The Tocharians - Indo-Europeans of the East

[The Lawspeaker]

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The Tocharians - Indo-Europeans of the East

The Tocharians were an Indo-European people and the easternmost branch of Indo-European culture. Despite their eventual location in the Tarim Basin of Xinjiang province in western China, their cultural and linguistic links to Central and Northern Europe are stronger than to the neighbouring Indo-Iranians, a parallel branch of Indo-Europeans who dominated the Eurasian steppes until the Mongol and Turkic expansion of the Middle Ages. Around the same time, in the 9th century, the Tarim Basin was overrun by Uyghur Turks, who destroyed the Tocharian people and assimilated their remnants.

The Tocharians are frequently associated with a series of mummies discovered in the Tarim Basin, which date from 1900 BCE to 200 CE. Physical anthropologists propose the movement of at least two Europoid physical types and associate these types with the Tocharian and Iranian (Saka) branches of the Indo-European language family, respectively.

It is the Afanasevo culture to which Mallory & Mair trace the earliest Bronze Age settlers of the Tarim and Turpan basins. The Afanasevo culture (c. 3500-2500 BCE) displays cultural and genetic connections with the Indo-European-associated cultures of the Eurasian Steppe yet predates the specifically Indo-Iranian-associated Andronovo culture (c. 2000-900 BCE) enough to isolate the Tocharian languages from Indo-Iranian linguistic innovations like satemisation. Within this culture, over 90% of the Bronze Age period mtDNA haplogroups and Y-DNA haplogroups were of European origin and a study determined that at least 60% of the individuals overall (out of the 26 Bronze and Iron Age human remains' samples of the study that could be tested) had light hair and blue or green eyes.

The Roman historian Pliny the Elder reports a curious description of the Seres (in the territories of northwestern China) made by an embassy from Taprobane (Ceylon) to Emperor Claudius, saying that they "exceeded the ordinary human height, had flaxen hair, and blue eyes, and made an uncouth sort of noise by way of talking", suggesting they may be referring to the ancient Indo-European populations of the Tarim Basin.

The new finds are also forcing a reexamination of old Chinese books that describe historical or legendary figures of great height, with deep-set blue or green eyes, long noses, full beards, and red or blond hair. Scholars have traditionally scoffed at these accounts, but it now seems that they may be accurate.

[GeistFaust]

I remember reading about them they also supposedly had many converts to Buddhism and Nestorainism.

[Valedictorian]

Underrated thread. I wonder what might have been their most representative phenotypes? East Nordid? or maybe a Nordo-Mongolid mix seems most likely?

[Div]

Tocharians, they weren't at all related to Iranics due to them being a centum group. I think they were both Buddhist and a modified version of local Zoroastrianism. They did have some interesting phenotypes. Sadly they were wiped out by the floods of mongoloids that came out of the Altai mountains. Also there are two versions of Tocharian: A and B you can find the different kinds on some link on google, I haven't looked at it in years.

[Token]

Underrated thread. I wonder what might have been their most representative phenotypes? East Nordid? or maybe a Nordo-Mongolid mix seems most likely?

Based on Afanasevo remains, fully caucasoid wogs with broad faces and very tall stature.

[Veslan]

Underrated thread. I wonder what might have been their most representative phenotypes? East Nordid? or maybe a Nordo-Mongolid mix seems most likely?

Vast majority of them were Caucasoids and rather light pigmented.
Mummies:
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XRV6QfreY1Y/TqaSmkR6KlI/AAAAAAAAQKE/vWQEVqB0UcA/s1600/Cherchen-man_01.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/BByGe43S-kY/hqdefault.jpg
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oJmppKNKqpQ/UerV2j8Sv6I/AAAAAAAADO8/Qc82yYaQZoo/s1600/Tarim-mummies-14.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/TBOI2NdGOpk/hqdefault.jpg
http://www.crystalinks.com/cherchen.woman.jpg
Depictions:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/QizilDonors.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Donor_figures_from_Kizil_Caves.PNG/220px-Donor_figures_from_Kizil_Caves.PNG
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Gipxn_-dOQU/maxresdefault.jpg
(Tocharian on the left, Chinese on the right):
https://borderlessblogger.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/central_asian_buddhist_monks.jpg
Modern Uyghurs with visible Indo-European influence:
https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/09/26/3_slide-1d232c6c1556c02ec2735e2768aa7dee95bc0ba8-s800-c85.jpg
http://realhistoryww.com/world_history/ancient/Whites/Uyghur_1.jpg
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Q292GGoa9QA/UZtc4N1DBYI/AAAAAAAAA_k/iosC6Q1GsXQ/s1600/cc578_o.jpg
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-eab3ccfb356532632129c358ad95ebce
http://i0.wp.com/thinktribally.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/uyghur-remain.jpg
http://i1.wp.com/thinktribally.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Uyghur_2.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/246/527823727_28ef1f1bec.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/2b/81/09/2b8109e00fa6d475a83d34d4c48b62c6.png
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/11/15/article-2507435-196A47E800000578-458_470x669.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bf/bb/36/bfbb3685d2e471aa3b6a793d674eb71b.jpg
Pigmentation based on DNA samples (Yuezhi culture):
https://i.imgur.com/JUzI03E.png

My classification would be: mainly in the Nordic and Paleo-European range.

[Root]

Tocharian language



geographically it was the most eastern indo-european group belonged to the centum branch (celtic, germanic, romance, hellenic)


https://www.usu.edu/markdamen/1320hist&Civ/slides/07ie/IElanguagesmap.jpg

https://borderlessblogger.files.wordpress.com/2015/04/centum_satem_map1.png



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nypB2BEirI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0F3Dao7-Us




sounds something like between Celtic, Albanian, Slavic, Indo-Iranian

[Yaglakar]

"Around the same time, in the 9th century, the Tarim Basin was overrun by Uyghur Turks, who destroyed the Tocharian people and assimilated their remnants."

This is false. Tocharian language as a means of communication became obsolete in 7th-8th centuries. Xinjiang was largely Turkicised before Orkhon Uighurs arrived there. Late Tocharian/Kuchian writings have numerous grammatical errors, and numerous Turkic loanwords pointing to the fact that the language was falling into disuse and late Tocharian served as a language of priesthood something like Latin in vernacular majorities in Europe. Old Uighurs/Toquz Oghuz did not overrun anything, their core relocated from Mongolia to Gansu and northern Xinjiang, where part of old Uighurs already lived together with a plethora of other Turkic groups. Southern Xinjiang was administered by Tibetans before they were driven out. Tocharians were not numerous, Indo-Iranic groups like Sogdians (escaping from Islamic purges) and Khotanese Sakas outnumbered them by a big margin. This is clear from administrative documentation (names on documents) and Uighur envoys to China and elsewhere (again names on orders and missions). There are some Buddhist texts though that were directly translated to Uighur from Tocharian. We know because the authors tells us themselves on top of those manuscripts, my name is this or that, this has been translated from Tocharian to Uighur. That is about the only evidence of some sort of contact.

[Dna8]

Nice thread

[Steppe Timelord]

Nice thread

Indeed.
Tocharians predated IE satem/centum split though, thus they had no relation with any centum or satem IE language. They were basically PIE mirror, transplant in the farther east.
Personally I think they looked like the proto-european high-broad faced yamnayas, as it is said on wikipedia. So Pontid or gingerish version of it would be commonplace today. Possibly proto-nordid, but I really believe proto-nordids resulted after mixing with EEF types for some reason. Yamnaya were more brunn-taurid combinations as they were modelled genetically, 1 west asian great grandfather, 2 scottish grandfathers or some sort, it was said on eupedia. This is the explanation of red hair among uyghurs. Coming from IEs.

[Grace O'Malley]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bf/bb/36/bfbb3685d2e471aa3b6a793d674eb71b.jpg

That kid isn't Uyghur :) It's taken by Steven Edson a photographer in Boston. That kid's most likely an Irish-American but he is American at any rate.

Some pictures that come up are just a bit suss when you search these exotic populations.

[Steppe Timelord]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bf/bb/36/bfbb3685d2e471aa3b6a793d674eb71b.jpg

That kid isn't Uyghur :) It's taken by Steven Edson a photographer in Boston. That kid's most likely an Irish-American but he is American at any rate.

Some pictures that come up are just a bit suss when you search these exotic populations.

Right,. But I would have said there is still a hope to find some pure unaltered IEs in central asia anyway :p . There was some red headed french guy on flickr where he was put in an album together with some light-featured afghanis, everyone classified him as corded-turanid or uralid unironically, because he also had some hooded eyes. Can't remember which thread was that. But I lurked and found it some time ago. That was funny. He was in fact the photographer or something.

[Hektor12]

That kid isn't Uyghur :) It's taken by Steven Edson a photographer in Boston. That kid's most likely an Irish-American but he is American at any rate.

Some pictures that come up are just a bit suss when you search these exotic populations.

But isnt it interesting, some people can use pic of a child from Atlantic coast, as a pic of a child from almost Pacific coast. Imagine the distance.

[Parça do Neymar]

I'm still unsure if the Tocharians and the Tarim Mummies were the same people (or particularly related), there's a substantial time gap between the two cultures (some of the mummies are dated from ~4000 years ago), I wouldn't rule out the possibility of an Iranic origin (e.g. like the Saka from the same region).

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Dzungarian samples (2900 BC)


Target: CHN_Dzungaria_EBA2:G218M5-3N
Distance: 4.5345% / 0.04534455
54.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG
12.2 RUS_Karelia_HG
9.2 GEO_CHG
6.0 DEU_LBK_KD
5.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN
4.8 CHN_Amur_River_9200BP
4.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
4.0 CHN_Boshan_N

Target: CHN_Dzungaria_EBA2:G218M5-2
Distance: 4.0626% / 0.04062607
52.8 RUS_Tyumen_HG
15.8 GEO_CHG
15.6 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
6.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN
5.8 DEU_LBK_KD
3.4 CHN_Boshan_N

Target: CHN_Dzungaria_EBA1:SSGM16
Distance: 5.1099% / 0.05109876
34.4 RUS_Tyumen_HG
27.8 RUS_Karelia_HG
22.0 GEO_CHG
6.2 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
4.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN
3.4 GRC_Peloponnese_N
1.4 DEU_LBK_KD
0.8 IRN_HotuIIIb_Meso

Target: CHN_Dzungaria_EBA1:AYIM22BY
Distance: 4.5150% / 0.04515004
41.0 RUS_Tyumen_HG
22.8 RUS_Karelia_HG
16.8 GEO_CHG
9.6 IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN
7.6 DEU_LBK_KD
2.2 CHN_Amur_River_9200BP

Target: CHN_Dzungaria_EBA1:AYIM22BN
Distance: 4.2187% / 0.04218741
31.8 RUS_Tyumen_HG
23.4 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
16.8 GEO_CHG
11.8 RUS_Karelia_HG
6.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN
5.0 DEU_LBK_KD
5.0 IRN_HotuIIIb_Meso

Tarim samples (1900 BC)


Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA2:11KBM1
Distance: 6.3685% / 0.06368452
51.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3
32.4 RUS_Tyumen_HG
6.0 MNG_North_N
5.4 CHN_Boshan_N
3.0 RUS_Kolyma_Meso
1.2 CHN_Dushan_8700BP
1.0 CHN_Yumin_N

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:XHM135
Distance: 5.3267% / 0.05326748
71.2 RUS_Tyumen_HG
16.2 RUS_AfontovaGora3
7.8 RUS_Dzhylinda_Meso
2.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
1.2 RUS_Ust_Belaya
1.0 USA_Spirit_Cave_11000BP

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:XHM110
Distance: 5.4513% / 0.05451325
64.8 RUS_Tyumen_HG
25.2 RUS_AfontovaGora3
6.8 CHN_Amur_River_EN
2.6 IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N
0.6 USA_Spirit_Cave_11000BP

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:XHM100
Distance: 5.7922% / 0.05792210
53.8 RUS_Tyumen_HG
34.8 RUS_AfontovaGora3
10.0 RUS_Ust_Belaya
0.8 ARG_LagunaChica_6800BP
0.6 USA_Ancient_Beringian

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:XHM75
Distance: 6.1183% / 0.06118302
72.4 RUS_Tyumen_HG
19.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3
4.4 RUS_Ust_Belaya
2.2 USA_Ancient_Beringian
1.2 ARG_LagunaChica_6800BP
0.8 IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:L6106
Distance: 6.1976% / 0.06197578
47.6 RUS_Tyumen_HG
41.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3
11.0 RUS_Ust_Belaya
0.4 ARG_LagunaChica_6800BP

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:L6105
Distance: 6.3794% / 0.06379411
45.2 RUS_Tyumen_HG
42.6 RUS_AfontovaGora3
11.6 RUS_Ust_Belaya
0.6 ARG_LagunaChica_6800BP

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:L6103
Distance: 5.5762% / 0.05576215
75.2 RUS_Tyumen_HG
15.4 RUS_AfontovaGora3
8.8 RUS_Dzhylinda_Meso
0.4 CHN_Liangdao1_N
0.2 RUS_Ust_Belaya

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:L6101
Distance: 5.3411% / 0.05341071
55.6 RUS_AfontovaGora3
31.4 RUS_Tyumen_HG
11.6 CHN_Amur_River_EN
1.4 USA_Spirit_Cave_11000BP

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:L5213
Distance: 5.8742% / 0.05874219
67.6 RUS_Tyumen_HG
20.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3
7.8 RUS_Ust_Belaya
3.0 USA_Spirit_Cave_11000BP
1.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:L5209
Distance: 5.9496% / 0.05949582
72.4 RUS_Tyumen_HG
18.2 RUS_AfontovaGora3
5.6 RUS_Ust_Belaya
2.4 USA_Ancient_Beringian
1.4 ARG_LagunaChica_6800BP

Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:GMGM1
Distance: 5.9163% / 0.05916268
59.8 RUS_Tyumen_HG
23.2 RUS_AfontovaGora3
8.8 CHN_Amur_River_EN
6.4 USA_Ancient_Beringian
1.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N

[Lemminkäinen]

How researchers can know that they spoke Indoeuropean language without written evidences? Looking at their mtDna their mother language could have been something else. Today over 3000 languages are endangered and most of them likely lost in the near future.. Projecting the present to the past is problematic.

[Creoda]

How researchers can know that they spoke Indoeuropean language without written evidences? Looking at their mtDna their mother language could have been something else. Today over 3000 languages are endangered and most of them likely lost in the near future.. Projecting the present to the past is problematic.
It's a logical deduction. You have a known Indo-European language branch there and you have a known European Steppe-descended people who lived there. Where else would it have come from?

[NSXD60]

It's a logical deduction. You have a known Indo-European language branch there and you have a known European Steppe-descended people who lived there. Where else would it have come from?

I think he's more interested in Finns being that he's Finnish, not PIEs, whose languages are not related to his, even though racially he may be more PIE than Finn; it's sort of like Meds who deny the original Nordicity of PIEs while speaking a PIE derived tongue.

[Token]

It's a logical deduction. You have a known Indo-European language branch there and you have a known European Steppe-descended people who lived there. Where else would it have come from?

True. I doubt the mummified were Tocharians though, there's 1500 years separating the mummies from the attested Tocharian language and the Tarim basin was a very volatile place. Given how they were almost uniformly R1a, i think it is more likely that they were Andronovo-derived and thus spoke some sort of Indo-Iranic.

[Mejgusu]

To underline something, I often see the same pictures of page 1 if it comes to Uyghurs and Tocharians. Personally I believe they probably absorbed some of them into their people, not like they are just assimilated or predominately Tocharians, it’s probably just a small(not over 25%)admixture. The second point is, that this kind of Uyghurs are very rare and don’t represent the whole people, 95% of them look like Uzbeks or Turkmens. Also there are still some Iranic group who live there, some people on this pictures aren’t ethnic Uyghurs.

[Token]

To underline something, I often see the same pictures of page 1 if it comes to Uyghurs and Tocharians. Personally I believe they probably absorbed some of them into their people, not like they are just assimilated or predominately Tocharians, it’s probably just a small(not over 25%)admixture. The second point is, that this kind of Uyghurs are very rare and don’t represent the whole people, 95% of them look like Uzbeks or Turkmens. Also there are still some Iranic group who live there, some people on this pictures aren’t ethnic Uyghurs.

It is always the same images, as if a couple of light-eyed or light-haired individuals are proof of substantial Tocharian admixture. The vast majority looks like this:

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/0B84/production/_116884920_gettyimages-623230716.jpg

[Ajeje Brazorf]

True. I doubt the mummified were Tocharians though, there's 1500 years separating the mummies from the attested Tocharian language and the Tarim basin was a very volatile place. Given how they were almost uniformly R1a, i think it is more likely that they were Andronovo-derived and thus spoke some sort of Indo-Iranic.

The new samples from the Tarim basin are anything but Indo-European speakers. They have a very archaic, native autosomal profile, with 81-84% ANE, no EEF, no CHG and no WHG. In contrast the samples from Dzungaria have recent Indo-European origins, in fact they have considerably less ANE (55-58%), more EEF (6-8%), considerably more CHG (18-24%) and WHG (2-6%). Both populations have some Eastern Eurasian admixture.

[Token]

The new samples from the Tarim basin are anything but Indo-European speakers. They have a very archaic, native autosomal profile, with 81-84% ANE, no EEF, no CHG and no WHG. In contrast the samples from Dzungaria have recent Indo-European origins, in fact they have considerably less ANE (55-58%), more EEF (6-8%), considerably more CHG (18-24%) and WHG (2-6%). Both populations have some Eastern Eurasian admixture.

Yes, but not sure if these Tarim mummies are the same Tarim mummies that i'm referring to. The Tarim mummies don't represent a single continuous population, after 1000BC most of the mummies were Mongoloid for example. These newly sequenced ones are dated to 2100-1700 and are uniformly R1b xL754, while the R1a and light-haired ones that people commonly post online were later (the Cherchen man, for example, is dated to 1000BC), so it could be that the former, extremely WSHG population was replaced by presumably Andronovo newcomers later on (thus the lack of R1b in the later, blond mummies).

[Token]

Yes, but not sure if these Tarim mummies are the same Tarim mummies that i'm referring to. The Tarim mummies don't represent a single continuous population, after 1000BC most of the mummies were Mongoloid for example. These newly sequenced ones are dated to 2100-1700 and are uniformly R1b xL754, while the R1a and light-haired ones that people commonly post online were later (the Cherchen man, for example, is dated to 1000BC), so it could be that the former, extremely WSHG population was replaced by presumably Andronovo newcomers later on (thus the lack of R1b in the later, blond mummies).

By the way, these new samples lend further support to the lack of continuity between Afanasevo and Tocharian language in the Tarim basin, which implies that Tocharian came later and from somewhere else.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Yes, but not sure if these Tarim mummies are the same Tarim mummies that i'm referring to. The Tarim mummies don't represent a single continuous population, after 1000BC most of the mummies were Mongoloid for example. These newly sequenced ones are dated to 2100-1700 and are uniformly R1b xL754, while the R1a and light-haired ones that people commonly post online were later (the Cherchen man, for example, is dated to 1000BC), so it could be that the former, extremely WSHG population was replaced by presumably Andronovo newcomers later on (thus the lack of R1b in the later, blond mummies).

I agree with everything you said. Just one thing: according to Davidski the R1a of Tarim mummies may not be accurate.

https://i.imgur.com/LFnRiex.png

[Token]

I agree with everything you said. Just one thing: according to Davidski the R1a of Tarim mummies may not be accurate.

https://i.imgur.com/LFnRiex.png

What is the chance that all of the 11 R1a (out of 12 samples) assignments were wrong? But if Davidski says that they could be, i will give it the benefit of doubt since the guy is a haplogroup nerd. If the R1a assignments turn out to be wrong then it will be much easier to argue for a Tocharian origin of these mummies.

[Veslan]

Indeed.
Tocharians predated IE satem/centum split though, thus they had no relation with any centum or satem IE language. They were basically PIE mirror, transplant in the farther east.
Personally I think they looked like the proto-european high-broad faced yamnayas, as it is said on wikipedia. So Pontid or gingerish version of it would be commonplace today. Possibly proto-nordid, but I really believe proto-nordids resulted after mixing with EEF types for some reason. Yamnaya were more brunn-taurid combinations as they were modelled genetically, 1 west asian great grandfather, 2 scottish grandfathers or some sort, it was said on eupedia. This is the explanation of red hair among uyghurs. Coming from IEs.

I think that whe should remember that Pre-Uyghur Tarim Basin people were actually of two different Indo-European sources. First migrants who got there were descended from Andronovo culture. They were probably Iranian language speakers, had mostly R1a haplogroup, and phenotypically resembled Andronovo people, so rather light pigmented at about 60% percentage.

Second immigrants that you describe, were the Tocharians proper, who actually came to Tarim Basin later and were probably descended from Afanasievo culture. More resembling original Yamnaya type, they had mostly R1b haplogroup. They assimilated Iranian peoples and were later themselves conquered and assimilated by Uyghur tribes. "Scottish grandfather" theory is a big LOL of course, but Andronovo people did have EEF and WHG influence (they were Corded Ware offshoot), this explains lightness.

[Smitty]

Does anyone know what this Afanasievo sample looked like? I've seen it in an ancient calculator run, and I'm wondering what modern populations it would be similar to.