What did the Aryans look like?

[HectorOfTroy]

The real Aryans/Kurgans, who likely had their homeland in Far Eastern Europe or Eurasia. Not hitlers delusional demonic inspired/pagan inspired by blavatsky's fantasy theories "aryans wuz from scandinavia and atlantis" raving lunacy garbage. I heard they had some ANE input, so possibly slightly asianized? the Kalash people from Pakistan (who are mainly R1) and the R1 mummies found in Xinjiang china have robust chiselled cro magnid features, so the thought of them looking like a leptoprosopic nordoid facial type seems very unlikley. It says they had genes for blonde hair and blue eyes, although the majority of them did not have blonde hair and blue eyes, they were probably auburn/dark haired and had hazel or green eyes as is common for Northern Indians/certain persians and Kalash people. I'm guessing they looked like modern day Eastern Europeans without the alpine/baltic/brachycephalic input.

From what i see from the skulls (Yamnaya skulls) i see a noticeable resemblance to the paleo american skulls (They both had ANE input and lived close to each other) with normal-slightly tall orbits, forward set broad and square cheekbones and medium-length to tall face with chiseled features. you think they probably looked like tall faced Caucasoid cro-magnons with a slight asiatic input?

109533

This beautiful turkish actress comes to mind
109534

[Avicenna]

Afghans

https://i.ibb.co/XX41STh/Screenshot-20210620-170606-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/31s2BHD)
https://i.ibb.co/pvhrcxb/Screenshot-20210818-171710-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/Y70Tm3P)
https://i.ibb.co/bQfp2sF/Screenshot-20210818-175732-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/ZGZyYBS)
https://i.ibb.co/VYY1bQr/Screenshot-20210818-171959-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/9HHDBVz)
https://i.ibb.co/xfqnFcd/Screenshot-20210823-103747-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/P9G2Db0)
https://i.ibb.co/FxZmDR8/Screenshot-20210823-103630-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/GxYn5zC)
https://i.ibb.co/HG3HV9q/Screenshot-20210823-103636-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/7rL1X0K)

https://i.ibb.co/Pt1rk7D/Screenshot-20210323-112352.jpg (https://ibb.co/mShRpLN)
https://i.ibb.co/1KRvbKH/Screenshot-20210402-153334.jpg (https://ibb.co/BjTzwj8)
https://i.ibb.co/Jsb8dQy/Screenshot-20210319-140317.jpg (https://ibb.co/yQMKRSY)
https://i.ibb.co/tMrSTMw/Screenshot-20210428-232847-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/BVMm5VH)
https://i.ibb.co/tz5DZWg/Screenshot-20210319-002616.jpg (https://ibb.co/PM8gTfK)
https://i.ibb.co/JsFRQm0/Screenshot-20210415-123532.jpg (https://ibb.co/HHpDdB1)
https://i.ibb.co/y5pj8HH/Screenshot-20210823-102207.jpg (https://ibb.co/RPNwCRR)

According to a study from 2012 called "Afghanistan from a Y-chromosome perspective," the study from a sample size of 190 showed R1a1a-M198 to be the most dominant haplogroup in Pashtuns at 67.4%. In the north, it peaks at 50% while in the south, it peaks at 65.8%.[181] R1a-Z2125 occurs at a frequency of 40% in Pashtuns from Northern Afghanistan.[182] This subclade is also predominantly present among Tajik, Turkmen, Uzbek, and Bashkir ethnic groups,[183] as well as in some populations in the Caucasus and Iran.[184]

According to a Mitochondrial DNA analysis of four ethnic groups of Afghanistan, the majority of mtDNA among Afghan Pashtuns belongs to West Eurasian lineages, and share a greater affinity with West Eurasian and Central Asian populations rather than to populations of South Asia or East Asia.

A 2019 study on autosomal STR profiles of the populations of South and North Afghanistan states:[187]

"We observe an overall topology that reflects the general partitioning patterns seen in the MDS plot with the Afghan groups exhibiting close genetic affinities to Near Eastern groups"

The early precursors to modern-day Pashtuns may have been old Iranian tribes that spread throughout the eastern Iranian plateau.[81][82]

According to Yu. V. Gankovsky:[83]

"The Pashtuns began as a union of largely East-Iranian tribes which became the initial ethnic stratum of the Pashtun ethnogenesis, dates from the middle of the first millennium CE and is connected with the dissolution of the Epthalite (White Huns) confederacy. ... Of the contribution of the Epthalites (White Huns) to the ethnogenesis of the Pashtuns we find evidence in the ethnonym of the largest of the Pashtun tribe unions, the Abdali (Durrani after 1747) associated with the ethnic name of the Epthalites — Abdal. The Siah-posh, the Kafirs (Nuristanis) of the Hindu Kush, called all Pashtuns by a general name of Abdal still at the beginning of the 19th century."

— Gankvosky, History of Afganistan

"..major linguist Georg Morgenstierne has described Pashto as a Saka dialect and many others have observed the similarities between Pashto and other Saka languages as well, suggesting that the original Pashto-speakers might have been a Saka group.[96][97] Furthemore Pashto and Ossetian, another Scythian-descending language, share cognates in their vocabulary which other Eastern Iranian languages lack[98] Cheung suggests a common isogloss between Pashto and Ossetian which he explains by an undocumented Saka dialect being spoken close to reconstructed Old Pashto which was likely spoken north of the Oxus at that time.[99] "

https://i.ibb.co/n8JNdS0/220px-Saka-warrior-Termez-Achaeological-Museum.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)
https://i.ibb.co/yP8PMFG/Hadda-Types.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

Head of a saka warrior and heads of two males found I'm Hadda, jalalabad 3-4th century CE.

Strabo, the Greek geographer, in the Geographica (written between 43 BC to 23 AD) makes mention of the Pasiani (Πασιανοί), this has been identified with Pashtuns given that Pashto is an Eastern-Iranian language[115] and Pashtuns reside in the area[116] once termed Ariana.[117][118] Strabo states:[119]

"Most of the Scythians...each separate tribe has its peculiar name. All, or the greatest part of them, are nomades. The best known tribes are those who deprived the Greeks of Bactriana, the Asii, Pasiani, Tochari, and Sacarauli, who came from the country on the other side of the Iaxartes (Syr Darya)"

— Strabo, The Geography, Book XI, Chapter 8, Section 2

[Veslan]

This is a very tricky question. Mostly because the term "Aryans" is kinda outdated and confusing, some people by saying Aryans mean the Proto-Indo-Europeans (Yamna culture), some mean exclusively Proto-Indo-Iranians (Andronovo culture), others mean exclusively those of Andronovo culture that invaded India and became upper castes like Brahmins, Kshatriya and Vaishya. I suppose you mean both.

Firstly, the ANE people, who were of course, European Cro-Magnoid Caucasoids altered by Proto-Mongoloid type. By Proto-Mongoloid i mean they had lower cephalic index and "tougher" features than the most of modern day East Asians, although they had still other distinctive Mongoloid traits such as prognathism, epicanthic folds, and flattened nose bridge (so they were neither Turanid, nor Lappoid...). Although more eastern than WHG and farmers, ANE were the ones to develop genes for blond hair, even though it was in the minority back then.

These ANE who came to Eastern Europe became Eastern Hunter Gatherers, and these who came to Caucasus, Caucasian Hunther Gatherers. Both groups assimilated previously living hunter gatherer groups they met on their way, thus tendency was for post-ANE HGs to become less Mongoloid and more Caucasoid each generation.

EHG and CHG who met on the Pontic-Caspian steppe domesticated horses and became the Yamna culture (3300–2600 BC). Phenotypically, they were dolichocephals of three different types: broad faced and primitive Cro-Magnoid, mesoprosopic intermediate ("Brunn"-like), and leptoprosopic and gracile ("East Med"-like). Some of the more CHG influenced ones also became what we would call "Corded Proto-Nordic" type, showing great resemblence to Iranid metrically. They were predominantly dark haired and dark eyed, although did carry genes for blond hair and blue eyes (latter being developed by WHG) as well.

https://i.imgur.com/I6kpVht.png
https://i.imgur.com/CnTKVlH.jpg
https://humanjourney.us/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/MaleYamnaya1.jpg

Some modern Yamna reconstructions. As it can be noticed: rather swarthy, but somewhat progressive leaning. Boldyrevo man leans towards being a "Pontid" type, while Bykovo man shows residual Mongoloid...

Then Northwesternmost Yamna people invaded Central Europe and created Corded Ware culture (2900 BC – 2350 BC), admixing with the EEF farmer populations living there, who were, ironically, way lighter pigmented than them, or at least this is what genetic evidence implies. Some of these Corded Ware people, after centuries of admixing, moved eastwards, established Abashevo-Sintashta cultures, and then moved to central asia establishing the Andronovo Culture (2000–900 BC)

So, Andronovo people who we believe were Proto-Indo-Iranians, were not pure Yamna tribe. Phenotypically they differed a bit, because they were light haired and light eyed at about 60% range, comparable to modern English or Poles. Many of them were either Cro-Magnoid types or so called Iranian Nordoids (more mesoprosopic than European Nordics), other being simply Corded Nordics or even Pontid or North Pontid types with stronger EEF influence. They expanded south, southeast and east, becoming ancestors of 1) Persians, 2) Aryans in India 3) Tarim basin mummies we found.

Some Soviet-time Andronovo reconstructions. Not coloured, but they appear to be more "White" looking than Yamnaya based alone on skull and facial features:
https://i.imgur.com/kK0vfPN.jpg
https://i1.wp.com/thestrangecontinent.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/b_981_1.jpg?ssl=1
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Egor-Kitov/publication/304847706/figure/fig3/AS:594370113851392@1518720286768/A-skull-and-sculptural-forensic-facial-reconstruction-from-burial-of-Kizilskiy-I-cemetery.png

[Norb]

ask aherne

[Arūnas]

like my current avatar

[Immanenz]

Afghans

https://i.ibb.co/VYY1bQr/Screenshot-20210818-171959-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/9HHDBVz)


very Proto- Nordic looking (the other light types do not though- however he looks more IndoEuropean than the majority European Nordic examples posted on daily basis). Interestingly the guy next to him could have a Yamnaya look, preserved "CHG" look (since others went into some extreme brachy forms)

[Avicenna]

very Proto- Nordic looking (the other light types do not though- however he looks more IndoEuropean than the majority European Nordic examples posted on daily basis). Interestingly the guy next to him could have a Yamnaya look, preserved "CHG" look (since others went into some extreme brachy forms)

He could pass here in England without a shadow of a doubt

[Avicenna]

very Proto- Nordic looking (the other light types do not though- however he looks more IndoEuropean than the majority European Nordic examples posted on daily basis). Interestingly the guy next to him could have a Yamnaya look, preserved "CHG" look (since others went into some extreme brachy forms)

What about the guy in the back ?

https://i.ibb.co/866mzrp/Screenshot-20210818-171728-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/bzz6HsZ)

[Immanenz]

What about the guy in the back ?

https://i.ibb.co/866mzrp/Screenshot-20210818-171728-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/bzz6HsZ)

certainly Nordoid looking, although he is more of the modern graciler kinds (Iron Age type)- looks like a half Brit/ half Russian also kinda Centraleuro

[Avicenna]

certainly Nordoid looking, although he is more of the modern graciler kinds (Iron Age type)- looks like a half Brit/ half Russian also kinda Centraleuro

I think he looks equally northwest euro and northeast euro, spot on

[Yamnaya]

Like me

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?350967-Classify-me-3-4-russian-1-4-bashkir-Would-i-pass-as-native-in-your-country-scale-from-1-to-10

[Hialt]

Afganistan female athlete, Shabnam Mobarez.

https://i.ibb.co/Sr9Cbks/shabnam-mobarez.jpg

[Impaler]

I guess like these Nuristani and Kalash people:

https://i.ibb.co/S3K5NtK/2186706013-68d7e1058d.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)
https://i.ibb.co/bFpWBrG/7750245832e824a26bb23427aef6ab59.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)
https://i.ibb.co/BBYxpJq/images-1-1.jpg (https://ibb.co/DQjyJF5)
https://i.ibb.co/LRshpQW/v58-1348680.jpg (https://ibb.co/9gd3YwL)

[Token]

very Proto- Nordic looking (the other light types do not though- however he looks more IndoEuropean than the majority European Nordic examples posted on daily basis). Interestingly the guy next to him could have a Yamnaya look, preserved "CHG" look (since others went into some extreme brachy forms)
Seems rather low-headed though, like you would expect from an central asiatic Nordic type.

[Östsvensk]

If you by Aryan mean Yamnaya, they were tall, dark-haired and dark-eyed.


WHG ancestry linked to:
- light eyes
- brown hair
- decreased height, hip circumference, cholesterol, probability of dark eyes
- increased BMI, caffeine consumption, creatine production

EEF ancestry linked to:
- light eyes
- blond hair
- decreased waist/hip ratio, heart rate, probability of black hair

Steppe EMBA (Yamnaya) ancestry linked to:
- dark eyes
- dark hair
- strong build
- increased height, waist and hip circumference, cholesterol
- decreased caffeine consumption, heart rate

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?350198-New-study-on-Estonians

The Finnish actor Lauri Tilkanen is, I think, a good reconstruction of what they might have looked like, albeit he's a bit on the lighter spectrum:

https://actorsinscandinavia.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/lauri_tilkanen_2500x_sRGB_01-525x684.jpg
https://new.static.tv.nu/19453798?forceFit=0&height=400&quality=50&width=400

[Immanenz]

Seems rather low-headed though, like you would expect from an central asiatic Nordic type.

well, yes the Eastern Corded

since you talk about Central Asia
https://www.ucentralasia.org/Content/downloads/CHHU-RP3-Eng.pdf






https://new.static.tv.nu/19453798?forceFit=0&height=400&quality=50&width=400

he looks extremly Med influenced :picard1: (facially not pigmentation, Paleo Euro women would have maybe wished they looked like half italians or softer Henry Cavills) , try maybe someone like Gaahl

Corded Nordic next to a Hallstatt Nordic ;)
https://www.metal-hammer.de/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/17/13/dsc_0113_gaahl_robin_2019_gsauermann.jpg

[Ayetooey]

https://i.insider.com/60c91e146d855e00181583f4?width=1000&format=jpeg&auto=webp

[Token]

https://i.imgur.com/CnTKVlH.jpg
Let's stop spreading this ridiculous reconstruction that doesn't even resemble a human being, this is a professional reconstruction of the same skull by Nechvaloda:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/736616445152329838/866186815756173312/A-skull-and-graphic-forensic-facial-reconstruction-from-burial-2-kurgan-6.png?width=375&height=629

[Östsvensk]

he looks extremly Med influenced :picard1: , try maybe someone like Gaahl

Corded Nordic next to a Hallstatt Nordic ;)
https://www.metal-hammer.de/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/17/13/dsc_0113_gaahl_robin_2019_gsauermann.jpg

Yamnaya did not look like modern-day Nordics, except for their tall height, but their descendants later merged with the other groups that carried the genes for light hair and eyes (see Mathieson et al 2015 (http://archhades.blogspot.com/2015/10/myth-of-light-pigmented-nordic-looking.html) f.e).

[Uranous]

The concept of Aryan race is an ethno-linguistic and non-racial concept, which encompassed several ethnic groups with different racial connections, it could range from Nordic populations to populations of Armenoid types.

http://image.noelshack.com/minis/2021/34/1/1629728502-haak-et-al-2015-figure-3-admixture-proportions-in-modern-dna-with-linguistic-and-historical-origins-added.png (http://www.noelshack.com/2021-34-1-1629728502-haak-et-al-2015-figure-3-admixture-proportions-in-modern-dna-with-linguistic-and-historical-origins-added.png)

http://image.noelshack.com/minis/2021/34/1/1629728585-genetic-structure-of-ancient-europe-a-principal-component-analysis-ancient-data-from.png (http://www.noelshack.com/2021-34-1-1629728585-genetic-structure-of-ancient-europe-a-principal-component-analysis-ancient-data-from.png)

[Immanenz]

Yamnaya did not look like modern-day Nordics, except for their tall height, but their descendants later merged with the other groups that carried the genes for light hair and eyes (see Mathieson et al 2015 (http://archhades.blogspot.com/2015/10/myth-of-light-pigmented-nordic-looking.html) f.e).

i m not talking about pigmantation but facial traits, Gaahl and the Finn actor have both about the same pigmentation but while the Finn is between a Danubian and a smaller Long Barrow type (low headed Med) with Nordic input, Gaahl is mostly Corded (high headed, leptoprospic type etc.)

https://pro2-bar-s3-cdn-cf6.myportfolio.com/0424fa0e-5765-4697-a9c3-b417eb6e039b/026b60a0-fa96-47ab-8ca8-9cf24ca3f6cf_rw_1200.jpg?h=0adb48b8fd1322c7a204541 ed1560035

[Komintasavalta]

If Aryan means Proto-Indo-Aryan or Sintashta, then Aryans probably looked woggier than PIEs. On G25, the closest modern populations for the Yamnaya and Corded Ware populations included below are Finno-Permic, but the closest modern populations for RUS_Sintashta_MLBA are North Germanic:


$ printf %s\\n aas\ 1F2rKEVtu8nWSm7qFhxPU6UESQNsmA-sl mas\ 1wZr-UOve0KUKo_Qbgeo27m-CQncZWb8y|while read l m;do curl "https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=$m" -Lso $l;done
$ dist()(awk -F, 'NR==FNR{for(i=2;i<=NF;i++)a[i]=$i;next}$1{s=0;for(i=2;i<=NF;i++)s+=($i-a[i])^2;print s^.5,$1}' "$2" "$1"|sort -n|awk '{printf"%."x"f %s\n",$1,$2}' "x=${3-3}"|sed s,^0,,)
$ for x in Yamnaya_{RUS_Samara,UKR} Corded_Ware_{DEU,POL,Baltic} RUS_Sintashta_MLBA;do dist mas <(grep ^$x, aas)|head -n6|paste -sd' ' -|sed "s/^/$x: /";done
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara: .130 Ingrian .130 Mordovian .131 Russian_Kostroma .131 Finnish_East .132 Tajik_Rushan .132 Darginian
Yamnaya_UKR: .123 Mordovian .124 Russian_Kostroma .125 Ingrian .125 Finnish_East .125 Karelian .125 Finnish
Corded_Ware_DEU: .073 Finnish .076 Swedish .076 Icelandic .076 Ingrian .077 Norwegian .079 Danish
Corded_Ware_POL: .064 Finnish .064 Swedish .065 Ingrian .067 Icelandic .067 Norwegian .068 Danish
Corded_Ware_Baltic: .046 Ingrian .047 Finnish .048 Russian_Tver .049 Estonian .052 Russian_Kostroma .052 Russian_Kursk
RUS_Sintashta_MLBA: .060 Norwegian .060 Swedish .060 Icelandic .062 Danish .062 Shetlandic .063 Irish

[Token]

Yamnaya did not look like modern-day Nordics, except for their tall height, but their descendants later merged with the other groups that carried the genes for light hair and eyes (see Mathieson et al 2015 (http://archhades.blogspot.com/2015/10/myth-of-light-pigmented-nordic-looking.html) f.e).

Yamnaya is not ancestral to Corded Ware, the Y-haplogroups are different so you can't derive one from the other (Yamnaya almost homogeneously R1b-Z2103, CWC almost homogeneously R1b-L51 and R1a). All other steppe populations (Andronovo, Sintashta and Srubnaya) besides Yamnaya were predominantly light-pigmented, and all pre-CWC (with the exception of some fringe EHG-admixed hunter-gatherers) populations of Europe were dark-pigmented. Blond hair in ancient samples from Eurasia is always found in association with ANE ancestry, and there was no widespread ANE ancestry in Europe before IE expansions.

The derived allele of the KITLG SNP rs12821256 that is associated with – and likely causal for – blond hair in Europeans is present in one hunter-gatherer from each of Samara, Motala and Ukraine (I0124, I0014 and I1763), as well as several later individuals with Steppe ancestry. Since the allele is found in populations with EHG but not WHG ancestry, it suggests that its origin is in the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) population. Consistent with this, we observe that earliest known individual with the derived allele is the ANE individual AfontovaGora 3, which is directly dated to 16130-15749 cal BCE (14710±60 BP, MAMS-27186: a previously unpublished date that we newly report here).
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616

The conclusion is extremely obvious (that blond hair spread with Indo-Europeans), but people (who are almost always southerners who speak an Indo-European language, like the Italian "Arch Hades" in your link) avoid it out of pure fear of having to accept that their language was originally spoken by a blond people. Fortunately facts don't care about feelings.

[Token]

i m not talking about pigmantation but facial traits, Gaahl and the Finn actor have both about the same pigmentation but while the Finn is between a Danubian and a smaller Long Barrow type (low headed Med) with Nordic input, Gaahl is mostly Corded (high headed, leptoprospic type etc.)

https://pro2-bar-s3-cdn-cf6.myportfolio.com/0424fa0e-5765-4697-a9c3-b417eb6e039b/026b60a0-fa96-47ab-8ca8-9cf24ca3f6cf_rw_1200.jpg?h=0adb48b8fd1322c7a204541 ed1560035
Why are you complicating so much? Just call him Nordic dude, Nordics don't bite. The Long Barrow type is only low-headed in comparison to Corded and Irano-Afghan, it is higher-headed than any other Mediterranean type.

[Immanenz]

Why are you complicating so much? Just call him Nordic dude, Nordics don't bite. The Long Barrow type is only low-headed in comparison to Corded and Irano-Afghan, it is higher-headed than any other Mediterranean type.

simply because the question is pretty precise, the question was not- what is the variety of Nordic types. the Finn is a Nordic-Med mix type, if he would be from anywhere else but a Northeuroepan country everybody would say that.

[JamesBond007]

If Aryan means Proto-Indo-Aryan or Sintashta, then Aryans probably looked woggier than PIEs. On G25, the closest modern populations for the Yamnaya and Corded Ware populations included below are Finno-Permic, but the closest modern populations for RUS_Sintashta_MLBA are North Germanic:



Aryan means wise king not dumb blonde :



https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fs3.amazonaws.com%2Fclassconnectio n%2F558%2Fflashcards%2F973558%2Fpng%2Fscreen_shot_ 2015-04-18_at_10634_pm-14CCD7F37C473678093.png&f=1&nofb=1


https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.museoarcheologiconapoli.it%2Fw p-content%2Fuploads%2F2016%2F08%2F8977-mosaici-museo-napoli-810x1024.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

https://content.api.news/v3/images/bin/6cff5f3789a71a24b1e44c601e8eb968


https://i.postimg.cc/dDMC0BTz/jesus.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/rAW9OYr11ydzC6Gj2wUSDOdLdksgORvuVq5YYje6WFtOB971Pn xswO-XGNtu1tmQQw89oUcsIY_kGUas70jZRoVf_iriBnS7WbqY49t_8 g


https://cdn.britannica.com/47/182247-050-644E75E2/Richard-III-panel-artist.jpg

https://cdn.britannica.com/32/193232-050-649F71C2/Elizabeth-I.jpg

[Token]

simply because the question is pretty precise, the question was not- what is the variety of Nordic types. the Finn is a Nordic-Med mix type, if he would be from anywhere else but a Northeuroepan country everybody would say that.

List what are his non-Nordic traits.

[Harkonnen]

i m not talking about pigmantation but facial traits, Gaahl and the Finn actor have both about the same pigmentation but while the Finn is between a Danubian and a smaller Long Barrow type (low headed Med) with Nordic input, Gaahl is mostly Corded (high headed, leptoprospic type etc.)

https://pro2-bar-s3-cdn-cf6.myportfolio.com/0424fa0e-5765-4697-a9c3-b417eb6e039b/026b60a0-fa96-47ab-8ca8-9cf24ca3f6cf_rw_1200.jpg?h=0adb48b8fd1322c7a204541 ed1560035

Cordeds had average head breadth of 133mm. That is narrover than most modern meds. Gaahls head looks massive to the dude he is standing next. There is no way Gaahl can be Corded. I really don't understand how hard it is interpret the data.

[HectorOfTroy]

Lol. majority of them did not have blonde hair or blue eyes. And they had robust features, just look at the skulls. not leptoprosopic nordoid faces. read the OP and dont just post, don't base what you think they looked like off of hitler's brain dead fantasty theories

[Hamilcar]

Yamnaya is not ancestral to Corded Ware, the Y-haplogroups are different so you can't derive one from the other (Yamnaya almost homogeneously R1b-Z2103, CWC almost homogeneously R1b-L51 and R1a). All other steppe populations (Andronovo, Sintashta and Srubnaya) besides Yamnaya were predominantly light-pigmented, and all pre-CWC (with the exception of some fringe EHG-admixed hunter-gatherers) populations of Europe were dark-pigmented. Blond hair in ancient samples from Eurasia is always found in association with ANE ancestry, and there was no widespread ANE ancestry in Europe before IE expansions.

The derived allele of the KITLG SNP rs12821256 that is associated with – and likely causal for – blond hair in Europeans is present in one hunter-gatherer from each of Samara, Motala and Ukraine (I0124, I0014 and I1763), as well as several later individuals with Steppe ancestry. Since the allele is found in populations with EHG but not WHG ancestry, it suggests that its origin is in the Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) population. Consistent with this, we observe that earliest known individual with the derived allele is the ANE individual AfontovaGora 3, which is directly dated to 16130-15749 cal BCE (14710±60 BP, MAMS-27186: a previously unpublished date that we newly report here).
http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616

The conclusion is extremely obvious (that blond hair spread with Indo-Europeans), but people (who are almost always southerners who speak an Indo-European language, like the Italian "Arch Hades" in your link) avoid it out of pure fear of having to accept that their language was originally spoken by a blond people. Fortunately facts don't care about feelings.

Besides some melanesian communities, Do blond hair necessarily equates steppe/IE ancestry ?

[Token]

Besides some melanesian communities, Do blond hair necessarily equates steppe/IE ancestry ?

Not always, in Siberia there were populations with ANE ancestry with no relation to Indo-Europeans. But the mutation that causes it is the same one with ANE origin in all parts of mainland Eurasia, and in parts where there were no pre-IE peoples with ANE ancestry (pretty much everywhere south of central Asia) it is always IE-related. It is a different and unrelated mutation that causes it in Melanesians.

[Komintasavalta]

all pre-CWC (with the exception of some fringe EHG-admixed hunter-gatherers) populations of Europe were dark-pigmented. Blond hair in ancient samples from Eurasia is always found in association with ANE ancestry, and there was no widespread ANE ancestry in Europe before IE expansions.

The two largest countries of Europe are Russia and Ukraine, and ANE was widespread in both of them before the IE expansion.

Below is a plot of ancient populations in G25 which can be modeled as a combination of Villabruna and Karelia_HG with a distance of .15 or below. Out of the populations with a lower distance than Sintashta, 11 out of 34 have at least 50% EHG.

https://i.ibb.co/ZxByDNJ/whg-vs-ehg.png

In the plot above, most populations whose samples are from latitude 53 or above have at least 40% EHG. RUS_Veretye_Meso (PES001) is from Arkhangelsk Oblast at latitude 61. RUS_Volga-Kama_N (MUR009) is from Tatarstan at latitude 55. Sidelkino_HG is from the border of Tatarstan and Samara Oblast at latitude 55, and Samara_HG is at latitude 54. So it's really only at the central and southern latitudes of Europe where ANE was not widespread.

The plot above is missing samples from the Comb Ceramic Culture, but the Estonian CCC samples from Saag et al. 2017 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982217307248) are about 3/4 EHG.

[Uranous]

Lol. majority of them did not have blonde hair or blue eyes. And they had robust features, just look at the skulls. not leptoprosopic nordoid faces. read the OP and dont just post, don't base what you think they looked like off of hitler's brain dead fantasty theories



Modern europoids are the result of a multi-millennial interbreeding between 3 great races, Cromagnons (I1), Armenoides (J) and Ancient Eurasian North (R1a and R1B), which will give a great phenotypic diversity (Alpine, Dinaric, Mediterranean, Nordic ... etc) I noticed that here some people do not accept this so fantasies about theories to avoid seeing reality in the face.

[Token]

The two largest countries of Europe are Russia and Ukraine, and ANE was widespread in both of them before the IE expansion.

Below is a plot of ancient populations in G25 which can be modeled as a combination of Villabruna and Karelia_HG with a distance of .15 or below. Out of the populations with a lower distance than Sintashta, 11 out of 34 have at least 50% EHG.

In the plot above, most populations whose samples are from latitude 53 or above have at least 40% EHG. RUS_Veretye_Meso (PES001) is from Arkhangelsk Oblast at latitude 61. RUS_Volga-Kama_N (MUR009) is from Tatarstan at latitude 55. Sidelkino_HG is from the border of Tatarstan and Samara Oblast at latitude 55, and Samara_HG is at latitude 54. So it's really only at the central and southern latitudes of Europe where ANE was not widespread.

The plot above is missing samples from the Comb Ceramic Culture, but the Estonian CCC samples from Saag et al. 2017 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982217307248) are about 3/4 EHG.

Ukrainians and Balts do not require any EHG besides what is included in their steppe ancestry (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/07/ancient-ancestry-proportions-in-present.html), so whatever forager populations with significant EHG admixture that lived there were completely (or almost completely) wiped out later on. The only Europeans who do need additional EHG ancestry are Russian Slavs (who have Uralic ancestry) and Uralics. You can check this with qpAdm.

Needless to say that G25 wields inaccurate results for those Iberian hunter-gatherers. They harbor significant GoyetQ-like ancestry shared with ANE, and thus the two-way model interprets it wrongly as ANE admixture in Iberian HG. Iron Gates HG do have some ANE (and also Anatolian) admixture, but there are no modern descendants of this population to any significant measure.

[Sandis]

Attempts to connect cultures with ethnolinguistic groups are usually misleading.
For example, Yamnaya is not exclusively proto-IE.

[Immanenz]

Cordeds had average head breadth of 133mm. That is narrover than most modern meds. Gaahls head looks massive to the dude he is standing next. There is no way Gaahl can be Corded. I really don't understand how hard it is interpret the data.

I dont think his head is more massive, Gaahl only lacks the extreme head length of Corded types which is rare anyway especially combing with all listed traits (but than again neither are UP types as long headed as they were once etc.) The skulls were very narrow and long but they had powerful features, so the guy next to him cant be Corded because this is Coon´s describtion:

Corded: Tall stature, build linear but muscular, perhaps heavier than the Megalithic; extremely long-headed, 194 mm. mean. Vault of great height, means over 140 mm., exceeding breadth; browridges and muscular markings medium to strong; face very long, and of slight to moderate breadth; mandible deep and chin marked, but narrow through the gonial angles. Nose leptorrhine, often prominent. This type, in western and northern Europe, approaches in some respects the Upper Palaeolithic type with which it mixed.


List what are his non-Nordic traits.

Nordic is theoretically a Med subtype, so already Corded is (just) a specific Med variant. Östsvensk posted him because he does not look like a standard Nordic to begin with, he just chose the wrong "darker" type in my book. The vast majority Nordic-Med mixture end up being metrically sm like Iron Age Nordic in a broader sense which is just a logical conclusion.

[Token]

I dont think his head is more massive, Gaahl only lacks the extreme head length of Corded types which is rare anyway especially combing with all listed traits (but than again neither are UP types as long headed as they were once etc.) The skulls were very narrow and long but they had powerful features, so the guy next to him cant be Corded because this is Coon´s describtion:

Corded: Tall stature, build linear but muscular, perhaps heavier than the Megalithic; extremely long-headed, 194 mm. mean. Vault of great height, means over 140 mm., exceeding breadth; browridges and muscular markings medium to strong; face very long, and of slight to moderate breadth; mandible deep and chin marked, but narrow through the gonial angles. Nose leptorrhine, often prominent. This type, in western and northern Europe, approaches in some respects the Upper Palaeolithic type with which it mixed.

Gaahl's head is broader than that of the guy by his side. If your classification was correct it should be the opposite, because the Nordic head is actually broader than the Corded's. The Corded type has a peculiar combination of great head length and height, but laterally very narrow at the same time. It is not so simple as "robust Nordic = Corded".


Nordic is theoretically a Med subtype, so already Corded is (just) a specific Med variant. Östsvensk posted him because he does not look like a standard Nordic to begin with, he just chose the wrong "darker" type in my book. The vast majority Nordic-Med mixture end up being metrically sm like Iron Age Nordic in a broader sense which is just a logical conclusion.
You couldn't list the non-Nordic traits.

[Harkonnen]

I dont think his head is more massive, Gaahl only lacks the extreme head length of Corded types which is rare anyway especially combing with all listed traits (but than again neither are UP types as long headed as they were once etc.) The skulls were very narrow and long but they had powerful features, so the guy next to him cant be Corded because this is Coon´s describtion:

Corded: Tall stature, build linear but muscular, perhaps heavier than the Megalithic; extremely long-headed, 194 mm. mean. Vault of great height, means over 140 mm., exceeding breadth; browridges and muscular markings medium to strong; face very long, and of slight to moderate breadth; mandible deep and chin marked, but narrow through the gonial angles. Nose leptorrhine, often prominent. This type, in western and northern Europe, approaches in some respects the Upper Palaeolithic type with which it mixed.



Nordic is theoretically a Med subtype, so already Corded is (just) a specific Med variant. Östsvensk posted him because he does not look like a standard Nordic to begin with, he just chose the wrong "darker" type in my book. The vast majority Nordic-Med mixture end up being metrically sm like Iron Age Nordic in a broader sense which is just a logical conclusion.

How is the Corded head length extreme when it is pretty much same as was average in Sweden 100years ago: The mean head length of Swedish recruits is 193.8 mm., and the breadth 152.3 mm., yielding a cephalic index of 77.7. The longest heads, with regional means running up to 195 mm., are found in the west, over against Norway, and the shortest in the north. The lowest cephalic index mean is 76.7, and the highest, concentrated in the north, are all below 80. The three principal breadth diameters of the face, minimum frontal, bizygomatic, and bigonial, have national means of 104.6 mm., 136.0 mm., and 103.4 mm.,

So this means that average Swede has about same head length as Cordeds BUT almost 2cm broader skull, which is really massive difference when you think about it. I just don't understand how anyone can twist those numbers to mean Cordeds had massive or robust skulls -- they didn't. Corded had impressive skull height, that I give, but that about it. I think it is quite likely they indeed looked chiselled. Even modern Med types look often very chiselled despite not being metrically large or robust.

[Veslan]

Let's stop spreading this ridiculous reconstruction that doesn't even resemble a human being, this is a professional reconstruction of the same skull by Nechvaloda:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/736616445152329838/866186815756173312/A-skull-and-graphic-forensic-facial-reconstruction-from-burial-2-kurgan-6.png?width=375&height=629

This reconstuction also shows him to have Mongoloid influence, so my point stands. It is actually noticeable in cheek bones and prognathism alone btw.


If you by Aryan mean Yamnaya, they were tall, dark-haired and dark-eyed.


WHG ancestry linked to:
- light eyes
- brown hair
- decreased height, hip circumference, cholesterol, probability of dark eyes
- increased BMI, caffeine consumption, creatine production

EEF ancestry linked to:
- light eyes
- blond hair
- decreased waist/hip ratio, heart rate, probability of black hair

Steppe EMBA (Yamnaya) ancestry linked to:
- dark eyes
- dark hair
- strong build
- increased height, waist and hip circumference, cholesterol
- decreased caffeine consumption, heart rate

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?350198-New-study-on-Estonians

The Finnish actor Lauri Tilkanen is, I think, a good reconstruction of what they might have looked like, albeit he's a bit on the lighter spectrum:

https://actorsinscandinavia.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/lauri_tilkanen_2500x_sRGB_01-525x684.jpg
https://new.static.tv.nu/19453798?forceFit=0&height=400&quality=50&width=400

EEF part is very misleading because lighter pigmentation was only true for Northernmost farmers with more HG admixture, like the Funnelbeakers. The ones in Southern Europe stayed swarthy and Mediterranean. Man you posted looks more like late CWC man with strong farmer influence, I don't think he would pass in the steppe.

[Immanenz]

Gaahl's head is broader than that of the guy by his side. If your classification was correct it should be the opposite, because the Nordic head is actually broader than the Corded's. The Corded type has a peculiar combination of great head length and height, but laterally very narrow at the same time. It is not so simple as "robust Nordic = Corded".

Well, i m ok with that that he is Troender (or a robust Nordic) metrically, while his "Cm" feauters being only slightly broader and shorter headed than Corded types.
I wanted to use East Nordic, but i did not because some are offended using it on westeners- i know he lacks the extreme head length of Corded.





You couldn't list the non-Nordic traits.

I could not list a non Med trait either. And there is not much differences in cranial characteristics between modern Atlanto Meds and Hallstatt Nordids etc. Coon also said an Arab could be a Nordic if he would be light- there is not much difference in long headed, narrow nosed types besides eye area etc. once arhaic traits are gone.

FIG. 1 (2 views). A youthful Yemeni from the desert-border tribe of Hadha. Facially he is a perfect example of a refined Mediterranean type; his head length is a little short, his stature a little tall, for the mean. He is a brunet-white in unexposed skin color, brunet in hair and eye color; narrower-faced than any of the Upper Palaeolithic sur- vivors, reduced or unreduced, whom we have seen in the preceding plates. His fore- head and jaw are both consistently narrow. It is a characteristic of the Mediterranean race, as of this individual, that the upper face height and nose height are great, no mat- ter how small the other dimensions. Imagine this individual pink-skinned, blue-eyed, and blond-haired, and you will have a close approximation to a Nordic. There is no essential difference between the two races other than pigmentation. Both, however, are separated by a wide racial gap from the Upper Palaeolithic group.

http://www.humanbiologicaldiversity.com/Photos/Coon%20Plate%2016.jpg

[Östsvensk]

EEF part is very misleading because lighter pigmentation was only true for Northernmost farmers with more HG admixture, like the Funnelbeakers. The ones in Southern Europe stayed swarthy and Mediterranean. Man you posted looks more like late CWC man with strong farmer influence, I don't think he would pass in the steppe.

What do you think is a better example? Gaahl, like Immanenz?

[Östsvensk]

Coon also said an Arab could be a Nordic if he would be light- there is not much difference in long headed, narrow nosed types besides eye area etc. once arhaic traits are gone.

FIG. 1 (2 views). A youthful Yemeni from the desert-border tribe of Hadha. Facially he is a perfect example of a refined Mediterranean type; his head length is a little short, his stature a little tall, for the mean. He is a brunet-white in unexposed skin color, brunet in hair and eye color; narrower-faced than any of the Upper Palaeolithic sur- vivors, reduced or unreduced, whom we have seen in the preceding plates. His fore- head and jaw are both consistently narrow. It is a characteristic of the Mediterranean race, as of this individual, that the upper face height and nose height are great, no mat- ter how small the other dimensions. Imagine this individual pink-skinned, blue-eyed, and blond-haired, and you will have a close approximation to a Nordic. There is no essential difference between the two races other than pigmentation. Both, however, are separated by a wide racial gap from the Upper Palaeolithic group.

http://www.humanbiologicaldiversity.com/Photos/Coon%20Plate%2016.jpg

Lol, Arab and MENA girls dying their hair blonde in Sweden is a thing. Nordic is not what I would call it. :biggrin:

[smd555]

I do not think that light-pigmented individuals among the Pashtuns and other Iranian-speaking peoples are necessarily the contribution of the ancient Aryans. It is enough to google photos of non-Indo-European Burusho - among them there are also one light-pigmented, and in their facial features they are very similar to Afghans and Tajiks.

[Veslan]

What do you think is a better example? Gaahl, like Immanenz?

Pretty much every Pontid ever would fit better in Yamna culture (as more Med-leaning individual) than the Finn you posted.

[Östsvensk]

Pretty much every Pontid ever would fit better in Yamna culture (as more Med-leaning individual) than the Finn you posted.

IMHO, he doesn't look like a typical Finn, but he has some features in common with how Iranians (albeit he is lighter) can look.

[Immanenz]

Pretty much every Pontid ever would fit better in Yamna culture (as more Med-leaning individual) than the Finn you posted.

well, the question what is a Pontid, its pretty much used on every Slav and Greek Med type unconnected to each other (neither in looks or metrically). Token posted that high headed Kurgan reconstruction and its pretty close to Pontid since it is very high headed and soft in gonial angles.

[Token]

I could not list a non Med trait either. And there is not much differences in cranial characteristics between modern Atlanto Meds and Hallstatt Nordids etc. Coon also said an Arab could be a Nordic if he would be light- there is not much difference in long headed, narrow nosed types besides eye area etc. once arhaic traits are gone.

FIG. 1 (2 views). A youthful Yemeni from the desert-border tribe of Hadha. Facially he is a perfect example of a refined Mediterranean type; his head length is a little short, his stature a little tall, for the mean. He is a brunet-white in unexposed skin color, brunet in hair and eye color; narrower-faced than any of the Upper Palaeolithic sur- vivors, reduced or unreduced, whom we have seen in the preceding plates. His fore- head and jaw are both consistently narrow. It is a characteristic of the Mediterranean race, as of this individual, that the upper face height and nose height are great, no mat- ter how small the other dimensions. Imagine this individual pink-skinned, blue-eyed, and blond-haired, and you will have a close approximation to a Nordic. There is no essential difference between the two races other than pigmentation. Both, however, are separated by a wide racial gap from the Upper Palaeolithic group.

http://www.humanbiologicaldiversity.com/Photos/Coon%20Plate%2016.jpg

That's true, and that's why it makes zero sense to classify him as Nordic-Med. It makes as much sense as classifying someone as Borreby-Brunn.

[Avicenna]

Just came across this afghan guy on sky news

https://i.ibb.co/qxvW4Gb/Screenshot-20210823-215459-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/7bqRTc7)
https://i.ibb.co/R3Tj4DF/Screenshot-20210823-215443-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/rx2dfwj)
instagram image url download (https://500pxdownload.com/)

[Avicenna]

I do not think that light-pigmented individuals among the Pashtuns and other Iranian-speaking peoples are necessarily the contribution of the ancient Aryans. It is enough to google photos of non-Indo-European Burusho - among them there are also one light-pigmented, and in their facial features they are very similar to Afghans and Tajiks.

But the afghans are directly associated with Scythian type people , this is not subjective opinion but a fact . I'm not knowledgeable on burushos but Google images aren't necessarily accurate for showing typical phenotypes, light or dark . Nonetheless it doesn't negate the proposed idea that people living in south central Asia ( burushos included ) descend from steppe like folks .

"Although their origins are unknown, it is likely that the Burusho people "were indigenous to northwestern South Asia (current day Pakistan) and were pushed into their present homeland by the movements of the Indo-Aryans who migrated to the subcontinent in 1800 B.C.[10] "

The Indo Aryans were obviously the waves of Indo european steppe folks who invaded the Indian sub continent .

[Immanenz]

Let's stop spreading this ridiculous reconstruction that doesn't even resemble a human being, this is a professional reconstruction of the same skull by Nechvaloda:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/736616445152329838/866186815756173312/A-skull-and-graphic-forensic-facial-reconstruction-from-burial-2-kurgan-6.png?width=375&height=629

Looks like a slightly softer version of Jason Statham, so you guys with bullseyes (Harkonnen and you) is Jason too broad headed for Corded as well?

https://www.bravo.de/assets/styles/image_style_gallery_image/public/field/image/jason_statham_rosie.jpg?itok=cO6RxMbk
https://www.ok-magazin.de/sites/default/files/styles/mobile_multiteaser/public/media/teaser/2017/08/21/rosie-huntington-whiteley-jason-statham-schwanger.jpg
https://image.gala.de/20884904/t/ag/v18/w960/r0/-/rosie-hw-jason-statham-ge--11155369-.jpg

next to his half Polish wife he looks narrow headed + high headed (although less than the reconstruction for sure) and long headed

here another Corded Ware skull
https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S2352409X18306916-gr5.jpg

btw a more shorter faced Corded ware but strongly dolicho, not all of them where extremly horsy faced (Veslan posted it once):
https://imgur.com/LgI9DEp

[HectorOfTroy]

Looks like a slightly softer version of Jason Statham, so you guys with bullseyes (Harkonnen and you) is Jason too broad headed for Corded as well?

https://www.bravo.de/assets/styles/image_style_gallery_image/public/field/image/jason_statham_rosie.jpg?itok=cO6RxMbk
https://www.ok-magazin.de/sites/default/files/styles/mobile_multiteaser/public/media/teaser/2017/08/21/rosie-huntington-whiteley-jason-statham-schwanger.jpg
https://image.gala.de/20884904/t/ag/v18/w960/r0/-/rosie-hw-jason-statham-ge--11155369-.jpg

next to his half Polish wife he looks narrow headed + high headed (although less than the reconstruction for sure) and long headed

here another Corded Ware skull
https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S2352409X18306916-gr5.jpg

btw a more shorter faced Corded ware but strongly dolicho, not all of them where extremly horsy faced (Veslan posted it once):
https://imgur.com/LgI9DEp

Lol that doesn't look like Statham. Also that reconstruction is bad imo, why is there so much gap between the infra orbital rim and the eyeball. The individual has larger eyes most likley, and the infraorbital rim/paranasal area is too flat on that 3d model compared the skull.
you guys think they looked like a similar pheno to that turkish actress in the OP? she's got asiatic blood and her father has blue eyes, so probably an R1 descendant. Anatolia is close to the Indo-Aryan homeland anyway, and ancient anatolians likley had contact with Aryans or were possibly pre-aryans themselves, since Hittites spoke an indo european language

[smd555]

But the afghans are directly associated with Scythian type people , this is not subjective opinion but a fact . I'm not knowledgeable on burushos but Google images aren't necessarily accurate for showing typical phenotypes, light or dark . Nonetheless it doesn't negate the proposed idea that people living in south central Asia ( burushos included ) descend from steppe like folks .

"Although their origins are unknown, it is likely that the Burusho people "were indigenous to northwestern South Asia (current day Pakistan) and were pushed into their present homeland by the movements of the Indo-Aryans who migrated to the subcontinent in 1800 B.C.[10] "

The Indo Aryans were obviously the waves of Indo european steppe folks who invaded the Indian sub continent .

You can compare autosomal samples of modern Pashtuns and Burusho with ancient Andronovo, Sintashta or Yamnaja and see that the first two are much more closer to each other than to ancient samples. Pashtuns are pure east mediterraneans, while the above populations of Bronze age were the mix of east meds with European Hunters-Gatherers.

[Immanenz]

you guys think they looked like a similar pheno to that turkish actress in the OP? she's got asiatic blood and her father has blue eyes, so probably an R1 descendant. Anatolia is close to the Indo-Aryan homeland anyway, and ancient anatolians likley had contact with Aryans or were possibly pre-aryans themselves, since Hittites spoke an indo european language

Lol, not really either- a lot of populations had light eyes. She is much closer to a Baltic mixture type although less broad headed ( the Easteuro guys who acc to you cant be "Aryans" ironically anyway).

I dont think eye area and other soft parts etc. can be 100 % precisly reconstructed, i rather asked out of craniometrical reasons

But i do agree on several points you said before, if they were sm like 50 % EHG they cant have only supposed "Mediterranean" Irano Afgan facial features

[Token]

I do not think that light-pigmented individuals among the Pashtuns and other Iranian-speaking peoples are necessarily the contribution of the ancient Aryans. It is enough to google photos of non-Indo-European Burusho - among them there are also one light-pigmented, and in their facial features they are very similar to Afghans and Tajiks.

The Burusho have Indo-European ancestry and the most frequent Y-haplogroup among them is R1a



Target: Burusho
Distance: 2.3323% / 0.02332297
52.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
23.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
12.8 TKM_Gonur1_BA
12.0 MNG_East_N



Lol, not really either- a lot of populations had light eyes. She is much closer to a Baltic mixture type although less broad headed ( the Easteuro guys who acc to you cant be "Aryans" ironically anyway).

I dont think eye area and other soft parts etc. can be 100 % precisly reconstructed, i rather asked out of craniometrical reasons

But i do agree on several points you said before, if they were sm like 50 % EHG they cant have only supposed "Mediterranean" Irano Afgan facial features

:picard2:

Here is Peschanitsa-1, the oldest EHG next to Sidelkino.

A Mesolithic man from Peschanitsa, (archeological excavations by S.V Oshibkina, Lake Lacha, Kargopolie, Russian North), has been first described about 20 years ago. The find has an important role in resolving anthropological profile of the ancient populations in the Northern and Eastern Europe. This study is dedicated to its multivariate statistical analysis and comparison with a variety of European and Levantine Mesolithic materials. Peschanitsa remains belong to a male individual 45-55 years of age and date to 9890+-120 BP (GIN-4858).

https://i.imgur.com/mQki3Vw.jpeg

He is narrow and long-headed (cranial width 134mm, length 186mm), very high-headed (142mm) and dolichocephalic (72mm). Does this ring a bell?

[Immanenz]

The Burusho have Indo-European ancestry and the most frequent Y-haplogroup among them is R1a



Target: Burusho
Distance: 2.3323% / 0.02332297
52.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
23.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
12.8 TKM_Gonur1_BA
12.0 MNG_East_N




:picard2:

Here is Peschanitsa-1 crania, the oldest EHG next to Sidelkino.

A Mesolithic man from Peschanitsa, (archeological excavations by S.V Oshibkina, Lake Lacha, Kargopolie, Russian North), has been first described about 20 years ago. The find has an important role in resolving anthropological profile of the ancient populations in the Northern and Eastern Europe. This study is dedicated to its multivariate statistical analysis and comparison with a variety of European and Levantine Mesolithic materials. Peschanitsa remains belong to a male individual 45-55 years of age and date to 9890+-120 BP (GIN-4858).



He is narrow and long-headed (cranial width 134mm, length 186mm), very high-headed (142mm) and dolichocephalic (72mm). Does this ring a bell?


well, yeah non-Med populations can be metrically Med while Med populations can be metrically non-Med, congratulations finding out that logical inconsinstency.

[Immanenz]

The Burusho have Indo-European ancestry and the most frequent Y-haplogroup among them is R1a



Target: Burusho
Distance: 2.3323% / 0.02332297
52.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
23.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
12.8 TKM_Gonur1_BA
12.0 MNG_East_N




:picard2:

Here is Peschanitsa-1 crania, the oldest EHG next to Sidelkino.

A Mesolithic man from Peschanitsa, (archeological excavations by S.V Oshibkina, Lake Lacha, Kargopolie, Russian North), has been first described about 20 years ago. The find has an important role in resolving anthropological profile of the ancient populations in the Northern and Eastern Europe. This study is dedicated to its multivariate statistical analysis and comparison with a variety of European and Levantine Mesolithic materials. Peschanitsa remains belong to a male individual 45-55 years of age and date to 9890+-120 BP (GIN-4858).



He is narrow and long-headed (cranial width 134mm, length 186mm), very high-headed (142mm) and dolichocephalic (72mm). Does this ring a bell?


well, yeah non-Med populations can be metrically Med while Med populations can be metrically non-Med, congratulations finding out that logical inconsinstency.

[Token]

well, yeah non-Med populations can be metrically Med while Med populations can be metrically non-Med, congratulations finding out that logical inconsinstency.

There is no inconsistency, ANE was metrically "Nordic" since ever.

[Immanenz]

There is no inconsistency, ANE was metrically "Nordic" since ever.

the inconsistency is in calling them close to Arabs. and the inconsistency would be calling a Med-Nordic mixture just Nordic or just Med because they obv. derive from different populations

[Token]

the inconsistency is in calling them close to Arabs. and the inconsistency would be calling a Med-Nordic mixture just Nordic or just Med because they obv. derive from different populations
You are free to continue with your pseudo-scientific classifications, my post was in response to your recurring insistence that the Indo-Europeans were "robust" (clearly echoing TA's homosexual obsession with robusticity). All data from Eneolithic and Bronze Age steppe populations agree that by far the most recurring type among them was a narrow-faced, dolichocephalic "Nordic" type.

[Immanenz]

You are free to continue with your pseudo-scientific classifications, my post was in response to your recurring insistence that the Indo-Europeans were "robust" (clearly echoing TA's homosexual obsession with robusticity). All data from Eneolithic and Bronze Age steppe populations agree that by far the most recurring type among them was a narrow-faced, dolichocephalic "Nordic" type.

i did not say robuster, just different. Harkonnen is right when he says many Med groups have broader skulls, but that does not make someone necessary robuster per se. Its stays the same anthrotardism to say Arabs and Nordics are similar because they share some similarities. Coon actually said otherwise in his Scythian chapter.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Ukrainians and Balts do not require any EHG besides what is included in their steppe ancestry (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/07/ancient-ancestry-proportions-in-present.html), so whatever forager populations with significant EHG admixture that lived there were completely (or almost completely) wiped out later on. The only Europeans who do need additional EHG ancestry are Russian Slavs (who have Uralic ancestry) and Uralics. You can check this with qpAdm.

Needless to say that G25 wields inaccurate results for those Iberian hunter-gatherers. They harbor significant GoyetQ-like ancestry shared with ANE, and thus the two-way model interprets it wrongly as ANE admixture in Iberian HG. Iron Gates HG do have some ANE (and also Anatolian) admixture, but there are no modern descendants of this population to any significant measure.
Just because a model is accepted by qpAdm and has a good fit doesn't mean it's right. No where in that blog post does it even say Davidski tried to also model them with EHG-rich HGs. Also, Koros_N literally has significant ANE/EHG admixture(I would hope so given he had some SLC24), it was no different from Iron_Gates HGs in Serbia/Romania. It was not a pure WHG like you are implying. I think you know Davidski has a bit of an Eastern Euro and steppe agenda, although omitting a proper model in that case could've been entirely innocent.


Target: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
Distance: 3.8314% / 0.03831375
100.0 LUX_Loschbour

Target: HUN_Koros_N_HG
Distance: 8.8503% / 0.08850309
83.8 LUX_Loschbour
16.2 RUS_AfontovaGora3

Target: ROU_Iron_Gates_HG
Distance: 7.3351% / 0.07335082
78.2 LUX_Loschbour
21.8 RUS_AfontovaGora3


Not even going bother looking up how Yamnaya_Ukraine also can differ from the typical steppe reference(Yamnaya Samara), surely you can see that could also be problematic.

Balts(definitely Balts) and all Balto-Slavs really, require extra EHG/ANE beyond their steppe admixture. Probably Scandinavians too. I've only seen Irish/Scots and ofc other W Europeans score none when they're included in models if memory serves right.

Also, Srubnaya, Sintashta and Andronovo weren't as light as you claim, certainly lighter than Yamnaya/Corded Ware, and the predictions certainly say in theory they were light, but those same predictions have the British overwhelmingly light haired. Basically, the current hirisplex system predicts any trace/tiny spec of "blondism", not actual light or blonde hair. Out of 91 Brits, 43% were predicted as "Blond" or "Blond/d-blond", and that isn't including the "D-blond/brown" category(seeing these rates to me would probably be medium-dark brown). Compare Brits(and other Europeans, I also checked Finns, they were predicted 77 out of 101 "Blond/d-blond" and "Blond", again no "D-blonde-brown", "red", etc counted, so 76% blonde Finns, that's just not true, maybe only in early childhood) to the ancient steppe samples yourself:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/pigmentation/
(mind you the source is a crazy person who thinks there were ancient Nordic Amerindian Incans/etc and who once was called out by Davidski for using contaminated Amerindian genomes but I see no reason to believe he didn't actually just use the freely available genomes and hirisplex system to do this, his Y-SNP calls for ancient genomes match what their papers say and from what I've seen, so do the hirisplex results of the papers I've seen)

You actually can't see many Sintashta/Andronovo samples there(good amount of Timber Grave/Srubnaya samples though, majority dark, which means they were even darker than that because hirisplex skews too light), but there's a few and also related steppe groups, and I've seen other people run hirisplex years ago on them, they definitely had far darker results than the Brits, which means they weren't particularly light haired.

Unless you think Brits are particularly light haired, though. I happen to think they aren't.

Modern or significant blondism/light hair rates are a product of the Iron Age(and specifically related to Germanic and Finnic people, other people with nearly identical steppe admixtures such as the Irish or populations like Baltic_LBA or the weird Wezlin/Tollense semi-population isolate in Mecklenburg did not have the same selection events for blondism and only slightly grew past Bell Beaker rates), not earlier.

[XenophobicPrussian]

To answer the OP question:

https://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/mma/players/full/3016689.png

https://dmxg5wxfqgb4u.cloudfront.net/styles/card/s3/image/1/229/GettyImages-624421782.jpg?VersionId=W9mjosULxpIFRmg4RqQW7BmPHZ MnORDM&itok=kN3VhtSm
(left)

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zCoIjCG-Nng/maxresdefault.jpg
(the virgin Sicilian-American Med vs the chad Yamnayan from Nizhny Novgorod)

[smd555]

[QUOTE=Token;7276367]The Burusho have Indo-European ancestry and the most frequent Y-haplogroup among them is R1a



Target: Burusho
Distance: 2.3323% / 0.02332297
52.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
23.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
12.8 TKM_Gonur1_BA
12.0 MNG_East_N


Is there any evidence that the haplogroup R1a of Burusho originated precisely from the Aryans, and not from the more ancient ANEs, who lived in that territory? The same applies to autosomal components - the presence of a small admixture of hunter-gatherers, which can also be associated with ANE, makes the calculator, for lack of more suitable options, choose a Sintashta, however, it does not work to adjust the accuracy to zero. And, again, where is the evidence that light pigmentation in Burusho or Pashtuns is related to the origin of the Aryans?

[Token]

Is there any evidence that the haplogroup R1a of Burusho originated precisely from the Aryans, and not from the more ancient ANEs, who lived in that territory?

Yes. Pretty much all of the R1a in Asia is under Z93, and the oldest R1a-Z93 are found in Fatyanovo (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/07/fatyanovo-males-were-rich-in-y.html), a subset of the Corded Ware culture. Not coincidentally, Fatyanovo is the predecessor of Sintashta.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.02.184507v1
Interestingly, in all individuals for which the chrY hg could be determined with more depth (n=6), it was R1a2-Z93 (Table 1, Supplementary Data 2), a lineage now spread in Central and South Asia, rather than the R1a1-Z283 lineage that is common in Europe

Furthermore, we see a clear change in ancestry with the arrival of farming – the Fatyanovo Culture individuals were genetically similar to other Corded Ware cultures, carrying a mixture of Steppe and European early farmer ancestry and thus likely originating from a fast migration towards the northeast from somewhere in the vicinity of modern-day Ukraine, which is the closest area where these ancestries coexisted from around 3,000 BC.


The same applies to autosomal components - the presence of a small admixture of hunter-gatherers, which can also be associated with ANE, makes the calculator, for lack of more suitable options, choose a Sintashta, however, it does not work to adjust the accuracy to zero.
Non sense, Sintashta admixture fits perfectly the Y-haplogroup evidence.


And, again, where is the evidence that light pigmentation in Burusho or Pashtuns is related to the origin of the Aryans?
Read my previous posts.

[XenophobicPrussian]

[QUOTE=Token;7276367]The Burusho have Indo-European ancestry and the most frequent Y-haplogroup among them is R1a



Target: Burusho
Distance: 2.3323% / 0.02332297
52.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
23.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
12.8 TKM_Gonur1_BA
12.0 MNG_East_N


Is there any evidence that the haplogroup R1a of Burusho originated precisely from the Aryans, and not from the more ancient ANEs, who lived in that territory? The same applies to autosomal components - the presence of a small admixture of hunter-gatherers, which can also be associated with ANE, makes the calculator, for lack of more suitable options, choose a Sintashta, however, it does not work to adjust the accuracy to zero. And, again, where is the evidence that light pigmentation in Burusho or Pashtuns is related to the origin of the Aryans?
Y-DNA. Burusho R1a is mainly z93/z94, the oldest sample being in the steppes and even very widespread in Fatyanovo culture, very deep in European Russia, we're talking north of Moscow 2900-2000 BC. Completely absent from BMAC and other South/Central Asian samples pre-Indo-European era.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SF74a3xkvg4/WdDa0l5addI/AAAAAAAAGH0/BM8SEreRWfMF_tpH2pfEpd20-68zOE90gCLcBGAs/s1600/R1a-M417_The_Beast.png

The evidence light pigmentation in Burusho/Pashtuns comes from Aryans is reasonable deduction.

[XenophobicPrussian]

[QUOTE=Token;7276367]The Burusho have Indo-European ancestry and the most frequent Y-haplogroup among them is R1a



Target: Burusho
Distance: 2.3323% / 0.02332297
52.2 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
23.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
12.8 TKM_Gonur1_BA
12.0 MNG_East_N


Is there any evidence that the haplogroup R1a of Burusho originated precisely from the Aryans, and not from the more ancient ANEs, who lived in that territory? The same applies to autosomal components - the presence of a small admixture of hunter-gatherers, which can also be associated with ANE, makes the calculator, for lack of more suitable options, choose a Sintashta, however, it does not work to adjust the accuracy to zero. And, again, where is the evidence that light pigmentation in Burusho or Pashtuns is related to the origin of the Aryans?
Y-DNA. Burusho R1a is mainly z93/z94, the oldest sample being in the steppes and even very widespread in Fatyanovo culture, very deep in European Russia, we're talking north of Moscow 2900-2000 BC. Completely absent from BMAC and other South/Central Asian samples pre-Indo-European era.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SF74a3xkvg4/WdDa0l5addI/AAAAAAAAGH0/BM8SEreRWfMF_tpH2pfEpd20-68zOE90gCLcBGAs/s1600/R1a-M417_The_Beast.png

The evidence light pigmentation in Burusho/Pashtuns comes from Aryans is reasonable deduction.

[Norb]

You are free to continue with your pseudo-scientific classifications, my post was in response to your recurring insistence that the Indo-Europeans were "robust" (clearly echoing TA's homosexual obsession with robusticity). All data from Eneolithic and Bronze Age steppe populations agree that by far the most recurring type among them was a narrow-faced, dolichocephalic "Nordic" type.

TA has a sexual obsession with robustness, Norbs obsession is baby faced/gracile Nordics

[HectorOfTroy]

Lol, not really either- a lot of populations had light eyes. She is much closer to a Baltic mixture type although less broad headed ( the Easteuro guys who acc to you cant be "Aryans" ironically anyway).

I dont think eye area and other soft parts etc. can be 100 % precisly reconstructed, i rather asked out of craniometrical reasons

But i do agree on several points you said before, if they were sm like 50 % EHG they cant have only supposed "Mediterranean" Irano Afgan facial features

The skulls had tall faces, not short flattened faces

[smd555]

Yes. Pretty much all of the R1a in Asia is under Z93, and the oldest R1a-Z93 are found in Fatyanovo (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/07/fatyanovo-males-were-rich-in-y.html), a subset of the Corded Ware culture. Not coincidentally, Fatyanovo is the predecessor of Sintashta.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.07.02.184507v1
Interestingly, in all individuals for which the chrY hg could be determined with more depth (n=6), it was R1a2-Z93 (Table 1, Supplementary Data 2), a lineage now spread in Central and South Asia, rather than the R1a1-Z283 lineage that is common in Europe




Does this somehow prove that the Burish subclade originated precisely from the Fatyanovo and was absent in the territory of Central Asia, say, in the Neolithic? How many samples of ancient DNA from Pakistani territory?


Furthermore, we see a clear change in ancestry with the arrival of farming – the Fatyanovo Culture individuals were genetically similar to other Corded Ware cultures, carrying a mixture of Steppe and European early farmer ancestry and thus likely originating from a fast migration towards the northeast from somewhere in the vicinity of modern-day Ukraine, which is the closest area where these ancestries coexisted from around 3,000 BC.

Archaeologists are inclined to think about the origin of Corded Ware culture in central Europe, and not on the territory of Ukraine. Another thing is where its physical ancestors came from. There may be several options. Either a population with a greater steppe component came to central Europe, where it mixed with farmers and hunters, or this mixing was already fully completed on the territory of Ukraine or Russia, and then the population moved to the west.

[Komintasavalta]

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SF74a3xkvg4/WdDa0l5addI/AAAAAAAAGH0/BM8SEreRWfMF_tpH2pfEpd20-68zOE90gCLcBGAs/s1600/R1a-M417_The_Beast.png

The oldest R1a is now PES001 (RUS_Veretye_Meso in G25), which is an EHG from circa 13 kya (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/07/the-oldest-r1a-to-date.html). It's from Arkhangelsk Oblast about 600 km north of Moscow.


$ curl https://haplogroup.info/all-ancient-dna.txt|sed 1d|LC_ALL=C sort -t$'\t' -nk48|cut -f1,2,21,22,26,37,38,48,52,53,55,56,60,61|grep -a R1a|tr \\t \;|head -n10
PES001;;R1a5-YP1301 (under YP1272);R1a-pre-YP1272;267479;R1a;R1a1b;-10705.5;Russia_West_HG;Veretye;"Peschanitsa, Arkhangelsk";1;;
I1819;"Ukraine_HG1.SG, StPet12, site 9, collection 6462, individual 25";R1a;R1a1-M459(xM198);61920;R1a;R1a2;-8708;Ukraine_M;Ukraine_Mesolithic;Vasil'evka;..;;
I4081;OSTCOR1a+OSTCOR1b;R1b1a;R1b1;18147;R1b;R1b;-7411;Iron_Gates_HG;Iron_Gates_HG;Ostrovul Corbului;..;;
I5876;"Grave 142, S5876.E1.L1";R1a;R1a>YP4141>pre-YP5018;28181;R1a;R1a2;-6882;Ukraine_M;Ukraine_Mesolithic;Dereivka;Site I;;
I0061;"I0061.SG, UzOO74";R1a1(xR1a1a) ;R1a>M459>YP1301>FT386000;104534;R1a;R1a1b;-6500;Europe_North_East_HG;Karelia_HG;"Yuzhnyy Oleni Ostrov, Karelia";..;Dark Brown;Brown
Spiginas4;Spiginas4;;R1a (identified as female?);1041;R1a;R1a;-6326;Baltic_HG;Kunda culture;"Spiginas, Lithuania";grave 4;;
I2215;MP9;;"P,P1,R1a1~(xR1b1b,xR1b1a2,xR2a2)";1217;R1a;R1a;-6026;Balkans_MP_Neolithic;Cri?/Dude?ti_MN;Malak Preslavets;..;;
LOK_1980.006;;R1a1-M17;SNP + date + region seem unlikely with the currently available data;;Z;Z;-5300;Siberia_Cis_Baikal_EN;Lokomotiv_EN;"Lokomotiv cemetery, Irkutsk";;;
LOK_1981.024.01;;R1a1-M17;SNP + date + region seem unlikely with the currently available data;;Z;Z;-5300;Siberia_Cis_Baikal_EN;Lokomotiv_EN;"Lokomotiv cemetery, Irkutsk";;;
I0433;"Khvalynsk II Grave 1, SVP HB 46";R1a1;R1a1;13208;R1a;R1a2;-4611;Khvalynsk;Khvalynsk II;"Khvalynsk, Volga River, Samara";Grave 1;;

[Token]

Just because a model is accepted by qpAdm and has a good fit doesn't mean it's right. No where in that blog post does it even say Davidski tried to also model them with EHG-rich HGs. Also, Koros_N literally has significant ANE/EHG admixture(I would hope so given he had some SLC24), it was no different from Iron_Gates HGs in Serbia/Romania. It was not a pure WHG like you are implying. I think you know Davidski has a bit of an Eastern Euro and steppe agenda, although omitting a proper model in that case could've been entirely innocent.

Not even going bother looking up how Yamnaya_Ukraine also can differ from the typical steppe reference(Yamnaya Samara), surely you can see that could also be problematic.

Balts(definitely Balts) and all Balto-Slavs really, require extra EHG/ANE beyond their steppe admixture. Probably Scandinavians too. I've only seen Irish/Scots and ofc other W Europeans score none when they're included in models if memory serves right.

Also, Srubnaya, Sintashta and Andronovo weren't as light as you claim, certainly lighter than Yamnaya/Corded Ware, and the predictions certainly say in theory they were light, but those same predictions have the British overwhelmingly light haired. Basically, the current hirisplex system predicts any trace/tiny spec of "blondism", not actual light or blonde hair. Out of 91 Brits, 43% were predicted as "Blond" or "Blond/d-blond", and that isn't including the "D-blond/brown" category(seeing these rates to me would probably be medium-dark brown). Compare Brits(and other Europeans, I also checked Finns, they were predicted 77 out of 101 "Blond/d-blond" and "Blond", again no "D-blonde-brown", "red", etc counted, so 76% blonde Finns, that's just not true, maybe only in early childhood) to the ancient steppe samples yourself:

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/pigmentation/
(mind you the source is a crazy person who thinks there were ancient Nordic Amerindian Incans/etc and who once was called out by Davidski for using contaminated Amerindian genomes but I see no reason to believe he didn't actually just use the freely available genomes and hirisplex system to do this, his Y-SNP calls for ancient genomes match what their papers say and from what I've seen, so do the hirisplex results of the papers I've seen)

You actually can't see many Sintashta/Andronovo samples there(good amount of Timber Grave/Srubnaya samples though, majority dark, which means they were even darker than that because hirisplex skews too light), but there's a few and also related steppe groups, and I've seen other people run hirisplex years ago on them, they definitely had far darker results than the Brits, which means they weren't particularly light haired.

Unless you think Brits are particularly light haired, though. I happen to think they aren't.

Modern or significant blondism/light hair rates are a product of the Iron Age(and specifically related to Germanic and Finnic people, other people with nearly identical steppe admixtures such as the Irish or populations like Baltic_LBA or the weird Wezlin/Tollense semi-population isolate in Mecklenburg did not have the same selection events for blondism and only slightly grew past Bell Beaker rates), not earlier.
What a load of non sense. Stop vomiting words and show me a good fitting qpAdm model with EHG for Balts and Slavs or bust. Koros_HG has no ANE, it actually has significant ENF admixture.

[Token]

To answer the OP question:

https://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/mma/players/full/3016689.png

https://dmxg5wxfqgb4u.cloudfront.net/styles/card/s3/image/1/229/GettyImages-624421782.jpg?VersionId=W9mjosULxpIFRmg4RqQW7BmPHZ MnORDM&itok=kN3VhtSm
(left)

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zCoIjCG-Nng/maxresdefault.jpg
(the virgin Sicilian-American Med vs the chad Yamnayan from Nizhny Novgorod)

XenophobicPrussian and his long-standing passion for fighters and weightlifters on steroids :laugh:

[Pulsa Di Noura]

Corded: Tall stature, build linear but muscular, perhaps heavier than the Megalithic; extremely long-headed, 194 mm. mean. Vault of great height, means over 140 mm., exceeding breadth; browridges and muscular markings medium to strong; face very long, and of slight to moderate breadth; mandible deep and chin marked, but narrow through the gonial angles. Nose leptorrhine, often prominent. This type, in western and northern Europe, approaches in some respects the Upper Palaeolithic type with which it mixed.





You mean like this?

https://www.nationaltv.ro/data_files/galerie_foto/large_image_3667.jpg

https://www.nationaltv.ro/data_files/galerie_foto/large_image_3668.jpg

https://www.nationaltv.ro/data_files/galerie_foto/large_image_3673.jpg

https://www.nationaltv.ro/data_files/galerie_foto/large_image_3666.jpg

https://static.cinemagia.ro/img/resize/db/actor/01/77/73/ralf-moeller-310551l-poza.jpg

https://static.cinemagia.ro/img/resize/db/actor/01/77/73/ralf-moeller-171560l-poza.jpg

[Veslan]

You are free to continue with your pseudo-scientific classifications, my post was in response to your recurring insistence that the Indo-Europeans were "robust" (clearly echoing TA's homosexual obsession with robusticity). All data from Eneolithic and Bronze Age steppe populations agree that by far the most recurring type among them was a narrow-faced, dolichocephalic "Nordic" type.

Yamna and Andronovo show broad faced tendencies. Although it's true that CWC was mainly narrow faced.

[Token]

Yamna and Andronovo show broad faced tendencies.

Not for Yamnaya, most were actually narrower-faced than gracile Meds from Neolithic Europe. They were essentially pin-heads.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/786486087794163712/876407606506323998/Stop_Lying.png?width=838&height=629

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/786486087794163712/876458640347910144/Yamnayan_pinhead.png?width=186&height=629

There were some broad-headed types in Andronovo, but there is no evidence that they were prevalent. Minussinsk Andronovo falls perfectly within the Nordic range:

https://i.imgur.com/NxNHCbK.png

[Token]

You mean like this?

https://www.nationaltv.ro/data_files/galerie_foto/large_image_3667.jpg

No, there were no steroids in the Bronze Age.

[Veslan]

Not for Yamnaya, most were actually narrower-faced than gracile Meds from Neolithic Europe. They were essentially pin-heads.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/786486087794163712/876407606506323998/Stop_Lying.png?width=838&height=629

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/786486087794163712/876458640347910144/Yamnayan_pinhead.png?width=186&height=629

There were some broad-headed types in Andronovo, but there is no evidence that they were prevalent. Minussinsk Andronovo falls perfectly within the Nordic range:

https://i.imgur.com/NxNHCbK.png

First table relates only to Povolzhe region, not the entire Yamna. According to 1984 studies, Yamna as a whole were mostly broad faced. Third table doesn't even include the facial index, only the upper facial one. Pretty sure Soviet sources had it that Andronovo were mostly broad faced (with leptoprosopic minority of course), but can't find it right now.

[Token]

First table relates only to Povolzhe region, not the entire Yamna. According to 1984 studies, Yamna as a whole were mostly broad faced.
They weren't and i've shown cranial series to prove that, while you've shown nothing. Here are more steppe pinheads for you, this time from Ukraine on the other side of the Pontic-Caspian steppe. The Yamnaya series is again narrower-faced than Gracile Mediterraneans. The Srubnaya series (successors and descendants of Andronovo) is equally narrow-faced.


https://i.imgur.com/jODNQ9b.png

https://i.imgur.com/JY33jYl.png



Third table doesn't even include the facial index, only the upper facial one. Pretty sure Soviet sources had it that Andronovo were mostly broad faced (with
leptoprosopic minority of course), but can't find it right now.
Narrowness of face isn't defined by facial index, you can have a broad and at the same very long face (European hunter-gatherers being the prime example of that). An educative example: the facial index of Neolithic Mediterranean is equal to that of UP Europeans (~86), but the latter was extremely broad-headed while the former were obviously narrow-faced. The Minussinsk Andronovo series has a bizygomatic diameter of 136mm, thus narrow-faced.

I'm still waiting for those broad-faced steppe series.

[Veslan]

They weren't and i've shown cranial series to prove that
of which most are irrelevant and half are cropped too much and it can't be even determined what do they describe

while you've shown nothing.

Surely I haven't yet, because that will require a shit tone of researching in russian. Just gonna leave you with it for now for the whole of Yamna (and not cherrypicked series that lean more towards East Med)

The Yamna population generally belongs to the European race. It was tall (175.5cm), dolichocephalic, with broad faces of medium height. Among them there were, however, more robust elements with high and wide faces of the proto-Europoid type, and also more gracile individuals with narrow and high faces, probably reflecting contacts with the East Mediterranean type (Kurts 1984: 90).
https://dienekes.blogspot.com/2006/05/anthropological-types-of-corded-ware.html

Для населения ямной культуры характерны черепа с низким и ортогнатным лицом, низкими орбитами, сильно выступающим носом, сильно наклонным лбом и мощными надбровными дугами. Население культуры в целом не было однородным. У ряда находок выражены резко европеоидные особенности. На севере волго-уральского ареала население могло быть родственным волосовскому и гаринско-борскому, на востоке — терсекско-ботайскому. Также наблюдается сходство с черепами днепро-донецкой и среднестоговской культур. Предположительно носители ямной культуры были потомками пришельцев с запада и местных жителей хвалынской культуры. Носители ямно-полтавкинской культуры отличаются большей долихокефальностью, высоким и узким лицом, чем ранне-ямной


Narrowness of face isn't defined by facial index
Literally it is. That's why it's called the facial index. Duh. Everything below 88,0 FI is not narrow faced. Don't care if you think it still is.

[Token]

No measurements, no cranial series, no evidence. Keep coping.


of which most are irrelevant and half are cropped too much and it can't be even determined what do they describe

Don't blame on the series your utter inability to comprehend the data.



Literally it is. That's why it's called the facial index. Duh. Everything below 88,0 FI is not narrow faced. Don't care if you think it still is.
It isn't, narrowness by definition concerns only to the width of the face. I've already shown you that your dumb definition would make Gracile Mediterraneans and Upper Paleothic Europeans (one of the broadest faced human populations) equally narrow-faced, but your IQ was insufficient to grasp it.

According to Veslan this:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQAvI2BeMngtUBUsDAHuPBMqZ0tOmbpM ymSnw&usqp=CAU

is as narrow-faced as this:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTR6ADUxyjTzbJ-S9ZK0GAsaapCEbi0s7ahCw&usqp=CAU

Anthrotardy at its peak.

[Veslan]

Keep coping.
Actually I'm narrow faced myself.

btw. your minussinsk andronovo data that "fall in the nordic range" are actually just medium mid faced

steppe series, unfortunetaly soviet anthropologists didn't measure facial index, so they're kinda uselss anyway, medium mid faced tendencies for both genders (male left, female right):
https://i.imgur.com/JwQuF8g.png


According to Veslan this:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQAvI2BeMngtUBUsDAHuPBMqZ0tOmbpM ymSnw&usqp=CAU

is as narrow-faced as this:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTR6ADUxyjTzbJ-S9ZK0GAsaapCEbi0s7ahCw&usqp=CAU


Yes. Both skulls are mesoprosopic. Obviously.

[Zanzibar]

double.

[Zanzibar]

Afghans

https://i.ibb.co/VYY1bQr/Screenshot-20210818-171959-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/9HHDBVz)


This seems to be a progressive but ancient look. This is what I imagine Scythians/Sarmatians to look like.

[Avicenna]

This seems to be a progressive but ancient look. This is what I imagine Scythians/Sarmatians to look like.

Don't know why but I just imagine the steppe nomads looked like this afghan guy

https://i.ibb.co/fM6H1F4/Screenshot-20210823-215459-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/qBqpyjk)
https://i.ibb.co/GQQdpj5/Screenshot-20210823-215443-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/HTTK4QH)

[Avicenna]

Double

[Zanzibar]

Don't know why but I just imagine the steppe nomads looked like this afghan guy

https://i.ibb.co/fM6H1F4/Screenshot-20210823-215459-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/qBqpyjk)
https://i.ibb.co/GQQdpj5/Screenshot-20210823-215443-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/HTTK4QH)

Could be possible they have look like him as well. Although I would think their faces are a bit more rugged with almost aquiline nose (don't know why i thought like that).

Btw the guy looks White but more in an Eastern Euro way I feel.

[Avicenna]

Could be possible they have look like him as well. Although I would think their faces are a bit more rugged with almost aquiline nose (don't know why i thought like that).

Btw the guy looks White but more in an Eastern Euro way I feel.

Ofcourse , but I reckon a little facial hair and certain clothing will help with that . Nonetheless the man in question does look quite "Aryan " looking despite not having blonde hair / blue eyes .

Yeah he does look euro but his look is not out of place for ethnic afghan Caucasoids .

[Norb]

very Proto- Nordic looking (the other light types do not though- however he looks more IndoEuropean than the majority European Nordic examples posted on daily basis). Interestingly the guy next to him could have a Yamnaya look, preserved "CHG" look (since others went into some extreme brachy forms)

horrible looking individual he is

[Avicenna]

horrible looking individual he is

The stuff he was saying certainly wasn't . He looks noble to me .

[kevinmac]

Aryans basically looked like North Atlantids and some looked like Pontids. Here is an example of a typical aryan(at least the iranic type).:

https://scontent.fybz2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/10384219_366153420221404_4994917289654435100_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=cdbe9c&_nc_ohc=Oy3WhYzF45IAX9qRYre&_nc_ht=scontent.fybz2-1.fna&oh=15bb26eb92b4b25fd7006d716db08918&oe=614D0132

[Veslan]

Aryans basically looked like North Atlantids and some looked like Pontids. Here is an example of a typical aryan(at least the iranic type).:

https://scontent.fybz2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.18169-9/10384219_366153420221404_4994917289654435100_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=cdbe9c&_nc_ohc=Oy3WhYzF45IAX9qRYre&_nc_ht=scontent.fybz2-1.fna&oh=15bb26eb92b4b25fd7006d716db08918&oe=614D0132

North Atlantid is more of an Iron Age type with a very strong farmer influence. PIE were mostly high vaulted, not low vaulted like North Atlantids are supposed to be.

[HectorOfTroy]

lol can someone post actual skulls and not just speculating. btw CWC doesnt count, im talking about original PIE/Kurgans from Far Eastern Europe/Caucasus/Central Asia not diluted with other populations who lived in europe.

https://image.sciencenordic.com/1419112.jpg?imageId=1419112&width=1058&height=604
https://survivethejive.blogspot.com/2021/07/what-did-yamnaya-look-like.html

only picture of a skulls ive seen so far. tall face, big square forward set cheekbones, mild prognathism maybe, strong jaw/generally robust.

[HectorOfTroy]

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/khvalynsk-yamna-srubna-facial-reconstruction.jpg

Right is Srubnaya. Yeah tall face with decent/strong cheekbones and jaw seems to be the predominant trait, a robust (and maybe SLIGHTLY Asianized) north pontid comes to mind

[Übermensch]

That's true, and that's why it makes zero sense to classify him as Nordic-Med. It makes as much sense as classifying someone as Borreby-Brunn.

I agree with most of your observations but is not entirelly true.
Coon classified an irishman (plate 9, figure 2) as being metrically intermediate between borreby and brunn.
The differences between Brunn and borreby are:

1) More blondism among borreby and more rufosity/brown hair among Brunn
2) Broader bi-patieral distance among Borreby
3) More developed splancocranium and more prognathism among Brunn
4) Broader jaw among Brunn
5) Stronger browridges and more sloped forehead among Brunn
6) rounder eyesocket among Brunn
7)lower cranial valut among Brunn

Brunn measuraments (plate 4):

Head lenght:212mm
Head breadht:152mm
Head height: unknown (pheraps around 122mm)
Minium frontal:114mm
Byzigmatic:150mm
Bigonial:130mm
Total facial height:134mm
nasal height:60mm
Nasal widht:42mm

eye colour: blue,hair colour:light brown

2) individual

Head lenght:207mm
Head breadht:154mm
Head height:unkown (propably around 120mm)
Minium frontal:108mm
Byzigomatic:152mm
Bigonial:120mm
total facial height:134mm
Nasal height:68mm
Nasal widht:48mm

3) (nordic admixed)

Head lenght:208mm
Head Breadht:151mm
head height: unkwon (but propably 130mm)
Minium frontal:108mm
byzigomatic:141mm
bigonial:102mm
Total facial height:134mm
Nasal height:57mm
nasal breadht:34mm

3) individual

Head lenght:212mm
head breadht:160mm
head height: (unkown but propably around 121mm)
miunium frontal:112mm
byzigomatic:148mm
bigonial:111mm
total facial height:146mm
upper facial height:87mm
nasal height:65mm
nasal breadht:38mm

BORREBY (palte 5):

Figure 1:

Head lenght:210mm
Head breadht:169mm
Head height: (unknown but propably around 130mm)
Minium frontal:128mm
Byzigomatic:155mm
Bigonial:120mm
Total facial height:127mm
Nasal height:62mm
nasal breadht:44mm

2individual:

Head lenght:197mm
head breadht:166mm
Minium frontal:114mm
byzigomatic:148mm
bigonial:123mm
total facial height:132mm
nasal height:65mm
nasal breadht:36mm

3 individual

head lenght:199mm
head breadht:158mm
byzigomatic:147mm
bigonial:109mm
total facial height:118mm

5th individual

head lenght:190mm
head breadht:165mm
minium frontal:110mm
byzigomatic:157mm
bigonial:128mm
total facial height:123mm
nasal height:54mm
nasal breadht:38mm

[Norb]

post 25
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?327422-Classify-and-pass/page3

[HectorOfTroy]

This is a very tricky question. Mostly because the term "Aryans" is kinda outdated and confusing, some people by saying Aryans mean the Proto-Indo-Europeans (Yamna culture), some mean exclusively Proto-Indo-Iranians (Andronovo culture), others mean exclusively those of Andronovo culture that invaded India and became upper castes like Brahmins, Kshatriya and Vaishya. I suppose you mean both.

Firstly, the ANE people, who were of course, European Cro-Magnoid Caucasoids altered by Proto-Mongoloid type. By Proto-Mongoloid i mean they had lower cephalic index and "tougher" features than the most of modern day East Asians, although they had still other distinctive Mongoloid traits such as prognathism, epicanthic folds, and flattened nose bridge (so they were neither Turanid, nor Lappoid...). Although more eastern than WHG and farmers, ANE were the ones to develop genes for blond hair, even though it was in the minority back then.

These ANE who came to Eastern Europe became Eastern Hunter Gatherers, and these who came to Caucasus, Caucasian Hunther Gatherers. Both groups assimilated previously living hunter gatherer groups they met on their way, thus tendency was for post-ANE HGs to become less Mongoloid and more Caucasoid each generation.

EHG and CHG who met on the Pontic-Caspian steppe domesticated horses and became the Yamna culture (3300–2600 BC). Phenotypically, they were dolichocephals of three different types: broad faced and primitive Cro-Magnoid, mesoprosopic intermediate ("Brunn"-like), and leptoprosopic and gracile ("East Med"-like). Some of the more CHG influenced ones also became what we would call "Corded Proto-Nordic" type, showing great resemblence to Iranid metrically. They were predominantly dark haired and dark eyed, although did carry genes for blond hair and blue eyes (latter being developed by WHG) as well.

https://i.imgur.com/I6kpVht.png
https://i.imgur.com/CnTKVlH.jpg
https://humanjourney.us/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/MaleYamnaya1.jpg

Some modern Yamna reconstructions. As it can be noticed: rather swarthy, but somewhat progressive leaning. Boldyrevo man leans towards being a "Pontid" type, while Bykovo man shows residual Mongoloid...

Then Northwesternmost Yamna people invaded Central Europe and created Corded Ware culture (2900 BC – 2350 BC), admixing with the EEF farmer populations living there, who were, ironically, way lighter pigmented than them, or at least this is what genetic evidence implies. Some of these Corded Ware people, after centuries of admixing, moved eastwards, established Abashevo-Sintashta cultures, and then moved to central asia establishing the Andronovo Culture (2000–900 BC)

So, Andronovo people who we believe were Proto-Indo-Iranians, were not pure Yamna tribe. Phenotypically they differed a bit, because they were light haired and light eyed at about 60% range, comparable to modern English or Poles. Many of them were either Cro-Magnoid types or so called Iranian Nordoids (more mesoprosopic than European Nordics), other being simply Corded Nordics or even Pontid or North Pontid types with stronger EEF influence. They expanded south, southeast and east, becoming ancestors of 1) Persians, 2) Aryans in India 3) Tarim basin mummies we found.

Some Soviet-time Andronovo reconstructions. Not coloured, but they appear to be more "White" looking than Yamnaya based alone on skull and facial features:
https://i.imgur.com/kK0vfPN.jpg
https://i1.wp.com/thestrangecontinent.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/b_981_1.jpg?ssl=1
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Egor-Kitov/publication/304847706/figure/fig3/AS:594370113851392@1518720286768/A-skull-and-sculptural-forensic-facial-reconstruction-from-burial-of-Kizilskiy-I-cemetery.png

Great answer. So basically CHG and EHG mainly with minor pieces of WHG and Mongoloid? And you're saying that they were originally more mongoloid or proto mongoloid but developed a more caucasoid look as they assimilated the DNA of more leptoprosopic people types like East meds/EEF? i heard the first leptoprosopic skulls came from the Near East due to permanent settlement/agriculture, less need for tougher food, and probably an easier lifestyle so less robusticity required. The first native Americans were ANE though right? The first native American skulls look kind of caucasoid (not entirely, but more so than contemporary east asian populations) just look at Kennewick man

[coolfrenchguy]

the aryans ,well ,yes, were an ancient tribe of india,with all the european facial features/facial traits/greek profile,very tall like 1.80cms /2m (metric) maybe even higher,with a coppered/light browned skin



something than you should to read :

The True Aryans: Who Were They Really and How Were Their Origins Corrupted? Kerry Sullivan
Today, the word ‘Aryan’ is loaded with all sorts of negative connotation, largely due to Nazi ideology, Aryans have become associated with racial hierarchies that consider white, blonde, blue-eyed peoples superior. This served as a very useful propaganda tool for couching racist sentiments in seeming historic realities. However, it is not factual.
Only in the late 19th early 20th centuries did Aryan become equated with Germanic or Nordic peoples. Prior to this corruption, Aryan referred to an archaic language whose speakers are thought to have spread and influenced languages throughout the Indian subcontinent.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/Rigveda-in-Sanskrit.jpg?itok=UWxkNcvaRigveda in Sanskrit, India early 19th century. ( Public Domain (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Rigveda_MS2097.jpg)) Sanskrit is a standardized dialect of Old Indo-Aryan. The Real AryansTo quickly put any Nazi suppositions to rest, the earliest known Aryans lived in prehistoric Iran. These people migrated to northern India sometime around 1,500 BC. Previous inhabitants of the Indian subcontinent called these newcomers ārya. The English ‘Aryan’ comes from this Sanskrit word. Interestingly, the term has a cognate in the Persian language, ērān. This word is the source of the modern country name, Iran.
The Indus Valley Civilization was highly developed before the Aryans arrived. Some evidence “suggests that the Indus Valley Civilization had social conditions comparable to Sumeria and even superior to the contemporary Babylonians and Egyptians” (Violatti, 2013). Religions had arisen around 5500 BC, farming communities around 4000 BC, and urban living around 2500 BC. The area reached its peak in 2000 BC.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/life-in-Indus-Valley-Civilization.jpg?itok=sO1bHzstDiorama of everyday life in Indus Valley Civilization. (National Science Centre, Delhi, India) (Biswarup Ganguly/ CC BY 3.0 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Indus_Valley_Diorama_-_Indian_Science_and_Technology_Heritage_Gallery_-_National_Science_Centre_-_New_Delhi_2014-05-06_0806.JPG))Starting in approximately 1500 BC, nomadic cattle herders from Central Asia began to cross the Hindu Kush Mountains and to settle in the verdant Indus Valley. These nomads were, of course, the Aryans. Popular myth has it that the Aryans were unstoppable invaders, proto-Mongols, who took over the Indian subcontinent and led the Indus Valley Civilization to collapse. There is not much evidence to support this theory. Rather, it seems that over time the Aryans filled the void left by the collapse of the Indus Valley Civilization.


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The Cult of Mithra: Sacred Temples, and Vedic Legends, and Ancient Armenian Understanding (https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/cult-mithra-sacred-temples-and-vedic-legends-and-ancient-armenian-understanding-006423)
Stash of Books from the Witch Library of Nazi Chief Himmler Found in Prague (https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-general/stash-books-witch-library-nazi-chief-himmler-found-prague-005570)


https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/An-Aryan-general.jpgAn Aryan general. (Justin Gauraqv Murgai/ CC BY NC ND 2.0 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/phoenixation/2901189747/in/photostream/))Archaeological evidence shows that the societies were decaying in 1800 BC, most likely due to changes in river patterns. Some researchers argue that the Saraswati River dried up; others say it became prone to catastrophic flooding. Students of environmental science will know that these scenarios are not mutually exclusive. Whether by floods, droughts, or invasion, the agricultural practices that originally enabled the Indus people to flourish were disrupted. Thereafter, the economies and societal orders built on that agriculture also crumbled. “The evidence supporting the decline of the Indus River Civilization is compelling: writing started to disappear, standardized weights and measures used for trade and taxation purposes fell out of use, the connections with the Near East were interrupted, and some cities were gradually abandoned.” (Violetti, 2013) Shortly thereafter, the Aryans entered the scene. Soon, their language, agricultural, and animal husbandry practices became ascendant.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/Illustration-said-to-depict-an-Indo-Aryan-person.jpgIllustration said to depict an Indo-Aryan person. ( No Known Copyright (https://www.flickr.com/photos/internetarchivebookimages/14598034917))The Kingdom of AryanThere is little evidence to speak of what the Kingdom of Aryan was like. Ancient sources only reference Aryans in passing and there is no way of knowing how accurate any of the statements are. For example, the Greek historian Herodotus, describing the people of Media, writes, “The Medes were called anciently by all people Aryans; but when Medea, the Colchian, came to them from Athens, they changed their name. Such is the account which they themselves give.” (Herodotus, 2013)

https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/Head-of-Herodotus.jpgHead of Herodotus; Greek inscription. Roman copy of the Imperial era (2nd century AD) after a Greek bronze original of the first half of the 4th century BC. From Benha (ancient Athribis), Lower Egypt. ( Public Domain (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Herodotos_Met_91.8.jpg)) Herodotus mentions Aryan people, but doesn’t go into much detail. This is not very helpful in understanding the character of Aryan people. An equally sketchy account of ancient Aryan legitimacy is the Zoroastrian religion. The term Airyana Vaejah , which translates as ‘Aryan expanse,’ refers to the mythical homeland of the Iranian people and is supposed to be the center of the world. This engenders the term with a certain amount of respectability, but still does not really give any racial or hierarchical meaning to it.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/Zoroastrian-devotional-art_0.jpgZoroastrian devotional art. ( Public Domain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster#/media/File:Zoroaster_1.jpg))Elsewhere, Persian kings like Darius the Great and Xerxes are described as ‘Aryans of Aryan stock.’ This most likely refers to the original Aryans coming from Central Asia. Possibly due to Zoroastrian influences on Vedic religions, the terms arya and anarya are used in a moral sense, as to distinguish proper behavior from improper behavior. An Aryan thus was one who lived according to his or her dharma. It is not clear if this word derives from a tribal name. But it is clear as to how this designation could begin to take on connotations of nobility and superiority.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/Illustration-of-Darius_0.jpgIllustration of Darius with his Parasol Bearers. 1904. ( Public Domain (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A_history_of_all_nations_from_the_earliest_ti mes;_being_a_universal_historical_library_%281905% 29_%2814759221686%29.jpg))‘Aryan’ Becomes DistortedIn the Indian epic the Ramayana, Ravana refers to himself as arya. This could be because he is part of the highest caste or because he acts honorably.
Whatever the confused linguistic legacy of Aryan may be, it is certain that by the dawn of the 20th century, Aryan had become equated with nobility and superiority. Somewhere in the mists of time, this Indo-Iranian term came to be used for Indo-European peoples. The thinking went that ancient European peoples spread out from the frigid north to conqueror all of Eurasia. These ancient peoples were the Aryans.


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https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/West-Aryan-types-of-eastern-and-northern-Europe.jpg?itok=T_QlF2GbWest Aryan types of eastern and northern Europe. On the picture: Georgians, Ossette, Albanian, Woman of Iceland, Russian woman of Rjasan, Roumanian woman, Poles of Radom. ( Public Domain (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/West_Aryan_types_of_eastern_and_northern_Europe_by _Gustav_M%C3%BCtzel_%281893%29.jpg))Moreover, the more ancient something was, the more legitimate and more superior it was thought to be. Thus, the Germans declared themselves the descendants of the ancient, noble Aryan race, the most superior race in the racial hierarchy, who once ruled all of Eurasia. This pseudo-science served as a propaganda for the Nazis to achieve their political ends.
Please note that today, the appropriate term is Proto-Indo-European (PIE) languages, and it implies not that one language conquered and influenced all the others, but rather that many ancient languages in Eurasia seem to share common origins. PIE subcategories include Proto-Celtic, Proto-Baltic-Slavic, Proto-Greek, and Proto-Indo-Iranian (the Indo-Aryan language can be found under this last category). Certain neo-Nazi groups still posit that the Aryan race is Germanic or Nordic - but this is not supported by any historical or archaeological evidence.
Top Image: Aryan warriors. Source: Justin Gauraqv Murgai/ CC BY NC ND 2.0 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/phoenixation/2902030468)
By Kerry Sullivan (https://www.ancient-origins.net/users/kerry-sullivan)
Sources:The Editors of Encyclopædia Britannica. “Aryan.” Encyclopædia Britannica , Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc., 26 Jan. 2017, www.britannica.com/topic/Aryan (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Aryan).
Herodotus. Histories of Herodotus . The Classics Us, 2013.

[coolfrenchguy]

Don't know why but I just imagine the steppe nomads looked like this afghan guy

https://i.ibb.co/fM6H1F4/Screenshot-20210823-215459-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/qBqpyjk)
https://i.ibb.co/GQQdpj5/Screenshot-20210823-215443-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/HTTK4QH)

this afghani is really euro featured ,he could pass as a russian fingers in the nose,isn't?

afghanistan is pluri-tribal like turkey or similar countries,like this girl from at the right side with all the euro features
https://www.odt.co.nz/sites/default/files/styles/odt_story_slideshow/public/slideshow/node-9485/2016/04/fans9_Medium.jpg?itok=3FO1HwP3

[HectorOfTroy]

the aryans ,well ,yes, were an ancient tribe of india,with all the european facial features/facial traits/greek profile,very tall like 1.80cms /2m (metric) maybe even higher,with a coppered/light browned skin



something than you should to read :

The True Aryans: Who Were They Really and How Were Their Origins Corrupted? Kerry Sullivan
Today, the word ‘Aryan’ is loaded with all sorts of negative connotation, largely due to Nazi ideology, Aryans have become associated with racial hierarchies that consider white, blonde, blue-eyed peoples superior. This served as a very useful propaganda tool for couching racist sentiments in seeming historic realities. However, it is not factual.
Only in the late 19th early 20th centuries did Aryan become equated with Germanic or Nordic peoples. Prior to this corruption, Aryan referred to an archaic language whose speakers are thought to have spread and influenced languages throughout the Indian subcontinent.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/Rigveda-in-Sanskrit.jpg?itok=UWxkNcvaRigveda in Sanskrit, India early 19th century. ( Public Domain (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Rigveda_MS2097.jpg)) Sanskrit is a standardized dialect of Old Indo-Aryan. The Real AryansTo quickly put any Nazi suppositions to rest, the earliest known Aryans lived in prehistoric Iran. These people migrated to northern India sometime around 1,500 BC. Previous inhabitants of the Indian subcontinent called these newcomers ārya. The English ‘Aryan’ comes from this Sanskrit word. Interestingly, the term has a cognate in the Persian language, ērān. This word is the source of the modern country name, Iran.
The Indus Valley Civilization was highly developed before the Aryans arrived. Some evidence “suggests that the Indus Valley Civilization had social conditions comparable to Sumeria and even superior to the contemporary Babylonians and Egyptians” (Violatti, 2013). Religions had arisen around 5500 BC, farming communities around 4000 BC, and urban living around 2500 BC. The area reached its peak in 2000 BC.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/life-in-Indus-Valley-Civilization.jpg?itok=sO1bHzstDiorama of everyday life in Indus Valley Civilization. (National Science Centre, Delhi, India) (Biswarup Ganguly/ CC BY 3.0 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Indus_Valley_Diorama_-_Indian_Science_and_Technology_Heritage_Gallery_-_National_Science_Centre_-_New_Delhi_2014-05-06_0806.JPG))Starting in approximately 1500 BC, nomadic cattle herders from Central Asia began to cross the Hindu Kush Mountains and to settle in the verdant Indus Valley. These nomads were, of course, the Aryans. Popular myth has it that the Aryans were unstoppable invaders, proto-Mongols, who took over the Indian subcontinent and led the Indus Valley Civilization to collapse. There is not much evidence to support this theory. Rather, it seems that over time the Aryans filled the void left by the collapse of the Indus Valley Civilization.


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The Cult of Mithra: Sacred Temples, and Vedic Legends, and Ancient Armenian Understanding (https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/cult-mithra-sacred-temples-and-vedic-legends-and-ancient-armenian-understanding-006423)
Stash of Books from the Witch Library of Nazi Chief Himmler Found in Prague (https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-general/stash-books-witch-library-nazi-chief-himmler-found-prague-005570)


https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/An-Aryan-general.jpgAn Aryan general. (Justin Gauraqv Murgai/ CC BY NC ND 2.0 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/phoenixation/2901189747/in/photostream/))Archaeological evidence shows that the societies were decaying in 1800 BC, most likely due to changes in river patterns. Some researchers argue that the Saraswati River dried up; others say it became prone to catastrophic flooding. Students of environmental science will know that these scenarios are not mutually exclusive. Whether by floods, droughts, or invasion, the agricultural practices that originally enabled the Indus people to flourish were disrupted. Thereafter, the economies and societal orders built on that agriculture also crumbled. “The evidence supporting the decline of the Indus River Civilization is compelling: writing started to disappear, standardized weights and measures used for trade and taxation purposes fell out of use, the connections with the Near East were interrupted, and some cities were gradually abandoned.” (Violetti, 2013) Shortly thereafter, the Aryans entered the scene. Soon, their language, agricultural, and animal husbandry practices became ascendant.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/Illustration-said-to-depict-an-Indo-Aryan-person.jpgIllustration said to depict an Indo-Aryan person. ( No Known Copyright (https://www.flickr.com/photos/internetarchivebookimages/14598034917))The Kingdom of AryanThere is little evidence to speak of what the Kingdom of Aryan was like. Ancient sources only reference Aryans in passing and there is no way of knowing how accurate any of the statements are. For example, the Greek historian Herodotus, describing the people of Media, writes, “The Medes were called anciently by all people Aryans; but when Medea, the Colchian, came to them from Athens, they changed their name. Such is the account which they themselves give.” (Herodotus, 2013)

https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/Head-of-Herodotus.jpgHead of Herodotus; Greek inscription. Roman copy of the Imperial era (2nd century AD) after a Greek bronze original of the first half of the 4th century BC. From Benha (ancient Athribis), Lower Egypt. ( Public Domain (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/Herodotos_Met_91.8.jpg)) Herodotus mentions Aryan people, but doesn’t go into much detail. This is not very helpful in understanding the character of Aryan people. An equally sketchy account of ancient Aryan legitimacy is the Zoroastrian religion. The term Airyana Vaejah , which translates as ‘Aryan expanse,’ refers to the mythical homeland of the Iranian people and is supposed to be the center of the world. This engenders the term with a certain amount of respectability, but still does not really give any racial or hierarchical meaning to it.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/Zoroastrian-devotional-art_0.jpgZoroastrian devotional art. ( Public Domain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroaster#/media/File:Zoroaster_1.jpg))Elsewhere, Persian kings like Darius the Great and Xerxes are described as ‘Aryans of Aryan stock.’ This most likely refers to the original Aryans coming from Central Asia. Possibly due to Zoroastrian influences on Vedic religions, the terms arya and anarya are used in a moral sense, as to distinguish proper behavior from improper behavior. An Aryan thus was one who lived according to his or her dharma. It is not clear if this word derives from a tribal name. But it is clear as to how this designation could begin to take on connotations of nobility and superiority.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/Illustration-of-Darius_0.jpgIllustration of Darius with his Parasol Bearers. 1904. ( Public Domain (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A_history_of_all_nations_from_the_earliest_ti mes;_being_a_universal_historical_library_%281905% 29_%2814759221686%29.jpg))‘Aryan’ Becomes DistortedIn the Indian epic the Ramayana, Ravana refers to himself as arya. This could be because he is part of the highest caste or because he acts honorably.
Whatever the confused linguistic legacy of Aryan may be, it is certain that by the dawn of the 20th century, Aryan had become equated with nobility and superiority. Somewhere in the mists of time, this Indo-Iranian term came to be used for Indo-European peoples. The thinking went that ancient European peoples spread out from the frigid north to conqueror all of Eurasia. These ancient peoples were the Aryans.


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https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/West-Aryan-types-of-eastern-and-northern-Europe.jpg?itok=T_QlF2GbWest Aryan types of eastern and northern Europe. On the picture: Georgians, Ossette, Albanian, Woman of Iceland, Russian woman of Rjasan, Roumanian woman, Poles of Radom. ( Public Domain (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/West_Aryan_types_of_eastern_and_northern_Europe_by _Gustav_M%C3%BCtzel_%281893%29.jpg))Moreover, the more ancient something was, the more legitimate and more superior it was thought to be. Thus, the Germans declared themselves the descendants of the ancient, noble Aryan race, the most superior race in the racial hierarchy, who once ruled all of Eurasia. This pseudo-science served as a propaganda for the Nazis to achieve their political ends.
Please note that today, the appropriate term is Proto-Indo-European (PIE) languages, and it implies not that one language conquered and influenced all the others, but rather that many ancient languages in Eurasia seem to share common origins. PIE subcategories include Proto-Celtic, Proto-Baltic-Slavic, Proto-Greek, and Proto-Indo-Iranian (the Indo-Aryan language can be found under this last category). Certain neo-Nazi groups still posit that the Aryan race is Germanic or Nordic - but this is not supported by any historical or archaeological evidence.
Top Image: Aryan warriors. Source: Justin Gauraqv Murgai/ CC BY NC ND 2.0 (https://www.flickr.com/photos/phoenixation/2902030468)
By Kerry Sullivan (https://www.ancient-origins.net/users/kerry-sullivan)
Sources:The Editors of Encyclopædia Britannica. “Aryan.” Encyclopædia Britannica , Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc., 26 Jan. 2017, www.britannica.com/topic/Aryan (https://www.britannica.com/topic/Aryan).
Herodotus. Histories of Herodotus . The Classics Us, 2013.


As far as I know there still hasn't been a consensus on the aryan homeland, but South Siberia, Mesopotamia, Anatolia, Caucasus and Far Eastern Europe seem hotly debated, the most currently accepted origin theories being Caucasus or Far Eastern Europe I think. haplogroup R originated in South Siberia, haplogroup R im pretty sure is pre-Aryan/far older than Aryan culture so might be a moot point. it says that the earliest R1a (an Aryan paternal lineage common in Eastern Europe and India today) was first found in Eastern Europe though. As for R1b (the other Aryan paternal lineage) the earliest known individual to carry it was found in North Eastern Italy. These earliest known variants of R1b and R1a found in Europe might of been pre-aryan and the variant that the Aryans carried might not have even been the same variant as these earliest known ones. Still possible that the actual Aryan homeland was North Western Asia as you put it

[Albertón]

https://i.ibb.co/7ttfBR8/Screenshot-20210818-171959-com-google-android-youtube.jpg2

Very thick browridges. Honest altruist thal spotted.

[Avicenna]

this afghani is really euro featured ,he could pass as a russian fingers in the nose,isn't?

afghanistan is pluri-tribal like turkey or similar countries,like this girl from at the right side with all the euro features
https://www.odt.co.nz/sites/default/files/styles/odt_story_slideshow/public/slideshow/node-9485/2016/04/fans9_Medium.jpg?itok=3FO1HwP3

Not like turkey at all, Alot of Turks have direct european ancestry whereas there is no known direct euro ancestry among afghans . We have just kept our look for the most part since people who inhabit south central Asia descend from steppe like people ( scythians , saka , hepthalites, kushans) . We are an eastern iranic people , and these people historically and archeologically were described as light featured .

[KirillMazur]

Both types of R1.
https://i.postimg.cc/qvg4y2JB/k-IVimy0-VT-0.jpg

[Boudin]

ask aherne

I did and he didn't reply.

[Abti]

Both types of R1.
https://i.postimg.cc/qvg4y2JB/k-IVimy0-VT-0.jpg

But Van Gogh was J2a-L26 :)

[Dick]

But Van Gogh was J2a-L26 :)

And that's why he is among the most famous and influential figures in the history of western art. Adolf Jakob Hitler shouldn't have kept his jewish heritage a secret in art school.

[Your Old Comrade]

As blonde as Hitler, slender like Goering and tall like Goebbels.

;)

[Sorab12]

One of the lots
https://iili.io/HpXK59s.jpg (https://freeimage.host/)
Kao stari žrec ...

[Mortimer]

Afghans

https://i.ibb.co/XX41STh/Screenshot-20210620-170606-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/31s2BHD)
https://i.ibb.co/pvhrcxb/Screenshot-20210818-171710-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/Y70Tm3P)
https://i.ibb.co/bQfp2sF/Screenshot-20210818-175732-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/ZGZyYBS)
https://i.ibb.co/VYY1bQr/Screenshot-20210818-171959-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/9HHDBVz)
https://i.ibb.co/xfqnFcd/Screenshot-20210823-103747-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/P9G2Db0)
https://i.ibb.co/FxZmDR8/Screenshot-20210823-103630-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/GxYn5zC)
https://i.ibb.co/HG3HV9q/Screenshot-20210823-103636-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/7rL1X0K)

https://i.ibb.co/Pt1rk7D/Screenshot-20210323-112352.jpg (https://ibb.co/mShRpLN)
https://i.ibb.co/1KRvbKH/Screenshot-20210402-153334.jpg (https://ibb.co/BjTzwj8)
https://i.ibb.co/Jsb8dQy/Screenshot-20210319-140317.jpg (https://ibb.co/yQMKRSY)
https://i.ibb.co/tMrSTMw/Screenshot-20210428-232847-com-google-android-youtube.jpg (https://ibb.co/BVMm5VH)
https://i.ibb.co/tz5DZWg/Screenshot-20210319-002616.jpg (https://ibb.co/PM8gTfK)
https://i.ibb.co/JsFRQm0/Screenshot-20210415-123532.jpg (https://ibb.co/HHpDdB1)
https://i.ibb.co/y5pj8HH/Screenshot-20210823-102207.jpg (https://ibb.co/RPNwCRR)

According to a study from 2012 called "Afghanistan from a Y-chromosome perspective," the study from a sample size of 190 showed R1a1a-M198 to be the most dominant haplogroup in Pashtuns at 67.4%. In the north, it peaks at 50% while in the south, it peaks at 65.8%.[181] R1a-Z2125 occurs at a frequency of 40% in Pashtuns from Northern Afghanistan.[182] This subclade is also predominantly present among Tajik, Turkmen, Uzbek, and Bashkir ethnic groups,[183] as well as in some populations in the Caucasus and Iran.[184]

According to a Mitochondrial DNA analysis of four ethnic groups of Afghanistan, the majority of mtDNA among Afghan Pashtuns belongs to West Eurasian lineages, and share a greater affinity with West Eurasian and Central Asian populations rather than to populations of South Asia or East Asia.

A 2019 study on autosomal STR profiles of the populations of South and North Afghanistan states:[187]

"We observe an overall topology that reflects the general partitioning patterns seen in the MDS plot with the Afghan groups exhibiting close genetic affinities to Near Eastern groups"

The early precursors to modern-day Pashtuns may have been old Iranian tribes that spread throughout the eastern Iranian plateau.[81][82]

According to Yu. V. Gankovsky:[83]

"The Pashtuns began as a union of largely East-Iranian tribes which became the initial ethnic stratum of the Pashtun ethnogenesis, dates from the middle of the first millennium CE and is connected with the dissolution of the Epthalite (White Huns) confederacy. ... Of the contribution of the Epthalites (White Huns) to the ethnogenesis of the Pashtuns we find evidence in the ethnonym of the largest of the Pashtun tribe unions, the Abdali (Durrani after 1747) associated with the ethnic name of the Epthalites — Abdal. The Siah-posh, the Kafirs (Nuristanis) of the Hindu Kush, called all Pashtuns by a general name of Abdal still at the beginning of the 19th century."

— Gankvosky, History of Afganistan

"..major linguist Georg Morgenstierne has described Pashto as a Saka dialect and many others have observed the similarities between Pashto and other Saka languages as well, suggesting that the original Pashto-speakers might have been a Saka group.[96][97] Furthemore Pashto and Ossetian, another Scythian-descending language, share cognates in their vocabulary which other Eastern Iranian languages lack[98] Cheung suggests a common isogloss between Pashto and Ossetian which he explains by an undocumented Saka dialect being spoken close to reconstructed Old Pashto which was likely spoken north of the Oxus at that time.[99] "

https://i.ibb.co/n8JNdS0/220px-Saka-warrior-Termez-Achaeological-Museum.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)
https://i.ibb.co/yP8PMFG/Hadda-Types.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

Head of a saka warrior and heads of two males found I'm Hadda, jalalabad 3-4th century CE.

Strabo, the Greek geographer, in the Geographica (written between 43 BC to 23 AD) makes mention of the Pasiani (Πασιανοί), this has been identified with Pashtuns given that Pashto is an Eastern-Iranian language[115] and Pashtuns reside in the area[116] once termed Ariana.[117][118] Strabo states:[119]

"Most of the Scythians...each separate tribe has its peculiar name. All, or the greatest part of them, are nomades. The best known tribes are those who deprived the Greeks of Bactriana, the Asii, Pasiani, Tochari, and Sacarauli, who came from the country on the other side of the Iaxartes (Syr Darya)"

— Strabo, The Geography, Book XI, Chapter 8, Section 2

They resemble andronovo I think many kurds do too such blondish nordoid types i see also kurds often posting