View Full Version : Are Ashkenazis as really Levantine as they say they are?
Hamilcar
11-04-2021, 06:06 PM
However Jews are not Europeans. I can believe this Moor is saying large masses of people disliked Jews for "political reasons" and not for being different by religion and custom in a way no indigenous European group was.:picard1:
so religion define who's european and who isn't ? :picard1:
TheForeigner
11-04-2021, 06:07 PM
true my people are now indigenous to most of western europe.
You came as beggars, not as conquerors. You are neither indigenous, nor useful for anyone other than the politician traitors who let you in.
true my people are now indigenous to most of western europe.
Talk when you establish a state there, like Jews did in Israel. Hehehe
TheForeigner
11-04-2021, 06:09 PM
so religion define who's european and who isn't ? :picard1:
It never was just religion, but frankly it does. Muslims are not real Europeans. Not even Bosniaks or most Albos. They are white Muslims.
Nassbean, can't you just leave? You are fucking unbearable. Why do they even allow you to post, 'cause your previous account was banned for trolling. And this fucking thread should be closed, I'm going to message Loki.
Turul Karom
11-04-2021, 06:11 PM
true my people are now indigenous to most of western europe.
What is your ethnic group? I don't think we've spoken.
Hamilcar
11-04-2021, 06:12 PM
You came as beggars, not as conquerors. You are neither indigenous, nor useful for anyone other than the politician traitors who let you in.
beggars ? You should say this to the romani beggars you send us constantly. My grandparents and parents worked hard like decent citizens. We're indigenous because we decide so and because no one is able to get us out from here. The next big step would be the conquest of eastern europe through demography.
Hamilcar
11-04-2021, 06:13 PM
What is your ethnic group? I don't think we've spoken.
tengri biz menen
Christianity appeared in the middle east and most of its early fathers were from north africa and the middle east...
It became the sole religion of Europeans and it wasn't even spread by "Middle Easterners". Clovis wasn't Middle Eastern, Augustine of Canterbury wasn't, Mieszko wasn't, Vladimir wasn't. I can go on. On the other hand, there is no Muslim Europeans other than a couple of Ottoman leftovers.
Hamilcar
11-04-2021, 06:15 PM
Talk when you establish a state there, like Jews did in Israel. Hehehe
We're already everywhere in the political sphere of western europe (except the UK) let alone Brussels "hehehe"
beggars ? You should say this to the romani beggars you send us constantly. My grandparents and parents worked hard like decent citizens. We're indigenous because we decide so and because no one is able to get us out from here. The next big step would be the conquest of eastern europe through demography.
You have been reported, Muzzrat.
TheForeigner
11-04-2021, 06:16 PM
beggars ? You should say this to the romani beggars you send us constantly. My grandparents and parents worked hard like decent citizens. We're indigenous because we decide so and because no one is able to get us out from here. The next big step would be the conquest of eastern europe through demography.
Decent citizens are not pigs who come hat in hand and allowed in out of misplaced mercy and then want to make themselves masters of the house. Those are beggars!
Hamilcar
11-04-2021, 06:16 PM
Nassbean, can't you just leave? You are fucking unbearable. Why do they even allow you to post, 'cause your previous account was banned for trolling. And this fucking thread should be closed, I'm going to message Loki.
I'm going to message loki for your constant lies about me being nassbean, he already said he had enough of these constant sock accounts claim.
We're already everywhere in the political sphere of western europe (except the UK) let alone Brussels "hehehe"
Moroccans in Amsterdam are known as drug dealers and thugs, and I guess Maghrebi ghettos around Paris and Brussels prove your influential position in western European society.
Or jail statistics.
Turul Karom
11-04-2021, 06:18 PM
tengri biz menen
LMAO ok
Hamilcar
11-04-2021, 06:20 PM
Decent citizens are not pigs who come hat in hand and allowed in out of misplaced mercy and then want to make themselves masters of the house. Those are beggars!
Masters of the house ? It's natural selection mate, such a decadent society needs a more refreshing traditional wave of people. Like these good old barbarians who took over the roman empire. History repeats itself.
Be ready to welcome us, for Romania we're expecting new waves of north african settlers after 2050.
:D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJXnZmKL1mo&ab_channel=Blockstar
Hamilcar
11-04-2021, 06:23 PM
It became the sole religion of Europeans and it wasn't even spread by "Middle Easterners". Clovis wasn't Middle Eastern, Augustine of Canterbury wasn't, Mieszko wasn't, Vladimir wasn't. I can go on. On the other hand, there is no Muslim Europeans other than a couple of Ottoman leftovers.
Yes it didn't appear first in europe because of the levantine/anatolian diaspora...not even genetic result of imperial rome supports this.
And why do you lie ? Who's this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_of_Canterbury
+ millions of balkanites are muslims that's not a "couple"
TheForeigner
11-04-2021, 06:26 PM
Masters of the house ? It's natural selection mate, such a decadent society needs a more refreshing traditional wave of people. Like these good old barbarians who took over the roman empire. History repeats itself.
Be ready to welcome us, for Romania we're expecting new waves of north african settlers after 2050.
Who will pay you beggars and the other beggars you mentioned their welfare checks, if the savages take over the show? You came as beggars and will die like beggars! Germanic barbarians came sword in hand, not with hand extended begging for money!
Hamilcar
11-04-2021, 06:27 PM
Moroccans in Amsterdam are known as drug dealers and thugs, and I guess Maghrebi ghettos around Paris and Brussels prove your influential position in western European society.
Or jail statistics.
doesn't mean we're not present in the political sphere, see for example in the netherlands :
https://i.imgur.com/YyrQVPr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/VN5AFmA.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/hcqlZZ3.jpg
Yes it didn't appear first in europe because of the levantine/anatolian diaspora...not even genetic result of imperial rome supports this.
And why do you lie ? Who's this : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_of_Canterbury
+ millions of balkanites are muslims that's not a "couple"
A couple of small states with like 2-3 million people each. All converted in the last 500 years or so, many identify as Muslim more because of their ethnicity (Bosniaks), rather than the faith itself.
I like and respect the pre-Muslim Orient, not the modern shithole.
Anyway, I am leaving this shit after reporting it.
That's the thing that always baffled me since I've been on exposed to human population genetics : the fact that Ashkenazi Jews are supposed to be modeled roughly as Half Levantine Half Italian, and end up in terms of phenotype, to look like average Europeans (sometimes some more indeed exotic, but certainly not the majority)
This gap between phenotype and genotype among Ashkenazim has been always suspicious to say the least for me. I do understand phenomenon of "selection" for lighter types in order "to fit in European society", but still, I also do not exclude the possibility that there is an hidden agenda to make Ashkenazim more Levantine than what they really are, in order to give them legitimacy to colonize Palestine, as "indigenous people coming back to their Ancient Israel".
The answer to your riddle is actually more obvious than you'd think: the ancient Israelites were white, like Europeans. This is a fact. And a great chunk of Europeans and colonials are descended from the "lost" tribes of Israel. That is why Jews, who are pure genetically, look similar to Europeans.
happycow
11-04-2021, 07:49 PM
Goodbye nassbean. :(
rothaer
11-04-2021, 07:50 PM
No, I was asking if she thinks it's a good idea. The idea is for them to become citizens of Israel like Israeli Arabs(of Palestinian origin) did or go of their own free will to Arab countries where they will fit in very well. I suspect Christians would generally stay for instance. I know overwhelming majority are Muslims but so are Israeli Arabs who are Palestinians who stayed in Israel and became citizens of it.
The whole thing is not "kosher", but nevertheless the following technical comments:
For these who don't want any of the two alternatives that you mentioned, you will have to do something by force, otherwise all this thing will be without any effect. So you have to force to become citizen or to expel. To my knowledge this is what happened in Israel, at least there is no population left known to me that has no citizenship.
But what is practically much more important is this: Israel itself will never re-do that. Already having done it once is seriously endangering the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. Because the Arab population is reproducing more than the Jewish population does. It can already be imputed when the Arab population with Israeli citizenship will be in majority. What this means in a democracy can be imagined.
This will be the actual reason why Israel makes no try in that direction.
TheForeigner
11-04-2021, 07:58 PM
The whole thing is not "kosher", but nevertheless the following technical comments:
For these who don't want any of the two alternatives that you mentioned, you will have to do something by force, otherwise all this thing will be without any effect. So you have to force to become citizen or to expel. To my knowledge this is what happened in Israel, at least there is no population left known to me that has no citizenship.
But what is practically much more important is this: Israel itself will never re-do that. Already having done it once is seriously endangering the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. Because the Arab population is reproducing more than the Jewish population does. It can already be imputed when the Arab population with Israeli citizenship will be in majority. What this means in a democracy can be imagined.
This will be the actual reason why Israel makes no try in that direction.
Yes, you are right that it would not be a workable idea, simply because 20%+ of the population of Israel is already Arab. To add a few more millions of Arabs as citizens would destroy the Jewish character of the country, so it has to be the two states solution. Buy you're wrong about the higher Arab birth rate. That is old news. Some time ago I read an article by a certain Steve Sailer, from where I learned that Israeli Jewish birth rate has went up and catched up with the Israeli Arab one. There is no longer a possibility of Arabs becoming the majority.
Radimir
11-04-2021, 07:59 PM
RIP Hamilcar. You are in a better place now with brother Ascended/Wadaad, Peace and blessings be upon them both. Today is a sad day :'( and the first in what shall be several days of mourning to come. Rest easy brother.
https://c.tenor.com/h54ZRGdyL0YAAAAd/maryam-yazdani-cry.gif
Meerkat
11-04-2021, 07:59 PM
It's simple you're viewing identity through culture and "traditions" while I view it through genes/blood and phenotypes. And I'm well placed to know which of the two is more meaningfull IRL. Moreover objectively if we look at jewish communities (before Israel) they actually didn't share the same culture (I know it because I've interacted with jews here who told me about the differences between them and moroccan jews) but only religious traditions. From a genetic point of view ashkenazi jews are not similar to ancient jews nor do they plot next to them + their phenotypes in their vast majority don't overlap with what exist in the middle east (this includes communities like samaritans, christian palestinians, etc) and please do not bring cherrypicked examples.
So now based on this tell me where exactly I'm wrong.
But going based on where people plot on an autosomal level and phenotypes is less meaningful, for all peoples are socially constructed. Ashkenazi Jews can actually trace their LINEAGE back to Ancient Jews, and we are genetically 45-65% West Asian. Samaritans and Ashkenazi Jews actually have more similar traditions to each other than Palestinians do with any other Jewish group. If identity were about genes/blood, then African Americans are mostly West African with some white and native American mixed in, which they are genetically, but that's not who they are culturally speaking and that doesn't define who they are.
The reason why Ashkenazim identify as Israelites in the first place has to do with their line of tradition, for it's not like the Ancient Israelites had existed since the beginning of time. There were other people who existed before the Ancient Israelites and later on became Ancient Israelites BECAUSE OF THE PEOPLE WITH WHOM THEY IDENTIFIED. Ashkenazim don't say that they're Aramaeans, for those aren't the people whose traditions we continue to this day. Tribes survive if their traditions and practices survive. A lot of tribes who no longer exist have descendents, but it doesn't matter if they have only passed on their genes and nothing else. Even if Palestinians did have all of their genes from the Ancient Israelites (which they don't), they still only have their genes and not much else.
And like i said, people only talk about Palestinians being Ancient Israelites in order to discredit the Jewish connection to the land. People claim that Palestinians have been there forever, and so why didn't they start trying to revive their Ancient Israelite heritage at some point in history?
rothaer
11-04-2021, 08:00 PM
(...) We're indigenous because we decide so and because no one is able to get us out from here. (...)
Then prepare for a little surprise.
Goodbye nassbean. :(
I bet the fucker will be back after a while. Few banned users genuinely leave TA, instead they keep sneaking back in as illegals.
TheForeigner
11-04-2021, 08:12 PM
Overall, Israel’s government and society have done an impressive job showing that a determined polity can alter fertility rates in its own favor. It was long said that the Jewish state was doomed by the much higher total fertility of Israeli Muslims, who as recently as 2000 were having babies at a rate of 4.57 per lifetime compared to only 2.67 for Israeli Jews. How could anyone possibly close that gap?
Yet by 2011, the Muslim TFR had fallen to 3.51, while the Jewish TFR grew to 2.98.
https://www.takimag.com/article/israels_fertility_policy_bears_fruit_steve_sailer/2/
OK, so not quite parity in TFR, but close enough. That was years ago though. Maybe they're the same now.
rothaer
11-04-2021, 08:17 PM
Yes, you are right that it would not be a workable idea, simply because 20%+ of the population of Israel is already Arab. To add a few more millions of Arabs as citizens would destroy the Jewish character of the country, so it has to be the two states solution. Buy you're wrong about the higher Arab birth rate. That is old news. Some time ago I read an article by a certain Steve Sailer, from where I learned that Israeli Jewish birth rate has went up and catched up with the Israeli Arab one. There is no longer a possibility of Arabs becoming the majority.
Maybe you are right with newer figures that point in another direction. I can not quickly determine that now. However, such a fear and thinking is into Israel. So Israel will avoid to elevate that potential problem. But that you likely do agree to.
Haredi population growing twice as fast as overall Israeli population — report
https://www.timesofisrael.com/haredi-population-growing-twice-as-fast-as-total-israeli-population-report/
They don't even serve in Israeli army, so growth of such pacifist population isn't that useful for Israeli state.
But interesting developments: https://www.timesofisrael.com/ministers-okay-compromise-to-lower-ultra-orthodox-idf-exemption-age/
rothaer
11-04-2021, 08:35 PM
Overall, Israel’s government and society have done an impressive job showing that a determined polity can alter fertility rates in its own favor. It was long said that the Jewish state was doomed by the much higher total fertility of Israeli Muslims, who as recently as 2000 were having babies at a rate of 4.57 per lifetime compared to only 2.67 for Israeli Jews. How could anyone possibly close that gap?
Yet by 2011, the Muslim TFR had fallen to 3.51, while the Jewish TFR grew to 2.98.
https://www.takimag.com/article/israels_fertility_policy_bears_fruit_steve_sailer/2/
OK, so not quite parity in TFR, but close enough. That was years ago though. Maybe they're the same now.
Yep.
But the Jewish birth rate is composed of two very different populations. The ultra orthodox population that does not work and basically lives from social care and also must not do military service makes up a far over average proportion Jewish Israeli reproduction. This is actually considered as another demographic threat to that still Jewish majority that prefers a secular state.
In whatever way, I think this state will sooner or later walk away from European living conditions.
happycow
11-04-2021, 08:42 PM
But going based on where people plot on an autosomal level and phenotypes is less meaningful, for all peoples are socially constructed. Ashkenazi Jews can actually trace their LINEAGE back to Ancient Jews, and we are genetically 45-65% West Asian. Samaritans and Ashkenazi Jews actually have more similar traditions to each other than Palestinians do with any other Jewish group. If identity were about genes/blood, then African Americans are mostly West African with some white and native American mixed in, which they are genetically, but that's not who they are culturally speaking and that doesn't define who they are.
The reason why Ashkenazim identify as Israelites in the first place has to do with their line of tradition, for it's not like the Ancient Israelites had existed since the beginning of time. There were other people who existed before the Ancient Israelites and later on became Ancient Israelites BECAUSE OF THE PEOPLE WITH WHOM THEY IDENTIFIED. Ashkenazim don't say that they're Aramaeans, for those aren't the people whose traditions we continue to this day. Tribes survive if their traditions and practices survive. A lot of tribes who no longer exist have descendents, but it doesn't matter if they have only passed on their genes and nothing else. Even if Palestinians did have all of their genes from the Ancient Israelites (which they don't), they still only have their genes and not much else.
And like i said, people only talk about Palestinians being Ancient Israelites in order to discredit the Jewish connection to the land. People claim that Palestinians have been there forever, and so why didn't they start trying to revive their Ancient Israelite heritage at some point in history?
The odds of Palestinian muslims reviving anything pre arab and pre islam is next to nothing. Arab identity is strong especially in arab muslims. I'm willing to bet most arab muslims do not know a god damn thing about their pre islamic heritage. I wish all levantines would ditch the arab identity, but like I said, that is unlikely to ever happen.
happycow
11-04-2021, 08:47 PM
I bet the fucker will be back after a while. Few banned users genuinely leave TA, instead they keep sneaking back in as illegals.
Yeah he will be back. :icon_lol:
Israel colonization of Palestine, is not based upon religious practices, because most Zionist founders were secular, even atheists
It's purely racially-based : Jewishness is having a Jewish mother, which means that you can even not speak Hebrew, being atheist and live as a hippie in New York, and yet given by Israeli government, the citizenship in Israel and access to housing in the "West Bank" (Yehuda-Shomron) if you can prove your Jewishness, while the INDIGENOUS Palestinians, can just be expelled and go live in the camps of suburbs of Beirut...
So the genetic question is essential in the debate for Zionists to legitimize their colonialism...
https://youtu.be/EcTv9w4-lUk?t=25
1. Never heard a Zionist (almost all Jews are zionists) discuss DNA irl.
2. I assume you linked that video because they look less MENA than the avg Jew. This is Taglit Russia. It takes anyone with a Jewish grandparent and few pure Jews are left in Russia. What's your ethnicity, btw?
Is Meirav Cohen, the minister for social equality in Israel, one of such cases? She was born in Jerusalem to Moroccan Sephardic parents
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%91_%D7%9B%D7%94%D7%9F_-_%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%9F_%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8 %D7%90%D7%9C.jpg/367px-%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%91_%D7%9B%D7%94%D7%9F_-_%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%9F_%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8 %D7%90%D7%9C.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meirav_Cohen
I swear there are Belorussians that are swarthier than her. And the Sephardim are not even white as a group. But you don't care much about pigmentation, do you.
Sure, but she'd never pass in Belarus.
RenaRyuguu
11-04-2021, 11:50 PM
they are also turkiyeeee then
Her facial features are gracile Jewish/southern. You are Berber who doesn't really know what typical European is.
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3f/e1/ca/3fe1ca909d9a96a0a45b86020164084d--french-beauty-french-actress.jpg
She actually looks more Tunisian Jewish than Ashkenazi - just light.
RogueState
11-05-2021, 12:09 AM
I'm sad Nassbean got banned :/
@Pine :
1. Yeah, that's why MyHeritage was founded by Israeli ( https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/MyHeritage ) and DNA has importance in the Israeli self-consciousness as explained in this documentary :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrJt8GHzXeo
2. Russian "Jews" are a big part of Israeli population, and one of the main source of olim for decades (although now, it's more France), so it's not anecdotal. Thanks to prove me that Jewishness and Law's of Return (Aliyah) has nothing to do with "cultural, linguistic, religious heritage" (aka nurture-environmental factors) but are purely about proving matrilinear Jewish admixture, which is the most blatant definition of racialism... so Zionism is directly tied to Jewish blood, which means having "Jewish admixture", thus back to genetics.
I will let Eli Yishai explain you more about that. The fact that he is wrong or not scientifically doesn't matter, it represents and exposes the deep Israeli subconsciousness of being a Jew : it's an ethnicity determined by genes (from the mother), more than anything else.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1FsUsrPx18
Imagine if Germany made the same video as below, mocking a girl trying to marry an ethnic "Aryan" by being obliged to make fake conversion papers... what would be the public reaction ? "Blatant racialism..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b88ciR0AY_w
(lol at the video btw, very funny)
Nassbean said earlier that Christian Lebanese are darker than the Muslims. This is plainly false. You can easily tell the two apart on a group level and in the reverse direction.
When Christian Lebanese aren't outside to tan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcshNhOCFBU
Each one passes for Ashkenazi and vice-versa, except the Syriac one due to obvious Assyrian admix/ancestry. I can at most see a disagreement about Raymond Nader.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vebTUU34JfA
Again, no cherrypicking. Most famous Lebanese Christian Americans:
Ralph Nader:
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/2168451223/headshot_nader_400x400.jpg
Helen Thomas (told Ashkenazim to go back to Europe. Ironically, an Ashkenazi caricature herself)
https://s.abcnews.com/images/Politics/AP_helen_thomas_jt_130720_16x9_992.jpg
General John Abizaid
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/John_P._Abizaid_official_photo.jpg/1920px-John_P._Abizaid_official_photo.jpg
Casey Kassem (nope, wouldn't think he's Ashkenazi. Staying unbiased):
https://ca-times.brightspotcdn.com/dims4/default/8de8631/2147483647/strip/true/crop/3000x2283+0+0/resize/840x639!/format/webp/quality/90/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F76%2F5c%2F5ac57b7dbf 2c024a789f8a17fdc1%2Ff3a665b14ec14982b189f50735e09 e24
Palestinian Christians (tanned, in Israel):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8knx4zpgwhQ
First passes as Ashkenazi and so does 2:30 (particularly, in my family. Even has the same facial expressions). Rest look more Mizrachi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8knx4zpgwhQ
and for comparison for the previous video: Gil Shuster specifically spotted these guys out by phenotype on the street as Ashkenazi (as opposed to Sephardi and Mizrachi). Do they even look worlds apart with the Palestinian Christians shown in the prior video?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKrt_O-bVm4
Do Ashkenazim look as Middle Eastern as Lebanese Christians? No
Are Ashkenazim as Levantine as Lebanese Christians? Of course not.
If we go by the TA phenotype litmus test, is it unthinkable that Ashkenazim could derive half of their ancestry from such people?
The idea that Ashkenazim pass best as a group anywhere north of Bergamo is insane. As for breakdowns, I'll indulge this autism for a bit. About 40% of Ashkenazim pass best as South Euros. 40% looks distinctively Jewish (what's this? I don't fucking know. But I know that if this cohort wore crosses, I'd still suspect them of being Jewish. This likely means that at least part of their phenotype has something visibly Middle Eastern or I'm just picking up on the evil grins.). 10% pass best in Northern Europe. 10% pass best in the Middle East.
As for genetics:
Target: Palestinian
Distance: 0.9524% / 0.00952427
39.0 Egyptian
29.4 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
19.8 Kurdish
11.8 Saudi
Target: Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
Distance: 2.3323% / 0.02332310
68.6 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
21.0 Assyrian
10.4 BedouinA
Why isn't the fit so great? Average is only based on 2 samples. Why mixed time references? Waiting for the appropriate ancients. I bet an appropriate antiquity/iron age Anatolian reference will improve the model.
Target: Levant_Beirut_IAIII
Distance: 1.5319% / 0.01531893
68.6 Levant_Beirut_IAII
20.0 Greek_Cappadocia
11.4 GRC_Mycenaean
Same issue - waiting for the time appropriate samples.
If anyone was waiting for Bronze Age continuity, forget about it if you're West Eurasian. Palestinians don't have it. Jews don't have it. This server is under the impression that Armenians do - don't get your hopes up.
Finally, Samaritans:
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/mcs/media/images/50564000/jpg/_50564773_samaritanssinging.jpg
Lighter Samaritans:
https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-dcb3c9361590c6d8c58bed281d40f40e
Even Lighter Samaritans:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sofi_Tsedaka#/media/File:Sofi_Tzadka.jpg
https://cdnuploads.aa.com.tr/uploads/PhotoGallery/2017/10/04/thumbs_b2_ff525fae0cfc3d0dc6913028d9978fb9.jpg
Dark Samaritans:
https://images.forwardcdn.com/image/675x/center/images/cropped/samaritan-kids-1430659254.JPG
https://flashbak.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/PA-4613081-1024x714.jpg
Average Samaritans:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Flickr_-_Government_Press_Office_%28GPO%29_-_Samaritans_praying_during_Passover_holiday_ceremo ny_on_mount_Grizim.jpg/2880px-Flickr_-_Government_Press_Office_%28GPO%29_-_Samaritans_praying_during_Passover_holiday_ceremo ny_on_mount_Grizim.jpg
Do they need 90% European admixture to look like Ashkenazim? I don't think so.
As for why Ashkenazim might be lighter than where they plot, here is a thought: Ashkenazim were in northern Europe during periods when selection for fairer features was in place for everyone.
If you thought I was biased in this post, I don't know what to tell you.
I'm sad Nassbean got banned :/
@Pine :
1. Yeah, that's why MyHeritage was founded by Israeli ( https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/MyHeritage ) and DNA has importance in the Israeli self-consciousness as explained in this documentary :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrJt8GHzXeo
Israel has a DNA company and someone made a documentary video. Now it's an agenda? I'm in fact saddened that there aren't more Israeli docs on Jewish DNA. I only know of that one and one other one. Israelis don't care about DNA. Many, if not most, think they're converted/diluted goyim.
2. Russian "Jews" are a big part of Israeli population, and one of the main source of olim for decades (although now, it's more France), so it's not anecdotal. Thanks to prove me that Jewishness and Law's of Return (Aliyah) has nothing to do with "cultural, linguistic, religious heritage" (aka nurture-environmental factors) but are purely about proving matrilinear Jewish admixture, which is the most blatant definition of racialism... so Zionism is directly tied to Jewish blood, which means having "Jewish admixture", thus back to genetics.
Aliyah doesn't care if your grandparent is matrilineal. A grandparent was chosen because it has been proven to be enough to face anti-Semitism. Aliyah also admits converts, how is that for admixture? It's amazing. You're trying to argue that Zionism's goal is racial purity, but yourself have pointed that it barely requires any Jewish DNA.
I will let Eli Yishai explain you more about that. The fact that he is wrong or not scientifically doesn't matter, it represents and exposes the deep Israeli subconsciousness of being a Jew : it's an ethnicity determined by genes (from the mother), more than anything else.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1FsUsrPx18
You trolling me? All religious people like to think science supports religion.
Imagine if Germany made the same video as below, mocking a girl trying to marry an ethnic "Aryan" by being obliged to make fake conversion papers... what would be the public reaction ? "Blatant racialism..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b88ciR0AY_w
(lol at the video btw, very funny)
The video is made by Shas, the Ultra Orthodox Sephardi party, who are paranoid that all Soviet Jews are Slavic larpers. It's meant to be a jab at Lieberman's Secular (largely Soviet) party. Do I have to defend Shas in order to defend the existence of Israel? Tell me what's at stake here. Israelis have said and will say worse things. As far as this kinda media being allowed, it should be allowed everywhere. Did America satisfy the standards of Nazi Germany because some of Trump's comments? Give me a break.
Why is conversion to Judaism prohibited for Palestinians/Arabs in Israel? They have a lot of local blood and could become Jewish (again).
It's not.
Dr_Maul
11-05-2021, 01:18 AM
Why isn't the fit so great?
Simple model based on studies (something about Beit Sahour is off, not sure what exactly) :
Target: Lebanese_Muslim
Distance: 1.3243% / 0.01324337
72.4 Levant_Sidon_MBA
14.6 Tajik_Rushan
11.4 GRC_Helladic_MBA
1.6 Yoruba
Target: Lebanese_Christian
Distance: 1.4521% / 0.01452072
80.6 Levant_Sidon_MBA
14.0 GRC_Helladic_MBA
5.4 Tajik_Rushan
Target: Palestinian
Distance: 1.2541% / 0.01254145
61.0 Levant_Sidon_MBA
17.8 BedouinB
9.8 Tajik_Rushan
6.8 GRC_Helladic_MBA
4.6 Yoruba
They also do. Like I said North are not that distinct from southern Levantines. Leb Christians at times are even more Arabian shifted than the Muslim Lebs. Why Shia Lebanese don’t show Iranic admixture?
Even if Palestinians have Arabian admixture it does not delegitimise them, because as a whole Jews are more mixed and many are descendants of various converts through out the centuries according to Shalmo Sands book such as the The invention of the Jewish nation.
There needs to be more research on the Khazars and their genetics. The Khazar theory did not come out of thin air. Plus the Khazar empire was very significant and important in the history of Europe and the world. It represented the third Abrahamic world power, and Judaism as its religion. It seems conveniently to have been put to the dust bin of history. The reason because the Khazars have blocked us from entering into Europe, after successfully conquering most of the Med islands like Sicily, Cyprus, Balearic Islands and also Iberia along with parts of Southern France. The Khazars also choose Judaism for political reasons and their king or Khagan Bulan also felt ashamed that his people paganism and Phallus worship kept them savage. It was Judaism that maintained Khazar independence. Plus Khagan Bulan had invited many Jews from Iraq to propagate the faith in his relam, they were even briefly allied with the Christian Europeans against the Arabs. However the Arab Khazar wars, despite being loss for the Arabs, had greatly contributed to their weakness, and the fall to others. After the Khazar fall they don’t seem to be mentioned anywhere. If the Khazars were close to the Greco-Italians genetically speaking it will just confirm theory.However if the Roman exclusion of 70 AD is true, then it seems most Jews went to the Roman Empire oddly. More studies are needed.
If Palestinian Muslims are Arabian invaders, then Ashkenazim are Khazars, but like I said there needs to be more genetic evidence and many group around the Caspian region claim to descent from them. Though it does not matter because Judaism is mostly a religion. At one point even Arabia had several Jewish converts, these Arabian Jews contributed to other Jewish communities in the Mideast.
The Khazar study has been done. There is even a thread on this site. I'm sorry man - they weren't Greco-Roman. An apparent "Arabian shift" in a single sample doesn't mean that one Christian Levantine has Arab ancestry, whereas the other doesn't. They're not isolated pockets of Christian converts. There may be strong regional differences among Levantine Muslims - say a given village was converted to Islam later and remained endogamous. I can see them being very Levantine. But, I'm talking about broad population averages. By the way, Shlomo Sand is now claiming conspiracy. Same thing happened with Elhaik when he saw the writing on the wall.
Simple model based on studies (something about Beit Sahour is off, not sure what exactly) :
Target: Lebanese_Muslim
Distance: 1.3243% / 0.01324337
72.4 Levant_Sidon_MBA
14.6 Tajik_Rushan
11.4 GRC_Helladic_MBA
1.6 Yoruba
Target: Lebanese_Christian
Distance: 1.4521% / 0.01452072
80.6 Levant_Sidon_MBA
14.0 GRC_Helladic_MBA
5.4 Tajik_Rushan
Target: Palestinian
Distance: 1.2541% / 0.01254145
61.0 Levant_Sidon_MBA
17.8 BedouinB
9.8 Tajik_Rushan
6.8 GRC_Helladic_MBA
4.6 Yoruba
You skipped from MBA to modern. MLBA is gone and the entire Iron Age. One main reason Beit Sahour can't get good fits is probably because it's only based off of 2 samples and individuals sometimes can't get good fits due to random inheritance.
Notice that both Beirut IA III and the Roman Lebanese reference require extra Aegean and/or Anatolian relative to previous references.
By the way, your models aren't crazy. I've said that Palestinian Muslims might be up to 70% Levantine.
Dr_Maul
11-05-2021, 01:29 AM
You skipped from MBA to modern. MLBA is gone and the entire Iron Age. One main reason Beit Sahour can't get good fits is probably because it's only based off of 2 samples and individuals sometimes can't get good fits due to random inheritance.
Notice that both Beirut IA III and the Roman Lebanese reference require extra Aegean and/or Anatolian relative to previous references.
By the way, your models aren't crazy. I've said that Palestinian Muslims might be up to 70% Levantine.
Im not trying to really refute anyone in this thread just post some models, the reason I did MBA is because majority of the IA samples are pretty much the same minus some of the Iranic type (basically the 5% in Lebanese christians, acquired around the Iron age) Here it is with Roman:
Target: Lebanese_Muslim
Distance: 1.5380% / 0.01538050
79.0 Levant_LBN_Roman
10.4 Tajik_Rushan
6.8 GRC_Helladic_MBA
2.0 Yoruba
1.8 BedouinB
Target: Lebanese_Christian
Distance: 1.4935% / 0.01493513
89.6 Levant_LBN_Roman
7.8 GRC_Helladic_MBA
1.4 BedouinB
1.2 Tajik_Rushan
Thorn
11-05-2021, 02:06 AM
No she looks south-east european not really middle eastern. Funny how people tend to place every med looking jew in the middle east.
Are you kidding me?
She looks Armenoid and Arabid, can't pass as European.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/--rZr8DoYqcQ/Xr-1ch5NO6I/AAAAAAAACF4/XPytgGI1dZ0fZh7PMC_9adwLdWMGsfQJwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Abella-Danger-dangershewrote.jpg
https://fitting-room.rocks/photos/b/f15b8b6c672fbc81064a46942f311dc5.jpg
If King David (aka Prophet Dawud a.s.) was back, he would stand for Palestinians as his true sons and subjects !
Wa Allahu A'lam...
Someone from a Moabite grandma, who trusted non-Israelites as his top soldiers, and whose son slept with a ton of foreign women? Doubt he'd choose allegiances over perceived admixture.
Meerkat
11-05-2021, 03:13 AM
Do they need 90% European admixture to look like Ashkenazim? I don't think so.
As for why Ashkenazim might be lighter than where they plot, here is a thought: Ashkenazim were in northern Europe during periods when selection for fairer features was in place for everyone.
If you thought I was biased in this post, I don't know what to tell you.
Yes this is what I try telling people who say that Ashkenazim don't have a genotype that matches their phenotype. The European half of Ashkenazim actually clusters with North Italians, and these are north Italians:
https://youtu.be/nfmj1-Yphr0
If these people bred with Samaritans or Lebanese or Syrians, most of their children would probably look similar to Ashkenazim. It's not weird at all that some Ashkenazim look like Yitzhak Rabin.
Meerkat
11-05-2021, 03:21 AM
Israel has a DNA company and someone made a documentary video. Now it's an agenda? I'm in fact saddened that there aren't more Israeli docs on Jewish DNA. I only know of that one and one other one. Israelis don't care about DNA. Many, if not most, think they're converted/diluted goyim.
It's weird because I noticed that a lot of Ashkenazim irl believe that they're from Avraham Avinu and yet simultaneously believe that they come from Slavic tribes. It's weird, especially considering many have the Kohen gene and many could trace themselves back to King David.
It's weird because I noticed that a lot of Ashkenazim irl believe that they're from Avraham Avinu and yet simultaneously believe that they come from Slavic tribes. It's weird, especially considering many have the Kohen gene and many could trace themselves back to King David.
People don't actively think about this stuff, so they're able to keep mutually incompatible thoughts in their head.
It's weird because I noticed that a lot of Ashkenazim irl believe that they're from Avraham Avinu and yet simultaneously believe that they come from Slavic tribes. It's weird, especially considering many have the Kohen gene and many could trace themselves back to King David.
What is this "Kohen gene"?
What is this "Kohen gene"?
CMH - Cohen Model Haplotype. It's 2 Y-DNA lineages.
https://yfull.com/tree/J-FGC4975/
https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z18271/
It's not.
You are not Rabbi Yitzhak Peretz, are you ;)
Rabbi Yitzhak Peretz, director of the Israeli government’s Conversion Authority, made the statement earlier this week, according to NRG.
Israel’s authority handling conversions to Judaism rejects Palestinian applicants without review because of their ethnic origin, its head said.
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/palestinian-requests-to-convert-to-judaism-rejected-automatically-449987/
Dr_Maul
11-05-2021, 03:36 PM
CMH - Cohen Model Haplotype. It's 2 Y-DNA lineages.
https://yfull.com/tree/J-FGC4975/
https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z18271/
How can the first really be CMH? It is not even Levantine, J-L25 is 1 branch South Europe the rest Iran / BMAC
Sasaolo68
11-05-2021, 08:47 PM
Most Jews I saw were gracile. But yeah, she can pass for light Iberian or light southern French. Jews and southern Europeans obviously overlap.
But ask Swedes, Germans or Russians would she look typical for them and see what they answer.Look, i hate use this "gracilized"/"robust" terms, as for the most part, they are pseudo-science.
But many jews i know definitely wouldn't fit in that "gracile" classification, just like many Levantines aren't "gracile" at all...
Sasaolo68
11-05-2021, 08:49 PM
Are you kidding me?
She looks Armenoid and Arabid, can't pass as European.
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/--rZr8DoYqcQ/Xr-1ch5NO6I/AAAAAAAACF4/XPytgGI1dZ0fZh7PMC_9adwLdWMGsfQJwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Abella-Danger-dangershewrote.jpg
https://fitting-room.rocks/photos/b/f15b8b6c672fbc81064a46942f311dc5.jpgDoesn't look arabid, she could fit in Greece as an Armenoid type.
How can the first really be CMH? It is not even Levantine, J-L25 is 1 branch South Europe the rest Iran / BMAC
Aaron didn't exist in the Neolithic. That's what your definition is of Levantine, right? It had to be in the Levant during the Neolithic. Also your understanding of J-L25 is off. Those Europeans are bound to be late comers. I expect to find numerous J-L25 clades among Judeans and J-FGC4975 was clearly in Judea. Only question is when it arrived to Judea. However, if Aaron existed, then I bet on J-Z18271 being his lineage. This isn't because of muh Levantine vs non-Levantine. This is because its Cohens have a MRCA >2800 YBP, whereas the Mountain Jew in J-FGC4975* doesn't identify as a Cohen.
Dr_Maul
11-05-2021, 11:17 PM
Aaron didn't exist in the Neolithic. That's what your definition is of Levantine, right? It had to be in the Levant during the Neolithic. Also your understanding of J-L25 is off. Those Europeans are bound to be late comers. I expect to find numerous J-L25 clades among Judeans and J-FGC4975 was clearly in Judea. Only question is when it arrived to Judea. However, if Aaron existed, then I bet on J-Z18271 being his lineage. This isn't because of muh Levantine vs non-Levantine. This is because its Cohens have a MRCA >2800 YBP, whereas the Mountain Jew in J-FGC4975* doesn't identify as a Cohen.
No, if I meant Neolithic then it wouldn't even be J in the first place.
The Levant is quite well sampled at this point, and so are Ancient J2's as well. The clades are quite clear cut for most of them. J-L25 is no "young" or "basal" branch to be mistaken with. J-L25 is ONLY found in 2 groups of ancient samples with their modern samples reflecting that: Copper Age East Iran and Central Asia (as well as their Medieval Turkic descendants) and Imperial Romans (as well as their medieval Italian descendants). Today the vast majority of its descendants belong to these groups (Mostly Uyghurs and Iranians, with the latter being the majority on Yfull: Persians from the Gulf states, on 1000 Genomes project)) and a handful of South European Roman descendants.
There is NO legitimate Aaron, Levite, Jacobite or ANY Abraham descended haplotype outside of J1-P58: none that is 'real', anyway.
No, if I meant Neolithic then it wouldn't even be J in the first place.
The Levant is quite well sampled at this point, and so are Ancient J2's as well. The clades are quite clear cut for most of them. J-L25 is no "young" or "basal" branch to be mistaken with. J-L25 is ONLY found in 2 groups of ancient samples with their modern samples reflecting that: Copper Age East Iran and Central Asia (as well as their Medieval Turkic descendants) and Imperial Romans (as well as their medieval Italian descendants). Today the vast majority of its descendants belong to these groups (Mostly Uyghurs and Iranians, with the latter being the majority on Yfull: Persians from the Gulf states, on 1000 Genomes project)) and a handful of South European Roman descendants.
There is NO legitimate Aaron, Levite, Jacobite or ANY Abraham descended haplotype outside of J1-P58: none that is 'real', anyway.
Ancient Levant isn't well sampled. It'll take a few papers till we're at that point. No paper yet can give us an ancient anchoring of Levantine Q's. And with G, we either have one sample or none. I'll happily make a friendly bet that J-L25 will be found among Judeans. I could go into a lot of detail here, but here is a simple reason that'll convince you to reconsider your view: of the 4 existing Samaritan lineages, you'll at most consider 1 Levantine.
Also, J-L25 has been found all over the Levant, since you're looking at moderns. I'd like to hear your non-Judean explanation for that J-L25 branch.
Principe Azzurro
11-06-2021, 12:26 AM
No, if I meant Neolithic then it wouldn't even be J in the first place.
The Levant is quite well sampled at this point, and so are Ancient J2's as well. The clades are quite clear cut for most of them. J-L25 is no "young" or "basal" branch to be mistaken with. J-L25 is ONLY found in 2 groups of ancient samples with their modern samples reflecting that: Copper Age East Iran and Central Asia (as well as their Medieval Turkic descendants) and Imperial Romans (as well as their medieval Italian descendants). Today the vast majority of its descendants belong to these groups (Mostly Uyghurs and Iranians, with the latter being the majority on Yfull: Persians from the Gulf states, on 1000 Genomes project)) and a handful of South European Roman descendants.
There is NO legitimate Aaron, Levite, Jacobite or ANY Abraham descended haplotype outside of J1-P58: none that is 'real', anyway.
All J2a-L25 found in ancient Iranian and Central Asian samples belonged to the J-F3133 branch, none under PF4888 and Z387 have been found. All 4 Jewish clades belong in PF4888 and Z387 (1 under PF5366, 1 under L243 and 2 under L70). The ancient Levant is quite undersampled, but we could expect some L25.
Dr_Maul
11-06-2021, 03:07 AM
Ancient Levant isn't well sampled. It'll take a few papers till we're at that point. No paper yet can give us an ancient anchoring of Levantine Q's. And with G, we either have one sample or none. I'll happily make a friendly bet that J-L25 will be found among Judeans. I could go into a lot of detail here, but here is a simple reason that'll convince you to reconsider your view: of the 4 existing Samaritan lineages, you'll at most consider 1 Levantine.
Also, J-L25 has been found all over the Levant, since you're looking at moderns. I'd like to hear your non-Judean explanation for that J-L25 branch.
Well, the source is certainly Roman era Judean (probably) I'm just saying that it is not "true Judean" if you catch my drift. And we have more than enough Bronze Age Levant samples I would say, at least, since they are 90% the same, simple assumptions can be made. Nothing about Levantine Q's? Ancient Q-L275 includes Iron Age Pakistan, BMAC and Mongolian Slab Graves. Middle East TMRCA 3000-4000 BP. Only thing left to tell you WSHG -> Indo-Iranian assimilation would be if it was written somewhere on the chromosome itself really. The Hellenistic and MA Levantines with Q1a are literally Y-Matching with Andronovo, and same TMRCA as the latter. I'm not exactly sure what is left to speculation regarding those. Not sure what the point about Samaritans is, I never knew they were the leading authority on lineage sustainment. They simply aren't sons of Abraham, although, it can be said that they are definitely more native Levantine than any J person for sure.
Dr_Maul
11-06-2021, 03:10 AM
PF4888 and Z387
Yes, those are the Roman lineages. Although the root in Romans themselves is most definitely West Asian. Again, not sure the point of this argument. They simply aren't Bronze Age Levantine lineages, and it's unlikely that they will ever be discovered to be so.
Well, the source is certainly Roman era Judean (probably) I'm just saying that it is not "true Judean" if you catch my drift. And we have more than enough Bronze Age Levant samples I would say, at least, since they are 90% the same, simple assumptions can be made. Nothing about Levantine Q's? Ancient Q-L275 includes Iron Age Pakistan, BMAC and Mongolian Slab Graves. Middle East TMRCA 3000-4000 BP. Only thing left to tell you WSHG -> Indo-Iranian assimilation would be if it was written somewhere on the chromosome itself really. The Hellenistic and MA Levantines with Q1a are literally Y-Matching with Andronovo, and same TMRCA as the latter. I'm not exactly sure what is left to speculation regarding those. Not sure what the point about Samaritans is, I never knew they were the leading authority on lineage sustainment. They simply aren't sons of Abraham, although, it can be said that they are definitely more native Levantine than any J person for sure.
How many Bronze Age Levantine Y samples do we have?
SUPREEEEEME
11-06-2021, 03:58 AM
Yes, those are the Roman lineages. Although the root in Romans themselves is most definitely West Asian. Again, not sure the point of this argument. They simply aren't Bronze Age Levantine lineages, and it's unlikely that they will ever be discovered to be so.
They're certainly not Roman introgressed, if that is what you mean.
Dr_Maul
11-06-2021, 04:57 AM
How many Bronze Age Levantine Y samples do we have?
Around 20 Bronze Age I believe
Dr_Maul
11-06-2021, 04:59 AM
They're certainly not Roman introgressed, if that is what you mean.
Probably not, considering almost all of European Jews Y-DNA is more or less West Asian. Although that is not what I am really arguing about here
Around 20 Bronze Age I believe
And how many were J2a?
Dr_Maul
11-06-2021, 05:59 PM
And how many were J2a?
3 out of 30 non outlier Israel BA samples (which I was previously referring to) and 4 out of 61 total Bronze Age Levantine samples (not counting steppe outliers). I highlighted their specific branch as well as ID (pretty sure they are on vahaduo) as well as the 1 G sample as you seemed moderately interested in that before. Main haplogroups are J1-P58 (65%) and J2b (11%).
Lebanon BA:
1 J1-P58
1 J2b
Syria BA:
1 E-M34
4 J1-P58
1 G2a - G-PF3177 ETM018
2 T1a
Jordan BA:
1 J2b
12 J1-P58
Israel BA:
4 J2b
1 T1a
17 J1-P58
1 E-M34
2 CT
1 R
1 F
2 R1b-L23 (Megiddo Steppe outliers, Sea people or Mitanni(?))
1 R1a-M417 (Megiddo Steppe outliers, Sea people or Mitanni(?))
1 J2a (J2-PF5000) I10266
2 J2a (J2-M92) I4519
Turkey (Hatay) BA:
1 T1a
1 L2
5 J1-P58
1 H2
1 J2b
1 J2a (J2-CTS6804) ALA011
3 out of 30 non outlier Israel BA samples (which I was previously referring to) and 4 out of 61 total Bronze Age Levantine samples (not counting steppe outliers). I highlighted their specific branch as well as ID (pretty sure they are on vahaduo) as well as the 1 G sample as you seemed moderately interested in that before. Main haplogroups are J1-P58 (65%) and J2b (11%).
Lebanon BA:
1 J1-P58
1 J2b
Syria BA:
1 E-M34
4 J1-P58
1 G2a - G-PF3177 ETM018
2 T1a
Jordan BA:
1 J2b
12 J1-P58
Israel BA:
4 J2b
1 T1a
17 J1-P58
1 E-M34
2 CT
1 R
1 F
2 R1b-L23 (Megiddo Steppe outliers, Sea people or Mitanni(?))
1 R1a-M417 (Megiddo Steppe outliers, Sea people or Mitanni(?))
1 J2a (J2-PF5000) I10266
2 J2a (J2-M92) I4519
Turkey (Hatay) BA:
1 T1a
1 L2
5 J1-P58
1 H2
1 J2b
1 J2a (J2-CTS6804) ALA011
What do you suppose is more likely - that Bronze Age Levant had that much R1a and R1b relative to J2a or that it's undersampled?
Dr_Maul
11-06-2021, 06:34 PM
What do you suppose is more likely - that Bronze Age Levant had that much R1a and R1b relative to J2a or that it's undersampled?
60 samples is not "under-sampled", many places in the world would kill to have half that many and many "ancestral truth's" are accepted with a fraction of those samples. Those 3 are Autosomal outliers too, remove them and it is a very, very clear picture. The Irony is that all of the J2 are from the LBA too, had I made the cutoff 1500 BC we would be looking at 0%. Of course the Iron age, hellenistic, roman period etc is a different story - both autosomally and by haplogroup. However, Jacob did not live at that time period.
60 samples is not "under-sampled", many places in the world would kill to have half that many and many "ancestral truth's" are accepted with a fraction of those samples. Those 3 are Autosomal outliers too, remove them and it is a very, very clear picture. The Irony is that all of the J2 are from the LBA too, had I made the cutoff 1500 BC we would be looking at 0%. Of course the Iron age, hellenistic, roman period etc is a different story - both autosomally and by haplogroup. However, Jacob did not live at that time period.
What is absolutely true is that I expect the relative fraction of J2a to go up as time goes forward. Alternatively, I agree that J2a will less be and less common in the Levant further back in time. I won't be shocked if 95% of the ancient J2a in the region is LBA and onwards. As far as LBA and the Biblical Aaron - time fits. If he was a real figure, he would've likely lived in the LBA. It is also true that many places would kill for that many ancient Ys, but it doesn't make the Levant rich in ancient Ys, just less poor. If we just take the 60 samples we found there, how can we say that J-L25 Cohen clade couldn't have arrived in the Bronze Age? Because that is original argument - that it couldn't. Your definition of Levantine is Bronze Age and prior. If you bet that it arrived later - that's not at all crazy. Iron Age might even be the best bet, but saying that current data shows it to be impossible is crazy.
Much related, consider what kind of clades we'll find here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khirbet_Kerak (Agamemnon was first to point this out)
Dr_Maul
11-06-2021, 09:22 PM
What is absolutely true is that I expect the relative fraction of J2a to go up as time goes forward.
eh, debatable
Alternatively, I agree that J2a will less be and less common in the Levant further back in time. I won't be shocked if 95% of the ancient J2a in the region is LBA and onwards.
Ok, true so far
As far as LBA and the Biblical Aaron - time fits. If he was a real figure, he would've likely lived in the LBA.
Come on man, Aaron didn't simply pop out of the ground. Was Abraham LBA too? no.
It is also true that many places would kill for that many ancient Ys, but it doesn't make the Levant rich in ancient Ys, just less poor.
Except that 60 haplogroups is not poor, especially not for the BRONZE AGE. And thats males only. The Levant is one of the best sampled regions outside of Europe for sure
If we just take the 60 samples we found there, how can we say that J-L25 Cohen clade couldn't have arrived in the Bronze Age? Because that is original argument - that it couldn't. Your definition of Levantine is Bronze Age and prior. If you bet that it arrived later - that's not at all crazy. Iron Age might even be the best bet, but saying that current data shows it to be impossible is crazy.
Okaay.. well, certainly nothing is 'impossible'. But surely you see how this looks? We have barely any J2a to begin with. Ok. Besides 2 outlier branches, the J2a found is M67 / M92, the primary J2 of the region. Ok. The J2 that you are referring to is barely found in the modern, and 0% in the ancient. Ok. The upstream of Yfull has pretty much no middle easterners whatsoever. You begin to understand my point here right?
Much related, consider what kind of clades we'll find here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khirbet_Kerak (Agamemnon was first to point this out)
probably nothing crazy outside of what we already have
Come on man, Aaron didn't simply pop out of the ground. Was Abraham LBA too? no.
I see, you're arguing from Abraham. He was also Bronze Age. I can't argue a simple interpretation of the Bible using DNA. Black Hebrew Israelites try all the time and it fails. They end up calling Jacob E1b1a. The pure Biblical narrative doesn't work for any nation or any case. There isn't a way to justify the entire Biblical narrative. Hell, clade MRCAs go beyond the Biblical age of the world. I can argue that if Aaron existed, then J-L25>Cohen has a reasonable chance of being him, but I can't argue from Abraham. To whatever degree I'm willing to believe that Aaron existed, I less so believe Abraham did. Even for J1>Cohen, it likely existed in the Levant prior to Abraham, yet he was a newcomer according to the Bible. I agree with Klyosov in that Abraham was likely a collective figure. And I think he represents other West Asians who entered the Israelites: Hurrians, Mitanni, Hittites etc. I think the Biblical focus on Abraham is also a way for Israelites to distance themselves from Canaanites. Arguably, the entire Israelite identity only existed for the group to separate themselves from Canaanites.
Except that 60 haplogroups is not poor, especially not for the BRONZE AGE. And thats males only. The Levant is one of the best sampled regions outside of Europe for sure
It's far behind Europe or any sample size that's sufficient.
Okaay.. well, certainly nothing is 'impossible'. But surely you see how this looks? We have barely any J2a to begin with. Ok. Besides 2 outlier branches, the J2a found is M67 / M92, the primary J2 of the region. Ok. The J2 that you are referring to is barely found in the modern, and 0% in the ancient. Ok. The upstream of Yfull has pretty much no middle easterners whatsoever. You begin to understand my point here right?
Look outside YFull. YFull is a voluntary database, where the company sometimes uploads study samples.
I just asked Agamemnon about this:
L25 has a lot a Levantine and Arabian branches (Y17949, Z40171, Z38394, Z33976, Y29712, Y143504 to cite a few) with coalescence dates that go back to the EBA (3rd millennium), none of this can be explained if you didn't have at least some L25 in the Levant by that time
probably nothing crazy outside of what we already have
Given that it's an extension of Kura-Araxes, I expect to find a lot of J2a there. I also expect to find Q-L245 in LBA Levant.
Dr_Maul
11-06-2021, 10:29 PM
.
That guy realizes that all (but Y17949) of those branches are unrelated to the Jewish branch right? They all fall under the Iranian F3133. Not to mention afaik literally all of those arabs are persians from the GCC in the 1000 genomes project,. There's a reason you won't find a single "Saudi" outside of Riyad or Sharqiya in any of these branches (or most of J2 to be honest) unlike their genuine lineages in J1, E, T, etc. I thought we literally went over this... Y17949 is still not the same branch. Try again. J2 is already a minority as it is in the Levant, and the vast majority of them are J-M67 more specifically M92.
Dr_Maul
11-06-2021, 10:30 PM
.
That guy realizes that all (but Y17949) of those branches are unrelated to the Jewish branch right? They all fall under the Iranian F3133. Not to mention afaik literally all of those arabs are persians from the GCC in the 1000 genomes project,. There's a reason you won't find a single "Saudi" outside of Riyad or Sharqiya in any of these branches (or most of J2 to be honest) unlike their genuine lineages in J1, E, T, etc. I thought we literally went over this... Y17949 is still not the same branch. Try again. J2 is already a minority as it is in the Levant, and the vast majority of them are J-M67 more specifically M92.
That guy realizes that all (but Y17949) of those branches are unrelated to the Jewish branch right? They all fall under the Iranian F3133. Not to mention afaik literally all of those arabs are persians from the GCC in the 1000 genomes project,. There's a reason you won't find a single "Saudi" outside of Riyad or Sharqiya in any of these branches (or most of J2 to be honest) unlike their genuine lineages in J1, E, T, etc. I thought we literally went over this... Y17949 is still not the same branch. Try again. J2 is already a minority as it is in the Levant, and the vast majority of them are J-M67 more specifically M92.
Your statement was that specific Jewish branch didn't exist in Bronze Age Levant because J-L25 didn't exist in Bronze Age Levant. Before I start checking the local origin of each Arab in those lineages, are you really arguing all the Arabs(including those in Levant) are independent Iranian arrivals?
Tooting Carmen
11-07-2021, 03:32 AM
AJs surely look intermediate between Europe and the Middle East, don't they? Here are two British AJ politicians, to show their diversity:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Official_portrait_of_Rt_Hon_Grant_Shapps_MP_crop_2 .jpghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ef/Official_portrait_of_Rt_Hon_Edward_Miliband_MP_cro p_2.jpg
Dr_Maul
11-07-2021, 03:58 AM
Your statement was that specific Jewish branch didn't exist in Bronze Age Levant because J-L25 didn't exist in Bronze Age Levant. Before I start checking the local origin of each Arab in those lineages, are you really arguing all the Arabs(including those in Levant) are independent Iranian arrivals?
J-L25 doesn’t exist in the Bronze Age, yes (or any Levantine samples for that matter). However at least F3133 is Middle Eastern (Iranian) so I figured some slack could be given but someone else already pointed out that Jews do not belong to that, rather the European branch. And while it may not be Neolithic European or something, surely you can find it “telling” that isn’t a single Arab, regardless if they are “true Arab descent”, upstream of it: despite being one of the most populous groups on the website. Secondly, do you think J L25 is some major lineage in the region or something? It’s a minuscule lineage in the Levant and Iraq and even more non existent as you go south. Yes, almost all of them are probably some kind of Iranian, Turkish or adjacent descent, a factor that is more than proven to exist among contemporary Levantines. Also, I’m not claiming that those guys on Yfull are independent arrivals, rather that they are all simply ethnic Iranians in those countries because I know they are from the 1000 genomes project. You’ll notice that they are from the exact same regions as the R1a Gulfers and other relevant branches. All from the same study.
J-L25 doesn’t exist in the Bronze Age, yes (or any Levantine samples for that matter). However at least F3133 is Middle Eastern (Iranian) so I figured some slack could be given but someone else already pointed out that Jews do not belong to that, rather the European branch. And while it may not be Neolithic European or something, surely you can find it “telling” that isn’t a single Arab, regardless if they are “true Arab descent”, upstream of it: despite being one of the most populous groups on the website. Secondly, do you think J L25 is some major lineage in the region or something? It’s a minuscule lineage in the Levant and Iraq and even more non existent as you go south. Yes, almost all of them are probably some kind of Iranian, Turkish or adjacent descent, a factor that is more than proven to exist among contemporary Levantines. Also, I’m not claiming that those guys on Yfull are independent arrivals, rather that they are all simply ethnic Iranians in those countries because I know they are from the 1000 genomes project. You’ll notice that they are from the exact same regions as the R1a Gulfers and other relevant branches. All from the same study.
All the Iraqis, Qataris, etc are also Persians? Is the Lebanese in J-PF5366 (same branch as the Cohen one) also a NWA transplant? Are all the samples from Al-Qasim also Persian? Also, please explain Y17949.
Dr_Maul
11-07-2021, 11:41 PM
All the Iraqis, Qataris, etc are also Persians? Is the Lebanese in J-PF5366 (same branch as the Cohen one) also a NWA transplant? Are all the samples from Al-Qasim also Persian? Also, please explain Y17949.
There is no Lebanese in PF5366, I think you are mistaken there. There isn't anyone from the middle east in that branch, minus the 2-3 North Caucasians (not sure if you confirmed the Dagestani was mountain jew or not beforehand). Thats is kinda my whole point.
Qataris yes, it was one of the main countries in the project. Not sure about Iraq but thats like asking why there is Slavic haplogroups found in Greece. I also can't find these Qassimis you pointed out.
Regarding Y17949 it is not even in PF5366. So not even relevant really regarding the topic at hand (Cohens). However I should probably speak on it considering my past comments on the haplo in general (J L25). Well, I can't make much solid claims really. It falls under J-Z438 which has only been found in European ancients (nothing prior to Imperial Romans, however.). This is quite speculative but seeing Europeans (particularly south) and Middle Easterners sharing a common branch with a Bronze Age TMRCA automatically makes me think Sea Peoples, considering the same is found in specific branches of R1b Z2103. But again, this is more of a wild guess rather than a really evident opinion. Still mostly Europeans in the basal branches. This is definitely not some staple lineage in the middle east for sure. But its not really a big one anywhere eles, either. So I can't say I am certain on anything. For now I will stick to Anatolia BA / CHL. Maybe even N, looking at some of those N Europeans in the deeper and older branches.
There is no Lebanese in PF5366, I think you are mistaken there. There isn't anyone from the middle east in that branch, minus the 2-3 North Caucasians (not sure if you confirmed the Dagestani was mountain jew or not beforehand). Thats is kinda my whole point.
There is a Lebanese. Check FTDNA's Haplotree. He seems to be at the same level as the Brazilian you see on YFull. YFull is very limited. The Dagestani is a Jew. On YFull itself, you also see the Armenian, Georgian, and Adyghe. There is also an Azeri and Turks in it (FTDNA).
Qataris yes, it was one of the main countries in the project. Not sure about Iraq but thats like asking why there is Slavic haplogroups found in Greece. I also can't find these Qassimis you pointed out.
FTDNA
Regarding Y17949 it is not even in PF5366. So not even relevant really regarding the topic at hand (Cohens). However I should probably speak on it considering my past comments on the haplo in general (J L25). Well, I can't make much solid claims really. It falls under J-Z438 which has only been found in European ancients (nothing prior to Imperial Romans, however.). This is quite speculative but seeing Europeans (particularly south) and Middle Easterners sharing a common branch with a Bronze Age TMRCA automatically makes me think Sea Peoples, considering the same is found in specific branches of R1b Z2103. But again, this is more of a wild guess rather than a really evident opinion. Still mostly Europeans in the basal branches. This is definitely not some staple lineage in the middle east for sure. But its not really a big one anywhere eles, either. So I can't say I am certain on anything. For now I will stick to Anatolia BA / CHL. Maybe even N, looking at some of those N Europeans in the deeper and older branches.
You're too biased by moderns. Why aren't Phoenicians considered here when they're the best guess for most such clades?
And as far as moderns go, your view will change after seeing FTDNA. You'll see Syrians, Jordanians, Egyptians and Palestinians in J-L25.
happycow
11-08-2021, 01:21 AM
There is a Lebanese. Check FTDNA's Haplotree. He seems to be at the same level as the Brazilian you see on YFull. YFull is very limited. The Dagestani is a Jew. On YFull itself, you also see the Armenian, Georgian, and Adyghe. There is also an Azeri and Turks in it (FTDNA).
FTDNA
You're too biased by moderns. Why aren't Phoenicians considered here when they're the best guess for most such clades?
And as far as moderns go, your view will change after seeing FTDNA. You'll see Syrians, Jordanians, Egyptians and Palestinians in J-L25.
Interesting I didn't know about the FTDNA haplotree. I looked up G-Z6032 and it shows Mexico, Spain and Peru.
Babak
11-08-2021, 01:26 AM
Interesting I didn't know about the FTDNA haplotree. I looked up G-Z6032 and it shows Mexico, Spain and Peru.
Yea youre a mexican-levantine mutt bro lol
happycow
11-08-2021, 01:29 AM
Yea youre a mexican-levantine mutt bro lol
lmao it would appear so! I guess that's why the latin american bros said I could pass. :P
Interesting I didn't know about the FTDNA haplotree. I looked up G-Z6032 and it shows Mexico, Spain and Peru.
You missed the Italians and North Caucasians.
happycow
11-08-2021, 02:12 AM
You missed the Italians and North Caucasians.
Oh. I didn't view the country report.
Dr_Maul
11-08-2021, 03:17 AM
Check FTDNA's Haplotree
Pheonician is possible, but the Euros at the top made me think otherwise. And yes I know I am a bit Yfull biased but you can see how it looks when you have arabs in probably every y tree imaginable (at least West Asian ones) and not a single one on that branch? just saying. Combine that with the fact that the lineage (at least academically speaking) is next to non existent in the Levant I came to the conclusions I came to. Personally I don't find local individuals having it to be much evidence, that can occur for pretty much every clade really. Thats just my reasoning for what Im saying. Although anything is posible really
Pheonician is possible, but the Euros at the top made me think otherwise. And yes I know I am a bit Yfull biased but you can see how it looks when you have arabs in probably every y tree imaginable (at least West Asian ones) and not a single one on that branch? just saying. Combine that with the fact that the lineage (at least academically speaking) is next to non existent in the Levant I came to the conclusions I came to. Personally I don't find local individuals having it to be much evidence, that can occur for pretty much every clade really. Thats just my reasoning for what Im saying. Although anything is posible really
You're weighing the absence of evidence too much. There are clades with Levantines layered from one end to another and they haven't been found in the ancient Levant yet.
Jased
11-08-2021, 05:55 AM
lmao it would appear so! I guess that's why the latin american bros said I could pass. :P
In Mexico, the average mena/west asian /levantine Is the same as the average African sub-saharan admixture 1-6%
But Spaniards simply deny this facts. Modern Spaniards don't share west asian ancestry North African yes but not west asian, mean while Mexicans do get Jew/levantine matches (Palestinian/Jews etc) both on DNA testing and gedmatch.
Dunai
11-08-2021, 10:41 AM
Using my custom Modern Eurasian Calculator this is how the two main Jewish populations get modeled. It can be seen that Ashkenazis are significantly Southern European-like, especially East Mediterranean while Sephardis are more strongly West Mediterranean but also more significantly Middle Eastern than Ashkenazis:
Target: Ashkenazi
Distance: 5.2650% / 5.26496528 | ADC: 0.25x RC
31.9 Greek_Continental
26.9 South_Italian
20.8 Egyptian
20.4 Greek_Islander
Target: Sephardi
Distance: 5.2169% / 5.21689979 | ADC: 0.25x RC
56.2 South_Italian
23.7 South_Levantine
10.5 Sardinian
9.6 Arab
Dr_Maul
11-08-2021, 04:27 PM
You're weighing the absence of evidence too much. There are clades with Levantines layered from one end to another and they haven't been found in the ancient Levant yet.
I wasn't referring to Ancients tho. Academics put the modern Levant at almost fully M67 / M92.
Dr_Maul
11-08-2021, 04:37 PM
Using my custom Modern Eurasian Calculator this is how the two main Jewish populations get modeled. It can be seen that Ashkenazis are significantly Southern European-like, especially East Mediterranean while Sephardis are more strongly West Mediterranean but also more significantly Middle Eastern than Ashkenazis:
Generally they are around 45% Levantine, 40-50% depending on the source
https://i.ibb.co/kBvbgB5/a.png
Generally they are around 45% Levantine, 40-50% depending on the source
[IMG]https://i.ibb.co/kBvbgB5/a.png
This model is better according to Pine. You can remove HRV IA and leave only Etruscan
Levant_Beirut_IAIII,0.0879282,0.1524565,-0.0486488,-0.0910456,-0.0101942,-0.0317236,-0.0037306,-0.0098649,0.010124,0.0135538,0.0061304,-0.0041964,0.0116699,0.0030104,-0.0105864,0.0012099,1.64e-05,0.0007285,0.0025766,-0.0008755,0.0024332,0.0045751,-0.0034355,-0.0011446,-0.0020656
POL_Bodzia_VA,0.1315794,0.1273474,0.0807038,0.0682 176,0.0445004,0.027889,-0.0013162,0.0068766,0.0020452,-0.021759,-0.0045468,-0.001019,0.0072844,0.013267,-0.0029042,0.0041632,0.0007564,-0.004434,0.004676,0.0040772,0.0002494,-0.0010386,0.0006162,-0.0007472,0.00091
RUS_Kurevanikha_VA,0.127482,0.122879,0.078818,0.07 2029,0.044931,0.037092,0.004935,0.016615,-0.0045,-0.030616,-0.000974,-0.01154,0.019029,0.024772,-0.0095,-0.001326,-0.001956,-0.003167,0.009553,5e-04,-0.001747,-0.003215,0.010476,0.00241,0.004191
ITA_Etruscan,0.126913,0.153853,0.034695,-0.014212,0.0417,-0.005299,0.0024675,-0.002769,0.019839,0.0343515,-0.0023545,0.014237,-0.014792,-0.004335,-0.00475,-0.007823,-0.0028035,0.0052575,0.011564,-0.001188,-0.002558,0.003771,-6.15e-05,-0.0004215,-0.002694
DEU_MA_Alemannic,0.1301377,0.130326,0.0642363,0.05 31873,0.0370327,0.0162687,0.0073633,0.0052307,-0.001227,0.0023087,-0.0040053,0.0096913,-0.017344,-0.009725,0.0237963,0.0143197,0.0031727,0.0040117,0 .003855,0.004919,0.0058647,0.004493,-0.002999,0.014058,-0.0012773
HRV_IA,0.132035,0.151314,0.033941,-0.01615,0.024928,-0.005857,-0.006345,0.007154,0.003681,0.028976,0.001786,0.011 69,-0.02111,-0.001376,-0.005972,-0.008486,-0.006519,0.004941,0.005531,-0.014257,-0.001872,0.00507,0.001479,0.00253,0.003353
RUS_Alan_MA,0.1099532,0.1045994,-0.025418,-0.0089794,-0.0262818,0.0051316,0.0054522,-0.0072458,-0.0456908,-0.0248206,0.0028256,0.0098314,-0.0166796,-0.0065784,0.005809,-0.002758,0.005372,-0.0059036,-0.0057318,0.0034768,0.003893,0.006529,0.0015532,-0.0004094,-0.0036644
CHN_Layi_1400BP,0.017073,-0.426522,-0.038466,-0.053295,0.129255,0.060519,-0.00141,-0.022153,-0.020452,-0.00656,0.015427,0.013788,0.001487,0.001789,0.0150 65,0.011668,-0.008345,-0.007855,0.003394,-0.008754,0.029448,-0.002597,0.013927,0.007953,0.005628
Canary_Islands_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224
KAZ_Nomad_MA,0.067611,-0.1968096,0.050383,0.0102714,-0.0504708,-0.0099284,0.0125966,0.0103842,-0.0088764,-0.0076176,-0.0159142,-0.0009892,-0.0021408,-0.0150008,0.0062974,0.0043224,-0.0024772,-0.0016976,0.0037458,0.0035266,-0.0179434,0.0006182,-0.0091204,0.0037594,-0.0054126
Dr_Maul
11-08-2021, 07:01 PM
This model is better according to Pine. You can remove HRV IA and leave only Etruscan
Levant component in question will be more or less the same. I simply avoided the Iron age averages in general because of their slightly mixed nature
I wasn't referring to Ancients tho. Academics put the modern Levant at almost fully M67 / M92.
What paper(s) are you alluding to?
This model is better according to Pine. You can remove HRV IA and leave only Etruscan
Levant_Beirut_IAIII,0.0879282,0.1524565,-0.0486488,-0.0910456,-0.0101942,-0.0317236,-0.0037306,-0.0098649,0.010124,0.0135538,0.0061304,-0.0041964,0.0116699,0.0030104,-0.0105864,0.0012099,1.64e-05,0.0007285,0.0025766,-0.0008755,0.0024332,0.0045751,-0.0034355,-0.0011446,-0.0020656
POL_Bodzia_VA,0.1315794,0.1273474,0.0807038,0.0682 176,0.0445004,0.027889,-0.0013162,0.0068766,0.0020452,-0.021759,-0.0045468,-0.001019,0.0072844,0.013267,-0.0029042,0.0041632,0.0007564,-0.004434,0.004676,0.0040772,0.0002494,-0.0010386,0.0006162,-0.0007472,0.00091
RUS_Kurevanikha_VA,0.127482,0.122879,0.078818,0.07 2029,0.044931,0.037092,0.004935,0.016615,-0.0045,-0.030616,-0.000974,-0.01154,0.019029,0.024772,-0.0095,-0.001326,-0.001956,-0.003167,0.009553,5e-04,-0.001747,-0.003215,0.010476,0.00241,0.004191
ITA_Etruscan,0.126913,0.153853,0.034695,-0.014212,0.0417,-0.005299,0.0024675,-0.002769,0.019839,0.0343515,-0.0023545,0.014237,-0.014792,-0.004335,-0.00475,-0.007823,-0.0028035,0.0052575,0.011564,-0.001188,-0.002558,0.003771,-6.15e-05,-0.0004215,-0.002694
DEU_MA_Alemannic,0.1301377,0.130326,0.0642363,0.05 31873,0.0370327,0.0162687,0.0073633,0.0052307,-0.001227,0.0023087,-0.0040053,0.0096913,-0.017344,-0.009725,0.0237963,0.0143197,0.0031727,0.0040117,0 .003855,0.004919,0.0058647,0.004493,-0.002999,0.014058,-0.0012773
HRV_IA,0.132035,0.151314,0.033941,-0.01615,0.024928,-0.005857,-0.006345,0.007154,0.003681,0.028976,0.001786,0.011 69,-0.02111,-0.001376,-0.005972,-0.008486,-0.006519,0.004941,0.005531,-0.014257,-0.001872,0.00507,0.001479,0.00253,0.003353
RUS_Alan_MA,0.1099532,0.1045994,-0.025418,-0.0089794,-0.0262818,0.0051316,0.0054522,-0.0072458,-0.0456908,-0.0248206,0.0028256,0.0098314,-0.0166796,-0.0065784,0.005809,-0.002758,0.005372,-0.0059036,-0.0057318,0.0034768,0.003893,0.006529,0.0015532,-0.0004094,-0.0036644
CHN_Layi_1400BP,0.017073,-0.426522,-0.038466,-0.053295,0.129255,0.060519,-0.00141,-0.022153,-0.020452,-0.00656,0.015427,0.013788,0.001487,0.001789,0.0150 65,0.011668,-0.008345,-0.007855,0.003394,-0.008754,0.029448,-0.002597,0.013927,0.007953,0.005628
Canary_Islands_Guanche,-0.0393828,0.1314096,-0.0023384,-0.0687344,0.0337292,-0.0363672,-0.0299874,0.008261,0.0708878,0.0305428,0.0075674,-0.0059948,0.0182554,-0.0176982,0.0232082,-0.0130468,0.0031814,-0.019206,-0.044321,0.010405,-0.0134762,-0.0377142,0.0232692,-0.0011806,0.0046224
KAZ_Nomad_MA,0.067611,-0.1968096,0.050383,0.0102714,-0.0504708,-0.0099284,0.0125966,0.0103842,-0.0088764,-0.0076176,-0.0159142,-0.0009892,-0.0021408,-0.0150008,0.0062974,0.0043224,-0.0024772,-0.0016976,0.0037458,0.0035266,-0.0179434,0.0006182,-0.0091204,0.0037594,-0.0054126
It depends on what Greek component is used. HRV_IA there just serves as Iron Age Greek, as we don't have those ancients yet. Some Greek types will bring up the Levantine; others will lower it. I'm open to my Judean % being 35%.
SUPREEEEEME
11-09-2021, 07:03 AM
I wasn't referring to Ancients tho. Academics put the modern Levant at almost fully M67 / M92.
That's not quite the case - I remember seeing a graphic (not sure as to its validity) that had J-L24 as the largest J2a group in the Levant. Whether it's true or not remains to be seen, but it wouldn't be too surprising considering that the modern paper that discussed J-L24 originating in Iran (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0041252) showed that J-L24 is most frequent in the Levant and Iran.
I know from my own clade, J-L70, it is pretty common and very diverse in the Levant. All of J-Z387's branches have early split-off branches in the Levant.
J-Z438 and J-PF4888 are the branches that migrated West from Iran, and both are common in the modern Levant.
Dunai
11-09-2021, 07:29 AM
Generally they are around 45% Levantine, 40-50% depending on the source
https://i.ibb.co/kBvbgB5/a.png
Interesting, which tool have you used? I made my custom calculator on dozens of regions from around the world based on averages found on K13 updated and it is pretty good at approximating Eurasian populations and even if the distance is quite high (5+) it doesn't find such high percentage of Levantine ancestry in modern day Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews, even I believed they will score more before running the calculator. However no one can deny that they don't have significant Levantine-like ancestry, 25-35% is pretty significant proportion after all, even if Ashkenazis seem to be much more Southern European-like than Sephardis, who probably preserved better their ancient ancestry from the Levante.
Dr_Maul
11-09-2021, 03:27 PM
Interesting, which tool have you used? I made my custom calculator on dozens of regions from around the world based on averages found on K13 updated and it is pretty good at approximating Eurasian populations and even if the distance is quite high (5+) it doesn't find such high percentage of Levantine ancestry in modern day Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews, even I believed they will score more before running the calculator. However no one can deny that they don't have significant Levantine-like ancestry, 25-35% is pretty significant proportion after all, even if Ashkenazis seem to be much more Southern European-like than Sephardis, who probably preserved better their ancient ancestry from the Levante.
Just G25. I find it infinitely more accurate than GEDmatch to be honest. And I think 40-50% is in line with studies on Jews as well, although I am not sure because I haven't read any regarding their autosomal DNA
Dr_Maul
11-09-2021, 03:32 PM
That's not quite the case - I remember seeing a graphic (not sure as to its validity) that had J-L24 as the largest J2a group in the Levant. Whether it's true or not remains to be seen, but it wouldn't be too surprising considering that the modern paper that discussed J-L24 originating in Iran (https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0041252) showed that J-L24 is most frequent in the Levant and Iran.
I know from my own clade, J-L70, it is pretty common and very diverse in the Levant. All of J-Z387's branches have early split-off branches in the Levant.
J-Z438 and J-PF4888 are the branches that migrated West from Iran, and both are common in the modern Levant.
I won't get into Iran because it is a whole other animal when it comes to J2a diversity and whatnot, but for the levant:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2427286/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668035/
Dr_Maul
11-09-2021, 03:33 PM
What paper(s) are you alluding to?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2427286/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668035/
It depends on what Greek component is used. HRV_IA there just serves as Iron Age Greek, as we don't have those ancients yet. Some Greek types will bring up the Levantine; others will lower it. I'm open to my Judean % being 35%.
Can someone upload that Iron Age Croatian sample to GED? I'm curious about his East Med and Baltic percentage.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2427286/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668035/
Haven't read it, but almost nothing from that long ago has aged well.
Can someone upload that Iron Age Croatian sample to GED? I'm curious about his East Med and Baltic percentage.
You have it in G25. It's better than Gedmatch, especially for ancients.
A Russian Jewish woman. Her Middle Eastern scores are very high but oddly enough her European ones are not low either.
North_Atlantic 14.16 Pct
Baltic 12.03 Pct
West_Med 15.58 Pct
West_Asian 9.2 Pct
East_Med 39.12 Pct
Red_Sea 6.75 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.87 Pct
Amerindian 0.19 Pct
Oceanian 1.34 Pct
Northeast_African 0.73 Pct
Sub-Saharan -
North_Sea 11.53 Pct
Atlantic 10.6 Pct
Baltic 4.24 Pct
Eastern_Euro 8.25 Pct
West_Med 10.6 Pct
West_Asian 12.64 Pct
East_Med 31.41 Pct
Red_Sea 8.44 Pct
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian 0.07 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian 1.05 Pct
Northeast_African 1.17 Pct
Sub-Saharan -
Gedrosia 3.31 Pct
Siberian 0.87 Pct
Northwest_African 4.21 Pct
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 22.99 Pct
North_European 16.65 Pct
South_Asian 1.28 Pct
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 15.9 Pct
East_Asian -
Caucasus 34.78 Pct
Sub_Saharan -
A Russian Jewish woman. Her Middle Eastern scores are very high but oddly enough her European ones are not low either.
North_Atlantic 14.16 Pct
Baltic 12.03 Pct
West_Med 15.58 Pct
West_Asian 9.2 Pct
East_Med 39.12 Pct
Red_Sea 6.75 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.87 Pct
Amerindian 0.19 Pct
Oceanian 1.34 Pct
Northeast_African 0.73 Pct
Sub-Saharan -
North_Sea 11.53 Pct
Atlantic 10.6 Pct
Baltic 4.24 Pct
Eastern_Euro 8.25 Pct
West_Med 10.6 Pct
West_Asian 12.64 Pct
East_Med 31.41 Pct
Red_Sea 8.44 Pct
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian 0.07 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian 1.05 Pct
Northeast_African 1.17 Pct
Sub-Saharan -
Gedrosia 3.31 Pct
Siberian 0.87 Pct
Northwest_African 4.21 Pct
Southeast_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 22.99 Pct
North_European 16.65 Pct
South_Asian 1.28 Pct
East_African -
Southwest_Asian 15.9 Pct
East_Asian -
Caucasus 34.78 Pct
Sub_Saharan -
"Russian Jew" is pretty meaningless. It looks like majority of her ancestry is from Ukraine. Post her Eurogenes K36.
"Russian Jew" is pretty meaningless. It looks like majority of her ancestry is from Ukraine. Post her Eurogenes K36.
How do you determine whether someone (Jewish) is from Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, Lithuania or Romania? Eastern Ashkenazim all seem very similar, obviously with some natural, individual variation. Jews have little Eastern Euro admixture anyway, just residents of the region.
Mind you K36 is even less reliable with the V5 chip and high K calculators are overall much less stable
Amerindian -
Arabian 6.09 Pct
Armenian 2.84 Pct
Basque 3.34 Pct
Central_African -
Central_Euro 0.86 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 6.22 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro -
East_Med 20.17 Pct
Eastern_Euro 3.68 Pct
Fennoscandian -
French 1.5 Pct
Iberian 9.15 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 14.42 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 14.64 Pct
North_African 2.91 Pct
North_Atlantic 2.74 Pct
North_Caucasian -
North_Sea 3.73 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 4.41 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian 3.3 Pct
West_Med -
How do you determine whether someone (Jewish) is from Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, Lithuania or Romania? Eastern Ashkenazim all seem very similar, obviously with some natural, individual variation. Jews have little Eastern Euro admixture anyway, just residents of the region.
Mind you K36 is even less reliable with the V5 chip and high K calculators are overall much less stable
Amerindian -
Arabian 6.09 Pct
Armenian 2.84 Pct
Basque 3.34 Pct
Central_African -
Central_Euro 0.86 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 6.22 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro -
East_Med 20.17 Pct
Eastern_Euro 3.68 Pct
Fennoscandian -
French 1.5 Pct
Iberian 9.15 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 14.42 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 14.64 Pct
North_African 2.91 Pct
North_Atlantic 2.74 Pct
North_Caucasian -
North_Sea 3.73 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 4.41 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian 3.3 Pct
West_Med -
It's possible to tell apart Eastern Ashkenazi groups on average. Sure, you'll be wrong a lot of the time, but it's possible and some people are extreme examples of certain Eastern Ashkenazi subtypes. V5 sucks with all of Gedmatch, btw, not just that specific calculator. The autosomal differences follow linguistic differences btw. Northeastern Ashkenazim (speakers of Northeastern Yiddish) have more Mesopotamian/West Asian and East Asian affinity than Southeastern Ashkenazim (speakers of Southeastern Yiddish). Her Baltic score made her very likely Eastern Ashkenazi and her low East Asian and low West Asian scores make her very likely Southeastern. But, this is V5, so it can fuck shit up. You should also look at the EastMed/WestAsian ratio. It's higher in Southeastern Jews.
It's possible to tell apart Eastern Ashkenazi groups on average. Sure, you'll be wrong a lot of the time, but it's possible and some people are extreme examples of certain Eastern Ashkenazi subtypes. V5 sucks with all of Gedmatch, btw, not just that specific calculator. The autosomal differences follow linguistic differences btw. Northeastern Ashkenazim (speakers of Northeastern Yiddish) have more Mesopotamian/West Asian and East Asian affinity than Southeastern Ashkenazim (speakers of Southeastern Yiddish). Her Baltic score made her very likely Eastern Ashkenazi and her low East Asian and low West Asian scores make her very likely Southeastern. But, this is V5, so it can fuck shit up. You should also look at the EastMed/WestAsian ratio. It's higher in Southeastern Jews.
Interesting, I had no idea about such differences. Do they exist because of assimilated Sephardim in certain parts of the region? Russian oligarch Vladimir Gusinsky obtained a Spanish passport after he supposedly proved he had Sephardic ancestry. I guess he just bought it :D
Interesting, I had no idea about such differences. Do they exist because of assimilated Sephardim in certain parts of the region? Russian oligarch Vladimir Gusinsky obtained a Spanish passport after he supposedly proved he had Sephardic ancestry. I guess he just bought it :D
It's a mystery right now. Numerous possibilities exist. The way it's being looked at is why Northeastern Jews (Litvaks) have elevated West and East Asian. Numerous guesses: Crimean Karaite admixture, Higher % of East Knaanic ancestry (Jews in the region who predated Ashkenazi arrivals), migration of Mizrachim (maybe Mizrachi Radhanites who brought East Asian wives with them). It's unknown right now, but the evidence is currently pointing at a higher fraction of East Knaanic ancestry.
It's a mystery right now. Numerous possibilities exist. The way it's being looked at is why Northeastern Jews (Litvaks) have elevated West and East Asian. Numerous guesses: Crimean Karaite admixture, Higher % of East Knaanic ancestry (Jews in the region who predated Ashkenazi arrivals), migration of Mizrachim (maybe Mizrachi Radhanites who brought East Asian wives with them). It's unknown right now, but the evidence is currently pointing at a higher fraction of East Knaanic ancestry.
Lukasz told me most Jews came to Poland during and after the rule of Casimir the Great (1333-1370). I really doubt there were any Mizrahim in modern Belarus or Lithuania in the year 1000, for example.
Figaro
11-20-2021, 08:30 PM
It's a mystery right now. Numerous possibilities exist. The way it's being looked at is why Northeastern Jews (Litvaks) have elevated West and East Asian. Numerous guesses: Crimean Karaite admixture, Higher % of East Knaanic ancestry (Jews in the region who predated Ashkenazi arrivals), migration of Mizrachim (maybe Mizrachi Radhanites who brought East Asian wives with them). It's unknown right now, but the evidence is currently pointing at a higher fraction of East Knaanic ancestry.
I’m so fascinated by the idea of the Knaanim...too bad we do not know a lot more about them, but we may make some guesses about them with realistic certainty. Also; is it “still” the case that the EA within AJ’s is Cantonese?
Lukasz told me most Jews came to Poland during and after the rule of Casimir the Great (1333-1370). I really doubt there were any Mizrahim in modern Belarus or Lithuania in the year 1000, for example.
Jews certainly existed in Eastern Europe prior to the 1300's. Here is an example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_of_Kiev
Right now, it seems likely that they came from Byzantine/Crimean territory. There is a lot more on this.
I’m so fascinated by the idea of the Knaanim...too bad we do not know a lot more about them, but we may make some guesses about them with realistic certainty. Also; is it “still” the case that the EA within AJ’s is Cantonese?
M33c2 still is most likely to be Chinese. N9a3 isn't as clear. There is also at least one other tiny clade in A.
In Mexico, the average mena/west asian /levantine Is the same as the average African sub-saharan admixture 1-6%
But Spaniards simply deny this facts. Modern Spaniards don't share west asian ancestry North African yes but not west asian, mean while Mexicans do get Jew/levantine matches (Palestinian/Jews etc) both on DNA testing and gedmatch.
I noticed that too. Why is that Levantine admixture and having Ashkenazi matches so common in Mexicans?
I noticed that too. Why is that Levantine admixture and having Ashkenazi matches so common in Mexicans?
It's shared Sephardi ancestry.
I could imagine something like 15% Palestine, 20% Asia Minor, 15% Greece, 25% Southern Italy and 25% Central Italy.
Maybe the real composition one day will be found out. There should be possibilities for that, f. i. via direct connections with ancient DNA.
Is the Asia Minor, Turkish? Aren't they just as whole mostly Hellenic Greek? (70-85%). That would then just be mostly Southern European at 79-82%, some Turkic (6-3%), and lastly MENA at 15%.
No one knows about the composition, yet? :confused: I thought Ashkenazis were a highly sampled population.:p
Btw, I think the modeling of 50% Levantine & 50% Italian is bogus, that would only just shift away from the cluster of Southern European. If you had to model 50% Levantine with any European it would be something north western like British or Orcadian. 50% Samaritan & 50% British would model what an AJ would be.
Kenshiro
11-19-2024, 06:04 AM
They plot in the middle of the Mediterranean, between Levantines and SW Europeans. Logic points to them being roughly half Levantine.
They have less Levantine in reality, in many of the Calculators i try for fun, they are less than 50% Levantine, more on 40%, they have also some ancient Greek DNA, probably from Philistines
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