Balkanic genetic study

[andre]

Cosmopolitanism at the Roman Danubian Frontier, Slavic Migrations, and the
Genomic Formation of Modern Balkan Peoples

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...211v1.full.pdf

The Roman Empire expanded through the Mediterranean shores and brought human mobility
and cosmopolitanism across this inland sea to an unprecedented scale. However, if this was also
common at the Empire frontiers remains undetermined. The Balkans and Danube River were of
strategic importance for the Romans acting as an East-West connection and as a defense line
against “barbarian” tribes. We generated genome-wide data from 70 ancient individuals from
present-day Serbia dated to the first millennium CE; including Viminacium, capital of Moesia
Superior province. Our analyses reveal large scale-movements from Anatolia during Imperial
rule, similar to the pattern observed in Rome, and cases of individual mobility from as far as
East Africa. Between ~250-500 CE, we detect gene-flow from Central/Northern Europe
harboring admixtures of Iron Age steppe groups. Tenth-century CE individuals harbored North-
Eastern European-related ancestry likely associated to Slavic-speakers, which contributed >20%
of the ancestry of today's Balkan people.





ID Location Y-DNA mtDNA
I15527 Viminacium, Pecine Necropolis R1b-U106 H30b1
I15528 Viminacium, Pecine Necropolis .. T1a1n
I15529 Viminacium, Pecine Necropolis J1,J-Z2215,J-Z2217,J-CTS1026,J-Z1828,J-Z18463,J-Z18471,J-BY94 H11a2
I15530 Viminacium, Pecine Necropolis .. K1a2a
I15531 Viminacium, Pecine Necropolis I1 H10a1
I15532 Viminacium, Pecine Necropolis T-L206,T-M70,T-L131 J2b1c
I15533 Viminacium, Pecine Necropolis R1a-M417,R-Z645 V1a1
I15534 Viminacium, Pecine Necropolis .. H5
I15535 Viminacium, Pecine Necropolis .. H1b
I15536 Viminacium, Pecine Necropolis .. U5a1j
I15486 Viminacium, Pirivoj Necropolis .. T2
I15490 Viminacium, Pirivoj Necropolis E-M78,E-L618,E-V13,E-Z1057,E-CTS1273 H6b
I15491 Viminacium, Pirivoj Necropolis H7
I15492 Viminacium, Pirivoj Necropolis R1b-U152,R-L2,R-Z258,R-Z367,R-L20 H7
I15493 Viminacium, Pirivoj Necropolis .. H8c
I15494 Viminacium, Pirivoj Necropolis .. H5a2
I15495 Viminacium, Pirivoj Necropolis E-V13,E-Z1057,E-CTS1273,E-BY3880,E-Z5017,E-Z5016,E-Y3762,E-CTS6377,E-CTS9320 H49
I15498 Viminacium, Pirivoj Necropolis H36
I15499 Viminacium, Pirivoj Necropolis E-M78,E-Z1902,E-V12,E-Y2863,E-FGC14377,E-FGC14378,E-V32 L2a1j
I15501 Viminacium, Pirivoj Necropolis .. J1c1
I15502 Viminacium, Pirivoj Necropolis E-Z830,E-PF1962,E-M123 U3a2a1
I15509 Viminacium, Pirivoj Necropolis .. I4b
I15510 Viminacium, Pirivoj Necropolis G-PF3148 H26a1
I15511 Viminacium, Pirivoj Necropolis .. H
I15512 Viminacium, Pirivoj Necropolis .. X2+225
I15514 Viminacium, Pirivoj Necropolis .. U4a2a
I15515 Viminacium, Pirivoj Necropolis R1b-Z2103 K1a3a
I15516 Viminacium, Pirivoj Necropolis G-P303 H13a1a1
I15517 Viminacium, Pirivoj Necropolis J2a-L26,J-PF5087,J-PF5160,J-L24,J-Y22662,J-L25,J-Z438,J-Z387,J-L70 HV
I15485 Viminacium, Rit Necropolis .. H
I15487 Viminacium, Rit Necropolis .. T1a
I15488 Viminacium, Rit Necropolis .. H41a
I15489 Viminacium, Rit Necropolis G-PF3148,G-PF3177,L91,G-Z6484,G-Z6284,G-Z6128,G-Y140837,G-Y140827 H
I15496 Viminacium, Rit Necropolis .. T2b+16362
I15497 Viminacium, Rit Necropolis .. J1c
I15500 Viminacium, Rit Necropolis .. R0a1a
I15504 Viminacium, Rit Necropolis E-M78,E-L618,E-V13,E-Z1057,E-CTS1273,E-BY3880 H47a
I15505 Viminacium, Rit Necropolis .. J1d1a1
I15506 Viminacium, Rit Necropolis .. HV9+152
I15507 Viminacium, Rit Necropolis E-V13,E-Z1057,E-CTS1273,E-BY3880 K1c2
I15508 Viminacium, Rit Necropolis .. W6
I15519 Viminacium, Rit Necropolis .. R0a2d
I15503 Viminacium, Vise Grobalja Necropolis .. U5a2c
I15513 Viminacium, Vise Grobalja Necropolis E-V13,E-Z1057,E-CTS1273,E-BY3880 H8c
I15518 Viminacium, Vise Grobalja Necropolis E-V13,E-Z1057,E-CTS1273 U2e1a1
I15520 Viminacium, Vise Grobalja Necropolis R1a-M417,R-Z645 U5b2b
I15521 Viminacium, Vise Grobalja Necropolis G-P303 H
I15522 Viminacium, Vise Grobalja Necropolis .. H
I15523 Viminacium, Vise Grobalja Necropolis .. H+152
I15524 Viminacium, Vise Grobalja Necropolis I2c-L596,I-Y16649,I-Y16419 HV9+152
I15525 Viminacium, Vise Grobalja Necropolis E-M78,E-L618,E-V13,E-Z1057,E-CTS1273 H13a1a1
I15526 Viminacium, Vise Grobalja Necropolis E-M123,E-M34,E-Z841,E-Z849,E-CTS1727,E-L791 H13a2b2
I15549 Mediana I1,I-Z58,I-Z59,I-CTS8647,Z60,Z140,Z141 H5b
I15550 Mediana .. H41a
I15544 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis E-V13,E-Z1057,E-CTS1273,E-BY3880 HV9
I15545 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis I1,I-Z58,I-Z59,I-CTS8647,Z60,Z140,Z141 H1
I15546 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis J2b2a-L283,J-Z622,J-Z600,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597 L2a1+143+16189 (16192)
I15547 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis J2b2a-L283 H+152
I15548 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis J2b2a-L283,J-Z585,J-Z615,J-Z597,J-Z638,J-Z1297,J-Z8421,J-Z631,J-Z1043 W+194
I15551 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis R1b-Z2103,R-Z2105 T1a
I15552 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis R1b-Z2103,R-M12149,R-Z2106,R-Z2108,R-Z2110,R-CTS7556,R-Y5592,R-CTS1450 H1c
I15553 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis E-V13,E-Z1057,E-CTS1273 T2b25
I15554 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis E-V13,E-Z1057,E-CTS1273,E-BY3880 H
I15555 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis G-P303,G-L140,G-PF3346,G-PF3345,G-CTS342,G-FGC12126 X2i+@225
I15556 Timacum Minus, Slog Necropolis .. H10d
I15537 Timacum Minus, Kuline Necropolis E-V13,E-Z1057,E-CTS1273,E-BY3880,E-Z5017,E-Z5016,E-Y3762 H13a2a
I15538 Timacum Minus, Kuline Necropolis R1b-P312,R-D99 H1e1a6
I15539 Timacum Minus, Kuline Necropolis R1b-P312,R-D99 H1e1a6,H1e1a6
I15540 Timacum Minus, Kuline Necropolis .. J1b1a1
I15541 Timacum Minus, Kuline Necropolis I2a1b-L621,I-CTS10936,I-S19848,I-CTS4002,I-CTS10228,I-Y3120 K1a4
I15542 Timacum Minus, Kuline Necropolis I2a1b-L621,I-CTS10936,I-S19848,I-CTS4002,I-CTS10228,I-Y3120 H9a
I15543 Timacum Minus, Kuline Necropolis J2-L26,J-Z6064,J-Z6055,J-Z6057,J-Y7013,J-Y7010 H1f+16093

[andre]

"Present-day Serbs, Croats
and the rest of central/northern Balkan populations yielded a similar ancestral composition as
the Kuline individuals, with approximately 50% Northeastern European-related ancestry
admixed with ancestry related to Iron Age native Balkan population (Figure 3), implying
substantial population continuity in the region over the last 1,000 years. This ancestry signal
significantly decreases in more southern groups, but it is still presents in populations from
mainland Greece (~30%) and even the Aegean islands (7-20%)"

[vbnetkhio]

Are they saying Only 20 percent Slavic admixture in South Slavs? It's either a misinterpretation of the data or they found some revolutionary samples.

[vbnetkhio]

"Present-day Serbs, Croats
and the rest of central/northern Balkan populations yielded a similar ancestral composition as
the Kuline individuals, with approximately 50% Northeastern European-related ancestry
admixed with ancestry related to Iron Age native Balkan population (Figure 3), implying
substantial population continuity in the region over the last 1,000 years. This ancestry signal
significantly decreases in more southern groups, but it is still presents in populations from
mainland Greece (~30%) and even the Aegean islands (7-20%)"

Oh ok, this is more like it.

[Jana]

Pathetic.

[Faklon]

Not sure what conclusions to make or evaluate the legitimacy but here's the lore.


Figure 1. PCA of West Eurasian genetic variability showing present-day individuals as
grey circles, published ancient groups as polygons and newly-reported ancient
individuals from Viminacium, Timacum Minus and Mediana as colored squares, from
A) 0-250 CE, B) 250-500 CE and C) 900 CE to present-day. This PCA is the zoom-in
version of Figure S7.

https://i.ibb.co/KWB8Gfp/New-Project-7.jpg

Figure 2. Fitting qpAdm models for the different ancestry clusters.

https://i.ibb.co/xJhKhdS/figure4.png

Figure 3. Proportions of Northeastern European-related ancestry (in black) for presentday Balkans populations. 10th century CE Kuline individuals are indicated with a red
outline.

https://i.ibb.co/k8ZsKYz/figure5.png

Figure 4. Graphical summary of the genetic findings. A) 0-250 CE, B) 250-500 CE and
C) After 550 CE

https://i.ibb.co/Jy21zG8/figure6.png

[Faklon]

The Anatolian and Northern European rhetoric maybe makes some historical sense for the Crisis of the Third Century, they possibly brought Anatolian troops to defend against the Goths who may also have some contribution. They however place these admixtures in 0-250 AD where I see no apparent reason.

[Ion Basescul]

Supplementary Table 2. Information about newly reported present-day Serbs genotyped with the Human Origins array


<tbody>
Y-chr
Place of origin
Region
Country
Coordinates of place of origin


R1b-U106>Z9
Bački Maglić
Bačka
Serbia
45° 21′ 45.94″ N, 19° 31′ 54.12″ E


I2-Y3120>A1328
Bođani, Bač
Bačka
Serbia
45° 23′ 10.8″ N, 19° 6′ 15.6″ E


R1a-M458>YP417
Čitluk, Kruševac
Rasina
Serbia
43° 35′ 18″ N, 21° 16′ 25.2″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Donja Bejašnica, Prokuplje
Toplica
Serbia
43° 11′ 30″ N, 21° 27′ 6″ E


E-V13>A18844
Dragolj, Gornji Milanovac
Šumadija
Serbia
44° 13′ 0″ N, 20° 27′ 0″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Gornji Kozji Dol, Trgovište
Vranjsko Ponišavlje
Serbia
42° 19′ 23.88″ N, 22° 6′ 24.12″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Guncati, Knić
Šumadija
Serbia
43° 53′ 2.4″ N, 20° 39′ 28.8″ E


E-V13>Z16988
Jabučje, Lajkovac
Kolubara
Serbia
43° 59′ 56.07″ N, 20° 59′ 29.11″ E


R1a-Z280>Y2902
Jovac, Vladičin Han
Vranjsko Ponišavlje
Serbia
42° 38′ 39.12″ N, 22° 0′ 11.16″ E


T-L131
Lešnica, Loznica
Mačva
Serbia
44° 39′ 5.4″ N, 19° 18′ 21.6″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Merdželat, Svrljig
Ponišavlje
Serbia
43° 25′ 19.8″ N, 22° 5′ 12″ E


E-M81
Neuzina, Sečanj
Zapadni Banat
Serbia
45° 20′ 40.74″ N, 20° 42′ 45.79″ E


Q-L245>BZ3000
Ostra, Čačak
Šumadija
Serbia
43° 54′ 20.16″ N, 20° 29′ 36.96″ E


E-V13>A24066
Pečenjevce, Leskovac
Jablanica
Serbia
43° 6′ 1.2″ N, 21° 55′ 0″ E


J2-L283>PH1602
Rusna, Doljevac
Ponišavlje
Serbia
43° 11′ 24″ N, 21° 53′ 31.2″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Supovac, Niš
Ponišavlje
Serbia
43° 23′ 12″ N, 21° 45′ 18″ E


G2-L497>Y128028
Veliko Orašje, Velika Plana
Šumadija
Serbia
44° 22′ 8.11″ N, 21° 5′ 9.6″ E


E-V13
Viteževo, Žabari
Braničevo
Serbia
44° 17′ 24.6″ N, 21° 15′ 5.4″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Zablaće, Čačak
Stari Vlah
Serbia
43° 50′ 48.12″ N, 20° 27′ 0″ E


T-Y11151
Vrutok, Gostivar
Zapadna Makedonija
North Macedonia
41° 46′ 6.96″ N, 20° 50′ 20.76″ E


R1a-M420
Barlovo, Kuršumlija
Toplica
Montenegro
42° 44′ 1.39″ N, 19° 47′ 30.25″ E


J2-M205>Y22059
Škaljar, Kotor
Zeta
Montenegro
42° 25′ 4.2″ N, 18° 45′ 35.4″ E


E-V13>Y37092
Berane
Brda
Montenegro
42° 50′ 33.72″ N, 19° 52′ 15.6″ E


E-V13>BY165837
Medun, Podgorica
Brda
Montenegro
42° 28′ 18.44″ N, 19° 21′ 47.89″ E


I1-P109>FGC22045
Pavino Polje, Bijelo Polje
Brda
Montenegro
43° 8′ 15″ N, 19° 37′ 43″ E


J2-L283>Z638
Predobrđe, Kolašin
Brda
Montenegro
42° 43' 32" N, 19° 25' 42" E


J1-Z18463>ZS3128
Šekular, Andrijevica
Brda
Montenegro
42° 44′ 1.39″ N, 19° 47′ 30.25″ E


I2-Y3120*
Đevraske, Kistanje
Dalmacija
Croatia
43° 57′ 11.12″ N, 15° 51′ 3.82″ E


E-V13
Grabovac Banski, Petrinja
Banija
Croatia
45° 19′ 50.74″ N, 16° 14′ 18.17″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Plaški
Lika
Croatia
45° 4′ 53.05″ N, 15° 21′ 44.59″ E


I2-Y3120
Smrdelje, Kistanje
Dalmacija
Croatia
43° 56′ 1.4″ N, 15° 54′ 3.86″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Trpinja
Zapadni Srem
Croatia
45° 25′ 9″ N, 18° 53′ 57.09″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Banja Luka
Bosanska Krajina
Bosnia and Herzegovina
44° 46′ 19.74″ N, 17° 11′ 27.28″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Pale
Istočna Bosna
Bosnia and Herzegovina
43° 48′ 45.36″ N, 18° 34′ 5.59″ E


J1-ZS4393>ZS9949
Poplat, Stolac
Hercegovina
Bosnia and Herzegovina
43° 2′ 25.43″ N, 18° 0′ 1.37″ E


E-M35 v I2-M223
Rilić, Kupres
Bosanska Krajina
Bosnia and Herzegovina
43° 54′ 46.8″ N, 17° 15′ 50.4″ E


J2-M205>Y22059
Rogatica
Istočna Bosna
Bosnia and Herzegovina
43° 47′ 55.82″ N, 19° 0′ 13.61″ E

</tbody>

[Ion Basescul]

<center>
<tbody>
Balkan
Present-day
populations
Balkans Iron Age
cluster
SD
Russia_Ingria_IA
SD


Albanian

0.753

0.022

0.247


0.022



Bulgarian

0.622

0.021

0.378


0.021



Cretan

1.004

0.034

-0.004


0.034



Croatian

0.458

0.019

0.542


0.019



Greek_Cyclades

0.989

0.027

0.011


0.027



Greek_Dodecanese

1.211

0.039

-0.211


0.039



Greek_Macedonia

0.763

0.019

0.237


0.019



Greek_Peloponnese

0.866

0.024

0.134


0.024



Hungarian

0.372

0.018

0.628


0.018



Romanian

0.567

0.020

0.433


0.020



Kuline 10th c. CE

0.569

0.026

0.431


0.026



Serbian

0.514

0.017

0.486


0.017


</tbody>
</center>

[Ion Basescul]

Table ST11. Present-day Balkan two-way modeling with Greek_Empuries and present-day Russians as sources.

<center>
<tbody>
Balkan
Present-day
populations
Greek_Empuries
SD
Russian
SD


Albanian
0.624
0.021
0.376
0.021


Romanian
0.451
0.017
0.549
0.017


Bulgarian
0.507
0.017
0.493
0.017


Greek_Cyclades
0.811
0.024
0.189
0.024


Greek_Dodecanese
0.943
0.028
0.057
0.028


Greek_Macedonia
0.633
0.018
0.367
0.018


Greek_Peloponnese
0.710
0.021
0.290
0.021

</tbody>
</center>

[Ion Basescul]

Good resolution


https://i.ibb.co/74CYmjB/image.png

[vbnetkhio]

How much time is there usually between the preprint and publishing of a study, does anybody know?

[bained]

Nice one

[Jana]

Hoping for Iron Age samples from Croatia, Slovenia and Serbia to be available soon on G25 and gedmatch.

[Jana]

Btw, modeling with modern Russians and even Mordovians (!), as Slavic proxy is very poor and unprofessional conduct, especially when we know early Slavs were not like Russians. And especially not like Uralic Mordovians.....seeing this kind of low level even at Harvard is pretty sad, to be honest.

I also don't agree at all for this 2-way modeling with Empiures samples which are very inadequate for anything north of Greece. Obviously SE Europeans aren't simple 2-way populations mix.
Thus NE European/Slavic affinity in eg. Albanians is heavily inflated, due to wrong choice of proxies in the model.

These 10th century Serbian samples look like Slavs from Timok tribe, heavily admixed with Thracians.

All in all, another lazy and disappointing study. Modeling they do is just awful. It's frustrating to know these people do it worse than amateurs here.

[rothaer]

Btw, modeling with modern Russians and even Mordovians (!), as Slavic proxy is very poor and unprofessional conduct, especially when we know early Slavs were not like Russians. And especially not like Uralic Mordovians.....seeing this kind of low level even at Harvard is pretty sad, to be honest.

I also don't agree at all for this 2-way modeling with Empiures samples which are very inadequate for anything north of Greece. Obviously SE Europeans aren't simple 2-way populations mix.
Thus NE European/Slavic affinity in eg. Albanians is heavily inflated, due to wrong choice of proxies in the model.

These 10th century Serbian samples look like Slavs from Timok tribe, heavily admixed with Thracians.

All in all, another lazy and disappointing study. Modeling they do is just awful. It's frustrating to know these people do it worse than amateurs here.

These two-way modelings in the year 2021 are indeed like a bad joke. I also well remember how I once with disbelief saw the simple modelling with just "northern-like" and "southern-like" in the academic papers dealing with the cemetries of Szólád and Collegno.

Actually a lot of "amateurs" here know more due to dealing with this subject for years. It's then not totally surprising that the level of academic papers in that respect is notably lower.

Eventually, amateur just means that someone not regularly gets paid for his work.

[vbnetkhio]

Btw, modeling with modern Russians and even Mordovians (!), as Slavic proxy is very poor and unprofessional conduct, especially when we know early Slavs were not like Russians. And especially not like Uralic Mordovians.....seeing this kind of low level even at Harvard is pretty sad, to be honest.

I also don't agree at all for this 2-way modeling with Empiures samples which are very inadequate for anything north of Greece. Obviously SE Europeans aren't simple 2-way populations mix.
Thus NE European/Slavic affinity in eg. Albanians is heavily inflated, due to wrong choice of proxies in the model.

These 10th century Serbian samples look like Slavs from Timok tribe, heavily admixed with Thracians.

All in all, another lazy and disappointing study. Modeling they do is just awful. It's frustrating to know these people do it worse than amateurs here.
I don't think it's amateurism.
The problem is that studies have to follow some strict rules and use formal software (qpadm) which often rejects models because of snp count or different testing chips. I'm guessing that's why they used those modern samples.

In studies you can often read some illogical and controversial theories, but not some obvious ones because they lack the exact formal data to support them.

This study is a huge step forward, because most others don't even acknowledge Slavic influence in Europe, that's just one of the reasons. And of course the raw data it provides is irreplacable.

[rothaer]

The problem is that studies have to follow some strict rules and use formal software (qpadm) (...)

I agree. They follow fixated rules that are far behind what in the meantime is possible and suitable. And the results then get somewhat kindergarten-like.

These paid professionals are often more craftsman than mind-workers.

[Jana]

I don't think it's amateurism.
The problem is that studies have to follow some strict rules and use formal software (qpadm) which often rejects models because of snp count or different testing chips. I'm guessing that's why they used those modern samples.

In studies you can often read some illogical and controversial theories, but not some obvious ones because they lack the exact formal data to support them.

This study is a huge step forward, because most others don't even acknowledge Slavic influence in Europe, that's just one of the reasons. And of course the raw data it provides is irreplacable.

It is bad, just because other studies are even worse it doesn't make this acceptable. I agree raw data they provide is very valuable, but nothing more than that.
Why use Russians or Mordovians and not Belarusians, Ukrainians or even Lithuanians? None of early Slavic samples we have were Russian like let alone Mordovian (who are sth like 5-7% Siberian)

Also senseless to use "Iron Age Greek" (which isn't even confirmed to be typical genetically for that era) to model northern Balkan populations.
They extracted tons of iron age samples in this very study yet they didn't use them. Neither did they attempt 3-way modeling with Imperial Roman like samples.

[Jana]

<center>
<tbody>
Balkan
Present-day
populations
Balkans Iron Age
cluster
SD
Russia_Ingria_IA
SD


Albanian

0.753

0.022

0.247


0.022



Bulgarian

0.622

0.021

0.378


0.021



Cretan

1.004

0.034

-0.004


0.034



Croatian

0.458

0.019

0.542


0.019



Greek_Cyclades

0.989

0.027

0.011


0.027



Greek_Dodecanese

1.211

0.039

-0.211


0.039



Greek_Macedonia

0.763

0.019

0.237


0.019



Greek_Peloponnese

0.866

0.024

0.134


0.024



Hungarian

0.372

0.018

0.628


0.018



Romanian

0.567

0.020

0.433


0.020



Kuline 10th c. CE

0.569

0.026

0.431


0.026



Serbian

0.514

0.017

0.486


0.017


</tbody>
</center>

Also look at this. At least it uses Balkan IA in this model. But Russian Ingria? Yes indeed, this area close to Finland was always known for proto Slavic genetics xD
Even though these Ingrian samples are not that bad, they are modeled like this:

Target: RUS_Ingria_IA
Distance: 2.4569% / 0.02456939 | R2P

86.8 Lithuanian_PZ
13.2 Russian_Pinega

Pinega Russians are heavily Uralic, but still these samples seem overwhelmingly Balto-Slavic like at least. Yet I would guess it more like early Finnic like genome.

So let's say this also bad model is just slightly more acceptable than one with Greek samples and modern Russians/Mordovians. In academic papers you expect more however.

[vbnetkhio]

It is bad, just because other studies are even worse it doesn't make this acceptable. I agree raw data they provide is very valuable, but nothing more than that.
Why use Russians or Mordovians and not Belarusians, Ukrainians or even Lithuanians? None of early Slavic samples we have were Russian like let alone Mordovian (who are sth like 5-7% Siberian)

Also senseless to use "Iron Age Greek" (which isn't even confirmed to be typical genetically for that era) to model northern Balkan populations.
They extracted tons of iron age samples in this very study yet they didn't use them. Neither did they attempt 3-way modeling with Imperial Roman like samples.

Again, i'm sure the athuors are aware of all this, but those more logical models were simply rejected by qpAdm with the outgroups they used.

You might expect academic studies to have the deepest insights, based on all available data, etc, but that's just not what they are for, that's what passionate amateurs do. And i don't seee how it could change in the near future.

Studies have to follow these strict formalities , in order to be 100% objective, sadly the result is often the opposite.

This is afaik the first study ever which acknowledges Slavic influence, i2-din as a Slavic haplogroup, attempts a modelling of south Slavs and measuring of proto-slavic ancestry in them.

For example, One of the studies on the Hungarian conquerors determined southeast Poland as the most likely place of origin for i2-din, but they couldn't say it's Slavic because of a lack of formal data. Many such examples.

[Ion Basescul]

So considering that South Slavs, bar Bulgarians and Macedonians, migrated to the Balkans around the 8-9th centuries, can we assume that the Kuline samples are the first kind of Serbs in the Balkans? Fresh off the boat (horse cart), so to speak.

[Ibericus]

Just wanted to point out they made a typo two times in the PCA, writing "Ibreia" instead of Iberia.

[CommonSense]

Supplementary Table 2. Information about newly reported present-day Serbs genotyped with the Human Origins array


<tbody>
Y-chr
Place of origin
Region
Country
Coordinates of place of origin


R1b-U106>Z9
Bački Maglić
Bačka
Serbia
45° 21′ 45.94″ N, 19° 31′ 54.12″ E


I2-Y3120>A1328
Bođani, Bač
Bačka
Serbia
45° 23′ 10.8″ N, 19° 6′ 15.6″ E


R1a-M458>YP417
Čitluk, Kruševac
Rasina
Serbia
43° 35′ 18″ N, 21° 16′ 25.2″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Donja Bejašnica, Prokuplje
Toplica
Serbia
43° 11′ 30″ N, 21° 27′ 6″ E


E-V13>A18844
Dragolj, Gornji Milanovac
Šumadija
Serbia
44° 13′ 0″ N, 20° 27′ 0″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Gornji Kozji Dol, Trgovište
Vranjsko Ponišavlje
Serbia
42° 19′ 23.88″ N, 22° 6′ 24.12″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Guncati, Knić
Šumadija
Serbia
43° 53′ 2.4″ N, 20° 39′ 28.8″ E


E-V13>Z16988
Jabučje, Lajkovac
Kolubara
Serbia
43° 59′ 56.07″ N, 20° 59′ 29.11″ E


R1a-Z280>Y2902
Jovac, Vladičin Han
Vranjsko Ponišavlje
Serbia
42° 38′ 39.12″ N, 22° 0′ 11.16″ E


T-L131
Lešnica, Loznica
Mačva
Serbia
44° 39′ 5.4″ N, 19° 18′ 21.6″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Merdželat, Svrljig
Ponišavlje
Serbia
43° 25′ 19.8″ N, 22° 5′ 12″ E


E-M81
Neuzina, Sečanj
Zapadni Banat
Serbia
45° 20′ 40.74″ N, 20° 42′ 45.79″ E


Q-L245>BZ3000
Ostra, Čačak
Šumadija
Serbia
43° 54′ 20.16″ N, 20° 29′ 36.96″ E


E-V13>A24066
Pečenjevce, Leskovac
Jablanica
Serbia
43° 6′ 1.2″ N, 21° 55′ 0″ E


J2-L283>PH1602
Rusna, Doljevac
Ponišavlje
Serbia
43° 11′ 24″ N, 21° 53′ 31.2″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Supovac, Niš
Ponišavlje
Serbia
43° 23′ 12″ N, 21° 45′ 18″ E


G2-L497>Y128028
Veliko Orašje, Velika Plana
Šumadija
Serbia
44° 22′ 8.11″ N, 21° 5′ 9.6″ E


E-V13
Viteževo, Žabari
Braničevo
Serbia
44° 17′ 24.6″ N, 21° 15′ 5.4″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Zablaće, Čačak
Stari Vlah
Serbia
43° 50′ 48.12″ N, 20° 27′ 0″ E


T-Y11151
Vrutok, Gostivar
Zapadna Makedonija
North Macedonia
41° 46′ 6.96″ N, 20° 50′ 20.76″ E


R1a-M420
Barlovo, Kuršumlija
Toplica
Montenegro
42° 44′ 1.39″ N, 19° 47′ 30.25″ E


J2-M205>Y22059
Škaljar, Kotor
Zeta
Montenegro
42° 25′ 4.2″ N, 18° 45′ 35.4″ E


E-V13>Y37092
Berane
Brda
Montenegro
42° 50′ 33.72″ N, 19° 52′ 15.6″ E


E-V13>BY165837
Medun, Podgorica
Brda
Montenegro
42° 28′ 18.44″ N, 19° 21′ 47.89″ E


I1-P109>FGC22045
Pavino Polje, Bijelo Polje
Brda
Montenegro
43° 8′ 15″ N, 19° 37′ 43″ E


J2-L283>Z638
Predobrđe, Kolašin
Brda
Montenegro
42° 43' 32" N, 19° 25' 42" E


J1-Z18463>ZS3128
Šekular, Andrijevica
Brda
Montenegro
42° 44′ 1.39″ N, 19° 47′ 30.25″ E


I2-Y3120*
Đevraske, Kistanje
Dalmacija
Croatia
43° 57′ 11.12″ N, 15° 51′ 3.82″ E


E-V13
Grabovac Banski, Petrinja
Banija
Croatia
45° 19′ 50.74″ N, 16° 14′ 18.17″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Plaški
Lika
Croatia
45° 4′ 53.05″ N, 15° 21′ 44.59″ E


I2-Y3120
Smrdelje, Kistanje
Dalmacija
Croatia
43° 56′ 1.4″ N, 15° 54′ 3.86″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Trpinja
Zapadni Srem
Croatia
45° 25′ 9″ N, 18° 53′ 57.09″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Banja Luka
Bosanska Krajina
Bosnia and Herzegovina
44° 46′ 19.74″ N, 17° 11′ 27.28″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Pale
Istočna Bosna
Bosnia and Herzegovina
43° 48′ 45.36″ N, 18° 34′ 5.59″ E


J1-ZS4393>ZS9949
Poplat, Stolac
Hercegovina
Bosnia and Herzegovina
43° 2′ 25.43″ N, 18° 0′ 1.37″ E


E-M35 v I2-M223
Rilić, Kupres
Bosanska Krajina
Bosnia and Herzegovina
43° 54′ 46.8″ N, 17° 15′ 50.4″ E


J2-M205>Y22059
Rogatica
Istočna Bosna
Bosnia and Herzegovina
43° 47′ 55.82″ N, 19° 0′ 13.61″ E

</tbody>

The one outlier on the PCA who almost clusters with Albos is almost certainly that fellow from Macedonia. All others plot within the normal Serbian range, considering they are people from various different regions.

[CommonSense]

Btw, modeling with modern Russians and even Mordovians (!), as Slavic proxy is very poor and unprofessional conduct, especially when we know early Slavs were not like Russians. And especially not like Uralic Mordovians.....seeing this kind of low level even at Harvard is pretty sad, to be honest.

I also don't agree at all for this 2-way modeling with Empiures samples which are very inadequate for anything north of Greece. Obviously SE Europeans aren't simple 2-way populations mix.
Thus NE European/Slavic affinity in eg. Albanians is heavily inflated, due to wrong choice of proxies in the model.

These 10th century Serbian samples look like Slavs from Timok tribe, heavily admixed with Thracians.

All in all, another lazy and disappointing study. Modeling they do is just awful. It's frustrating to know these people do it worse than amateurs here.

Why do you think it's inflated? Most models we ourselves used also gave them around 25% Early Slavic ancestry. This just confirmed what we already knew.

As a side note, don't you find it interesting how two individuals from Iberia of all places were found in a 10th century Eastern Serbian tomb? I think they must have been some sort of mercenaries.

[Ion Basescul]

The one outlier on the PCA who almost clusters with Albos is almost certainly that fellow from Macedonia. All others plot within the normal Serbian range, considering they are people from various different regions.

I'm more interested in why most of the Croats here are more Southern than the Romanian sample from Alba.

This is him on K13 and 7 out of 10 Croats are more Southern than him on their PCA, while 2 are similar. Only one plots deep with Hungarians, like the current averages.

<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">
<colgroup><col style="width: 68px"><col width="39"><col width="66"><col width="73"><col width="63"><col width="55"><col width="78"><col width="70"><col width="54"><col width="74"><col width="60"><col width="74"><col width="80"></colgroup><tbody>
N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan


26.75
28.14
17.13
9.94
11.75
2.41
0.27
0
0.77
1.92
0.93
0
0

</tbody>
</google-sheets-html-origin>
These are the Croatian averages on K13

<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">
<colgroup><col style="width: 100px"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"></colgroup><tbody>

N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan


Croat
28.1
33.15
15.02
7.76
12.05
1.4
0.49
0.28
0.59
0.54
0.38
0.12
0.1


Croat_East
26.84
34.6
14.13
8.26
12.31
1.43
0.22
0.12
1.08
0.68
0.3
0.01
0.01


Croat_North
30.06
34.35
14.42
7.05
10.1
1.33
0.54
0.31
0.52
0.61
0.4
0.16
0.14


Croat_South
26.36
31.83
15.92
8.38
13.6
1.47
0.5
0.28
0.56
0.47
0.37
0.12
0.11


Croat_West
28.53
31.6
15.24
7.61
13.31
1.38
0.61
0.38
0.36
0.38
0.4
0.13
0.07

</tbody>
</google-sheets-html-origin>

[CommonSense]

I'm more interested in why most of the Croats here are more Southern than the Romanian sample from Alba.

This is him on K13 and 7 out of 10 Croats are more Southern than him on their PCA, while 2 are similar. Only one plots deep with Hungarians, like the current averages.

<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">
<colgroup><col style="width: 68px"><col width="39"><col width="66"><col width="73"><col width="63"><col width="55"><col width="78"><col width="70"><col width="54"><col width="74"><col width="60"><col width="74"><col width="80"></colgroup><tbody>
N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan


26.75
28.14
17.13
9.94
11.75
2.41
0.27
0
0.77
1.92
0.93
0
0

</tbody>
</google-sheets-html-origin>
These are the Croatian averages on K13

<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">
<colgroup><col style="width: 100px"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"></colgroup><tbody>

N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan


Croat
28.1
33.15
15.02
7.76
12.05
1.4
0.49
0.28
0.59
0.54
0.38
0.12
0.1


Croat_East
26.84
34.6
14.13
8.26
12.31
1.43
0.22
0.12
1.08
0.68
0.3
0.01
0.01


Croat_North
30.06
34.35
14.42
7.05
10.1
1.33
0.54
0.31
0.52
0.61
0.4
0.16
0.14


Croat_South
26.36
31.83
15.92
8.38
13.6
1.47
0.5
0.28
0.56
0.47
0.37
0.12
0.11


Croat_West
28.53
31.6
15.24
7.61
13.31
1.38
0.61
0.38
0.36
0.38
0.4
0.13
0.07

</tbody>
</google-sheets-html-origin>

Actually his result seems like that of a normal Western Balkanite. But if he's one of the more northern-plotting ones, that would imply all the other Balkan samples are soutern-shifted compared to their respective ethnicity! That's highly unusual indeed. Can you post the K13 for all the present-day samples they used?

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Btw, modeling with modern Russians and even Mordovians (!), as Slavic proxy is very poor and unprofessional conduct, especially when we know early Slavs were not like Russians. And especially not like Uralic Mordovians.....seeing this kind of low level even at Harvard is pretty sad, to be honest.

I also don't agree at all for this 2-way modeling with Empiures samples which are very inadequate for anything north of Greece. Obviously SE Europeans aren't simple 2-way populations mix.
Thus NE European/Slavic affinity in eg. Albanians is heavily inflated, due to wrong choice of proxies in the model.

These 10th century Serbian samples look like Slavs from Timok tribe, heavily admixed with Thracians.

All in all, another lazy and disappointing study. Modeling they do is just awful. It's frustrating to know these people do it worse than amateurs here.

New regions and countries were even created in the study, such as "Ibreia" and "Hunagry" :cool:

[XenophobicPrussian]

Roman Empire and Byzantium were seemingly ruled by ancient Angela Merkels.

[Jana]

I'm more interested in why most of the Croats here are more Southern than the Romanian sample from Alba.

This is him on K13 and 7 out of 10 Croats are more Southern than him on their PCA, while 2 are similar. Only one plots deep with Hungarians, like the current averages.

They are obviously heavily unrepresentative. Would be interested in information where they are from.

[Jana]

Why do you think it's inflated? Most models we ourselves used also gave them around 25% Early Slavic ancestry. This just confirmed what we already knew.

You're right, I misread it at 37% :P Cca. 25% Slavic sounds okay.


As a side note, don't you find it interesting how two individuals from Iberia of all places were found in a 10th century Eastern Serbian tomb? I think they must have been some sort of mercenaries.

I do! Very interesting indeed :)

Also interesting that Germanics from Serbia seem to have somewhat of Scythian admix. That would also make sense if they were Goths who came from Ukraine.

[Ion Basescul]

Actually his result seems like that of a normal Western Balkanite. But if he's one of the more northern-plotting ones, that would imply all the other Balkan samples are soutern-shifted compared to their respective ethnicity! That's highly unusual indeed. Can you post the K13 for all the present-day samples they used?

So unless I suck at counting, I can see that they used 8 out of the available 10 samples from 5x Horea (Alba, Transylvania) and 5x Tismana (Gorj, Wallachia).
I confirmed that with them already.

https://i.ibb.co/BBt8Q5B/image.png

These are them in K13. I assume that the one I shared above is the sample in question, because there aren't others who are more Northern than him in this dataset.

<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">
<tbody>
ID
N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan
Northern
Southern
EastAsian
Indian
African


A306, Alba (Horea)
26.75
28.14
17.13
9.94
11.75
2.41
0.27
0
0.77
1.92
0.93
0
0
54.89
41.23
2.69
0.27
0


A325, Alba (Horea)
22.63
26.49
16.79
11.52
20.83
0.83
0
0.28
0.37
0
0.26
0
0
49.12
49.97
0.65
0
0


A343, Alba (Horea)
23.93
24.30
20.37
11.76
17.05
0
0
0
0
1.05
1.08
0
0.46
48.23
49.18
1.05
0
0.46


A362, Alba (Horea)
24.37
25.88
18.06
10.39
17.43
0.22
0
2.47
0.72
0.46
0
0
0
50.25
46.1
3.65
0
0


A374, Alba (Horea)
25.19
23.82
18.28
11.80
15.18
0.40
1.58
0
1.49
0.87
1.28
0
0.10
49.01
45.66
2.36
1.58
0.10


G408, Gorj (Tismana)
23.34
26.95
17.68
8.86
17.09
1.97
0
3.24
0
0
0
0
0.86
50.29
45.6
3.24
0
0.86


G421, Gorj (Tismana)
27.16
20.52
20.98
9.52
17.36
1.60
0
0.03
1.33
0.06
0.92
0.52
0
47.68
49.98
1.42
0
0


G428, Gorj (Tismana)
26.46
23.90
17.86
9.21
19.32
1.44
0.11
1.34
0
0
0.36
0
0
50.36
47.83
1.34
0.11
0


G429, Gorj (Tismana)
21.93
25.87
19.17
11.21
15.71
0.50
4.10
0
1.43
0.02
0
0
0.05
47.8
46.59
1.45
4.10
0.05


G434, Gorj (Tismana)
29.73
20.75
17.72
7.05
16.40
1.93
2.81
1.67
0.23
0
0.25
1.48
0
50.48
44.58
1.9
2.81
0

</tbody>
</google-sheets-html-origin>

[vbnetkhio]

So considering that South Slavs, bar Bulgarians and Macedonians, migrated to the Balkans around the 8-9th centuries, can we assume that the Kuline samples are the first kind of Serbs in the Balkans? Fresh off the boat (horse cart), so to speak.

These aren't Serbs tribally speaking, this area was settled by the Timochani and Branichevtsi Slavic tribes, likely in the first wave of Slavic settlement, in the 6th century from today's Romania.

These areas weren't conquered by Serbia until the 1200s, and i'm not sure the very site of Kuline was ever a part of Serbia until the 1800s, it was either Bulgarian or at the very Serbian/Bulgarian border.

https://youtu.be/0YQFOsZkoMI

Modern Serbs from this area should be a mix of these tribes and later newcomers from Kosovo, also some Romanian ancestry. They look autosomally like average Serbs from what i've seen.

Their results in the study are a bit weird, so it's hard to bring any conclusions until we get the raw data. On the pca they occupy the same area as Serbs, yet according to their modelling both modern Serbs and Bulgarians are 50% Slavic, and these samples are 44%.

[vbnetkhio]

I'm more interested in why most of the Croats here are more Southern than the Romanian sample from Alba.

This is him on K13 and 7 out of 10 Croats are more Southern than him on their PCA, while 2 are similar. Only one plots deep with Hungarians, like the current averages.

<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">
<colgroup><col style="width: 68px"><col width="39"><col width="66"><col width="73"><col width="63"><col width="55"><col width="78"><col width="70"><col width="54"><col width="74"><col width="60"><col width="74"><col width="80"></colgroup><tbody>
N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan


26.75
28.14
17.13
9.94
11.75
2.41
0.27
0
0.77
1.92
0.93
0
0

</tbody>
</google-sheets-html-origin>
These are the Croatian averages on K13

<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">
<colgroup><col style="width: 100px"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"><col width="100"></colgroup><tbody>

N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan


Croat
28.1
33.15
15.02
7.76
12.05
1.4
0.49
0.28
0.59
0.54
0.38
0.12
0.1


Croat_East
26.84
34.6
14.13
8.26
12.31
1.43
0.22
0.12
1.08
0.68
0.3
0.01
0.01


Croat_North
30.06
34.35
14.42
7.05
10.1
1.33
0.54
0.31
0.52
0.61
0.4
0.16
0.14


Croat_South
26.36
31.83
15.92
8.38
13.6
1.47
0.5
0.28
0.56
0.47
0.37
0.12
0.11


Croat_West
28.53
31.6
15.24
7.61
13.31
1.38
0.61
0.38
0.36
0.38
0.4
0.13
0.07

</tbody>
</google-sheets-html-origin>

These are probably the Croats from Split from the Reich lab dataset, i think i posted their k13 long ago.

[CommonSense]

So unless I suck at counting, I can see that they used 8 out of the available 10 samples from 5x Horea (Wallachia) and 5x Tismana (Alba).
I confirmed that with them already.

https://i.ibb.co/BBt8Q5B/image.png

These are them in K13. I assume that the one I shared above is the sample in question, because there aren't others who are more Northern than him in this dataset.

<google-sheets-html-origin style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: medium;">
<tbody>
ID
N_Atlantic
Baltic
West_Med
West_Asian
East_Med
Red_Sea
South_Asian
East_Asian
Siberian
Amerindian
Oceanian
NE_African
Sub-Saharan
Northern
Southern
EastAsian
Indian
African


A306, Alba (Horea)
26.75
28.14
17.13
9.94
11.75
2.41
0.27
0
0.77
1.92
0.93
0
0
54.89
41.23
2.69
0.27
0


A325, Alba (Horea)
22.63
26.49
16.79
11.52
20.83
0.83
0
0.28
0.37
0
0.26
0
0
49.12
49.97
0.65
0
0


A343, Alba (Horea)
23.93
24.30
20.37
11.76
17.05
0
0
0
0
1.05
1.08
0
0.46
48.23
49.18
1.05
0
0.46


A362, Alba (Horea)
24.37
25.88
18.06
10.39
17.43
0.22
0
2.47
0.72
0.46
0
0
0
50.25
46.1
3.65
0
0


A374, Alba (Horea)
25.19
23.82
18.28
11.80
15.18
0.40
1.58
0
1.49
0.87
1.28
0
0.10
49.01
45.66
2.36
1.58
0.10


G408, Gorj (Tismana)
23.34
26.95
17.68
8.86
17.09
1.97
0
3.24
0
0
0
0
0.86
50.29
45.6
3.24
0
0.86


G421, Gorj (Tismana)
27.16
20.52
20.98
9.52
17.36
1.60
0
0.03
1.33
0.06
0.92
0.52
0
47.68
49.98
1.42
0
0


G428, Gorj (Tismana)
26.46
23.90
17.86
9.21
19.32
1.44
0.11
1.34
0
0
0.36
0
0
50.36
47.83
1.34
0.11
0


G429, Gorj (Tismana)
21.93
25.87
19.17
11.21
15.71
0.50
4.10
0
1.43
0.02
0
0
0.05
47.8
46.59
1.45
4.10
0.05


G434, Gorj (Tismana)
29.73
20.75
17.72
7.05
16.40
1.93
2.81
1.67
0.23
0
0.25
1.48
0
50.48
44.58
1.9
2.81
0

</tbody>
</google-sheets-html-origin>

He doesn't seem that distant from the other Romanian samples, yet according to the PCA they are intbetween him and the Albanian individuals!? I honestly think they simply made a mistake while designing the PCA, but we can't know that for sure until we see the Serbian and Croatian samples as well.

[Ion Basescul]

These aren't Serbs tribally speaking, this area was settled by the Timochani and Branichevtsi Slavic tribes, likely in the first wave of Slavic settlement, in the 6th century from today's Romania.

Makes sense why Romanians are closest to them. If we had more samples from Wallachia, I'm sure they would have extended to the Southern cline too, to overlap with all of the Kuline samples.

[Ion Basescul]

He doesn't seem that distant from the other Romanian samples, yet according to the PCA they are intbetween him and the Albanian individuals!? I honestly think they simply made a mistake while designing the PCA, but we can't know that for sure until we see the Serbian and Croatian samples as well.

Yes, but the East Med type of ancestry is significantly lower. Maybe the PCA is very sensitive to that.

[Ion Basescul]

It's frustrating to know these people do it worse than amateurs here.

For them it's routine work that plenty might also hate, while for us it's a hobby during free time.

[vbnetkhio]

Makes sense why Romanians are closest to them. If we had more samples from Wallachia, I'm sure they would have extended to the Southern cline too, to overlap with all of the Kuline samples.

They are pretty much like the Serbian/Romanian cluster but with a slight Iberian shift, i think it's just a small projection issue because they are ancient samples and the others are modern.

[CommonSense]

So much for Davidski's leak that the Slavic invaders were like modern-day Serbs :biggrin: Unless he thought that the 10th century is no different from Late Antiquity, lmao.

[Jana]

These are probably the Croats from Split from the Reich lab dataset, i think i posted their k13 long ago.

I thought so too, but than again these academic samples from Split aren't that southern but pretty usual Croats with only few outliers from what I remember. They weren't south of Romanians for sure.

[Ion Basescul]

So much for Davidski's leak that the Slavic invaders were like modern-day Serbs :biggrin: Unless he thought that the 10th century is no different from Late Antiquity, lmao.

Why? The problem here is that the number of Serb samples is significantly higher than that of the Kuline samples. If you'd have as many Kuline samples as Serb, then all that space within the Kuline cluster will be populated. The differences would be minimal.

[CommonSense]

Why? The problem here is that the number of Serb samples is significantly higher than that of the Kuline samples. If you'd have as many Kuline samples as Serb, then all that space within the Kuline cluster will be populated. The differences would be minimal.

No, the problem here is that he erroneously characterised them as 'Slavic invader samples' and equated them with the Slavs who settled Greece, drawing a conclusion that the Slavic admix in Greece is much higher than we thought it was. When in reality those individuals from Kuline lived four fucking centuries after Slavs had settled the Balkans all the way down to the Aegean.

[vbnetkhio]

I thought so too, but than again these academic samples from Split aren't that southern but pretty usual Croats with only few outliers from what I remember. They weren't south of Romanians for sure.

The pca is kind of weird, but their average point does land in between Serbs and Hungarians.

I'm pretty sure it's those samples since it's the same lab, and in the study they don't mention seqencing any new Croatian samples

[vbnetkhio]

No, the problem here is that he erroneously characterised them as 'Slavic invader samples' and equated them with the Slavs who settled Greece, drawing a conclusion that the Slavic admix in Greece is much higher than we thought it was. When in reality those individuals from Kuline lived four fucking centuries after Slavs had settled the Balkans all the way down to the Aegean.

I think there will also be another study which shows "Slavic invaders" in Macedonia being Serb-like, but the samples will also probably be from a later medieval era.

[Ion Basescul]

No, the problem here is that he erroneously characterised them as 'Slavic invader samples' and equated them with the Slavs who settled Greece, drawing a conclusion that the Slavic admix in Greece is much higher than we thought it was. When in reality those individuals from Kuline lived four fucking centuries after Slavs had settled the Balkans all the way down to the Aegean.

I see, is this the same paper as the one he referred to?

[Albertón]

good.

[Tschaikisten]

Supplementary Table 2. Information about newly reported present-day Serbs genotyped with the Human Origins array



These people were tested firstly for Y-DNA in cooperation of Biological faculty in Belgrade and Serbian DNA Project, like many others (more than 1000). That cooperation exist for years. Concretely samples of these people were used for this study and deeper analysis.

[CommonSense]

I see, is this the same paper as the one he referred to?

No, apparently vbn is right and he was talking about some samples from North Macedonia:

https://i.ibb.co/30ZQ8w2/image.png

Anyway, as attested by multiple historical sources, Slavs settled in Greece pretty much at the same time as they did in, for example, Dalmatia. He made a bunch of sensationalist claims because he dislikes Greeks, as evidenced by these two blog posts ( a (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/03/greek-confirmation-bias.html) and b (https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2021/05/beware-of-greeks-bearing-gifts.html)) and would like nothing more than to prove how modern-day Greeks have nothing to do whatsoever with those from antiquity.

So, as we can see, way back in 2017 he tried to push the mentioned thesis as true, so it's natural he sees confirmation bias everywhere. The only thing I can conlude, apart from him having some weird obssesions, is that his knowledge of the history of this region is negligible.

[vbnetkhio]

These people were tested firstly for Y-DNA in cooperation of Biological faculty in Belgrade and Serbian DNA Project, like many others (more than 1000). That cooperation exist for years. Concretely samples of these people were used for this study and deeper analysis.

They sequenced 1000 modern Serbs?

[Tschaikisten]

They sequenced 1000 modern Serbs?

Nope. We cooperate for every World DNA day/month and Serbian DNA day/month (September-October), when they give reduction for 23 Y-STRs testing. That cooperation exist for years and more than 1000 (maybe even 2000) were tested. They do lab job, we analyze result (check paper about that (http://library.ifla.org/2691/1/s06-2019-mihich-en.pdf)) Also, they tested for free for our future studies few hundreds of Serbs from Herzegovina, Stari Vlah and Raška, North Macedonia, Kosovo and Metohija, because that regions are most important for understanding Serb ethnogenesis and migrations. So, they used 30 samples from our cooperation. You can see SNP classifications of results and also locations in that table, they are from our base.

[Dušan]

We are truly champions in genetic testing.

[Ion Basescul]

We are truly champions in genetic testing.

How many are in the K13 averages though?
There are 271 Bulgarians and I swear I can push these guys easily into 500. There's a lot of data and even though my database for Romanians is larger, it's way easier to find Bulgarian testers.

[vbnetkhio]

How many are in the K13 averages though?
There are 271 Bulgarians and I swear I can push these guys easily into 500. There's a lot of data and even though my database for Romanians is larger, it's way easier to find Bulgarian testers.

Around 20 for each region. But i'm planning to get more.

Edit: that was the more detailwd division, the ones currently on vahaduo have more.

[-Scar-]

No, the problem here is that he erroneously characterised them as 'Slavic invader samples' and equated them with the Slavs who settled Greece, drawing a conclusion that the Slavic admix in Greece is much higher than we thought it was. When in reality those individuals from Kuline lived four fucking centuries after Slavs had settled the Balkans all the way down to the Aegean.

When he was asked about the timing of the samples he never gave any answer, thus he probably did not know.
The Y-DNA of the samples of this study were published 1 year ago or 2 I don't think it's the same study he was talking about. I think he was talking about Macedonia.
Carthaginians in Sardinia, Iberia and Sicily seem to have been largely of Northern African ancestry, and the Moors were largely Berbers.
I personally would be very suprised if the early Slavs that reached Bulgaria and Greece diverge from Poles as high as Serbs do, I am not expecting that. But we cannot be sure they were exactly like Poles.

[Varda]

Supplementary Table 2. Information about newly reported present-day Serbs genotyped with the Human Origins array


<tbody>
Y-chr
Place of origin
Region
Country
Coordinates of place of origin


R1b-U106>Z9
Bački Maglić
Bačka
Serbia
45° 21′ 45.94″ N, 19° 31′ 54.12″ E


I2-Y3120>A1328
Bođani, Bač
Bačka
Serbia
45° 23′ 10.8″ N, 19° 6′ 15.6″ E


R1a-M458>YP417
Čitluk, Kruševac
Rasina
Serbia
43° 35′ 18″ N, 21° 16′ 25.2″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Donja Bejašnica, Prokuplje
Toplica
Serbia
43° 11′ 30″ N, 21° 27′ 6″ E


E-V13>A18844
Dragolj, Gornji Milanovac
Šumadija
Serbia
44° 13′ 0″ N, 20° 27′ 0″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Gornji Kozji Dol, Trgovište
Vranjsko Ponišavlje
Serbia
42° 19′ 23.88″ N, 22° 6′ 24.12″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Guncati, Knić
Šumadija
Serbia
43° 53′ 2.4″ N, 20° 39′ 28.8″ E


E-V13>Z16988
Jabučje, Lajkovac
Kolubara
Serbia
43° 59′ 56.07″ N, 20° 59′ 29.11″ E


R1a-Z280>Y2902
Jovac, Vladičin Han
Vranjsko Ponišavlje
Serbia
42° 38′ 39.12″ N, 22° 0′ 11.16″ E


T-L131
Lešnica, Loznica
Mačva
Serbia
44° 39′ 5.4″ N, 19° 18′ 21.6″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Merdželat, Svrljig
Ponišavlje
Serbia
43° 25′ 19.8″ N, 22° 5′ 12″ E


E-M81
Neuzina, Sečanj
Zapadni Banat
Serbia
45° 20′ 40.74″ N, 20° 42′ 45.79″ E


Q-L245>BZ3000
Ostra, Čačak
Šumadija
Serbia
43° 54′ 20.16″ N, 20° 29′ 36.96″ E


E-V13>A24066
Pečenjevce, Leskovac
Jablanica
Serbia
43° 6′ 1.2″ N, 21° 55′ 0″ E


J2-L283>PH1602
Rusna, Doljevac
Ponišavlje
Serbia
43° 11′ 24″ N, 21° 53′ 31.2″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Supovac, Niš
Ponišavlje
Serbia
43° 23′ 12″ N, 21° 45′ 18″ E


G2-L497>Y128028
Veliko Orašje, Velika Plana
Šumadija
Serbia
44° 22′ 8.11″ N, 21° 5′ 9.6″ E


E-V13
Viteževo, Žabari
Braničevo
Serbia
44° 17′ 24.6″ N, 21° 15′ 5.4″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Zablaće, Čačak
Stari Vlah
Serbia
43° 50′ 48.12″ N, 20° 27′ 0″ E


T-Y11151
Vrutok, Gostivar
Zapadna Makedonija
North Macedonia
41° 46′ 6.96″ N, 20° 50′ 20.76″ E


R1a-M420
Barlovo, Kuršumlija
Toplica
Montenegro
42° 44′ 1.39″ N, 19° 47′ 30.25″ E


J2-M205>Y22059
Škaljar, Kotor
Zeta
Montenegro
42° 25′ 4.2″ N, 18° 45′ 35.4″ E


E-V13>Y37092
Berane
Brda
Montenegro
42° 50′ 33.72″ N, 19° 52′ 15.6″ E


E-V13>BY165837
Medun, Podgorica
Brda
Montenegro
42° 28′ 18.44″ N, 19° 21′ 47.89″ E


I1-P109>FGC22045
Pavino Polje, Bijelo Polje
Brda
Montenegro
43° 8′ 15″ N, 19° 37′ 43″ E


J2-L283>Z638
Predobrđe, Kolašin
Brda
Montenegro
42° 43' 32" N, 19° 25' 42" E


J1-Z18463>ZS3128
Šekular, Andrijevica
Brda
Montenegro
42° 44′ 1.39″ N, 19° 47′ 30.25″ E


I2-Y3120*
Đevraske, Kistanje
Dalmacija
Croatia
43° 57′ 11.12″ N, 15° 51′ 3.82″ E


E-V13
Grabovac Banski, Petrinja
Banija
Croatia
45° 19′ 50.74″ N, 16° 14′ 18.17″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Plaški
Lika
Croatia
45° 4′ 53.05″ N, 15° 21′ 44.59″ E


I2-Y3120
Smrdelje, Kistanje
Dalmacija
Croatia
43° 56′ 1.4″ N, 15° 54′ 3.86″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Trpinja
Zapadni Srem
Croatia
45° 25′ 9″ N, 18° 53′ 57.09″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Banja Luka
Bosanska Krajina
Bosnia and Herzegovina
44° 46′ 19.74″ N, 17° 11′ 27.28″ E


I2-Y3120>PH908
Pale
Istočna Bosna
Bosnia and Herzegovina
43° 48′ 45.36″ N, 18° 34′ 5.59″ E


J1-ZS4393>ZS9949
Poplat, Stolac
Hercegovina
Bosnia and Herzegovina
43° 2′ 25.43″ N, 18° 0′ 1.37″ E


E-M35 v I2-M223
Rilić, Kupres
Bosanska Krajina
Bosnia and Herzegovina
43° 54′ 46.8″ N, 17° 15′ 50.4″ E


J2-M205>Y22059
Rogatica
Istočna Bosna
Bosnia and Herzegovina
43° 47′ 55.82″ N, 19° 0′ 13.61″ E

</tbody>

Barlovo is in Serbia, not in Montenegro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlovo

[Ion Basescul]

Barlovo is in Serbia, not in Montenegro https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barlovo

Another partition soon? :whistle:

[Dick]

Wow this is amazing

[Lucas]

Any news about files? @vbknethio?

[vbnetkhio]

Any news about files? @vbknethio?

This is a preprint, so i guess we gave to wait for the full study

[rothaer]

How much time is there usually between the preprint and publishing of a study, does anybody know?

I've experienced more than one year as an extreme case. But say half a year could be expected in average imo.

[Dunai]

Nice to see Hungarians also included. Can someone explain what does this study specifically say about them?