Is North Slavic genetics considered boring compared to South Slavic

[Peterski]

There seem to be much more interest and debates about South Slavic genetics than North Slavic.

[Peterski]

I think the presence of at least some genetically Belarusian-like individuals among the Medieval West Slavs from what is now Sachsen-Anhalt (Krakauer Berg) is a strong piece of evidence that the Proto-Slavs or Early Slavs had to be similar to modern Belarusians, not to modern Ukrainians:


DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA001,0.129758,0.125926,0.07 5424,0.072029,0.046778,0.026774,0.011986,0.010384,-0.001636,-0.021322,-0.003085,-0.006294,0.008028,0.021194,-0.013843,0.013789,0.019036,-0.005701,0.00352,0.005378,0.004991,-0.008408,0.000986,-0.006145,0.001796
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA002,0.126344,0.129988,0.06 7127,0.059109,0.03693,0.019243,0.007755,0.010615,0 .001227,-0.023508,-0.001949,-0.008842,0.012339,0.014313,0.000136,0.009149,0.007 823,-0.007728,0.002263,0.006128,-0.003369,-0.005935,0.00419,-0.002048,-0.008502
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA003,0.127482,0.121864,0.07 995,0.072675,0.052317,0.013108,0.008695,0.012461,0 .004704,-0.023144,-0.00341,-0.005695,0.016204,0.007019,-0.005836,0.021745,0.020861,-0.001267,0.00176,0.002501,-0.008984,-0.005193,0.005546,0.00976,0.005748
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004,0.12862,0.131003,0.082 967,0.075259,0.048624,0.025937,0.00752,0.011999,0. 002863,-0.019135,0.002111,-0.008692,0.020218,0.021607,-0.0095,0.009546,0.007953,-0.0019,0.005531,0.008504,-0.011355,0.005688,0.005916,-0.01699,-0.004191
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA005,0.120652,0.137096,0.07 1276,0.071706,0.049548,0.01004,0.01081,0.014538,-0.009408,-0.018041,-0.00341,-0.001499,0.003419,0.018717,0.00285,-0.004773,0.003129,-0.002154,0.005154,0.004502,-0.009858,-0.004946,0.008381,-0.007591,0.001796
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA006,0.130897,0.125926,0.06 2979,0.063308,0.040623,0.019801,0.00329,0.013846,0 .001227,-0.020046,-0.00065,-0.01079,0.016353,0.026148,-0.015065,-0.01538,-0.002738,-0.003547,0.005405,-0.007379,0.000624,0.003462,0.00493,-0.006627,-0.001078
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA007,0.129758,0.133034,0.08 2967,0.070737,0.049548,0.026216,0.005405,0.011769,-0.002659,-0.036447,0.003735,-0.01124,0.018285,0.023946,-0.009365,-0.014452,-0.002738,0.001014,-0.001131,0.010755,0.000374,0.001237,-0.001972,-0.009158,0.012214
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA008,0.132035,0.135065,0.07 6555,0.06137,0.043085,0.025937,0.00564,0.007384,0. 002045,-0.02041,-0.010555,-0.005995,0.014569,0.004129,-0.012758,0.001856,0.022035,-0.000633,0.005531,0.002501,-0.00025,-0.002349,-0.001849,-0.006748,0.001078
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010,0.129758,0.123895,0.06 5996,0.065246,0.042777,0.025937,0.007755,0.009461,-0.005113,-0.018588,-0.002273,-0.009442,0.013528,0.021469,-0.00665,-0.012331,-0.009648,-0.007221,0.006662,-0.007504,-0.000499,0.000866,0.007518,-0.003253,-0.000958
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011,0.125205,0.129988,0.07 8818,0.072675,0.047701,0.027889,0.013161,0.006692, 0.005522,-0.020593,-0.00065,-0.009292,0.018583,0.027249,-0.011672,-0.010342,-0.006389,0.00266,0.008045,0.002876,-0.011729,-0.008037,0.007272,-0.003494,0.003952

Vbnetkhio do you agree with me?

I'm asking you because you used to argue that Proto-Slavs were Ukrainian-like.

But how can we explain Belarusian-like individuals in Krakauer Berg? And Av2?

There was no Baltic migration to Sachsen-Anhalt, only Slavic.

[Peterski]

Av2 from Szolad is also Belarusian-like (and - if I recall correctly - Av1 was Av2's son and probably had one Non-Slavic parent):


<tbody>
Distance to:
HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2


0.02285860
Belarusian


0.02419895
Lithuanian_PA


0.02505394
Russian_Smolensk


0.02541556
Russian_Voronez


</tbody>

[Dušan]

Sorry, but South Slavic genetics is indeed more interesting.

[Peterski]

Krakauer Berg Slavic samples in:

Eurogenes K13:


KRA001,25.96,48.00,13.69,6.89,0,0,2.36,0.65,0.29,0 .90,0.97,0.29,0
KRA002,32.83,40.49,8.72,4.20,8.75,0.08,1.21,0,1.04 ,0.92,0.65,1.10,0
KRA003,37.41,43.66,9.37,1.83,2.01,0.45,0,0,1.08,1. 26,1.87,1.06,0
KRA004,33.97,49.45,10.27,0,0.33,1.90,0.77,0,1.06,0 .49,0.56,0.23,0.96
KRA005,29.61,46.01,11.93,6.25,1.70,0,0,0,0.82,0,2. 08,0,1.60
KRA006,25.65,44.48,12.02,5.98,5.26,1.24,3.24,0,1.0 1,0.52,0.34,0,0.26
KRA007,30.91,51.79,7.03,5.17,0,2.47,0.41,0,0,0.58, 0.86,0.77,0
KRA008,27.67,45.53,14.54,3.66,4.95,0.65,0,0.34,0,2 .39,0,0.27,0
KRA009,24.47,43.30,13.21,4.64,4.90,2.77,1.96,0,0,1 .29,2.18,1.04,0.24
KRA010,28.23,45.68,9.85,4.59,4.85,0.16,2.48,0.99,0 .16,1.23,0.51,0,1.28
KRA011,29.81,50.81,9.38,1.82,1.42,1.44,1.66,0,0,1. 05,1.22,1.39,0

Eurogenes K15:


KRA001,22.24,12.81,31.32,18.94,8.00,3.85,0,0,1.39, 0,0,0.62,0.82,0,0
KRA002,30.31,11.62,25.10,16.20,6.19,2.69,4.88,0,0. 69,0,0,0.62,0.49,1.21,0
KRA003,30.30,15.79,24.42,20.97,5.67,0,0,0,0,0,0,0. 82,1.33,0.70,0
KRA004,22.64,17.84,34.15,18.21,5.27,0,0,0.44,0,0,0 ,0.20,0.42,0,0.82
KRA005,19.73,18.33,33.09,16.42,5.93,3.83,0,0,0,0,0 ,0,1.77,0,0.90
KRA006,17.77,17.24,29.71,17.82,7.74,5.03,0.72,0.62 ,2.76,0,0,0.46,0.14,0,0
KRA007,19.35,20.60,33.36,21.13,1.85,2.46,0,0.80,0, 0,0,0,0.29,0.16,0
KRA008,21.36,17.04,29.16,17.91,9.25,3.19,0.11,0.63 ,0,0,0,1.21,0,0.14,0
KRA009,20.88,11.44,31.71,15.00,7.71,3.48,1.80,3.43 ,1.05,0,0,0.73,1.89,0.59,0.29
KRA010,21.47,14.09,30.57,18.77,5.76,3.25,1.70,0,2. 23,0.12,0,0.61,0.22,0,1.20
KRA011,21.46,18.11,32.37,20.47,4.33,0.09,0,0.64,0. 16,0,0,0.07,1.01,1.29,0

Dodecad K12b:


KRA001,5.59,0,0,0.51,23.80,57.22,0.58,0,0,0.50,9.6 3,2.17
KRA002,5.29,1.34,1.19,0,23.76,53.28,0.30,0,0.92,0, 12.48,1.43
KRA003,4.17,1.60,0.24,0.32,27.21,57.99,0,0.42,0,0, 7.10,0.94
KRA004,2.55,1.28,0,0.82,25.17,60.69,0,0,1.43,0,5.9 3,2.13
KRA005,5.26,0.33,0,0.18,24.37,55.82,0,0,0,0,11.75, 2.29
KRA006,0.03,0,0,0.27,23.44,53.22,2.62,1.04,2.93,0, 16.45,0
KRA007,4.62,0,0,0,21.97,61.97,0.74,0,2.50,0,7.62,0 .59
KRA008,4.59,0,0,0,25.46,57.14,0,0.21,1.09,0.76,9.2 2,1.52
KRA009,1.37,0,2.99,0,21.22,54.62,1.97,0.44,0,2.27, 14.25,0.87
KRA010,1.47,0.70,0,0,22.23,56.69,2.62,0.46,0.41,1. 12,12.66,1.65
KRA011,1.81,0,0.75,1.45,23.96,61.60,1.69,1.17,0.71 ,0,5.79,1.07

By the way, these samples span over a period of several centuries.

Probably the ones which are more Belarusian-like, are the oldest?

[vbnetkhio]

There seem to be much more interest and debates about South Slavic genetics than North Slavic.

Because most people wrongly assume the North Slavic areas are simply purely Slavic, and were always like that, and don't pay much attention to the nuances.
However, the aDna from these areas shows a much more complex pixture.

[vbnetkhio]

But how can we explain Belarusian-like individuals in Krakauer Berg? And Av2?


But how did the modern North Ukrainians form then? They are more "southern" than these samples.
The explanation is that back in the Slavic homeland, some Slavic tribes bordered the Balts, and had recent admixture from them, and these are their descendants who went West and south. But they were the minority among Slavs.

[Dirdepo]

But how did the modern North Ukrainians form then? They are more "southern" than these samples.
The explanation is that back in the Slavic homeland, some Slavic tribes bordered the Balts, and had recent admixture from them, and these are their descendants who went West and south. But they were the minority among Slavs.

Ukraine is biggest landmass in Europe you have different tribes there. Ukrainians were formed in 1991. You have different geography, steppe, mountains, forests, coast this produced various tribes. Not a unilateral one, the Ukrainians were united only 1991 by government before that they were scattered tribes that either were unoffically united or not united at all and still opposed to eachother until today.

[Sandis]

Maybe here are just more genetics fans from South Slavic countries, so we have more topics about South Slavic genetics.

[Lemminkäinen]

Vahaduo K13

Distance to: Mm
5.71720211 KRA003
8.03704548 KRA004
10.07663138 KRA007
10.17446805 KRA005
10.36558730 KRA011
10.69744362 KRA010
11.06430748 KRA002
13.35136697 KRA008
13.75999273 KRA006
13.81274050 KRA001
15.44128881 KRA009

Target: Mm
Distance: 4.9394% / 4.93944820
75.3 KRA003
24.7 KRA007

[Dirdepo]

Most relevant and origin culture is Sântana de Mureș-Chernyakhov culture.

110369

The tribes surrounding us are hybridized dilutions of our kin. Eastern Europeans retained this culture more than any other racialized modern geographical groups I'm from this type of culture so I know our history precisely, indeed. When you look in modern DNA you see people as Romanians belonging to this group and also Belarusians and many others in between and to the side. That is the truth. When you score 100% or higher in some cases of this culture in a modern sense it is very honorable to have retained a nearly 2000 year old culture (if not older, yet to be fully examined). The reason why some people can score 100% of this culture is because they had to defeat many opposition invaders mainly Khazars, Mongols, Tatars, Seljuk Ottomans, Nazi Germans. The people that were unable to defeat these opposing invaders had to receive new racialized groups Central Asian, East Asian, West Asian, Western European, Balkan, etc added on to their Eastern European component these people are hybridized between invader groups that got in there. However, some retained this bloodlines by honor because they ancestors was legitimate successors of opposing powers in the region maybe their ancestors had military power or were guards for new colonies that were quickly forming for example the largest one, Ottoman Empire. Although in many cases this varying admixtures in our neighbors was from pillage, rape, or attempting to establish new dynasties between oppositions to use as puppets going forward and undermine the defending tribes. They were somewhat successful in their offsprings using politics to undermine our origins (thread title is example of that), the knockout punch however was WWII not because we didn't win many key battles, we won many battles in WWII but the knockout punch was eventually the politics used against us to attempt to establish a new order, mainly between Stalin, Roosevelt, Churchill. I know this last point is true my paternal Uncle a political figure and revolutionary fighter was killed in 1939 for this reasons.

Some also credit us legitimate heirs of Scythian, Hunnic, Gepidic, Avaric, Bulgarian, Vlach dynasties ofcourse we hold these surnames until modern times.

[Scandal]

Well...
https://i.imgur.com/JRMEoHw.jpg

[Peterski]

Early Medieval Polish from Cedynia (a site of a famous battle in 972 AD, by the way) is also "Belarusian":


<tbody>
Distance to:
POL_Cedynia_VA:VK212


0.02470261
Belarusian


0.02643228
Russian_Smolensk


0.02905136
Lithuanian_PA


0.03049418
Lithuanian_VA


0.03103757
Lithuanian_VZ


0.03144912
Russian_Pskov


0.03156080
Russian_Voronez

</tbody>

There are also Pohansko samples from Moravia, Czech Republic, some of which also look Belarusian-like.

If we average these samples:


CZE_Pohansko_MA:POH13,0.127482 ,0.132019,0.083721,0.078489,0.050471,0.026495,0.00 517,0.018922,0.004295,-0.028429,-0.004384,-0.006744,0.017988,0.043076,-0.008143,-0.011668,0.005346,0.000507,0.004022,0.012256,-0.012228,-0.008903,0.01368,-0.013496,-0.002395
CZE_Pohansko_MA:POH28,0.141141 ,0.136081,0.087492,0.081719,0.047086,0.027052,0.01 9976,0.023999,0.010635,-0.01385,-0.001299,-0.014537,0.027502,0.03647,-0.015065,-0.007425,-0.014473,-0.005954,-0.005531,0,-0.007237,-0.004204,0.000616,-0.00964,-0.002275
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA001,0.129758,0.125926,0.07 5424,0.072029,0.046778,0.026774,0.011986,0.010384,-0.001636,-0.021322,-0.003085,-0.006294,0.008028,0.021194,-0.013843,0.013789,0.019036,-0.005701,0.00352,0.005378,0.004991,-0.008408,0.000986,-0.006145,0.001796
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004,0.12862,0.131003,0.082 967,0.075259,0.048624,0.025937,0.00752,0.011999,0. 002863,-0.019135,0.002111,-0.008692,0.020218,0.021607,-0.0095,0.009546,0.007953,-0.0019,0.005531,0.008504,-0.011355,0.005688,0.005916,-0.01699,-0.004191
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA006,0.130897,0.125926,0.06 2979,0.063308,0.040623,0.019801,0.00329,0.013846,0 .001227,-0.020046,-0.00065,-0.01079,0.016353,0.026148,-0.015065,-0.01538,-0.002738,-0.003547,0.005405,-0.007379,0.000624,0.003462,0.00493,-0.006627,-0.001078
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA007,0.129758,0.133034,0.08 2967,0.070737,0.049548,0.026216,0.005405,0.011769,-0.002659,-0.036447,0.003735,-0.01124,0.018285,0.023946,-0.009365,-0.014452,-0.002738,0.001014,-0.001131,0.010755,0.000374,0.001237,-0.001972,-0.009158,0.012214
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010,0.129758,0.123895,0.06 5996,0.065246,0.042777,0.025937,0.007755,0.009461,-0.005113,-0.018588,-0.002273,-0.009442,0.013528,0.021469,-0.00665,-0.012331,-0.009648,-0.007221,0.006662,-0.007504,-0.000499,0.000866,0.007518,-0.003253,-0.000958
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011,0.125205,0.129988,0.07 8818,0.072675,0.047701,0.027889,0.013161,0.006692, 0.005522,-0.020593,-0.00065,-0.009292,0.018583,0.027249,-0.011672,-0.010342,-0.006389,0.00266,0.008045,0.002876,-0.011729,-0.008037,0.007272,-0.003494,0.003952
HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2,0.134311,0.126941,0.081458,0.0 65569,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769,0.004704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5e-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
POL_Cedynia_VA:VK212,0.124067,0.135065,0.075424,0. 072029,0.038469,0.027052,0.011986,0.020538,0.00634 ,-0.027153,-0.006171,-0.01169,0.022002,0.031516,-0.016694,-0.01127,0.002347,0.003041,0.005028,-0.001501,-0.010606,0.004946,0.007518,-0.005422,0.00479
DNK_Funen_VA:VK139,0.1161,0.131003,0.076178,0.0739 67,0.047393,0.02761,-0.0047,0.011307,0.010635,-0.020957,0.003573,-0.007793,0.018137,0.026148,-0.008822,-0.00305,-0.001043,0.001014,0.003897,0.002376,-0.003119,-0.007419,0.00912,-0.003494,-0.003233

We get such average:


EarlySlavic,0.1276082222,0.1300800909,0.077584,0.0 719115455,0.0449873636,0.0267735455,0.0073636667,0 .0131532727,0.0033466364,-0.0226636364,-0.0010480909,-0.0092644545,0.0175285455,0.0272241818,-0.01182,-0.0060389091,0.00032,-0.0010478182,0.004011,0.0025761,-0.0044806364,-0.0021356364,0.006308,-0.0077116364,0.0010232727


<tbody>
Distance to:
EarlySlavic


0.01277720
Belarusian


0.01551626
Russian_Smolensk


0.01731948
Lithuanian_PA


0.01920299
Lithuanian_VA


0.02043099
Russian_Pskov


0.02068957
Russian_Voronez


0.02166689
Russian_Kaluga


0.02292616
Lithuanian_VZ


</tbody>

[Dirdepo]

I thank bog everyday I belong to Sântana de Mureș-Chernyakhov and have such a purely rich culture to my name.

[Sandis]

These are the closest G25 distances from Krakauer Berg (Middle Ages) among modern populations:

https://i.ibb.co/MNjY21z/Krakauer-Berg4.png

[Peterski]

But how did the modern North Ukrainians form then? They are more "southern" than these samples.

I would not be so sure!

Some Ukrainians overlap with this Early_Slavic cluster, and these are more likely Northern and Eastern than Southern and Western Ukrainians:

https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#NorthEurope

https://i.imgur.com/Wr3bdhF.png


Early_Slavic:KRA001,0.129758,0.125926,0.075424,0.0 72029,0.046778,0.026774,0.011986,0.010384,-0.001636,-0.021322,-0.003085,-0.006294,0.008028,0.021194,-0.013843,0.013789,0.019036,-0.005701,0.00352,0.005378,0.004991,-0.008408,0.000986,-0.006145,0.001796
Early_Slavic:KRA004,0.12862,0.131003,0.082967,0.07 5259,0.048624,0.025937,0.00752,0.011999,0.002863,-0.019135,0.002111,-0.008692,0.020218,0.021607,-0.0095,0.009546,0.007953,-0.0019,0.005531,0.008504,-0.011355,0.005688,0.005916,-0.01699,-0.004191
Early_Slavic:KRA006,0.130897,0.125926,0.062979,0.0 63308,0.040623,0.019801,0.00329,0.013846,0.001227,-0.020046,-0.00065,-0.01079,0.016353,0.026148,-0.015065,-0.01538,-0.002738,-0.003547,0.005405,-0.007379,0.000624,0.003462,0.00493,-0.006627,-0.001078
Early_Slavic:KRA007,0.129758,0.133034,0.082967,0.0 70737,0.049548,0.026216,0.005405,0.011769,-0.002659,-0.036447,0.003735,-0.01124,0.018285,0.023946,-0.009365,-0.014452,-0.002738,0.001014,-0.001131,0.010755,0.000374,0.001237,-0.001972,-0.009158,0.012214
Early_Slavic:KRA010,0.129758,0.123895,0.065996,0.0 65246,0.042777,0.025937,0.007755,0.009461,-0.005113,-0.018588,-0.002273,-0.009442,0.013528,0.021469,-0.00665,-0.012331,-0.009648,-0.007221,0.006662,-0.007504,-0.000499,0.000866,0.007518,-0.003253,-0.000958
Early_Slavic:KRA011,0.125205,0.129988,0.078818,0.0 72675,0.047701,0.027889,0.013161,0.006692,0.005522 ,-0.020593,-0.00065,-0.009292,0.018583,0.027249,-0.011672,-0.010342,-0.006389,0.00266,0.008045,0.002876,-0.011729,-0.008037,0.007272,-0.003494,0.003952
Early_Slavic:Av2,0.134311,0.126941,0.081458,0.0655 69,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769,0.004704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5e-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
Early_Slavic:VK212,0.124067,0.135065,0.075424,0.07 2029,0.038469,0.027052,0.011986,0.020538,0.00634,-0.027153,-0.006171,-0.01169,0.022002,0.031516,-0.016694,-0.01127,0.002347,0.003041,0.005028,-0.001501,-0.010606,0.004946,0.007518,-0.005422,0.00479
Early_Slavic:POH13,0.127482 ,0.132019,0.083721,0.078489,0.050471,0.026495,0.00 517,0.018922,0.004295,-0.028429,-0.004384,-0.006744,0.017988,0.043076,-0.008143,-0.011668,0.005346,0.000507,0.004022,0.012256,-0.012228,-0.008903,0.01368,-0.013496,-0.002395
Early_Slavic:POH28,0.141141 ,0.136081,0.087492,0.081719,0.047086,0.027052,0.01 9976,0.023999,0.010635,-0.01385,-0.001299,-0.014537,0.027502,0.03647,-0.015065,-0.007425,-0.014473,-0.005954,-0.005531,0,-0.007237,-0.004204,0.000616,-0.00964,-0.002275
Early_Slavic:VK139,0.1161,0.131003,0.076178,0.0739 67,0.047393,0.02761,-0.0047,0.011307,0.010635,-0.020957,0.003573,-0.007793,0.018137,0.026148,-0.008822,-0.00305,-0.001043,0.001014,0.003897,0.002376,-0.003119,-0.007419,0.00912,-0.003494,-0.003233
Belarusian:Belarusian1,0.127482,0.122879,0.075047, 0.06783,0.050471,0.027889,0.013396,0.017999,0.0016 36,-0.027335,-0.001786,-0.013188,0.017393,0.027937,-0.0095,-0.007292,-0.002738,0.001774,0.006034,-0.000875,-0.003494,-0.004328,0.009244,-0.007712,0.002994
Belarusian:Belarusian10,0.134311,0.121864,0.07203, 0.067184,0.036622,0.030399,0.006815,0.006461,-0.00225,-0.026971,-0.002436,-0.008093,0.022894,0.02546,-0.008822,-0.008353,-0.004042,-0.00152,-0.004902,0.000125,-0.002246,-0.013354,0.0053,-0.003494,-0.00491
Belarusian:Belarusian11,0.129758,0.129988,0.075424 ,0.063954,0.043393,0.027331,0.013396,0.015692,0.00 3477,-0.023144,-0.008282,-0.008243,0.016353,0.025735,-0.010586,-0.005569,0,0.003421,0.006159,-0.009505,-0.004742,-0.000742,0.008997,-0.010483,0.004191
Belarusian:Belarusian12,0.133173,0.121864,0.080327 ,0.07752,0.037853,0.029284,0.0094,0.013153,0,-0.019499,0.001299,-0.013038,0.025124,0.02491,-0.010315,-0.008088,-0.002477,-0.004307,0.008296,-0.00075,-0.003993,-0.003339,0.012695,-0.005904,-0.004311
Belarusian:Belarusian13,0.134311,0.122879,0.079195 ,0.0646,0.036622,0.018686,0.007755,0.006923,-0.009613,-0.028611,-0.008444,-0.007194,0.011744,0.020231,-0.016965,0.00358,0.001043,-0.00114,0.000377,0.001626,-0.004866,-0.002473,0.009983,-0.008194,0.002994
Belarusian:Belarusian14,0.134311,0.121864,0.070522 ,0.07752,0.047086,0.024821,0.013161,0.01223,-0.006136,-0.025513,0.001299,-0.006594,0.015758,0.030965,-0.013436,-0.003447,0.010561,0.003041,0.001885,0.003627,-0.003868,-0.002844,0.015529,-0.010242,0.002874
Belarusian:Belarusian15,0.130897,0.125926,0.076178 ,0.074613,0.039084,0.033467,0.00752,0.011538,-0.000818,-0.025878,-0.002923,-0.008692,0.019475,0.027387,-0.015065,-0.003315,-0.013299,0.000887,0.002765,-0.006503,-0.006114,-0.004328,-0.001479,-0.009519,0.00012
Belarusian:Belarusian2,0.132035,0.12491,0.077687,0 .07752,0.040007,0.02761,0.00987,0.009923,0.00225,-0.026606,0.001949,-0.008393,0.017096,0.026561,-0.004886,-0.012331,-0.012386,-0.001014,0.006662,-0.005378,-0.011605,0.000742,0.011462,-0.007832,0.004191
Belarusian:Belarusian3,0.133173,0.12491,0.07467,0. 062662,0.035391,0.021475,0.0094,0.016615,0.001432,-0.025513,-0.00747,-0.00015,0.02111,0.035507,-0.006243,-0.00053,-0.00691,-0.000887,0.004148,-0.004752,-0.008235,-0.008037,0.015406,-0.002289,-0.00467
Belarusian:Belarusian4,0.135449,0.119832,0.073916, 0.059755,0.041854,0.020359,0.014101,0.014307,-0.003068,-0.026606,-0.004872,-0.014687,0.019623,0.032617,-0.014251,0.004243,0.002999,-0.004054,0.005531,0.005253,-0.005366,-0.005441,0.009613,-0.002651,0.001916
Belarusian:Belarusian5,0.130897,0.122879,0.078441, 0.070414,0.03693,0.024821,0.006815,0.012461,0.0022 5,-0.026606,-0.000162,-0.007793,0.01665,0.018441,-0.014386,-0.000796,0.007823,0.00114,0.009176,-0.002251,-0.001622,-0.007048,0.004437,-0.005663,0.000599
Belarusian:Belarusian6,0.12862,0.127957,0.069013,0 .069445,0.039392,0.031236,0.010105,0.021461,0.0047 04,-0.029704,-0.003573,-0.006594,0.02334,0.029176,-0.014794,-0.007823,-0.009257,0.005321,0.010307,-0.002126,0.006114,-0.00507,0.003574,-0.009158,0.002395
Belarusian:Belarusian7,0.137726,0.121864,0.077687, 0.070414,0.041546,0.021475,0.008695,0.007846,0.001 841,-0.014579,-0.001624,-0.014987,0.024826,0.021882,-0.015336,0.002519,0.013821,0.000253,-0.00264,0.002376,-0.001747,-0.005935,0.001972,-0.005663,0.001317
Belarusian:Belarusian8,0.130897,0.12491,0.06939,0. 075259,0.043393,0.030678,0.013161,0.013615,-0.000409,-0.027882,0.002761,-0.014687,0.022596,0.026148,-0.0076,-0.001061,0.005346,0.000633,0.008925,0.001501,-0.00287,-0.000618,0.006902,-0.003012,-0.005508
Belarusian:Belarusian9,0.130897,0.119832,0.075801, 0.065246,0.033852,0.029005,0.017391,0.019615,0.000 614,-0.014579,-0.006171,-0.005845,0.015907,0.035507,-0.006786,-0.008751,-0.004955,0.002027,-0.000628,0.001876,-0.008859,-0.006306,0.002218,-0.011086,0.006227
Ukrainian:UCH945_ukrainian_Tsherk,0.129758,0.11780 1,0.058831,0.053618,0.034776,0.01506,0.012691,0.01 1769,-0.005318,-0.019864,0.001786,-0.007493,0.012339,0.014038,-0.009093,0.010475,0.022817,-0.00228,-0.003268,0.005753,-0.007237,-0.002597,-0.000246,-0.001084,0.001317
Ukrainian:UKR-1283,0.130897,0.137096,0.071653,0.05168,0.03139,0. 014223,0.00893,0.006,0.00225,-0.012028,-0.007145,-0.010491,0.015312,0.00578,-0.004479,0.005304,0.01708,0.000253,0.002137,0.0093 79,-0.004492,-0.00272,0.006409,0.001566,-0.006826
Ukrainian:UKR-1291,0.134311,0.127957,0.06675,0.0646,0.03693,0.01 9801,0.0047,0.007615,-0.004909,-0.011116,-0.004384,-0.002997,0.011001,0.012111,-0.008279,0.006232,0.014081,0.003167,0.007165,0.007 003,0.002246,-0.003091,0.013064,-0.006025,-0.004311
Ukrainian:UKR-1292,0.12862,0.11577,0.078818,0.066538,0.039392,0. 020359,0.005405,0.011538,-0.003477,-0.023326,0.002111,-0.014387,0.015758,0.017891,-0.017236,0.004375,0.011995,0.000253,0.001885,0.001 751,-0.008235,-0.00136,0.000246,-0.003494,-0.000479
Ukrainian:UKR-1377,0.132035,0.125926,0.065996,0.057817,0.039392, 0.025937,0.00141,0.022384,-0.001636,-0.020228,0.000487,-0.009741,0.019921,0.018854,-0.008822,-0.001193,0.012647,-0.001267,-0.003394,0.001,0.003244,-0.000989,0.002835,-0.008435,0
Ukrainian:UKR-1399,0.12862,0.127957,0.076933,0.056848,0.045547,0 .024542,0.00893,0.013384,-0.0045,-0.022233,-0.002111,-0.009142,0.014271,0.018854,-0.010993,-0.001326,0.008736,-0.005828,-0.001634,0.002626,0.00262,-0.003462,0.00456,0.00012,0.000359
Ukrainian:UKR-1903,0.130897,0.117801,0.061471,0.060078,0.042469, 0.03514,0.006815,0.014076,-0.007772,-0.01549,-0.00406,-0.006444,0.02661,0.025185,-0.015472,0.010342,0.010952,-0.000887,0.00088,0.007629,0.002995,-0.004699,0.009244,-0.004217,0.002155
Ukrainian:UKR-1909,0.138864,0.125926,0.073916,0.064277,0.028928, 0.027331,0.006815,0.010615,-0.003477,-0.025695,-0.004872,-0.01109,0.020367,0.023258,-0.014794,-0.012463,-0.010431,-0.003674,0.003897,0.005878,-0.006364,-0.005935,0.009983,-0.008073,0.002275
Ukrainian:UKR-1913,0.120652,0.11577,0.061848,0.046189,0.036622,0 .015618,0.011516,0.020538,-0.001023,-0.016401,0.00341,-0.010041,0.007284,0.019818,-0.00665,-0.006762,-0.000391,-0.002027,-0.003645,0.005378,-0.003494,0.005317,0.011462,0.010483,0.005029
Ukrainian:UKR-1951,0.134311,0.12491,0.06675,0.062016,0.041546,0. 020917,0.015041,0.002077,0.001432,-0.020957,-0.005034,-0.007643,0.016799,0.019818,-0.010722,-0.001591,0.019166,0.000507,0.000503,0.008379,0.003 993,-0.005317,0.001972,0.006145,0.00491
Ukrainian:UKR-1978,0.135449,0.13405,0.075047,0.060401,0.028313,0 .024542,0.009165,0.009692,-0.006749,-0.027335,-0.003248,-0.004946,0.012042,0.0139,-0.015065,0.000265,-0.001565,-0.006208,-0.00088,-0.002376,-0.00549,-0.003339,0.015529,-0.002048,-0.002275
Ukrainian:UKR-1992,0.133173,0.12491,0.082967,0.06137,0.045239,0. 018128,0.007285,0.014538,-0.002045,-0.02606,-0.009419,-0.006894,0.013677,0.021469,-0.017644,0.003315,0.007171,0.001014,-0.002137,0.008004,-0.004243,0.000124,0.013557,-0.012893,0.007424
Ukrainian:UKR-2021,0.132035,0.121864,0.063733,0.062662,0.039084, 0.022869,0.003995,0.012461,-0.001023,-0.01877,-0.007145,-0.008842,0.01888,0.020643,-0.007872,0.00358,0.011735,-0.002534,0.000251,0.001751,-0.00025,-0.000618,0.008011,-0.002892,0.002395
Ukrainian:Ukrainian1,0.125205,0.13405,0.062979,0.0 52649,0.040623,0.015618,0.009165,0.007846,-0.003477,-0.016401,0.000325,-0.007943,0.016055,0.017891,-0.01045,0.003713,0.011865,0.00152,0.000377,-0.003001,-0.004991,-0.006183,0.004807,0.000843,-0.000599
Ukrainian:Ukrainian10,0.126344,0.118817,0.063733,0 .067184,0.036007,0.017012,0.00611,0.01223,-0.010226,-0.020046,-0.000812,-0.005995,0.012339,0.019818,-0.008822,-0.003978,0.005346,-0.0019,-0.000377,0.005878,-0.009483,0.000618,0.006532,0.000241,0.009221
Ukrainian:Ukrainian11,0.12862,0.122879,0.061471,0. 052649,0.037545,0.018128,0.00752,0.014076,0.003272 ,-0.01713,0.001299,-0.004946,0.010555,0.026148,-0.002579,-0.003315,-0.006519,-0.003801,0.001006,-0.002876,-0.006239,-0.004699,0.001602,-0.00241,-0.001437
Ukrainian:Ukrainian12,0.130897,0.126941,0.071653,0 .056848,0.032314,0.013666,0.008695,0.006,0.001636,-0.020228,-0.001786,-0.01109,0.015461,0.0139,-0.019679,0.012066,0.025034,-0.004434,-0.000503,0.004877,-0.004742,-0.001237,0.008011,-0.007953,0.001197
Ukrainian:Ukrainian13,0.125205,0.127957,0.071653,0 .062662,0.040623,0.027889,0.00658,0.004615,-0.007567,-0.024784,0.000325,-0.006294,0.016353,0.033442,-0.012079,-0.015115,-0.013299,-0.004434,0.006913,-0.001251,-0.009109,-0.00272,0.005423,-0.011447,-0.001916
Ukrainian:Ukrainian14,0.125205,0.121864,0.06675,0. 044897,0.042469,0.024542,0.00376,0.012692,-0.003068,-0.021139,-0.00682,-0.005845,0.012636,0.024084,-0.012758,-0.008353,-0.009127,0.000253,0.001383,-0.002626,-0.013351,-0.00371,0.00493,-0.005784,-0.002874
Ukrainian:Ukrainian15,0.132035,0.118817,0.070144,0 .064277,0.044931,0.018407,0.017626,0.014538,0.0061 36,-0.01713,0.000162,-0.002398,0.013974,0.020781,-0.010858,0.002519,0.017732,0.00076,0.005782,0.0067 53,-0.010357,0.000989,0.008504,0.006507,-0.002395
Ukrainian:Ukrainian16,0.127482,0.12491,0.076933,0. 063631,0.040007,0.019801,0.007285,0.016384,-0.000205,-0.016948,0.000812,-0.015436,0.018731,0.026974,-0.014522,-0.009281,-0.0103,0.002914,0.010433,-0.007128,-0.006988,0.004204,0.006039,-0.008676,0.005868
Ukrainian:Ukrainian17,0.135449,0.120848,0.061848,0 .051357,0.040315,0.022311,0.0094,0.016845,0.001023 ,-0.020957,-0.003248,-0.009591,0.013974,0.022295,-0.010722,0.006629,0.0103,-0.00038,0.007039,-5e-04,-0.000624,-0.007172,0.00949,-0.011688,-0.004311
Ukrainian:Ukrainian18,0.137726,0.127957,0.072407,0 .055556,0.035083,0.019243,0.011986,0.008769,-0.001841,-0.023326,-0.001461,-0.007643,0.014717,0.016652,-0.012486,0.001591,0.012778,-0.002027,0.004148,-0.005253,-0.006364,-0.001731,0.008381,-0.011327,-0.006945
Ukrainian:Ukrainian19,0.134311,0.120848,0.061848,0 .055233,0.028313,0.023427,0.010575,0.016384,-0.005727,-0.019864,-0.006658,-0.007493,0.022448,0.030139,-0.004343,-0.008618,-0.010431,-0.000253,0.008422,0.00025,-0.008735,-0.01051,0.002342,-0.00253,-0.002395
Ukrainian:Ukrainian2,0.137726,0.12491,0.062602,0.0 42959,0.041854,0.021475,0.00564,0.012923,0.001227,-0.022597,0.004384,-0.008692,0.009663,0.024497,-0.011129,-0.007823,-0.007823,0.004561,0.011187,-0.004627,-0.008735,-0.013107,0.004683,-0.003374,-0.000838
Ukrainian:Ukrainian20,0.129758,0.120848,0.069013,0 .063631,0.033545,0.03012,0.00752,0.007384,-0.007976,-0.020593,0.005359,-0.012589,0.021704,0.023396,-0.006786,0.012596,0.015776,0.000887,0.003142,0.008 254,-0.009234,-0.00643,0.006409,-0.00253,0.001317
Ukrainian:Ukrainian21,0.137726,0.127957,0.064111,0 .052326,0.0437,0.023985,0.01034,0.01523,-0.003681,-0.027153,-0.002436,-0.006594,0.012042,0.025047,-0.016015,-0.004641,-0.002738,0.003421,0.003268,-0.003377,-0.010357,-0.006059,0.001849,-0.005663,-0.00455
Ukrainian:Ukrainian22,0.130897,0.128972,0.06675,0. 060401,0.045239,0.023427,0.008225,0.006461,-0.00634,-0.018406,-0.00065,-0.005095,0.007582,0.015827,-0.011536,0.011535,0.024643,0.003927,0.000377,0.001 751,-0.000374,-0.002226,0.004314,0.000964,-0.002395
Ukrainian:Ukrainian23,0.125205,0.125926,0.06675,0. 053941,0.040623,0.025379,0.00329,0.005307,0.000614 ,-0.021686,-0.004709,-0.007044,0.013825,0.024634,-0.015744,-0.008486,-0.00352,0.002914,0.007542,0.003001,-0.006613,-0.01286,0.01442,-0.005784,-0.004431
Ukrainian:Ukrainian3,0.136588,0.116786,0.071276,0. 059755,0.039084,0.023148,0.017156,0.010846,-0.008999,-0.030069,-0.001786,-0.009292,0.016055,0.013625,-0.015336,0.007955,0.024251,0.000507,0.000377,0.005 503,0.001747,-0.006183,0.002465,-0.010363,-0.000838
Ukrainian:Ukrainian4,0.132035,0.11577,0.076555,0.0 64923,0.024928,0.02259,0.015511,0.008769,-0.001227,-0.03098,0.006171,-0.010641,0.017393,0.022708,-0.013979,-0.009016,-0.010822,0.000253,0.001508,0.003502,-0.000125,-0.005812,0.008134,-0.007953,0.003592
Ukrainian:Ukrainian5,0.121791,0.141159,0.067505,0. 049419,0.039392,0.017291,0.016921,0.010153,-0.002045,-0.019864,-0.003085,-0.001798,0.017245,0.026561,-0.016694,-0.01127,-0.008866,-0.002154,0.00176,-0.005753,-0.014474,-0.003339,-0.003697,-0.002289,0.007664
Ukrainian:Ukrainian6,0.126344,0.121864,0.064111,0. 0646,0.036622,0.024542,0.00705,0.01223,-0.000205,-0.018953,-0.000487,-0.005845,0.013825,0.031653,-0.005836,-0.016441,-0.014603,0.00114,0.007039,0.001376,-0.010731,-0.005935,0.011339,-0.001566,0.006347
Ukrainian:Ukrainian7,0.125205,0.11577,0.07731,0.05 5556,0.035083,0.014781,0.00094,0.003461,-0.020861,-0.026606,0.000325,-0.007943,0.015907,0.031653,-0.009229,-0.014187,-0.010561,-0.002787,-0.006034,0.000125,0.004367,-0.010263,0.010353,-0.001205,0.003233
Ukrainian:Ukrainian8,0.133173,0.119832,0.06939,0.0 52003,0.035391,0.020638,0.013161,0.013615,-0.001841,-0.024602,-0.004547,-0.004946,0.020515,0.024497,-0.002443,0.003713,0.009779,0.000127,0.005154,0.000 125,-0.00574,0.005317,0.007641,-0.013375,0.005748
Ukrainian:Ukrainian9,0.136588,0.127957,0.065996,0. 066861,0.039392,0.018407,0.005405,0.014538,-0.000409,-0.025331,0.000487,-0.005995,0.019921,0.031791,-0.014386,-0.011005,-0.008475,-0.005448,0.002765,-0.004502,0,-0.004946,0.010723,-0.006025,0.003113
Ukrainian:ULV293_ukrainian_Lviv,0.133173,0.119832, 0.061471,0.048127,0.031698,0.01757,0.011751,0.0103 84,0.003068,-0.016401,-0.001949,-0.002098,0.011001,0.020781,-0.010179,0.008088,0.009127,-0.0019,0.01169,0.00025,-0.000499,0.003957,0.008011,-0.005904,0.003353

[Vrazijadivizija]

Well...
https://i.imgur.com/JRMEoHw.jpg

Oh man i had a good laugh.

[vbnetkhio]

I would not be so sure!

Some Ukrainians overlap with this Early_Slavic cluster, and these are more likely Northern and Eastern than Southern and Western Ukrainians:

https://vahaduo.github.io/g25views/#NorthEurope

https://i.imgur.com/Wr3bdhF.png



this is just on the North Europe PCA. Some of the Ukrainian samples have minor Finnic admixture, which shifts them northeast on this pca.
on the "Europe1" PCA it gets revealed that these early Slavs are much more Baltic shifted than Ukrainians

[Peterski]

I removed POH44 from the Early_Slavic average, this sample seems to be mixed or of mediocre quality.


this is just on the North Europe PCA. Some of the Ukrainian samples have minor Finnic admixture, which shifts them northeast on this pca.
on the "Europe1" PCA it gets revealed that these early Slavs are much more Baltic shifted than Ukrainians

There is still overlap with Ukrainians in Europe1 PCA:

https://i.imgur.com/iHJNQZy.png

[Ion Basescul]

Wasn't the main theory that Slavs pushed outward from around the Pripyat marshes? That's at the crossroads of Belarus and Ukraine.

[Peterski]

Wasn't the main theory that Slavs pushed outward from around the Pripyat marshes? That's at the crossroads of Belarus and Ukraine.

That is what some linguists claimed based on reconstructing the Proto-Slavic language and the names for trees:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTYnOR1-buE

But some archeologists say that the Pripyat marshes did not have the capacity to contain such a large population.

[Sandis]

I removed POH44 from the Early_Slavic average, this sample seems to be mixed or of mediocre quality.



There is still overlap with Ukrainians in Europe1 PCA

I included the acient samples you labeled as "Early Slavic" in my PCA. Some Ukrainians and Poles are close to Early Slavic samples. I think that i need to include more samples from Krakauer Berg:

https://i.ibb.co/FDmPSC2/PCA-Balto-Slavic2.png (https://ibb.co/LZYGLHm)

[Ion Basescul]

That is what some linguists claimed based on reconstructing the Proto-Slavic language and the names for trees:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTYnOR1-buE

But some archeologists say that the Pripyat marshes did not have the capacity to contain such a large population.

If Slavs are more alike to Balts than what was thought, then it means that all modern Slavs are also less Slavic than we think.

[Dirdepo]

Look look look again, refer to post #11

There is no proto Slavs. There is always only one real history supported by documentation, archaeology and genetics in combination, you know Yugoslav history cannot claim that because it is more or less like a puzzle without all the pieces. Yugoslav propaganda altered history is pure BS in all shapes, forms and dialects. And you are bitch niggas that get raided from all angles, 44 times your capital was burned to the ground look up the facts. The only good thing in your country 2 things, women from all cultures from rape and making hybrids and food from all cultures and making hybrid kitchen. Nothing else. THE END. Your welcome. Sântana de Mureș-Chernyakhov culture the origin of Eastern European I2.

[michal3141]

Early Medieval Polish from Cedynia (a site of a famous battle in 972 AD, by the way) is also "Belarusian":


<tbody>
Distance to:
POL_Cedynia_VA:VK212


0.02470261
Belarusian


0.02643228
Russian_Smolensk


0.02905136
Lithuanian_PA


0.03049418
Lithuanian_VA


0.03103757
Lithuanian_VZ


0.03144912
Russian_Pskov


0.03156080
Russian_Voronez

</tbody>

There are also Pohansko samples from Moravia, Czech Republic, some of which also look Belarusian-like.

If we average these samples:


CZE_Pohansko_MA:POH13,0.127482 ,0.132019,0.083721,0.078489,0.050471,0.026495,0.00 517,0.018922,0.004295,-0.028429,-0.004384,-0.006744,0.017988,0.043076,-0.008143,-0.011668,0.005346,0.000507,0.004022,0.012256,-0.012228,-0.008903,0.01368,-0.013496,-0.002395
CZE_Pohansko_MA:POH28,0.141141 ,0.136081,0.087492,0.081719,0.047086,0.027052,0.01 9976,0.023999,0.010635,-0.01385,-0.001299,-0.014537,0.027502,0.03647,-0.015065,-0.007425,-0.014473,-0.005954,-0.005531,0,-0.007237,-0.004204,0.000616,-0.00964,-0.002275
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA001,0.129758,0.125926,0.07 5424,0.072029,0.046778,0.026774,0.011986,0.010384,-0.001636,-0.021322,-0.003085,-0.006294,0.008028,0.021194,-0.013843,0.013789,0.019036,-0.005701,0.00352,0.005378,0.004991,-0.008408,0.000986,-0.006145,0.001796
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004,0.12862,0.131003,0.082 967,0.075259,0.048624,0.025937,0.00752,0.011999,0. 002863,-0.019135,0.002111,-0.008692,0.020218,0.021607,-0.0095,0.009546,0.007953,-0.0019,0.005531,0.008504,-0.011355,0.005688,0.005916,-0.01699,-0.004191
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA006,0.130897,0.125926,0.06 2979,0.063308,0.040623,0.019801,0.00329,0.013846,0 .001227,-0.020046,-0.00065,-0.01079,0.016353,0.026148,-0.015065,-0.01538,-0.002738,-0.003547,0.005405,-0.007379,0.000624,0.003462,0.00493,-0.006627,-0.001078
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA007,0.129758,0.133034,0.08 2967,0.070737,0.049548,0.026216,0.005405,0.011769,-0.002659,-0.036447,0.003735,-0.01124,0.018285,0.023946,-0.009365,-0.014452,-0.002738,0.001014,-0.001131,0.010755,0.000374,0.001237,-0.001972,-0.009158,0.012214
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010,0.129758,0.123895,0.06 5996,0.065246,0.042777,0.025937,0.007755,0.009461,-0.005113,-0.018588,-0.002273,-0.009442,0.013528,0.021469,-0.00665,-0.012331,-0.009648,-0.007221,0.006662,-0.007504,-0.000499,0.000866,0.007518,-0.003253,-0.000958
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011,0.125205,0.129988,0.07 8818,0.072675,0.047701,0.027889,0.013161,0.006692, 0.005522,-0.020593,-0.00065,-0.009292,0.018583,0.027249,-0.011672,-0.010342,-0.006389,0.00266,0.008045,0.002876,-0.011729,-0.008037,0.007272,-0.003494,0.003952
HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2,0.134311,0.126941,0.081458,0.0 65569,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769,0.004704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5e-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
POL_Cedynia_VA:VK212,0.124067,0.135065,0.075424,0. 072029,0.038469,0.027052,0.011986,0.020538,0.00634 ,-0.027153,-0.006171,-0.01169,0.022002,0.031516,-0.016694,-0.01127,0.002347,0.003041,0.005028,-0.001501,-0.010606,0.004946,0.007518,-0.005422,0.00479
DNK_Funen_VA:VK139,0.1161,0.131003,0.076178,0.0739 67,0.047393,0.02761,-0.0047,0.011307,0.010635,-0.020957,0.003573,-0.007793,0.018137,0.026148,-0.008822,-0.00305,-0.001043,0.001014,0.003897,0.002376,-0.003119,-0.007419,0.00912,-0.003494,-0.003233

We get such average:


EarlySlavic,0.1276082222,0.1300800909,0.077584,0.0 719115455,0.0449873636,0.0267735455,0.0073636667,0 .0131532727,0.0033466364,-0.0226636364,-0.0010480909,-0.0092644545,0.0175285455,0.0272241818,-0.01182,-0.0060389091,0.00032,-0.0010478182,0.004011,0.0025761,-0.0044806364,-0.0021356364,0.006308,-0.0077116364,0.0010232727


<tbody>
Distance to:
EarlySlavic


0.01277720
Belarusian


0.01551626
Russian_Smolensk


0.01731948
Lithuanian_PA


0.01920299
Lithuanian_VA


0.02043099
Russian_Pskov


0.02068957
Russian_Voronez


0.02166689
Russian_Kaluga


0.02292616
Lithuanian_VZ


</tbody>

Bruh. We need to wait for the genomic map of Poland. Apparently majority of published Polish samples to the date are Ashkenazis!

[Peterski]

Another Belarusian-like Slavic sample, but this time from Medieval Russia:


<tbody>
Distance to:
VK2020_RUS_Kurevanikha_VA:VK160


0.02042011
Lithuanian_PA


0.02139772
Belarusian


0.02316546
Lithuanian_VZ


0.02339784
Lithuanian_VA


0.02463962
Estonian

</tbody>

And also the Medieval Pole from Sandomierz in Southern (!) Poland:


<tbody>
Distance to:
VK2020_POL_Sandomierz_VA:VK494


0.03442906
Belarusian


0.03538954
Russian_Smolensk


0.03727273
Polish_Kashubian


0.03830888
Lithuanian_PA


0.03884122
Lithuanian_VZ

</tbody>

However, I will only add VK494 to the Early_Slavic average, because VK160 could be admixed by some Russian Ugro-Finnic populations.

[Sandis]

Another Belarusian-like Slavic sample, but this time from Medieval Russia:


<tbody>
Distance to:
VK2020_RUS_Kurevanikha_VA:VK160


0.02042011
Lithuanian_PA


0.02139772
Belarusian


0.02316546
Lithuanian_VZ


0.02339784
Lithuanian_VA


0.02463962
Estonian

</tbody>

And also the Medieval Pole from Sandomierz in Southern (!) Poland:


<tbody>
Distance to:
VK2020_POL_Sandomierz_VA:VK494


0.03442906
Belarusian


0.03538954
Russian_Smolensk


0.03727273
Polish_Kashubian


0.03830888
Lithuanian_PA


0.03884122
Lithuanian_VZ

</tbody>

First sample from Vologda oblast could be partly Finnic influenced because it's close to Estonian and Russian_Pskov (7th closest).
Russians from Smolensk are close to Belarusians, however they are further from Balts than Belarusians are. Interesting that they have similar distance from Sandomierz sample.

[Peterski]

New Early_Slavic average:


Early_Slavic,0.1274818,0.1297339167,0.0782525,0.07 14368333,0.0455469167,0.0274475,0.0083899,0.013249 4167,0.0033915833,-0.0222176667,-0.0015020833,-0.0092644545,0.0174305833,0.0273983333,-0.0118076667,-0.0059665833,-0.0008800833,-0.0006120833,0.0047661667,0.0025351818,-0.003317,-0.0014733333,0.00625475,-0.0074605833,0.0010278333


<tbody>
Distance to:
Early_Slavic


0.01285214
Belarusian


0.01559252
Russian_Smolensk


0.01774673
Lithuanian_PA


0.01970321
Lithuanian_VA


0.02091268
Russian_Voronez


0.02103193
Russian_Pskov


0.02194774
Russian_Kaluga


0.02288671
Lithuanian_VZ


0.02385759
Polish


0.02442825
Ukrainian

</tbody>

Made from these samples:


Early_Slavic:KRA001,0.129758,0.125926,0.075424,0.0 72029,0.046778,0.026774,0.011986,0.010384,-0.001636,-0.021322,-0.003085,-0.006294,0.008028,0.021194,-0.013843,0.013789,0.019036,-0.005701,0.00352,0.005378,0.004991,-0.008408,0.000986,-0.006145,0.001796
Early_Slavic:KRA004,0.12862,0.131003,0.082967,0.07 5259,0.048624,0.025937,0.00752,0.011999,0.002863,-0.019135,0.002111,-0.008692,0.020218,0.021607,-0.0095,0.009546,0.007953,-0.0019,0.005531,0.008504,-0.011355,0.005688,0.005916,-0.01699,-0.004191
Early_Slavic:KRA006,0.130897,0.125926,0.062979,0.0 63308,0.040623,0.019801,0.00329,0.013846,0.001227,-0.020046,-0.00065,-0.01079,0.016353,0.026148,-0.015065,-0.01538,-0.002738,-0.003547,0.005405,-0.007379,0.000624,0.003462,0.00493,-0.006627,-0.001078
Early_Slavic:KRA007,0.129758,0.133034,0.082967,0.0 70737,0.049548,0.026216,0.005405,0.011769,-0.002659,-0.036447,0.003735,-0.01124,0.018285,0.023946,-0.009365,-0.014452,-0.002738,0.001014,-0.001131,0.010755,0.000374,0.001237,-0.001972,-0.009158,0.012214
Early_Slavic:KRA010,0.129758,0.123895,0.065996,0.0 65246,0.042777,0.025937,0.007755,0.009461,-0.005113,-0.018588,-0.002273,-0.009442,0.013528,0.021469,-0.00665,-0.012331,-0.009648,-0.007221,0.006662,-0.007504,-0.000499,0.000866,0.007518,-0.003253,-0.000958
Early_Slavic:KRA011,0.125205,0.129988,0.078818,0.0 72675,0.047701,0.027889,0.013161,0.006692,0.005522 ,-0.020593,-0.00065,-0.009292,0.018583,0.027249,-0.011672,-0.010342,-0.006389,0.00266,0.008045,0.002876,-0.011729,-0.008037,0.007272,-0.003494,0.003952
Early_Slavic:Av2,0.134311,0.126941,0.081458,0.0655 69,0.035391,0.033746,0.00987,0.005769,0.004704,-0.02278,-0.002436,-0.005395,0.01219,0.020643,-0.015201,-0.003845,0.005867,0.004561,0.008673,5e-04,0.001497,-0.00272,0.013804,-0.007109,0.002634
Early_Slavic:VK212,0.124067,0.135065,0.075424,0.07 2029,0.038469,0.027052,0.011986,0.020538,0.00634,-0.027153,-0.006171,-0.01169,0.022002,0.031516,-0.016694,-0.01127,0.002347,0.003041,0.005028,-0.001501,-0.010606,0.004946,0.007518,-0.005422,0.00479
Early_Slavic:POH13,0.127482 ,0.132019,0.083721,0.078489,0.050471,0.026495,0.00 517,0.018922,0.004295,-0.028429,-0.004384,-0.006744,0.017988,0.043076,-0.008143,-0.011668,0.005346,0.000507,0.004022,0.012256,-0.012228,-0.008903,0.01368,-0.013496,-0.002395
Early_Slavic:POH28,0.141141 ,0.136081,0.087492,0.081719,0.047086,0.027052,0.01 9976,0.023999,0.010635,-0.01385,-0.001299,-0.014537,0.027502,0.03647,-0.015065,-0.007425,-0.014473,-0.005954,-0.005531,0,-0.007237,-0.004204,0.000616,-0.00964,-0.002275
Early_Slavic:VK139,0.1161,0.131003,0.076178,0.0739 67,0.047393,0.02761,-0.0047,0.011307,0.010635,-0.020957,0.003573,-0.007793,0.018137,0.026148,-0.008822,-0.00305,-0.001043,0.001014,0.003897,0.002376,-0.003119,-0.007419,0.00912,-0.003494,-0.003233
Early_Slavic:VK494,0.126344,0.125926,0.085606,0.06 6215,0.051702,0.034861,0.017626,0.014307,0.003886,-0.017312,-0.006496,3e-04,0.016353,0.029314,-0.011672,-0.005171,-0.014081,0.004181,0.013073,0.002126,0.009483,0.005 812,0.005669,-0.004699,0.001078

[Peterski]

Sorry, but South Slavic genetics is indeed more interesting.

I agree by the way, because South Slavs are more mixed. :)

[Sandis]

That is what some linguists claimed based on reconstructing the Proto-Slavic language and the names for trees:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTYnOR1-buE

But some archeologists say that the Pripyat marshes did not have the capacity to contain such a large population.

If a big green lake near the Dnieper river in this map (upside down) is Pripet marshes, then it doesn't look very populated in the 12th century, however this map isn't too accurate.

https://i.ibb.co/J3tjwJf/Idrisi.png (https://ibb.co/Hh4Tf8W)

[rothaer]

I removed POH44 from the Early_Slavic average, this sample seems to be mixed or of mediocre quality.

I suggest to also remove KRA004, KRA006, KRA007 and KRA010 and add KRA009 instead. All these individuals are rather late so there is not cause to accept them unregarded their plottinmg. Do the VK individuals plot meaningful as proto Slavs?

[Sandis]

I think that this 5th-6th century map from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Slavic_peoples makes some sense, although there are still questions about Antes:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/East_europe_5-6cc.png/1280px-East_europe_5-6cc.png

[rothaer]

Well...
https://i.imgur.com/JRMEoHw.jpg

Btw.:

https://i.imgur.com/0F04nQG.jpg

[Peterski]

All these individuals are rather late so there is not cause to accept them unregarded their plottinmg.

But they do plot how they plot, despite being so late - clearly it means that the village remained genetically "untouched", don't you think?

It is amazing and surprising, but it seems to be a fact based on how they plot. A purely Slavic village in Sachsen-Anhalt survived so long.

[rothaer]

But they do plot how they plot, despite being so late - clearly it means that the village remained genetically "untouched", don't you think?

It is amazing and surprising, but it seems to be a fact based on how they plot. A purely Slavic village in Sachsen-Anhalt survived so long.

It's indeed amazing to find untouched ones that late after many centuries. But if some of them do not plot in the known proto Slav PCA location, they can easily be somewhat admixed as well. Just think about RISE568 and RISE569. There you also would not use both, right? And they are even far earlier.

[rothaer]

If Slavs are more alike to Balts than what was thought, then it means that all modern Slavs are also less Slavic than we think.

Less proto Slav, yes, maybe. But if expanding proto Slavs mixed on their way, the individuals eventually arriving as ethnic Slavs at their destination farther away will have made up a bigger proportion than that of proto Slavs. So it depends a little bit on what exactly is intended to enlight. Both aspects are interesting imo.

Btw. this is one of the big questions within Germany when it comes to determine the contribution of historic West Slavic tribes. The lesser proto Slavic f. i. Abotrits were, the bigger must their contribution to today local Germans be. (This is the counterpart for determining the contribution of (Old-) German eastward settlement in this areas.) So it will be very interesting to get a number of samples from abt. 1000 AD from such tribes. Such data still lacks and Krakauer Berg is just a puzzle piece where we not yet know how homogenous or heterogenous the Slavic tribes in the later German people emerging area were.

[vbnetkhio]

I removed POH44 from the Early_Slavic average, this sample seems to be mixed or of mediocre quality.



There is still overlap with Ukrainians in Europe1 PCA:

https://i.imgur.com/iHJNQZy.png

but there's a clear difference on a population level. And these are not some Romanian/Hungarian influenced Ukrainians, they are typical Polesians.

btw - if proto-Slavs were identical to Belarusians - then Belarusians are 100% Slavic and 0% Baltic? There was complete population replacement?

[Dick]

Well...
https://i.imgur.com/JRMEoHw.jpg

There might be some truth to this meme. I actually have a skull and crossbones tattoo.

[Sandis]

but there's a clear difference on a population level. And these are not some Romanian/Hungarian influenced Ukrainians, they are typical Polesians.

btw - if proto-Slavs were identical to Belarusians - then Belarusians are 100% Slavic and 0% Baltic? There was complete population replacement?

We need regional samples from Belarus. There was not a full replacement.
According to this map Yotvingians lived in Brest and Pinsk in the Middle Ages (Grand Duchy of Lithuania):

https://i.tyzhden.ua/content/digest/week/november/23/yotvin.jpg

This is map from 13th century where Yotvingians are in Northern Belarus:

https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/images/Europe/Barbarians/MapAD1000_Balts01_full.jpg

But these are only later times. Scholars say that Krivichs, which is important Belarusian tribe, has significant Baltic ancestry (pre-12th century).

[vbnetkhio]

We need regional samples from Belarus. There was not a full replacement.
According to this map Yotvingians lived in Brest and Pinsk in the Middle Ages (Grand Duchy of Lithuania):

https://i.tyzhden.ua/content/digest/week/november/23/yotvin.jpg

This is map from 13th century where Yotvingians are in Northern Belarus:

https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/images/Europe/Barbarians/MapAD1000_Balts01_full.jpg

But these are only later times. Scholars say that Krivichs, which is important Belarusian tribe, has significant Baltic ancestry (pre-12th century).

there are Ukrainian and Lithuanian regional averages in g25:
https://i.imgur.com/fF8JTMY.png

the current Belarusian average is halfway between Northern Ukrainians and Southern Lithuanians. it's easy to guess where Belarusian regions will plot.

[Dušan]

I agree by the way, because South Slavs are more mixed. :)

North Slavic genetics is like good, delicious piece of meat. It is great, but something is missing.
If you add some Mediterranean sauces, spices, salads and vegetables, then you get a perfect meal. :cool:

[Dušan]

New Early_Slavic average:


Early_Slavic,0.1274818,0.1297339167,0.0782525,0.07 14368333,0.0455469167,0.0274475,0.0083899,0.013249 4167,0.0033915833,-0.0222176667,-0.0015020833,-0.0092644545,0.0174305833,0.0273983333,-0.0118076667,-0.0059665833,-0.0008800833,-0.0006120833,0.0047661667,0.0025351818,-0.003317,-0.0014733333,0.00625475,-0.0074605833,0.0010278333


<tbody>
Distance to:
Early_Slavic


0.01285214
Belarusian


0.01559252
Russian_Smolensk


0.01774673
Lithuanian_PA


0.01970321
Lithuanian_VA


0.02091268
Russian_Voronez


0.02103193
Russian_Pskov


0.02194774
Russian_Kaluga


0.02288671
Lithuanian_VZ


0.02385759
Polish


0.02442825
Ukrainian

</tbody>



Do you have this average in K13 form?

[Ion Basescul]

I agree by the way, because South Slavs are more mixed. :)

I'm not sure about that. I think the extent to which other Slavs mixed with neighbouring people is of a similar magnitude. But those foreign cultures who lived nearby were more similar genetically. But South Slavs happened to migrate from the North, so obviously the genetic contrast is more visible when they are paired with Thracians/Illyrians/etc.

[Abriekman]

I agree by the way, because South Slavs are more mixed. :)

Every group of Slavs has own exotic admixture, which other Slavs do not have.

East Slavs ( mainly Russians ) - Finno-Ugric
West Slavs - Celto-Germanic
South Slavs - Mediterranean and West Asian

Belarusians and Ukrainians are the purest Balto-Slavs almost without any foreign traces.

[Ion Basescul]

Every group of Slavs has own exotic admixture, which other Slavs do not have.

East Slavs ( mainly Russians ) - Finno-Ugric
West Slavs - Celto-Germanic
South Slavs - Mediterranean and West Asian

Belarusians and Ukrainians are the purest Balto-Slavs almost without any foreign traces.

If Belarusians received Baltic admix after Balts and Slavs formed different identities, then they also are far from pure.

[ooops]

I'm not sure about that. I think the extent to which other Slavs mixed with neighbouring people is of a similar magnitude. But those foreign cultures who lived nearby were more similar genetically. But South Slavs happened to migrate from the North, so obviously the genetic contrast is more visible when they are paired with Thracians/Illyrians/etc.

Maybe Croats and Slovenes

Montenegrins, Serbs, Bulgarians and North Macedonians are just half or less than half Slavic. North Slavs are all very similar genetically.

[Blondie]

Every group of Slavs has own exotic admixture, which other Slavs do not have.

East Slavs ( mainly Russians ) - Finno-Ugric
West Slavs - Celto-Germanic
South Slavs - Mediterranean and West Asian

Belarusians and Ukrainians are the purest Balto-Slavs almost without any foreign traces.

I doubt that poles are celto-germanic.

[Peterski]

I doubt that poles are celto-germanic.

If Proto-Slavs were Belarusian-like then - for example - my mom scores 61.4% Slavic and the rest mostly Celto-Germanic. I used Feiichy's model but I replaced her Balto-Slavic samples with my Early_Slavic(n=12) average:

https://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/Feiichy%20Slavic%20G25%20ancient%20calculator.htm

I'm not sure if this model is optimal for Poles. Probably not, something Scandinavian should be added to it, and maybe something else.

[Peterski]

Belarusians and Ukrainians are the purest Balto-Slavs almost without any foreign traces.

Ukrainians have a lot of South European admixtures.

Not just these living along the Carpathians, it is more widespread in Ukraine.

Of course Southern Poles also have these admixtures.

[Peterski]

The explanation is that back in the Slavic homeland, some Slavic tribes bordered the Balts, and had recent admixture from them, and these are their descendants who went West and south. But they were the minority among Slavs.

But these Belarusian-like samples are not the minority among Early Medieval West Slavs. I already counted 12 such samples. That's a lot. How many Early Medieval West Slavic samples do we have in total? Do not count for example VK samples from Gotland because many of them could be Balts. Count only samples that were undoubtedly Slavs.

For me the explanation is that genetically Belarusian-like Medieval West Slavs were those who were still unmixed, while other Medieval West Slavs were those who were already mixed with Celto-Germanic and other populations.

Today such Belarusian-like individuals no longer exist among West Slavs (or are very rare) because foreign admixtures have already spread quite evenly throughout the population, and also because of ongoing mixing during the Late Middle Ages onwards, until the 20th century.

[Ion Basescul]

Today such Belarusian-like individuals no longer exist among West Slavs (or are very rare) because foreign admixtures have already spread quite evenly throughout the population, and also because of ongoing mixing during the Late Middle Ages onwards, until the 20th century.

Maybe rare in Czechs, but surely should be more common in Western Poles, who very recently migrated from around Belarus. Obviously, since then, a lot would have dispersed all throughout the country and not just the West.

"At the end of WWII, the Polish borders were redrawn, resulting in large-scale forced migration. We focus on the case of over two million Polish migrants who were forced to move away from Kresy, a region in the eastern borderlands of Poland that was taken over by the USSR following the end of the war. Polish expellees from Kresy were primarily resettled to the newly acquired ‘Western Territories’, which were taken over from Germany (and from which Germans themselves were forcibly expelled). A smaller proportion of former inhabitants of Kresy were also moved to the territories of Central Poland, which were Polish in the inter-war period and remained Polish after WWII"

https://voxeu.org/sites/default/files/image/FromMay2014/becker28janfig1.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_population_transfers_(1944%E2%80%931946)

[Peterski]

btw - if proto-Slavs were identical to Belarusians - then Belarusians are 100% Slavic and 0% Baltic? There was complete population replacement?

If you take all of Belarusian individual samples from the G25 datasheet, and model them as a two-way mix of my "Early_Slavic" and Balts, I'm sure that at least some of them will score Baltic (not all of them will score 100% Early_Slavic in this model).

I would do this myself but I'm on my phone now and away from the computer for the whole weekend.

[Ion Basescul]

Maybe rare in Czechs, but surely should be more common in Western Poles, who very recently migrated from around Belarus. Obviously, since then, a lot would have dispersed all throughout the country and not just the West.

"At the end of WWII, the Polish borders were redrawn, resulting in large-scale forced migration. We focus on the case of over two million Polish migrants who were forced to move away from Kresy, a region in the eastern borderlands of Poland that was taken over by the USSR following the end of the war. Polish expellees from Kresy were primarily resettled to the newly acquired ‘Western Territories’, which were taken over from Germany (and from which Germans themselves were forcibly expelled). A smaller proportion of former inhabitants of Kresy were also moved to the territories of Central Poland, which were Polish in the inter-war period and remained Polish after WWII"

https://voxeu.org/sites/default/files/image/FromMay2014/becker28janfig1.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_population_transfers_(1944%E2%80%931946)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Poland_and_Soviet_Bela rus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Poland_and_Soviet_Lith uania

[Peterski]

Maybe rare in Czechs, but surely should be more common in Western Poles, who very recently migrated from around Belarus. Obviously, since then, a lot would have dispersed all throughout the country and not just the West.

Poles with origin from Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania are no more than 15% of the population of Poland. This figure includes also people with just for example 1/4 or 1/2 ancestry from there, not only 100%.

Most of them came from Ukraine (Belarus was only 2nd in the ranking).

They are not dispersed all throughout the country (except for big cities like Warsaw of course), they mostly stayed where they settled in 1945. There is a comparison of their distribution in 1950 vs. 2012 and it was similar in both sources.

I made a map based on that data:

https://i.redd.it/g0hyjrqpb5h11.png

[Peterski]

By the way there are ethnic Polish (Poles from Lithuania) samples among Lithuanian regional averages in Global25. Especially Lithuanian_PA average includes some ethnic Poles, who have more western-shifted results than expected:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?304836-Slavic-admixture-in-South-Lithuania&p=6296352&viewfull=1#post6296352

https://i.imgur.com/wqWRsuG.png

[Ion Basescul]

Poles with origin from Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania are no more than 15% of the population of Poland. This figure includes people with just for example 1/4 or 1/2 ancestry from there, not only 100%.

Most of them came from Ukraine (Belarus was only 2nd in the ranking).

They are not dispersed all throughout the country (except for big cities like Warsaw of course), they mostly stayed where they settled in 1945. There is a comparison of their distribution in 1950 vs. 2012 and it was similar in both sources.



I also noticed that Poles from Podlaskie are closer to the Belarus average than to other Polish regions or nations. That's true for at least K13; not sure how well that holds with other calculators.

[Peterski]

Pietu Aukštaitija (South Aukštaitija)= Lithuanian_PA average in G25.

This region is strongly Slavic-shifted.

[Peterski]

I also noticed that Poles from Podlaskie are closer to the Belarus average than to other Polish regions or nations. That's true for at least K13; not sure how well that holds with other calculators.

Yes, many, but not all of them, I have seen kits from Łomża County for example who are regular Central Polish-like.

By the way check my thread about Slavic admixture in Lithuania - some of Pietu Aukštaitija (Lithuanian_PA in Global25) kits score even like West-Central Poles.

Apparently some among the ethnic Polish minority in Lithuania are very western-shifted and far from being just "Polonized Balts" or "Polonized Belarusians".

I'm sure that also at least some of the ethnic Poles in Belarus are "western".

[Sandis]

Pietu Aukštaitija (South Aukštaitija)= Lithuanian_PA average in G25.

This region is strongly Slavic-shifted.

Yes, but Lithuanian_VA (Western Aukštaitija) also is close to Early Slavic, not as close as Southern. Western Aukštaitija has low Polish influence.

[Sandis]

I found sample from Viking Age Gotland, whose nearest results are Belarusians:

https://i.ibb.co/KjgNKFt/Gotland3.png (https://ibb.co/ynCh4Wz)

[Sandis]

Viking Age samples from Gotland are different, they form distinct clusters and are Slavic, Germanic or Baltic shifted. These are average distances:

https://i.ibb.co/m0LxN4F/Gotland-VA2.png (https://ibb.co/Vx7KwTp)

[vbnetkhio]

But these Belarusian-like samples are not the minority among Early Medieval West Slavs. I already counted 12 such samples. That's a lot. How many Early Medieval West Slavic samples do we have in total? Do not count for example VK samples from Gotland because many of them could be Balts. Count only samples that were undoubtedly Slavs.

For me the explanation is that genetically Belarusian-like Medieval West Slavs were those who were still unmixed, while other Medieval West Slavs were those who were already mixed with Celto-Germanic and other populations.

Today such Belarusian-like individuals no longer exist among West Slavs (or are very rare) because foreign admixtures have already spread quite evenly throughout the population, and also because of ongoing mixing during the Late Middle Ages onwards, until the 20th century.

they are mostly from just 2 sites, Pohansko and Krakauer Berg. Those could be unrepresentative.


If you take all of Belarusian individual samples from the G25 datasheet, and model them as a two-way mix of my "Early_Slavic" and Balts, I'm sure that at least some of them will score Baltic (not all of them will score 100% Early_Slavic in this model).

I would do this myself but I'm on my phone now and away from the computer for the whole weekend.

it does happen, but it's a forced model since your Early Slav average is in fact a bit more Baltic (and Germanic) than Belarusians.

[Komintasavalta]

I found sample from Viking Age Gotland, whose nearest results are Belarusians:

https://i.ibb.co/KjgNKFt/Gotland3.png (https://ibb.co/ynCh4Wz)

There's also two samples whose nearest modern population is Ukrainian, two Moldovan, and one Russian:


> mas=read.csv("https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1wZr-UOve0KUKo_Qbgeo27m-CQncZWb8y",r=1)
> ais=read.csv("https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1UrhcfNMLW0oMXIbHGUE60v2taCM7PFw1",r=1)
> pick=ais[grepl("Gotland",rownames(ais)),]
> dm=as.matrix(dist(rbind(mas,pick)))[rownames(pick),rownames(mas)]
> mind=apply(dm,1,min)
> minn=apply(dm,1,function(x)names(which.min(x)))
> p=prcomp(pick)$x
> mima=apply(p,2,function(x)round(100*(x-min(x))/(max(x)-min(x))))
> cat(paste(mima[,1],mima[,2],rownames(pick),sub("^0","",sprintf("%.3f",mind)),minn)[order(p[,1])],sep="\n")
0 65 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK435 .069 French_Brittany
5 48 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK57 .032 French_Pas-de-Calais
8 42 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK477 .034 Belgian
8 67 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK63 .034 Welsh
10 57 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK450 .030 English_Cornwall
10 31 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK431 .032 Swiss_German
15 75 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK232 .036 Scottish
15 65 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK429 .023 Welsh
18 100 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK455 .044 Icelandic
19 60 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK468 .021 Dutch
21 77 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK456 .024 Irish
22 81 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK48 .032 Norwegian
24 77 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK58 .020 Danish
25 71 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK460 .028 Norwegian
27 78 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK479 .020 Danish
28 84 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK428 .032 Danish
29 81 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK469 .029 Icelandic
35 67 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK433 .030 Swedish
36 73 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK430 .031 Swedish
36 0 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK476 .033 Moldovan
39 84 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK50 .025 Swedish
49 64 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK64 .035 Polish
50 53 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK473 .021 Polish
52 25 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK454 .031 Moldovan_o
52 40 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK53 .027 Ukrainian_Sumy
61 33 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK453 .042 Ukrainian_Sumy
61 43 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK457 .032 Russian_Tver
65 40 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK474 .030 Lithuanian_PA
67 70 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK51 .031 Estonian
69 59 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK440 .046 Belarusian
70 70 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA_o:VK56 .023 Vepsian
71 70 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK60 .030 Lithuanian_SZ
72 52 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK438 .032 Lithuanian_PA
75 67 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK461 .033 Estonian
76 67 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK452 .026 Estonian
77 77 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK462 .054 Lithuanian_PZ
79 61 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK471 .030 Lithuanian_RA
79 61 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK464 .043 Lithuanian_VZ
81 76 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK472 .039 Lithuanian_PZ
82 60 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK475 .024 Lithuanian_SZ
83 56 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK463 .037 Lithuanian_RA
86 31 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK459 .042 Lithuanian_RA
89 59 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK458 .028 Latvian
91 77 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK478 .028 Lithuanian_PZ
99 90 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK439 .042 Latvian
100 68 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK432 .036 Latvian
100 74 VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK434 .040 Lithuanian_PZ

Above the first two columns show a min-max-scaled position of the samples on PC1 and and PC2. The samples are sorted by their position on PC1.

[Peterski]

they are mostly from just 2 sites, Pohansko and Krakauer Berg. Those could be unrepresentative.

What about Szolad (Av2), some of VK samples - including Cedynia and Sandomierz - as well as early Czech Slav RISE568 ???

That's a lot of sites! Not just KRA and POH.

[Insuperable]

What if it is considered boring?
What if it isn't considerer boring?

[Dušan]

I found sample from Viking Age Gotland, whose nearest results are Belarusians:

https://i.ibb.co/KjgNKFt/Gotland3.png (https://ibb.co/ynCh4Wz)


Viking Age samples from Gotland are different, they form distinct clusters and are Slavic, Germanic or Baltic shifted. These are average distances:

https://i.ibb.co/m0LxN4F/Gotland-VA2.png (https://ibb.co/Vx7KwTp)


How did those Slavs end up in Gotland?
Are they were captured by Vikings or joined them?

[Sandis]

How did those Slavs end up in Gotland?
Are they were captured by Vikings or joined them?

I haven't heard of massive Slavic or Baltic migration to Gotland. Maybe early Goths were already similar to Slavs.
Lemminkäinen wrote earlier that Gotland was genetically mostly Balto-Slavic.
One study of blood markers showed that modern Gotlanders have 3 times lager Eastern Baltic component than average Swedes, but it includes later migrations. Medieval Gotlanders should be more Balto-Slavic shifted than modern Gotlanders.

The origin of Goths is not clear. From Wikipedia:
"Similarities between the name of the Goths, some Swedish place names and the names of the Gutes and Geats have been cited as evidence that the Goths originated in Gotland or Götaland.The Goths, Geats and Gutes may all have descended from an early community of seafarers active on both sides of the Baltic. Similarities and dissimilarities between the Gothic language and Scandinavian languages (particularly Gutnish) have been cited as evidence both for and against a Scandinavian origin".

[Dušan]

I haven't heard of massive Slavic or Baltic migration to Gotland. Maybe early Goths were already similar to Slavs.
Lemminkäinen wrote earlier that Gotland was genetically mostly Balto-Slavic.
One study of blood markers showed that modern Gotlanders have 3 times lager Eastern Baltic component than average Swedes, but it includes later migrations. Medieval Gotlanders should be more Balto-Slavic shifted than modern Gotlanders.

The origin of Goths is not clear. From Wikipedia:
"Similarities between the name of the Goths, some Swedish place names and the names of the Gutes and Geats have been cited as evidence that the Goths originated in Gotland or Götaland.The Goths, Geats and Gutes may all have descended from an early community of seafarers active on both sides of the Baltic. Similarities and dissimilarities between the Gothic language and Scandinavian languages (particularly Gutnish) have been cited as evidence both for and against a Scandinavian origin".

Interesting.

Thats why I ask, since me too never heard about Slavic migration there.

[Varda]

https://i.ibb.co/kgh60bv/1024px-Slavic-tribes-in-the-7th-to-9th-century-2.jpg

[Varda]

https://i.ibb.co/kgh60bv/1024px-Slavic-tribes-in-the-7th-to-9th-century-2.jpg

Serbs and Croatians are only present day South Slavs whose name came from the north in 7th century from northern Slavic regions. Names of most of the other South Slavs: Bosniaks, Montenegrins, Gorani, Torbeshi, Pomaks and Macedonians are recent creations. Bulgarians carry Turkic name. Slovenian name is not recent but it's not from early middle age, their Slavic ancestors in early middle age were known as Carantanians.

[CommonSense]

Krakauer Berg Slavic samples in:

Eurogenes K13:


KRA001,25.96,48.00,13.69,6.89,0,0,2.36,0.65,0.29,0 .90,0.97,0.29,0
KRA002,32.83,40.49,8.72,4.20,8.75,0.08,1.21,0,1.04 ,0.92,0.65,1.10,0
KRA003,37.41,43.66,9.37,1.83,2.01,0.45,0,0,1.08,1. 26,1.87,1.06,0
KRA004,33.97,49.45,10.27,0,0.33,1.90,0.77,0,1.06,0 .49,0.56,0.23,0.96
KRA005,29.61,46.01,11.93,6.25,1.70,0,0,0,0.82,0,2. 08,0,1.60
KRA006,25.65,44.48,12.02,5.98,5.26,1.24,3.24,0,1.0 1,0.52,0.34,0,0.26
KRA007,30.91,51.79,7.03,5.17,0,2.47,0.41,0,0,0.58, 0.86,0.77,0
KRA008,27.67,45.53,14.54,3.66,4.95,0.65,0,0.34,0,2 .39,0,0.27,0
KRA009,24.47,43.30,13.21,4.64,4.90,2.77,1.96,0,0,1 .29,2.18,1.04,0.24
KRA010,28.23,45.68,9.85,4.59,4.85,0.16,2.48,0.99,0 .16,1.23,0.51,0,1.28
KRA011,29.81,50.81,9.38,1.82,1.42,1.44,1.66,0,0,1. 05,1.22,1.39,0

Eurogenes K15:


KRA001,22.24,12.81,31.32,18.94,8.00,3.85,0,0,1.39, 0,0,0.62,0.82,0,0
KRA002,30.31,11.62,25.10,16.20,6.19,2.69,4.88,0,0. 69,0,0,0.62,0.49,1.21,0
KRA003,30.30,15.79,24.42,20.97,5.67,0,0,0,0,0,0,0. 82,1.33,0.70,0
KRA004,22.64,17.84,34.15,18.21,5.27,0,0,0.44,0,0,0 ,0.20,0.42,0,0.82
KRA005,19.73,18.33,33.09,16.42,5.93,3.83,0,0,0,0,0 ,0,1.77,0,0.90
KRA006,17.77,17.24,29.71,17.82,7.74,5.03,0.72,0.62 ,2.76,0,0,0.46,0.14,0,0
KRA007,19.35,20.60,33.36,21.13,1.85,2.46,0,0.80,0, 0,0,0,0.29,0.16,0
KRA008,21.36,17.04,29.16,17.91,9.25,3.19,0.11,0.63 ,0,0,0,1.21,0,0.14,0
KRA009,20.88,11.44,31.71,15.00,7.71,3.48,1.80,3.43 ,1.05,0,0,0.73,1.89,0.59,0.29
KRA010,21.47,14.09,30.57,18.77,5.76,3.25,1.70,0,2. 23,0.12,0,0.61,0.22,0,1.20
KRA011,21.46,18.11,32.37,20.47,4.33,0.09,0,0.64,0. 16,0,0,0.07,1.01,1.29,0

Dodecad K12b:


KRA001,5.59,0,0,0.51,23.80,57.22,0.58,0,0,0.50,9.6 3,2.17
KRA002,5.29,1.34,1.19,0,23.76,53.28,0.30,0,0.92,0, 12.48,1.43
KRA003,4.17,1.60,0.24,0.32,27.21,57.99,0,0.42,0,0, 7.10,0.94
KRA004,2.55,1.28,0,0.82,25.17,60.69,0,0,1.43,0,5.9 3,2.13
KRA005,5.26,0.33,0,0.18,24.37,55.82,0,0,0,0,11.75, 2.29
KRA006,0.03,0,0,0.27,23.44,53.22,2.62,1.04,2.93,0, 16.45,0
KRA007,4.62,0,0,0,21.97,61.97,0.74,0,2.50,0,7.62,0 .59
KRA008,4.59,0,0,0,25.46,57.14,0,0.21,1.09,0.76,9.2 2,1.52
KRA009,1.37,0,2.99,0,21.22,54.62,1.97,0.44,0,2.27, 14.25,0.87
KRA010,1.47,0.70,0,0,22.23,56.69,2.62,0.46,0.41,1. 12,12.66,1.65
KRA011,1.81,0,0.75,1.45,23.96,61.60,1.69,1.17,0.71 ,0,5.79,1.07

By the way, these samples span over a period of several centuries.

Probably the ones which are more Belarusian-like, are the oldest?

002, 003 and 004 appear to have some Germanic admix. And overall they seem to be closest to Poles, not to Belarusians or Ukrainians

[Abriekman]

Ukrainians have a lot of South European admixtures.

Not just these living along the Carpathians, it is more widespread in Ukraine.

Of course Southern Poles also have these admixtures.

It is false, Ukrainians do not have any Southern admixture lol, only those from Zakarpattia have, because they have Hungarian, Romanian ancestors.

[Abriekman]

Ukrainians have a lot of South European admixtures.

Not just these living along the Carpathians, it is more widespread in Ukraine.

Of course Southern Poles also have these admixtures.

Regional Ukrainians on G25 without Ukrainian reference

Target: Ukrainian_Chernihiv
Distance: 0.5832% / 0.00583200 | R4P
37.0 Russian_Smolensk
31.4 Russian_Kursk
20.0 Russian_Belgorod
11.6 Sorb_Niederlausitz


Target: Ukrainian_Dnipro
Distance: 0.5960% / 0.00595978 | R4P
52.2 Russian_Orel
23.4 Cossack_Ukrainian
12.2 Cossack_Kuban
12.2 Sorb_Niederlausitz

Target: Ukrainian_Rivne
Distance: 0.5168% / 0.00516756 | R4P
38.6 Russian_Smolensk
26.0 Russian_Kursk
24.0 Sorb_Niederlausitz
11.4 Cossack_Kuban

Target: Ukrainian_Sumy
Distance: 0.6395% / 0.00639499 | R4P
65.4 Russian_Smolensk
29.4 Russian_Orel
3.6 Sardinian
1.6 Roma_Bilbao

Target: Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
Distance: 0.8615% / 0.00861472 | R6P
25.4 Russian_Belgorod
23.8 Russian_Smolensk
21.6 Polish
11.8 Russian_Ryazan
10.4 Sorb_Niederlausitz
7.0 Russian_Pskov


Where are those South European admixtures, because I don't see anything

[Peterski]

It is false, Ukrainians do not have any Southern admixture lol, only those from Zakarpattia have, because they have Hungarian, Romanian ancestors.

No it is not false. By South European admixture I also mean extra EEF compared to Belarusians. Belarusians can be modelled as "Balts + about 10% EEF/Sardinian". Ukrainians have a higher proportion.

Those from Zakarpattia have a lot of such admix considering how close they are to Croats, Hungarians, etc.

[Abriekman]

No it is not false. By South European admixture I also mean extra EEF compared to Belarusians. Belarusians can be modelled as "Balts + about 10% EEF/Sardinian". Ukrainians have a higher proportion.

Those from Zakarpattia have a lot of such admix considering how close they are to Croats, Hungarians, etc.

It is, do not take Belarusians as pure Slavs, when they have high Baltic percentage. Of course Ukrainians will have higher proportion, because they have very little Baltic and are purest Slavs. Ukrainian samples from Zhytomyr, Rivne, Dnipro, Sumy and Chernihiv do not have any southern admixture compared to western Russians, so this is wrong.

[Art23]

It is, do not take Belarusians as pure Slavs, when they have high Baltic percentage. Of course Ukrainians will have higher proportion, because they have very little Baltic and are purest Slavs. Ukrainian samples from Zhytomyr, Rivne, Dnipro, Sumy and Chernihiv do not have any southern admixture compared to western Russians, so this is wrong.

Nyet. Even the most northeastern Ukrainians from Sumy have a noticeable southern admixture compared to Russians which can be seen in Eurogenes K36.

[Roy]

It is simply a by-product of having more South Slavic or Balkanic forum members.

[MandM]

It is false, Ukrainians do not have any Southern admixture lol, only those from Zakarpattia have, because they have Hungarian, Romanian ancestors.

Dont know how much but there was a Serbian migration to the ukraine, there are even city names that are the same as in Serbia, so there is that admixture, dont know how much

[Roy]

I'm not sure about that. I think the extent to which other Slavs mixed with neighbouring people is of a similar magnitude. But those foreign cultures who lived nearby were more similar genetically. But South Slavs happened to migrate from the North, so obviously the genetic contrast is more visible when they are paired with Thracians/Illyrians/etc.

Btw. I remember noticing an intriguing phenomenon in some anthro datasheet on pigmentation of Slovenians. They apparently very rarely have light-mixed eyes, it is predominantly either dark eyes or light eyes roughly half to half of each. Does it suggest that their core Slavic ancestry was very light eyed (think Belarusian-like) that directly mixed with some very dark eyed one? This is my suspicion.

[Abriekman]

Nyet. Even the most northeastern Ukrainians from Sumy have a noticeable southern admixture compared to Russians which can be seen in Eurogenes K36.

Dont know how much but there was a Serbian migration to the ukraine, there are even city names that are the same as in Serbia, so there is that admixture, dont know how much

Da, look at post #73

[Peterski]

Where are those South European admixtures, because I don't see anything

Try using this tool:

Source - all modern averages
Target - Belarusians, Ukrainians
Mode - Difference (AC - BC)

https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/

Distance difference: (AC-BC) ↑
A: Ukrainian
B: Belarusian
C:↴
-0.01717226 Bosnian
-0.01715827 Montenegrin
-0.01710015 Rumelia_East
-0.01698721 Greek_Izmir
-0.01693878 Romanian
-0.01687269 Greek_Central_Macedonia
-0.01686794 Greek_Laconia
-0.01683842 Moldovan
-0.01681860 Italian_Umbria
-0.01677584 Greek_Kos
-0.01676267 Swiss_Italian
-0.01674388 Serbian
-0.01672888 Bulgarian
-0.01667860 Greek_Peloponnese
-0.01665194 Italian_Basilicata
-0.01664728 Italian_Molise
-0.01659288 Albanian
-0.01655391 Italian_Tuscany
-0.01655256 Italian_Abruzzo
-0.01652641 Italian_Campania
-0.01652611 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
-0.01652485 Macedonian
-0.01651409 Greek_Central_Anatolia
-0.01651233 Turkish_Rumeli
-0.01650393 Croatian

^^^
This clearly shows that Ukrainians have Eastern Mediterranean (not Sardinian-like, but East Med!) admixtures which are not present among Belarusians.

[Ion Basescul]

Btw. I remember noticing an intriguing phenomenon in some anthro datasheet on pigmentation of Slovenians. They apparently very rarely have light-mixed eyes, it is predominantly either dark eyes or light eyes roughly half to half of each. Does it suggest that their core Slavic ancestry was very light eyed (think Belarusian-like) that directly mixed with some very dark eyed one? This is my suspicion.

I don't know. I followed well the protests across Belarus when they happened, and I can't say that they were overwhelmingly light eyed. It was more like 50/50.

[Abriekman]

Try using this tool:

Source - all modern averages
Target - Belarusians, Ukrainians
Mode - Difference (AC - BC)

https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/

Distance difference: (AC-BC) ↑
A: Ukrainian
B: Belarusian
C:↴
-0.01717226 Bosnian
-0.01715827 Montenegrin
-0.01710015 Rumelia_East
-0.01698721 Greek_Izmir
-0.01693878 Romanian
-0.01687269 Greek_Central_Macedonia
-0.01686794 Greek_Laconia
-0.01683842 Moldovan
-0.01681860 Italian_Umbria
-0.01677584 Greek_Kos
-0.01676267 Swiss_Italian
-0.01674388 Serbian
-0.01672888 Bulgarian
-0.01667860 Greek_Peloponnese
-0.01665194 Italian_Basilicata
-0.01664728 Italian_Molise
-0.01659288 Albanian
-0.01655391 Italian_Tuscany
-0.01655256 Italian_Abruzzo
-0.01652641 Italian_Campania
-0.01652611 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
-0.01652485 Macedonian
-0.01651409 Greek_Central_Anatolia
-0.01651233 Turkish_Rumeli
-0.01650393 Croatian

^^^
This clearly shows that Ukrainians have Eastern Mediterranean (not Sardinian-like, but East Med!) admixtures which are not present among Belarusians.

No, it is effect of that Belarusians have Baltic, obviously pure Slavs without Baltic will be more southern towards Mediterrenean populations, but that doesn't mean they have this admixture based on G25 results, which I showed in previous posts.

[Peterski]

No, it is effect of that Belarusians have Baltic

But Belarusians do NOT have much of Baltic admixture, we are just talking about pieces of evidence which indicate it.

The fact that many of Medieval West Slavs from areas as far west as Krakauer Berg (in modern day Sachsen-Anhalt) is strong evidence that Belarusians do not have much of Baltic admixture, and that simply Early Slavs were very Belarusian-like.

You cannot explain Belarusian-like results of Krakauer Berg population by claiming tbat there was a Medieval migration of Balts to Sachsen-Anhalt, come on... :cool:

[Abriekman]

But Belarusians do NOT have much of Baltic admixture, we are just talking about pieces of evidence which indicate it.

The fact that many of Medieval West Slavs from areas as far west as Krakauer Berg (in modern day Sachsen-Anhalt) is strong evidence that Belarusians do not have much of Baltic admixture, and that simply Early Slavs were very Belarusian-like.

You cannot explain Belarusian-like results of Krakauer Berg population by claiming tbat there was a Medieval migration of Balts to Sachsen-Anhalt, come on... :cool:

Then western Russians also have Med or West Asian admixture, when we compare them to Belarusians lol???


Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: Russian_Voronez
B: Belarusian
C: ↴
-0.01070451 Turkish_Rumeli
-0.01048498 Turkish_Aydin
-0.01043668 Abazin
-0.01041341 Turkish_Deliorman
-0.01033735 Turkish_Southwest
-0.01029793 Turkish_North
-0.01029616 Turkish_Central
-0.01029230 Turkish_Northwest
-0.01020705 Circassian
-0.01017868 Cherkes
-0.01016389 Balkar
-0.01015103 Turkish_South
-0.01014844 Adygei
-0.01014617 Turkish_Kayseri
-0.01010163 Armenian_Hemsheni
-0.01006455 Greek_Central_Anatolia
-0.01005795 Turkish_Balikesir
-0.01005645 Georgian_Laz
-0.01005637 Abkhasian
-0.01004956 Karachay
-0.01003394 Kumyk
-0.01001701 Greek_Trabzon
-0.01001242 Kabardin
-0.00999410 Ahiska
-0.00997862 Turkish_Adana



Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
A: Belarusian
B: Russian_Smolensk
C: ↴
0.00619619 Georgian_Imer
0.00612759 Abkhasian
0.00606883 Georgian_Laz
0.00600074 Ossetian
0.00598134 Ahiska
0.00598013 Greek_Trabzon
0.00592764 Adygei
0.00582559 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.00580011 North_Ossetian
0.00579337 Turkish_Trabzon
0.00565404 Circassian
0.00565049 Cherkes
0.00563002 Karachay
0.00562106 Greek_Cappadocia
0.00560989 Abazin
0.00559867 Kabardin
0.00558907 Ingushian
0.00556926 Armenian
0.00554486 Balkar
0.00550725 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.00543978 Udi
0.00541638 Chechen
0.00540667 Cypriot
0.00535124 Karaite_Egypt
0.00534836 Georgian_Jew



Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↑
A: Russian_Kursk
B: Belarusian
C: ↴
-0.01293642 Iranian_Turkmen_Golestan
-0.01282813 Tajik_Hisor
-0.01280821 Turkmen
-0.01272116 Turkmen_Uzbekistan
-0.01268375 Tatar_Kazan
-0.01252936 Tajik_Kulob
-0.01243380 Turkish_Southwest
-0.01241775 Tajik_Ayni
-0.01232801 Nordva_Moksha
-0.01227201 Turkish_South
-0.01221029 Tatar_Crimean_steppe
-0.01218940 Turkish_Northwest
-0.01216079 Tajik_Shugnan
-0.01204802 Tatar_Mishar
-0.01204495 Tajik_Rushan
-0.01203141 Abazin
-0.01202007 Besermyan
-0.01199590 Turkish_Aydin
-0.01193644 Mordva_Erzya
-0.01193072 Tajik_Yagnobi
-0.01191601 Udmurt
-0.01185022 Uzbek
-0.01183092 Turkish_Balikesir
-0.01179652 Russian_Ryazan
-0.01179407 Kumyk

[Peterski]

obviously pure Slavs without Baltic will be more southern towards Mediterrenean populations

Apparently not, because we have DNA samples of pure Medieval Slavs without Baltic, and a lot of them were Belarusian-like, even in places as far west as Sachsen-Anhalt, where no Balts ever migrated... Those were Slavs without Baltic admixture, living in what is now Sachsen-Anhalt, and they were Belarusian-like.

[Sandis]

I don't know. I followed well the protests across Belarus when they happened, and I can't say that they were overwhelmingly light eyed. It was more like 50/50.

Soviet studies found that Belarusians from Smarhonʹ in Grodno region had lighter eyes than almost all studied Lithuanian, Latvian, Estonian places, but Drysa in Vitebsk region had average values by Baltic measures. These places are close to the border.
Green and mixed eyes should be more common among central and southern Belarusians.

[Voskos]

I mean SOuth Slavs are somewhat more interesting due to carrying the legacy of two great peoples: Slavs and Paleobalkanites.

[Peterski]

I mean SOuth Slavs are somewhat more interesting due to carrying the legacy of two great peoples: Slavs and Paleobalkanites.

Well there are some ancient written sources which at least mention the names of some tribes and peoples which inhabited ancient Poland, I'm curious if modern Poles have any ancestry from these peoples:

https://i.imgur.com/86sT5R1.png

[Voskos]

Well there are some ancient written sources which at least mention the names of some tribes and peoples which inhabited ancient Poland, I'm curious if modern Poles have any ancestry from these peoples:

https://i.imgur.com/86sT5R1.png

surely they do. the question is if there's any cultural influence as well

[Peterski]

Also, if we go by pre-WW2 Polish borders, then it is possible that the Proto-Slavic homeland was located somewhere within the pre-WW2 Poland. Stalin took away ancestral Slavic lands from us... ;(

[Dušan]

Poles with origin from Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania are no more than 15% of the population of Poland. This figure includes also people with just for example 1/4 or 1/2 ancestry from there, not only 100%.

Most of them came from Ukraine (Belarus was only 2nd in the ranking).

They are not dispersed all throughout the country (except for big cities like Warsaw of course), they mostly stayed where they settled in 1945. There is a comparison of their distribution in 1950 vs. 2012 and it was similar in both sources.

I made a map based on that data:

https://i.redd.it/g0hyjrqpb5h11.png

If it is true, this is really incredible and interesting fact.


The city of Vilnius was considered a historical capital of Lithuania; however, in the early 20th century its population was around 40% Polish, 30% Jewish and 20% Russian and Belarusian, with only about 2–3% self-declared Lithuanians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Poland_and_Soviet_Lith uania

[Peterski]

surely they do. the question is if there's any cultural influence as well

I haven't studied this subject enough to answer.

And South Slavs have some cultural influences from the Paleo-Balkan peoples?

[Voskos]

I haven't studied this subject enough to answer.

And South Slavs have some cultural influences from the Paleo-Balkan peoples?

I suppose they do but the said culture was transmitted to them indirectly through culturally "Romanized" paleobalkanites so it's not that easy to distinguish it.

[Peterski]

I suppose they do but the said culture was transmitted to them indirectly through culturally "Romanized" paleobalkanites so it's not that easy to distinguish it.

I think stronger Non-Slavic cultural influences on Polish culture are more recent, and come from the numerous minorities that inhabited the country until the World Wars.

For example around the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries (before WW1) almost every county in Poland had at least 10% (and often much more) share of ethnically Non-Polish inhabitants.

Below is a map of all counties which had less than 10% of minorities (in other words, all counties where ethnic Poles were between 90%-100% of the population) during the 1800s:

https://i.imgur.com/WOPhZzR.png

https://i.imgur.com/WOPhZzR.png

Of course the two largest ethnically foreign groups were Germans and Jews, followed by East Slavs in eastern parts of the country (including pre-WW2 Former East Poland, but also easternmost fringes of Poland within current borders, with East Slavic groups such as the Lemkos, etc.).

[Varda]

Dont know how much but there was a Serbian migration to the ukraine, there are even city names that are the same as in Serbia, so there is that admixture, dont know how much

Yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Serbia_(historical_province)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavo-Serbia

Except News Serbia and Slavo-Serbia 303 Serbian families from northern Dalmatia in 1771. settled in present day Ukrainian part of Galicia https://www.poreklo.rs/2013/02/14/seobe-dalmatinskih-srba-drugi-deo/
303 families in 18th century was roughly 3000 people. Because average nimber of persons by family in 3 Serbian northern Dalmatian villages Žegar, Mokro Polje and Ervenik on Venetian cadastre in 1709. was 9.8

[Peterski]

^^^
I cut off Former Eastern Poland in the map above, but IIRC there was not a single county where Poles were 90%-100% and minorities less than 10% in that whole territory. There were many counties there where Poles were the majority or the most numerous group (plurality), but never over 90%. Remember that Former Eastern Poland had also a lot of Jews apart from Ukrainians, Belarusians, Lithuanians, etc.

BTW there was also a Polish area in Latvia:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?267735-The-Forgotten-Minority-Latvia-s-Poles

[Sandis]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e6/Sarmatia_Antiqua.jpg

[Abriekman]

Apparently not, because we have DNA samples of pure Medieval Slavs without Baltic, and a lot of them were Belarusian-like, even in places as far west as Sachsen-Anhalt, where no Balts ever migrated... Those were Slavs without Baltic admixture, living in what is now Sachsen-Anhalt, and they were Belarusian-like.

Some of that samples, that you posted are Belarusian-like, but not all.

Take a look, more than half of the samples are closer to Ukrainians

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011
0.02177898 Belarusian
0.02751423 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.02892573 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.02921843 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.02939481 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.03376872 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.05266615 German_East
0.05617232 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.07235412 German

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010
0.02191576 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.02447118 Belarusian
0.02472806 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.02604069 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.02711662 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.02844343 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.03994251 German_East
0.04297736 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.05964331 German

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA008
0.03124030 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.03356525 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.03753285 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.03784992 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.04016991 Belarusian
0.04027816 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.04732274 German_East
0.04797852 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.05833805 German

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA007
0.03248723 Belarusian
0.03644456 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.03695378 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.03715044 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.03912562 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.04177870 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.06083328 German_East
0.06349727 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.07827361 German

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA006
0.02050375 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.02395979 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.02532663 Belarusian
0.02533650 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.02670523 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.02892653 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.04010425 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.04411699 German_East
0.06394687 German

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA005
0.03563733 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.03683808 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.03797761 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.03869555 Belarusian
0.03979222 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.04046000 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.04221243 German_East
0.05183807 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.05845469 German

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004
0.03141556 Belarusian
0.03253947 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.03497938 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.03577175 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.03835120 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.03920234 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.05913037 German_East
0.06144075 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.07449901 German

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA003
0.04193173 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.04414972 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.04425709 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.04659562 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.04856610 Belarusian
0.05190568 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.06147728 German_East
0.06378403 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.06899980 German

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA002
0.02546089 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.02658528 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.02709633 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.02926608 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.03030811 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.03415729 Belarusian
0.03804053 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.03869115 German_East
0.05149435 German

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA001
0.02771161 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.03293984 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.03353033 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.03385388 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.03460398 Belarusian
0.03769994 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.05361483 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.05559845 German_East
0.06843613 German

[Dušan]

I mean, Lithuanians were a fucking 3% in Vilnius, were completly on Hitler nazi side in WW2, steal that city from Poles with help of communists, and then cry to this day how they were opressed in USSR.

What a hypocrites. :picard1:

[Peterski]

I mean, Lithuanians were a fucking 3% in Vilnius, were completly on Hitler nazi side in WW2, steal that city from Poles with help of communists, and then cry to this day how they were opressed in USSR.

What a hypocrites. :picard1:

Yes they were 3% but it was their historical capital city from the Middle Ages. I guess in the Middle Ages the city was probably Lithuanian-majority, but then throughout the centuries Poles and Jews (and Russians, Belarusians too) became the vast majority, and Lithuanians were reduced to a mere 3%...

But at least they had a historical claim to the city as their Medieval capital.

What about Lviv though?

This city was Polish since 1340 and in the 1900s also overwhelmingly ethnically a Polish-Jewish mix, with only a small share of Ukrainians. I think Lithuanians had a stronger claim to Vilnius than Ukrainians to Lviv.

[Art23]

Vilnius is very lucky to be Lithuanian, not Belarusian now.

[RogueState]

Nothing to do with genetics...

It's not that North Slavic genetics are boring, it's because the Balkans concentrated the highest rate of ethnic nationalism in Europe, so a disproportion of users on Internet/social media/YouTube discussing their national politics, genetics, engaging debates (with crazy history theories) + with more hot tempered people than in the North, it is often heated (insults, violent comments, ...) and therefore interesting and funny for outsiders

[Sandis]

I mean, Lithuanians were a fucking 3% in Vilnius, were completly on Hitler nazi side in WW2, steal that city from Poles with help of communists, and then cry to this day how they were opressed in USSR.

What a hypocrites. :picard1:

They lost much more land in early times, that's why loss of core territory was very painful:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Lithuanian_state_in_13-15th_centuries.png

Vilnius Governorate with Belarusian majority and Lithuanian minority was created by Russian Empire. Lithuanianians lived more in rural areas. We also had some towns with 70 pct Jewish and 2 pct Latvian population or something like this in 1890s, where surroundings were 90 pct Latvian.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Lithuania-1867-1914-EN.svg/1280px-Lithuania-1867-1914-EN.svg.png

[Crn Volk]

I mean SOuth Slavs are somewhat more interesting due to carrying the legacy of two great peoples: Slavs and Paleobalkanites.

Yes

[Peterski]

Vilnius Governorate with Belarusian majority and Lithuanian minority was created by Russian Empire:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Lithuania-1867-1914-EN.svg/1280px-Lithuania-1867-1914-EN.svg.png

Russian censuses overestimated Belarusian population by counting a lot of Belarusian-speaking Catholics and Russian-speaking Catholics as such ethnicities. But those Catholics actually identified as Poles, even if they did not speak Polish.

Check the Polish censuses of 1919, 1921 and 1931 for comparison (although these censuses in turn overestimated Poles by counting many Orthodox people as Polish).

[Dušan]

Yes they were 3% but it was their historical capital city from the Middle Ages. I guess in the Middle Ages the city was probably Lithuanian-majority, but then throughout the centuries Poles and Jews (and Russians, Belarusians too) became the vast majority, and Lithuanians were reduced to a mere 3%...

But at least they had a historical claim to the city as their Medieval capital.

What about Lviv though?

This city was Polish since 1340 and in the 1900s also overwhelmingly ethnically a Polish-Jewish mix, with only a small share of Ukrainians. I think Lithuanians had a stronger claim to Vilnius than Ukrainians to Lviv.

Yeah, I read somewhere that Lviv had Polish majority.

If we go by medieval claim, then capital of Serbian empire in 14th century use to be Skoplje, todays capital of N.Macedonia.
But we dont need anything from N. Macedonia.

Its silly that Lithuania got Vilnius, thanks to Soviets who brutally opressed poor Lithuanians. What an opression!

[Sandis]

Russian censuses overestimated Belarusian population by counting a lot of Belarusian-speaking Catholics and Russian-speaking Catholics as such ethnicities. But those Catholics actually identified as Poles, even if they did not speak Polish.

Check the Polish censuses of 1919, 1921 and 1931 for comparison (although these censuses in turn overestimated Poles by counting many Orthodox people as Polish).

Yes, sometimes all depends on who is counting. Many Belarusians in Latvia were counted as Russians.

[Dušan]

They lost much more land in early times, that's why loss of core territory was very painful:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Lithuanian_state_in_13-15th_centuries.png


You think it was not painful to East Slavs when all that territory of Kievan Russia was conquered by Lithuanians, who took advantage of Mongol raids from east?

[Sandis]

You think it was not painful to East Slavs when all that territory of Kievan Russia was conquered by Lithuanians, who took advantage of Mongol raids from east?

Yes, it could be painful for both, but it's obvious that Lithuanians considers it as central part of country. As i remember, Trakai and Kernave near Vilnius also were capitals in early times. Lithuania expanded also to the West (Samogitia, Suduva) and North (Selonia, Semigalia) in the 13th century, but it's not visible in this map. Center of Lithuanian tribes really was somewhere near Kernave/Vilnius.

[Insuperable]

I mean SOuth Slavs are somewhat more interesting due to carrying the legacy of two great peoples: Slavs and Paleobalkanites.

When Slavs came it was Roman Empire. Who knows who else was there except mixed Balkanites at that point.

[Insuperable]

@Tomenable

Are you having on your mind anthro and genotard forums or peer review articles?

[Sandis]

Also, if we go by pre-WW2 Polish borders, then it is possible that the Proto-Slavic homeland was located somewhere within the pre-WW2 Poland. Stalin took away ancestral Slavic lands from us... ;(

Probably also part of Western Slavic homeland. In some anciant maps Veneds (Western Slavs) are placed to the North of Pripet river, but those maps again are not accurate. In modern maps they are placed to the south of Pripet.

[Dirdepo]

When Slavs came it was Roman Empire. Who knows who else was there except mixed Balkanites at that point.

No, there was already a hybridized independant population living on the eastern shores of Black Sea from Roman Empire or Orthodox proposed "Slavs". This group is Sântana de Mureș-Chernyakhov culture. Choosing to disregard this group is unacademic and I can just broken record about this until understood.

[Insuperable]

No, there was already a hybridized independant population living on the eastern shores of Black Sea from Roman Empire or Orthodox proposed "Slavs". This group is Sântana de Mureș-Chernyakhov culture. Choosing to disregard this group is unacademic and I can just broken record about this until understood.

Dumb monkey, try not to reply to me.

[Dirdepo]

Dumb monkey, try not to reply to me.

This whole website is dumb, I fit in good

[Peterski]

Yes, it could be painful for both, but it's obvious that Lithuanians considers it as central part of country. As i remember, Trakai and Kernave near Vilnius also were capitals in early times. Lithuania expanded also to the West (Samogitia, Suduva) and North (Selonia, Semigalia) in the 13th century, but it's not visible in this map. Center of Lithuanian tribes really was somewhere near Kernave/Vilnius.

Vilnius is far away to the east from the Curzon Line, but Lviv is "next door" from it (and some alternative variants of the Curzon Line included Lviv on the Polish side of the border). This is another reason why the loss of Lviv was more painful to the Polish people than the loss of Vilnius.

Lviv is ca. 60 km from the border.

[Dirdepo]

Tomenable "This is another reason why the loss of Lviv was more painful to the Polish people than the loss of Lviv"

Dumb af ^ read that shit lmao

[Dušan]

When Slavs came it was Roman Empire. Who knows who else was there except mixed Balkanites at that point.

Romans settled some East Mediterranean people.
Thats probably how I get mine 1.13% Red Sea component in K13.

[Sandis]

No, there was already a hybridized independant population living on the eastern shores of Black Sea from Roman Empire or Orthodox proposed "Slavs". This group is Sântana de Mureș-Chernyakhov culture. Choosing to disregard this group is unacademic and I can just broken record about this until understood.

As i read, core of this culture were Dacians, Sarmatians, Goths and other tribes who lived near the Black Sea. When i suggested that Southern Ukrainians have genetic admixture from Goths, Sarmatians, Scythians, our genetic experts said that they didn't left much traces in Ukraine and Southern Ukrainians are almost purely Slavic.

[Dirdepo]

As i read, core of this culture were Dacians, Sarmatians, Goths and other tribes who lived near the Black Sea. When i suggested that Southern Ukrainians have genetic admixture from Goths, Sarmatians, Scythians, our genetic experts said that they didn't left much traces in Ukraine and Southern Ukrainians are almost purely Slavic.

Right, you know that Romanians few centuries back were Catholic. So they will always be associated with Poland Commonwealth and Hungarian Empire whether they like or not, and not former Ottoman colonies or Russian colonies where Orthodoxy has its origins. Also to speak on this you have to understand former borders of states and people that have sometimes shifted between the borders and other events that promoted outside peoples to be assimilated within these borders.

You are correct regarding Sarmatian, Thracian, Gothic summary of Sântana de Mureș-Chernyakhov culture, I just have to make that other point also.

[Peterski]

Tomenable "This is another reason why the loss of Lviv was more painful to the Polish people than the loss of Lviv"

Dumb af ^ read that shit lmao

My mistake, I fixed it.

Lviv ... than ... Vilnius

[Insuperable]

Romans settled some East Mediterranean people.
Thats probably how I get mine 1.13% Red Sea component in K13.

Red Sea was most probably already present without these settlers.

[Varda]

Red Sea was most probably already present without these settlers.

Medieval sample Slavic_Viking_Russian_Gnezdovo_V272 score 3.37 Red Sea, and sample Slavic_Sungir6_Early_Medieval_Russian_I2a 0.53

[Jankec]

Yeah, I read somewhere that Lviv had Polish majority.

If we go by medieval claim, then capital of Serbian empire in 14th century use to be Skoplje, todays capital of N.Macedonia.
But we dont need anything from N. Macedonia.

Its silly that Lithuania got Vilnius, thanks to Soviets who brutally opressed poor Lithuanians. What an opression!

Skopje was part of medieval Serbian empire, but Serbs probably didn't live there, as well as they didn't live in parts of northern Greece and Albania.

[Varda]

Skopje was part of medieval Serbian empire, but Serbs probably didn't live there, as well as they didn't live in parts of northern Greece and Albania.

Skoplje was part of medieval Serbia from 1282. to 1392.

In Macedonia exist several toponyms related with Serbian name like Srbinovo, Srbjani, Srbica, Srpci etc. which means that Serbs were minority there. Because toponyms on some territory related with ethnic name is usually from some ethnicity which is in minority and want to emphasize own specificity and and prevent assimilation. Like Rusko Selo and Češko Selo in Serbian part of Banat. Rusko Selo was founded by Rusyn settlers from Zakarpattia in 18th century and Češko Selo by Czech settlers in 19th century. Both settled in region where they minority and named settlements with own ethnic name.
Interesting in western Macedonian in 18th and 19th century was relatively common male personal name Srbin. Because of that present day Macedonians have surname Srbinovski. Only in Macedonia existed male name Srbin which literally means Serb.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srbinovo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srbjani

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srbica_(Kičevo)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srpci

[Crn Volk]

Skoplje was part of medieval Serbia from 1282. to 1392.

In Macedonia exist several toponyms related with Serbian name like Srbinovo, Srbjani, Srbica, Srpci etc. which means that Serbs were minority there. Because toponyms on some territory related with ethnic name is usually from some ethnicity which is in minority and want to emphasize own specificity and and prevent assimilation. Like Rusko Selo and Češko Selo in Serbian part of Banat. Rusko Selo was founded by Rusyn settlers from Zakarpattia in 18th century and Češko Selo by Czech settlers in 19th century. Both settled in region where they minority and named settlements with own ethnic name.
Interesting in western Macedonian in 18th and 19th century was relatively common male personal name Srbin. Because of that present day Macedonians have surname Srbinovski. Only in Macedonia existed male name Srbin which literally means Serb.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srbinovo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srbjani

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srbica_(Kičevo)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srpci

There was Serb presence in Macedonia much earlier than that, however they did not remain

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unknown_Archon#De_Administrando_Imperio

Those 18th-19th century 'Serbs' were Serbianized locals rather than actual Serbs, as the propaganda war in Ottoman Macedonia was in full swing then and Serbs were quite successful.

There was also Serb colonisation post 1913

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Map_of_Serbian_colonization_in_Vardar_Macedonia_20 _century.jpg/608px-Map_of_Serbian_colonization_in_Vardar_Macedonia_20 _century.jpg

Most of this was however reversed post 1945

[Varda]

There was Serb presence in Macedonia much earlier than that, however they did not remain

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unknown_Archon#De_Administrando_Imperio

Those 18th-19th 'Serbs' were Serbianized locals rather than actual Serbs, as the propaganda war in Ottoman Macedonia was in full swing then and Serbs were quite successful.

There was also Serb colonisation post 1913

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7d/Map_of_Serbian_colonization_in_Vardar_Macedonia_20 _century.jpg/608px-Map_of_Serbian_colonization_in_Vardar_Macedonia_20 _century.jpg

Serbian toponyms are most common in western Mscedonia, but in eastern also exist. For example former name of Brežani in Pirin Macedonia was Srbinovo https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/Брежани

[Vega7]

But these Belarusian-like samples are not the minority among Early Medieval West Slavs. I already counted 12 such samples. That's a lot. How many Early Medieval West Slavic samples do we have in total? Do not count for example VK samples from Gotland because many of them could be Balts. Count only samples that were undoubtedly Slavs.

For me the explanation is that genetically Belarusian-like Medieval West Slavs were those who were still unmixed, while other Medieval West Slavs were those who were already mixed with Celto-Germanic and other populations.

Today such Belarusian-like individuals no longer exist among West Slavs (or are very rare) because foreign admixtures have already spread quite evenly throughout the population, and also because of ongoing mixing during the Late Middle Ages onwards, until the 20th century.

The sample I saw posted was from Germany around 1000 AD. I don't think it's logical that a person from that region, albeit slavic speaking, would be reflective of the slavs of 500 years prior in what was probably Ukraine.

These discussions are always plagued by people with their own agendas. But you would have to find people from around 500-600 AD from a region that the slavs more likely originated in. Slavs likely immediately assimilated neighbouring people as soon as they left their homeland.

[Vega7]

Probably also part of Western Slavic homeland. In some anciant maps Veneds (Western Slavs) are placed to the North of Pripet river, but those maps again are not accurate. In modern maps they are placed to the south of Pripet.

I think this is the least conservative estimation of the original slavic homeland. Basically, the forested regions between the Dniepr, Dniestr, and Pripet rivers and stretching into southeastern Poland.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fa/Origins_300BC.png

Some have it continuing further east and west. Although this I guess would have been a bit later after an initial expansion.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d3/Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg


The most conservative would be something like this:

Purple = Baltic
Left brown (center of image) = Proto-Prague-Korchak. Corresponding to 3rd-4th century Northwestern Ukraine
Right brown = Kiev Culture. Corresponding to 5th century North Central Ukraine as well as bits of Belarus and Russia

This last image is based on I believe older archaeological findings and I am not sure if they just haven't excavated areas further south or why specifically it positions the slavic origins a bit further north than the 1st image and certain other theories.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ef/East_europe_3-4cc.png/1280px-East_europe_3-4cc.png

[Vega7]

As i read, core of this culture were Dacians, Sarmatians, Goths and other tribes who lived near the Black Sea. When i suggested that Southern Ukrainians have genetic admixture from Goths, Sarmatians, Scythians, our genetic experts said that they didn't left much traces in Ukraine and Southern Ukrainians are almost purely Slavic.

There is nothing to suggest that the slavs were originally some homogeneous group. It is possible that, for example, sarmatians made up part of the original slavic population. The Slavic word for god (bog) is even from Scythian.

[Sandis]

These discussions are always plagued by people with their own agendas.

Yeah, sometimes agendas makes a bit of noise here.
1000 AD really is a bit late, this is after a lot of mixing took place.

[CommonSense]

There is nothing to suggest that the slavs were originally some homogeneous group. It is possible that, for example, sarmatians made up part of the original slavic population. The Slavic word for god (bog) is even from Scythian.

Wrong. Autosomal and Y-DNA tests point to the contrary. Since you mentioned Sarmatians, you should know that R1a-Z93 is very rare among Slavs. The European steppe people such as the Sarmatians got assimilated by invading Turkic tribes, who were culturally closer to them than Slavs were.

[tipirneni]

Wrong. Autosomal and Y-DNA tests point to the contrary. Since you mentioned Sarmatians, you should know that R1a-Z93 is very rare among Slavs. The European steppe people such as the Sarmatians got assimilated by invading Turkic tribes, who were culturally closer to them than Slavs were.

Sarmatians and their mixed groups like Alans have presence deep in the Celtic territories in France, Ireland and Wales. Once upon a time there was a cline extending from India-Iranic part to Northern parts of Europe. Those who left behind probably got assimilated in Turkic Khanetes and Ottoman and Seljugs

We are seated at a round table, a standard feature in Ossetian households and a symbol of friendship that has its links with Camelot and King Arthur, whose story of the sword Excalibur was recently traced back to an Ossetian legend. According to Scott Littleton and Linda A. Malcor, the legend was brought to England by the Alani, who were also one of the many Caucasian people to revere the pre-Christian St George as the god of the mountains and patron of all men.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/the-caucasus-connection-1.346636

[Sandis]

I established ancient Sarmatian cluster, calculated average coordinates and compared to modern populations.
Some Tajik subgroups are the closest, then comes Volga Tatars, Komi, Besermyans. Northern Russians are closer than Southern Russians, and Ukrainians are a bit closer than Southern Russians.
I need also Scythian, Gothic and other clusters.
And i will look for other methods to compare Sarmatians, because higher similarity with Northern populations is partly due to common ANE and Steppe ancestry.

[Hektor12]

The European steppe people such as the Sarmatians got assimilated by invading Turkic tribes, who were culturally closer to them than Slavs were.Why do you always think one-sided? Maybe its the other way around? Huns conquered Hungary with Turkic language and culture but now Hungary appears with an Ugric language and Slavo-Germanic culture.

I expect at least a curiosity about dominant hoplogroups in Turkic peoples. It shows low amount of east eurasian y-dna in every age of Turkic peoples. And you can find western y-dna like R1 and J2 everywhere, even in northern China.

Maybe Sarmatians assimilated Turks who knows??

[Vessna]

Distance to: Vessna_scaled
0.03186056 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004
0.03215212 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA006
0.03231717 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA002
0.03263850 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011
0.03402202 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010
0.03535573 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA001
0.04048435 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA007
0.04097618 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA008
0.04321948 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA005
0.04572371 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA003

[Beowulf]

Target: Beowulf_Scaled
Distance: 0.0209% / 0.02094482
77.8 Iberian
22.2 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA

[Vessna]

I found sample from Viking Age Gotland, whose nearest results are Belarusians:

https://i.ibb.co/KjgNKFt/Gotland3.png (https://ibb.co/ynCh4Wz)

That’s correct. Gotland Slavic Vikings are my closest Viking age matches.

[rothaer]

Distance to: Vessna_scaled
0.03186056 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004
0.03215212 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA006
0.03231717 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA002
0.03263850 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011
0.03402202 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010
0.03535573 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA001
0.04048435 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA007
0.04097618 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA008
0.04321948 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA005
0.04572371 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA003

Maybe also check the distances to these two assumed early Slavs from Pohansko, Moravia, as they are somewhat Baltic shifted:

Moravia_POH13,0.127482,0.132019,0.083721,0.078489, 0.050471,0.026495,0.00517,0.018922,0.004295,-0.028429,-0.004384,-0.006744,0.017988,0.043076,-0.008143,-0.011668,0.005346,0.000507,0.004022,0.012256,-0.012228,-0.008903,0.01368,-0.013496,-0.002395
Moravia_POH28,0.141141,0.136081,0.087492,0.081719, 0.047086,0.027052,0.019976,0.023999,0.010635,-0.01385,-0.001299,-0.014537,0.027502,0.03647,-0.015065,-0.007425,-0.014473,-0.005954,-0.005531,0,-0.007237,-0.004204,0.000616,-0.00964,-0.002275

[Vessna]

Maybe also check the distances to these two assumed early Slavs from Pohansko, Moravia, as they are somewhat Baltic shifted:

Moravia_POH13,0.127482,0.132019,0.083721,0.078489, 0.050471,0.026495,0.00517,0.018922,0.004295,-0.028429,-0.004384,-0.006744,0.017988,0.043076,-0.008143,-0.011668,0.005346,0.000507,0.004022,0.012256,-0.012228,-0.008903,0.01368,-0.013496,-0.002395
Moravia_POH28,0.141141,0.136081,0.087492,0.081719, 0.047086,0.027052,0.019976,0.023999,0.010635,-0.01385,-0.001299,-0.014537,0.027502,0.03647,-0.015065,-0.007425,-0.014473,-0.005954,-0.005531,0,-0.007237,-0.004204,0.000616,-0.00964,-0.002275

Distance to:Vessna_scaled
0.03708307 Moravia_POH13
0.04800887Moravia_POH28

[rothaer]

Distance to:Vessna_scaled
0.03708307 Moravia_POH13
0.04800887Moravia_POH28

Thanks. Okay, somewhat worse. You would have tolerated one more Lithuanian grandparent. :)

[Nurzat]

I think the presence of at least some genetically Belarusian-like individuals among the Medieval West Slavs from what is now Sachsen-Anhalt (Krakauer Berg) is a strong piece of evidence that the Proto-Slavs or Early Slavs had to be similar to modern Belarusians, not to modern Ukrainians:


DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA001,0.129758,0.125926,0.07 5424,0.072029,0.046778,0.026774,0.011986,0.010384,-0.001636,-0.021322,-0.003085,-0.006294,0.008028,0.021194,-0.013843,0.013789,0.019036,-0.005701,0.00352,0.005378,0.004991,-0.008408,0.000986,-0.006145,0.001796
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA002,0.126344,0.129988,0.06 7127,0.059109,0.03693,0.019243,0.007755,0.010615,0 .001227,-0.023508,-0.001949,-0.008842,0.012339,0.014313,0.000136,0.009149,0.007 823,-0.007728,0.002263,0.006128,-0.003369,-0.005935,0.00419,-0.002048,-0.008502
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA003,0.127482,0.121864,0.07 995,0.072675,0.052317,0.013108,0.008695,0.012461,0 .004704,-0.023144,-0.00341,-0.005695,0.016204,0.007019,-0.005836,0.021745,0.020861,-0.001267,0.00176,0.002501,-0.008984,-0.005193,0.005546,0.00976,0.005748
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004,0.12862,0.131003,0.082 967,0.075259,0.048624,0.025937,0.00752,0.011999,0. 002863,-0.019135,0.002111,-0.008692,0.020218,0.021607,-0.0095,0.009546,0.007953,-0.0019,0.005531,0.008504,-0.011355,0.005688,0.005916,-0.01699,-0.004191
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA005,0.120652,0.137096,0.07 1276,0.071706,0.049548,0.01004,0.01081,0.014538,-0.009408,-0.018041,-0.00341,-0.001499,0.003419,0.018717,0.00285,-0.004773,0.003129,-0.002154,0.005154,0.004502,-0.009858,-0.004946,0.008381,-0.007591,0.001796
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA006,0.130897,0.125926,0.06 2979,0.063308,0.040623,0.019801,0.00329,0.013846,0 .001227,-0.020046,-0.00065,-0.01079,0.016353,0.026148,-0.015065,-0.01538,-0.002738,-0.003547,0.005405,-0.007379,0.000624,0.003462,0.00493,-0.006627,-0.001078
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA007,0.129758,0.133034,0.08 2967,0.070737,0.049548,0.026216,0.005405,0.011769,-0.002659,-0.036447,0.003735,-0.01124,0.018285,0.023946,-0.009365,-0.014452,-0.002738,0.001014,-0.001131,0.010755,0.000374,0.001237,-0.001972,-0.009158,0.012214
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA008,0.132035,0.135065,0.07 6555,0.06137,0.043085,0.025937,0.00564,0.007384,0. 002045,-0.02041,-0.010555,-0.005995,0.014569,0.004129,-0.012758,0.001856,0.022035,-0.000633,0.005531,0.002501,-0.00025,-0.002349,-0.001849,-0.006748,0.001078
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010,0.129758,0.123895,0.06 5996,0.065246,0.042777,0.025937,0.007755,0.009461,-0.005113,-0.018588,-0.002273,-0.009442,0.013528,0.021469,-0.00665,-0.012331,-0.009648,-0.007221,0.006662,-0.007504,-0.000499,0.000866,0.007518,-0.003253,-0.000958
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011,0.125205,0.129988,0.07 8818,0.072675,0.047701,0.027889,0.013161,0.006692, 0.005522,-0.020593,-0.00065,-0.009292,0.018583,0.027249,-0.011672,-0.010342,-0.006389,0.00266,0.008045,0.002876,-0.011729,-0.008037,0.007272,-0.003494,0.003952

Vbnetkhio do you agree with me?

I'm asking you because you used to argue that Proto-Slavs were Ukrainian-like.

But how can we explain Belarusian-like individuals in Krakauer Berg? And Av2?

There was no Baltic migration to Sachsen-Anhalt, only Slavic.


I've included in the graph only the populations who overlap the cluster made out of the samples you've posted above:

Kashubians are totally in it
Poles overlap most of it
Ukrainians overlap maybe 1/3 of it
southern Russians overlap 1/4 to 1/5 of it
Belarussians and Lithuanians overlap it just a bit

so Poles look like most similar to Krakauer Berg population, then Ukrainians and Russians.

https://i.imgur.com/X14dONZ.png

[Voskos]

North Slavs doesn't exist. They are just Slavs. South Slavs are mixes of slav-South euro-central euro. West Slavs are mixes of Central euro-slav.

[Dušan]

Well...
https://i.imgur.com/JRMEoHw.jpg

:cool:

[Nurzat]

the graph is more informative than the distance to the national average of various populations, because, for example, Ukrainians have a much larger overlap with Krakauer Berg than Belarusians, but Belarusians have the average point closer to Krakauer average just because their cluster is much smaller than the Ukrainian or Polish clusters, so all the samples are grouped much closer. so looking at the graph I posted above we can see the overlap is with Poles mainly, then with Ukrainians and Russians and only marginally with Belarusians and Lithuanians.

that area of overlap between Krakauer, Poles, Ukrainians and south Russians seems like a good candidate for a common denominator for East and West Slavs that could be described as "(North) Slavic core cluster".


Slavic_core,0.134083,0.125723,0.070672,0.067055,0. 040623,0.025379,0.011704,0.011446,-0.003968,-0.023035,-0.006496,-0.007583,0.016234,0.023451,-0.009175,-0.002042,0.002686,0.00071,0.006235,0.000875,-0.00015,-0.002894,0.003599,-0.00829,0.00206

averaged out of:


Belarusian:Belarusian11,0.129758,0.129988,0.075424 ,0.063954,0.043393,0.027331,0.013396,0.015692,0.00 3477,-0.023144,-0.008282,-0.008243,0.016353,0.025735,-0.010586,-0.005569,0,0.003421,0.006159,-0.009505,-0.004742,-0.000742,0.008997,-0.010483,0.004191
Polish:Polish5,0.136588,0.118817,0.06675,0.06783,0 .044008,0.021196,0.012926,0.015461,-0.005522,-0.023508,-0.010718,-0.008393,0.020515,0.015964,-0.003936,0.008751,0.013299,0.002407,0.000126,0.001 751,-0.004367,-0.00371,0.003697,-0.005181,0.00455
Russian_Smolensk:RUS_Smol312,0.133173,0.133034,0.0 71653,0.06783,0.039392,0.021196,0.011986,0.014769, 0.001432,-0.026789,-0.003897,-0.01124,0.012785,0.027249,-0.006786,-0.001193,0.008475,-0.000253,0.001885,0.01013,0.007112,-0.004204,0.004314,-0.010242,0.006706
Polish:Polish17,0.135449,0.123895,0.070522,0.06492 3,0.035699,0.034025,0.013396,-0.000462,-0.008999,-0.018041,-0.006008,0.001199,0.019475,0.029176,-0.00665,-0.004906,-0.008866,0.002027,0.019483,-0.004502,0.004367,0.002844,0.003451,-0.016749,0.001916
Ukrainian_Rivne:EG600017,0.135449,0.122879,0.06901 3,0.070737,0.040623,0.023148,0.006815,0.011769,-0.010226,-0.023691,-0.003573,-0.01124,0.012042,0.01913,-0.017915,-0.007292,0.000522,-0.004054,0.00352,0.006503,-0.003119,-0.008656,-0.002465,0.001205,-0.007065

[Far_away]

0.07403227 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA002
0.07738347 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA008
0.08420205 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA006
0.08511776 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA005
0.08781524 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010
0.08893398 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA001
0.09329951 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA003
0.09718992 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004
0.09791998 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011
0.10412520 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA007

Distance: 7.3465% / 0.07346518
100.0 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA

for super slav must add thracian and illyrian

Distance: 1.9404% / 0.01940430
46.4 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
28.4 Thracian
25.2 Illyrian


0.05212947 Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692
0.07403227 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA002
0.07738347 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA008
0.08420205 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA006
0.08511776 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA005
0.08781524 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010
0.08893398 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA001
0.09016783 Thracian:I5769
0.09329951 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA003
0.09718992 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004
0.09791998 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011
0.10412520 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA007

[Vessna]

:cool:

Uncivilized by choice [emoji18]

[majevica]

0.07403227 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA002
0.07738347 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA008
0.08420205 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA006
0.08511776 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA005
0.08781524 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010
0.08893398 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA001
0.09329951 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA003
0.09718992 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004
0.09791998 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011
0.10412520 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA007

Distance: 7.3465% / 0.07346518
100.0 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA

for super slav must add thracian and illyrian

Distance: 1.9404% / 0.01940430
46.4 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
28.4 Thracian
25.2 Illyrian


0.05212947 Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692
0.07403227 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA002
0.07738347 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA008
0.08420205 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA006
0.08511776 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA005
0.08781524 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010
0.08893398 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA001
0.09016783 Thracian:I5769
0.09329951 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA003
0.09718992 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004
0.09791998 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011
0.10412520 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA007

Target: majevica_scaled
Distance: 2.1503% / 0.02150252
60.8 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
39.2 Thracian

Target: majevica_scaled
Distance: 2.0295% / 0.02029463
59.0 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
39.4 Thracian
1.6 Hunnic

Target: majevica_scaled
Distance: 1.8669% / 0.01866905
52.6 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
38.6 Thracian
8.8 Sarmatian

No Illyrian for me

[cass]

0.07403227 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA002
0.07738347 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA008
0.08420205 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA006
0.08511776 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA005
0.08781524 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010
0.08893398 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA001
0.09329951 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA003
0.09718992 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004
0.09791998 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011
0.10412520 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA007

Distance: 7.3465% / 0.07346518
100.0 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA

for super slav must add thracian and illyrian

Distance: 1.9404% / 0.01940430
46.4 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
28.4 Thracian
25.2 Illyrian


0.05212947 Illyrian:ALB_Cinamak_Anc:I14692
0.07403227 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA002
0.07738347 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA008
0.08420205 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA006
0.08511776 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA005
0.08781524 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010
0.08893398 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA001
0.09016783 Thracian:I5769
0.09329951 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA003
0.09718992 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004
0.09791998 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011
0.10412520 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA007


BosniaHerzegovina_Medieval,0.126344,0.131003,0.065 242,0.05168,0.030775,0.02761,0.009635,0.009692,-0.007363,-0.010752,-0.005846,-0.002248,0.004757,0.030552,-0.010858,-0.006099,-0.015255,-0.001394,0.006536,-0.009004,-0.008859,0.000124,0.015529,0.001325,0.002036
This Bosnian medieval sample is far enough away from the Slavic nucleus.

https://i.ibb.co/F33j9Gb/Vahaduo-Global-25-North-Europe-PCA-28.png (https://ibb.co/vqqKb2x)

[Vessna]

Pietu Aukštaitija (South Aukštaitija)= Lithuanian_PA average in G25.

This region is strongly Slavic-shifted.

This is my region of origin according to Illustrative and 23andMe.

[rothaer]

the graph is more informative than the distance to the national average of various populations, because, for example, Ukrainians have a much larger overlap with Krakauer Berg than Belarusians, but Belarusians have the average point closer to Krakauer average just because their cluster is much smaller than the Ukrainian or Polish clusters, so all the samples are grouped much closer. so looking at the graph I posted above we can see the overlap is with Poles mainly, then with Ukrainians and Russians and only marginally with Belarusians and Lithuanians.

that area of overlap between Krakauer, Poles, Ukrainians and south Russians seems like a good candidate for a common denominator for East and West Slavs that could be described as "(North) Slavic core cluster".


Slavic_core,0.134083,0.125723,0.070672,0.067055,0. 040623,0.025379,0.011704,0.011446,-0.003968,-0.023035,-0.006496,-0.007583,0.016234,0.023451,-0.009175,-0.002042,0.002686,0.00071,0.006235,0.000875,-0.00015,-0.002894,0.003599,-0.00829,0.00206

averaged out of:


Belarusian:Belarusian11,0.129758,0.129988,0.075424 ,0.063954,0.043393,0.027331,0.013396,0.015692,0.00 3477,-0.023144,-0.008282,-0.008243,0.016353,0.025735,-0.010586,-0.005569,0,0.003421,0.006159,-0.009505,-0.004742,-0.000742,0.008997,-0.010483,0.004191
Polish:Polish5,0.136588,0.118817,0.06675,0.06783,0 .044008,0.021196,0.012926,0.015461,-0.005522,-0.023508,-0.010718,-0.008393,0.020515,0.015964,-0.003936,0.008751,0.013299,0.002407,0.000126,0.001 751,-0.004367,-0.00371,0.003697,-0.005181,0.00455
Russian_Smolensk:RUS_Smol312,0.133173,0.133034,0.0 71653,0.06783,0.039392,0.021196,0.011986,0.014769, 0.001432,-0.026789,-0.003897,-0.01124,0.012785,0.027249,-0.006786,-0.001193,0.008475,-0.000253,0.001885,0.01013,0.007112,-0.004204,0.004314,-0.010242,0.006706
Polish:Polish17,0.135449,0.123895,0.070522,0.06492 3,0.035699,0.034025,0.013396,-0.000462,-0.008999,-0.018041,-0.006008,0.001199,0.019475,0.029176,-0.00665,-0.004906,-0.008866,0.002027,0.019483,-0.004502,0.004367,0.002844,0.003451,-0.016749,0.001916
Ukrainian_Rivne:EG600017,0.135449,0.122879,0.06901 3,0.070737,0.040623,0.023148,0.006815,0.011769,-0.010226,-0.023691,-0.003573,-0.01124,0.012042,0.01913,-0.017915,-0.007292,0.000522,-0.004054,0.00352,0.006503,-0.003119,-0.008656,-0.002465,0.001205,-0.007065

I plotted in your data here. The two Poles that you have seem not representative if you compare to all Poles with 4 ethnic Polish grandparents that I've collected. Some others also seem fringe but the total numbers of testees is much lower than for Poles so it's harder to assess.

https://i.imgur.com/nJJ7oYd.jpg

[cass]

I plotted in your data here. The two Poles that you have seem not representative if you compare to all Poles with 4 ethnic Polish grandparents that I've collected. Some others also seem fringe but the total numbers of testees is much lower than for Poles so it's harder to assess.

https://i.imgur.com/nJJ7oYd.jpg

Early medieval samples are so diverse that it can be said that the Slavs are a linguistic complex rather than strictly genetic. The search for a single point of reference is the search for the holy grail.
Rather, it would be appropriate to indicate the wide area between Pskov, Smolensk, Orel, Chernichov, Rivne, and the Vistula in the west.


Distance to: HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2
0.02329749 Early_Medieval_Wielkopolska
0.02397929 Poland_Viking.SG
0.02875635 Early_Medieval_Mazovia
0.03014533 Kazakhstan_GoldenHordeEuro.SG
0.03050783 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011
0.03127375 Hungary_IA_LaTene_o3
0.03156846 Medieval_Dziekanowice:PCA0354
0.03179335 Hungary_Avar_5
0.03189560 Medieval_Lad:PCA0194
0.03193667 Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG
0.03274089 Medieval_Ostrow_Lednicki:PCA0340
0.03402128 POL_Cedynia_VA:VK212
0.03482163 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010
0.03489271 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA001
0.03499844 Medieval_Legowo:PCA0167
0.03546870 DNK_Funen_VA:VK139
0.03558785 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA006
0.03623870 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004
0.03634480 Russia_Viking_o.SG
0.03676672 Medieval_Markowice:PCA0156
0.03682777 Medieval_Lad:PCA0197
0.03704452 Medieval_Lad:PCA0185
0.03759376 Medieval_Ostrow_Lednicki:PCA0343
0.03804804 Medieval_Markowice:PCA0158
0.03807760 Medieval_Lad:PCA0203

Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA
0.01240801 Early_Medieval_Wielkopolska
0.01384853 Poland_Viking.SG
0.02068112 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011
0.02279394 Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG
0.02331418 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010
0.02380368 Medieval_Dziekanowice:PCA0354
0.02404713 Hungary_IA_LaTene_o3
0.02408257 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA006
0.02429154 Early_Medieval_Mazovia
0.02539800 DNK_Funen_VA:VK139
0.02615920 POL_Cedynia_VA:VK212
0.02655259 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004
0.02686052 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA007
0.02768221 Kazakhstan_GoldenHordeEuro.SG
0.02778359 Medieval_Lad:PCA0197
0.02810414 Medieval_Legowo:PCA0167
0.02825077 Medieval_Ostrow_Lednicki:PCA0340
0.02838810 Medieval_Ostrow_Lednicki:PCA0343
0.02923415 Medieval_Markowice:PCA0158
0.02928993 Medieval_Lad:PCA0194
0.03091353 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA001
0.03136565 Hungary_Avar_5
0.03145180 Medieval_Lad:PCA0199
0.03177259 Czech_Medieval
0.03212651 Medieval_Markowice:PCA0156

Distance to: Early_Medieval_Wielkopolska
0.01750521 Poland_Viking.SG
0.01809559 Early_Medieval_Mazovia
0.01976858 Medieval_Dziekanowice:PCA0354
0.02329749 HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2
0.02360086 Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG
0.02472420 Kazakhstan_GoldenHordeEuro.SG
0.02480147 Medieval_Ostrow_Lednicki:PCA0340
0.02499350 Hungary_IA_LaTene_o3
0.02505923 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011
0.02547776 Medieval_Lad:PCA0197
0.02592077 Medieval_Legowo:PCA0167
0.02623409 Medieval_Lad:PCA0194
0.02698571 DNK_Funen_VA:VK139
0.02702855 Russia_Viking_o.SG
0.02747076 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010
0.02755208 Medieval_Ostrow_Lednicki:PCA0343
0.02769821 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA001
0.02806147 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004
0.02848679 POL_Cedynia_VA:VK212
0.02941136 DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA006
0.03028605 Medieval_Lad:PCA0198
0.03059865 Medieval_Markowice:PCA0156
0.03061585 Ukraine_Medieval.SG
0.03160303 Medieval_Rumin:PCA0244
0.03224973 Medieval_Markowice:PCA0158

[Katarzyna]

This is my region of origin according to Illustrative and 23andMe.

You are so lucky. I’m more western shifted than you. I wish I was as Slavic as you

[Nurzat]

I plotted in your data here. The two Poles that you have seem not representative if you compare to all Poles with 4 ethnic Polish grandparents that I've collected. Some others also seem fringe but the total numbers of testees is much lower than for Poles so it's harder to assess.

because I took only the samples in the area where all these overlap: Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Belarusians and Krakauer Berg, so I took the samples in the plot area common to all of these, which I consider a candidate for the core Slavic area, the other directions showing various degrees of mixing in those directions (with Baltics to the North, Uralics to the Northeast, Steppe to the East, Germanics to the West or Balkanites or peoples with post-Neolithic remnants DNA like Trypillia or Globular Amphora to the South). although the area can be slightly enlarged in a circle to include more Belarussians and Ukrainians that are nearby, that is anyway the core

[rothaer]

because I took only the samples in the area where all these overlap: Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Belarusians and Krakauer Berg, so I took the samples in the plot area common to all of these, which I consider a candidate for the core Slavic area, the other directions showing various degrees of mixing in those directions (with Baltics to the North, Uralics to the Northeast, Steppe to the East, Germanics to the West or Balkanites or peoples with post-Neolithic remnants DNA like Trypillia or Globular Amphora to the South). although the area can be slightly enlarged in a circle to include more Belarussians and Ukrainians that are nearby, that is anyway the core

I see.

[rothaer]

Early medieval samples are so diverse that it can be said that the Slavs are a linguistic complex rather than strictly genetic. The search for a single point of reference is the search for the holy grail.
Rather, it would be appropriate to indicate the wide area between Pskov, Smolensk, Orel, Chernichov, Rivne, and the Vistula in the west.


I agree to such a conclusion.

The only additional question would be whether that descriebd core is maybe also the result of an expansion by "proto proto Slavs" in a first step and those may have been more homogenous genetically. But the actual relevance of that would not be too big, I guess.

[cass]

I agree to such a conclusion.

The only additional question would be whether that descriebd core is maybe also the result of an expansion by "proto proto Slavs" in a first step and those may have been more homogenous genetically. But the actual relevance of that would not be too big, I guess.

It is not certain whether we can find traces of the common ancestors of the Slavs in Belarus itself. It is possible that Belarus was not a place of ethnogenesis or that Belarus was baltized secondarily during the period of relatively modern Lithuanian domination. I can only guess, based on the relative proximity of Smolensk, Rivne and Mazovia, that the outer areas of the proto-Balto Slavs were similarly hybridized with the participation of steppe farmers and, to some extent, Goths and Celts.

[RogueState]

Balkans are overrepresented in all genetics/ethnic forums, chats, discussions, videos, ... on the Internet - it's not about being more interesting than Northern per se, it's just that people from Balkans are disproportionately interested in such topics, so it is more talked about and visible online

If you combine all West + East Slaves, there are probably 8-10x more people than South Slavs, and yet you feel it's the opposite online

[Dick]

the south Slavs shall rise again!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBKf48EB5-Q?feature=share

https://media.tenor.com/rHhJE8n3aUAAAAAd/lepo-selo-lepo-gore-serb.gif

[Far_away]

the south Slavs shall rise again!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBKf48EB5-Q?feature=share

https://media.tenor.com/rHhJE8n3aUAAAAAd/lepo-selo-lepo-gore-serb.gif


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWO718iy5mY

[Feiichy]

because I took only the samples in the area where all these overlap: Poles, Ukrainians, Russians, Belarusians and Krakauer Berg, so I took the samples in the plot area common to all of these, which I consider a candidate for the core Slavic area, the other directions showing various degrees of mixing in those directions (with Baltics to the North, Uralics to the Northeast, Steppe to the East, Germanics to the West or Balkanites or peoples with post-Neolithic remnants DNA like Trypillia or Globular Amphora to the South). although the area can be slightly enlarged in a circle to include more Belarussians and Ukrainians that are nearby, that is anyway the core

There is no need to speculate with modern samples when we already have early Slavic profile in ancient DNA.

[Feiichy]

It is not certain whether we can find traces of the common ancestors of the Slavs in Belarus itself. It is possible that Belarus was not a place of ethnogenesis or that Belarus was baltized secondarily during the period of relatively modern Lithuanian domination.

We have Belarusian/Lithuanian like early Slavic samples as south as Panonnia and as west as central Germany, while there never was any Baltic migration there. Samples that deviate from such profile are obviously admixed.

Belarus doesn't need to be place of ethnogenesis and it likely wasn't, but what is likely is that strongly Baltic like early Slavs lived in southeastern Poland and nearby. Just because modern locals there aren't like that that doesn't mean early Slavs were not more northern when all the evidence points they were.

[Feiichy]

By the way there are ethnic Polish (Poles from Lithuania) samples among Lithuanian regional averages in Global25. Especially Lithuanian_PA average includes some ethnic Poles, who have more western-shifted results than expected:


Pietu Aukštaitija (South Aukštaitija)= Lithuanian_PA average in G25.

This region is strongly Slavic-shifted.

Lithuanian_PA is in fact G25 average that is closest to ancient unmixed early Slavic average, followed by Belarusian.

Distance to: Early_Slavic_average

0.01808638 Lithuanian_PA
0.01845820 Belarusian
0.01919620 Russian_Smolensk
0.01951002 Lithuanian_VA
0.01953954 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.02029053 Russian_Pskov
0.02105864 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.02135704 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.02157643 Russian_Moscow
0.02287676 Russian_Voronezh
0.02378750 Russian_Kursk
0.02434153 Lithuanian_RA
0.02484254 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.02485818 Ukrainian
0.02529186 Russian_Kaluga
0.02547717 Polish
0.02551844 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.02578770 Russian_Orel
0.02663722 Russian_Belgorod
0.02705199 Lithuanian
0.02728838 Lithuanian_VZ
0.02747816 Ukrainian_Poltava
0.02765712 Russian_Voronezh_North
0.02780328 Russian_Samara
0.02858225 Cossack_Ukrainian_Zaporizhzhia


Early_Slavic,0.1294735,0.1289722,0.0736328,0.07186 75,0.0390842,0.029423,0.0124558,0.0142495,0.004039 2,-0.0276545,-0.0047498,-0.0102282,0.0119672,0.026114,-0.0141828,0.0009945,0.009355,-0.0011082,0.0074162,0.00247,-0.0013415,-0.0008035,0.005423,-0.0060848,0.0025145

This is how genetic profile of unmixed Slavs looked like.

[Leto]

We have Belarusian/Lithuanian like early Slavic samples as south as Panonnia and as west as central Germany, while there never was any Baltic migration there. Samples that deviate from such profile are obviously admixed.

Belarus doesn't need to be place of ethnogenesis and it likely wasn't, but what is likely is that strongly Baltic like early Slavs lived in southeastern Poland and nearby. Just because modern locals there aren't like that that doesn't mean early Slavs were not more northern when all the evidence points they were.
I don't think old Russians (pre-Mongol) would have scored like that. They would score like modern ones except for Northern and Ural Russians.

[Feiichy]

I don't think old Russians (pre-Mongol) would have scored like that. They would score like modern ones except for Northern and Ural Russians.

Old Russians were not early Slavs though.

[Dušan]

Lithuanian_PA is in fact G25 average that is closest to ancient unmixed early Slavic average, followed by Belarusian.

Distance to: Early_Slavic_average

0.01808638 Lithuanian_PA
0.01845820 Belarusian
0.01919620 Russian_Smolensk
0.01951002 Lithuanian_VA
0.01953954 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.02029053 Russian_Pskov
0.02105864 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.02135704 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.02157643 Russian_Moscow
0.02287676 Russian_Voronezh
0.02378750 Russian_Kursk
0.02434153 Lithuanian_RA
0.02484254 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.02485818 Ukrainian
0.02529186 Russian_Kaluga
0.02547717 Polish
0.02551844 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.02578770 Russian_Orel
0.02663722 Russian_Belgorod
0.02705199 Lithuanian
0.02728838 Lithuanian_VZ
0.02747816 Ukrainian_Poltava
0.02765712 Russian_Voronezh_North
0.02780328 Russian_Samara
0.02858225 Cossack_Ukrainian_Zaporizhzhia



This is how genetic profile of unmixed Slavs looked like.

Đe si Jano, mačko mala :o

I run this sample with modern population in 2-way model


0.025 Dušan_scaled = 55% Greek_Macedonia + 45% Early_Slavic
0.026 Dušan_scaled = 86% Serbian + 14% Early_Slavic
0.026 Dušan_scaled = 76% Romanian + 24% Early_Slavic
0.026 Dušan_scaled = 93% Moldovan + 7% Early_Slavic
0.026 Dušan_scaled = 50% Greek_Arcadia + 50% Early_Slavic
0.027 Dušan_scaled = 69% Bulgarian + 31% Early_Slavic
0.027 Dušan_scaled = 52% Greek_Thessaly + 48% Early_Slavic
0.027 Dušan_scaled = 50% Greek_Messenia + 50% Early_Slavic
0.027 Dušan_scaled = 51% Early_Slavic + 49% Greek_Argolis
0.027 Dušan_scaled = 72% Macedonian + 28% Early_Slavic

[Feiichy]

Đe si Jano, mačko mala :o

I run this sample with modern population in 2-way model


0.025 Dušan_scaled = 55% Greek_Macedonia + 45% Early_Slavic
0.026 Dušan_scaled = 86% Serbian + 14% Early_Slavic
0.026 Dušan_scaled = 76% Romanian + 24% Early_Slavic
0.026 Dušan_scaled = 93% Moldovan + 7% Early_Slavic
0.026 Dušan_scaled = 50% Greek_Arcadia + 50% Early_Slavic
0.027 Dušan_scaled = 69% Bulgarian + 31% Early_Slavic
0.027 Dušan_scaled = 52% Greek_Thessaly + 48% Early_Slavic
0.027 Dušan_scaled = 50% Greek_Messenia + 50% Early_Slavic
0.027 Dušan_scaled = 51% Early_Slavic + 49% Greek_Argolis
0.027 Dušan_scaled = 72% Macedonian + 28% Early_Slavic

Hi :o

my result

Distance to: F_scaled

0.02396167 42.40% Albanian + 57.60% Early_Slavic
0.02514936 51.00% Italian_Northeast + 49.00% Early_Slavic
0.02551896 45.00% Italian_Veneto + 55.00% Early_Slavic
0.02600910 38.00% Greek_Corinthia + 62.00% Early_Slavic
0.02607737 58.20% Romanian + 41.80% Early_Slavic
0.02634559 35.80% Greek_Cyclades_Kea + 64.20% Early_Slavic
0.02638221 38.20% Italian_Tuscany + 61.80% Early_Slavic
0.02641148 35.80% Italian_Umbria + 64.20% Early_Slavic
0.02646330 53.40% Bulgarian + 46.60% Early_Slavic
0.02646631 39.80% Italian_Emilia + 60.20% Early_Slavic
0.02649173 55.80% Macedonian + 44.20% Early_Slavic
0.02657777 42.40% Greek_Central_Macedonia + 57.60% Early_Slavic
0.02664189 41.20% Italian_Piedmont + 58.80% Early_Slavic
0.02666421 45.20% Italian_Trentino_Alto_Adige + 54.80% Early_Slavic
0.02694886 34.60% Greek_Izmir + 65.40% Early_Slavic
0.02702302 37.80% Greek_Argolis + 62.20% Early_Slavic
0.02713469 41.60% Italian_Bergamo + 58.40% Early_Slavic
0.02715172 38.40% Greek_Achaea + 61.60% Early_Slavic
0.02724404 38.00% Greek_Elis + 62.00% Early_Slavic
0.02735463 31.60% Greek_Cyclades_Tinos + 68.40% Early_Slavic
0.02744410 34.40% Greek_South_Tsakonia + 65.60% Early_Slavic
0.02752799 39.40% Greek_Thessaly + 60.60% Early_Slavic
0.02763993 37.40% Greek_Peloponnese + 62.60% Early_Slavic
0.02768295 39.20% Italian_Lombardy + 60.80% Early_Slavic
0.02768413 34.40% Italian_Lazio + 65.60% Early_Slavic

[cass]

We have Belarusian/Lithuanian like early Slavic samples as south as Panonnia and as west as central Germany, while there never was any Baltic migration there. Samples that deviate from such profile are obviously admixed.

Belarus doesn't need to be place of ethnogenesis and it likely wasn't, but what is likely is that strongly Baltic like early Slavs lived in southeastern Poland and nearby. Just because modern locals there aren't like that that doesn't mean early Slavs were not more northern when all the evidence points they were.

Can you provide lithuanian like samples from Panonia or SE Poland?

[Feiichy]

Can you provide lithuanian like samples from Panonia or SE Poland?

Yes, Avar_2 Szolad is one from Panonnia. I didn't bother with SE Poland that much, but there is one from Welikopolska and one from Cedynia. I also wouldn't call them Lithuanian like. In between Belarus and Slavic shifted Lithuania_PA average.

[cass]

Yes, Avar_2 Szolad is one from Panonnia. I didn't bother with SE Poland that much, but there is one from Welikopolska and one from Cedynia. I also wouldn't call them Lithuanian like. In between Belarus and Slavic shifted Lithuania_PA average.

https://i.ibb.co/swhWXkL/Vahaduo-Global-25-North-Europe-PCA-30.png (https://ibb.co/zR16tjK)
free pic storage (https://pl.imgbb.com/)
HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 is not Lithuanian like.


is likely is that strongly Baltic like early Slavs lived in southeastern Poland
Do you have any proof?

[Feiichy]

https://i.ibb.co/swhWXkL/Vahaduo-Global-25-North-Europe-PCA-30.png (https://ibb.co/zR16tjK)
free pic storage (https://pl.imgbb.com/)
HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 is not Lithuanian like.

Again, it is in Belarusian/Lithuania PA range and clusters with other samples with similar profile.


Do you have any proof?

If such profiles lived in southern Hungary, Baranya and Vojvodina than they lived in SE Poland too. I mentioned SE Poland only because it's probable Slavic homeland based on toponymy. However modern SE Poles have non neglible Balkan, and some Germanic input.

[Feiichy]

here is medieval sample from greater Poland that's very northern and it wasn't a migrating Balt:


MA_Lad:PCA0189,0.129758,0.127957,0.062225,0.077843 ,0.035699,0.03012,0.015981,0.020307,0.006749,-0.039363,-0.007307,-0.017534,0.005649,0.031103,-0.010993,0.005304,0.01017,-0.006334,0.012444,0.005503,-0.001248,0.002968,-0.000616,-0.005663,0.000838

Distance to: Balto-Slavic:MA_Lad:PCA0189

0.03491905 Russian_Pskov
0.03583181 Lithuanian_VA
0.03665973 Russian_Smolensk
0.03728005 Lithuanian_PA
0.03777888 Belarusian
0.03858040 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.03862343 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.03862733 Lithuanian_RA
0.03917406 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.03936004 Russian_Moscow
0.03951664 Russian_Kursk
0.04014668 Lithuanian_SZ
0.04080724 Russian_Voronezh
0.04111043 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.04127306 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.04135424 Russian_Kaluga
0.04140771 Russian_Orel
0.04142493 Lithuanian_VZ
0.04180955 Russian_Voronezh_North
0.04192796 Russian_Samara
0.04200275 Ukrainian
0.04207699 Lithuanian
0.04243711 Russian_NizhnyNovgorod
0.04282570 Russian_Novgorod
0.04294122 Russian_RyazanSpassk

[Feiichy]

Another from German border:
Medieval_Cedynia:VK212,0.124067,0.135065,0.075424, 0.072029,0.038469,0.027052,0.011986,0.020538,0.006 34,-0.027153,-0.006171,-0.01169,0.022002,0.031516,-0.016694,-0.01127,0.002347,0.003041,0.005028,-0.001501,-0.010606,0.004946,0.007518,-0.005422,0.00479

Distance to: Medieval_Cedynia:VK212

0.02470261 Belarusian
0.02643228 Russian_Smolensk
0.02828923 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.02905136 Lithuanian_PA
0.02972482 Lithuanian
0.03049418 Lithuanian_VA
0.03089218 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.03101882 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.03103757 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03144912 Russian_Pskov
0.03156080 Russian_Voronezh
0.03170905 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.03173192 Russian_Moscow
0.03176821 Lithuanian_RA
0.03288209 Ukrainian
0.03382922 Russian_Kaluga
0.03425558 Russian_Orel
0.03465966 Ukrainian_Donetsk
0.03518435 Russian_Belgorod
0.03518652 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03524762 Ukrainian_Poltava
0.03536528 Russian_Kursk
0.03542572 Polish
0.03628007 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.03686355 Cossack_Ukrainian_Zaporizhzhia

[cass]

Again, it is in Belarusian/Lithuania PA range and clusters with other samples with similar profile.



If such profiles lived in southern Hungary, Baranya and Vojvodina than they lived in SE Poland too. I mentioned SE Poland only because it's probable Slavic homeland based on toponymy. However modern SE Poles have non neglible Balkan, and some Germanic input.

HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 is not Lithuanian like neither ancient nor modern.

https://i.ibb.co/DGK00Cx/Vahaduo-Global-25-North-Europe-PCA-31.png (https://ibb.co/RhHRR0x)


Distance to: Slavic*(AD*540–1270):Slav*(Avar*Period):HUN_Avar_S zolad:Av2
0.02600687 Poland_Viking.SG:VK494_noUDG.SG
0.03024028 Denmark_Viking.SG:VK340_noUDG.SG
0.03050998 Hungary_Avar_5:AV1
0.03155518 Russia_Viking_o.SG:VK160_noUDG.SG
0.03163238 Poland_Lad_Middle_Ages:PCA0194
0.03228978 Poland_Niemcza_Middle_Ages:PCA0122
0.03326828 Poland_Viking.SG:VK157_noUDG.SG
0.03379545 Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG:Sunghir6_noUDG.SG
0.03388928 Czech_LBA_Knoviz:I16089
0.03429756 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK473_noUDG.SG
0.03444072 Kazakhstan_GoldenHordeEuro.SG:DA29_noUDG.SG
0.03464986 Poland_Dziekanowice_22_Middle_Ages:PCA0354
0.03496487 Poland_Ostrow_Lednicki_Middle_Ages:PCA0340
0.03544415 Poland_Lad_Middle_Ages:PCA0197
0.03627774 Poland_Maslomecz_IA_oEastEurope:PCA0103
0.03629385 Denmark_Viking.SG:VK139_noUDG.SG
0.03688298 Poland_Lad_Middle_Ages:PCA0187
0.03738225 Poland_Ostrow_Lednicki_Middle_Ages:PCA0343
0.03741707 Poland_Markowice_Middle_Ages:PCA0158
0.03751535 Poland_Viking.SG:VK212_noUDG.SG
0.03837680 Poland_Lad_Middle_Ages:PCA0185
0.03887261 Poland_Legowo_Middle_Ages:PCA0167
0.03893190 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK397_noUDG.SG
0.03947110 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK64_noUDG.SG
0.03954484 Poland_Markowice_Middle_Ages:PCA0156

[cass]

Another from German border:

Distance to: Medieval_Cedynia:VK212

0.02470261 Belarusian
0.02643228 Russian_Smolensk
0.02828923 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
0.02905136 Lithuanian_PA
0.02972482 Lithuanian
0.03049418 Lithuanian_VA
0.03089218 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.03101882 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.03103757 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03144912 Russian_Pskov
0.03156080 Russian_Voronezh
0.03170905 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.03173192 Russian_Moscow
0.03176821 Lithuanian_RA
0.03288209 Ukrainian
0.03382922 Russian_Kaluga
0.03425558 Russian_Orel
0.03465966 Ukrainian_Donetsk
0.03518435 Russian_Belgorod
0.03518652 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03524762 Ukrainian_Poltava
0.03536528 Russian_Kursk
0.03542572 Polish
0.03628007 Ukrainian_Dnipro
0.03686355 Cossack_Ukrainian_Zaporizhzhia

I don't know what you want to prove. We are talking about Pannonia and SE Poland.

[Feiichy]

HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 is not Lithuanian like neither ancient nor modern.


Av2 from Szolad is also Belarusian-like (and - if I recall correctly - Av1 was Av2's son and probably had one Non-Slavic parent):


<tbody>
Distance to:
HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2


0.02285860
Belarusian


0.02419895
Lithuanian_PA


0.02505394
Russian_Smolensk


0.02541556
Russian_Voronez


</tbody>

Lithuanian_PA is it's second closest modern population after Belarusian. And I said early Slavic cluster is somwhere in middle of the 2. What is contradictory here?

[Feiichy]

I don't know what you want to prove. We are talking about Pannonia and SE Poland.

I think you are in line with nationalistic Polish academia who want to prove Poles are purest Slavs. Some are, like Lucas, but on average Belarusians are closest to early Slavs from modern Slavic ethnicities. They have undeniable Baltic input but that is not in contradiction with apparent heavy Baltic shift of early Slavs anyhow.

[Varda]

---

Feiichy, ti li si? :)

[cass]

Lithuanian_PA is it's second closest modern population after Belarusian. And I said early Slavic cluster is somwhere in middle of the 2. What is contradictory here?

Check out ancient samples.

[cass]

I think you are in line with nationalistic Polish academia who want to prove Poles are purest Slavs. Some are, like Lucas, but on average Belarusians are closest to early Slavs from modern Slavic ethnicities. They have undeniable Baltic input but that is not in contradiction with apparent heavy Baltic shift of early Slavs anyhow.
LOL
I don't have an agenda. You said something stupid about Panonia and SE Poland so I point it out.

[Feiichy]

Feiichy, ti li si? :)

Da :P

[Feiichy]

LOL
I don't have an agenda. You said something stupid about Panonia and SE Poland so I point it out.

Emrace your Germanic input dear cass, you look like a German guy anyhow (half-joking) xD

[majevica]

Đe si Jano, mačko mala :o

I run this sample with modern population in 2-way model


0.025 Dušan_scaled = 55% Greek_Macedonia + 45% Early_Slavic
0.026 Dušan_scaled = 86% Serbian + 14% Early_Slavic
0.026 Dušan_scaled = 76% Romanian + 24% Early_Slavic
0.026 Dušan_scaled = 93% Moldovan + 7% Early_Slavic
0.026 Dušan_scaled = 50% Greek_Arcadia + 50% Early_Slavic
0.027 Dušan_scaled = 69% Bulgarian + 31% Early_Slavic
0.027 Dušan_scaled = 52% Greek_Thessaly + 48% Early_Slavic
0.027 Dušan_scaled = 50% Greek_Messenia + 50% Early_Slavic
0.027 Dušan_scaled = 51% Early_Slavic + 49% Greek_Argolis
0.027 Dušan_scaled = 72% Macedonian + 28% Early_Slavic

0.027 majevica_scaled = 51% Early_Slavic + 49% Paeonian:MKD_Anc
0.027 majevica_scaled = 62% Early_Slavic + 38% Thracian:BGR_KapitanAndreevo_IA
0.027 majevica_scaled = 55% Early_Slavic + 45% Roman_Dalmatian:HRV_Gardun:R3543
0.027 majevica_scaled = 64% Early_Slavic + 36% Thracian:Bulgaria_EIA:I20180
0.027 majevica_scaled = 60% Early_Slavic + 40% Thracian:BGR_IA

[Rogan]

Sure it is, just as much as Scandinavian is compared to Austrians& Co.

[cass]

Emrace your Germanic input dear cass, you look like a German guy anyhow (half-joking) xD

A woman's argument. Can you check out these samples? In my opinion, we underestimate the degree of Slavization of Lithuania since the Middle Ages.

Lithuania_Late_Antiquity_East_Lithuanian_Barrow_Ba iluliai,0.132035,0.131003,0.092772,0.102714,0.0486 24,0.036256,0.011281,0.017076,-0.008181,-0.043919,-0.000974,-0.017085,0.031367,0.036057,-0.014386,0.010475,0.007562,0.000127,0.005531,0.004 752,-0.00262,-0.008161,0.008504,-0.011688,0.000359
Lithuania_Late_Antiquity-Early_Medieval_Berciunai_(low_res),0.138864,0.1188 17,0.096543,0.099484,0.061242,0.048527,0.016686,0. 026307,-0.004704,-0.043919,-0.005359,-0.025927,0.042368,0.034681,0.0095,0.004375,-0.008736,0.003421,0.002891,-0.00963,0.013102,-0.018053,0.013927,-0.012411,0.002395
Lithuania_Late_Antiquity-Early_Medieval_Marvele,0.134596,0.125672,0.0974855 ,0.09803075,0.051702,0.04106675,0.01480575,0.01707 625,0.00092025,-0.04278,-0.00690125,-0.01678525,0.03073575,0.03726125,-0.010145,-0.00238675,-0.00029325,-0.0015205,0.0020425,0.006378,-0.00411775,-0.0037715,0.00868875,-0.01765275,-0.00125725

[Feiichy]

A woman's argument. Can you check out these samples? In my opinion, we underestimate the degree of Slavization of Lithuania since the Middle Ages.

You are completely right. These samples are Latvian like (notice the medieval Slavs that do approach southern Lithuanians are nowhere near Latvia!). It should mean Latvians are closer to medieval Balts and Lithuanians received significant Polish and Ruthenian (Belarusian) input.

Distance to: Lithuania_Late_Antiquity-Early_Medieval_Marvele

0.02444728 Latvian
0.02464099 Lithuanian_PZ
0.02705308 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03325262 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03350193 Lithuanian
0.03529118 Lithuanian_RA
0.03991915 Lithuanian_VA
0.04226009 Estonian
0.04472442 Lithuanian_PA
0.04493168 Russian_Pskov
0.04927049 Russian_Novgorod
0.05021669 Belarusian
0.05514719 Russian_Moscow
0.05525532 Russian_Smolensk
0.05593700 Russian_Kaluga
0.05894750 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.05975542 Russian_NizhnyNovgorod
0.06002824 Russian_Tver
0.06031580 Russian_Kursk
0.06092068 Russian_Voronezh
0.06141701 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.06224481 Russian_TverKashin
0.06251635 Russian_Vladimir
0.06258056 Russian_Orel
0.06281089 Polish_Kashubian

Distance to: Lithuania_Late_Antiquity_East_Lithuanian_Barrow_Ba iluliai

0.02498899 Latvian
0.02654102 Lithuanian_SZ
0.03127710 Lithuanian_PZ
0.03327984 Lithuanian_RA
0.03644774 Lithuanian_VZ
0.03771133 Lithuanian
0.03952243 Lithuanian_VA
0.04381212 Lithuanian_PA
0.04383454 Estonian
0.04586450 Russian_Pskov
0.05038210 Russian_Novgorod
0.05224683 Belarusian
0.05577721 Russian_Moscow
0.05722723 Russian_Kaluga
0.05764537 Russian_Smolensk
0.05949879 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.05982774 Russian_Tver
0.05989142 Russian_NizhnyNovgorod
0.06011422 Russian_Kursk
0.06080111 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.06165936 Russian_Voronezh
0.06223377 Russian_TverKashin
0.06285954 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.06315411 Russian_Vladimir
0.06353334 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr


Distance to: Lithuania_Late_Antiquity-Early_Medieval_Berciunai_(low_res)

0.05004922 Lithuanian_PZ
0.05150380 Latvian
0.05347724 Lithuanian_SZ
0.05733833 Lithuanian_VZ
0.05765986 Lithuanian
0.06026600 Estonian
0.06072269 Lithuanian_RA
0.06423922 Lithuanian_VA
0.06690787 Russian_Pskov
0.06747280 Lithuanian_PA
0.07001104 Russian_Novgorod
0.07080127 Belarusian
0.07589614 Russian_Moscow
0.07603379 Russian_Smolensk
0.07686170 Russian_Kaluga
0.07800734 Russian_Tver
0.07826966 Polish_Kashubian
0.07942068 Russian_NizhnyNovgorod
0.07950764 Russian_Kursk
0.07969610 Ukrainian_Chernihiv
0.08030058 Ukrainian_Volyn
0.08042164 Ingrian
0.08108123 Russian_TverKashin
0.08131940 Russian_Yaroslavl
0.08136247 Russian_Vladimir

[Feiichy]

^^^^Notice how Lithuanian_PA average is furthest from these samples and they are closer to Estonians than to Belarusians.

[Far_away]

Đe si Jano, mačko mala :o

I run this sample with modern population in 2-way model


0.025 Dušan_scaled = 55% Greek_Macedonia + 45% Early_Slavic
0.026 Dušan_scaled = 86% Serbian + 14% Early_Slavic
0.026 Dušan_scaled = 76% Romanian + 24% Early_Slavic
0.026 Dušan_scaled = 93% Moldovan + 7% Early_Slavic
0.026 Dušan_scaled = 50% Greek_Arcadia + 50% Early_Slavic
0.027 Dušan_scaled = 69% Bulgarian + 31% Early_Slavic
0.027 Dušan_scaled = 52% Greek_Thessaly + 48% Early_Slavic
0.027 Dušan_scaled = 50% Greek_Messenia + 50% Early_Slavic
0.027 Dušan_scaled = 51% Early_Slavic + 49% Greek_Argolis
0.027 Dušan_scaled = 72% Macedonian + 28% Early_Slavic

;)
0.023 Far_scaled = 68% Albanian + 32% Early_Slavic
0.024 Far_scaled = 70% Rumelia_East + 30% Early_Slavic
0.024 Far_scaled = 100% Montenegrin + 0% Early_Slavic
0.025 Far_scaled = 62% Greek_Corinthia + 38% Early_Slavic
0.025 Far_scaled = 69% Greek_Central_Macedonia + 31% Early_Slavic
0.026 Far_scaled = 62% Greek_Argolis + 38% Early_Slavic
0.026 Far_scaled = 57% Greek_Izmir + 43% Early_Slavic
0.026 Far_scaled = 63% Greek_Achaea + 37% Early_Slavic
0.026 Far_scaled = 63% Greek_Elis + 37% Early_Slavic
0.026 Far_scaled = 62% Greek_Peloponnese + 38% Early_Slavic
0.027 Far_scaled = 54% Greek_Apulia + 46% Early_Slavic

[cass]

^^^^Notice how Lithuanian_PA average is furthest from these samples and they are closer to Estonians than to Belarusians.

Distance to: Lithuanian_PZ:LTG-1099
0.02206891 Lithuania_Marvele_Roman.SG:R10836.SG
0.02622096 Lithuania_Late_Antiquity-Early_Medieval_Marvele
0.03185247 Lithuania_BA:Turlojiske3
0.03254997 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK475_noUDG.SG
0.03341584 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK478_noUDG.SG
0.03459600 Latvia_BA:Kivutkalns215
0.03599754 Hungary_EarlyAvar:CSB-9.SG
0.03723900 Lithuania_BA:Turlojiske1
0.03858202 Lithuania_Marvele_Roman.SG:R10830.SG
0.03929300 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK434_noUDG.SG
0.03959772 Estonia_IA.SG:s19_X04_1_noUDG.SG
0.04010249 Poland_Viking.SG:VK212_noUDG.SG
0.04048028 Lithuania_Marvele_Roman.SG:R10832.SG
0.04056047 Hungary_IA_LaTene_o3:I25524
0.04075792 Lithuania_Late_Antiquity_East_Lithuanian_Barrow_Ba iluliai
0.04108257 Poland_Legowo_Middle_Ages:PCA0167
0.04137655 Latvia_BA:Kivutkalns42
0.04210281 Serbia_Viminacium_Roman.SG:R6759.SG
0.04246340 Poland_Legowo_Middle_Ages:PCA0165
0.04289047 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK432_noUDG.SG
0.04290633 Lithuania_Bailuliai_BarrowCulture.SG:R10840.SG
0.04350181 Poland_Ostrow_Lednicki_Middle_Ages:PCA0340
0.04380263 Russia_Viking_o.SG:VK160_noUDG.SG
0.04382167 Poland_Oblaczkowo_Middle_Ages:PCA0216
0.04388270 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK60_noUDG.SG



Distance to: Lithuanian_PA:LTG-173
0.02456883 Poland_Dziekanowice_22_Middle_Ages:PCA0354
0.02568014 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK474_noUDG.SG
0.02572857 Poland_Ostrow_Lednicki_Middle_Ages:PCA0343
0.02722328 Poland_Legowo_Middle_Ages:PCA0167
0.02843043 Poland_Plonsk_Middle_Ages:PCA0319
0.02869019 Poland_Niemcza_Middle_Ages:PCA0122
0.02870951 Russia_Sunghir_Medieval.SG:Sunghir6_noUDG.SG
0.02926896 Poland_Lad_Middle_Ages:PCA0194
0.02989914 Denmark_Viking.SG:VK139_noUDG.SG
0.02993703 Poland_Viking.SG:VK494_noUDG.SG
0.03035374 Russia_Viking_o.SG:VK160_noUDG.SG
0.03053160 Poland_Lad_Middle_Ages:PCA0199
0.03101062 Kazakhstan_GoldenHordeEuro.SG:DA29_noUDG.SG
0.03103112 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK475_noUDG.SG
0.03138122 Denmark_Viking.SG:VK340_noUDG.SG
0.03194581 Poland_Ostrow_Lednicki_Middle_Ages:PCA0340
0.03260665 Poland_Lad_Middle_Ages:PCA0197
0.03318293 Poland_Lad_Middle_Ages:PCA0198
0.03384620 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK397_noUDG.SG
0.03425206 Poland_Viking.SG:VK157_noUDG.SG
0.03497819 Hungary_IA_LaTene_o3:I25509
0.03550987 Sweden_Viking.SG:VK473_noUDG.SG
0.03569196 Poland_Plonsk_Middle_Ages:PCA0317
0.03577070 Ukraine_Medieval.SG:VK541_noUDG.SG
0.03577858 Serbia_Viminacium_Roman_elite_1.SG:R9673.SG


One can clearly distinguish some samples of Lithuanians from Poles of Lithuania (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Mapa_rozsiedlenia_ludno%C5%9Bci_polskiej_na_tereni e_Litwy_w_1929.jpg).


Until the 20th century, due to social differences (peasants/minor nobility), the two groups did not mix.

[cass]

https://i.ibb.co/nzTsTf7/0casb.jpg (https://ibb.co/bzxgxLs)
I could be wrong, of course, but I think that the division between Aukštaitija and Samogitia is visible. Samogitia has retained its Baltic character. Western Lithuania is under Scandinavian influence. From the east and south, we have Belarusian influences (represented by the Russian Viking_o). From the south of Aukštaitija to the north as far as Latvia was penetrated by Polish colonization (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Mapa_rozsiedlenia_ludno%C5%9Bci_polskiej_na_tereni e_Litwy_w_1929.jpg).