Are the Chuvash genetically related at all to Bulgarians?

[викторслава]

^ Are the Chuvash closely related genetically to Bulgarians? Bulgarians claim to be ancestors of the people of Old Great Bulgaria, which the Chuvash are direct descendants of, and even still speak an ancestor of the Turkic Bulgar language.

[Dr_Maul]

Chuvash themselves are probably mixed with neighboring Uralo-Slav people, and may not be representative for Bulgars. Anyways, here is a calc as well as some other possibilities:

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.9502% / 0.01950161
53.8 Balkans_IA
42.8 Slavic
3.4 Chuvash

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.9033% / 0.01903301
53.8 Balkans_IA
43.2 Slavic
3.0 Bashkir

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.9153% / 0.01915330
53.6 Balkans_IA
44.2 Slavic
2.2 Nogai

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.2338% / 0.01233835
50.4 Balkans_IA
39.6 Slavic
10.0 Tajik_Rushan

[vbnetkhio]

Chuvash themselves are probably mixed with neighboring Uralo-Slav people, and may not be representative for Bulgars. Anyways, here is a calc as well as some other possibilities:

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.9502% / 0.01950161
53.8 Balkans_IA
42.8 Slavic
3.4 Chuvash

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.9033% / 0.01903301
53.8 Balkans_IA
43.2 Slavic
3.0 Bashkir

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.9153% / 0.01915330
53.6 Balkans_IA
44.2 Slavic
2.2 Nogai

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.2338% / 0.01233835
50.4 Balkans_IA
39.6 Slavic
10.0 Tajik_Rushan

Those estimates look to high for Bulgarians. Do they dissapear if you add Imperial Romans?

[викторслава]

Chuvash themselves are probably mixed with neighboring Uralo-Slav people, and may not be representative for Bulgars. Anyways, here is a calc as well as some other possibilities:

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.9502% / 0.01950161
53.8 Balkans_IA
42.8 Slavic
3.4 Chuvash

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.9033% / 0.01903301
53.8 Balkans_IA
43.2 Slavic
3.0 Bashkir

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.9153% / 0.01915330
53.6 Balkans_IA
44.2 Slavic
2.2 Nogai

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.2338% / 0.01233835
50.4 Balkans_IA
39.6 Slavic
10.0 Tajik_Rushan

how many bulgarian samples did you get for this comparison?

[викторслава]

Chuvash themselves are probably mixed with neighboring Uralo-Slav people, and may not be representative for Bulgars. Anyways, here is a calc as well as some other possibilities:

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.9502% / 0.01950161
53.8 Balkans_IA
42.8 Slavic
3.4 Chuvash

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.9033% / 0.01903301
53.8 Balkans_IA
43.2 Slavic
3.0 Bashkir

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.9153% / 0.01915330
53.6 Balkans_IA
44.2 Slavic
2.2 Nogai

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.2338% / 0.01233835
50.4 Balkans_IA
39.6 Slavic
10.0 Tajik_Rushan

and where are the Slavic and Balkans_IA samples from?

[Kaspias]

No, they are not. Bulgarians have no another admixture that isolates them from the rest of the South Slav populations.

[Dr_Maul]

Those estimates look to high for Bulgarians. Do they dissapear if you add Imperial Romans?

Roman definitely nerfed it..

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.1579% / 0.01157912
46.2 Slavic
29.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial
23.6 Balkans_IA
0.6 Chuvash

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.1481% / 0.01148133
45.8 Slavic
28.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
24.8 Balkans_IA
1.0 KAZ_Saka_TianShan_IA

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.0099% / 0.01009907
43.8 Slavic
32.4 Balkans_IA
18.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
5.6 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan

[Dr_Maul]

how many bulgarian samples did you get for this comparison?

no idea its just Bulgarian average on G25

[Dr_Maul]

and where are the Slavic and Balkans_IA samples from?

Croatia IA, Bulgaria IA, and Sunghir MA from russia is what i used for slav

[викторслава]

Roman definitely nerfed it..

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.1579% / 0.01157912
46.2 Slavic
29.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial
23.6 Balkans_IA
0.6 Chuvash

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.1481% / 0.01148133
45.8 Slavic
28.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
24.8 Balkans_IA
1.0 KAZ_Saka_TianShan_IA

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.0099% / 0.01009907
43.8 Slavic
32.4 Balkans_IA
18.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
5.6 TJK_Ksirov_H_Kushan

is ITA_Rome_Imperial from the city of Rome or from the the average person in the Roman Empire?

[викторслава]

Croatia IA, Bulgaria IA, and Sunghir MA from russia is what i used for slav

ah i see, thanks

[ixulescu]

^ Are the Chuvash closely related genetically to Bulgarians? Bulgarians claim to be ancestors of the people of Old Great Bulgaria, which the Chuvash are direct descendants of, and even still speak an ancestor of the Turkic Bulgar language.

No, they're not.

All Balkanites have at least half native Balkanite ancestry (and even more among Bulgarians). That's enough to make Bulgarians and Chuvash very different.

[Arūnas]

Chuvashes 0% Paleo, so sorry

[Dr_Maul]

is ITA_Rome_Imperial from the city of Rome or from the the average person in the Roman Empire?

City of rome about 200 AD, closest to modern Sicilians and Greeks

[Mejgusu]

^ Are the Chuvash closely related genetically to Bulgarians? Bulgarians claim to be ancestors of the people of Old Great Bulgaria, which the Chuvash are direct descendants of, and even still speak an ancestor of the Turkic Bulgar language.

Nowadays Bulgarians are Slavs, but Turkic Bulgarians are according to some historians related to Cuvashes, at least Volga Tatars are descendants of Turkic Bulgars.

[vbnetkhio]

^ Are the Chuvash closely related genetically to Bulgarians? Bulgarians claim to be ancestors of the people of Old Great Bulgaria, which the Chuvash are direct descendants of, and even still speak an ancestor of the Turkic Bulgar language.

The Old Bulgar elite left a very small genetic mark on modern Bulgaria. But those 1-2 % of modern Bulgarians with Asian/Siberian related y-dna probably have close matches with the Chuvash, that's a type of close relation too.

[Kaspias]

The Old Bulgar elite left a very small genetic mark on modern Bulgaria. But those 1-2 % of modern Bulgarians with Asian/Siberian related y-dna probably have close matches with the Chuvash, that's a type of close relation too.

The Old Bulgarians were already had disappeared shortly before the 2nd Bulgarian Empire which formed by Slavs and Vlachs that using the Bulgarian name to strengthen their political power and gain legitimacy. Moreover, after collapsing of the 1st Bulgarian Empire the region around the capital was cleansed by the Byzantine, a group of the Old Bulgar elite was escaped to the North of the Danube. Another cleansing happened after Ivan Asen rebelled against the Byzantine. Then he was escaped to the Western part of the Balkan Mountains and regathered his army there(usually consisted of Vlachs despite Ivan was a Slav himself, needed to use the name Bulgar in order to rule over Vlachs), won against the Byzantine this time. However, the Bulgar people, if they somehow were able to survive in the region, were disappeared eventually. During the rule of the 2nd Bulgarian Empire and towards the end of their rule, many other migration waves from the East and North were targeted Bulgaria, and the region was settled by Cumans and Pechenegs, Cumans even became elites of the region later. Before the conquest of the Ottomans, the Northeastern region was colonized by Seljuks and newly comer colonizers mixed with the native community, which is supposedly Slavo-Cuman(for that mix, see: Gagauz). During mentioned time period Cumans and especially Pechenegs were also distributed all over Byzantine as well as Bulgaria.

After the Ottoman conquest Tatars and Turkish Yörüks were also settled in the region in masses, there are some Bulgarians have got surnames that indicate such origin. Those Tatars and Turks were Turkified like half of the Bulgarian population, as well as like 80-90% of Eastern Bulgaria. In this sense, somehow(which I believe it's impossible) Bulgar heritage is indeed acquired, it is more likely that it can be found among Balkan Turks rather than Bulgarians. In this sense I can clarify again, imagine a Bulgarian who has got an interesting HG, the first option will be listed in the order of Cuman/Pecheneg followed by Tatars and Yörüks, rather than Old Bulgar. For the same reason studies researching Old Bulgar heritage in modern Bulgarians conducted in terms of autosomal DNA is also useless, and have a specific agenda almost all the time.

[Nurzat]

Chuvash themselves are probably mixed with neighboring Uralo-Slav people, and may not be representative for Bulgars. Anyways, here is a calc as well as some other possibilities:

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.9502% / 0.01950161
53.8 Balkans_IA
42.8 Slavic
3.4 Chuvash

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.9033% / 0.01903301
53.8 Balkans_IA
43.2 Slavic
3.0 Bashkir

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.9153% / 0.01915330
53.6 Balkans_IA
44.2 Slavic
2.2 Nogai

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.2338% / 0.01233835
50.4 Balkans_IA
39.6 Slavic
10.0 Tajik_Rushan

north/northeast Romanian result (Romanians and Bulgarians largely overlap):

Target: Nurzat
Distance: 1.9909% / 0.01990926
/
63.0 Slavic:RUS_Sunghir_MA
28.8 Balkan:BGR_IA
5.8 Balkan:HRV_IA
2.4 Chuvash


Target: Nurzat
Distance: 1.9909% / 0.01990926
/
63.0 Slavic
34.6 Balkan
2.4 Chuvash

[vbnetkhio]

The Old Bulgarians were already had disappeared shortly before the 2nd Bulgarian Empire which formed by Slavs and Vlachs that using the Bulgarian name to strengthen their political power and gain legitimacy. Moreover, after collapsing of the 1st Bulgarian Empire the region around the capital was cleansed by the Byzantine, a group of the Old Bulgar elite was escaped to the North of the Danube. Another cleansing happened after Ivan Asen rebelled against the Byzantine. Then he was escaped to the Western part of the Balkan Mountains and regathered his army there(usually consisted of Vlachs despite Ivan was a Slav himself, needed to use the name Bulgar in order to rule over Vlachs), won against the Byzantine this time. However, the Bulgar people, if they somehow were able to survive in the region, were disappeared eventually. During the rule of the 2nd Bulgarian Empire and towards the end of their rule, many other migration waves from the East and North were targeted Bulgaria, and the region was settled by Cumans and Pechenegs, Cumans even became elites of the region later. Before the conquest of the Ottomans, the Northeastern region was colonized by Seljuks and newly comer colonizers mixed with the native community, which is supposedly Slavo-Cuman(for that mix, see: Gagauz). During mentioned time period Cumans and especially Pechenegs were also distributed all over Byzantine as well as Bulgaria.

After the Ottoman conquest Tatars and Turkish Yörüks were also settled in the region in masses, there are some Bulgarians have got surnames that indicate such origin. Those Tatars and Turks were Turkified like half of the Bulgarian population, as well as like 80-90% of Eastern Bulgaria. In this sense, somehow(which I believe it's impossible) Bulgar heritage is indeed acquired, it is more likely that it can be found among Balkan Turks rather than Bulgarians. In this sense I can clarify again, imagine a Bulgarian who has got an interesting HG, the first option will be listed in the order of Cuman/Pecheneg followed by Tatars and Yörüks, rather than Old Bulgar. For the same reason studies researching Old Bulgar heritage in modern Bulgarians conducted in terms of autosomal DNA is also useless, and have a specific agenda almost all the time.
Well, there's that West Bulgarian probably in the same Q subclade with an Old Bulgar sample, so there is at least some actual Bulgar y-dna among Bulgarians.

I agree with your point though, and some of the Asian yDna in Bulgarians could be from even older groups like the Scytho-Sarmatians.

[Nurzat]

it seems Eastern Balkanites are part Tajik :coffee:

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.1644% / 0.01164351
/
48.4 Balkan
40.4 Slavic
11.2 Tajik_Yagnobi

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.1644% / 0.01164351
/
47.0 Balkan:BGR_IA
40.4 Slavic:RUS_Sunghir_MA
11.2 Tajik_Yagnobi
1.4 Balkan:HRV_IA

Target: Nurzat
Distance: 1.5146% / 0.01514624
/
60.8 Slavic
30.2 Balkan
9.0 Tajik_Yagnobi


Target: Nurzat
Distance: 1.5146% / 0.01514624
/
60.8 Slavic:RUS_Sunghir_MA
25.2 Balkan:BGR_IA
9.0 Tajik_Yagnobi
5.0 Balkan:HRV_IA

[Kaspias]

Well, there's that West Bulgarian probably in the same Q subclade with an Old Bulgar sample, so there is at least some actual Bulgar y-dna among Bulgarians.

I agree with your point though, and some of the Asian yDna in Bulgarians could be from even older groups like the Scytho-Sarmatians.

Carlos removed it from his spreadsheet. The rest of the samples are still present. Wonder what is going on with that article.


SEEurope9 OnlineReport 42.6073975 25.4856617 Q1a2a Q1a2 Q1a-L712 Q-L712 Q-L712 https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/Q;name=Q-L712 Q-L712 https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L712/ Q1a2a Q Q1a ReichLab2020(SE_Europe) 9th century 850 800 900 Bulgaria_EMA Old Bulgar / Avar (Central Bulgaria) Bulgaria


Instead, added this:


120182 Q-L56* https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L56*/ Q-M242>MEH2>M346 ReichLab2020(SE_Europe) -2700 -3100 -2100 Balkans_EBA Bulgaria_EBA_MBA Bulgaria_EBA_MBA Kapitan Andreevo

[Abriekman]

The most interesting thing in Gagauzes and Bulgarians I noticed, that they have West Asian Iranian-like admixture, which other Balkanites do not have

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 0.9762% / 0.00976176 | R4P
47.2 Ukrainian
39.2 BGR_IA
8.6 Iranian_Zoroastrian
5.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia

Target: Serbian
Distance: 0.7901% / 0.00790098 | R4P
60.2 Ukrainian
33.0 BGR_IA
5.8 Greek_Cappadocia
1.0 Iranian_Zoroastrian


Target: Albanian
Distance: 1.4428% / 0.01442809 | R4P
49.0 BGR_IA
31.2 Ukrainian
18.2 Greek_Central_Anatolia
1.6 Greek_Cappadocia

Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 1.2470% / 0.01247042 | R4P
42.2 BGR_IA
33.2 Ukrainian
23.0 Greek_Central_Anatolia
1.6 Iranian_Zoroastrian

Gagauzes have even more, check

Target: Gagauz
Distance: 1.1002% / 0.01100178
45.0 Ukrainian
32.8 BGR_IA
12.2 Armenian
5.2 Iranian_Mazandarani
4.8 Greek_Central_Anatolia

[викторслава]

it seems Eastern Balkanites are part Tajik :coffee:

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.1644% / 0.01164351
/
48.4 Balkan
40.4 Slavic
11.2 Tajik_Yagnobi

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.1644% / 0.01164351
/
47.0 Balkan:BGR_IA
40.4 Slavic:RUS_Sunghir_MA
11.2 Tajik_Yagnobi
1.4 Balkan:HRV_IA

Target: Nurzat
Distance: 1.5146% / 0.01514624
/
60.8 Slavic
30.2 Balkan
9.0 Tajik_Yagnobi


Target: Nurzat
Distance: 1.5146% / 0.01514624
/
60.8 Slavic:RUS_Sunghir_MA
25.2 Balkan:BGR_IA
9.0 Tajik_Yagnobi
5.0 Balkan:HRV_IA

most likely from some shared Sarmato-Scythian heritage, Phillip II of Macedon even fought with the Scythians in modern day Dobruja

[vbnetkhio]

Carlos removed it from his spreadsheet. The rest of the samples are still present. Wonder what is going on with that article.


SEEurope9 OnlineReport 42.6073975 25.4856617 Q1a2a Q1a2 Q1a-L712 Q-L712 Q-L712 https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/Q;name=Q-L712 Q-L712 https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L712/ Q1a2a Q Q1a ReichLab2020(SE_Europe) 9th century 850 800 900 Bulgaria_EMA Old Bulgar / Avar (Central Bulgaria) Bulgaria


Instead, added this:


120182 Q-L56* https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L56*/ Q-M242>MEH2>M346 ReichLab2020(SE_Europe) -2700 -3100 -2100 Balkans_EBA Bulgaria_EBA_MBA Bulgaria_EBA_MBA Kapitan Andreevo


That's weird, the original assignment was a leak from Reich Lab, so he must've gotten some additional info to change it now

[Kaspias]

most likely from some shared Sarmato-Scythian heritage, Phillip II of Macedon even fought with the Scythians in modern day Dobruja

No, that's related to population movements that took place afterward. Thracians(BGR IA-like) were already mongrelized by quarter a million Anatolian population settled in the region before Slavs are settled. After Slavs begin to settle, the influx continued, and that's how Bogomilism appeared. Gagauz, living in the Easternmost corner of Bulgaria, was most influenced by these movements. As you go West the Mesopotamian influence will reduce.

[bained]

LMAO, I hope not.

[Abriekman]

Well, Bulgarians and Gagauzes show this Asian admixture, unlike Greeks or Serbs, but it is only very small trace percentage, definitely there was Bulgar influence, but it was small. In reality they descended like 3-4% from Bulgars if they show 1.5% East Asian in this model.

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 1.0395% / 0.01039506
52.0 Ukrainian
27.4 BGR_IA
19.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
1.6 Uygur


Target: Gagauz
Distance: 1.1363% / 0.01136267
52.6 Ukrainian
34.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
11.4 BGR_IA
1.4 Uygur


Target: Greek_Thessaly
Distance: 1.5736% / 0.01573617
35.4 Ukrainian
32.6 BGR_IA
32.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA


Target: Greek_Central_Macedonia
Distance: 1.0073% / 0.01007340
40.4 Ukrainian
32.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
27.6 BGR_IA


Target: Serbian
Distance: 0.7757% / 0.00775744
62.6 Ukrainian
27.8 BGR_IA
9.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

[Roy]

No, that's related to population movements that took place afterward. Thracians(BGR IA-like) were already mongrelized by quarter a million Anatolian population settled in the region before Slavs are settled. After Slavs begin to settle, the influx continued, and that's how Bogomilism appeared. Gagauz, living in the Easternmost corner of Bulgaria, was most influenced by these movements. As you go West the Mesopotamian influence will reduce.

Maybe? But you cannot tell for sure. I suspect it is Scythian though.

[PAGANE]

There is no reference sample / samples with proven archeological affiliation to the Bulgarians of the 7th-9th century, with which to compare the modern Bulgarians and the Chuvash. Until such samples are genetically tested, any comparisons are meaningless.

[Kaspias]

Maybe? But you cannot tell for sure. I suspect it is Scythian though.

Well, other examples of such genetic influx into the communities which date the same as Scythians suggest that these admixtures are washed out already. On the other side, the early medieval migrations are better documented and date to a more recent period that provides a greater possibility for the explanation above. Otherwise, there is no 100% truth in genetics.