Roman Emperor, Sigismund of Luxmebourg, even if being German loved swearing in Hungarian the most. This is a video of some epic Hungarian swearing, wish the English translation was more accurate though, but Hungarian swearing is very hard to translate :p:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4QcVdtbK_w

[Caeruleus]

My montenegro-serbian-bosnian-croatian dream team :D now please bear with me I'm a dreamer ;)

Asmir Begovic (BiH)

B. Ivanovic (SRB)-N. Vidic (SRB)-N. Subotic (SRB)-A. Kolarov (SRB)

M. Krasic (SRB)-D. Stankovic (Cpt.)(SRB)-L. Modric (CRO)-N. Kranjcar (CRO)

E. Dzeko (BiH)-M. Vucinic (MNE)


Substitutes

V. Corluka (CRO)
D. Lovren (CRO)
S. Savic (MNE)
S. Rajkovic (SRB)

Z. Kuzmanovic (SRB)
B. Jankovic (SRB)
M. Pjanic (BiH)
A. Ljajic (SRB)

S. Jovetic (MNE)
M. Sulejmani (SRB)

I would shit my pants if I had to face this team :thumb001:

[Caeruleus]

@ Monolith : Dobro moj brat :)

[mymy]

Croats natively speak three macro-dialects (languages), while Serbs speak one.



Dialect of South-Eastern Serbia doesn't have much to do with standard Serbian. That dialect is known as "prizrensko-timočki" in grammar books, BUT(!) there are few variants of it and one of those, the most famous, is Torlakian. Real prizrensko-timočki is spoken mostly on Kosovo, but South-Eastern Serbia doesn't speak same language. What many people don't know and what you can't read in all books is that this dialect isn't Shtokavian like other Serbian dialects, and instead of "šta/što", they use "kvo". Anyway, case system is totally different, only Nominative is used and sometimes Accusative and Vocative. There is important difference in words, for example kašika in standard Serbian is ložica, čuvati- varditi, pas-pce, činija-panica and so on... and there is one big difference in comparation with standard Serbian: in more Eastern parts, there is no L in O change in the end of word in male form of words(išao-iš'l) while in more Southern parts of this dialect they have ending finished on -ja. Some voices, like č, ć, đ, dž, sounds different than in standard Serbian and accents are not the same, they put v instead of f in some words. Sometimes instead of đ, there is j+d because change didn't happen(dođe-dojde).

Anyway, i wrote more that i should, but shtokavian isn't only Serbian dialect even books sometimes say opposite. Unfortunately, this language will be forgotten soon if we continue ignoring it. I read that in Bulgaria this dialect with some changes is known as Western Bulgarian and that Serbian and Bulgarian linguists doesn't agree on many things here. However, whole South-East Serbia speak it, if not officially then at least at home (i had opportunity to hear it), especially older generation.

[morski]

Dialect of South-Eastern Serbia doesn't have much to do with standard Serbian. That dialect is known as "prizrensko-timočki" in grammar books, BUT(!) there are few variants of it and one of those, the most famous, is Torlakian. Real prizrensko-timočki is spoken mostly on Kosovo, but South-Eastern Serbia doesn't speak same language. What many people don't know and what you can't read in all books is that this dialect isn't Shtokavian like other Serbian dialects, and instead of "šta/što", they use "kvo". Anyway, case system is totally different, only Nominative is used and sometimes Accusative and Vocative. There is important difference in words, for example kašika in standard Serbian is ložica, čuvati- varditi, pas-pce, činija-panica and so on... and there is one big difference in comparation with standard Serbian: in more Eastern parts, there is no L in O change in the end of word in male form of words(išao-iš'l) while in more Southern parts of this dialect they have ending finished on -ja. Some voices, like č, ć, đ, dž, sounds different than in standard Serbian and accents are not the same, they put v instead of f in some words. Sometimes instead of đ, there is j+d because change didn't happen(dođe-dojde).

Anyway, i wrote more that i should, but shtokavian isn't only Serbian dialect even books sometimes say opposite. Unfortunately, this language will be forgotten soon if we continue ignoring it. I read that in Bulgaria this dialect with some changes is known as Western Bulgarian and that Serbian and Bulgarian linguists doesn't agree on many things here. However, whole South-East Serbia speak it, if not officially then at least at home (i had opportunity to hear it), especially older generation.

That's because it is a Bulgarian dialect;) I don't need any subtitles when watching Zona Zamfirova and Ivkova Slava.

[Monolith]

Dialect of South-Eastern Serbia doesn't have much to do with standard Serbian. That dialect is known as "prizrensko-timočki" in grammar books, BUT(!) there are few variants of it and one of those, the most famous, is Torlakian. Real prizrensko-timočki is spoken mostly on Kosovo, but South-Eastern Serbia doesn't speak same language. What many people don't know and what you can't read in all books is that this dialect isn't Shtokavian like other Serbian dialects, and instead of "šta/što", they use "kvo". Anyway, case system is totally different, only Nominative is used and sometimes Accusative and Vocative. There is important difference in words, for example kašika in standard Serbian is ložica, čuvati- varditi, pas-pce, činija-panica and so on... and there is one big difference in comparation with standard Serbian: in more Eastern parts, there is no L in O change in the end of word in male form of words(išao-iš'l) while in more Southern parts of this dialect they have ending finished on -ja. Some voices, like č, ć, đ, dž, sounds different than in standard Serbian and accents are not the same, they put v instead of f in some words. Sometimes instead of đ, there is j+d because change didn't happen(dođe-dojde).

Absolutely. I know many linguists classify Torlak dialect as a subdialect of Štokavian (old štokavian), though I agree that it should be called the second Serbian macro-dialect. It's a rather interesting dialect/language that preserves many archaic proto-Slavic features, with the exception of its case system. Its territorial distribution roughly corresponds to the territory inhabited by non-Slavic speakers in the early middle ages, presumably Romance and paleo-Balkan ones, so that's why it has some features that connect it with other languages of the Balkan sprachbund. Thanks for all these examples. ;)

What I find extremely irritating is when some foreigners totally ignorant on the subject lump all this linguistic treasure together (into SC).

[Guapo]

Orthodox Vlah from Croatia

http://svt.se/content/1/c6/22/11/77/kro_dado_prso.jpg

[Monolith]

D. Lovren (CRO)
S. Savic (MNE)
S. Rajkovic (SRB)

Lovren is terrible player. :(

[Makedonski]

That's because it is a Bulgarian dialect;) I don't need any subtitles when watching Zona Zamfirova and Ivkova Slava.

All South Slavic languages are dialects of Bulgarian to you.


Dialect of South-Eastern Serbia doesn't have much to do with standard Serbian. That dialect is known as "prizrensko-timočki" in grammar books, BUT(!) there are few variants of it and one of those, the most famous, is Torlakian. Real prizrensko-timočki is spoken mostly on Kosovo, but South-Eastern Serbia doesn't speak same language. What many people don't know and what you can't read in all books is that this dialect isn't Shtokavian like other Serbian dialects, and instead of "šta/što", they use "kvo". Anyway, case system is totally different, only Nominative is used and sometimes Accusative and Vocative. There is important difference in words, for example kašika in standard Serbian is ložica, čuvati- varditi, pas-pce, činija-panica and so on... and there is one big difference in comparation with standard Serbian: in more Eastern parts, there is no L in O change in the end of word in male form of words(išao-iš'l) while in more Southern parts of this dialect they have ending finished on -ja. Some voices, like č, ć, đ, dž, sounds different than in standard Serbian and accents are not the same, they put v instead of f in some words. Sometimes instead of đ, there is j+d because change didn't happen(dođe-dojde).

Anyway, i wrote more that i should, but shtokavian isn't only Serbian dialect even books sometimes say opposite. Unfortunately, this language will be forgotten soon if we continue ignoring it. I read that in Bulgaria this dialect with some changes is known as Western Bulgarian and that Serbian and Bulgarian linguists doesn't agree on many things here. However, whole South-East Serbia speak it, if not officially then at least at home (i had opportunity to hear it), especially older generation.

There are influences of Torlakian in Macedonia as well. You see names of villages end with ce for example.

[Duke]

My montenegro-serbian-bosnian-croatian dream team :D now please bear with me I'm a dreamer ;)

Asmir Begovic (BiH)

B. Ivanovic (SRB)-N. Vidic (SRB)-N. Subotic (SRB)-A. Kolarov (SRB)

M. Krasic (SRB)-D. Stankovic (Cpt.)(SRB)-L. Modric (CRO)-N. Kranjcar (CRO)

E. Dzeko (BiH)-M. Vucinic (MNE)


Substitutes

V. Corluka (CRO)
D. Lovren (CRO)
S. Savic (MNE)
S. Rajkovic (SRB)

Z. Kuzmanovic (SRB)
B. Jankovic (SRB)
M. Pjanic (BiH)
A. Ljajic (SRB)

S. Jovetic (MNE)
M. Sulejmani (SRB)

I would shit my pants if I had to face this team :thumb001:

Putting serbs in our team would just downgrade it, and funniest thing you put most of them in starting 11, lol

[Duke]

Orthodox Vlah from Croatia

http://svt.se/content/1/c6/22/11/77/kro_dado_prso.jpg

he said in media

"Ja sam Hrvat, presretan sam što sam dobio majicu s hrvatskim grbom i što sam mogao Hrvatskoj nešto malo pridonijeti. Ja sam Hrvat, sve ostalo su gluposti."

For you who don't understand

"I am a Croat, I am delighted that I got a shirt with the Croatian coat of arms, and I have little to contribute to Croatia. I am a Croat, everything else is nonsense."

:thumb001:

[Sylvanus]

I am expecting when will arrive the first hungarian guy that declare Croatia and Serbia are ancient Hungarian land since the Creation...

[Caeruleus]

Putting serbs in our team would just downgrade it, and funniest thing you put most of them in starting 11, lol

well, Stankovic is not what he used to be but I couldn't find a better central defending midfielder. Krasic may not be the best right midfielder in the world but he's got speed and good crossing ability.

Serbia's back four is just top-class, I cant see anyone breaking into that defence.

I selected what I think to be the best ex-yugoslav players (and as young as possible)

Croatia is a top-notch football team :thumb001: I cant wait to see the serbo-croatian confrontation in the FIFA 2014 WC qualifiers. Should be one hell of a game (2 games actually) ;)

[Monolith]

I am expecting when will arrive the first hungarian guy that declare Croatia and Serbia are ancient Hungarian land since the Creation...
Are there such Hungarians?

wI cant wait to see the serbo-croatian confrontation in the FIFA 2014 WC qualifiers. Should be one hell of a game (2 games actually) ;)
Me too, although both teams are miserable at present. I mean, we lost to Greece and Serbia lost a crucial game against Slovenia. How lame is that?

[Sagitta Hungarica]

I am expecting when will arrive the first hungarian guy that declare Croatia and Serbia are ancient Hungarian land since the Creation...

Shamefully provoking inter-ethnic conflicts. What is your role on this forum, besides propagating anti-Hungarian propaganda, and trying to create conflicts between Hungarians and their neighbors? This type of message comes directly from the trolling manual.

[Sylvanus]

Shamefully provoking inter-ethnic conflicts. What is your role on this forum, besides propagating anti-Hungarian propaganda, and trying to create conflicts between Hungarians and their neighbors? This type of message comes directly from the trolling manual.

You spread always hungarian chauvinist propaganda (Greater-Hungary, Trianon, etc.) and spread that hungarians came from Central-Asia and make inter-ethnic conflicts. And accuse you me of provocation? After you wonder if the slovaks and romans hate hungarians and call you mongolian gypsy. You dishonour Hungary and divide the european people. Takarodj vissza a hunhírre az injekciós baromságaiddal.

[morski]

All South Slavic languages are dialects of Bulgarian to you.

The South Slavic language in use in FYROM and the Torlak vernacular are dialects of Bulgarian. West of Morava - not Bulgarian.

[Monolith]

The South Slavic language in use in FYROM and the Torlak vernacular are dialects of Bulgarian. West of Morava - not Bulgarian.
MMmmm, that's false. At least by linguistic standards, that is.

'Bulgarian' is not a phylogenetic term. Unless you are contending that the entire East South Slavic continuum derives from some ancient Bulgarian language.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

You spread always hungarian chauvinist propaganda (Greater-Hungary, Trianon, etc.) and spread that hungarians came from Central-Asia and make inter-ethnic conflicts. And accuse you me of provocation? After you wonder if the slovaks and romans hate hungarians and call you mongolian gypsy. You dishonour Hungary and divide the european people. Takarodj vissza a hunhírre az injekciós baromságaiddal.

So you can actually speak Hungarian. Than your anti-Hungarian, self-hating, treacherous attitude on this site means only one thing: you are a Marxist-liberal troll from Hungary, possibly of Jewish descent. Your parasitic kind doesn't produce nothing to Hungary, except propagating anti-Hungarian propaganda on international forums. I expect your trolling butt to be banned.

First, however I demand you bring me quotations to all the things you accused me in the paragraph I highlighted. If you cannot bring to all those things exact quotations from my posts than I solicit from you to dissolve your account.

[morski]

MMmmm, that's false. At least by linguistic standards, that is.

'Bulgarian' is not a phylogenetic term. Unless you are contending that the entire East South Slavic continuum derives from some ancient Bulgarian language.

Exactly. Bulgarian used to be the Dachsprache for the whole East South Slavic continuum before commies changed its orthography. FYROM's standard language was codified(the process started) in 1944 at ASNOM. Prior to that they used Serbian as official language in the Vardar Banovina and spoke Bulgarian at home.

I'd say that Bulgarian at the present has 3 standardized varieties- Bulgarian, the official language of FYROM and Banat Bulgarian, known as nasinski.

[Guapo]

So you can actually speak Hungarian. Than your anti-Hungarian, self-hating, treacherous attitude on this site means only one thing: you are a Marxist-liberal troll from Hungary, possibly of Jewish descent. Your parasitic kind doesn't produce nothing to Hungary, except propagating anti-Hungarian propaganda on international forums. I expect your trolling butt to be banned.

First, however I demand you bring me quotations to all the things you accused me in the paragraph I highlighted. If you cannot bring to all those things exact quotations from my posts than I solicit from you to dissolve your account.

:blink:

[Sylvanus]

So you can actually speak Hungarian. Than your anti-Hungarian, self-hating, treacherous attitude on this site means only one thing: you are a Marxist-liberal troll from Hungary, possibly of Jewish descent. Your parasitic kind doesn't produce nothing to Hungary, except propagating anti-Hungarian propaganda on international forums. I expect your trolling butt to be banned.

First, however I demand you bring me quotations to all the things you accused me in the paragraph I highlighted. If you cannot bring to all those things exact quotations from my posts than I solicit from you to dissolve your account.

Your hate post is reported.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

Your hate post is reported.

I am glad that my senses for smelling rats didn't changed :cool:

[Makedonski]

Exactly. Bulgarian used to be the Dachsprache for the whole East South Slavic continuum before commies changed its orthography. FYROM's standard language was codified(the process started) in 1944 at ASNOM. Prior to that they used Serbian as official language in the Vardar Banovina and spoke Bulgarian at home.

I'd say that Bulgarian at the present has 3 standardized varieties- Bulgarian, the official language of FYROM and Banat Bulgarian, known as nasinski.

Absolutely ridiculous. Dachsprache of Southern Balkans? Let's hint you in a bit, the Bulgarians propagandised that Macedonians were nothing but Slavs speaking a Bulgarian dialect as soon as the Bulgarians gained their independence. The Serbs claimed we were South Serbs. The Greeks claimed we were Slavophone Greeks. Why did such ambiguity exist if we were nothing but Bulgarian? There is only one explanation, denial of our identity to carve out a Greater state to control all of Macedonia which sits on a strategic route in the Balkans.

Such propaganda was made possible due to the poor educational state of Macedonia during the Ottoman years. Being Slavic and Orthodox in Macedonia had no special benefit. You had to be either Greek or Turkish to get a great education.

Additionally, If we were just Bulgarian then people like Krste wouldn't have existed. Krste founded a Literary Club in St. Petersburg and he recognised the separateness of Bulgarians and Macedonians, despite Bulgarian propaganda. To claim we are just Bulgarian is akin to claiming Czechs or Slovaks are West Poles in denial. It's absolute stupidity, ignoring historical realities of the region, all because of romantic nationalism. Based on the history of a medieval state called Bulgaria that once ruled over Macedonia 500 years ago. Hardly strong justification for your country to rule over Macedonia.

There is only one Macedonia and that is an independent Macedonia for the Macedonians.

[morski]

Absolutely ridiculous. Dachsprache of Southern Balkans? Let's hint you in a bit, the Bulgarians propagandised that Macedonians were nothing but Slavs speaking a Bulgarian dialect as soon as the Bulgarians gained their independence. The Serbs claimed we were South Serbs. The Greeks claimed we were Slavophone Greeks. Why did such ambiguity exist if we were nothing but Bulgarian? There is only one explanation, denial of our identity to carve out a Greater state to control all of Macedonia which sits on a strategic route in the Balkans.

Such propaganda was made possible due to the poor educational state of Macedonia during the Ottoman years. Being Slavic and Orthodox in Macedonia had no special benefit. You had to be either Greek or Turkish to get a great education.

Additionally, If we were just Bulgarian then people like Krste wouldn't have existed. Krste founded a Literary Club in St. Petersburg and he recognised the separateness of Bulgarians and Macedonians, despite Bulgarian propaganda. To claim we are just Bulgarian is akin to claiming Czechs or Slovaks are West Poles in denial. It's absolute stupidity, ignoring historical realities of the region, all because of romantic nationalism. Based on the history of a medieval state called Bulgaria that once ruled over Macedonia 500 years ago. Hardly strong justification for your country to rule over Macedonia.

There is only one Macedonia and that is an independent Macedonia for the Macedonians.


The population of Macedonia consists of Bulgarians, Turks, Albanians, Vlachs, Jews and Gypsies.
Gyorche Petrov.

So from which exactly Macedonians do you hail? Alexander's? Hunza? Kalash? You cousin of Ghazanfar Ali Khan?

It's sad to be a citizen of FYROMian Titostan I really sympathize with you.

[Makedonski]

Gyorche Petrov.

So from which exactly Macedonians do you hail? Alexander's? Hunza? Kalash? You cousin of Ghazanfar Ali Khan?

It's sad to be a citizen of FYROMian Titostan I really sympathize with you.

No, it's not sad at all. I'm proud of who I am. I'm very proud of my ancestors who fought so hard and finally won our independence from Bulgarian, Serbian and Greek chauvinism.

I recognise the classical history of Macedonia as part of my history because we are Macedonian, regardless of how strong or weak the link may be between ancient and modern Macedonians.

To debunk your claim that Macedonians were born by 1944 -- here's a link that'll take you to a page explaining how 15,000 early immigrants to America before 1944 identified as only Macedonian.

Enjoy: http://www.scribd.com/doc/18622444/A-Snapshot-Of-Early-Macedonian-Immigration-to-USA

[Sagitta Hungarica]

No, it's not sad at all. I'm proud of who I am. I'm very proud of my ancestors who fought so hard and finally won our independence from Bulgarian, Serbian and Greek chauvinism.

I recognise the classical history of Macedonia as part of my history because we are Macedonian, regardless of how strong or weak the link may be between ancient and modern Macedonians.

To debunk your claim that Macedonians were born by 1944 -- here's a link that'll take you to a page explaining how 15,000 early immigrants to America before 1944 identified as only Macedonian.

Enjoy: http://www.scribd.com/doc/18622444/A-Snapshot-Of-Early-Macedonian-Immigration-to-USA

Perhaps they were from the Greek region called Macedonia. As I heard, they have a very strong regional identity.

[Makedonski]

Perhaps they were from the Greek region called Macedonia. As I heard, they have a very strong regional identity.

And what evidence do you have to support your argument? Zilch.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

And what evidence do you have to support your argument? Zilch.

I was just guessing, that's why I said "perhaps". Maybe you can prove that those 15000 people were Slavic Macedonians.

[Makedonski]

I was just guessing, that's why I said "perhaps". Maybe you can prove that those 15000 people were Slavic Macedonians.

Because Greeks have always identified as Greek? That's common knowledge. The Greeks haven't called themselves Athenian, Spartan, whatever since the ancient era. So it's only logical that Macedonian immigrants to America were Macedonians.

[morski]

No, it's not sad at all. I'm proud of who I am. I'm very proud of my ancestors who fought so hard and finally won our independence from Bulgarian, Serbian and Greek chauvinism.

I recognise the classical history of Macedonia as part of my history because we are Macedonian, regardless of how strong or weak the link may be between ancient and modern Macedonians.

To debunk your claim that Macedonians were born by 1944 -- here's a link that'll take you to a page explaining how 15,000 early immigrants to America before 1944 identified as only Macedonian.

Enjoy: http://www.scribd.com/doc/18622444/A-Snapshot-Of-Early-Macedonian-Immigration-to-USA

And how exactly is this pamphlet a proof for anything?

There are few true Macedonians on this forum you know- dandelion and Wanderlust(Greek Macedonians) and ranger(Bulgarian Macedonian) to name some. You on the other hand are just an Ex-Yugoslav (with my respect to the Ex-Yugoslavs with real ethnicities).

Now I personally don't give a shit what you call yourself but to claim that the Bulgarians who struggled for religious and political freedom in Macedonia were "ethnic Macedonians"(despite what they themselves have been so kind to attest in writing) is just ugly. It's like taking a shit on your father's grave. So be an ethnic Macedonian and be proud with your history which begins in 1944 with Tito, Tempo and the rest of the criminal gang.

[Makedonski]

And how exactly is this pamphlet a proof for anything?

There are few true Macedonians on this forum you know- dandelion and Wanderlust(Greek Macedonians) and ranger(Bulgarian Macedonian) to name some. You on the other hand are just an Ex-Yugoslav (with my respect to the Ex-Yugoslavs with real ethnicities).

Now I personally don't give a shit what you call yourself but to claim that the Bulgarians who struggled for religious and political freedom in Macedonia were "ethnic Macedonians"(despite what they themselves have been so kind to attest in writing) is just ugly. It's like taking a shit on your father's grave. So be an ethnic Macedonian and be proud with your history which begins in 1944 with Tito, Tempo and the rest of the criminal gang.

It must be really sad to deny the existence of an entire ethnic group. I'll just recognise Bulgarians as Slavophone Turks and Greeks Hellenophone Turks. Have a nice day.

[Queen B]

Because Greeks have always identified as Greek? That's common knowledge. The Greeks haven't called themselves Athenian, Spartan, whatever since the ancient era. So it's only logical that Macedonian immigrants to America were Macedonians.
Wrong. There are many Greeks from very specific places that identify themselves regionally.
A Cretan for example, most likely will first tell that he is Cretan, and later that he is Greek. Its like the Sicilians from Italy.



There are few true Macedonians on this forum you know- dandelion and Wanderlust(Greek Macedonians) and ranger(Bulgarian Macedonian) to name some. You on the other hand are just an Ex-Yugoslav (with my respect to the Ex-Yugoslavs with real ethnicities).



It must be really sad to deny the existence of an entire ethnic group. I'll just recognise Bulgarians as Slavophone Turks and Greeks Hellenophone Turks. Have a nice day.

You see Morski? He is crying out loud that he ''is not recognised'' and at the same time he denies that right of someone , Greek or Bulgarian, or whatever, to call himself Macedonian. Who? Someone who isn't even Macedonian.But anyways...

No matter what, we - Greeks - call ourselves Greeks for thousands of years. Greeks that include Thebans,Athenians,Macedonians, Cretans, Ionian Islanders, etc etc..

Not Macedonians - (50 years ago ) Yugoslavians - (100 years ago) Bulgarians and Serbs...

[Guapo]

Slav ,Bulhgar Macedonians are fake just like kosovars.

[Monolith]

Exactly. Bulgarian used to be the Dachsprache for the whole East South Slavic continuum before commies changed its orthography. FYROM's standard language was codified(the process started) in 1944 at ASNOM. Prior to that they used Serbian as official language in the Vardar Banovina and spoke Bulgarian at home.

Whether it was a dachsprache or not is not important here. The entire sub-continuum developed from proto-Slavic, not from this frequently used dialect.

[morski]

Whether it was a dachsprache or not is not important here. The entire sub-continuum developed from proto-Slavic, not from this frequently used dialect.

Proto-Slavic? Middle Bulgarian is the right answer. Sorry.

We are talking EAST South Slavic continuum, right?

[Monolith]

Proto-Slavic? Middle Bulgarian is the right answer. Sorry.

We are talking EAST South Slavic continuum, right?
So, the entire East South Slavic dialect continuum came into being as a result of diversification of one dialect that covered the entire territory? I think not.

[morski]

So, the entire East South Slavic dialect continuum came into being as a result of diversification of one dialect that covered the entire territory? I think not.

Now there may have been dialectical differences throughout history but the fact is that all of those dialects ALWAYS had the normative Bulgarian be it Old Bulgarian, Middle Bulgarian or New Bulgarian as the Dachsprache.

Have it your way though. Either way FYROMians think of themselves as "Macedonians" and the Torlaks are now Serbians so it doesn't really matter. I'm not an iredentist, it's just that most honest linguists would agree with me, not with you.

[Monolith]

Now there may have been dialectical differences throughout history but the fact is that all of those dialects ALWAYS had the normative Bulgarian be it Old Bulgarian, Middle Bulgarian or New Bulgarian as the Dachsprache.

Have it your way though. Either way FYROMians think of themselves as "Macedonians" and the Torlaks are now Serbians so it doesn't really matter. I'm not an iredentist, it's just that most honest linguists would agree with me, not with you.
I think you got me wrong, for some reason. I really don't care if Macedonians are Bulgarians or not.

What I was trying to say was, different parts of the said dialect continuum served as the foundation for standardization of Bulgarian and Macedonian languages, respectively. These dialects do not descend from any dachsprache, but rather from proto-Slavic language.

Honestly, I don't see any point in discussing about whether that's true or false, really.

[morski]

I think you got me wrong, for some reason. I really don't care if Macedonians are Bulgarians or not.

What I was trying to say was, different parts of the said dialect continuum served as the foundation for standardization of Bulgarian and Macedonian languages, respectively. These dialects do not descend from any dachsprache, but rather from proto-Slavic language.

Honestly, I don't see any point in discussing about whether that's true or false, really.

All parts of the continuum served as foundation for standardization of New Bulgarian, only some for the official language of FYROM.

[Monolith]

All parts of the continuum served as foundation for standardization of New Bulgarian, only some for the official language of FYROM.
I'm just an interested observer, but I was under the impression that features characteristic of Eastern Bulgarian dialects predominate in the contemporary Bulgarian standard?

I remember reading somewhere that the dialect spoken around Veliko Tarnovo is the closest to your standard. Is that correct?

[morski]

I'm just an interested observer, but I was under the impression that features characteristic of Eastern Bulgarian dialects predominate in the contemporary Bulgarian standard?

I remember reading somewhere that the dialect spoken around Veliko Tarnovo is the closest to your standard. Is that correct?

Yes, that's correct.

Still, standard pronunciation is closer to western dialects. There are also grammar features present in standard language that are exclusively western, like the Gerund and others.

Overall the normative New Bulgarian serves perfectly as the Dachsprache(and I say that for the 3d or 4th time already) for all dialects of the East South Slavic continuum. That is before the commies changed its orthography.

There was no need what so ever to develop a new standard language for the FYROMians except for political reasons.

And that would be my last post in this thread. Too much off-topic.