I reject your Noahide Laws

[Loki]

Because Jesus Christ is my God and my King, and I will serve him only.

[Mont]

Ok.

[Longbowman]

You would only need to adhere to them if you lived in a hypothetical country run in accordance with Halakha. We don't care what you do in your own country.

But you probably do them anyway, the laws are:

-Be a monotheist
-Do not blaspheme
-Do not commit murder
-Do not torture animals
-Do not steal
-Do not have sex outside of a heterosexual marriage/support the nuclear family
-Establish and adhere to courts of law

So as you can see any good Christian and Muslim is in fact following the Noahide laws at all times, unless you think the Trinity contravenes rule 1.

[Mixdguy17]

But the Noahide laws pretty much align with Christianity/Catholicism laws, so what's wrong with it?.

[Loki]

You would only need to adhere to them if you lived in a hypothetical country run in accordance with Halakha. We don't care what you do in your own country.

But you probably do them anyway, the laws are:

-Be a monotheist
-Do not blaspheme
-Do not commit murder
-Do not torture animals
-Do not steal
-Do not have sex outside of a heterosexual marriage/support the nuclear family
-Establish and adhere to courts of law

So as you can see any good Christian and Muslim is in fact following the Noahide laws at all times, unless you think the Trinity contravenes rule 1.

I've heard Jewish rabbis say that Christians fall foul of the Noahide laws because they believe that Jesus is God -- something that Jews don't recognize, even strongly oppose. But if a Christian doesn't believe in that, he has forfeited the most fundamental and important belief in Christianity.

[Longbowman]

I've heard Jewish rabbis say that Christians fall foul of the Noahide laws because they believe that Jesus is God -- something that Jews don't recognize, even strongly oppose. But if a Christian doesn't believe in that, he has forfeited the most fundamental and important belief in Christianity.

There is an argument, as I said, that Trinitarianism (but not Unitarianism) is idolatrous - however, as I say, the Noahide laws only apply to foreigners residing in Israelite lands, so you don't need to follow them anyway.

Some Christians reject the idea of Jesus as God though.

[Flub]

I wouldn't have a problem with the noahide laws, atleast if it allowed me to not believe in a god. Then, to me there would be no point going any further. None.

[Komintasavalta]

So as you can see any good Christian and Muslim is in fact following the Noahide laws at all times, unless you think the Trinity contravenes rule 1.

Christianity is considered idolatry: http://noahide.com/index.htm, http://stopnoahidelaw.com/2020/10/01/is-christianity-considered-idolatry-under-noahide-law/.

The sublaws relating to the law against idolatry are covered on this page: http://www.hasidicuniversity.org/index.php?page=hu_theocracy/th01_idolatry.htm.

An example of the sublaw "To acknowledge G-d's unity (that He is only One, and Infinite)" is "To reject any belief in a 'trinity.'", with the following sources (http://www.hasidicuniversity.org/index.php?page=hu_theocracy/mitzvah_profile.php?mitzvah=2):


Rambam, Mishneh Torah, Avodas Kochavim 9:4 - Christian gentiles are idolaters.
Rambam, Mishneh Torah, Maachalos Asuros 11:7; 13:11 - Muslim gentiles are not idolaters (as opposed to Christians).
Rambam, Mishneh Torah, Avodas Kochavim 1:1 - The original belief in other powers as partners of G-d was a "huge mistake" by gentiles.
Kli Yakar, Shemos 20:8 - Having no false gods before G-d (mitzvah -1) was also addressed to gentiles, and they are obligated in it.
Rashi, Devarim 6:4 - The "Shma" (the source of this mitzvah) refers to gentiles ultimately accepting the unity of G-d.

First source (https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/912368/jewish/Avodat-Kochavim-Chapter-Nine.htm#v4): "The Canaanites are idol worshipers, and Sunday is their festival. Accordingly, in Eretz Yisrael, it is forbidden to conduct transactions with them on Thursday and Friday each and every week, and, needless to say, on Sunday itself, when transactions with them are forbidden everywhere."

Second source, 11:7 (https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/968267/jewish/Maachalot-Assurot-Chapter-11.htm): "With regard to any gentile who does not serve false deities, e.g., the Arabs:[23] It is forbidden to drink his wine, but it is permitted to benefit from it. The Geonim rule in this manner. With regard to those who worship false deities,[24] by contrast, it is forbidden to benefit from their ordinary wine."

Second source, 13:11 (https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/968269/jewish/Maachalot-Assurot-Chapter-13.htm): "It appears to me that anywhere in this context that we have stated that our wine is forbidden to be drunk, but it is permitted to benefit from it because of the possibility that a gentile touched it, we are speaking about an instance where the gentile is an idolater. If, however, the prohibition has arisen because of a gentile who is not an idolater, e.g., an Arab,21 who touched our wine unintentionally or tapped the top of a barrel,22 [the wine] is permitted to be drunken. Similar laws apply in all analogous situations."

[Longbowman]

Christianity is considered idolatry: http://noahide.com/index.htm, http://stopnoahidelaw.com/2020/10/01/is-christianity-considered-idolatry-under-noahide-law/.

The sublaws relating to the law against idolatry are covered on this page: http://www.hasidicuniversity.org/index.php?page=hu_theocracy/th01_idolatry.htm.

An example of the sublaw "To acknowledge G-d's unity (that He is only One, and Infinite)" is "To reject any belief in a 'trinity.'", with the following sources (http://www.hasidicuniversity.org/index.php?page=hu_theocracy/mitzvah_profile.php?mitzvah=2):


Rambam, Mishneh Torah, Avodas Kochavim 9:4 - Christian gentiles are idolaters.
Rambam, Mishneh Torah, Maachalos Asuros 11:7; 13:11 - Muslim gentiles are not idolaters (as opposed to Christians).
Rambam, Mishneh Torah, Avodas Kochavim 1:1 - The original belief in other powers as partners of G-d was a "huge mistake" by gentiles.
Kli Yakar, Shemos 20:8 - Having no false gods before G-d (mitzvah -1) was also addressed to gentiles, and they are obligated in it.
Rashi, Devarim 6:4 - The "Shma" (the source of this mitzvah) refers to gentiles ultimately accepting the unity of G-d.

First source (https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/912368/jewish/Avodat-Kochavim-Chapter-Nine.htm#v4): "The Canaanites are idol worshipers, and Sunday is their festival. Accordingly, in Eretz Yisrael, it is forbidden to conduct transactions with them on Thursday and Friday each and every week, and, needless to say, on Sunday itself, when transactions with them are forbidden everywhere."

Second source, 11:7 (https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/968267/jewish/Maachalot-Assurot-Chapter-11.htm): "With regard to any gentile who does not serve false deities, e.g., the Arabs:[23] It is forbidden to drink his wine, but it is permitted to benefit from it. The Geonim rule in this manner. With regard to those who worship false deities,[24] by contrast, it is forbidden to benefit from their ordinary wine."

Second source, 13:11 (https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/968269/jewish/Maachalot-Assurot-Chapter-13.htm): "It appears to me that anywhere in this context that we have stated that our wine is forbidden to be drunk, but it is permitted to benefit from it because of the possibility that a gentile touched it, we are speaking about an instance where the gentile is an idolater. If, however, the prohibition has arisen because of a gentile who is not an idolater, e.g., an Arab,21 who touched our wine unintentionally or tapped the top of a barrel,22 [the wine] is permitted to be drunken. Similar laws apply in all analogous situations."


So as you can see any good Christian and Muslim is in fact following the Noahide laws at all times, unless you think the Trinity contravenes rule 1.

Thank you for expanding on what I literally just said in the comment you were replying to.

Maimonides was very firm about Trinitarianism being idolatry but his work is not canonical and until very recently rationalist Judaism was explicitly rejected by a majority of the Jewish world. Maimonides had fled Catholic Spain for the Muslim world, so you can see where he was coming from. He has recently gotten broader acceptance but his opinions, whilst influential, are simply not the law.

Some Christians are not Trinitarians anyway - Trinitarianism is dominant today but this was not always so. So, no, it is not correct to say that Christianity is considered idolatrous, but more that many authors would consider Trinitarianism idolatrous.

Either way you can follow whatever laws you like in your own countries, we don't convert by the sword unlike certain religions.

[Komintasavalta]

Thank you for expanding on what I literally just said in the comment you were replying to.

Maimonides also said that Christians are idolaters for the reason that they "make the claim of a messiah" (https://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/opinions/maimonides-islam-good-christianity-bad-muslims-bad-christians-good/2013/11/15/):


Halachically, Maimonides says in three distinct places that the Christians are idol worshippers.

1. In his interpretation of the Mishna, tractate Avoda Zara 1:3, he writes: "Know that this Christian nation, who are making the claim of a messiah, with all their many different sects, are all idol worshippers and all their holidays are forbidden, and we deal with them regarding religious issues as we would pagans."

And he adds (AZ 4): "Therefore one must know that in every one of the Christian nation's cities which has an altar, meaning their house of worship, it is a pagan house of idolatry without any doubt."

2. In the uncensored version of Hayad Hachazaka (Hilchot Avoda Zara 9:4), Maimonides issues the edict: "The Christians are idol worshipers and Sunday is their religious holiday, therefore in Eretz Israel we may not trade with them on Thursday and Friday of every week, and needless to say on Sunday, which is forbidden [for trade with Christians] everywhere." Trade in this context refers especially to paying back loans, which would enhance their joy on the day of their idol.

3. Also in Hayad Hachazaka, the laws of forbidden foods, the uncensored version (Hilchot Maachalot Asurot 11:7): "The Christians are idol worshippers and their regular wine if forbidden to be consumed" by Jews since it is likely to be used as libation in their pagan service.

Also for example the sublaw 313 "No adding to the written or oral Torah" is described as "Not to change the teachings of the Torah by adding things it does not contain. G-d's Word was revealed to Moses in two components: the Written Word, preserved as the Hebrew Scriptures, and the Spoken Word, preserved in the Holy Talmud, the Kabbalah, and other rabbinical writings. A gentile who teaches a false Torah is subject to death by the hands of G-d." (http://www.hasidicuniversity.org/index.php?page=hu_theocracy/mitzvah_profile.php?mitzvah=-313) Its mandated punishment is listed as "Death from Heaven". An example of the law includes "Not to accept the Veda, the New Testament, the Quran, or the Book of Mormon as legitimate revelations."

[Longbowman]

rambling

See above, already dealt with this. You don't need to expand further on Maimonides. I assure you I am more familiar with his work than you are and the fact he believed trinitarianism was idolatry is not in question. However, I've already explained why his opinions do not mean Judaism as a whole considers Christianity to be idolatrous, although, as stated before you entered the thread, some people do share that opinion, which is valid, but far from universal.

[Mortimer]

I think Noahide laws are cool except that it can be problematic with Trinity and Monotheism. But the Christian idea of themselfes is that they are monotheists and that there is only 1 God but has 3 personas, like H2O water can be fluid, gas or ice, but it is H20 like a human is one person but has spirit, body and soul. We can observe the trinity in all creation.

[Mortimer]

Trinity is monotheistic even if Jews and Muslims reject it as idolatry. Christians consider themselves monotheistic and believe that there is only one God, but that he has 3 persons. How H2O the water molecule can be liquid, gas or solid / ice and nevertheless it is always H2O. How a person is but has body, mind and soul. I think we can observe the Trinity in the Bible but also in creation over and over again. Humanity descends from 3 sons of Noah, Japhet, Shem and Ham. The ancestors of Israel are Jacob, Israel and Isaac, because the God of Abraham became the God of Jacobs, Isaac and Israel. That's 3 again.

[Mortimer]

https://youtu.be/DhXbDwcGqKU

[Komintasavalta]

See above, already dealt with this. You don't need to expand further on Maimonides. I assure you I am more familiar with his work than you are and the fact he believed trinitarianism was idolatry is not in question. However, I've already explained why his opinions do not mean Judaism as a whole considers Christianity to be idolatrous, although, as stated before you entered the thread, some people do share that opinion, which is valid, but far from universal.

No need to worry goy, it's not all Christians we are going to decapitate, but just those who believe in the divinity of Jesus, and it's not all Jews, but it's just the most powerful Jews that run the game.

It's enough that Rambam is venerated by the real Jews, and no-one is worried that Karaites or Reform Jews start chopping their heads off.

The "Hasidic University" website was made by some single Jew who believes that the PLO did 9/11, and its interpretation of the Noahide laws is probably not very authoritative. But for example as examples of sublaw 185/436, "To destroy all idols, their temples, and other idolatrous items", it gives the following items (http://www.hasidicuniversity.org/index.php?page=hu_theocracy/mitzvah_profile.php?mitzvah=185):


- To destroy statues of Buddha or Jesus, as well as crosses, and to dispose of the dust or ashes.
- To demolish Buddhist temples, Christian churches, and Freemasonic temples.
- To burn Christmas trees and their ornaments.
- To demolish the Sphinx in Egypt and scatter the dust.

As an example of sublaw -6/28, "No idol-worship according to its established rituals", which is punishable by death, it gives "Not to be baptized in Christianity, nor to pray in the name of Jesus" (http://www.hasidicuniversity.org/index.php?page=hu_theocracy/mitzvah_profile.php?mitzvah=-6).

[Longbowman]

No need to worry goy, it's not all Christians we are going to decapitate, but just those who believe in the divinity of Jesus, and it's not all Jews, but it's just the most powerful Jews that run the game.

No, this is inaccurate, again. Try to read a little more carefully and accept that, perhaps, I know [a lot] more than you about this topic. I am not talking about Reform, Liberal, Karaites, etc. I am talking about Rambam not being accepted within Orthodox circles.

Rambam is not venerated by anybody. He was not a saint or a prophet, but a rationalist commentator. Although he is considered a great thinker by many people, he is simply not an infallible or universally accepted authority. In his lifetime he fled Spain for Egypt. The Jews of Egypt generally loved him (except the Karaites, who were at the time numerous) but the Jews of Spain - and Europe in general, particularly Ashkenazim - generally rejected him. Many of his rulings are contradicted by a great many other great rabbis, both historically and also, to a slightly lesser extent, today. Until very recently, Hassidim rejected him and even burnt his books. Even those who think he was generally on the ball don't follow all of his rulings. Other opinions of Rambam include 'women should not be allowed to go outside more than once or twice a month,' for example. In summary, he was just a man - a very great thinker, but not a prophet or an unassailable authority, and there are many competing Geonim with differing viewpoints on a great many issues.

Most Jews do not use the Mishneh Torah as their codex of choice, although it is respected. Some exceptions are Temanim (Yemenite Jews) of the Baladi tradition, who do tend to follow the Mishneh Torah, but Ashkenazim almost never do, although they do study it.

Obviously your 'Hasidic university' website is... bizarre. A great many Jews are Freemasons, for example. I have no idea why this individual would even want to destroy them unless he's a conspiritard - Freemasonry is not a religious movement, even though you have to be a monotheist to join. It fits in well with the Noahide laws, which, again, don't matter outside of a hypothetical Halakhic state. I also don't understand why Buddhist temples get the chop (but Hindu ones don't?) or why he's so against the Sphinx or Christmas trees or even crosses (but not crescents?). He sounds like a right nutter.

Jews do not have the death penalty for foreigners who do not adhere to Judaism, so 'chopping heads' is a very bizarre thing to bring up. Indeed, the only religions to execute heretics and nonbelievers in recent times are Christians (Inquisition, anyone?) and Muslims. In Judaism it is, again, irrelevant what foreigners believe in their own countries. There is no punishment for 'not being a Jew.'

[Östsvensk]

No need to worry goy, it's not all Christians we are going to decapitate, but just those who believe in the divinity of Jesus, and it's not all Jews, but it's just the most powerful Jews that run the game.

It's enough that Rambam is venerated by the real Jews, and no-one is worried that Karaites or Reform Jews start chopping their heads off.

The "Hasidic University" website was made by some single Jew who believes that the PLO did 9/11, and its interpretation of the Noahide laws is probably not very authoritative. But for example as examples of sublaw 185/436, "To destroy all idols, their temples, and other idolatrous items", it gives the following items (http://www.hasidicuniversity.org/index.php?page=hu_theocracy/mitzvah_profile.php?mitzvah=185):


- To destroy statues of Buddha or Jesus, as well as crosses, and to dispose of the dust or ashes.
- To demolish Buddhist temples, Christian churches, and Freemasonic temples.
- To burn Christmas trees and their ornaments.
- To demolish the Sphinx in Egypt and scatter the dust.

As an example of sublaw -6/28, "No idol-worship according to its established rituals", which is punishable by death, it gives "Not to be baptized in Christianity, nor to pray in the name of Jesus" (http://www.hasidicuniversity.org/index.php?page=hu_theocracy/mitzvah_profile.php?mitzvah=-6).

That is literally what ISIS did to Christians. Beheaded them for idolatry.

[Longbowman]

That is literally what ISIS did to Christians. Beheaded them for idolatry.

And what literally no Jew has ever done to Christians.

[Insuperable]

You would only need to adhere to them if you lived in a hypothetical country run in accordance with Halakha. We don't care what you do in your own country.

But you probably do them anyway, the laws are:

-Be a monotheist
-Do not blaspheme
-Do not commit murder
-Do not torture animals
-Do not steal
-Do not have sex outside of a heterosexual marriage/support the nuclear family
-Establish and adhere to courts of law

So as you can see any good Christian and Muslim is in fact following the Noahide laws at all times, unless you think the Trinity contravenes rule 1.

He obviously doesn't think that. Nor proponent of unitarianism nor trinitarianism would think it contradicts with rule one.

[Insuperable]

You would only need to adhere to them if you lived in a hypothetical country run in accordance with Halakha. We don't care what you do in your own country.

But you probably do them anyway, the laws are:

-Be a monotheist
-Do not blaspheme
-Do not commit murder
-Do not torture animals
-Do not steal
-Do not have sex outside of a heterosexual marriage/support the nuclear family
-Establish and adhere to courts of law

So as you can see any good Christian and Muslim is in fact following the Noahide laws at all times, unless you think the Trinity contravenes rule 1.


No, this is inaccurate, again. Try to read a little more carefully and accept that, perhaps, I know [a lot] more than you about this topic. I am not talking about Reform, Liberal, Karaites, etc. I am talking about Rambam not being accepted within Orthodox circles.

Rambam is not venerated by anybody. He was not a saint or a prophet, but a rationalist commentator. Although he is considered a great thinker by many people, he is simply not an infallible or universally accepted authority. In his lifetime he fled Spain for Egypt. The Jews of Egypt generally loved him (except the Karaites, who were at the time numerous) but the Jews of Spain - and Europe in general, particularly Ashkenazim - generally rejected him. Many of his rulings are contradicted by a great many other great rabbis, both historically and also, to a slightly lesser extent, today. Until very recently, Hassidim rejected him and even burnt his books. Even those who think he was generally on the ball don't follow all of his rulings. Other opinions of Rambam include 'women should not be allowed to go outside more than once or twice a month,' for example. In summary, he was just a man - a very great thinker, but not a prophet or an unassailable authority, and there are many competing Geonim with differing viewpoints on a great many issues.

Most Jews do not use the Mishneh Torah as their codex of choice, although it is respected. Some exceptions are Temanim (Yemenite Jews) of the Baladi tradition, who do tend to follow the Mishneh Torah, but Ashkenazim almost never do, although they do study it.

Obviously your 'Hasidic university' website is... bizarre. A great many Jews are Freemasons, for example. I have no idea why this individual would even want to destroy them unless he's a conspiritard - Freemasonry is not a religious movement, even though you have to be a monotheist to join. It fits in well with the Noahide laws, which, again, don't matter outside of a hypothetical Halakhic state. I also don't understand why Buddhist temples get the chop (but Hindu ones don't?) or why he's so against the Sphinx or Christmas trees or even crosses (but not crescents?). He sounds like a right nutter.

Jews do not have the death penalty for foreigners who do not adhere to Judaism, so 'chopping heads' is a very bizarre thing to bring up. Indeed, the only religions to execute heretics and nonbelievers in recent times are Christians (Inquisition, anyone?) and Muslims. In Judaism it is, again, irrelevant what foreigners believe in their own countries. There is no punishment for 'not being a Jew.'

I don't think that Jews had that much of a chance of doing that in the last 2000 years unlike others. Ironically, the Church most of the time throughout history acted in accordance to the Old Testament.

[Mixdguy17]

Trinity is monotheistic even if Jews and Muslims reject it as idolatry. Christians consider themselves monotheistic and believe that there is only one God, but that he has 3 persons. How H2O the water molecule can be liquid, gas or solid / ice and nevertheless it is always H2O. How a person is but has body, mind and soul. I think we can observe the Trinity in the Bible but also in creation over and over again. Humanity descends from 3 sons of Noah, Japhet, Shem and Ham. The ancestors of Israel are Jacob, Israel and Isaac, because the God of Abraham became the God of Jacobs, Isaac and Israel. That's 3 again.

The number 3 is also very present in the Bible, like the fact that Jesus died at the age of 33, at 3 P.M, crucified along with 2 people making it 3 crosses, resuscitated at the 3rd day, ect etc ect.

[Flub]

You would only need to adhere to them if you lived in a hypothetical country run in accordance with Halakha. We don't care what you do in your own country.

But you probably do them anyway, the laws are:

-Be a monotheist
-Do not blaspheme
-Do not commit murder
-Do not torture animals
-Do not steal
-Do not have sex outside of a heterosexual marriage/support the nuclear family
-Establish and adhere to courts of law

So as you can see any good Christian and Muslim is in fact following the Noahide laws at all times, unless you think the Trinity contravenes rule 1.

Jews believe that Muslims and Christians are wrong anyway so how do you worship a monotheistic god without just converting to Judaism (As Jews or Rabbis say that you don’t need to convert to be “saved”)? What religion should you be practicing?

[Longbowman]

Jews believe that Muslims and Christians are wrong anyway so how do you worship a monotheistic god without just converting to Judaism (As Jews or Rabbis say that you don’t need to convert to be “saved”)? What religion should you be practicing?

There are plenty of religions that are different (and therefore, all but 1 must be wrong), but still monotheistic. I do not understand this element of the question.

Judaism is not like Christianity or Islam, you do not need to be a Jew to be 'saved.' There is no punishment for not following Judaism, this is a [very bizarre] Islamo-Christian idea. Most other religions do not have it.

Practise whatever religion brings you peace.

[Flub]

There are plenty of religions that are different (and therefore, all but 1 must be wrong), but still monotheistic. I do not understand this element of the question.

Judaism is not like Christianity or Islam, you do not need to be a Jew to be 'saved.' There is no punishment for not following Judaism, this is a [very bizarre] Islamo-Christian idea. Most other religions do not have it.

Practise whatever religion brings you peace.

The charge is that virtually there are no monotheistic religions (if you could name any) that don’t go against Judaism, like Christianity goes against it for worshipping Jesus, and Islam goes against it for following some madman who believed he was a prophet from god.

[Flub]

The charge is that virtually there are no monotheistic religions (if you could name any) that don’t go against Judaism, like Christianity goes against it for worshipping Jesus, and Islam goes against it for following some madman who believed he was a prophet from god.

I see my error, it’s noahide laws not about judaism’ laws...

[Longbowman]

The charge is that virtually there are no monotheistic religions (if you could name any) that don’t go against Judaism, like Christianity goes against it for worshipping Jesus, and Islam goes against it for following some madman who believed he was a prophet from god.

Yes but we don't care if your religions go against Judaism, so what's the point? What's the question?

The Noahide laws do not compel you to follow Judaism, just adhere to monotheism. Many religions do so - Sikhs, Muslims, Druze, etc. They have their [false] prophets, but this is accepted under the Noahide laws.

[Flub]

Yes but we don't care if your religions go against Judaism, so what's the point? What's the question?

The Noahide laws do not compel you to follow Judaism, just adhere to monotheism. Many religions do so - Sikhs, Muslims, Druze, etc. They have their [false] prophets, but this is accepted under the Noahide laws.

I just thought judaism laws = noahide laws. So I applied it to Judaism.

[Longbowman]

I just thought judaism laws = noahide laws. So I applied it to Judaism.

No, the Noahide laws are a series of laws that non-Jews have to follow if they reside in Jewish lands.

In their own countries they can do whatever they like, we're very Westphalian in that regard.

[Flub]

No, the Noahide laws are a series of laws that non-Jews have to follow if they reside in Jewish lands.

In their own countries they can do whatever they like, we're very Westphalian in that regard.

Then, I guess no one is gonna practice these laws anytime soon:thumb001:

[Longbowman]

Then, I guess no one is gonna practice these laws anytime soon:thumb001:

There are some internet crazies who call themselves Noahides but apart from that, correct!

[Flub]

There are some internet crazies who call themselves Noahides but apart from that, correct!

If you don't mind me asking, what's your faith?

[Longbowman]

If you don't mind me asking, what's your faith?

I was raised in a traditional Jewish home but my actual religious beliefs are much less organised nowadays.

[Komintasavalta]

Jews do not have the death penalty for foreigners who do not adhere to Judaism, so 'chopping heads' is a very bizarre thing to bring up. Indeed, the only religions to execute heretics and nonbelievers in recent times are Christians (Inquisition, anyone?) and Muslims. In Judaism it is, again, irrelevant what foreigners believe in their own countries. There is no punishment for 'not being a Jew.'

The Age of Gentiles is coming to a close, and the World to Come will have different rules. The PDF below now been removed from archive.org, but the text of the screenshot is also included here: https://www.encyclopedia.com/religion/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/noachide-laws.

https://i.ibb.co/JtGgsdR/EFrta-ZVUc-AAFf0-T-format-jpg-name-large.jpg



That is literally what ISIS did to Christians. Beheaded them for idolatry.

Yeah I wonder who created Islam (https://stopnoahidelaw.blogspot.com/2020/10/a-growing-alliance-between-noahide-law.html):


> Allah is instructing that there is no contention or dispute “between us Muslims and you Jews” because all revelations come from the same source—Allah. Some might say, but the Qur’an says that the Prophet Muhammad was sent to all mankind, to Arabs and non-Arabs, Jews and Christians, and all must follow him.[10] To that the Qur’an tells us that every prophet came with a general message and a specific message. The general message is meant for all mankind, this is the Deen (universal law) of Islam. Deen is comparable to the universal Noahide laws. In this regard there is no distinction between the prophets.

SOURCE: Dr. Omer Salem. "Real Islam calls for peace with the Jewish people". Arutz Sheva. Retrieved 10/08/2020 from: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/18295

...

> I told him that the Torah starts with our common humanity in the story of Adam, where we are told that all of humanity is created in the image of God. Judaism sees itself as having a role to play in the story of humanity, but not that everyone should be Jewish. Our role is to awaken certain values and a connection from God to humanity, which we see for example in the seven Noahide laws. We see in Islam a fulfillment of that vision.

SOURCE: DOV LIEBER (2016). "For West Bank rabbi, a rare and risky trip to Cairo’s ivory tower of Islam". The Time of Israel. 15 April 2016. Retrieved 10/08/2020 from: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-west-bank-rabbi-a-rare-and-risky-trip-to-cairos-ivory-tower-of-islam/

...

> Determined to pursue peace with the Jewish people, Egyptian Muslim sheikh, Dr. Omer Salem, just completed a whirlwind tour of Israel.
> ...
> At his speech at the Jewish Agency, Salem stated that Islam has no theological conflict with Judaism. He notes that Islam does have a long standing dispute with Christianity over two topics. One – the trinity is viewed by believing Muslims as idolatrous. Two - Christians wish to proselytize to Muslims. Judaism is considered strictly monotheistic, and does not call for proselytizing any more than spreading the Seven Noahide Laws, which Muslims already keep.

SOURCE: Rebecca Abrahamson. "Dr. Omer Salem, A Bridge for Peace?". Arutz Sheva. Retrieved 10/08/2020 from: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/18199

[Longbowman]

The Age of Gentiles is coming to a close

ok, so we've moved on from losing the argument to just outright conspiritardism as always. Thank you, Finn.

[Komintasavalta]

Even the United Goyim is pushing the Seven Noahide Laws (https://www.un.org/ecosoc/sites/www.un.org.ecosoc/files/files/en/2016doc/list-oral-statment-institute-of-noahide-code.pdf):


Uniting the United Nations with Seven Noahide Laws
Diplomats, Delegates, and Emissaries Gather at UN Headquarters for "One People, One World" Conference

UNITED NATIONS, New York (June 10, 2013) - On the heels of the Lubavitcher Rebbe's 19th Yahrtzeit, members of the UN Diplomatic corps, UN Press Officers, and and other officials gathered at the UN headquarters in New York to learn how the Seven Noahide Laws must play a key role in international efforts for world peace.

"On this day, people from all over the world gathered on behalf of the Laws of Noah," said Rabbi Yakov D. Cohen, head of the Institute of Noahide Code, which sponsored the conference. "Their observance is required, so that the vision of the United Nations - to have a settled and civilized world, filled with economic justice and righteousness - will prevail."

Titled "One People, One World," the conference brought together journalists, diplomats, and delegates from countries across the globe - including Egypt and Israel. Guests of honor from the UN Diplomatic Corps also signed a "Declaration of the Seven Laws of Noah," which emphasized the importance of the Seven Noahide Laws in maintaining peace, justice, and harmony among peoples and nations.

In his remarks at the event, Rabbi Cohen discussed how monotheism - uniting the world under the one true G-d - is essential for breaking down barriers between cultures. Looking around the room - filled with faces reflecting the diversity of the United Nations itself - Rabbi Cohen insisted that we must work together in bringing the international community to a higher level of spiritual understanding of man's place in the universe.

Other speakers at the event included Cartell Gore, President of the Booker T. Washington Business League, and Richard Dawson, Director of Dawson Associates International, who insisted that all Jews are obligated to teach the Seven Noahide Laws.

In addition to prohibiting idolatry, the Noahide code also forbids blasphemy, forbidden sexual relationships, murder, theft, and cruelty to animals. It also commands its followers to implement orderly processes of justice.

The Institute of Noahide Code is a UN-accredited NGO dedicated to spreading awareness of the Seven Noahide Laws, which all peoples of the world are obligated to follow. It takes its guidance from the inspiring vision of the Lubavitcher Rebbe, who understood the inherent power of these laws to unite the nations of the world.

Note how the article above says that "all peoples of the world are obligated to follow" the Noahide Laws, even though Longbowjew said that "Noahide laws are a series of laws that non-Jews have to follow if they reside in Jewish lands."

In 1991, the U.S. congress passed Public Law 102-14 which includes the following statement (https://www.congress.gov/bill/102nd-congress/house-joint-resolution/104/text): "Whereas in tribute to this great spiritual leader, 'the rebbe', this, his ninetieth year will be seen as one of 'education and giving', the year in which we turn to education and charity to return the world to the moral and ethical values contained in the Seven Noahide Laws."

The proclamation of the Education Day on Schneerson's birthday has since been renewed each year, but when I googled about half of the subsequent proclamations, I didn't find reference to the Noahide Laws in any of them.

Lorraine Day's husband Bill Dannemeyer was a congressman in 1991 when Public Law 102-14 was passed. He wrote the following (https://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/dr_day/Communist%20Takeover%20of%20US%20and%20World.pdf):


The Resolution, first introduced by Minority Leader, Rep. Robert H. Michel of Illinois, was then referred to the House Post Office and Civil Service Committee. Early in March 1991, 225 members of the House had signed on as co-sponsors of this Resolution, but it is highly doubtful they were given the full text of the document. They were probably told only that it was a Resolution in honor of Rabbi Schneerson's birthday. Most likely they had no knowledge that the treacherous Noahide Laws were a silent attachment. I was not one of the co-sponsors. The committee referred this Resolution to the House for a vote on March 5, 1991. But here is where the real treachery begins! The record states that the House of Representatives passed this Resolution by "Unanimous Consent." But what the average American does not know is that "Unanimous Consent" is a euphemism for getting a bill passed "under the radar" with almost NO ONE present to vote AND with NO RECORD of who voted or HOW they voted.

A Congressman's ears prick up when he hears the words "Unanimous Consent" because he is aware that this may be a signal for skullduggery. And in this case, it most certainly was! On the day this Resolution was "passed," the entire membership of the House of Representatives had already been dismissed after having been told that the day's work, including all the voting, was over. We could all go home. It was THEN, after virtually ALL members had left, that the traitorous authors of this Resolution brought it up for a vote on the House floor - with only four hand-picked members present. It was then deceitfully "passed" by "Unanimous Consent" on March 5, 1991, by voice vote with almost NO ONE there and NO RECORD made of their names or how they voted. Two days later, on March 7 1991, the U.S. Senate passed the Resolution by voice vote, also with no recorded vote. On March 20, 1991, it was signed by President George H. W. Bush and became Public Law 102-14.

[Loki]

There is an argument, as I said, that Trinitarianism (but not Unitarianism) is idolatrous - however, as I say, the Noahide laws only apply to foreigners residing in Israelite lands, so you don't need to follow them anyway.

Some Christians reject the idea of Jesus as God though.

So you admit that foreigners residing in "Israelite lands" (the state of Israel I suppose?) would be liable for this rule? That in itself is a frightening affront to human rights/free choice of personal religion, regardless of where one lives. A government shouldn't tell anyone what they may or may not believe in.

"Some Christians reject the idea of Jesus as God though" -- no they don't! All Christians worthy of that identification believe that Jesus is God. There are a few fringe sects who don't, but 99% of Christians don't regard them as true Christians. Even if they were more numerous, they still wouldn't be Christians. The deity of Jesus Christ is the most fundamental Christian belief, and the belief that ties together all Christian groupings, whether Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Non-Denominational, etc etc.

[Longbowman]

So you admit that foreigners residing in "Israelite lands" (the state of Israel I suppose?) would be liable for this rule? That in itself is a frightening affront to human rights/free choice of personal religion, regardless of where one lives. A government shouldn't tell anyone what they may or may not believe in.

I agree! Does this mean Christians will apologise for the Inquisition?


"Some Christians reject the idea of Jesus as God though" -- no they don't! All Christians worthy of that identification believe that Jesus is God. There are a few fringe sects who don't, but 99% of Christians don't regard them as true Christians. Even if they were more numerous, they still wouldn't be Christians. The deity of Jesus Christ is the most fundamental Christian belief, and the belief that ties together all Christian groupings, whether Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox, Non-Denominational, etc etc.

Unitarians are usually viewed as Christians, though.

[Loki]

Thank you for expanding on what I literally just said in the comment you were replying to.

Maimonides was very firm about Trinitarianism being idolatry but his work is not canonical and until very recently rationalist Judaism was explicitly rejected by a majority of the Jewish world. Maimonides had fled Catholic Spain for the Muslim world, so you can see where he was coming from. He has recently gotten broader acceptance but his opinions, whilst influential, are simply not the law.

Some Christians are not Trinitarians anyway - Trinitarianism is dominant today but this was not always so. So, no, it is not correct to say that Christianity is considered idolatrous, but more that many authors would consider Trinitarianism idolatrous.

Either way you can follow whatever laws you like in your own countries, we don't convert by the sword unlike certain religions.

Even most non-Trinitarians (as few as they are) believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and hence would not be compliant to your Noachide laws. There is only one non-Trinitarian Christian group that I know of that has more than a handful of members, and that is the Oneness Pentecostal church, which also believes that Jesus is God. In fact they believe Jesus and God the Father is one and the same person.

[Loki]

I agree! Does this mean Christians will apologise for the Inquisition?


Unitarians are usually viewed as Christians, though.

Unitarians are not Christians.

The Inquisition wasn't really Christian, it was an act of power hungry popes. More political than religious.

[Longbowman]

Even most non-Trinitarians (as few as they are) believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, and hence would not be compliant to your Noachide laws. There is only one non-Trinitarian Christian group that I know of that has more than a handful of members, and that is the Oneness Pentecostal church, which also believes that Jesus is God. In fact they believe Jesus and God the Father is one and the same person.

There are a few, the biggest one is actually the LDS which is controversial for other reasons. They don't believe Jesus was the son of God, though, which is good enough for our purposes. There are quite a few Unitarian Churches, for example the Unitarian Church of Transylvania, which is 421 years old.

[Loki]

There are a few, the biggest one is actually the LDS which is controversial for other reasons. They don't believe Jesus was the son of God, though, which is good enough for our purposes. There are quite a few Unitarian Churches, for example the Unitarian Church of Transylvania, which is 421 years old.

The Mormons are also not real Christians, they believe in 3 gods. They believe Jesus is a god, and God the Father was once a man who became a god, and that we all can become gods. If you think that is Christianity, then I don't know.... then Christianity could be just another version of Judaism, and Baha'i could be Muslims or whatever. Mormons are not Christians. Just because they also use the Bible doesn't make them Christians.

Unitarians call their organisation a "church", but that doesn't mean they are Christians. The Church of Satan also use the term "church". But that doesn't make them Christians.

So to recap, in short, if an organisation is compliant with your Noahide laws, accepted by your rabbis in your interpretation thereof, then by definition they cannot be Christians.

[Komintasavalta]

Jews openly say that gentiles who follow the Seven Noahide Laws will have a place in the World to Come, but they are cunningly leaving out the word "only" (https://www.newspapers.com/image/49937739):

https://i.ibb.co/QP4Ntp4/20211217095404.jpg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_to_come:


According to the Talmud, any non-Jew who lives according to the Seven Laws of Noah is regarded as a Ger toshav (righteous gentile), and is assured of a place in the world to come, the final reward of the righteous.[5][6]

Reference 5 (https://www.sefaria.org/Mishneh_Torah%2C_Kings_and_Wars.8.11):


Anyone who accepts upon himself and carefully observes the Seven Commandments is of the Righteous of the Nations of the World and has a portion in the World to Come. This is as long as he accepts and performs them because (he truly believes that) it was the Holy One, Blessed Be He, Who commanded them in the Torah, and that is was through Moses our Teacher we were informed that the Sons of Noah had already been commanded to observe them. But if he observes them because he convinced himself logically[81], then he is not considered a Resident Convert and is not of the Righteous of the Nations of the World, but merely one of their wise.

The World to Come refers to the Jewish paradise on earth, and therefore unrighteous gentiles will have no place on the earth. From the book "The Jewish Utopia" by Michael Higger (1932) (http://libgen.lc/index.php?req=jewish+utopia+higger):


That the righteous should be the only ones entitled to all the bliss and happiness in the ideal world, one can easily infer from the glorious future which the rabbis picture for the just and upright in the world to come.
...
The wicked, on the other hand, like tall towers, are obstructing the light from coming into the world. The unrighteous are the real enemies of God, and they will disappear before the appearance of the real light, the emblem of the ideal life on earth.[80] In the present era, the upright are humiliated. But in the millennium, the unrighteous will disappear as the grass that withers; while the righteous will walk with strength and pride.[81]
This conception concerning the disappearance of the wicked in the ideal era may be traced likewise in the Apocryphal literature. One passage in the Book of Enoch reads thus: "In these days downcast in countenance shall the kings of the earth have become; and the strong who possess the land because of the works of their hands... . As lead in the water shall they sink before the face of the righteous, and no trace of them shall anymore be found." [82]
...
There will be no room for the unrighteous, whether Jewish or non-Jewish, in the Kingdom of God. All of them will have disappeared before the advent of the ideal era on this earth.[84]
...
In the words of Isaiah, "new heavens and a new earth would be created"[111]; while the earth will be emptied of the unrighteous, and the righteous will cleave unto God.[112]

[Longbowman]

Jews openly say that gentiles who follow the Seven Noahide Laws will have a place in the World to Come, but they are cunningly leaving out the word "only"

1) 'Jews openly say what I say they say, except they leave out words.' Aren't you embarrassed by your sheer, overt dishonest here? Just stop lying.
2) Even if the author had put in the word 'only' it would just be their opinion, their reading.
3) Even if your approach had logical consistency, quoting three (or realistically, more) different people to try to create a consistent narrative is dishonest at best. Those are three different opinions. You can't slice and dice and create a Frankenstein's Opinion of different parts of different opinions. And, even if you could, it would still be just one opinion amongst thousands.
4) The irony, though, is that this is what Christians and Muslims actually believe. Non-believers burn forever. Jews do not believe that, at all but you do. Why are Christians so cut up about the idea that someone else thinks they will be punished (even though they won't be)? Their entire religion is based off this premise.

[Flub]

Let's say Islam or Christianity haven't been founded yet, what would the "noahides" do then?

@Longbowman I think it would be interesting if you answered this.

[Longbowman]

Let's say Islam and Christianity haven't been founded yet, what would people do then?

@Longbowman I think it would be interesting if you answered this.

Probably practise their own ancestral religions, or maybe one of the now-extinct or moribund monotheistic religions, like Manichaeism, Mandaenism, Samaritanism or Zoroastrianism, not that the ones of these that are still around readily accept converts.

[Flub]

Probably practise their own ancestral religions, or maybe one of the now-extinct or moribund monotheistic religions, like Manichaeism, Mandaenism, Samaritanism or Zoroastrianism, not that the ones of these that are still around readily accept converts.

Are they proselytizing religions? What if you don't have a religion or you were pagan?

[Longbowman]

Are they proselytizing religions? What if you don't have a religion or you were pagan?

Manichaeism was.

Most people would just be pagan still.

[Donhueas]

Manichaeism was.

Most people would just be pagan still.

Yies, Manichaeist and Mithraist proselytism are largely responsible for the great spread of Christianity.

[Loki]

Yies, Manichaeist and Mithraist proselytism are largely responsible for the great spread of Christianity.

No, the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is, through the work of the Holy Spirit.

[Donhueas]

No, the power of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is, through the work of the Holy Spirit.

That's right. Long live Christ the King

[RogueState]

WTF I just learnt today that the US has officialy recognized the 7 Noahide Laws as part of their laws :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ys3v_f1b7k

It's even the official US government website :
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-105/pdf/STATUTE-105-Pg44.pdf

The US is completely owned by Zionist Jews and Freemasons

[Loki]

WTF I just learnt today that the US has officialy recognized the 7 Noahide Laws as part of their laws :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ys3v_f1b7k

It's even the official US government website :
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/STATUTE-105/pdf/STATUTE-105-Pg44.pdf

The US is completely owned by Zionist Jews and Freemasons

Shocking, I doubt many people are aware of this, and many would be outraged to learn about this.