Finnish-like drift in Polish Kashubians [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

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Peterski

10-12-2021, 07:31 PM

I removed Lithuanians & Latvians and ran Kashubians against the rest of Modern Averages spreadsheet using Vahaduo. I got:

https://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled-averages.htm

Polish_Kashubian,0.133173,0.12491,0.07995,0.067184 ,0.045547,0.023148,0.00282,0.014076,0.000205,-0.024966,0.000487,-0.005845,0.016353,0.018441,0.00095,-0.009944,-0.017602,-0.002914,0.003771,0.004252,0.001248,-0.008285,0.008627,-0.000723,-0.002155

Target: Polish_Kashubian
Distance: 2.2709% / 0.02270867
54.0 Belarusian
15.2 Estonian
13.4 Icelandic
9.6 Finnish
4.6 Spanish_Asturias
3.2 Russian_Smolensk

After removing also Belarusians:

Target: Polish_Kashubian
Distance: 2.2982% / 0.02298152
47.6 Russian_Smolensk
28.0 Estonian
12.4 Icelandic
7.2 Finnish
4.8 Spanish_Asturias

After removing Russian_Smolensk (now over 50% Estonian!):

Target: Polish_Kashubian
Distance: 2.3891% / 0.02389100
56.8 Estonian
19.0 Russian_Orel
13.2 German_East
7.6 Spanish_Asturias
3.4 Icelandic

After removing Estonian:

Target: Polish_Kashubian
Distance: 2.5595% / 0.02559482
31.0 Russian_Kaluga
18.8 Russian_Pskov
15.2 Finnish
12.2 German_East
11.2 Icelandic
7.2 Sorb_Niederlausitz
4.4 Russian_Orel

These Finnic signals stay every time. Why do you think do Kashubians have this Finnish-like drift?

=====

Map showing the Kashubian homeland (and Kociewie is a neighbouring ethnographic region):

https://i.imgur.com/wuJZlME.png

XenophobicPrussian

10-12-2021, 07:38 PM

Those models aren't saying what you think they are at all(especially if you removed Balts? why? Poles are Balts+Slavs with minor Germanic and Celtic, obviously G25 will use Baltic_BA heavy populations like Finns or Estonians to replace that ancestry..), but any population with amounts of N1c will likely have atleast some minor, low single digit Finnic or Ural-esque admixture.

Peterski

10-12-2021, 07:45 PM

(especially if you removed Balts? why? Poles are Balts+Slavs

I removed Balts because the assumption is, that the influence of Balts in Poland is minuscule, except for the Suwalki Region:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suwa%C5%82ki

Poles are Balts+Slavs ??? According to which theory? Poles are likely overwhelmingly Slavic with minimal Baltic influence.

G25 will use Baltic_BA heavy populations like Finns or Estonians to replace that ancestry

Not in my case or in cases of other non-Kashubian Poles. After remove Balts, they do not get replaced by Estonians or Finns:

TomenableLD,0.135449,0.142174,0.065619,0.056848,0. 036007,0.021475,0.004935,0.006,0.005522,-0.01877,-0.004709,-0.005245,0.011744,0.011698,-0.005157,0.00053,0.002868,0.000887,-0.003897,-0.003252,-0.009358,-0.001978,0.007025,0.015785,-0.002634

Try such models with Polish average or individual Polish samples and you will not see Estonia or Finns showing up in the results.

Peterski

10-12-2021, 07:56 PM

Those models aren't saying what you think they are

Have you checked the G25 North Europe PCA, and where does the Kashub plot there?:

https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#NorthEurope

https://i.imgur.com/9tfM94f.png

https://i.imgur.com/7EViflZ.png

Compared to Non-Kashubian Poles, he is not shifted in the direction of Balts, but Finns.

Or maybe both Finns and Balts, but especially Finns.

Peterski

10-12-2021, 08:26 PM

but any population with amounts of N1c will likely have atleast some minor, low single digit Finnic or Ural-esque admixture.

But they don't really have more of N1c than the general Polish population:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashubians#Genetics

Maybe Kashubians have Old Prussian admixture but mostly female-mediated?

And maybe the Old Prussians were Finnic-shifted compared to East Balts?

Lemminkäinen

10-12-2021, 09:59 PM

Komintasavalta

10-13-2021, 04:15 AM

https://i.imgur.com/7EViflZ.png

Compared to Non-Kashubian Poles, he is not shifted in the direction of Balts, but Finns.

If you do the same distance ratio calculation with all ancient and modern individuals in the stock G25 datasheets, then the Kashubian sample is the closest to VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK51, but it's the fourth closest to a Viking-age Polish sample (from @52.7,18.9; a bit south of Kashubia):

$ printf %s\\n ais\ 1UrhcfNMLW0oMXIbHGUE60v2taCM7PFw1 aas\ 1F2rKEVtu8nWSm7qFhxPU6UESQNsmA-sl mis\ 1HYrDwxEXv82DvDLoq736pS5ZTGJA4dn5 mas\ 1wZr-UOve0KUKo_Qbgeo27m-CQncZWb8y aiu\ 1YKkEOtyV5SISvmY_FyS4YSLXCxxYt5_W aau\ 1f0imQyVNZ9RPESNAYIeIkA8fx4wAVNYo miu\ 18GcEVEl3GI-ByviD-TgQQjvEaaTbNTr2 mau\ 1y49hyvviJpHj9esVqyeiFm32DhnPlfRQ|while read l m;do curl "https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=$m" -Lso $l;done
$ dist0()(awk -F, 'NR==FNR{for(i=2;i<=NF;i++)a[i]=$i;next}$1{s=0;for(i=2;i<=NF;i++)s+=($i-a[i])^2;printf"%.8f %s\n",s^.5,$1}' "$2" "$1")
$ dira()(x=`<"$1"`;paste -d' ' <(printf %s\\n "$x"|dist0 - "$2") <(printf %s\\n "$x"|dist0 - "$3")|awk '$3{print$1/$3,$2}'|sort -n)
$ dira <(awk FNR\>1 [am]is) <(grep Kashu mis) <(grep Polish, mas)|head -n32
0 Polish_Kashubian:Kashubian1
0.685154 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK51
0.700882 Finnish:HG00277
0.739741 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84005
0.746143 VK2020_POL_Bodzia_VA:VK157
0.751127 VK2020_UKR_Shestovitsa_VA:VK539
0.751208 Lithuanian_PZ:LTG-759
0.753072 Lithuanian_PZ:LTG-748
0.776546 Russian_Kaluga:Rkbo-58
0.780898 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK461
0.784266 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK464
0.790478 Swedish:Sweden8
0.790906 Estonian:Est375
0.793153 RUS_Ingria_IA:VIII9_1
0.7937 Finnish:HG00337
0.79431 Karelian:karelia6
0.795286 Polish:Polish11
0.799717 Latvian:latvian54H7
0.800343 Finnish_East:HG00323
0.80528 Finnish:HG00311
0.809667 Finnish:HG00190
0.810226 Belarusian:Belarusian2
0.810776 Latvian:latvian22J5
0.811649 Vepsian:vepsa19
0.812228 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK462
0.815173 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK478
0.815754 Estonian:Est377
0.817833 Finnish_East:HG00285
0.818304 Karelian:karelia9
0.822737 Finnish:GS000018756
0.826229 Lithuanian_VZ:LTG-587
0.832926 VK2020_RUS_Gnezdovo_VA:VK224

vbnetkhio

10-13-2021, 05:39 AM

I removed Lithuanians & Latvians and ran Kashubians against the rest of Modern Averages spreadsheet using Vahaduo. I got:

https://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/G25modern-scaled-averages.htm

Polish_Kashubian,0.133173,0.12491,0.07995,0.067184 ,0.045547,0.023148,0.00282,0.014076,0.000205,-0.024966,0.000487,-0.005845,0.016353,0.018441,0.00095,-0.009944,-0.017602,-0.002914,0.003771,0.004252,0.001248,-0.008285,0.008627,-0.000723,-0.002155

Target: Polish_Kashubian
Distance: 2.2709% / 0.02270867
54.0 Belarusian
15.2 Estonian
13.4 Icelandic
9.6 Finnish
4.6 Spanish_Asturias
3.2 Russian_Smolensk

Estonians and Finnish have minor Uralic, in these models they could just be proxies for Baltic and Scandinavian influence.

However, after using Saami to isolate the real Finnish drift, this Kashubians still gets it, compare to Lithuanians:

_TargetDistanceBaltic_LTU_BAHUN_Avar_SzoladSaamiVK 2020_DNK_Sealand_IA
Polish_Kashubian0.02476964•35.737.12.424.8
Lithuanian_PA0.01815647•31.367.71.00.0
Lithuanian_PZ0.02046207•67.432.60.00.0
Lithuanian_RA0.02386076•43.256.40.40.0
Lithuanian_SZ0.02277893•60.939.10.00.0
Lithuanian_VA0.02049116•39.859.70.50.0
Lithuanian_VZ0.01983352•51.948.10.00.0
Average0.02147894•47.248.70.63.5

I think these are just the results of one person? It could be because of that. A real average will produce more realistic results.

Lemminkäinen

10-13-2021, 07:07 AM

If you do the same distance ratio calculation with all ancient and modern individuals in the stock G25 datasheets, then the Kashubian sample is the closest to VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK51, but it's the fourth closest to a Viking-age Polish sample (from @52.7,18.9; a bit south of Kashubia):

$ printf %s\\n ais\ 1UrhcfNMLW0oMXIbHGUE60v2taCM7PFw1 aas\ 1F2rKEVtu8nWSm7qFhxPU6UESQNsmA-sl mis\ 1HYrDwxEXv82DvDLoq736pS5ZTGJA4dn5 mas\ 1wZr-UOve0KUKo_Qbgeo27m-CQncZWb8y aiu\ 1YKkEOtyV5SISvmY_FyS4YSLXCxxYt5_W aau\ 1f0imQyVNZ9RPESNAYIeIkA8fx4wAVNYo miu\ 18GcEVEl3GI-ByviD-TgQQjvEaaTbNTr2 mau\ 1y49hyvviJpHj9esVqyeiFm32DhnPlfRQ|while read l m;do curl "https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=$m" -Lso $l;done
$ dist0()(awk -F, 'NR==FNR{for(i=2;i<=NF;i++)a[i]=$i;next}$1{s=0;for(i=2;i<=NF;i++)s+=($i-a[i])^2;printf"%.8f %s\n",s^.5,$1}' "$2" "$1")
$ dira()(x=`<"$1"`;paste -d' ' <(printf %s\\n "$x"|dist0 - "$2") <(printf %s\\n "$x"|dist0 - "$3")|awk '$3{print$1/$3,$2}'|sort -n)
$ dira <(awk FNR\>1 [am]is) <(grep Kashu mis) <(grep Polish, mas)|head -n32
0 Polish_Kashubian:Kashubian1
0.685154 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK51
0.700882 Finnish:HG00277
0.739741 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84005
0.746143 VK2020_POL_Bodzia_VA:VK157
0.751127 VK2020_UKR_Shestovitsa_VA:VK539
0.751208 Lithuanian_PZ:LTG-759
0.753072 Lithuanian_PZ:LTG-748
0.776546 Russian_Kaluga:Rkbo-58
0.780898 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK461
0.784266 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK464
0.790478 Swedish:Sweden8
0.790906 Estonian:Est375
0.793153 RUS_Ingria_IA:VIII9_1
0.7937 Finnish:HG00337
0.79431 Karelian:karelia6
0.795286 Polish:Polish11
0.799717 Latvian:latvian54H7
0.800343 Finnish_East:HG00323
0.80528 Finnish:HG00311
0.809667 Finnish:HG00190
0.810226 Belarusian:Belarusian2
0.810776 Latvian:latvian22J5
0.811649 Vepsian:vepsa19
0.812228 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK462
0.815173 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK478
0.815754 Estonian:Est377
0.817833 Finnish_East:HG00285
0.818304 Karelian:karelia9
0.822737 Finnish:GS000018756
0.826229 Lithuanian_VZ:LTG-587
0.832926 VK2020_RUS_Gnezdovo_VA:VK224

Ancient Gotlanders were not Swedish. They were "Balto-Slavic" and Finnic.
Reminds me of the interpretation of Southwest Finnish historians. They use to see Gotland in a Baltic and Finnic context. I wonder what you think about it.

Komintasavalta

10-13-2021, 07:40 AM

Ancient Gotlanders were not Swedish. They were "Balto-Slavic" and Finnic.
Reminds me of the interpretation of Southwest Finnish historians. They use to see Gotland in a Baltic and Finnic context. I wonder what you think about it.

Yeah, the Blatic sea is the sea of the Blyats after all.

I don't know about Finnish historians. It's hard for me to read anything in Finnish, because I can't stand the Standard Finnish dialect that is used to write Finnish. And I presume the Southwestern Finnish historians didn't write in the Turku dialect.

The sample from Gotland is actually the second closest to the Kashubian sample:

Distance to VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK51:
.028 Estonian:Est375
.031 Polish_Kashubian:Kashubian1
.032 Finnish:HG00277
.032 Vepsian:vepsa19
.033 Belarusian:Belarusian2
.034 Russian_Kursk:Rkuch-05
.035 Finnish:HG00337
.035 Russian_Orel:russianOrjol1

Here's a PCA of the 500 closest samples to VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK51 in G25:

https://i.imgur.com/YAdK9KA.png

Lucas

10-13-2021, 09:58 AM

I think these are just the results of one person? It could be because of that. A real average will produce more realistic results.

I think the same average, from at least three people would be more stable. Here we could encounter randomly some individual rare variation.
OK that's good that is at least one Kashubian in G25 but making a hypothesis based on his results is too early.

Peterski

10-13-2021, 11:36 AM

I think the same average, from at least three people would be more stable. Here we could encounter randomly some individual rare variation.
OK that's good that is at least one Kashubian in G25 but making a hypothesis based on his results is too early.

Yes it is one person, I sent it to Davidski for G25. I have this person's K36, K15, K47, etc. as well - and seems typical, not different than average Kashubs.

Check K36:

Sample Kashubian1.txt
Amerindian 0
Arabian 0
Armenian 0
Basque 1.57
Central African 0
Central Euro 12.69
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 4.81
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 20.92
East Med 0
Eastern Euro 15.18
Fennoscandian 16.3
French 4.75
Iberian 3.59
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 1.01
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 0
North African 0
North Atlantic 7.49
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 11.59
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0.1
West African 0
West Caucasian 0
West Med 0

With K36 he is closest to Kashubian average:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Europe_PL_Pomorskie-Kashubia
0.5723373
(...)

Imputed file for comparison:

Sample Kashubian1_imputed.txt
Amerindian 0
Arabian 0
Armenian 0
Basque 1.57
Central African 0
Central Euro 12.7
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 4.6
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 20.58
East Med 0
Eastern Euro 15.14
Fennoscandian 16.48
French 4.58
Iberian 3.9
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 1.71
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 0
North African 0
North Atlantic 7.29
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 10.93
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0.53
West African 0
West Caucasian 0
West Med 0

rothaer

10-13-2021, 12:53 PM

(...)

Btw. the Krakauer Berg sample KRA003 is also plotting Kashubian-like and Finnish shifted. Maybe that can be taken into account when considering an explanation.

https://i.imgur.com/cHKbrPj.jpg

Peterski

10-13-2021, 01:02 PM

Btw. the Krakauer Berg sample KRA003 is also plotting Kashubian-like and Finnish shifted. Maybe that can be taken into account when considering an explanation.

https://i.imgur.com/cHKbrPj.jpg

Maybe KRA003 was someone who migrated from [Slavic-inhabited] Pomerania to Krakauer Berg, and died there?

rothaer

10-13-2021, 01:51 PM

Maybe KRA003 was someone who migrated from [Slavic-inhabited] Pomerania to Krakauer Berg, and died there?

Hard to say what’s the simplest explanation in line with Occam’s razor.

Peterski

10-13-2021, 02:30 PM

Poles and Finns have Baltic and North Germanic admixtures in quite the same ratio. The Finns have additionally Siberian. The less they have Siberian the more they near northeast Poles. The Balts are archaic East European with negligible admixture.

There is a subgroup of Poles who are genetically almost identical as Balts, but these are Poles from the Suwalki Region, not Kashubians.

Arūnas

10-13-2021, 03:08 PM

yes, Donald (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Tusk) even phenotypically passes as Finn

coolfrenchguy

10-13-2021, 03:40 PM

does it related to the first nordic bronze age in Pomerania called also scandza

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age

the french wiki explain than Pomerania in the Nordic bronze age :
The Scandinavian influence in Pomerania and in northern Poland from -1300 even seems to have been so strong that these two regions are included in the Danish Bronze Age culture (Dabrowski 1989, p. 73).

or maybe i'am speculating a bit too much and it's related,or not, in a way later period with Wollin and the Jomsvikings(960-1043)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jomsborg

and the germano-polish Pomerania after all is just a bit western of your actual kashubia
and maybe related or not than the fact than all the baltic area were strongly influenced by the varangians
i support than the fact than a lot of people forget than all this area were conquered by the varangians,including the famous "slavs" or slavonic people from the word slave

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/East_Slavic_tribes_peoples_8th_9th_century.jpg
it's maybe could be a lead below

<header class="entry-header"> </header>
Vikings in Poland - an official view https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wsBOU9zf9rA/XXGAITx_osI/AAAAAAAAHgQ/c5To-hCcUrIIWGe_fy81In3zFV6CpxfAQCLcBGAs/s640/aleksander-karcz-viking-port-aleksander-karcz.jpg (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wsBOU9zf9rA/XXGAITx_osI/AAAAAAAAHgQ/c5To-hCcUrIIWGe_fy81In3zFV6CpxfAQCLcBGAs/s1600/aleksander-karcz-viking-port-aleksander-karcz.jpg)
While the lively festivals and performances reconstructing medieval and Viking times, like the one in the city of
Wolin (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Wolin) in Pomerania, draw nowadays more and more public interest, there has been a striking disinterest of the Polish scholars towards the never scientifically answered question of the Viking impact on Poland in the Early Middle Ages.

Those who dare to look closer today at the Poland’s history and its material heritage from the Viking Age will not accept anymore the official position of the Polish historians saying that there was no Viking Age in Poland.
Despite the significance of the archaeological material unearthed in Poland in the last decades, the historians relentlessly defend the theory of the purely autonomous Slavic foundation of the Polish state in the tenth century. In this way they keep trying to uphold the concept of Poland’s birth based on a legend and keep going against the archaeological evidence.
Thanks to the proliferation and democratization of knowledge that has been brought up by the Internet to everybody’s doorstep, presently any open-minded human being who is willing to explore the knowledge on his own, is no longer completely dependent on doubtful scientific probity and good will of certain professionals to gather and reveal the facts that may not necessarily be in line with the dominant narrative.
That is why, aside of my blog in Polish "
Manowce historyków (https://manowcehistorykow.blogspot.com/)" ("Biases of historians") I would like to propose a series of articles under the heading “Vikings in Poland” dealing with the subject that has always been ignored, evaded or simply rendered null and void by the mainstream of Polish historiography.

Here is a map of Europe in the Viking Age (9th-11th centuries) depicting the main directions of the Viking penetration and their principal settlement concentrations, with the Polish territories including Pomerania marked in a circle (credit:
Vikings (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Vikings), Wikipedia).

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-AJIC9ziufwE/Vb3onkZ3aeI/AAAAAAAADUo/K63ZNx99ktg/s320/Wikinger%2BKarte%2Bex%2BWiki%2Ben%2Bed1.jpg (https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-AJIC9ziufwE/Vb3onkZ3aeI/AAAAAAAADUo/K63ZNx99ktg/s1600/Wikinger%2BKarte%2Bex%2BWiki%2Ben%2Bed1.jpg)
One may understand the position of the Polish intellectuals of the 19th century who, in their effort to bring Poland back on the map of Europe, looked more for every bright aspect of the Polish statehood history rather than for a scientifically balanced view. One may also acknowledge scientific compromises of the Polish historians in their self-defense position against the Nazi prewar ideology aiming to annihilate the Slavic people.
One may not, however, understand and agree with some of the present-day historians in Poland who sacrifice scientific principles and professional integrity on the altar of Poland’s legendary birth. The “shrine” that once served for vital political purposes in times of Poland’s lost or threatened statehood, in today’s Poland enjoying democracy and peaceful growth, is nothing more than an assemblage of petrified theories with their roots reaching the 12th century tale of a plebeian origin of the Poland's founders, collected or fabricated by a certain
Gallus Anonymus (https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Gallus_Anonymus), otherwise, the most valued medieval chronicler of Poland.
By the way, the chronicler was aware of the controversy of at least some of his statements, as he said: "And since such advocates plead my case I will disdain any mutterings and murmurings of envious detractors" (Et cum tales premiserim causidicus defensores, flocipendam quidquid mussitando murmurarent invidiosi detractores). The "advocates" happened to be the nobles of the royal court and the religious authorities who ordered his panegyric work "Chronicles and deeds of the dukes or princes of the Poles" (Chronica et gesta ducum sive principum Polonorum).

Any effort of younger scholars to shed some new light on the ideologically sensitive early medieval period in Poland provokes a scathing reaction of the biggest history authorities, the custodians and guardians of the fossilized “shrine”. When a new, fresh idea, theory or view on the Viking subject appears in public, the guardians or their ardent assistants, being concerned about their academic careers, precipitously communicate: “the matter has already long been thoroughly examined and correctly interpreted by” … and here follows the list of publications admitted to the altar of the Polish official historiography.
Let us skip here the prejudices, pre-judgments and other unscientific considerations that remain behind the official narrative of the absence of an essential Norman component in the foundation of the Polish state. Let’s talk about a scientific approach to the historical facts and archaeological evidence available to the wide public.
Pursuing the spirit of enquiry and skepticism which is indispensable in the scientific method, we shall not accept “the truths established already long time ago” nor shall we be discouraged by the possible imputations of anti-Polish, anti-state or anti-Slavic motives. Quite to the contrary, we should seek the truth for the sake of our better self-understanding, better understanding of others and a better adaptation to the challenges of the contemporary world.

2 comments:

https://www.blogger.com/img/blogger_logo_round_35.png

<cite class="user">POLYMER REALITY (https://www.blogger.com/profile/12637763824878772088)</cite>21 May 2018 at 13:31 (https://pomeranianhistory.blogspot.com/2015/08/vikings-in-poland-official-view.html?showComment=1526934708170#c8748702460025 465565)

Ya. with my 17% Scandinavian blood line and 71 % Eastern European heritage,
(Polish Kascubian.) I believe that my blond hair and blue eye came from my Bohemian
for-fathers, who had dark hair and brown eyes. the Scandinavian influence in Poland
did not stop until after the Middle ages, did you ever hear of Livonia and Riga?

Reply

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tDn_8Ar6SWo/YNb6jbNyB-I/AAAAAAAALaM/Kz1tWeYe-DItkXhmK8rBUFufgCYgcBIhwCK4BGAYYCw/s35/Maszewo%25252BLeszek%25252BB%252525C4%25252585cals ki.JPG
<cite class="user">MASSOVIA (https://www.blogger.com/profile/15441358144728036333)</cite>24 May 2018 at 05:34 (https://pomeranianhistory.blogspot.com/2015/08/vikings-in-poland-official-view.html?showComment=1527165298480#c8860766330020 860989)

Yeah, according to the Icelandic sagas already towards the end of the 7th century the Curonians and Livonians paid tribute to Ivar Vidfamne, the king of Scania. From at least that period on there must have been between Livonians and Scandinavians not only a political and cultural exchange but also a human interbreeding. The same is valid for other Balt and Slavic tribes in their relationships with the Nordic people.

Peterski

10-13-2021, 03:43 PM

Comparisons of Kashub and Sorb are also interesting:

<tbody>
Distance ratio: ( AC / BC ) ↑
A: Polish_Kashubian
B: Sorb_Niederlausitz
C: ↴

0.69698704
Finnish

0.74722548
Estonian

0.75582027
Lithuanian_PZ

0.75925982
Finnish_East

0.76115021
Ingrian

0.78447135
Karelian

0.79250288
Lithuanian_VZ

0.80144035
Vepsian

0.80367497
Russian_Krasnoborsky

0.81120925
Russian_Kostroma

0.81745344
Russian_Pinega

0.84011198
Russian_Pinezhsky

0.85931917
Latvian

0.87079548
Russian_Leshukonsky

0.87101485
Russian_Kaluga

0.87856922
Russian_Yaroslavl

0.89034133
Udmurt_o2

0.89545500
Saami_Kola

0.89672953
Komi

0.89865532
Mordva_Erzya

0.90106853
Nordva_Moksha

0.90152275
Udmurt_o3

0.91726186
Lithuanian_SZ

0.91749867
Udmurt_o1

0.92074627
Saami

</tbody>

The other way around:

<tbody>
Distance ratio: ( AC / BC ) ↑
A: Sorb_Niederlausitz
B: Polish_Kashubian
C: ↴

0.50855442
Slovakian

0.65395180
Ukrainian

0.66897553
Moldovan_o

0.68872931
Croatian

0.69033373
Slovenian

0.71410187
Bosnian

0.71885740
Russian_Belgorod

0.72223792
Hungarian

0.73095592
Czech

0.74586696
Montenegrin

0.75639962
Serbian

0.75897374
Austrian

0.77145706
Moldovan

0.78908827
Romanian

0.80694120
Bulgarian

0.81211748
German_East

0.81738844
Macedonian

0.81954024
Italian_Northeast

0.83275725
German

0.83401824
Gagauz

0.83879025
Swiss_French

0.83940922
Rumelia_East

0.83973244
Greek_Central_Macedonia

0.84161746
Italian_Veneto

0.84322517
Italian_Aosta_Valley

</tbody>

Some more, using other modes:

https://i.imgur.com/1GnqRj6.png

rothaer

10-13-2021, 04:21 PM

Comparisons of Kashub and Sorb are also interesting: (...)

Distance ratio? Come on, who shall understand what real circumstance is reflected by that? I understand the formula, but what exactly is expressed, must be told. I now just comment the first one:

"Distance ratio: ( AC / BC ) ↑
A: Polish_Kashubian
B: Sorb_Niederlausitz
C: ↴"

It's about to what references Kashubs are relatively much closer than are Sorbs.

As for the last list with "Distance D3" I can not even meaningfully put into words what shall be displayed. But maybe you can help. :p

Peterski

10-13-2021, 05:32 PM

Here is another Kashub, who is closest to Estonians when using Eurogenes K15 on GEDmatch:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3351-Kashubian-Polish-results

Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 4-Ancestors Oracle:

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 28.84
2 North_Sea 27.76
3 Atlantic 16.45
4 Eastern_Euro 15.65
5 West_Med 5.43
6 West_Asian 3.28

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Estonian @ 7.451365
2 South_Polish @ 7.660712
3 Ukrainian @ 7.778255
4 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 7.800802
5 Polish @ 7.891741
6 Finnish @ 10.210291
7 Belorussian @ 11.107287
8 Southwest_Finnish @ 11.271881
9 Russian_Smolensk @ 11.397657
10 Estonian_Polish @ 12.159723
11 Southwest_Russian @ 12.228398
12 Lithuanian @ 12.567585
13 Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 12.739174
14 Hungarian @ 13.239334
15 East_German @ 13.714237
16 East_Finnish @ 13.776028
17 La_Brana-1 @ 14.066832
18 Croatian @ 14.178986
19 Kargopol_Russian @ 16.136461
20 Moldavian @ 16.433775

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Lithuanian +50% Swedish @ 4.986827

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Lithuanian +25% Ukrainian_Lviv +25% West_Norwegian @ 3.254365

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Ukrainian_Lviv + West_Norwegian @ 3.254365
2 Estonian + Lithuanian + Swedish + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.358232
3 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Ukrainian + West_Norwegian @ 3.533077
4 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Swedish + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.623232
5 Estonian + Lithuanian + Swedish + Ukrainian @ 3.628350
6 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.652711
7 Estonian + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.702654
8 Estonian + Lithuanian + Ukrainian_Lviv + West_Norwegian @ 3.726162
9 Lithuanian + Swedish + Ukrainian_Lviv + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.748364
10 Lithuanian + Swedish + Ukrainian + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.763085
11 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + South_Polish + West_Norwegian @ 3.794914
12 Estonian + Lithuanian + South_Polish + Swedish @ 3.819522
13 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Swedish + Ukrainian @ 3.846848
14 Lithuanian + Swedish + Ukrainian + Ukrainian @ 3.875186
15 Lithuanian + Polish + Swedish + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.879349
16 Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Ukrainian @ 3.900410
17 Lithuanian + South_Polish + Swedish + Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.915010
18 Hungarian + Lithuanian + Lithuanian + Swedish @ 3.966986
19 Belorussian + Lithuanian + Ukrainian_Lviv + West_Norwegian @ 3.968132
20 Estonian + Lithuanian + Norwegian + Ukrainian @ 3.976274

Lucas

10-15-2021, 12:17 PM

Yes it is one person, I sent it to Davidski for G25. I have this person's K36, K15, K47, etc. as well - and seems typical, not different than average Kashubs.

Check K36:

Sample Kashubian1.txt
Amerindian 0
Arabian 0
Armenian 0
Basque 1.57
Central African 0
Central Euro 12.69
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 4.81
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 20.92
East Med 0
Eastern Euro 15.18
Fennoscandian 16.3
French 4.75
Iberian 3.59
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 1.01
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 0
North African 0
North Atlantic 7.49
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 11.59
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0.1
West African 0
West Caucasian 0
West Med 0

With K36 he is closest to Kashubian average:

With my freshly created fst multiplied sheet (All refs used, no targeting). He is indeed deviating toward north-east here.

Target: Kashub_fst
Distance: 9.9468% / 0.09946787
51.0 PL_Kashubian
20.6 Lithuanian_Zematija
14.4 SV_Gotaland
8.8 Lithuanian_Eastern_Aukstota
4.6 Estonian_NW
0.6 Basques_FR_Basse_Navarre

Target: Kashub_fst
Distance: 10.3435% / 0.10343530 | ADC: 0.25x RC
77.4 PL_Kashubian
11.6 Lithuanian_western_Zematija
11.0 Estonian_NW

Target: Kashub_fst
Distance: 10.5822% / 0.10582245 | ADC: 0.25x
69.8 PL_Kashubian
14.6 PL_Masovia
10.8 Estonian_NW
4.8 Lithuanian_western_Zematija

Peterski

10-15-2021, 01:37 PM

With my freshly created fst multiplied sheet (All refs used, no targeting). He is indeed deviating toward north-east here.

Target: Kashub_fst
Distance: 9.9468% / 0.09946787
51.0 PL_Kashubian
20.6 Lithuanian_Zematija
14.4 SV_Gotaland
8.8 Lithuanian_Eastern_Aukstota
4.6 Estonian_NW
0.6 Basques_FR_Basse_Navarre

Target: Kashub_fst
Distance: 10.3435% / 0.10343530 | ADC: 0.25x RC
77.4 PL_Kashubian
11.6 Lithuanian_western_Zematija
11.0 Estonian_NW

Target: Kashub_fst
Distance: 10.5822% / 0.10582245 | ADC: 0.25x
69.8 PL_Kashubian
14.6 PL_Masovia
10.8 Estonian_NW
4.8 Lithuanian_western_Zematija

Can you show PCA with your Polish regions including Kashubian average and this Kashub? To show in which direction and how much he deviates from the Kashub average and Poles in PCA.

BTW check my other interesting (or boring?) thread:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?353440-Is-North-Slavic-genetics-considered-boring-compared-to-South-Slavic

Roy

10-15-2021, 05:39 PM

It's an intriguing discovery.

Art23

10-15-2021, 05:47 PM

Roy

10-15-2021, 05:59 PM

Peterski

10-15-2021, 07:29 PM

I think many Poles are Belarusians in disguise, those Poles having ancestry from NE Polish territories may appear Finnesque. Those "Kashubians" may have grandparents which came from what is now Belarus.

Absolutely not, this sample has confirmed genealogy and all 16 great-great-grandparents were born in Kashubia, which is NW Poland, not NE. I added this sample to Global25, do you think I would add someone without confirmed genealogy?

Also, this Polish_Kashubian samples does not plot at all like Belarusians. Check yourself in Global25 PCAs.

BTW, I also added Sorb_Niederlausitz.

vbnetkhio

10-15-2021, 10:26 PM

Yes it is one person, I sent it to Davidski for G25. I have this person's K36, K15, K47, etc. as well - and seems typical, not different than average Kashubs.

Check K36:

Sample Kashubian1.txt
Amerindian 0
Arabian 0
Armenian 0
Basque 1.57
Central African 0
Central Euro 12.69
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 4.81
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 20.92
East Med 0
Eastern Euro 15.18
Fennoscandian 16.3
French 4.75
Iberian 3.59
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 1.01
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 0
North African 0
North Atlantic 7.49
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 11.59
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0.1
West African 0
West Caucasian 0
West Med 0

With K36 he is closest to Kashubian average:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
Europe_PL_Pomorskie-Kashubia
0.5723373
(...)

Imputed file for comparison:

Sample Kashubian1_imputed.txt
Amerindian 0
Arabian 0
Armenian 0
Basque 1.57
Central African 0
Central Euro 12.7
East African 0
East Asian 0
East Balkan 4.6
East Central Asian 0
East Central Euro 20.58
East Med 0
Eastern Euro 15.14
Fennoscandian 16.48
French 4.58
Iberian 3.9
Indo-Chinese 0
Italian 1.71
Malayan 0
Near Eastern 0
North African 0
North Atlantic 7.29
North Caucasian 0
North Sea 10.93
Northeast African 0
Oceanian 0
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South Asian 0
South Central Asian 0
South Chinese 0
Volga-Ural 0.53
West African 0
West Caucasian 0
West Med 0

could you post some Kashubian k13 results?

vbnetkhio

10-16-2021, 08:28 AM

There's apparently a N1c diversity peak in Northern Poland: (the map on the right)
https://i.imgur.com/6bT5ciX.png

Roy

10-16-2021, 03:27 PM

Ok, I have figured out what you meant Tomenable in that distance ratio. It's about trying to find out the specific drift or admixtures separating two populations.

smd555

10-17-2021, 08:33 AM

Here are for example two Ukraininan kits. The first one is from Chernigivska oblast. The second one - I dont know but the surname is more common for north-western Ukraine.

1.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 32.52
2 North_Sea 24.21
3 Eastern_Euro 17.67
4 Atlantic 14.68
5 West_Med 4.96
6 South_Asian 1.77
7 Oceanian 1.38
8 West_Asian 1.34
9 Northeast_African 0.77
10 Siberian 0.45
11 Amerindian 0.24
12 Southeast_Asian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Estonian 5.66
2 Lithuanian 6.52
3 Belorussian 6.6
4 Polish 6.62
5 Ukrainian 6.74
6 Ukrainian_Lviv 7.14
7 South_Polish 7.31
8 Estonian_Polish 7.47
9 Russian_Smolensk 7.85
10 Southwest_Russian 8.19
11 Ukrainian_Belgorod 8.89
12 Finnish 12.17
13 Kargopol_Russian 12.36
14 East_Finnish 13.24
15 Southwest_Finnish 13.56
16 Croatian 13.58
17 Erzya 14.33
18 Hungarian 14.67
19 La_Brana-1 14.91
20 Moldavian 15.45

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79.9% Lithuanian + 20.1% Swedish @ 3.68
2 81.2% Lithuanian + 18.8% Norwegian @ 3.73
3 82.2% Lithuanian + 17.8% West_German @ 3.73
4 82.8% Lithuanian + 17.2% West_Norwegian @ 3.81
5 78.3% Lithuanian + 21.7% North_Swedish @ 3.93
6 84.9% Lithuanian + 15.1% Orcadian @ 4.06
7 82.8% Lithuanian + 17.2% North_Dutch @ 4.06
8 84.2% Lithuanian + 15.8% Southwest_English @ 4.1
9 53.6% Lithuanian + 46.4% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 4.17
10 75.9% Lithuanian + 24.1% East_German @ 4.23
11 51.4% Lithuanian + 48.6% Ukrainian @ 4.26
12 83.2% Lithuanian + 16.8% Danish @ 4.27
13 84.5% Lithuanian + 15.5% Southeast_English @ 4.27
14 61% Estonian + 39% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 4.35
15 84.8% Lithuanian + 15.2% West_Scottish @ 4.36
16 85.2% Lithuanian + 14.8% French @ 4.36
17 83.5% Lithuanian + 16.5% South_Dutch @ 4.37
18 84.6% Lithuanian + 15.4% Irish @ 4.37
19 82.3% Lithuanian + 17.7% North_German @ 4.4
20 74.5% Lithuanian + 25.5% Hungarian @ 4.43

2.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 29.06
2 Baltic 28.58
3 Eastern_Euro 20.86
4 Atlantic 13.32
5 West_Med 4.35
6 East_Med 1.64
7 Red_Sea 0.93
8 Southeast_Asian 0.52
9 Northeast_African 0.41
10 West_Asian 0.33

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Estonian 5.49
2 Ukrainian 7.73
3 Polish 8.14
4 Ukrainian_Lviv 8.7
5 South_Polish 8.84
6 Finnish 9.42
7 Belorussian 9.81
8 Southwest_Russian 10.3
9 Estonian_Polish 10.41
10 Lithuanian 10.7
11 Russian_Smolensk 10.99
12 East_Finnish 11.01
13 Ukrainian_Belgorod 11.11
14 Southwest_Finnish 11.22
15 Kargopol_Russian 12.29
16 Hungarian 14.12
17 Erzya 14.47
18 Croatian 14.77
19 East_German 15.17
20 North_Swedish 15.55

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 71.2% Estonian + 28.8% Ukrainian @ 4.93
2 90.3% Estonian + 9.7% West_German @ 4.95
3 85.7% Estonian + 14.3% Hungarian @ 5.03
4 76.4% Estonian + 23.6% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 5.04
5 89.4% Estonian + 10.6% Swedish @ 5.06
6 91.2% Estonian + 8.8% West_Norwegian @ 5.07
7 90.3% Estonian + 9.7% Norwegian @ 5.08
8 96% Estonian + 4% Libyan_Jewish @ 5.09
9 94.2% Estonian + 5.8% Greek_Thessaly @ 5.11
10 88% Estonian + 12% North_Swedish @ 5.11
11 96.3% Estonian + 3.7% Algerian @ 5.15
12 94.3% Estonian + 5.7% Spanish_Galicia @ 5.15
13 89% Estonian + 11% Moldavian @ 5.16
14 88.4% Estonian + 11.6% East_German @ 5.16
15 96.5% Estonian + 3.5% Moroccan @ 5.16
16 91.7% Estonian + 8.3% Serbian @ 5.16
17 93.6% Estonian + 6.4% French @ 5.18
18 95.5% Estonian + 4.5% Ashkenazi @ 5.19
19 96.8% Estonian + 3.2% Sardinian @ 5.19
20 96.3% Estonian + 3.7% Italian_Jewish @ 5.19