'Lowland Scots was the ruin of Scotland'

[Albion]

The various ancient dialects of English which developed in the north of Britain were the ruin of Scotland. I do not see them as constituting a separate language from English any more than Northumbrian English.

They are ultimately connected with English identity and in a way have got a cheek calling themselves 'Scots'. The people who spoke Lowland 'Scots' considered themselves English and English-speaking right up until the wars of independence, and then they started considering themselves Scots, and a couple of centuries after that, had the cheek to call the real Scots 'Irish' while becoming Anglicised again themselves and ultimately ending up with a leadership who voted for union with - guess who - England.

The whole concept of calling an Anglo-Saxon dialect 'the Scots language' is ultimately a betrayal of Scotland to English culture, language and political agenda. The true Scots language is Gaelic (Scot comes from the latin word for a Gael and Ireland was called Scotia in Latin).

Lowland Scots didn't give the Scottish people a strong identity and it never will. It will just keep us tied to the matron's apron. Our true allegiance as a Scottish nation is not to the English Lothians/Northumbria but to Scottish Dàl Riada. Without the Scots of Dàl Riada, there would be no country called Scotland in the north of Britain and the whole island of Britain may have ended up being called England. In fact, since the decline of the Gaelic language, lots of foreigners naturally do just call the whole island England. That in itself speaks volumes.

Even today it is only the Gaelic speaking community, not the Lowland 'Scots' speakers, who make serious attempts to provide education through their own language. It makes sense that the revival of Gaelic education occurs alongside better education in Scottish history, political devolution and calls for independence. You will never see education through 'Scots' because it is too tied to English culture.

A true Scot (or Irishman) should cotton on to this, change his linguistic allegiances and learn Gaelic. Modern English should ultimately have the same position in Scotland and Ireland that it has in Norway or Sweden - fluently spoken as the 'lingua franca' but not replacing domestic Scottish and Irish culture which is ultimately Gaelic in origin.

If Gaelic had held its ground in Scotland and if Northumbrian had never spread, then today we would have had centuries of building up a strong native market. There would be much more work in publishing houses, theatre companies and the media to feed the demand for native language material, as in other European countries today. We would be watching many more of our own news programmes, documentaries, drama series, comedies, entertainment programmes and so on in our own language, as elsewhere in Europe, less dominated by the English cultural and political agenda. Native sports would actually get more airtime. There would be considerably more work for native writers and performers in theatres and concert halls around the country, as in other European countries. Ask a non-English foreigner.

It's no accident that the first regular Scottish European cultural affairs programme, Eòrpa, was created by Gaels. It's also no surprise that Gaels broadcast all the Scottish football games no other broadcaster will show. The so-called 'Scots' speakers all complain about this of course and wonder why such programmes aren't being broadcast in English. They're making the wrong complaint. Change your language from Lowland 'Scots' to Gaelic, add to the growing numbers of children learning Gaelic, and you'll be surprised how less marginalised you'll feel as a Scot. Phone-in shows would be filled with Scottish people speaking and giving their views. The people of Glasgow would actually hear Aberdonians on TV regularly.

It's time that Scotland stopped hanging on fearfully to the strings of its new mummy, England. It's time Scotland grew up and lived as an adult on the European scene, learning from its own mistakes, earning its own income for sure and learning to live on it.

http://www.scotland.com/forums/language/26886-lowland-scots-ruin-scotland.html

What are your thoughts on this?

Also note this isn't my personal opinion, I just stumbled upon this thread.

[Albion]

I don't think it was. For a long time the Lowlands and Highlands were to separate places all together, it was only when the Scots united against the English and latter mixed with the clearances that a unified Scottish identity was born.
This identity borrows elements from both lowlands and highlands I believe and the lowlands have been very influential in the formation of Scotland and has been the birth places of many of it's greatest sons.

The highlands to me represents the romantic image of Scotland, the Scotland that appeals to tourists and to the Scottish image of themselves.
But with the coming together of both areas I suspect most Scots will have both Lowland and Highland lineages anyway if they look back far enough.

Scots gave Scotland a great literary tradition which hasn't been surpassed by Gaelic.
I think denying the Anglian input in Scotland is stupid, if one ignores this then they're abandoning a large part of their history.
The Anglians made lowland Scotland how it is in the same way that the norse shaped the islands.

A personal theory of mine, unprovable, is that the Scottish national identity didn't just flare up with the wars of independence but instead predates them.
I think it formed as a reaction to the unification of England under Wessex - Northumbrian die-hards not wanting Southern rule (like modern Scottish people :D ) or maybe latter as Anglo-Saxons showing animosity towards the by then Norman-controlled England.

Theories, theories....

Anyway, I'll conclude that I think the views of that poster are plain stupid.

[Beorn]

The Scottish are schizophrenics. If I was to go in there to claim the land and people that have been so harmful to "Celtic Scotland" then you'd soon see the opposite stance forming.

[Stars Down To Earth]

Lowland Scots are Scotland, or at least, the majority of it. So don't be so judging of us, Albion. :tongue


The Scottish are schizophrenics. If I was to go in there to claim the land and people that have been so harmful to "Celtic Scotland" then you'd soon see the opposite stance forming.
Aye, that's usually the case. National schizophrenia is a good way to describe it. It's quite ironic, but not surprising at all, that the (mainly Germanic) Lowland Scots have adopted this romanticised "Gaelic culture" bullshit which is a grotesque parody of the Highland tribes we destroyed...only in order to distance ourselves from the English. An ethnic group we have more in common with than any other group in the world.

That's Scotland for you. When the English say sugar, the Scots say shite.

[Troll's Puzzle]

What are your thoughts on this?



Brnicija je Anglija! :rant:http://forums.skadi.net/images/smilies/skadi_forum/hitler00.gif

[Osweo]

Anschluss NAU!

[Zephyr]

At the end of the week, I guess the only thing that matters is who tops the scottish football league — Celtic or Rangers? quite representative of scottish national identity: one of them is pro-Ireland the other pro-UK. None pro-Scotland. Weird folks.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the gaelic element is also NOT native of Scotland.

[Stars Down To Earth]

At the end of the week, I guess the only thing that matters is who tops the scottish football league — Celtic or Rangers?
This is typical of Scots - turning everything into politics, including innocent things like sports. Football-as-a-substitute-for-war is actually common in all European countries with identity problems or seething tensions between two ethnic groups (Scotland doesn't really have this, but many Scots like to be at war constantly, so they invent excuses).


quite representative of scottish national identity: one of them is pro-Ireland the other pro-UK. None pro-Scotland. Weird folks.
It's indeed representative of our cultural identity schizophrenia: is Scotland an Irish/Catholic/Celtic country or a British/Protestant/Germanic one?

Even I fall into this trap, being a Hearts supporter from childhood. :tongue I don't give a fuck about retarded football politics - barely anyone takes it seriously anymore - but it's just the team I've cheered on since I was a wee kid. No reason to stop now. :tongue

(For those who don't know - the two big football teams of Glasgow, Edinburgh and Dundee all follow this ethno-cultural divide. Celtics, Hibernian FC and Dundee United were all founded in the 19th century by Irish immigrants. The Saxon-Norman derived counterparts in those cities are the Glasgow Rangers, Hearts of Midlothian, and Dundee FC.)

[Magister Eckhart]

As a descendant of a Lowland Scots noble family who fought against the invading Cromwellian forces, I say this attack on the Scots language is an attack on Scottish history.

[Osweo]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the gaelic element is also NOT native of Scotland.
By THOSE standards, the English are not native to England! :D Scotland is only CALLED 'Scotland' cos of these Gaels.

I didn't read the shite in the opening post's quote, but IF Lowlanders have ruined Scotland, then it's purely the fault of the Gaels themselves, for annexing so much Anglo-Cumbrian territory. :p Or for letting their Kings get so anglicised.

As a descendant of a Lowland Scots noble family who fought against the invading Cromwellian forces, I say this attack on the Scots language is an attack on Scottish history.
As a descendant of a Lowland Scotch peasant family who used to make Magister Eckhart's ancestors' porridge and wipe their arses for them, I say this attack on the Scots 'language' is an affront to Bernician sentiment and demand reparations!

AND Berwickshire! :grumpy:

[antonio]

Some years, ago, at knowing Scot existence, I got a text on it and, frankly, it seemed to me just dialectal English written in an alternative way. At Spain full languages with further distance from Spanish (like the Aragonese spoken for half of my XIXth ancestors) are denied as independent entities for many with no remorse at all, even in their craddle lands.:D

In addition it's really a pity that original Celtic languages from Scotland, probably fair different from Gaelic have dissapeared without a trace.

Hence my conclusion is that current Scotland main diferential factor from England is a dirty viscose liquid very used as energy source. :D

[Albion]

By THOSE standards, the English are not native to England! :D Scotland is only CALLED 'Scotland' cos of these Gaels.

Yeah, really if it wasn't for the invasions of the Dark Ages there'd be none of the ethnicities there are no apart from perhaps the Irish.
Incoming Germanics set in motion the formation of England, Gaels in Scotland and the English also indirectly helped form the Welsh by confining the British Celtic culture to Cambria, Cornwall and formerly Rheged and Strathclyde too. :rolleyes:


I didn't read the shite in the opening post's quote, but IF Lowlanders have ruined Scotland, then it's purely the fault of the Gaels themselves, for annexing so much Anglo-Cumbrian territory. :p Or for letting their Kings get so anglicised.

Yeah, we want Lothian back!


As a descendant of a Lowland Scotch peasant family who used to make Magister Eckhart's ancestors' porridge and wipe their arses for them, I say this attack on the Scots 'language' is an affront to Bernician sentiment and demand reparations!

:D

Without the Gaelic and Germanic invasions, Picts would probably still exist in Scotland and Britons in Lowland Scotland, England and Wales, probably still divided though by political boundaries.
The Lowland Scots probably aren't pure Anglian anyway, no doubt there'll be some of the Britons in their ancestry.
Bernicia and Deira and Northumbria as a whole were never noted for their Anglo-Saxon purity, quite the opposite.
Lowland Scotland and Northern England's Marches will be much the same genealogically - Angles and assimilated Cumbric-speaking Britons.

[Albion]

Some years, ago, at knowing Scot existence, I got a text on it and, frankly, it seemed to me just dialectal English written in an alternative way.

That is basically what it is. It's a collection of Northern English dialects written phonetically, not forced into the rigid spelling systems of Southern English dialects which set the standard of writing.
Because it's classed as a separate language they can write it however they feel like even if it does just look like dyslexic English sometimes. :D

[antonio]

That is basically what it is. It's a collection of Northern English dialects written phonetically, not forced into the rigid spelling systems of Southern English dialects which set the standard of writing.


It's curious how all languages at British isles (as Celtics as Germanics) suffered since early Middle Ages massive processes of fonetic alterations whilst caused big gaps between speech and writing. Unfortunatelly we will never known the factors who operated. :coffee:



Because it's classed as a separate language they can write it however they
feel like even if it does just look like dyslexic English sometimes. :D

Maybe it's worth to mention that many foreigner users of English (not only dislexics in our native languages:D ) are really fed up with all your complexities (even at Greek loans your scholars kept i.e. etimological PH instead of F, or TH instead of T) ....so, in fact i recall i then think of it, maybe will be worth abandoning the English of the Queen for the easier and more natural Scot, and is almost relieving that at least your dislexicals relatives consider your writing difficult (WTF not simply F) as hell :D

[Allenson]

Hmm, interesting position the author takes here. Couple lines that really stood out to me:


The people who spoke Lowland 'Scots' considered themselves English and English-speaking

English speaking maybe but I very much doubt that the Scots speakers of yore thought of themelves as English. That sounds just plain silly to me.

And this one:


Without the Scots of Dàl Riada, there would be no country called Scotland in the north of Britain

No, it might still be called Pictland.

Did Trog write that? ;) (Actually, I think she identifies with the Picts as well as the Dal Riada Scots...)

[Albion]

It's curious how all languages at British isles (as Celtics as Germanics) suffered since early Middle Ages massive processes of fonetic alterations whilst caused big gaps between speech and writing. Unfortunatelly we will never known the factors who operated. :coffee:



Maybe it's worth to mention that many foreigner users of English (not only dislexics in our native languages:D ) are really fed up with all your complexities (even at Greek loans your scholars kept i.e. etimological PH instead of F, or TH instead of T) ....so, in fact i recall i then think of it, maybe will be worth abandoning the English of the Queen for the easier and more natural Scot, and is almost relieving that at least your dislexicals relatives consider your writing difficult (WTF not simply F) as hell :D

Well it was standardised by stuck-up educated rich people, so they made it quirky to suit their own interest.

French loan words go against English norms too, like 'champagne', in English it should be rendered as 'cham-pag-un' or something like that, instead it becomes more like 'sham-pain' when it is spelt nothing like that. :D

We nees a simpler system, I agree. Just not Scots.

I quite like Middle English - you really see a lot of development in it as well as features modern English has sadly lost and there's a lot of differences between dialects too.
A feature English has largely lost which I like is word endings such as '-en' and '-eth' - "He spoketh".

Modern standard English mainly evolved from London speech derived from the South and East Midlands, but in a few cases some Northern dialect features prevailed.
I read a good book about it, I think it was called 'The stories of English'.

I think we should go back to middle English, a better version of the language altogether.

Modern and Middle English are the same language, Old English is drastically different, alien almost alien sadly.

We should go back to the speech of Shakespear and Chaucer!

[Albion]

It's curious how all languages at British isles (as Celtics as Germanics) suffered since early Middle Ages massive processes of fonetic alterations whilst caused big gaps between speech and writing. Unfortunatelly we will never known the factors who operated. :coffee:



Maybe it's worth to mention that many foreigner users of English (not only dislexics in our native languages:D ) are really fed up with all your complexities (even at Greek loans your scholars kept i.e. etimological PH instead of F, or TH instead of T) ....so, in fact i recall i then think of it, maybe will be worth abandoning the English of the Queen for the easier and more natural Scot, and is almost relieving that at least your dislexicals relatives consider your writing difficult (WTF not simply F) as hell :D

[Graham]

By THOSE standards, the English are not native to England! :D Scotland is only CALLED 'Scotland' cos of these Gaels.

I didn't read the shite in the opening post's quote, but IF Lowlanders have ruined Scotland, then it's purely the fault of the Gaels themselves, for annexing so much Anglo-Cumbrian territory. :p Or for letting their Kings get so anglicised.


Yep, Saint Margaret of Scotland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Margaret_of_Scotland) or Margaret of Wessex and Queen Margaret of Scotland Being a good example. She done alot for the country.


The ruin of Scotland was the Darien Scheme. Taking woolen bonnets to Panama. jesus! Bunch of fools. :mad::mad::mad: :D

[Osweo]

English speaking maybe but I very much doubt that the Scots speakers of yore thought of themelves as English. That sounds just plain silly to me.

It wasn't 'Scots' in 'Yore'. They called it 'English', using spellings like 'Inglis' and were quite straightforward about it until the early modern period.

From 500 till 933 there was NO question about their Englishness, of course! Northern England's greatest saint was from the Lammermuirs, after all.

[Albion]

The ruin of Scotland was the Darien Scheme. Taking woolen bonnets to Panama. jesus! Bunch of fools. :mad::mad::mad: :D

Agreed.

I'm sure the Kuna natives would have loved them in the tropical climate. :D

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuna_people

The Kuna somehow have a swastika flag which they claim to be an ancient symbol of theirs too! (scroll down):

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuna_Yala

[Osweo]

The Kuna somehow have a swastika flag which they claim to be an ancient symbol of theirs too! (scroll down):

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuna_Yala

Obviously the Jocks got their arses kicked by troo Aryan warriors. :chin:

[Allenson]

It wasn't 'Scots' in 'Yore'. They called it 'English', using spellings like 'Inglis' and were quite straightforward about it until the early modern period.

Ineed, I've seen 'Inglis' before. I only used 'Scots' in the modern sense for convenience. I still doubt that an 'Inglis' speaker from Perth say, would've thought of himself as English anymore than one does today.

Northumbrian certainly made its way north as a language but there was nothing along the lines of a population replacement. A melding along the borders and probably up to the Forth/Clyde line, but that's about it.

[Osweo]

Ineed, I've seen 'Inglis' before. I only used 'Scots' in the modern sense for convenience. I still doubt that an 'Inglis' speaker from Perth say, would've thought of himself as English anymore than one does today.
Perth is one thing, Haddington another, and Coldingham quite another again, though!

Perth is right in Pictland. The other two are solidly in Bernicia, and even have names that are English as hell. One can assume that memory of Northumbria did not disappear overnight in these places, especially given the cults of the royal Saints there whose stories would have kept it alive if nothing else did.

I suppose that later on, Northumbria was abandoned as an identifier when it became hopeless to hope of resurrection of the Old England, and the new Norman England being so busy flinging raid after raid at the territory of the people there. 'Orphaned' in a way, they had little course else but to side with the Gaelic power, but in doing so they made it their own, anyway. Hehe, put like that, the initial article has some sense, despite the irony of it being written in English, probably BY a Lowlander (if not some Irish traitor!?). Perhaps Scotland would be better looked at as the heir to that Bernician rump than Dal Riada... :chin:


Northumbrian certainly made its way north as a language but there was nothing along the lines of a population replacement. A melding along the borders and probably up to the Forth/Clyde line, but that's about it.
You could say that for much of England proper, though.

A Cumbrian is no different in terms of deep ancestry to his neighbour immediately across the Solway.

[Duckelf]

There is no good reason to consider Gaelic as the more 'native' language than Scots or English, both languages came from peoples from overseas at around the same time.

This is just a silly tcheuchter making a fuss.

It was the Lowland Scots who achieved the most for Scotland.