Iron age Uzbekistan samples on vahaduo

[Dr_Maul]

Just saw these were added to vahaduo. From Eastern UZB. Check them out. quite closer to modern West Iranics than any previous DNA from Central Asia, parthian colonizers? Also, L8169 is Greco-Bactrian possibly? has recent European ancestry but much more steppe than south euros.



UZB_IA_Rabat:L5138,0.08992,0.073118,-0.042615,0.007106,-0.042777,0.010319,0.00423,0.002538,-0.037837,-0.034078,0.000325,0.003597,-0.005203,-0.004266,0.018187,0.00411,-0.014081,0.009755,0.006285,-0.018259,0.001747,-0.005688,-0.000246,0.000361,0.002994
UZB_IA_Rabat:L5139,0.101303,0.087336,-0.036581,0.019703,-0.042162,0.017849,0.00705,-0.003692,-0.043564,-0.029887,-0.006008,0.001948,0.000297,-0.009496,0.005836,0.030098,0.006128,0.001267,-0.00088,-0.010505,-0.00287,-0.007048,0.006532,0.010604,0.006107
UZB_IA_Rabat:L5140,0.091058,0.045699,-0.033941,0.008398,-0.034776,0.001673,0.00846,-0.004154,-0.033133,-0.023873,0.001299,0.004046,0.001933,-0.021332,0.012079,0.020419,0.007562,0.007348,0.012 696,-0.005753,-0.0141,-0.003833,0.002958,0.000843,-0.007544
UZB_IA_Rabat:L7999,0.100164,0.093429,-0.045632,0.012597,-0.037853,0.011992,0.00564,0.005077,-0.027406,-0.021504,0.006658,-0.009591,0.001784,-0.001651,0.014386,0.011005,-0.018645,-0.003927,-0.005908,-0.018884,-0.003244,-0.007543,-0.015529,-0.001446,0.005029
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8001,0.078538,0.027419,-0.025267,0.015504,-0.050163,0.011713,0.014101,0.01223,-0.016362,-0.02278,0.005521,-0.002248,0.017691,-0.010184,0.014522,0.016971,-0.005215,0.013809,0.008799,-0.018259,-0.009234,-0.015828,-0.000493,0.004338,0.003113
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8002,0.091058,0.097491,-0.048649,0.005814,-0.051086,0.012829,0.011751,-0.008307,-0.058289,-0.030251,-0.001137,-0.008992,0.006244,-0.00234,0.023208,0.011005,-0.022817,-0.00076,0.001006,-0.013506,0.000624,-0.000989,-0.003328,0.002169,-0.008742
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8006,0.09675,0.072103,-0.013576,0.030362,-0.047393,0.009482,0.015511,0,-0.037428,-0.021686,-0.007795,0.001049,-0.009366,-0.013212,0.00475,0.020949,0.006389,0.00266,0.01835 2,-0.009505,0.00574,0.008779,0.006162,0.010604,-0.008861
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8619,0.101303,0.122879,0.011691,-0.001938,0.002462,-0.00753,0.002115,-0.002077,-0.010022,0.00164,-0.003085,-0.001499,-0.000892,-0.00234,0.008686,-0.001989,-0.020731,0.004307,0.007039,-0.013506,0.008235,0.003833,0.005176,0.001928,0
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8621,0.100164,0.097491,-0.049403,0.000646,-0.046778,0.001673,0.003525,-0.016384,-0.033951,-0.027153,-0.00065,0.008393,-0.000892,0.00055,0.021444,0.015248,-0.024903,0.010262,0.001508,-0.014132,-0.009358,-0.003586,0.000246,0.000723,0.00934
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8629,0.088782,0.085304,-0.044123,0.007429,-0.031083,0.006972,0.00235,0.005307,-0.031292,-0.029887,0.013153,-0.000599,0.004608,-0.004954,0.020358,-0.006099,-0.007953,0.000127,0.002137,-0.012631,-0.001872,0.000247,0,-0.005784,0.00958
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8630,0.105855,0.076165,-0.035826,0.020026,-0.036622,0.019522,0.009165,-0.000923,-0.026384,-0.026242,0.001299,0.002398,0.004014,-0.00812,0.010179,0.012994,-0.018906,-0.00038,0.000126,5e-04,0.000998,-0.004699,0.005423,-0.000482,-0.00946
UZB_IA_Serkharakat:L8671,0.101303,0.088351,-0.033564,0.027455,-0.042469,0.010598,0.00658,-0.000692,-0.037428,-0.029887,-0.004872,0.006444,0.000297,-0.010046,0.011672,0.016176,0.002738,-0.001774,-0.003142,-0.007754,-0.004866,-0.007914,0.005793,-0.000482,0.001796


Edit: Wondering how many J2 among these folks :cool: considering about 25% of the modern inhabitants carry it, which I doubt is a result of more medieval events?

[Zoro]

Just saw these were added to vahaduo. From Eastern UZB. Check them out. quite closer to modern West Iranics than any previous DNA from Central Asia, parthian colonizers? Also, L8169 is Greco-Bactrian possibly? has recent European ancestry but much more steppe than south euros.



UZB_IA_Rabat:L5138,0.08992,0.073118,-0.042615,0.007106,-0.042777,0.010319,0.00423,0.002538,-0.037837,-0.034078,0.000325,0.003597,-0.005203,-0.004266,0.018187,0.00411,-0.014081,0.009755,0.006285,-0.018259,0.001747,-0.005688,-0.000246,0.000361,0.002994
UZB_IA_Rabat:L5139,0.101303,0.087336,-0.036581,0.019703,-0.042162,0.017849,0.00705,-0.003692,-0.043564,-0.029887,-0.006008,0.001948,0.000297,-0.009496,0.005836,0.030098,0.006128,0.001267,-0.00088,-0.010505,-0.00287,-0.007048,0.006532,0.010604,0.006107
UZB_IA_Rabat:L5140,0.091058,0.045699,-0.033941,0.008398,-0.034776,0.001673,0.00846,-0.004154,-0.033133,-0.023873,0.001299,0.004046,0.001933,-0.021332,0.012079,0.020419,0.007562,0.007348,0.012 696,-0.005753,-0.0141,-0.003833,0.002958,0.000843,-0.007544
UZB_IA_Rabat:L7999,0.100164,0.093429,-0.045632,0.012597,-0.037853,0.011992,0.00564,0.005077,-0.027406,-0.021504,0.006658,-0.009591,0.001784,-0.001651,0.014386,0.011005,-0.018645,-0.003927,-0.005908,-0.018884,-0.003244,-0.007543,-0.015529,-0.001446,0.005029
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8001,0.078538,0.027419,-0.025267,0.015504,-0.050163,0.011713,0.014101,0.01223,-0.016362,-0.02278,0.005521,-0.002248,0.017691,-0.010184,0.014522,0.016971,-0.005215,0.013809,0.008799,-0.018259,-0.009234,-0.015828,-0.000493,0.004338,0.003113
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8002,0.091058,0.097491,-0.048649,0.005814,-0.051086,0.012829,0.011751,-0.008307,-0.058289,-0.030251,-0.001137,-0.008992,0.006244,-0.00234,0.023208,0.011005,-0.022817,-0.00076,0.001006,-0.013506,0.000624,-0.000989,-0.003328,0.002169,-0.008742
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8006,0.09675,0.072103,-0.013576,0.030362,-0.047393,0.009482,0.015511,0,-0.037428,-0.021686,-0.007795,0.001049,-0.009366,-0.013212,0.00475,0.020949,0.006389,0.00266,0.01835 2,-0.009505,0.00574,0.008779,0.006162,0.010604,-0.008861
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8619,0.101303,0.122879,0.011691,-0.001938,0.002462,-0.00753,0.002115,-0.002077,-0.010022,0.00164,-0.003085,-0.001499,-0.000892,-0.00234,0.008686,-0.001989,-0.020731,0.004307,0.007039,-0.013506,0.008235,0.003833,0.005176,0.001928,0
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8621,0.100164,0.097491,-0.049403,0.000646,-0.046778,0.001673,0.003525,-0.016384,-0.033951,-0.027153,-0.00065,0.008393,-0.000892,0.00055,0.021444,0.015248,-0.024903,0.010262,0.001508,-0.014132,-0.009358,-0.003586,0.000246,0.000723,0.00934
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8629,0.088782,0.085304,-0.044123,0.007429,-0.031083,0.006972,0.00235,0.005307,-0.031292,-0.029887,0.013153,-0.000599,0.004608,-0.004954,0.020358,-0.006099,-0.007953,0.000127,0.002137,-0.012631,-0.001872,0.000247,0,-0.005784,0.00958
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8630,0.105855,0.076165,-0.035826,0.020026,-0.036622,0.019522,0.009165,-0.000923,-0.026384,-0.026242,0.001299,0.002398,0.004014,-0.00812,0.010179,0.012994,-0.018906,-0.00038,0.000126,5e-04,0.000998,-0.004699,0.005423,-0.000482,-0.00946
UZB_IA_Serkharakat:L8671,0.101303,0.088351,-0.033564,0.027455,-0.042469,0.010598,0.00658,-0.000692,-0.037428,-0.029887,-0.004872,0.006444,0.000297,-0.010046,0.011672,0.016176,0.002738,-0.001774,-0.003142,-0.007754,-0.004866,-0.007914,0.005793,-0.000482,0.001796


Edit: Wondering how many J2 among these folks :cool: considering about 25% of the modern inhabitants carry it, which I doubt is a result of more medieval events?

Their supplement PCA shows some of the samples cluster with Armenians and Iranians. Is the raw data available somewhere?

[Dr_Maul]

Their supplement PCA shows some of the samples cluster with Armenians and Iranians. Is the raw data available somewhere?

No idea, just saw that these were posted in the official ancient individual samples. And yeah they seem much Western shifted, but to be honest I don't see the big surprise over it due to the fact that modern Tajiks derive significant medieval steppe admix it would seem from Turkics and others. And Turkmens and Uzbeks Iranic component shows close affinity to Iranian plateau folks. It would appear that Yaghnobis are the most preserved of the sedentary east iranics, with a people in between Yaghnobis and modern Iranian persians to form the Parthian substrate?

[Lucas]

Just saw these were added to vahaduo. From Eastern UZB. Check them out. quite closer to modern West Iranics than any previous DNA from Central Asia, parthian colonizers? Also, L8169 is Greco-Bactrian possibly? has recent European ancestry but much more steppe than south euros.



UZB_IA_Rabat:L5138,0.08992,0.073118,-0.042615,0.007106,-0.042777,0.010319,0.00423,0.002538,-0.037837,-0.034078,0.000325,0.003597,-0.005203,-0.004266,0.018187,0.00411,-0.014081,0.009755,0.006285,-0.018259,0.001747,-0.005688,-0.000246,0.000361,0.002994
UZB_IA_Rabat:L5139,0.101303,0.087336,-0.036581,0.019703,-0.042162,0.017849,0.00705,-0.003692,-0.043564,-0.029887,-0.006008,0.001948,0.000297,-0.009496,0.005836,0.030098,0.006128,0.001267,-0.00088,-0.010505,-0.00287,-0.007048,0.006532,0.010604,0.006107
UZB_IA_Rabat:L5140,0.091058,0.045699,-0.033941,0.008398,-0.034776,0.001673,0.00846,-0.004154,-0.033133,-0.023873,0.001299,0.004046,0.001933,-0.021332,0.012079,0.020419,0.007562,0.007348,0.012 696,-0.005753,-0.0141,-0.003833,0.002958,0.000843,-0.007544
UZB_IA_Rabat:L7999,0.100164,0.093429,-0.045632,0.012597,-0.037853,0.011992,0.00564,0.005077,-0.027406,-0.021504,0.006658,-0.009591,0.001784,-0.001651,0.014386,0.011005,-0.018645,-0.003927,-0.005908,-0.018884,-0.003244,-0.007543,-0.015529,-0.001446,0.005029
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8001,0.078538,0.027419,-0.025267,0.015504,-0.050163,0.011713,0.014101,0.01223,-0.016362,-0.02278,0.005521,-0.002248,0.017691,-0.010184,0.014522,0.016971,-0.005215,0.013809,0.008799,-0.018259,-0.009234,-0.015828,-0.000493,0.004338,0.003113
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8002,0.091058,0.097491,-0.048649,0.005814,-0.051086,0.012829,0.011751,-0.008307,-0.058289,-0.030251,-0.001137,-0.008992,0.006244,-0.00234,0.023208,0.011005,-0.022817,-0.00076,0.001006,-0.013506,0.000624,-0.000989,-0.003328,0.002169,-0.008742
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8006,0.09675,0.072103,-0.013576,0.030362,-0.047393,0.009482,0.015511,0,-0.037428,-0.021686,-0.007795,0.001049,-0.009366,-0.013212,0.00475,0.020949,0.006389,0.00266,0.01835 2,-0.009505,0.00574,0.008779,0.006162,0.010604,-0.008861
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8619,0.101303,0.122879,0.011691,-0.001938,0.002462,-0.00753,0.002115,-0.002077,-0.010022,0.00164,-0.003085,-0.001499,-0.000892,-0.00234,0.008686,-0.001989,-0.020731,0.004307,0.007039,-0.013506,0.008235,0.003833,0.005176,0.001928,0
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8621,0.100164,0.097491,-0.049403,0.000646,-0.046778,0.001673,0.003525,-0.016384,-0.033951,-0.027153,-0.00065,0.008393,-0.000892,0.00055,0.021444,0.015248,-0.024903,0.010262,0.001508,-0.014132,-0.009358,-0.003586,0.000246,0.000723,0.00934
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8629,0.088782,0.085304,-0.044123,0.007429,-0.031083,0.006972,0.00235,0.005307,-0.031292,-0.029887,0.013153,-0.000599,0.004608,-0.004954,0.020358,-0.006099,-0.007953,0.000127,0.002137,-0.012631,-0.001872,0.000247,0,-0.005784,0.00958
UZB_IA_Rabat:L8630,0.105855,0.076165,-0.035826,0.020026,-0.036622,0.019522,0.009165,-0.000923,-0.026384,-0.026242,0.001299,0.002398,0.004014,-0.00812,0.010179,0.012994,-0.018906,-0.00038,0.000126,5e-04,0.000998,-0.004699,0.005423,-0.000482,-0.00946
UZB_IA_Serkharakat:L8671,0.101303,0.088351,-0.033564,0.027455,-0.042469,0.010598,0.00658,-0.000692,-0.037428,-0.029887,-0.004872,0.006444,0.000297,-0.010046,0.011672,0.016176,0.002738,-0.001774,-0.003142,-0.007754,-0.004866,-0.007914,0.005793,-0.000482,0.001796


Edit: Wondering how many J2 among these folks :cool: considering about 25% of the modern inhabitants carry it, which I doubt is a result of more medieval events?

It was posted in some comment on Eurogene blog.

[Leto]

Interesting. According to my model they seem to range from 32 to 47% MLBA Steppe. However, one is a clear outlier and more similar to some Balkan people, as Dr. Maul mentioned.

[Mejgusu]

No idea, just saw that these were posted in the official ancient individual samples. And yeah they seem much Western shifted, but to be honest I don't see the big surprise over it due to the fact that modern Tajiks derive significant medieval steppe admix it would seem from Turkics and others. And Turkmens and Uzbeks Iranic component shows close affinity to Iranian plateau folks. It would appear that Yaghnobis are the most preserved of the sedentary east iranics, with a people in between Yaghnobis and modern Iranian persians to form the Parthian substrate?

I really thought pre Turkic Iranics there were similar to Yaghnobis, didn’t see the results yet(I try it today, lets see whether I can run your samples rightfully ahaha). Maybe really just recent migrants from Westasia?

[Mejgusu]

......

[Leto]

I really thought pre Turkic Iranics there were similar to Yaghnobis, didn’t see the results yet(I try it today, lets see whether I can run your samples rightfully ahaha). Maybe really just recent migrants from Westasia?
They do not cluster with modern Iranians. Serkharakat gets the smallest distance and it's basically a Yaghnobi

Target: UZB_IA_Serkharakat:L8671
Distance: 2.0728% / 0.02072767
44.2 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
39.8 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
9.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
4.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
2.6 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave

Target: Tajik_Yaghnobi
Distance: 1.7848% / 0.01784792
43.6 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
41.2 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
6.4 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave
6.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
2.4 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2

Serkharakat is apparently a place in Surkhandarya velayat, near the border with Tajikistan and a few kilometers away from Dushanbe.

[Zoro]

No idea, just saw that these were posted in the official ancient individual samples. And yeah they seem much Western shifted, but to be honest I don't see the big surprise over it due to the fact that modern Tajiks derive significant medieval steppe admix it would seem from Turkics and others. And Turkmens and Uzbeks Iranic component shows close affinity to Iranian plateau folks. It would appear that Yaghnobis are the most preserved of the sedentary east iranics, with a people in between Yaghnobis and modern Iranian persians to form the Parthian substrate?

Someone must have had the samples for there to be G25 coordinates. Their data center says not available till 2023. I would take any results you get with G25 with a heap of salt though because the coordinates are so corrupted the way Davidski haphazardly keeps adding samples to it.

Also according to the paper supp only 3 samples are decent quality with coverage higher than 1: L5138, L5139, L5140. I don’t trust the other samples since their quality is so poor

Fwiw here’s the PCA from their supp. I’m not a fan of PCAs since they don’t have the last say on how similar 2 samples are to each other. Someone should get the data and do IBS.

https://i.imgur.com/s6ZMwRq.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xpXLiMA.jpg

[vbnetkhio]

Someone must have had the samples for there to be G25 coordinates. Their data center says not available till 2023. I would take any results you get with G25 with a heap of salt though because the coordinates are so corrupted the way Davidski haphazardly keeps adding samples to it.

Also according to the paper supp only 3 samples are decent quality with coverage higher than 1: L5138, L5139, L5140. I don’t trust the other samples since their quality is so poor

Fwiw here’s the PCA from their supp. I’m not a fan of PCAs since they don’t have the last say on how similar 2 samples are to each other. Someone should get the data and do IBS.

https://i.imgur.com/s6ZMwRq.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/xpXLiMA.jpg

New Samples are projected onto the initial G25 model, there's no corruption of coordinates.

[Zoro]

New Samples are projected onto the initial G25 model, there's no corruption of coordinates.

You’re a little naive. Do some deeper diving (read the paper below) and you’ll know why. Not to mention all the inconsistencies I mentioned on the coordinates of some of the G25 samples. Nothing adds up

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.11.439381v3.full

[vbnetkhio]

You’re a little naive. Do some deeper diving (read the paper below) and you’ll know why. Not to mention all the inconsistencies I mentioned on the coordinates of some of the G25 samples. Nothing adds up

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.11.439381v3.full
Thanks, ill check it out.

Maybe i'm misunderstaning you, are you saying the whole G25 is recalculated each time a new sample is added?

[Peterski]

Which modern populations are they similar to?

[Dr_Maul]

Which modern populations are they similar to?

UZB_IA_Rabat:L8619 is mixed euro. Close to Balkans tho not very close. UZB_IA_Rabat:L8001 has more steppe input than the rest, and theres a couple who have minor Asian input which also pulls them away. The rest of the samples are either close to modern Yaghnobis, or are in between Yaghnobis and Iranians.

[Lucas]

Yep mainly Yagnobi-like. But interesting is this Caucasus pull among two

Distance to: UZB_IA_Serkharakat:L8671
0.02829336 Tajik_Yagnobi

Distance to: UZB_IA_Rabat:L8630
0.03348177 Tajik_Yagnobi

Distance to: UZB_IA_Rabat:L8629
0.04845539 Azerbaijani_Dagestan

Distance to: UZB_IA_Rabat:L8621
0.04602960 Iranian_Zoroastrian

Distance to: UZB_IA_Rabat:L8619
0.04631161 Turkish_Deliorman

Distance to: UZB_IA_Rabat:L8006
0.04584823 Tajik_Yagnobi

Distance to: UZB_IA_Rabat:L8002
0.05522082 Tabasaran

Distance to: UZB_IA_Rabat:L8001
0.04505745 Tajik

Distance to: UZB_IA_Rabat:L7999
0.04711528 Tajik_Yagnobi

Distance to: UZB_IA_Rabat:L5140
0.04606145 Tajik_Yagnobi

Distance to: UZB_IA_Rabat:L5139
0.03379365 Tajik_Yagnobi

Distance to: UZB_IA_Rabat:L5138
0.03614129 Tajik_Yagnobi

[Lucas]

But this, I think it is low quality sample simple. Unless some Graeco-Bactrian ancestry but it is too old for it?

Distance to: UZB_IA_Rabat:L8619
0.04631161 Turkish_Deliorman

Target: Turkish_Deliorman
Distance: 0.4913% / 0.00491309 | R4P
34.6 Turkish_Balikesir
33.8 Italian_Calabria
28.2 Lithuanian_VZ
3.4 Mari

[Dr_Maul]

But this, I think it is low quality sample simple. Unless some Graeco-Bactrian ancestry but it is too old for it?

Distance to: UZB_IA_Rabat:L8619
0.04631161 Turkish_Deliorman

Target: Turkish_Deliorman
Distance: 0.4913% / 0.00491309 | R4P
34.6 Turkish_Balikesir
33.8 Italian_Calabria
28.2 Lithuanian_VZ
3.4 Mari

According to the paper samples are from around 100 bc. So definitely around the right time frame I would think

[Lucas]

According to the paper samples are from around 100 bc. So definitely around the right time frame I would think


Oh I thought IA here is older so you think he could be really Greco_Bactrian?

[Leto]

According to the paper samples are from around 100 bc. So definitely around the right time frame I would think
So these samples basically confirm the idea that the Yaghnobis are the direct descendants of the Sogdians.

[Lucas]

So these samples basically confirm the idea that the Yaghnobis are the direct descendants of the Sogdians.

It was told already in '50 by Soviet academics.

[Dr_Maul]

So these samples basically confirm the idea that the Yaghnobis are the direct descendants of the Sogdians.

Yeah it would seem Yaghnobis are basically pure Sogdians, whereas Pamiris are somekind of scythian mix? Conventional Tajiks seem Sogdian+Turkic. Makes me wonder what is the origin of MNG_TUK001? I always thought that was more of a Sogdian profile, but maybe too little steppe

[Lucas]

It was told already in '50 by Soviet academics.
https://i.imgur.com/ae7nHRm.png
https://i.imgur.com/qYtEKgp.png

[Dr_Maul]

Oh I thought IA here is older so you think he could be really Greco_Bactrian?

Maybe but it seems much more complicated than that.. it is not modelling properly at all

Target: UZB_IA_Rabat:L8619
Distance: 2.9189% / 0.02918882 | R2P
54.4 Orcadian
45.6 Iraqi
????

This one isn't too bad it seems
Target: UZB_IA_Rabat:L8619
Distance: 3.6367% / 0.03636665
62.2 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
37.8 UZB_IA_Rabat

I think they have an atypical mix

[Dirdepo]

Target: Dirdepo_scaled
Distance: 2.4182% / 0.02418167
52.8 Baltic_EST_BA
23.6 TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
13.0 UZB_IA_Rabat
10.0 Sarmatian_MDA
0.6 Canary_Islands_Guanche

[Leto]

Yeah it would seem Yaghnobis are basically pure Sogdians, whereas Pamiris are somekind of scythian mix? Conventional Tajiks seem Sogdian+Turkic. Makes me wonder what is the origin of MNG_TUK001? I always thought that was more of a Sogdian profile, but maybe too little steppe
Yeah, though I think there also must be some medieval Persian admixture in the Tajiks. Hard to believe the language would have established itself without any actual human colonization and intermarriage. I would also add that we have too few Tajik samples, for example I'm dying to see some from the Rasht valley (roughly the former Soviet Gharm oblast). Basically east of Dushanbe but west of Badakhshan. That's a very mountainous region and I can assume they do not differ much from the Pamiris in terms of DNA. Maybe only a little bit less Steppe but who knows.

[Leto]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/ae7nHRm.png
[img]https://i.imgur.com/qYtEKgp.png
That's a valuable piece of information, thanks. I know that but now we have genetic data, not only linguistic.

[Lucas]

That's a valuable piece of information, thanks. I know that but now we have genetic data, not only linguistic.

Yes interesting that Tajik language is modern phenomenon, and before proto-Yagnobi was main language there.

[Dr_Maul]

Yeah, though I think there also must be some medieval Persian admixture in the Tajiks. Hard to believe the language would have established itself without any actual human colonization and intermarriage. I would also add that we have too few Tajik samples, for example I'm dying to see some from the Rasht valley (roughly the former Soviet Gharm oblast). Basically east of Dushanbe but west of Badakhshan. That's a very mountainous region and I can assume they do not differ much from the Pamiris in terms of DNA. Maybe only a little bit less Steppe but who knows.

I don't think so tbh, the presence of Persian in the region is more or less like that of Arabic, Russian, English, Turkic, etc.. Sometimes, languages just have a certain upper hand and replace smaller local ones.

[Leto]

I don't think so tbh, the presence of Persian in the region is more or less like that of Arabic, Russian, English, Turkic, etc.. Sometimes, languages just have a certain upper hand and replace smaller local ones.
I believe it is generally assumed that there was some medieval Persian immigration to Transoxania.


Contemporary Tajiks are the descendants of ancient Eastern Iranian inhabitants of Central Asia, in particular, the Sogdians and the Bactrians, and possibly other groups, with an admixture of Western Iranian Persians and non-Iranian peoples.[25][26] According to Richard Nelson Frye, a leading historian of Iranian and Central Asian history, the Persian migration to Central Asia may be considered the beginning of the modern Tajik nation, and ethnic Persians, along with some elements of East-Iranian Bactrians and Sogdians, as the main ancestors of modern Tajiks.[27] In later works, Frye expands on the complexity of the historical origins of the Tajiks. In a 1996 publication, Frye explains that many "factors must be taken into account in explaining the evolution of the peoples whose remnants are the Tajiks in Central Asia" and that "the peoples of Central Asia, whether Iranian or Turkic speaking, have one culture, one religion, one set of social values and traditions with only language separating them."[28]

Regarding Tajiks, the Encyclopædia Britannica states:
The Tajiks are the direct descendants of the Iranian peoples whose continuous presence in Central Asia and northern Afghanistan is attested from the middle of the 1st millennium BC. The ancestors of the Tajiks constituted the core of the ancient population of Khwārezm (Khorezm) and Bactria, which formed part of Transoxania (Sogdiana). Over the course of time, the eastern Iranian dialect that was used by the ancient Tajiks eventually gave way to Farsi, a western dialect spoken in Iran and Afghanistan.[29]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajiks#History

[Albertón]

Nice.

[Dr_Maul]

I believe it is generally assumed that there was some medieval Persian immigration to Transoxania.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajiks#History

interesting, it doesn't seem super reflected in autosomal or haplogroups? maybe elite domination? modern Farsi was more or less pioneered in that region to begin with, whereas most of Iran spoke Pahlavi into the early islamic period

[Lucas]

I believe it is generally assumed that there was some medieval Persian immigration to Transoxania.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tajiks#History

Generally most of Uzbeks are slightly turkized Sogdians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdian_language

[Leto]

Generally most of Uzbeks are slightly turkized Sogdians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdian_language
That's a bit of a stretch. Sogdians weren't 40% Mongoloid like Uzbeks.

[Avicenna]

Generally most of Uzbeks are slightly turkized Sogdians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdian_language

No way man . Modern day tajiks ( not yaghnobis or pamiris ) from tajikstan are basically Sogdian/Bactrian with considerable amount of Turkic admixture + medieval west iranic admixture .

I would say that yaghnobis are the more obvious choice to find the suitable candidate for modern Sogdians . Pamiris have additional Scythian admixture . Same applies for tajiks from Afghanistan ( Kapisa, Badakshan, Wakhan, Panjshir, Parwan).

[Leto]

No way man . Modern day tajiks ( not yaghnobis or pamiris ) from tajikstan are basically Sogdian/Bactrian with considerable amount of Turkic admixture + medieval west iranic admixture .

I would say that yaghnobis are the more obvious choice to find the suitable candidate for modern Sogdians . Pamiris have additional Scythian admixture . Same applies for tajiks from Afghanistan ( Kapisa, Badakshan, Wakham, Panjshir, Parwan).
Are Pamiris actually part Scythian?

[Avicenna]

Are Pamiris actually part Scythian?

Scythians were east iranics werent they? West scythians formed the Alan's which are the ancestors of Ossetians . East scythians formed tribes like the Sakas etc which are the ancestors of East iranics like pashtuns , yaghnobis , tajiks and pamiris . Right ?

[Mejgusu]

Generally most of Uzbeks are slightly turkized Sogdians.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdian_language

That’s a myth, although Turkic groups were and still are numerous there, they never had a dominant character like Ottoman or Safavid Turks. Quite the contrary, Uzbeks are one of the most Turkic group which exists but they are heavily „persianized“. Even nowadays Persian culture is dominating most parts of Central Asia.


Scythians were east iranics werent they? West scythians formed the Alan's which are the ancestors of Ossetians . East scythians formed tribes like the Sakas etc which are the ancestors of East iranics like pashtuns , yaghnobis , tajiks and pamiris . Right ?

If I am not wrong, East Scythians were different to West Scythians who were the main stock of all Iranic groups. At least genetically they were less steppe but more east eurasian than western Scythians.

[Dr_Maul]

Are Pamiris actually part Scythian?

I think so, but im not sure

Target: Tajik_Rushan
Distance: 2.0542% / 0.02054214
78.0 Tajik_Yagnobi
22.0 Saka_Tian_Shan