What percentage of Icelandic ancestry is Insular Celtic?

[Italicus]

Hey everyone, as most of you know Norsemen took Gaelic thralls with them too Iceland and it has been proven genetically that Icelanders have a great deal of Celtic ancestry. But what percentage of their DNA derives from Britons and Gaels?

[RenaRyuguu]

idk but I support their football team!

[Grace O'Malley]

At the founding of Iceland it was more 50/50 but now it is 30 Gaelic/70 Scandinavian. I've heard it theorised that this was due to a higher survival rate for the Scandinavians in comparison to the Gaelic thralls although I think the slave thing is a bit overcooked as a lot of the people that populated Iceland originally from the Scottish Islands and the Irish colonies were already Gael Gall. There was undoubtedly some thralls but many Vikings were already intermarried into Irish and Scottish clans/dynasties. Also there was direct colonisation for a longer period from Scandinavians and less came from the Hiberno and Scottish colonies so the Scandinavian input increased. The latest Icelandic study put the figure at 30% Gaelic/70% Scandinavian for the modern Icelander.


Sequencing using samples from teeth revealed the settlers had a roughly even split of Norse (from what are today Norway and Sweden) and Gaelic ancestry. It is the first in-depth investigation of how a new population is formed through a genetic process known as “admixture”.

When the researchers compared the ancient genomes to those of modern people in Iceland and other European countries, they found contemporary Icelanders, on average, draw about 70 per cent of their genes from Norse ancestry.

This suggests that in the 1,100 years between settlement and today, the population underwent a surprisingly quick genetic shift in favour of Norse genes, the researchers report in the journal Science.


They confirm that while the ancient settlers, “mainly Norse men and Gaelic women”, are genetically indistinguishable from present-day Irish, Scots and Scandinavians, present-day Icelanders have over the course of 1,000 years, and numerous population bottlenecks, become a distinct new population.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/dna-study-reveals-fate-of-irish-women-taken-by-vikings-as-slaves-to-iceland-1.3521206

[Grace O'Malley]

Here's a graphic from the study on Iceland showing some ancient genomes. Most of them have admixture. I have read the study and it used to be freely available but doesn't appear accessible anymore.

https://i.imgur.com/552vuVE.png

My third closest match on MyTrueAncestry is one of these VDP-A6.

https://i.imgur.com/U0Zf5K3.png

[Grace O'Malley]

This is very interesting in pinpointing where some of these Gaels came from.


We first confirmed that our underlying modern British and Irish structure does not dramatically change the ancestry estimates of the ancient Icelanders (SI Appendix, Supplementary Data 7). Using Human Genome Diversity Project (HGDP) Yorubans as an outgroup, we calculated the D statistic of 2 groups of ancient individuals to either British or Irish genetic regions, or modern Scandinavia (Fig. 4). The British or Irish regions included some merged fineSTRUCTURE clusters in Orkney, Shetland, and the Hebrides, Donegal (Donegal 1 and 2), Ireland (N Ireland, C Ireland), and S Ireland (Munster) to increase sample sizes of those regions. The 2 groups of ancient Icelanders were those of predominantly Gaelic (n = 7) or Norse (n = 10) ancestry (see SI Appendix, Supplementary Data 7 for more information). All but one of the predominantly Norse ancient Icelanders share significantly (Z > 3) more drift with modern Scandinavian individuals than with the British sample (Fig. 4). The predominantly Gaelic ancient Icelanders show differing affinities across the British and Irish groups. They show the greatest affinity to the “Gaelic” populations of Scotland and Ireland as opposed to English regions (Fig. 4). The smallest estimates of D, which correspond to the largest British/Irish affinity compared to Scandinavia, are to Donegal, the Hebrides, and Argyll. This corresponds to the northwestern region of the British Isles and Ireland which is known to have experienced heavy Viking activity (1). Interestingly we observe some ancient Gaelic Icelanders, in contrast, share affinity with different clusters (SI Appendix, Fig. S8), notably KNS-A1, who shows greater affinity to the south of Ireland. Our results provide genetic evidence either of Viking-mediated migration of Gaels from the northwest of the British Isles and Ireland or, at least, that these modern regions represent the best proxy of the true ancient Gaelic source populations in the absence of direct ancient DNA sampling.

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/38/19064

KNS-A1 mentioned as having the affinity to Southern Ireland is the fully Gaelic sample above. They were also female.

[Benyzero]

Idk but I can see it in them , they look like between english and norwegian.

[Grace O'Malley]

This is from another study Population Genomics of the Viking World. What I find interesting about it is the distinctions made between the Norse Vikings and the Danes. I've always found it interesting that in some history books and the Irish Annals it was claimed that it was the Norse that attacked Ireland and the Scottish Isles and the Danes concentrated on England. This graphic below appears to back that up although newer studies might change things.

https://i.imgur.com/6FdtzhR.png

[J. Ketch]

About 1/3. Interestingly they plot closest to North Dutch/Frisians, who don't have any known Insular Celtic influence.

[Rædwald]

About 1/3. Interestingly they plot closest to North Dutch/Frisians, who don't have any known Insular Celtic influence.

Explains why so many calcs give me Icelandic, I think they would be similar with other Celto-Germanics in terms of relative admixture.

[Italicus]

About 1/3. Interestingly they plot closest to North Dutch/Frisians, who don't have any known Insular Celtic influence.

It could be shared Bell Beaker ancestry, perhaps. I could be wrong though.

[J. Ketch]

It could be shared Bell Beaker ancestry, perhaps. I could be wrong though.
Yes, that's most definitely it, the people of the Elp culture in the Northern Netherlands were strongly related to the Bronze Age British/Irish, and the Irish are mostly of that stock.

[Token]

Yes, that's most definitely it, the people of the Elp culture in the Northern Netherlands were strongly related to the Bronze Age British/Irish, and the Irish are mostly of that stock.

I'd say the Northern Dutch are largely descended from later newcomers from the region of Denmark and Northern Germany though, the archaeological records shows that the population of the Netherlands had abandoned the region due to floods just before the Migration Period. After a hiatus of almost one century without any sign of population Anglo-Saxon stuff start popping up in the 5th century.

[Italicus]

I'd say the Northern Dutch are largely descended from later newcomers from the region of Denmark and Northern Germany though, the archaeological records shows that the population of the Netherlands had abandoned the region due to floods just before the Migration Period. After a hiatus of almost one century without any sign of population Anglo-Saxon stuff start popping up in the 5th century.

Yes, but they still gained a substantial amount of Bell Beaker ancestry.

[Token]

Yes, but they still gained a substantial amount of Bell Beaker ancestry.

Yeah but hardly enough to explain the similarity, which is overrated anyway. On higher Ks, North Dutch and Frisians are closest to Scandinavians. Here are some North Dutch-Frisian people on G25:


Distance to: Elske_scaled
0.02601913 Norwegian
0.02857167 Irish
0.02952400 Dutch
0.02978586 Danish
0.03012991 Shetlandic
0.03045890 Scottish
0.03135348 Icelandic
0.03139393 English
0.03218004 Welsh
0.03273522 Orcadian
0.03432729 Swedish
0.03468523 English_Cornwall
0.03497939 French_Brittany
0.03946775 German
0.04103909 Afrikaner
0.04383285 Belgian
0.04443650 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04881676 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04921976 French_Nord
0.04955032 French_Paris
0.05114260 Austrian
0.05200312 French_Alsace
0.05358046 German_East
0.05384956 Swiss_German
0.05519136 Czech

Distance to: Finn
0.01816289 Danish
0.02150866 Icelandic
0.02253556 Swedish
0.02486450 Norwegian
0.02601398 Dutch
0.02636507 English
0.02638797 Orcadian
0.02656486 Scottish
0.02680023 Welsh
0.02769104 Irish
0.02811302 Shetlandic
0.02847889 English_Cornwall
0.03168388 German
0.03328738 French_Brittany
0.03689929 German_East
0.03873207 Afrikaner
0.04104029 Czech
0.04425250 Belgian
0.04532301 Austrian
0.04569097 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04577286 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04739275 French_Nord
0.04997627 French_Alsace
0.05006322 French_Paris
0.05058373 Hungarian

Distance to: FinnDad
0.01516916 Danish
0.01726704 Dutch
0.01808711 English
0.01954581 Scottish
0.01963098 Welsh
0.02014322 English_Cornwall
0.02047578 Orcadian
0.02060580 Icelandic
0.02212728 Irish
0.02328750 Shetlandic
0.02339186 Swedish
0.02450106 German
0.02473374 Norwegian
0.02564631 French_Brittany
0.03028941 Afrikaner
0.03312406 German_East
0.03481989 Belgian
0.03802218 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03829989 Austrian
0.03859592 French_Nord
0.03869770 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04020081 Czech
0.04075138 French_Alsace
0.04149116 French_Paris
0.04334578 Swiss_German

Distance to: FinnMom
0.02045044 Danish
0.02157118 Icelandic
0.02304698 Norwegian
0.02352380 Swedish
0.02499060 Welsh
0.02539392 English
0.02540180 Orcadian
0.02607665 Scottish
0.02644645 Dutch
0.02764412 English_Cornwall
0.02776021 Irish
0.02925107 German
0.02950089 Shetlandic
0.03071308 French_Brittany
0.03677141 German_East
0.03759707 Afrikaner
0.03938699 Czech
0.04134780 Belgian
0.04166694 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04186753 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04254301 Austrian
0.04363904 French_Nord
0.04629258 French_Paris
0.04630690 French_Alsace
0.04821435 Hungarian

[Grace O'Malley]

This is my G25. Interesting how close all NW Europeans are whether they be Bell Beakers or Germanic populations.

https://i.imgur.com/4BMyMEg.png

[Grace O'Malley]

Take this with a pinch of salt but if you see what populations the Icelandic is broken down to using G25 this is the result. It's not really accurate because they aren't 50% Irish but it is interesting what populations are selected.

https://i.imgur.com/nWFFAHM.png

[Davystayn]

Yeah but hardly enough to explain the similarity, which is overrated anyway. On higher Ks, North Dutch and Frisians are closest to Scandinavians. Here are some North Dutch-Frisian people on G25:


Distance to: Elske_scaled
0.02601913 Norwegian
0.02857167 Irish
0.02952400 Dutch
0.02978586 Danish
0.03012991 Shetlandic
0.03045890 Scottish
0.03135348 Icelandic
0.03139393 English
0.03218004 Welsh
0.03273522 Orcadian
0.03432729 Swedish
0.03468523 English_Cornwall
0.03497939 French_Brittany
0.03946775 German
0.04103909 Afrikaner
0.04383285 Belgian
0.04443650 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04881676 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04921976 French_Nord
0.04955032 French_Paris
0.05114260 Austrian
0.05200312 French_Alsace
0.05358046 German_East
0.05384956 Swiss_German
0.05519136 Czech

Distance to: Finn
0.01816289 Danish
0.02150866 Icelandic
0.02253556 Swedish
0.02486450 Norwegian
0.02601398 Dutch
0.02636507 English
0.02638797 Orcadian
0.02656486 Scottish
0.02680023 Welsh
0.02769104 Irish
0.02811302 Shetlandic
0.02847889 English_Cornwall
0.03168388 German
0.03328738 French_Brittany
0.03689929 German_East
0.03873207 Afrikaner
0.04104029 Czech
0.04425250 Belgian
0.04532301 Austrian
0.04569097 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04577286 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04739275 French_Nord
0.04997627 French_Alsace
0.05006322 French_Paris
0.05058373 Hungarian

Distance to: FinnDad
0.01516916 Danish
0.01726704 Dutch
0.01808711 English
0.01954581 Scottish
0.01963098 Welsh
0.02014322 English_Cornwall
0.02047578 Orcadian
0.02060580 Icelandic
0.02212728 Irish
0.02328750 Shetlandic
0.02339186 Swedish
0.02450106 German
0.02473374 Norwegian
0.02564631 French_Brittany
0.03028941 Afrikaner
0.03312406 German_East
0.03481989 Belgian
0.03802218 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03829989 Austrian
0.03859592 French_Nord
0.03869770 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04020081 Czech
0.04075138 French_Alsace
0.04149116 French_Paris
0.04334578 Swiss_German

Distance to: FinnMom
0.02045044 Danish
0.02157118 Icelandic
0.02304698 Norwegian
0.02352380 Swedish
0.02499060 Welsh
0.02539392 English
0.02540180 Orcadian
0.02607665 Scottish
0.02644645 Dutch
0.02764412 English_Cornwall
0.02776021 Irish
0.02925107 German
0.02950089 Shetlandic
0.03071308 French_Brittany
0.03677141 German_East
0.03759707 Afrikaner
0.03938699 Czech
0.04134780 Belgian
0.04166694 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.04186753 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04254301 Austrian
0.04363904 French_Nord
0.04629258 French_Paris
0.04630690 French_Alsace
0.04821435 Hungarian

Interesting how low Germany is in these results, despite being close, below Brittany, Cornwall and Ireland respectively.

Is it due to difficulties traversing the low-lying landscape and waterways etc making Frisia fairly cut off, but accessible from the sea? (hence closeness to Danish results

[gixajo]

Here's a graphic from the study on Iceland showing some ancient genomes. Most of them have admixture. I have read the study and it used to be freely available but doesn't appear accessible anymore.

g]

It´s a pity we have not DAV-A8 and KNS-A1 samples in G25 (at least labelled as such), one is practically 100% "Norse" and the other one 100% "Gaelic" and we could do a good model with them.

[Grace O'Malley]

It´s a pity we have not DAV-A8 and KNS-A1 samples in G25 (at least labelled as such), one is practically 100% "Norse" and the other one 100% "Gaelic" and we could do a good model with them.

Yes it would be great to have them. From memory I think Davidski said they were a lower quality but I could be wrong.

[Token]

Interesting how low Germany is in these results, despite being close, below Brittany, Cornwall and Ireland respectively.

Is it due to difficulties traversing the low-lying landscape and waterways etc making Frisia fairly cut off, but accessible from the sea? (hence closeness to Danish results

I'd say the difference has more to do with Germanics expanding into a largely uninhabited place in the case of Frisia, but into a place densely settled by Celts in the case of Germany, plus later Slavic expansions pushing Germans into the central European sphere. Frisians are still very similar to the original Anglo-Saxons and early Germanics in general.

[gixajo]

Yes it would be great to have them. From memory I think Davidski said they were a lower quality but I could be wrong.

And having the original references used as "Norse" and "Gaelic" components with which they were modelled would be even better.

[Grace O'Malley]

Interesting how low Germany is in these results, despite being close, below Brittany, Cornwall and Ireland respectively.

Is it due to difficulties traversing the low-lying landscape and waterways etc making Frisia fairly cut off, but accessible from the sea? (hence closeness to Danish results

All the NW Europeans are very close distance wise whether they be the "Celts" or the "Germanics". :) This study due out soon should be very interesting.

Large-Scale Migration into Southern Britain During the Middle to Late Bronze Age
HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL

Present-day populations from England and Wales harbour more ancestry derived from Early European Farmers (EEF) than did people of the Early Bronze Age. To study how this occurred, we generated genome-wide data from 803 individuals, almost all from the Middle to Late Bronze Age and the Iron Age, increasing data in this period from Britain by 12-fold, and from Western and Central Europe by more than two-fold. Between 1000-875 BCE, EEF ancestry increased in southern Britain (England and Wales) but not in northern Britain (Scotland), due to incorporation into the population of a stream of migrants who arrived at this time and in previous centuries and who were genetically most similar to ancient individuals from France. These migrants cumulatively contributed about half the ancestry of Iron Age people of England and Wales, thereby documenting a previously unknown demographic process that is a plausible vector for the spread of early Celtic languages into Britain. These patterns are part of a broader trend of EEF ancestry proportions becoming more similar across Central and Western Europe in the Middle to Late Bronze Age, coincident with intensification of cultural exchange and highlighting this period as a peak of interaction and mobility. We find no evidence of a comparable rate of migration into Britain in the Iron Age. The distinct genetic trajectories of Britain and continental Europe in the Iron Age are also exemplified by the fact that the allele conferring lactase persistence rose to ~50% frequency in Britain by this time whereas it was only ~7% in Central Europe and underwent a comparable rise in frequency only a millennium later, a pattern that could only occur if there were qualitative differences in how dairy products were used in Britain and in Central Europe.

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB47891

[Davystayn]

Dp

[DontFxxkWithWendy]

This is my G25. Interesting how close all NW Europeans are whether they be Bell Beakers or Germanic populations.

https://i.imgur.com/4BMyMEg.png

That’s super cool! I’m ⅛ Irish and can often get around that when modeling G25. I tend to get a better fit with individual samples. Are you comfortable with sharing your coordinates?

[Grace O'Malley]

That’s super cool! I’m ⅛ Irish and can often get around that when modeling G25. I tend to get a better fit with individual samples. Are you comfortable with sharing your coordinates?

No it doesn't bother me. I've had loads of models done from very helpful people. I've also had maps done by some very talented people also.


Grace_scaled,0.138864,0.136081,0.064488,0.052003,0 .036314,0.017291,0.001645,0.006231,0.004909,-0.00328,-0.009094,0.004646,-0.011298,-0.009771,0.029994,0.005701,-0.007041,-0.004434,0.000377,0.007879,0.007112,0.007296,-0.005793,0.010845,-0.000479

Grace_unscaled,0.0122,0.0134,0.0171,0.0161,0.0118, 0.0062,0.0007,0.0027,0.0024,-0.0018,-0.0056,0.0031,-0.0076,-0.0071,0.0221,0.0043,-0.0054,-0.0035,0.0003,0.0063,0.0057,0.0059,-0.0047,0.009,-0.0004

[J. Ketch]

Take this with a pinch of salt but if you see what populations the Icelandic is broken down to using G25 this is the result. It's not really accurate because they aren't 50% Irish but it is interesting what populations are selected.

https://i.imgur.com/nWFFAHM.png
On the superior K13 updated:

Target: Icelandic
Distance: 0.5870% / 0.58702424 | ADC: 0.25x RC
59.1 Norwegian
40.1 Scottish_Gaidhealtachd
0.5 Udmurt
0.3 Dargin

After removing 'Gaidhealtachd'

Target: Icelandic
Distance: 0.5716% / 0.57155580 | ADC: 0.25x RC
64.0 Norwegian
29.1 Irish_Connacht
6.1 Dutch_North
0.8 Lak

[J. Ketch]

Target: Dutch_North
Distance: 0.5127% / 0.51269529 | ADC: 0.25x RC
57.7 Dutch_Central
30.0 Norway_South_Central
7.8 Orcadian
4.0 Norwegian
0.5 Icelandic

Removing Dutch Central

Target: Dutch_North
Distance: 0.5948% / 0.59475182 | ADC: 0.25x RC
50.9 Dutch
40.7 Norway_South_Central
8.4 West_Scottish

Removing Dutch

Target: Dutch_North
Distance: 0.5264% / 0.52635715 | ADC: 0.25x RC
54.3 Norway_South_Central
43.9 Orcadian
1.8 Yemenite_Jewish

(ignore the Yemenite Jewish)

[Grace O'Malley]

On the superior K13 updated:

Target: Icelandic
Distance: 0.5870% / 0.58702424 | ADC: 0.25x RC
59.1 Norwegian
40.1 Scottish_Gaidhealtachd
0.5 Udmurt
0.3 Dargin

After removing 'Gaidhealtachd'

Target: Icelandic
Distance: 0.5716% / 0.57155580 | ADC: 0.25x RC
64.0 Norwegian
29.1 Irish_Connacht
6.1 Dutch_North
0.8 Lak

That is pretty good but on the superior K13 it models me like this so I think the G25 is better for me at any rate.

https://i.imgur.com/4itKAIn.png

https://i.imgur.com/n1lmAcw.png

Both G25 and K13 are not bad as they will pick an Isles pop and Scandinavian pop even if they don't get the exact population correct.

With distance added.

https://i.imgur.com/0IHOwOa.png

[J. Ketch]

That is pretty good but on the superior K13 it models me like this so I think the G25 is better for me at any rate.

https://i.imgur.com/4itKAIn.png

https://i.imgur.com/n1lmAcw.png

Both G25 and K13 are not bad as they will pick an Isles pop and Scandinavian pop even if they don't get the exact population correct.
It's more important for populations to get accurate scores than individuals, who are highly variable (even between family).

G25 averages are poor for both my parents anyway. Closer to Danish than English for my mother, and closer to Icelandic than Irish for my father. Not much rhyme or reason to the distances in G25.

Distance to: CreodaMum_scaled
0.01886201 Welsh
0.02002575 Dutch
0.02098823 Danish
0.02105966 Scottish
0.02114182 English
0.02167288 Orcadian
0.02183018 Norwegian
0.02218829 Shetlandic
0.02226220 Irish
0.02288413 French_Brittany
0.02406696 English_Cornwall
0.02451632 German
0.02504237 Icelandic
0.02747338 Swedish
0.02953259 Afrikaner
0.03180125 Belgian
0.03353733 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03544758 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03566017 French_Nord
0.03765100 Austrian

Target: CreodaMum_scaled
Distance: 1.5412% / 0.01541166 | ADC: 0.25x RC
47.8 Welsh
34.6 Norwegian
6.2 Spanish_Soria
5.8 Slovakian
3.4 Cossack_Kuban
2.2 Darginian

Distance to: CreodaDad_scaled
0.02309102 Orcadian
0.02408025 Icelandic
0.02433498 Scottish
0.02581840 Irish
0.02731585 English_Cornwall
0.02732138 English
0.02740922 Danish
0.02929440 Welsh
0.02977876 Shetlandic
0.03036280 Dutch
0.03200460 Norwegian
0.03236241 Swedish
0.03381089 French_Brittany
0.03827258 German
0.04038099 Afrikaner
0.04068452 German_East
0.04507231 Belgian
0.04534435 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04829674 French_Nord
0.04995815 French_Pas-de-Calais


Target: CreodaDad_scaled
Distance: 2.1799% / 0.02179911 | ADC: 0.25x RC
67.0 Orcadian
26.0 Icelandic
7.0 Polish_Kashubian

[Hialt]

At the founding of Iceland it was more 50/50 but now it is 30 Gaelic/70 Scandinavian. I've heard it theorised that this was due to a higher survival rate for the Scandinavians in comparison to the Gaelic thralls although I think the slave thing is a bit overcooked as a lot of the people that populated Iceland originally from the Scottish Islands and the Irish colonies were already Gael Gall. There was undoubtedly some thralls but many Vikings were already intermarried into Irish and Scottish clans/dynasties. Also there was direct colonisation for a longer period from Scandinavians and less came from the Hiberno and Scottish colonies so the Scandinavian input increased. The latest Icelandic study put the figure at 30% Gaelic/70% Scandinavian for the modern Icelander.




https://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/dna-study-reveals-fate-of-irish-women-taken-by-vikings-as-slaves-to-iceland-1.3521206


I never "thought to think" that this was a way of looking at Scandinavian genetic influence in the "Celtic lands," I tended to think of them entering those gene pools from "raiding adventures," through the peasantry, etc, leaving behind poor maidens with white-blonde offspring in their wake.

[Grace O'Malley]

It's more important for populations to get accurate scores than individuals, who are highly variable (even between family).

G25 averages are poor for both my parents anyway. Closer to Danish than English for my mother, and closer to Icelandic than Irish for my father. Not much rhyme or reason to the distances in G25.

Distance to: CreodaMum_scaled
0.01886201 Welsh
0.02002575 Dutch
0.02098823 Danish
0.02105966 Scottish
0.02114182 English
0.02167288 Orcadian
0.02183018 Norwegian
0.02218829 Shetlandic
0.02226220 Irish
0.02288413 French_Brittany
0.02406696 English_Cornwall
0.02451632 German
0.02504237 Icelandic
0.02747338 Swedish
0.02953259 Afrikaner
0.03180125 Belgian
0.03353733 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.03544758 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03566017 French_Nord
0.03765100 Austrian

Target: CreodaMum_scaled
Distance: 1.5412% / 0.01541166 | ADC: 0.25x RC
47.8 Welsh
34.6 Norwegian
6.2 Spanish_Soria
5.8 Slovakian
3.4 Cossack_Kuban
2.2 Darginian

Distance to: CreodaDad_scaled
0.02309102 Orcadian
0.02408025 Icelandic
0.02433498 Scottish
0.02581840 Irish
0.02731585 English_Cornwall
0.02732138 English
0.02740922 Danish
0.02929440 Welsh
0.02977876 Shetlandic
0.03036280 Dutch
0.03200460 Norwegian
0.03236241 Swedish
0.03381089 French_Brittany
0.03827258 German
0.04038099 Afrikaner
0.04068452 German_East
0.04507231 Belgian
0.04534435 French_Seine-Maritime
0.04829674 French_Nord
0.04995815 French_Pas-de-Calais


Target: CreodaDad_scaled
Distance: 2.1799% / 0.02179911 | ADC: 0.25x RC
67.0 Orcadian
26.0 Icelandic
7.0 Polish_Kashubian

All of these are dependent on the samples and with the G25 the amount of English samples are relative low whereas the Irish samples are quite large. If there was larger samples for some of these populations it would cover more variation within those populations. I agree that you have to measure against larger samples so populations are more representative than individuals but on G25 some population amounts are quite small. With the added populations that people have collected and uploaded on Vahaduo Gedmatch it is most probably a better tool for looking at groups but I do still like using the G25 as from my understanding they are all added from scientific studies.

[Grace O'Malley]

I never "thought to think" that this was a way of looking at Scandinavian genetic influence in the "Celtic lands," I tended to think of them entering those gene pools from "raiding adventures," through the peasantry, etc, leaving behind poor maidens with white-blonde offspring in their wake.

There were many marriages to increase alliances. That happened a lot in the past. Knowing a bit about Irish history a lot of the Vikings married into some of the dynastic Irish clans.

An interesting woman in Irish history is Gormflaith ingen Murchada O'Faelain.

Daughter of Murchad mac Finn O'Fáeláin, King of Leinster
Wife of Máel Sechnaill II, High King of Ireland; Brian Boru, High king of Ireland and Olaf Sithricsson, King of Dublin & York
Mother of Conchobhar mac Mael Sechnaill, King of Tara; Donnchad, King of Munster; Sigtrygg "Silkbeard" Olafsson, King of Dublin & York; Gyda of Dublin; Harald mac Amlaíb of Dublin and 3 others
Sister of Máel Mórda mac Murchada O'Fáeláin and Braen

Gormflaith was born in Naas, County Kildare, Ireland, around AD 960. She was the daughter of Murchad mac Find, King of Leinster, sister of his successor, Mael Mórdha mac Murchada, and widow of Olaf Cuaran, the Viking king of Dublin and York. The main source of her life history is the Cogadh Gaedhil re Gallaibh. She was also the mother of King Sigtrygg Silkbeard of Dublin.

https://www.geni.com/people/Gormflaith-O-Faelain/6000000002043186310

There's plenty of those type marriages in Irish history.

There's also a lot about the Irish in the Icelandic Sagas and a number of Icelandic personal names are of Gaelic origin, including Njáll, Brjánn, Kjartan and Kormákur (from Niall, Brian, Muircheartach and Cormac).

https://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/drafts/irish-norse.html

So obviously the Gaelic Thrall is a bit simplistic. :) There was thralls of course but there were many families that were of mixed origin and this was through marriage.

[J. Ketch]

All of these are dependent on the samples and with the G25 the amount of English samples are relative low whereas the Irish samples are quite large. If there was larger samples for some of these populations it would cover more variation within those populations. I agree that you have to measure against larger samples so populations are more representative than individuals but on G25 some population amounts are quite small. With the added populations that people have collected and uploaded on Vahaduo Gedmatch it is most probably a better tool for looking at groups but I do still like using the G25 as from my understanding they are all added from scientific studies.
Until there is a decent amount of samples for each population (which Davidski seems in no hurry to do), G25 modern averages are kind of worthless IMO. For example Danish are apparently closer to Scottish than to Norwegians, and Norwegians are closer to Scottish/Irish than to Dutch/Swedes :confused: And many other inaccuracies.

Distance to: Danish
0.01154781 Dutch
0.01176037 Icelandic
0.01402752 Scottish
0.01423567 Swedish
0.01461295 Orcadian
0.01511600 Norwegian
0.01609290 Shetlandic
0.01630074 English
0.01671907 Welsh
0.01697560 Irish

Distance to: Norwegian
0.01438852 Icelandic
0.01511600 Danish
0.01631890 Shetlandic
0.01734232 Scottish
0.01742603 Dutch
0.01757997 Irish
0.01856722 Swedish
0.01914219 Orcadian
0.02112956 English
0.02116152 Welsh

[Grace O'Malley]

Until there is a decent amount of samples for each population (which Davidski seems in no hurry to do), G25 modern averages are kind of worthless IMO. For example Danish are apparently closer to Scottish than to Norwegians, and Norwegians are closer to Scottish/Irish than to Dutch/Swedes :confused: And many other inaccuracies.

Distance to: Danish
0.01154781 Dutch
0.01176037 Icelandic
0.01402752 Scottish
0.01423567 Swedish
0.01461295 Orcadian
0.01511600 Norwegian
0.01609290 Shetlandic
0.01630074 English
0.01671907 Welsh
0.01697560 Irish

Distance to: Norwegian
0.01438852 Icelandic
0.01511600 Danish
0.01631890 Shetlandic
0.01734232 Scottish
0.01742603 Dutch
0.01757997 Irish
0.01856722 Swedish
0.01914219 Orcadian
0.02112956 English
0.02116152 Welsh

Yes the lack of samples are the issue. I think he isn't that fussed about adding to the modern samples. On the odd occasion I've noticed there are more moderns added but it is obvious it isn't a priority for him as he said he's more interesting in the ancient samples.

[Leto]

Until there is a decent amount of samples for each population (which Davidski seems in no hurry to do), G25 modern averages are kind of worthless IMO. For example Danish are apparently closer to Scottish than to Norwegians, and Norwegians are closer to Scottish/Irish than to Dutch/Swedes :confused: And many other inaccuracies.

There will never be as many individual samples for G25 as there are on GEDmatch. G25 is still almost unknown outside sites like TA, Anthrogenica, perhaps some Subreddits and stuff like that. And it's not free, you need to email your data to some guy and pay him for that.

[J. Ketch]

There will never be as many individual samples for G25 as there are on GEDmatch. G25 is still almost unknown outside sites like TA, Anthrogenica, perhaps some Subreddits and stuff like that. And it's not free, you need to email your data to some guy and pay him for that.
And what's more, said guy is a bloody Australian! Imagine trusting one of them :picard1:

[Leto]

And what's more, said guy is a bloody Australian! Imagine trusting one of them :picard1:
Haha, I think he identifies as Polish and R1a. Probably was even born in Poland and moved over there as a child.

[Italicus]

Very interesting that Iceland is around 33 to 30 percent Gael and Briton. The opposite of East Anglia which is a third Anglo Saxon and the rest Celtic.

[J. Ketch]

Very interesting that Iceland is around 33 to 30 percent Gael and Briton. The opposite of East Anglia which is a third Anglo Saxon and the rest Celtic.
I'd say more like 40% Anglo-Saxon+Danish for East Anglia (and SE England/East Midlands). Plus some Roman & Norman admix, meaning the Celtic Briton blood might not be more than 50% in parts.

[Italicus]

I'd say more like 40% Anglo-Saxon+Danish for East Anglia (and SE England/East Midlands). Plus some Roman & Norman admix, meaning the Celtic Briton blood might not be more than 50% in parts.

The Midlands and the Southeast have the same amount of Germanic blood as East Anglia? I don't know about that, I thought they were around 30 percent tops.

[Grace O'Malley]

Very interesting that Iceland is around 33 to 30 percent Gael and Briton. The opposite of East Anglia which is a third Anglo Saxon and the rest Celtic.

The Insular Celtic input appears to be Gaelic and not Briton. I think these Vikings had more interaction with the Gaelic Viking kingdoms and not so much Danelaw areas. It's more the Norse Vikings that were involved in the Irish Sea area and these were the ones that started up Dublin, Wexford, Limerick etc and the Isle of Man, Hebrides, Orkney, Shetland and the other Scottish isles. That appears to be backed up by genetic studies as well. I always add the caveat that newer studies might change this. The Viking genetic study appears to back this up as well because the Viking genomes that they looked at in Ireland were Norwegian-like and the ones in England Danish-like. Things can always change with more studies and more genomes. The Icelandic sagas also mentions quite a bit about the Irish and the Scottish islands. This one for example.

https://erenow.net/ww/warsoftheirishkings/14.php

It would be great if this sort of thing will be clarified in the future.

[Ruggery]

There were many marriages to increase alliances. That happened a lot in the past. Knowing a bit about Irish history a lot of the Vikings married into some of the dynastic Irish clans.

An interesting woman in Irish history is Gormflaith ingen Murchada O'Faelain.

Daughter of Murchad mac Finn O'Fáeláin, King of Leinster
Wife of Máel Sechnaill II, High King of Ireland; Brian Boru, High king of Ireland and Olaf Sithricsson, King of Dublin & York
Mother of Conchobhar mac Mael Sechnaill, King of Tara; Donnchad, King of Munster; Sigtrygg "Silkbeard" Olafsson, King of Dublin & York; Gyda of Dublin; Harald mac Amlaíb of Dublin and 3 others
Sister of Máel Mórda mac Murchada O'Fáeláin and Braen

Gormflaith was born in Naas, County Kildare, Ireland, around AD 960. She was the daughter of Murchad mac Find, King of Leinster, sister of his successor, Mael Mórdha mac Murchada, and widow of Olaf Cuaran, the Viking king of Dublin and York. The main source of her life history is the Cogadh Gaedhil re Gallaibh. She was also the mother of King Sigtrygg Silkbeard of Dublin.

https://www.geni.com/people/Gormflaith-O-Faelain/6000000002043186310

There's plenty of those type marriages in Irish history.

There's also a lot about the Irish in the Icelandic Sagas and a number of Icelandic personal names are of Gaelic origin, including Njáll, Brjánn, Kjartan and Kormákur (from Niall, Brian, Muircheartach and Cormac).

https://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/names/drafts/irish-norse.html

So obviously the Gaelic Thrall is a bit simplistic. :) There was thralls of course but there were many families that were of mixed origin and this was through marriage.

I also imagine that the rapes also played a role.
Not so common was rape in Viking invasions?

[JamesBond007]

Very interesting that Iceland is around 33 to 30 percent Gael and Briton. The opposite of East Anglia which is a third Anglo Saxon and the rest Celtic.

Sorry, but It seems to me that that Gael and Briton are not synonymous. I know, that Britonnic can be modeled with England_IA (English Iron Age) and I don't think there is an equivalent ancient Gaelic samples on G25. However, only tangenitally related I can model my ancestry using the ancient G25 samples thusly :

Target: KevinG_scaled
Distance: 1.9624% / 0.01962356
42.8 England_IA (Britonnic Celtic)
32.0 ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian (Icelandic Viking pre Christian era)
25.2 SVK_Poprad_MA (Deutschendorf continental Germanic invader of Slovakia)

Icelandic is not to be found in my top 10 G25 results (yes, I am aware of Creoda's critique of G25)

Distance to: Kevin_scaled
0.02865262 Dutch
0.02966312 Norwegian
0.03097093 Welsh
0.03119617 Irish
0.03153596 Scottish
0.03173767 English
0.03211816 Danish
0.03264251 Orcadian
0.03323573 French_Brittany
0.03424261 English_Cornwall

And I think the level of Celtic ancestry in the Low Countries is somewhat higher than most people realize. However, we really just have Halstatt_Bylanny and England _IA available although other people in this thread were talking about a pure Gaelic sample but that Davidski said it was of low quality so we are unlikely to see it in G25.


ISL_Viking_Age_Early_Christian,0.131466,0.127957,0 .069956,0.049742,0.0423155,0.017431,0.002115,0.007 038,0.0024545,0.003189,0.0011365,0.0027725,-0.0139,-0.0152075,0.0168975,0.007425,0.0018905,0.006461,0. 0056565,-0.002251,0.0056775,0.00643,0.0094285,0.0101215,-0.0069455

ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian,0.1281142,0.1294236,0 .0681749,0.0618366,0.0366562,0.0195534,0.0069459,0 .0088458,0.0002728,-0.0021463,-0.0048718,0.009608,-0.0101914,-0.0155362,0.0242939,0.0120656,0.0019703,0.0065033, 0.002947,0.0051831,0.0056566,0.004053,0.0024102,0. 0136563,0.0015302

Distance to: ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
0.00000000 ICELAND_VIKING
0.01582493 ENGLAND_SAXON
0.02256418 ENGLAND_CELTIC
0.02916191 SWEDEN_VIKING
0.03172656 GERMANY_MEDIEVAL
0.03645599 SLOVAKIA_GERMANIC_MEDIEVAL
0.05211307 ITALY_LONGOBARD
0.05604736 SPAIN_VISIGOTH_MEDIEVAL
0.06663658 HUNGARY_MEDIEVAL_SLAV
0.06872650 HUNGARY_MEDIEVAL

Distance to: ISL_Viking_Age_Early_Christian
0.02358727 ENGLAND_CELTIC
0.02517901 ICELAND_VIKING
0.02594187 ENGLAND_SAXON
0.03130739 GERMANY_MEDIEVAL
0.03374583 SLOVAKIA_GERMANIC_MEDIEVAL
0.03524420 SWEDEN_VIKING
0.04401845 ITALY_LONGOBARD
0.04715395 SPAIN_VISIGOTH_MEDIEVAL
0.06125622 HUNGARY_MEDIEVAL
0.06339276 HUNGARY_MEDIEVAL_SLAV

https://g25vahaduo.genetics.ovh/Nicola-medieval.htm

Iceland_Viking sample removed :

Target: ISL_Viking_Age_Pre_Christian
Distance: 1.3645% / 0.01364473
74.6 ENGLAND_SAXON
13.0 ENGLAND_CELTIC
10.2 SWEDEN_VIKING
2.2 RUSSIA_RUS


Target: ISL_Viking_Age_Early_Christian
Distance: 1.9865% / 0.01986547
51.0 ICELAND_VIKING
22.2 ENGLAND_CELTIC
10.8 ITALY_LONGOBARD
6.6 RUSSIA_SLAV
5.4 SLOVAKIA_GERMANIC_MEDIEVAL
3.6 SPAIN_VISIGOTH_MEDIEVAL
0.4 RUSSIA_BAJKAL_MEDIEVAL

[TheMaestro]

Wouldn't say it's high. They look Germanic much more.

[J. Ketch]

The Midlands and the Southeast have the same amount of Germanic blood as East Anglia? I don't know about that, I thought they were around 30 percent tops.
Maybe not as much but only marginally less. East Anglia always clusters with Southeast & Central England, so they shouldn't differ substantially in ancestry.
https://i.postimg.cc/QVGFLYG7/v2web-genetics-map.jpg

The jury is still out on percentages but I think people tend to lowball the Germanic influence for some reason, as just one example English have more shared drift with Scandinavians than with the Welsh
https://i.postimg.cc/4NnTPXcg/FST-2.jpg

More with Danish than with Irish
https://i.postimg.cc/7YrgMZdC/Dsucif-TXg-AEGz1a.jpg

Halfway between Celtic Britons and Anglo-Saxons here (Early Anglo-Saxon English were c.80% Germanic according to a new study)
https://i.postimg.cc/T398FLzt/iron-age.jpg
From Cassidy:

In contrast to the gentle gradient of ancient Irish variation, British and continental individuals show a more punctuated distribution along PC2 (Fig. 4.6B-C), forming two clear clusters at both ends of modern British variation. Anglo-Saxons fall with southeastern English variation in this and all other PCs considered, alongside a Nordic Iron Age sample, reflecting the large genetic contribution of Germanic migrations to this part of the island (Leslie et al. 2015; Schiffels et al. 2016). Iron Age Britons comprise another tight grouping at the opposite end of British variation, emphasising the admixed nature of the modern population

42% Ancient Scandinavian-like admix in England implied in this chart from the Viking paper
https://i.postimg.cc/9fv9JwGy/Got-VW-admixture-estimates.png

My Midlands-born mother's placing in Davidski's drift-sensitive Celtic vs Germanic PCA (in his words she is about halfway between Celtic Britons and Anglo-Saxons)
https://i.postimg.cc/BnZX180b/ancient-plot-Copy.png
Unreliable but her MyHeritage score indicates something similar
https://i.postimg.cc/15GCGQrS/COPY2.jpg

Regarding the Midlands specifically, from an old paper on Anglo-Saxon Apartheid:

More recently, studies of Y-chromosome variation have indicated substantial migration of Anglo-Saxon men into Central England. Weale et al. (2002) found a striking similarity in the distribution of Y-chromosome haplotypes in Central England and Friesland, but a dissimilarity between Central England and North Wales. Using population-genetic models that incorporated both continuous gene flow and mass migration, they concluded that their data is best explained by a massive migration of Anglo-Saxon men into Central England, but not into North Wales, contributing 50–100% to the male population at that time. Capelli et al. (2003) examined the distribution of Y-chromosomes throughout the British Isles as well as in southern Denmark, northern Germany and Norway. Using an likelihood-based admixture approach (Chikhi et al. 2001) they found a more heterogeneous pattern of Continental input into the English gene pool. However, using southern Danish and northern German populations as the descendants of putative Anglo-Saxon source populations, their median estimates for Continental introgression into England ranged between 24.4 and 72.5% (mean 54.1%).

[Italicus]

Those are some very curious results for your mother, do you have distant Slavic and South European heritage?

[J. Ketch]

Those are some very curious results for your mother, do you have distant Slavic and South European heritage?
No, but I think such odd percentages are common on MH. The more striking thing is that Insular Celts (Irish at least) tend to get 90-100% Irish/Scottish/Welsh.

[Roy]

I also imagine that the rapes also played a role.
Not so common was rape in Viking invasions?

Not as common as some would like to imagine. Probably a very tiny part can be attributed to that.

[Grace O'Malley]

Wouldn't say it's high. They look Germanic much more.

30% so a reasonable amount. What people look like is very subjective and not very scientific. There are threads on here about how Icelanders must have Inuit blood because they think Bjork looks Asian. That isn't borne out by genetics though.

[Grace O'Malley]

No, but I think such odd percentages are common on MH. The more striking thing is that Insular Celts (Irish at least) tend to get 90-100% Irish/Scottish/Welsh.

Modern tests in commercial companies is not going to give accurate results about ancient admixture because it is based on people now. Getting 100% of an ethnicity is common for the Irish because most Irish will match an Irish panel. The English are harder to match to an English panel because there are differences within England itself and also it is obvious that especially Southeast England has had much more genetic input from their neighbours which is why this new study coming out should be very enlightening and we should have the samples on the G25. Anyway England most probably should be split up for tests. I don't think modern tests can tell you ancient admixture.

[J. Ketch]

Modern tests in commercial companies is not going to give accurate results about ancient admixture because it is based on people now. Getting 100% of an ethnicity is common for the Irish because most Irish will match an Irish panel. The English are harder to match to an English panel because there are differences within England itself and also it is obvious that especially Southeast England has had much more genetic input from their neighbours which is why this new study coming out should be very enlightening and we should have the samples on the G25. Anyway England most probably should be split up for tests. I don't think modern tests can tell you ancient admixture.
Obviously they don't, but they can inadvertently indicate it by showing modern affinities against each other. In my mother's case, 45% affinity to Insular Celts vs over 50% affinity to continentals. If they took away an 'English' category from commercial tests and stopped arbitrarily grouping the British Isles together, this would be common.

https://permalinks.23andme.com/you/img/population_pages/british_irish/britishirish_edu7_2x.png

[Purple Panther]

Modern tests in commercial companies is not going to give accurate results about ancient admixture because it is based on people now. Getting 100% of an ethnicity is common for the Irish because most Irish will match an Irish panel. The English are harder to match to an English panel because there are differences within England itself and also it is obvious that especially Southeast England has had much more genetic input from their neighbours which is why this new study coming out should be very enlightening and we should have the samples on the G25. Anyway England most probably should be split up for tests. I don't think modern tests can tell you ancient admixture.

That's a great idea about separation since there are major differences between the eastern fringes and the western fringes of England. It's like comparing corned beef and roast beef.

[Coastal Elite]

I also imagine that the rapes also played a role.
Not so common was rape in Viking invasions?

Let's keep it clean, my Grandma is lurking on TA

[J. Ketch]

30% so a reasonable amount. What people look like is very subjective and not very scientific. There are threads on here about how Icelanders must have Inuit blood because they think Bjork looks Asian. That isn't borne out by genetics though.
And people are biased on forums like these, based on media/stereotypes. Just like how people on here often say Anglo-Celtic Aussies are more Germanic than they actually are or must come mostly from Eastern England, when they're obviously more 'Celtic' shifted than the English/UK average, as shown by the table I posted before.
https://i.postimg.cc/7YrgMZdC/Dsucif-TXg-AEGz1a.jpg

Looking at group photos of Icelanders, 30% Irish admix is not hard to believe. It should be remembered that according to the Viking paper some Norwegians have a decent chunk of Insular Celt-like blood too, up to 25% in this table. Modern populations are not ideal reference points for ancient populations, as practically all modern NW Europeans are Celto-Germanic mixed, plus other stuff.
https://i.postimg.cc/9fv9JwGy/Got-VW-admixture-estimates.png

[RenaRyuguu]

Idk I sense 20%