How are the tallest Croats by far the ones with the least Germanic DNA?

[vidovic]

https://i.ibb.co/QkLKC6R/el-WUw-CLJ1z-G-FR0-JNWBDGTFPWD83r-Uu-D1b7smmy-Wv-DA.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

Shouldn't it be the other way around? In Croatia the more north you go the more Germanic DNA there is, but the people are also getting significantly shorter. Pic related

Also genes wise:

Target: Croat_South
Distance: 16.8620% / 16.86204257
51.2 Italian
48.8 German_Northwest

Target: Herzegovina_Croat
Distance: 17.4311% / 17.43112250
50.9 Italian
49.1 German_Northwest

Target: Croat_North
Distance: 16.6733% / 16.67330847
65.5 German_Northwest
34.5 Italian

pure Germanic DNA is clearly bigger in north Croats, but out of all Croats they're the shortest. Makes 0 sense to me.

[Varda]

Being tall is not connected with Germanic dna.

[catgeorge]

You can draw same conclusions with Black Africans that are very tall on average.

[TheMaestro]

Because it's somehow connected to dinaric alps and not germanic dna

[Varda]

You can draw same conclusions with Black Africans that are very tall on average.

Southern Sudanese are tallest and darkest people in the world. They are black in the true sense of this word.


https://youtu.be/u03kNQNclGY

[Bigby]

Germans are not tall, only tall germanics are scandinavians and dutch cause of the food standards they have(+ swedes have free quality food in schools, which is very important) and because they are less industrialized(PC corporate nerds).

Same as how americans are average because despite having the money they have thousands of food choices and most are thrash.

[catgeorge]

Facts be known Blacks are tall af.

Mountain Europeans are usually Alpine in phenotype which makes them stocky.
Europeans that have genetic heritage from around the sea are usually tall.

[Immanenz]

Selection, physical acticvity, nutrition

there was selection for tall, flat back convex nose types- who are turning themselves now into less extreme forms (Alpine-Med) but keeping the height, while Centraleuropean indeed are dominated by smaller Alpine looking people, but keep in mind Tyrolians are basically strongly DInaric too, but arent necessary tall, the same can be said for East Germany, Poles. Albanians are the most Dinaric craniometreically and the are small.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJbqJwhUwAAQZlC.jpg

I disagree with stockiness, Montenigrinians seem stocky- mesomorph range to me and are on average very tall.

[Varda]

Facts be known Blacks are tall af.

Mountain Europeans are usually Alpine in phenotype which makes them stocky.
Europeans that have genetic heritage from around the sea are usually tall.

The tallest Europeans are South Slavs from Dinaric Alps (Dinaric Serbs, Bosniaks minus Sandžakians, Montenegrins and Dinaric Croatians) https://www.herzegdaytours.com/the-dinaric-alps-this-place-may-have-the-tallest-people-in-the-world/

[Voskos]

Lol at Germans being tall. Have seen Swedes and Germans my whole life in Crete and can't remember anyone being particularly tall. Americans, Russians, some Serbs are usually the tallest.

[Jana]

Lol at Germans being tall. Have seen Swedes and Germans my whole life in Crete and can't remember anyone being particularly tall. Americans, Russians, some Serbs are usually the tallest.

Nonsense, Russians are below average short.

[Jana]

https://i.ibb.co/QkLKC6R/el-WUw-CLJ1z-G-FR0-JNWBDGTFPWD83r-Uu-D1b7smmy-Wv-DA.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

Shouldn't it be the other way around? In Croatia the more north you go the more Germanic DNA there is, but the people are also getting significantly shorter. Pic related

Also genes wise:

Target: Croat_South
Distance: 16.8620% / 16.86204257
51.2 Italian
48.8 German_Northwest

Target: Herzegovina_Croat
Distance: 17.4311% / 17.43112250
50.9 Italian
49.1 German_Northwest

Target: Croat_North
Distance: 16.6733% / 16.67330847
65.5 German_Northwest
34.5 Italian

pure Germanic DNA is clearly bigger in north Croats, but out of all Croats they're the shortest. Makes 0 sense to me.

Your models are nonsensical just like most threads you open. Thus distance 10+. Northern Croats don't have any significant Germanic DNA, but rather Celtic.


Selection, physical acticvity, nutrition

there was once a bottle neck situation where there was selection for tall, flat back convex nose types- who are turning themselves now into less extreme forms (Alpine-Med) but keeping the height, while Centraleuropean indeed are dominated by smaller Alpine looking people, but keep in mind Tyrolians are basically strongly DInaric too, but arent necessary tall, the same can be said for East Germany, Poles. Albanians are the most Dinaric craniometreically and the are small.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJbqJwhUwAAQZlC.jpg

These tall dinaric Croats aren't dinaric proper in phenotype at all actually, but they have significant UP (Balkan Borreby admixture). Dinaric Croats stereotype is tall, brunet man with large flattened head and brick jaw, so obviously something different from idea of dinaric (except height and flattened occuiput)

Convex noses are huge minority among Croats. Prominent noses are common indeed, but convex are not at all. And significant amount of these dinaric alps Slavs have smaller, fleshy noses.


The tallest Europeans are South Slavs from Dinaric Alps (Dinaric Serbs, Bosniaks minus Sandžakians, Montenegrins and Dinaric Croatians) https://www.herzegdaytours.com/the-dinaric-alps-this-place-may-have-the-tallest-people-in-the-world/

Tallest south Slavs are according to these studies Croats from south-central Dalmatia and west Herzegovina, both areas are low in elevation and not much higher than sea level.

[Ford]

Natural selection lol. Only the biggest, baddest people survived in the Dinaric Alps.

[Bigby]

Lol at Germans being tall. Have seen Swedes and Germans my whole life in Crete and can't remember anyone being particularly tall. Americans, Russians, some Serbs are usually the tallest.


Russians are short people, you're probably only seeing the oligarchs that afford to come to Crete for vacation, unlike 99% of Russians that live on potatoes and vodka.

[Varda]

Tallest south Slavs are according to these studies Croats from south-central Dalmatia and west Herzegovina, both areas are low in elevation and not much higher than sea level.

Both Dalmatia and western Herzegovina belong to wider Dinaric region.


Montenegrin males are 186 cm on average https://www.panacomp.net/montenegrin-people/

57% of Montenegro is on altitude over 1000 m.

[Jana]

Both Dalmatia and western Herzegovina belong to wider Dinaric region.


Montenegrin males are 186 cm on average https://www.panacomp.net/montenegrin-people/

57% of Montenegro is on altitude over 1000 m.

Yes, but I just said parts of Herzegovina and Dalmatia where Croats live are rather low in elevation. Thus idea they live in mountains is completely wrong.
Most dinaric Alps Croats live in karst valleys not much above sea level. There are some exceptions like Rama bit in general it's like I said.

[Leto]

Nonsense, Russians are below average short.
Nonsense is what you are saying, Stears. I'm 175 or 176 and have met plenty of people taller than me in Russia. I don't consider myself short of course.

[Leto]

Russians are short people, you're probably only seeing the oligarchs that afford to come to Crete for vacation, unlike 99% of Russians that live on potatoes and vodka.
Shut up, you sock puppet. With that kind of trolling attitude you surely won't last here.

[Jana]

Nonsense is what you are saying, Stears. I'm 175 or 176 and have met plenty of people taller than me in Russia. I don't consider myself short of course.

Sorry, but compared to European average Russians are opposite of tall.

[Bigby]

Shut up, you sock puppet. With that kind of trolling attitude you surely won't last here.


Nonsense is what you are saying, Stears. I'm 175 or 176 and have met plenty of people taller than me in Russia. I don't consider myself short of course.

> I'm 175 or 176 and have met plenty of people taller than me in Russia

You realize how this sounds? "I'm short by objective standards but I had the oportunity to meet taller people than me in Russia"

[Leto]

Sorry, but compared to European average Russians are opposite of tall.
Russians are not shorter than most Europeans (plenty of Europeans are Southerners who are STEREOTYPICALLY short), I don't believe that for a second.

[Jana]

Tallest Balkan nation is Montenegro. But what is interesting is while Albanians from Albania are significantly shorter than south-west Slavs, Kosovo Albanians are rather tall according to latest studies.

[Leto]

> I'm 175 or 176 and have met plenty of people taller than me in Russia

You realize how this sounds? "I'm short by objective standards but I had the oportunity to meet taller people than me in Russia"
I'm an average guy, neither particularly tall nor short.

[Jana]

Russians are not shorter than most Europeans (plenty of Europeans are Southerners who are STEREOTYPICALLY short), I don't believe that for a second.

Greeks are taller than Russians are for example, and they are southern Europeans. Or most southern actually. Greeks are above average in stature for Europe.

[Varda]

Yes, but I just said parts of Herzegovina and Dalmatia where Croats live are rather low in elevation. Thus idea they live in mountains is completely wrong.
Most dinaric Alps Croats live in karst valleys not much above sea level. There are some exceptions like Rama bit in general it's like I said.

In Montenegro the tallest people live on medium elevation. From my experience the tallest Montenegrins are from Cetinje area. Cetinje is on the karst on elevation 650-680 m.
On the other hand Vasojevići and Kuči are on higher elevation and they are visible shorter. Berane center of Vasojevići is on 700 m, but Vasojevići settled there after 1912 when Ottomans left Berane. They originated from places with higher elevation bellow the Komovi mount. From example village Japan in Potkomovlje is on elevation on 1300 m, it's real place not a joke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan,_Montenegro

[Bigby]

Elevation has nothing to do with height, this is autism, what is elevation going to do for you when you're poor and you've got nothing to eat.

In reality, you gotta look at more practical things, such as the tribes living near water might've had access to better food resources and more farming land...

[kevinmac]

Holland has the tallest people. I know from experience. Germans are of average height.

[Lucas]

Albanians are the most Dinaric craniometreically and the are small.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJbqJwhUwAAQZlC.jpg


Not really small but it seems they just preserved their height from pre-war times when they were among the tallest in Europe. Probably during communism rule their living conditions (especially food quality) prevented them to be taller then their natural genetic predispositions.

[vidovic]

Your models are nonsensical just like most threads you open. Thus distance 10+. Northern Croats don't have any significant Germanic DNA, but rather Celtic.



These tall dinaric Croats aren't dinaric proper in phenotype at all actually, but they have significant UP (Balkan Borreby admixture). Dinaric Croats stereotype is tall, brunet man with large flattened head and brick jaw, so obviously something different from idea of dinaric (except height and flattened occuiput)

Convex noses are huge minority among Croats. Prominent noses are common indeed, but convex are not at all. And significant amount of these dinaric alps Slavs have smaller, fleshy noses.



Tallest south Slavs are according to these studies Croats from south-central Dalmatia and west Herzegovina, both areas are low in elevation and not much higher than sea level.

more celtic, and celts are partly germanic. northern croats have more north Atlantic DNA than poles and Ukrainians

[Norb]

German in genetic terms doesn't = Germanic

[Jana]

Not really small but it seems they just preserved their height from pre-war times when they were among the tallest in Europe. Probably during communism rule their living conditions (especially food quality) prevented them to be taller then their natural genetic predispositions.

It does not seem to be the case:


Considering that the quality of nutrition in Albania appears to be similar to that of BiH, Croatia, or Serbia, it is possible that the much higher Neolithic admixture, combined with 2–3 times higher infant mortality, could explain why the height of contemporary Albanian men is an anomaly in the Dinaric context—only 174.0 cm, which is 8.9 cm (!) shorter than in well-fed Montenegrins, and 5.5 cm shorter than in Kosovar Albanians. Preliminary results from Albanian universities confirm these large differences (S Popović, pers. comm., 2017). At the same time, the GDP per capita in Albania (for 2016) is 18% higher than in Kosovo (The World Bank). The strikingly taller statures of Kosovar men are thus surprising.

https://peerj.com/articles/6598/

[Jana]

Holland has the tallest people. I know from experience. Germans are of average height.

Women yes. Men no. Dalmatians, Herzegovians and Montenegrins are slightly taller than Dutch with difference that their nutrition is still sub-optimal compared to the Dutch.
North-western Germans are tall as well. There are differences inside Netherlands too, southern Dutch are shorter, so if only northern Dutch were counted they would be maybe tallest. But unlike SW Slavs and Nilottes Dutch probably reached their genetic maximum already.

There is another group that is among world tallest and these are southern Nillotes from Africa. And their probably have highest potential for growth due to very poor living conditions they encounter.


In fact, Dalmatian boys aged 18 years (n = 839) are 183.7 cm tall (after controlling for population size in regions) which shows that they would be markedly taller than their peers in the Netherlands who reach 182.4 cm at the age of 18 years, and 183.6 cm at the age of 19 years (Schönbeck et al., 2012). The size of the Dutch samples is also quite small (only 180 males aged 18-19 years) and it is not entirely clear if the samples past high-school age (18+ years) are not artificially elevated due to the inclusion of university students (as mentioned in the ‘Methods’ section of that paper). According to Schönbeck et al. (2012), there are regional differences within the Netherlands as well, but the height of boys from the tallest northern regions is ca. 0.15 standard deviation above the mean, which is ca. 183.5 cm in 18-year olds. Besides that, Montenegrin boys may also be taller than their Dutch peers even at the country level.

[Jana]

more celtic, and celts are partly germanic. northern croats have more north Atlantic DNA than poles and Ukrainians

Celts are their own thing, just related with Germanics like Balts are with Slavs. What I meant is that high north atlantic in Kajkavian Croats mot likely comes from pre-Slavic Keltic admixed groups in the area.

[vidovic]

Celts are their own thing, just related with Germanics like Balts are with Slavs. What I meant is that high north atlantic in Kajkavian Croats mot likely comes from pre-Slavic Keltic admixed groups in the area.

i believe that the celts were south croat pre-slavic ancestors too, but just with a different genetical composition than that of kajkavian pre-slav ancestors

[vidovic]

Celts are their own thing, just related with Germanics like Balts are with Slavs. What I meant is that high north atlantic in Kajkavian Croats mot likely comes from pre-Slavic Keltic admixed groups in the area.

do you have any idea why is north croat sample on k15 a lot more northern than the one on k13? czechs are the first on their cluster in k15, not even slovenes or hungarians

[vidovic]

Celts are their own thing, just related with Germanics like Balts are with Slavs. What I meant is that high north atlantic in Kajkavian Croats mot likely comes from pre-Slavic Keltic admixed groups in the area.

do you have any idea why is north croat sample on k15 a lot more northern than the one on k13? czechs are the first on their cluster in k15, not even slovenes or hungarians

[Jana]

i believe that the celts were south croat pre-slavic ancestors too, but just with a different genetical composition than that of kajkavian pre-slav ancestors

Yes, it seems "northern Illyrians" in southern Croatia were heavily Urnfield derived and mixed with local Balkan neolithics.
Maybe that is why some people classify Liburnian/Panonnian "Illyrians" as different from proper Illyrians in the south.

But southern Croats have significant East Med/Imperial Roman like admixture on top of that. You can't model them as Slavic + Croatian IA.
Croatian IA works more as proxy for southern Austrians and Slovenians than for Dalmatians.

[knez01]

https://i.ibb.co/QkLKC6R/el-WUw-CLJ1z-G-FR0-JNWBDGTFPWD83r-Uu-D1b7smmy-Wv-DA.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

Shouldn't it be the other way around? In Croatia the more north you go the more Germanic DNA there is, but the people are also getting significantly shorter. Pic related

Also genes wise:

Target: Croat_South
Distance: 16.8620% / 16.86204257
51.2 Italian
48.8 German_Northwest

Target: Herzegovina_Croat
Distance: 17.4311% / 17.43112250
50.9 Italian
49.1 German_Northwest

Target: Croat_North
Distance: 16.6733% / 16.67330847
65.5 German_Northwest
34.5 Italian

pure Germanic DNA is clearly bigger in north Croats, but out of all Croats they're the shortest. Makes 0 sense to me.

This is very true, I spent most of my life in Zagreb/Prigorje and was usually the tallest person around(both in university and school), while the only people that were around my height were either Dalmatians from Zagora or Herzegovians, the tallest guy I have met was I think around 215+cm tall, probably more, and he was from Livno I think.

[kevinmac]

Germans are average height. Dinaric alps people are tall. But Dutch are the tallest.

[Albertón]

Selection, physical acticvity, nutrition

there was selection for tall, flat back convex nose types- who are turning themselves now into less extreme forms (Alpine-Med) but keeping the height, while Centraleuropean indeed are dominated by smaller Alpine looking people, but keep in mind Tyrolians are basically strongly DInaric too, but arent necessary tall, the same can be said for East Germany, Poles. Albanians are the most Dinaric craniometreically and the are small.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EJbqJwhUwAAQZlC.jpg

I disagree with stockiness, Montenigrinians seem stocky- mesomorph range to me and are on average very tall.

"smaller" lmao. Tall people have smaller bodies( and often smaller heads/faces as well), dummy. Sphere is the most massive form and it is characterized by being as wide as it's heght/lenght. Short people have much more chance to have bofy breadth( both forward-backward and side-to-side) proportional to the their height. Endomorphs are prooof of that.
What is long and thing have less concentrated mass. Also because of the law of gravity, having more weight makes you shorter.
Also because of the law of gravity, being thick is more robust than being tall, because what is tall have more chance to fall( look at buildings, same thing applies).
Tall height is mostly gracilization and is well known that it correlates with being ectomorph and leptomorph.
Tall height and long/thin limbs is also mostly adptation to tropical and hot climates, maybe to plains too.
It is is mostly an Ev-13 and E1b1b1 trait.
Also, alpine is a type that is both more robust and archaic in look than dinarid, there is no way dinarids are becaming less common and apines becaming more.

[CommonSense]

People keep forgetting that Czechs are tall too. Just sayin', since nobody seems to have mentioned them.

[Jana]

do you have any idea why is north croat sample on k15 a lot more northern than the one on k13? czechs are the first on their cluster in k15, not even slovenes or hungarians

Yes. Because it's made only out of Ph2ter's family members. K13 average is much more reliable.

[Benyzero]

German in genetic terms doesn't = Germanic

Enlighted norb vibes

[Not a Cop]

Sorry, but compared to European average Russians are opposite of tall.

Rather average than short. Average for Russia is stated to be 177, but for Slavic Russians it should be around 178 i guess, averages for Ukraine and Belarus is 178,5, same for Saint-Petersburg, which is still largely Russian, unlike Moscow, which is 177. Consider also that Russian likely haven't yet reached their genetic potential, considering bad climate and not optimal food supply.

[Roy]

It does not seem to be the case:



https://peerj.com/articles/6598/

What about Ghegs? Aren't they supposed to be very tall? Or is it just a wrong stereotype like I always suspected? I remember Albanian forum bragging about 'dem tall Alboz' lol but somehow most of these Albanian members themselves were of average height.

[Art23]

Interesting question. I suppose that Austrians/ SE Germanics aren't particularly tall and in addition they have not contributed much of their genes in Croatia.

[Mingle]

Greeks are taller than Russians are for example, and they are southern Europeans. Or most southern actually. Greeks are above average in stature for Europe.
Greeks are Southeast Europeans, that's why they are not short. Southwest Europeans are short by European standards though. Next would probably be British Islanders, French, and then Russians. The biggest factor here is diet and then HDI not having high proportions of certain genetic groups.

https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S1570677X16300065-gr12.jpg

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1570677X16300065

[Mingle]

Interesting question. I suppose that Austrians/ SE Germanics aren't particularly tall and in addition they have not contributed much of their genes in Croatia.
Austrians are just a Slavic, Germanic, and Celtic mix. Croats also have those components. The biggest reason for height differences is diet.

[Faklon]

Because they are vegans and they don't have to bend their heads in shame.

[HectorOfTroy]

Women yes. Men no. Dalmatians, Herzegovians and Montenegrins are slightly taller than Dutch with difference that their nutrition is still sub-optimal compared to the Dutch.
North-western Germans are tall as well. There are differences inside Netherlands too, southern Dutch are shorter, so if only northern Dutch were counted they would be maybe tallest. But unlike SW Slavs and Nilottes Dutch probably reached their genetic maximum already.

There is another group that is among world tallest and these are southern Nillotes from Africa. And their probably have highest potential for growth due to very poor living conditions they encounter.

Agreed. Nutrition standards in Germanic countries is very good (buy a loaded sandwich for the equivalent of like 4-5 Canadian dollars). Don't know alot of German-descent people where I live but from what I've seen German guys are usually in the average-above average height range (5'11 average usually), and like you said, their genetic potential is probably maxed out. The taller ones I think are the more Scandinavian influenced ones. Scandinavian Y DNA is closely related to South Slavic Y DNA btw (I1 and I2).

And yeah the Russians being tall is probably mostly portrayal from American media hyping them up. Most of the Russian/Ukrainian descent people I've met in Canada (which is very few where I live, mostly Ukrainain descent over Russian here) were definitely below average in height. Then again they also seemed to have bad nutrition. Only have seen 2 tall Russians/ukrainians here

[Dick]

Agreed. Nutrition standards in Germanic countries is very good (buy a loaded sandwich for the equivalent of like 4-5 Canadian dollars). Don't know alot of German-descent people where I live but from what I've seen German guys are usually in the average-above average height range (5'11 average usually), and like you said, their genetic potential is probably maxed out. The taller ones I think are the more Scandinavian influenced ones. Scandinavian Y DNA is closely related to South Slavic Y DNA btw (I1 and I2).

And yeah the Russians being tall is probably mostly portrayal from American media hyping them up. Most of the Russian/Ukrainian descent people I've met in Canada (which is very few where I live, mostly Ukrainain descent over Russian here) were definitely below average in height. Then again they also seemed to have bad nutrition. Only have seen 2 tall Russians/ukrainians here

I live in a region where a lot of German descent and Mennonite Canadians live, towns nearby are called Mannheim, Baden, Luxembourg etc, as well as Dutch Canadians. German descendants are of average height meanwhile the Dutch farmboys are taller than average. There was a Dutch kid I went to school with from kindergarten to grade 8 and we were both the tallest in the class through those years. They always made us stand at the back for school pictures.

I'd also say that Scottish descendants are taller than Anglos, let alone French Canadians, as well for some reason.

[HectorOfTroy]

I live in a region where a lot of German descent and Mennonite Canadians live, towns nearby are called Mannheim, Baden, Luxembourg etc, as well as Dutch Canadians. German descendants are of average height meanwhile the Dutch farmboys are taller than average. There was a Dutch kid I went to school with from kindergarten to grade 8 and we were both the tallest in the class through those years. They always made us stand at the back for school pictures.

I'd also say that Scottish descendants are taller than Anglos, let alone French Canadians, as well for some reason.

There's definitely a good chunk of guys/European ethnic group who are short on average where I live. Pretty sure it's the Irish/Scottish guys, the ones who are dark haired and dark eyed and a little bit swarthier (dylan obrien, seth macfarlane type) than the typical Anglo/Scandinavian types

[Dick]

There's definitely a good chunk of guys/European ethnic group who are short on average where I live. Pretty sure it's the Irish/Scottish guys, the ones who are dark haired and dark eyed and a little bit swarthier (dylan obrien, seth macfarlane type) than the typical Anglo/Scandinavian types

Could be. I know a Half Welsh/Danish dude and he's so scrawny and swarthy meanwhile he's the spitting image of his dad who is Welsh

[Jana]

People keep forgetting that Czechs are tall too. Just sayin', since nobody seems to have mentioned them.

Yea, that was my observation too while in Czech Republic. They are above average in height.

[Polak]

I think that the Germanic admixture in Croats is heavily over-estimated, there is no way that they have more Germanic admix than average Poles :D

In regards to the question, Germanic people aren't that tall, they're about average, Balkanites are the tallest Europeans by a long mile.