Is Pakistan autosomally more South Asian or more West/Central Asian

[Peterski]

As a whole, is Pakistan autosomally closer to India or to Afghanistan and Iran?

Are there any G25 models for Pakistan? Is it truly a South Asian country ???

[Avicenna]

India ( as in northwest India ) . Most of Pakistan are Indus derived groups such as Punjabis , Gujjars, Sindhis , Kashmiris , and ofcourse migrants from India itself ( muhajjirs). The real amount of full blooded pashtuns native to Pakistan is greatly overestimated imho. Most " Pathans" are patrineally linked to pashtuns and are partly ethno linguistically linked to afghanistan or kpk . If you take that into account , the amount of pashtuns from Pakistan who will cluster closer to central Asians / afghans will reduce . Thus, I would say India .

[Jana]

Much more south Asian (Indic) by far.

[Peterski]

Any Pakistani GEDmatch kits?


Much more south Asian (Indic) by far.

Based on what? Have you ran some G25 models for Pakistani populations? When using K36 the South Asian component is not very dominant in Pakistan. South Central Asian and other MENA components are more dominant, and it peaks near the border of Iran and Pakistan.

Can we call South Central Asian from K36 an Indic component?

If we count it together with South Asian, then even people in Afghanistan will be South Asians.

[Jana]

Any Pakistani GEDmatch kits?



Based on what? Have you ran some G25 models for Pakistani populations? When using K36 the South Asian component is not very dominant in Pakistan. South Central Asian and other MENA components are more dominant, and it peaks near the border of Iran and Pakistan.

Can we call South Central Asian from K36 an Indic component?

If we count it together with South Asian, then even people in Afghanistan will be South Asians.

Vast majority of Pakistanis are Punjabi, and these are Indic genetically, ethnically and racially. Sindhis are Indic too.

[Avicenna]

Any Pakistani GEDmatch kits?



Based on what? Have you ran some G25 models for Pakistani populations? When using K36 the South Asian component is not very dominant in Pakistan. South Central Asian and other MENA components are more dominant, and it peaks near the border of Iran and Pakistan.

Can we call South Central Asian from K36 an Indic component?

If we count it together with South Asian, then even people in Afghanistan will be South Asians.

K36 is not accurate for non euros plus it's like 7 years old or something . No, south central asian cannot ever be an indic component thats preposterous. Most Pakistani groups score IVC + ASE + some steppe and bmac .

[Peterski]

Vast majority of Pakistanis are Punjabi, and these are Indic genetically, ethnically and racially. Sindhis are Indic too.

References for the South Central Asian component in K36 are the Balochi, Brahui, Burusho, Pathan and Sindhi people - are they Indic?

Punjabi tend to score more of South Central Asian than of South Asian, so they must be closely related to those reference populations.

BTW exactly what % of the population are Punjabi?

[Peterski]

K36 is not accurate for non euros

It is, actually even more accurate for them than for Euros.


No, south central asian cannot ever be an indic component thats preposterous. Most Pakistani groups score IVC + ASE + some steppe and bmac .

Yeah that's what I actually also think based on my Pakistani population averages in K36.

But... it is always nice to double check and gather more Pakistani samples, if you have.

[Avicenna]

References for the South Central Asian component in K36 are the Balochi, Brahui, Burusho, Pathan and Sindhi people - are they Indic?

Punjabi tend to score more of South Central Asian than of South Asian, so they must be closely related to those reference populations.

BTW exactly what % of the population are Punjabi?

No balochis are iranic , if you check their oracle distances they cluster with south Iranians . K36 is quite old , there are better fits for those groups in g25.

[Avicenna]

References for the South Central Asian component in K36 are the Balochi, Brahui, Burusho, Pathan and Sindhi people - are they Indic?

Punjabi tend to score more of South Central Asian than of South Asian, so they must be closely related to those reference populations.

BTW exactly what % of the population are Punjabi?

The south central Asian component is not entirely what you think it is . It's quite complex but my point is that there are much better calculators .

[Peterski]

The south central Asian component is not entirely what you think it is .

What do you mean? Can you elaborate?


It's quite complex but my point is that there are much better calculators .

Not really, unless you mean Global25.

[Avicenna]

What do you mean? Can you elaborate?



Not really, unless you mean Global25.

The "south central Asian " contained some south Asian. Just like the south Indian in Harappa world was roughly half western Eurasian . Point is , it's all proxy . G25 is Alot better since we have come a long way in trying to find a proxy for ASI.

[Peterski]

if you check their oracle distances they cluster with south Iranians

Post some examples of kit numbers (or K36 results) and I will run their distances to my >1500 population averages.


G25 is Alot better since we have come a long way in trying to find a proxy for ASI.

G25 is better only for Ancient populations. BTW, calculator percentages can also be converted into PCA coordinates.

[Arzanene]

from the averages on MDLP K16 compared to Hindi.

Target: Sindhi
Distance: 3.2900% / 3.29004356 | ADC: 0.25x RC
86.6 Hindi
13.4 Iran_Mazandrani

Target: Kalash
Distance: 10.7219% / 10.72189062 | ADC: 0.25x RC
88.7 Hindi
9.8 Iran_Mazandrani
1.5 Lithuanian_Zemajitia

Target: Pakistani
Distance: 3.2071% / 3.20713642 | ADC: 0.25x RC
80.7 Hindi
19.3 Iran_Mazandrani

Target: Punjabi-Gujjar
Distance: 3.4043% / 3.40429563 | ADC: 0.25x RC
75.7 Hindi
24.3 Iran_Mazandrani

Target: Balochi
Distance: 7.9177% / 7.91766413 | ADC: 0.25x RC
47.8 Hindi
44.2 Iran_Mazandrani
8.0 Velama

Target: Kashmiri
Distance: 2.2917% / 2.29174140 | ADC: 0.25x RC
57.2 Hindi
33.2 Pashtun_Afghanistan
9.6 Iran_Mazandrani

[Jased]

K36 is not accurate for non euros plus it's like 7 years old or something . No, south central asian cannot ever be an indic component thats preposterous. Most Pakistani groups score IVC + ASE + some steppe and bmac .

I personally think gedmatch, g25 and all those websites are nothing but scams and vahadou etc relies from gedmatch itself who are very old and filled with poor examples.

Modern genetic technology still a joke. But will see how 23andme turns around.

[Avicenna]

I personally think gedmatch, g25 and all those websites are nothing but scams and vahadou etc relies from gedmatch itself who are very old and filled with poor examples.

Modern genetic technology still a joke. But will see how 23andme turns around.

I have been saying that all of these so called commercial / autosmal calculators are nothing but a pinch of salt in showing true ancestral information . I would much rather rely on actual scientific findings used by actual geneticists in their studies such as dstats etc . 23andme ain't great either .

[Avicenna]

from the averages on MDLP K16 compared to Hindi.

Target: Sindhi
Distance: 3.2900% / 3.29004356 | ADC: 0.25x RC
86.6 Hindi
13.4 Iran_Mazandrani

Target: Kalash
Distance: 10.7219% / 10.72189062 | ADC: 0.25x RC
88.7 Hindi
9.8 Iran_Mazandrani
1.5 Lithuanian_Zemajitia

Target: Pakistani
Distance: 3.2071% / 3.20713642 | ADC: 0.25x RC
80.7 Hindi
19.3 Iran_Mazandrani

Target: Punjabi-Gujjar
Distance: 3.4043% / 3.40429563 | ADC: 0.25x RC
75.7 Hindi
24.3 Iran_Mazandrani

Target: Balochi
Distance: 7.9177% / 7.91766413 | ADC: 0.25x RC
47.8 Hindi
44.2 Iran_Mazandrani
8.0 Velama

Target: Kashmiri
Distance: 2.2917% / 2.29174140 | ADC: 0.25x RC
57.2 Hindi
33.2 Pashtun_Afghanistan
9.6 Iran_Mazandrani

Good try man but I have to say it's very misleading . The "Hindi " is highest among kalash and yet actual indic groups score much less of it compared to kalash? The Hindi component must be something like kalash / burisho like which should not be called Hindi at all .

[Arzanene]

Good try man but I have to say it's very misleading . The "Hindi " is highest among kalash and yet actual indic groups score much less of it compared to kalash? The Hindi component must be something like kalash / burisho like which should not be called Hindi at all .

You are right, if we compare it to a dravidian population like Telugu instead it models the Hindi sample as 80% telugu and 20% Tajik. But the Kalash source population seems to still be majority south Asian it only bumped the Iranian and Lithuanian up a bit when using telugu as the primary population of comparison instead.

Target: Hindi
Distance: 4.1831% / 4.18311929

79.7 Telugu_Kannada
20.3 Tadjik_Pomiri

Target: Kalash
Distance: 12.2716% / 12.27163828

75.5 Telugu_Kannada
17.7 Iran_Mazandrani
6.8 Lithuanian_Zemajitia

[Östsvensk]

Here are a bunch of GEDMatch results of a Pakistani with a Kashmiri grandfather posted on Anthrogenica. Most or all of his top 20 HarappaWorld populations seem to be South Asian...

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?24500-Urdu-Speaking-Pakistani-GEDMatch-Results

[Avicenna]

You are right, if we compare it to a dravidian population like Telugu instead it models the Hindi sample as 80% telugu and 20% Tajik. But the Kalash source population seems to still be majority south Asian it only bumped the Iranian and Lithuanian up a bit when using telugu as the primary population of comparison instead.

Target: Hindi
Distance: 4.1831% / 4.18311929

79.7 Telugu_Kannada
20.3 Tadjik_Pomiri

Target: Kalash
Distance: 12.2716% / 12.27163828

75.5 Telugu_Kannada
17.7 Iran_Mazandrani
6.8 Lithuanian_Zemajitia

A distance of 12 is ridiculously bad , those samples are not a good fit for kalash at all , it's practically useless trying to conclude findings with that man

[Roy]

A distance of 12 is ridiculously bad , those samples are not a good fit for kalash at all , it's practically useless trying to conclude findings with that man

I don't think there are populations that Kalash can be sensibly modelled as because Kalash are so unique and isolated.

[Zoro]

I have been saying that all of these so called commercial / autosmal calculators are nothing but a pinch of salt in showing true ancestral information . I would much rather rely on actual scientific findings used by actual geneticists in their studies such as dstats etc . 23andme ain't great either .

Yes, Commercial ancestry companies, GEDmatch, G25 and so on can’t be relied on to do a one to one comparison of 2 samples for relatedness or genetic similarity. You have to use formal stats or if you don’t know how to use then maybe IBS.

Companies such as 23andme and others do nothing but to confuse people wrt genetic similarity. If you were to go by their results you would wrongly conclude various Iranics such as Pashtuns, Kurds, Tajiks, Baloch, Persians, Azeris are quite different from each other when in reality they are extremely close. They do it by manipulating data to such an extent to try to fit people within countries or regions recently created by man

[Avicenna]

Yes, Commercial ancestry companies, GEDmatch, G25 and so on can’t be relied on to do a one to one comparison of 2 samples for relatedness or genetic similarity. You have to use formal stats or if you don’t know how to use then maybe IBS.

Companies such as 23andme and others do nothing but to confuse people wrt genetic similarity. If you were to go by their results you would wrongly conclude various Iranics such as Pashtuns, Kurds, Tajiks, Baloch, Persians, Azeris are quite different from each other when in reality they are extremely close. They do it by manipulating data to such an extent to try to fit people within countries or regions recently created by man

So f*** true it's unbelievable bro . You've been shouting this out from the rooftops all these months and years but people are slowly starting to finally listen .

[Freeroostah]

It depends from the ethnic groups.

Punjabis and Sindhis are definitely closer to Indians while Balochi and Pashtuns to the Afghans/Iranians.

[Arzanene]

So f*** true it's unbelievable bro . You've been shouting this out from the rooftops all these months and years but people are slowly starting to finally listen .

Why do you have a problem with the kalash results? were you expecting them to be fully aryan?

[Zoro]

Why do you have a problem with the kalash results? were you expecting them to be fully aryan?

Kalash are too drifted for Admixture based calculators. Using IBS they look pretty similar to West Asians although i forgot which group. They’re like proto Iranics and don’t have the amount of East Asian admixture other Iranics such as Tajiks, Azeris, Padhtuns and Kurds have because of their earlier isolation from the westbound waves of East Asian bearing ethnic groups. They do have some BMAC or IVC type admixture though

[Komintasavalta]

Kalash are too drifted for Admixture based calculators. Using IBS they look pretty similar to West Asians although i forgot which group.

I just made a global f2 matrix of modern populations in 1240K+HO. There Kalash are the closest to Pathan:


$ curl https://pastebin.com/raw/B1t0ESsj|awk -F, 'NR==1{for(i=2;i<=NF;i++)if($i==x)break;next}$1!=x{print$i,$1}' x=Kalash -|sort -n|head -n16
.00741 Pathan
.00745 GujaratiA
.00760 Tajik
.00784 Sindhi_Pakistan
.00824 GujaratiB
.00831 Balochi
.00848 Burusho
.00854 Iranian
.00863 Iranian_Bandari
.00865 Makrani
.00873 Brahui
.00896 Kabardinian
.00897 Kumyk
.00905 Nogai_Karachay_Cherkessia
.00912 Azeri
.00912 GujaratiCi

[Avicenna]

Why do you have a problem with the kalash results? were you expecting them to be fully aryan?

What a dumb ass comment

[Peterski]

And what do you think about this?:

https://s3.gifyu.com/images/Pakistan-DNA.jpg

[Kaazi]

And what do you think about this?:

https://s3.gifyu.com/images/Pakistan-DNA.jpg

Bring this topic on Anthrogenica.


Much more south Asian (Indic) by far.

Indic should not be confused with South Asian becoz the Kalash, Kho, Chitrali, Shina, Pashai and other Dardic ppls are Indic/Indo-Aryans.