Are Ashkenazis as really Levantine as they say they are?

[Flub]

I've seen someone (an Ashkenazi) on twitter get an imputed update on DNAgenics from 700,000 snps to 30million snps.

From what I remember it went from ~52% Levantine & ~33.0 Italian, ~9.0 British to 72% Italian and 20% Levantine.
This is what I'd expect for a Sicilian or a Southern Italian result.

[RogueState]

That's the thing that always baffled me since I've been on exposed to human population genetics : the fact that Ashkenazi Jews are supposed to be modeled roughly as Half Levantine Half Italian, and end up in terms of phenotype, to look like average Europeans (sometimes some more indeed exotic, but certainly not the majority)

This gap between phenotype and genotype among Ashkenazim has been always suspicious to say the least for me. I do understand phenomenon of "selection" for lighter types in order "to fit in European society", but still, I also do not exclude the possibility that there is an hidden agenda to make Ashkenazim more Levantine than what they really are, in order to give them legitimacy to colonize Palestine, as "indigenous people coming back to their Ancient Israel".

[reboun]

That's the thing that always baffled me since I've been on exposed to human population genetics : the fact that Ashkenazi Jews are supposed to be modeled roughly as Half Levantine Half Italian, and end up in terms of phenotype, to look like average Europeans (sometimes some more indeed exotic, but certainly not the majority)

This gap between phenotype and genotype among Ashkenazim has been always suspicious to say the least for me. I do understand phenomenon of "selection" for lighter types in order "to fit in European society", but still, I also do not exclude the possibility that there is an hidden agenda to make Ashkenazim more Levantine than what they really are, in order to give them legitimacy to colonize Palestine, as "indigenous people coming back to their Ancient Israel".

Human population genetics is fun to read but unfortunately it is also very open to political agendas.

[FinalFlash]

That's the thing that always baffled me since I've been on exposed to human population genetics : the fact that Ashkenazi Jews are supposed to be modeled roughly as Half Levantine Half Italian, and end up in terms of phenotype, to look like average Europeans (sometimes some more indeed exotic, but certainly not the majority)

This gap between phenotype and genotype among Ashkenazim has been always suspicious to say the least for me. I do understand phenomenon of "selection" for lighter types in order "to fit in European society", but still, I also do not exclude the possibility that there is an hidden agenda to make Ashkenazim more Levantine than what they really are, in order to give them legitimacy to colonize Palestine, as "indigenous people coming back to their Ancient Israel".

I've my doubts that they're half Levantine as well.

[Hamilcar]

They aren't :


Unlike the assertion of Need et al. [51] on the midway position, and again similarly to what is seen in table 1, Italians and Greeks are closer to the Middle Eastern populations than Ashkenazi Jews.The same phenomenon is seen in the table of Fst distances of Atzmon et al. [53]. North Italians (Bergamo and Tuscany) are a little closer to the Jewish and Middle Eastern populations than Ashkenazi Jews. The Italians from Tuscany (surprisingly the sample from Bergamo was not used) in Behar et al. [54] are also closer to the Jewish and Middle Eastern populations than Ashkenazi Jews. The Italians from Tuscany are in fact the closest population to Ashkenazi Jews in Behar et al.



The autosomal genetic distance analysis presented here clearly demonstrates that the investigated Jewish populations do not share a common origin. The resemblance of EEJ to Italians and other European populations portrays them as an autochthonous European population. A study conducted in a New York college in the 1920s point to the same Ashkenazi - Italian similarity on basis of physical characteristics. Freshmen were asked before they knew one another to indicate the origin of their fellow students. Forty percent of the Italians were taken to be Ashkenazi Jews, and the same percentage of Ashkenazi Jews was adjudged Italians [24]. EEJ seem to be mainly Italian (Roman) in origin, which is easily understood, considering the historical evidence presented above.



https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/1745-6150-5-57

[rothaer]

That's the thing that always baffled me since I've been on exposed to human population genetics : the fact that Ashkenazi Jews are supposed to be modeled roughly as Half Levantine Half Italian, and end up in terms of phenotype, to look like average Europeans (sometimes some more indeed exotic, but certainly not the majority)

This gap between phenotype and genotype among Ashkenazim has been always suspicious to say the least for me. I do understand phenomenon of "selection" for lighter types in order "to fit in European society", but still, I also do not exclude the possibility that there is an hidden agenda to make Ashkenazim more Levantine than what they really are, in order to give them legitimacy to colonize Palestine, as "indigenous people coming back to their Ancient Israel".

These thoughts are correct.

In 2015 Bennett Greenspan, CEO of FTDNA, openly stated:

"The urgency of our work is magnified by the fact that the legitimacy of the Jewish people and its claim to our ancestral home is currently under constant pseudo-historical attack. The media, particularly on the web, carries regular features from enemies of Israel describing theories to the effect that Ashkenazi Jews have no connection to the land of Israel and are, in fact, European and Central Asian interlopers."

(Quote from here: http://avotaynuonline.com/2015/06/genetic-census-of-the-jewish-people/ )

Ashkenazi Jews (AJ) can be modeled as half Levantine and half Northern Italian. But we all know that people can be modeled in a number of ways. The only thing that must really fit is the biogeographic average of all. So if we use 50% South Italy instead of North Italy, then the 50% Levantine must be changed to something more Northwestern, like Southern Greek. That would yield about the same result in total. I've read a number of scientific papers on this and where AJ are modeled the first mentioned way that I described, there is said that according to "history" a Levantine part is assumed and used for the modelling. So these papers are not scientifically stating something wrong, but they have not determined Levantine, they presupposed it in the modelling. And of course you can then find a fitting model.

I consider the historical applicable Ancestry of AJ still an open question.

I could imagine something like 15% Palestine, 20% Asia Minor, 15% Greece, 25% Southern Italy and 25% Central Italy. And I do mean ancestry that is indigenous to the mentioned regions. I admit this is just an educated guess, but such an ancestry would fit as well.
What makes it difficult to really determine is the fact that AJ have experienced a notable genetic drift in different aspects. The real origins are then visible just very skewed.

Maybe the real composition one day will be found out. There should be possibilities for that, f. i. via direct connections with ancient DNA.

[J. Ketch]

They plot in the middle of the Mediterranean, between Levantines and SW Europeans. Logic points to them being roughly half Levantine.

[Voskos]

...

Well sure but you can be closer to Middle Easterners than an Ashkenazi Jew is and still not have a single drop of Levantine ancestry, technically. (if for example all your ''Middle eastern comes from Ancient Anatolians and Iranics and Modern Armenians for example). In a similar way a Sephardi can be closer to an Iranian than to an Ashkenazi but as long as they share even 10% common DNA from the tribes of Judaea,they can claim being natives to their region. Unlike for example Iranians, Turks, Greeks etc.

[Leto]

Two Iron Age Levant samples and their closest modern proxies

The two samples with G25 (only the top 20 populations)

Distanceto: Levant_Megiddo_IA:I4517
0.02666982 Samaritan
0.03974876 Lebanese_Christian
0.04002367 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.04121079 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.04640117 Karaite_Egypt
0.04735529 Lebanese_Druze
0.04910595 Druze
0.04982760 Iraqi_Jew
0.05179545 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.05182494 Jordanian_B
0.05190980 Lebanese_Muslim
0.05542751 Syrian_West
0.05555264 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.05653229 Syrian_Jew
0.05720268 Cypriot
0.05821434 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.05899895 Palestinian
0.05959488 Jordanian
0.06139334 Iranian_Jew
0.06171172 Syrian

Distanceto: Levant_Abel_IA:I2201
0.02869144 Samaritan
0.03034335 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.03195280 Lebanese_Christian_Greek_Orthodox
0.03267874 Lebanese_Christian_Maronite
0.03305007 Lebanese_Christian
0.04186073 Druze
0.04236012 Lebanese_Druze
0.04696858 Karaite_Egypt
0.04872562 Cypriot
0.04875126 Lebanese_Muslim
0.04892430 Iraqi_Jew
0.04894483 Syrian_West
0.04920559 Jordanian_B
0.05174550 Syrian_Jew
0.05180827 Lebanese_Muslim_Shia
0.05431164 Jordanian
0.05506877 Palestinian
0.05685472 Lebanese_Muslim_Sunni
0.05695429 Cypriot_B
0.05852287 Tunisian_Jew

Distanceto: Levant_Megiddo_IA:I4517
0.07170691 Sephardic_Jew
0.07611385 Italian_Jew
0.08454254 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.09177819 Ashkenazi_Poland

Distanceto: Levant_Abel_IA:I2201
0.06965729 Sephardic_Jew
0.07188294 Italian_Jew
0.07854816 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.08833637 Ashkenazi_Poland
https://pics.me.me/facts-dont-care-about-your-feelings-ben-shapiro-turning-point-32693288.png

[rothaer]

They plot in the middle of the Mediterranean, between Levantines and SW Europeans. Logic points to them being roughly half Levantine.

They plot in the middle between Greek islanders and South Italians. From what you clamed to be logical (I see additional logical possibilities, cf. above) they then had to be roughly half Greek islanders and half South Italians.

[Asten]

the jews i have meet in Switzerland were all white and didnt have the famous nose

[J. Ketch]

They plot in the middle between Greek islanders and South Italians. From what you clamed to be logical (I see additional logical possibilities) they then had to be roughly half Greek islander and half South Italians.
South Italians come from the same mixing event in Italy (Roman Empire) that created the European Jews, between masses of Levantine immigrants and native Italians. That's why they overlap with them. So it doesn't make sense for the Jews to be derived from a populace that didn't really exist before they and other Levantines migrated there. That the Jewish identity persisted and they are overwhelming Levantine paternally shows that they at least had some Judean ancestry, and probably a lot.

[Pietro97]

I met many Jews who looked completely Sicilian/Greek

[Roy]

That's the thing that always baffled me since I've been on exposed to human population genetics : the fact that Ashkenazi Jews are supposed to be modeled roughly as Half Levantine Half Italian, and end up in terms of phenotype, to look like average Europeans (sometimes some more indeed exotic, but certainly not the majority)

This gap between phenotype and genotype among Ashkenazim has been always suspicious to say the least for me. I do understand phenomenon of "selection" for lighter types in order "to fit in European society", but still, I also do not exclude the possibility that there is an hidden agenda to make Ashkenazim more Levantine than what they really are, in order to give them legitimacy to colonize Palestine, as "indigenous people coming back to their Ancient Israel".

They don't look like 'average European' to me and to many others most of the time though. And the Levantine ancestry is very clear in them too. Their lightness is also very exaggerated by people.

[rothaer]

South Italians come from the same mixing event in Italy (Roman Empire) that created the European Jews, between masses of Levantine immigrants and native Italians. That's why they overlap with them. So it doesn't make sense for the Jews to be derived from a populace that didn't really exist before they and other Levantines migrated there. That the Jewish identity persisted and they are overwhelming Levantine paternally shows that they at least had some Judean ancestry, and probably a lot.

I see what you mean. I'd say that people well could convert to Judaism till abt. 393 AD when christianity got state reiligion in the Roman Empire. After that Judaism strongly lost attraction to non-Jews. At that time the Southern Italian population had long formed, including the Levantine influence. This might well to a big degree have come from Phenicians (Punians) and Syrians. You are right, that such an ancestry does not lower the Levantine ancestry. If you look at my proposal, I did there not use the term Levantine, but Palestinian (for depicting original Jews from there). This implicates that an ancestry from Southern Italy would lower the Palestinian (Old Jewish) proportion of ancestry. But yes, it would also implicate Levantine in general ancestry, i. e. including Syrians/Lebanese.

I did aim at the ancestry of Palestians (Old Jews) instead of Levantines, because most people in this context are interested in the question, a how big proportion of original Jews from Palestine AJ might contain and not how many additional converts to Judaism from Syria and Lebanon there might have been.
When is talked about Levantines in the context of AJ ancestry, the public is often taken for granted that this means original Jews from Palestine, which in fact is not the case. So yes, here has to be dealt somewhat clearer with the terms. A good point.

[Leto]

They don't look like 'average European' to me and to many others most of the time though. And the Levantine ancestry is very clear in them too. Their lightness is also very exaggerated by people.
Yeah, a significant percentage of them look like adult actress Abella Danger who is a U.S. born Ukrainian Jew. I apologize for picking this one example of all ;)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e9/ee/a3/e9eea3a9804e0ebdf5edc7cc60878263.jpg
https://moreandmost.com/storage/images/50/a0/44/50a044e49abaae2f535224cf5ff04f50.png

[Leto]

South Italians come from the same mixing event in Italy (Roman Empire) that created the European Jews, between masses of Levantine immigrants and native Italians. That's why they overlap with them. So it doesn't make sense for the Jews to be derived from a populace that didn't really exist before they and other Levantines migrated there. That the Jewish identity persisted and they are overwhelming Levantine paternally shows that they at least had some Judean ancestry, and probably a lot.
Italian Jews which presumably have never left Italy still plot to the South of Calabria, Sicily and Campania.

[Pietro97]

This Brazilian is Jewish

he looks completely italian

this is amazing !!!

https://claudia.abril.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/mateus-solano-42664-1.jpg

[Hamilcar]

Well sure but you can be closer to Middle Easterners than an Ashkenazi Jew is and still not have a single drop of Levantine ancestry, technically. (if for example all your ''Middle eastern comes from Ancient Anatolians and Iranics and Modern Armenians for example). In a similar way a Sephardi can be closer to an Iranian than to an Ashkenazi but as long as they share even 10% common DNA from the tribes of Judaea,they can claim being natives to their region. Unlike for example Iranians, Turks, Greeks etc.

With such logic peruvians with 10% spanish ancestry should start being viewed as native of Spain or afro-americans being native of England. Modern jews are an heterogeneous community mostly tied to each other by their religion that's it,they are not similar to ancient hebrews except a few of them like iraqi jews.

[Hamilcar]

Yeah, a significant percentage of them look like adult actress Abella Danger who is a U.S. born Ukrainian Jew. I apologize for picking this one example of all ;)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e9/ee/a3/e9eea3a9804e0ebdf5edc7cc60878263.jpg
https://moreandmost.com/storage/images/50/a0/44/50a044e49abaae2f535224cf5ff04f50.png


She doesn't look levantine or middle eastern. She'll pass in greece certainly not palestine/lebanon

[Flub]

https://twitter.com/JoshMarks78/status/1389629951842861062?s=20

[Pine]

They aren't :








https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/1745-6150-5-57


North Italians (Bergamo and Tuscany) are a little closer to the Jewish and Middle Eastern populations than Ashkenazi Jews.

This is the problem with quoting a 2010 paper (which I've read). You really want to argue in favor of that statement? What's amazing is that I've only seen Black Hebrew Israelites quote it. It's something you have to dig up when you're looking for that conclusion.

[Pine]

1. Why should we trust any result from DNAGenics?
2. The lowest Levantine estimates come from Jews.

[Pine]

She doesn't look levantine or middle eastern. She'll pass in greece certainly not palestine/lebanon

She'll pass anywhere in the Eastern Mediterranean. Most of those who pass exclusively in the modern Levant have recent Muslim-related admixture.

[Pine]

I've my doubts that they're half Levantine as well.

How true do you think Armenians are to Bronze Age Armenia?

[Hamilcar]

This is the problem with quoting a 2010 paper (which I've read). You really want to argue in favor of that statement? What's amazing is that I've only seen Black Hebrew Israelites quote it. It's something you have to dig up when you're looking for that conclusion.

Tell me exactly what's wrong in the paper pls

[Pine]

Tell me exactly what's wrong in the paper pls

The very statement you quoted:


North Italians (Bergamo and Tuscany) are a little closer to the Jewish and Middle Eastern populations than Ashkenazi Jews.

[Hamilcar]

She'll pass anywhere in the Eastern Mediterranean. Most of those who pass exclusively in the modern Levant have recent Muslim-related admixture.

No she looks south-east european not really middle eastern. Funny how people tend to place every med looking jew in the middle east.

Also what does "muslim-related admixture" even mean ? Lebanese/palestinians are still closer to ancient israelites than ashkenazim.

small example :


We found that the Lebanese can be best modeled as Sidon_BA 93% ± 1.6% and a Steppe Bronze Age population 7% ± 1.6%

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929717302768

[Hamilcar]

The very statement you quoted:

based on what is that wrong ? G25 ? Come on be serious

[JamesBond007]

Human population genetics is fun to read but unfortunately it is also very open to political agendas.

All science outside of physics (nowadays physics is not 100% immune either) is politically and/or economically motivated statistical manipulation.

[Pine]

No she looks south-east european not really middle eastern. Funny how people tend to place every med looking jew in the middle east.

Ok, I'll imagine that she'd be picked apart as a foreigner in Lebanon.


Also what does "muslim-related admixture" even mean ?

Egyptian, SSA, East African, Arabian etc, that which is near absent in Levantine Christians and Samaritans.


We found that the Lebanese can be best modeled as Sidon_BA 93% ± 1.6% and a Steppe Bronze Age population 7% ± 1.6%


I read the paper. Have you? Which Lebanese are they using? Also, are they saying modern Lebanese are 93% Bronze Age Levantine?


Lebanese/palestinians are still closer to ancient israelites than ashkenazim.

It's fun to talk about "closer", because it's sufficiently vague. I'll give you a clear statement. There is a good chance that Ashkenazim have more Judean ancestry than Palestinian Muslims. As for proximity, do you therefore think that Syrian Jews are more Levantine than Palestinian Muslims? Maybe even Romaniotes are more Levantine?

Let's have fun with distances:


Distance to: Levant_LBN_Roman
0.01838542 Lebanese_Christian
0.02065094 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.02621712 Druze
0.02675855 Lebanese_Druze
0.03115637 Samaritan
0.03282556 Karaite_Egypt
0.03398950 Syrian_West
0.03414868 Lebanese_Muslim
0.03479418 Cypriot
0.03934638 Iraqi_Jew
0.04059449 Syrian_Jew
0.04723482 Romaniote_Jew
0.04766807 Syrian
0.04844478 Jordanian
0.05043500 Iranian_Jew
0.05091669 Tunisian_Jew
0.05147650 Palestinian
0.05262774 Libyan_Jew
0.05457822 Georgian_Jew
0.05575312 Greek_Cappadocia
0.05613454 Sephardic_Jew
0.05640320 Mountain_Jew
0.05699305 Assyrian
0.05777028 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.05866135 Greek_Dodecanese

[Pine]

based on what is that wrong ? G25 ? Come on be serious

Don't want to use G25? Tell me why not and tell me what we should use instead.

[Hamilcar]

Ok, I'll imagine that she'd be picked apart as a foreigner in Lebanon.

With such kind of logic I look iranian, mexican, turk, afghan, uzbek, etc




Egyptian, SSA, East African, Arabian etc, that which is near absent in Levantine Christians and Samaritans.

all of this combined isn't comparable to the huge amount of "foreign" admixture among ashkenazim, falasha jews, bene israel/cochin jews, yemeni jews, etc etc

+ christian levantines/samaritans are still more similar to their muslim fellow countrymen than ashkenazim :

Distance to: Lebanese_Christian
0.02503919 Lebanese_Muslim
0.05022272 Palestinian
0.07044542 Ashkenazi_Russia

Distance to: Samaritan
0.04434713 Lebanese_Muslim
0.05201370 Palestinian
0.08947116 Ashkenazi_Russia






I read the paper. Have you? Which Lebanese are they using? Also, are they saying modern Lebanese are 93% Bronze Age Levantine?

It can't be more explicit than this :


Additionally, we sequenced whole genomes of 99 present-day Lebanese individuals with informed consent to 83 coverage on an Illumina HiSeq 2500 using 23 100 bp reads in a study approved by The Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute’s Human Materials and Data Management Committee (13/010 and 14/072).

and yes modern lebanese can be modelled as 93% Sidon_BA :


We next tested a model of the present-day Lebanese as a mixture of Sidon_BA and any other ancient Eurasian population using qpAdm. We found that the Lebanese can be best modeled as Sidon_BA 93% 5 1.6% and a Steppe Bronze Age population 7% 5 1.6% (Figure 3C; Table S6).



It's fun to talk about "closer", because it's sufficiently vague. I'll give you a clear statement. There is a good chance that Ashkenazim have more Judean ancestry than Palestinian Muslims. As for proximity, do you therefore think that Syrian Jews are more Levantine than Palestinian Muslims? Maybe even Romaniotes are more Levantine?

Let's have fun with distances:


Distance to: Levant_LBN_Roman
0.01838542 Lebanese_Christian
0.02065094 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.02621712 Druze
0.02675855 Lebanese_Druze
0.03115637 Samaritan
0.03282556 Karaite_Egypt
0.03398950 Syrian_West
0.03414868 Lebanese_Muslim
0.03479418 Cypriot
0.03934638 Iraqi_Jew
0.04059449 Syrian_Jew
0.04723482 Romaniote_Jew
0.04766807 Syrian
0.04844478 Jordanian
0.05043500 Iranian_Jew
0.05091669 Tunisian_Jew
0.05147650 Palestinian
0.05262774 Libyan_Jew
0.05457822 Georgian_Jew
0.05575312 Greek_Cappadocia
0.05613454 Sephardic_Jew
0.05640320 Mountain_Jew
0.05699305 Assyrian
0.05777028 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.05866135 Greek_Dodecanese


Since when are syrian and romaniote jews ashkenazim ? Also why using this sample while we have better samples like these :

Distance to: Levant_Megiddo_IBA
0.04095878 Samaritan
0.05500849 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.05605297 Yemenite_Amran
0.05618770 Lebanese_Christian
0.06148998 Palestinian
0.06175555 Yemenite_Ma'rib
0.06221027 Yemenite_Jew
0.06344557 Yemenite_Dhamar
0.06403306 Jordanian
0.06700187 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.06704191 Karaite_Egypt
0.06707259 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
0.06740875 Druze
0.06803548 Lebanese_Druze
0.06901246 BedouinA
0.06937598 Tunisian_Jew
0.07072620 Lebanese_Muslim
0.07237733 Libyan_Jew
0.07313536 Saudi
0.07339117 Cypriot
0.07418546 BedouinB
0.07504857 Iraqi_Jew
0.07543099 Syrian_Jew
0.07679335 Yemenite_Mahra
0.07877962 Romaniote_Jew


Distance to: Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.02463971 Samaritan
0.03494210 Lebanese_Christian
0.03741919 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.04507980 Lebanese_Druze
0.04546741 Druze
0.04832937 Karaite_Egypt
0.04955091 Iraqi_Jew
0.05019794 Lebanese_Muslim
0.05104037 Kurdish_Jew
0.05459481 Cypriot
0.05513978 Jordanian
0.05522839 Palestinian
0.05837496 Syrian_Jew
0.06138097 Syrian
0.06265388 Iranian_Jew
0.06356211 Tunisian_Jew
0.06587753 Yemenite_Amran
0.06601152 Libyan_Jew
0.06640578 Romaniote_Jew
0.06813086 BedouinA
0.06859755 Mountain_Jew
0.06955056 Georgian_Jew
0.07001433 Iraqi
0.07036951 Assyrian
0.07333288 Greek_Cappadocia

Distance to: Levant_Sidon_MBA
0.02163410 Samaritan
0.03195107 Lebanese_Christian
0.03386762 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.04151007 Lebanese_Druze
0.04246221 Druze
0.04339633 Karaite_Egypt
0.04670863 Lebanese_Muslim
0.04908774 Iraqi_Jew
0.04917416 Palestinian
0.04978119 Jordanian
0.05141122 Kurdish_Jew
0.05182379 Cypriot
0.05407031 Syrian_Jew
0.05765452 Tunisian_Jew
0.05796628 Syrian
0.06024612 Libyan_Jew
0.06174472 Romaniote_Jew
0.06296443 BedouinA
0.06306464 Iranian_Jew
0.06512261 Yemenite_Amran
0.06798999 Iraqi
0.06895342 Georgian_Jew
0.06906916 Mountain_Jew
0.06967545 Sephardic_Jew
0.07031022 Assyrian



Ashkenazi jews don't even appear in the top 25 lol

[XenophobicPrussian]

They aren't :








https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/1745-6150-5-57
lol imagine posting a genetic study from 2010 as proof of anything. Population ancestral genetics was in its infancy in 2010. They probably used 300 SNPs. All the bolded is absolutely false, you probably even know it too but anything to try and justify whining about Palestine.

Ashkenazis are 60% Levantine(specifically Samaritan-like), 35% Italian, 5% Polish/German/French.

[happycow]

:popcorn:

[Pine]

With such kind of logic I look iranian, mexican, turk, afghan, uzbek, etc

So she passes as Lebanese without looking Lebanese.






all of this combined isn't comparable to the huge amount of "foreign" admixture among ashkenazim, falasha jews, bene israel/cochin jews, yemeni jews, etc etc

It is. There is a lot of admixture in Palestinian Muslims. We've been over this before.


+ christian levantines/samaritans are still more similar to their muslim fellow countrymen than ashkenazim :

Distance to: Lebanese_Christian
0.02503919 Lebanese_Muslim
0.05022272 Palestinian
0.07044542 Ashkenazi_Russia

Distance to: Samaritan
0.04434713 Lebanese_Muslim
0.05201370 Palestinian
0.08947116 Ashkenazi_Russia




I'm not interested in distances and neither are you. You're making statements about ancestry.




It can't be more explicit than this :

Are you aware the Lebanese differ by religion?



and yes modern lebanese can be modelled as 93% Sidon_BA :

The authors state that they can be modelled that way. Do you suppose they think a Steppe population mated with Canaanites in the Bronze Age?






Since when are syrian and romaniote jews ashkenazim ? Also why using this sample while we have better samples like these :

Distance to: Levant_Megiddo_IBA
0.04095878 Samaritan
0.05500849 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.05605297 Yemenite_Amran
0.05618770 Lebanese_Christian
0.06148998 Palestinian
0.06175555 Yemenite_Ma'rib
0.06221027 Yemenite_Jew
0.06344557 Yemenite_Dhamar
0.06403306 Jordanian
0.06700187 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.06704191 Karaite_Egypt
0.06707259 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
0.06740875 Druze
0.06803548 Lebanese_Druze
0.06901246 BedouinA
0.06937598 Tunisian_Jew
0.07072620 Lebanese_Muslim
0.07237733 Libyan_Jew
0.07313536 Saudi
0.07339117 Cypriot
0.07418546 BedouinB
0.07504857 Iraqi_Jew
0.07543099 Syrian_Jew
0.07679335 Yemenite_Mahra
0.07877962 Romaniote_Jew


Distance to: Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.02463971 Samaritan
0.03494210 Lebanese_Christian
0.03741919 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.04507980 Lebanese_Druze
0.04546741 Druze
0.04832937 Karaite_Egypt
0.04955091 Iraqi_Jew
0.05019794 Lebanese_Muslim
0.05104037 Kurdish_Jew
0.05459481 Cypriot
0.05513978 Jordanian
0.05522839 Palestinian
0.05837496 Syrian_Jew
0.06138097 Syrian
0.06265388 Iranian_Jew
0.06356211 Tunisian_Jew
0.06587753 Yemenite_Amran
0.06601152 Libyan_Jew
0.06640578 Romaniote_Jew
0.06813086 BedouinA
0.06859755 Mountain_Jew
0.06955056 Georgian_Jew
0.07001433 Iraqi
0.07036951 Assyrian
0.07333288 Greek_Cappadocia

Distance to: Levant_Sidon_MBA
0.02163410 Samaritan
0.03195107 Lebanese_Christian
0.03386762 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.04151007 Lebanese_Druze
0.04246221 Druze
0.04339633 Karaite_Egypt
0.04670863 Lebanese_Muslim
0.04908774 Iraqi_Jew
0.04917416 Palestinian
0.04978119 Jordanian
0.05141122 Kurdish_Jew
0.05182379 Cypriot
0.05407031 Syrian_Jew
0.05765452 Tunisian_Jew
0.05796628 Syrian
0.06024612 Libyan_Jew
0.06174472 Romaniote_Jew
0.06296443 BedouinA
0.06306464 Iranian_Jew
0.06512261 Yemenite_Amran
0.06798999 Iraqi
0.06895342 Georgian_Jew
0.06906916 Mountain_Jew
0.06967545 Sephardic_Jew
0.07031022 Assyrian



Ashkenazi jews don't even appear in the top 25 lol

Because Ashkenazim don't descend from Bronze Age Israelites, but late Iron Age/Early Antiquity Judeans. Does this mean you think Egyptian Karaites are more Levantine than Palestinians?

[Leto]

Because Ashkenazim don't descend from Bronze Age Israelites, but late Iron Age/Early Antiquity Judeans. Does this mean you think Egyptian Karaites are more Levantine than Palestinians?
How do you model yourself? How much Iron Age Levant do you get?

[Hamilcar]

So she passes as Lebanese without looking Lebanese.

The same way a spaniard or afghan would. Most greeks or italians wouldn't be seen as foreigners in Lebanon either does that make them automatically levantine looking ?








It is. There is a lot of admixture in Palestinian Muslims. We've been over this before.

Depends which palestinians except people from Gaza they aren't that mixed.




I'm not interested in distances and neither are you. You're making statements about ancestry.

With all these "ssa" "east african" "arabian" why are they still close to each other while your folks are still more alien to samaritans ?






Are you aware the Lebanese differ by religion?

What a coincidence ! the 99 samples were all christian ! Yes makes sense, I really see them only taking christian samples (without specifying it) and then drawing conclusions about the whole population.





The authors state that they can be modelled that way. Do you suppose they think a Steppe population mated with Canaanites in the Bronze Age?

No need to play on semantics, they wouldn't be able to model ashkenazim with it and certainly not at 93%. At this point it's just pure dishonesty.






Because Ashkenazim don't descend from Bronze Age Israelites, but late Iron Age/Early Antiquity Judeans. Does this mean you think Egyptian Karaites are more Levantine than Palestinians?

Interesting can you tell us what happened between these bronze age israelites and these early antiquity judeans ? And yes egyptian karaites might be even more levant shifted than palestinians I don't see why would that be surprising, egyptians themselves are already very close to levantines.

[Jana]

No she looks south-east european not really middle eastern.

She doesn't, she looks extremely Jewish. Nothing SE European about her. Especially the second photo.

[Hamilcar]

She doesn't, she looks extremely Jewish. Nothing SE European about her. Especially the second photo.

maybe for you but she still doesn't look middle eastern

[Jana]

maybe for you but she still doesn't look middle eastern

She is similar to Barbara Streisand who has similar features just with lighter pigmentation. It's typical AJ look and it is not European. Maybe not middle eastern either, but that is how many Jews look like.

[Hamilcar]

She is similar to Barbara Streisand who has similar features just with lighter pigmentation. It's typical AJ look and it is not European. Maybe not middle eastern either, but that is how many Jews look like.

you clearly don't know how south europeans look, if this sicilian was jewish/israeli you would have said the same :

https://i.imgur.com/v2NePnS.jpg

[Leto]

She is similar to Barbara Streisand who has similar features just with lighter pigmentation. It's typical AJ look and it is not European. Maybe not middle eastern either, but that is how many Jews look like.
Here she is without makeup.

https://i.imgur.com/iYGanKu.jpg

I can't find a decent profile picture of her (others cannot be posted here). But her nose is far from straight.

[Jana]

you clearly don't know how south europeans look, if this sicilian was jewish/israeli you would have said the same :

https://i.imgur.com/v2NePnS.jpg

I've actually been to southern Italy and yeah, this guy easily passes for a Jew.

[Jana]

Here she is without makeup.

https://i.imgur.com/iYGanKu.jpg

I can't find a decent profile picture of her (others cannot be posted here). But her nose is far from straight.

Her features altogether are clearly armenoid with some mediterranean input.

[Leto]

With all these "ssa" "east african" "arabian" why are they still close to each other while your folks are still more alien to samaritans ?

Average or common Israeli Jewish phenotypes are far from pan-European or anything like that. Those are typically tanned, dark-haired (often wavy-haired) people with black beards and big noses.

[Leto]

Her features altogether are clearly armenoid with some mediterranean input.
Yeah, I agree.
This woman would be a typical European Jew (Marina Weisband)

https://mar.prod.image.rndtech.de/var/storage/images/rnd/sonntag-desk/promi-talk/wann-ist-facebook-problematisch-marina-weisband/689109600-3-ger-DE/Wann-ist-Facebook-problematisch-Marina-Weisband_reference_4_3.jpg
https://www.swr.de/swr2/leben-und-gesellschaft/1632379564070,marina-weisband-102~_v-16x9@2dXL_-77ed5d09bafd4e3cf6a5a0264e5e16ea35f14925.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1407473621296160777/o_yZTeH-_400x400.jpg

[Jana]

^^^^she looks way more European than the first woman you posted. Yeah, agree she is typical fr AJ as well. But she blends in among (southern) Europeans easily.

[Hamilcar]

Average or common Israeli Jewish phenotypes are far from pan-European or anything like that. Those are typically tanned, dark-haired (often wavy-haired) people with black beards and big noses.

Average israeli looks south european while average ashkenazi looks often North/central european. + the features you're describing are found all over the med countries

[Jana]

Average israeli looks south european while average ashkenazi looks often North/central european. + the features you're describing are found all over the med countries

Fantasy. Jews have clear semitic influence in looks and vast majority is dark, and Isreelis look MENA on average.

[Jana]

Average or common Israeli Jewish phenotypes are far from pan-European or anything like that. Those are typically tanned, dark-haired (often wavy-haired) people with black beards and big noses.

He's delusional obviously. Enough to read his posts about Spain.

[Leto]

Average israeli looks south european while average ashkenazi looks often North/central european. + the features you're describing are found all over the med countries
Dude, at least half of Israelis are not even Ashkenazi but Middle Eastern and North African Jews (Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Morocco, Tunisia, etc.). They are not Southern European.

[Hamilcar]

Fantasy. Jews have clear semitic influence in looks and vast majority is dark, and Isreelis look MENA on average.

Fantasy from a croatian woman who clearly hasn't meet any jew in her life and projects her slavic look on south europeans.

These are jews in France for example :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyXaN2VWOJk


The main Rabbi of my city :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC_iao3EyQ0



Random Israelis :

https://i.imgur.com/GRqvLCj.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e_dbsVQrk4


so like I said mostly south euro looking nothing "semitic" about them.

[Leto]

Fantasy. Jews have clear semitic influence in looks and vast majority is dark, and Isreelis look MENA on average.
Would be interesting to see what an Israeli Jewish average looks like. I would use for example people who were born in Israel with two parents born in Israel. It'd probably be something like 50% Polish/Russian Ashkenazi, 25% Sephardic, 25% Mizrahi.

[Hamilcar]

Dude, at least half of Israelis are not even Ashkenazi but Middle Eastern and North African Jews (Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Morocco, Tunisia, etc.). They are not Southern European.

Dude most maghrebi jews came from Spain they are known as "Megorachim" and look indeed iberian :

https://i.imgur.com/k8FdtRg.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Oply55r.jpg

[rothaer]

Fantasy. Jews have clear semitic influence in looks and vast majority is dark, and Isreelis look MENA on average.

Among Ashkenazi Jews in Germany (f. i.) you actually also have some (rather diverse btw.) hard core exotic looks, like

Alfred Fleichtheim:

https://i.imgur.com/1WaihtP.jpg

and Alphons Silbermann:

https://i.imgur.com/wXkE3lC.jpg

[Radimir]

Fantasy from a croatian woman who clearly hasn't meet any jew in her life and projects her slavic look on south europeans.

These are jews in France for example :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyXaN2VWOJk


The main Rabbi of my city :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC_iao3EyQ0



Random Israelis :

https://i.imgur.com/GRqvLCj.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e_dbsVQrk4


so like I said mostly south euro looking nothing "semitic" about them.

Screw Abby Martin, I laughed my bottoms off when RT fired her antisemitic clown ass, hahaha that's ONE of the few good things, Putin ever did right. Then her shitty show Empire Files were cancelled after U.S. sanctions on Venezuela, heheh there is no rest for the wicked indeed.

[Jana]

Fantasy from a croatian woman who clearly hasn't meet any jew in her life and projects her slavic look on south europeans.

Are you for real? I lived in Brooklyn for a year, and Brooklyn probably has more Ashkenazi Jews than any other place in USA or Europe. Not to mention Budapest is full of them.
My parents visited Israel too.

Btw my good friend is only 1/8 Ashkenazi and the rest is Croatian yet she looks 100% like sterotypical European Jew.

BTW2: big amount of South Slavs looks southern European.

[rothaer]

And there are also even pred. nordid types like Avi Primor, former abassador of Israel in Germany:

https://i.imgur.com/tA8tOyY.jpg

[Jana]

And there are also even pred. nordid types like Avi Primor, former abassador of Israel in Germany:

https://i.imgur.com/tA8tOyY.jpg

True, such looks exist too, but it is minority.

[Mortimer]

I think a half Levante half Euro is going to look european

[Leto]

Among Ashkenazi Jews in Germany (f. i.) you actually also have some (rather diverse btw.) hard core exotic looks, like

I believe Jews in Germany are considered a religion, not an ethnic group. Deutsche jüdischen Glaubens.

[Mortimer]

I believe Jews in Germany are considered a religion, not an ethnic group. Deutsche jüdischen Glaubens.

That's true

[Leto]

Alfred Flechtheim looked like an anti-Jewish caricature. Stereotypes usually do have at least some truth to them xD
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Alfred_Flechtheim._Foto_Hugo_Erfurth%2C_1928.jpg/438px-Alfred_Flechtheim._Foto_Hugo_Erfurth%2C_1928.jpg

[Leto]

I think a half Levante half Euro is going to look european
Yeah, in Germany this woman Aline Aboud was presented as "diverse" and "migrantisch" but in fact she is basically white IMO (Lebanese father, German mother), especially given that she is not Muslim (Islam is viewed as culturally non-white BOTH by the Left and the Right)
https://www.sueddeutsche.de/image/sz.1.5329145/1200x675?v=1624816462
https://bilder.t-online.de/b/90/74/64/26/id_90746426/610/tid_da/aline-abboud-sie-ist-die-neue-tagesthemen-moderatorin-.jpg

[Mortimer]

Yeah, in Germany this woman Aline Aboud was presented as "diverse" and "migrantisch" but in fact she is basically white IMO (Lebanese father, German mother), especially given that she is not Muslim (Islam is viewed as culturally non-white BOTH by the Left and the Right)
https://www.sueddeutsche.de/image/sz.1.5329145/1200x675?v=1624816462
https://bilder.t-online.de/b/90/74/64/26/id_90746426/610/tid_da/aline-abboud-sie-ist-die-neue-tagesthemen-moderatorin-.jpg

How do you know all that and speak German? Are you a Russian German?

[Leto]

How do you know all that and speak German? Are you a Russian German?
No, I'm not Russian German but I know German, at least I can read and understand almost everything. Speaking German is more difficult for me.

[Hamilcar]

Are you for real? I lived in Brooklyn for a year, and Brooklyn probably has more Ashkenazi Jews than any other place in USA or Europe. Not to mention Budapest is full of them.
My parents visited Israel too.

Btw my good friend is only 1/8 Ashkenazi and the rest is Croatian yet she looks 100% like sterotypical European Jew.

BTW2: big amount of South Slavs looks southern European.

Yes if we listen to you, you have been everywhere on this planet and have seen every ethnicity. Anyone that has meet them know how european they look, only white supremacists and zionists tend to deny that for obvious reasons.

[Jana]

Yes if we listen to you, you have been everywhere on this planet and have seen every ethnicity. Anyone that has meet them know how european they look, only white supremacists and zionists tend to deny that for obvious reasons.

Stop BSing. Every long time member here knows I spent a year in US. They look armenoid influenced and Europeans don't. Deal with it.

[Leto]

Stop BSing. Every long time member here knows I spent a year in US. They look armenoid influenced and Europeans don't. Deal with it.
And genetically they are a lot more Southern than the average Italians and Greeks. Those nations aren't 35% East Med on average.

[Leto]

Yes if we listen to you, you have been everywhere on this planet and have seen every ethnicity. Anyone that has meet them know how european they look, only white supremacists and zionists tend to deny that for obvious reasons.
The Jews are a separate thing effectively. They don't view themselves as just European or Middle Eastern.

[Hamilcar]

Stop BSing. Every long time member here knows I spent a year in US. They look armenoid influenced and Europeans don't. Deal with it.

they don't, they look very south european :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUHey3oJTrk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpFvX3H2O7w

[Hamilcar]

The Jews are a separate thing effectively. They don't view themselves as just European or Middle Eastern.

They view themselves as middle eastern, a middle eastern community that was in exile for 2000 years.


Stearsolina want us to believe ancient israelites looked like this :

https://i.imgur.com/cZCFeMa.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bx7hWT7.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/fyFIYyo.jpg

[RogueState]

Many don't even look Southern European, but I do agree some look more exotic, but it's not the majority

If you dress them as "standard European", they wouldn't stand out in many Central-Southern European countries

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6twutrGB-c

[Leto]

They view themselves as middle eastern, a middle eastern community that was in exile for 2000 years.

They don't see themselves as similar to Arabs either.

[Hamilcar]

They don't see themselves as similar to Arabs either.

That's because they think most middle easterners are arab invaders lol

[RogueState]

Let's say we dress a group of Ashkenazim with "modern clothes" (no Orthodox), in order to fit in, and invite them as guests in a typical Lebanese wedding party
90% of them would be noticed as "foreigners", less than 10% would be "unnoticed"

While ORIGINAL Jews would fit in for sure with their Levantine cousins :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9OBLOSKHNA

[Hamilcar]

Let's say we dress a group of Ashkenazim with "modern clothes" (no Orthodox), in order to fit in, and invite them as guests in a typical Lebanese wedding party
90% of them would be noticed as "foreigners", less than 10% would be "unnoticed"

While ORIGINAL Jews would fit in for sure with their Levantine cousins :


be careful according to some these levantines have "muslim related admixture" therefore ancient israelites looked more european :lol:

[Roy]

Yeah, a significant percentage of them look like adult actress Abella Danger who is a U.S. born Ukrainian Jew. I apologize for picking this one example of all ;)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e9/ee/a3/e9eea3a9804e0ebdf5edc7cc60878263.jpg
https://moreandmost.com/storage/images/50/a0/44/50a044e49abaae2f535224cf5ff04f50.png


She's sexy and typical Jewish.

[Comealongwithme]

No, no no! There are nobody in the Middle East that you can find that looks like these Jews.

https://media.glamour.com/photos/613a7488c0905435615fec07/master/pass/GettyImages-1124755864.jpg

https://imagesvc.meredithcorp.io/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.onecms.io%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fsites%2F20%2F2019%2F10%2Fphoen ix-1-1.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Evagreen2_%283%29.jpg

https://i.insider.com/60abc6045e345700192651de?width=700

[Jana]

All of these celebrities are half northern European or in case of Eva Green, less than half Jewish. Stop presenting heavily cherrypicked mutts as typical Jews.

Ethnicity:
*Northern Irish, Irish (father)
*Ashkenazi Jewish (mother)

https://media.glamour.com/photos/613a7488c0905435615fec07/master/pass/GettyImages-1124755864.jpg

Ethnicity:
*father – English, with some Scottish, Scots-Irish/Northern Irish, German, Irish, Welsh, and French Huguenot
*mother – Ashkenazi Jewish

https://imagesvc.meredithcorp.io/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.onecms.io%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fsites%2F20%2F2019%2F10%2Fphoen ix-1-1.jpg

Ethnicity: Swedish (paternal grandfather), Breton, French, Sephardi Jewish, Spanish.
Her father is of Swedish, Breton, and French descent. Her mother was born in Algeria, of French, Sephardi Jewish, and Spanish background (considered to be Pied-Noir), with roots in Birkhadem.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Evagreen2_%283%29.jpg

*father – French, English, Scottish, Irish
*mother – Ashkenazi Jewish

https://i.insider.com/60abc6045e345700192651de?width=700

[Targum]

No, no no! There are nobody in the Middle East that you can find that looks like these Jews.

https://media.glamour.com/photos/613a7488c0905435615fec07/master/pass/GettyImages-1124755864.jpg

https://imagesvc.meredithcorp.io/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.onecms.io%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fsites%2F20%2F2019%2F10%2Fphoen ix-1-1.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/Evagreen2_%283%29.jpg

https://i.insider.com/60abc6045e345700192651de?width=700

lol every one has only partial Jewish ancestry; with at least 50% NW Euro ancestry. In other words, you showed people with one European paren and one parent with partial Jewish ancestry

[Defcon2]

All of these celebrities are half northern European or in case of Eva Green, less than half Jewish. Stop presenting heavily cherrypicked mutts as typical Jews.


The Jewish issue is quite confusing, according to ethniceleb she is AJ and Sephardic Jew. Typical person that you can find in the Levant:

https://ethnicelebs.com/melanie-laurent

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMTI5Mjc2MTE3OV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNTc2MzI2Mg@@._ V1_FMjpg_UX1000_.jpg

She looks like you :rolleyes:

[FinalFlash]

They view themselves as middle eastern, a middle eastern community that was in exile for 2000 years.


Stearsolina want us to believe ancient israelites looked like this :



To be fair and avoid heavy bias, some Levantines can easily fit among Ashkies and vice versa. There is that genetic Med overlap that exists. But I do agree in your main point that Ashkies have transformed into something very different over time. As a whole, they don't look native to the Levant region for sure. They are, and do look relatively Southern European when your options are choosing between Middle Eastern or European looking.

[Hamilcar]

To be fair and avoid heavy bias, some Levantines can easily fit among Ashkies and vice versa. There is that genetic Med overlap that exists. But I do agree in your main point that Ashkies have transformed into something very different over time. As a whole, they don't look native to the Levant region for sure. They are, and do look relatively Southern European when your options are choosing between Middle Eastern or European looking.

Exactly and I never denied that a minority among them would fit among levantines but these people really want to push their narrative which isn't in line with what I see on a daily basis. Most look european and are genetically mixed therefore aren't "middle eastern" nor similar to their ancient judean ancestors.

[Voskos]

So Nassbean how do you feel about being indigenous mediterranean subscribing to Arab nationalism? Aren't you ashamed of yourself?

[Arūnas]

Nazis, you say?

[Hamilcar]

So Nassbean how do you feel about being indigenous mediterranean subscribing to Arab nationalism? Aren't you ashamed of yourself?

"mediterranean" has no reality outside of geography + I never subscribed to "arab nationalism" hence why I insist on my berberity despite belonging to an arab tribe.

[Dr_Maul]

They certainly aren't anywhere near majority Levantine by haplogroups (Almost 100% of Levant South IA/BA is J-P58 with some T and E minority, as are modern Ishmaelite Arabs) although some arguments can be made that they are significantly """"West Asian"""" by haplogroups, not that it really matters for a matrilineal society...

[Voskos]

"mediterranean" has no reality outside of geography + I never subscribed to "arab nationalism" hence why I insist on my berberity despite belonging to an arab tribe.


Forgive me but I don't get why a "Berber" would have a fetish for Al-Andalus and on top of that subscribe to somewhat antisemitic views. True Berbers are those who were fighting against Arabs on the mountains of Kabylia till recently.

[Hamilcar]

Forgive me but I don't get why a "Berber" would have a fetish for Al-Andalus and on top of that subscribe to somewhat antisemitic views. True Berbers are those who were fighting against Arabs on the mountains of Kabylia till recently.

"Berber" in the sense that I'm indigenous to North-West Africa. You should start reading more about our History instead of making such statements and since when did I subscribe to antisemitic views ? Saying modern jews aren't exactly similar to ancient jews is antisemitic now ?

[happycow]

Oh nassbean. Never change. :P

[happycow]

They certainly aren't anywhere near majority Levantine by haplogroups (Almost 100% of Levant South IA/BA is J-P58 with some T and E minority, as are modern Ishmaelite Arabs) although some arguments can be made that they are significantly """"West Asian"""" by haplogroups, not that it really matters for a matrilineal society...

I'm not levantine by haplogroup either. :(

[Dr_Maul]

I'm not levantine by haplogroup either. :(

Well, at least tell me you were living in the region prior to WW1 :wink

[Pine]

The same way a spaniard or afghan would. Most greeks or italians wouldn't be seen as foreigners in Lebanon either does that make them automatically levantine looking ?


What's Levantine looking? Show me. Look earlier in the thread - you said she wouldn't pass in the Levant. Also, why the constant focus on phenotypes?







Depends which palestinians except people from Gaza they aren't that mixed.

Outside Gaza, their Levantine % is 20-70%. Like Jews, they differ by model.




With all these "ssa" "east african" "arabian" why are they still close to each other while your folks are still more alien to samaritans ?



I've addressed your misunderstanding before. This is why this is my last reply unless your bring up a new, interesting argument. Here, I created a half Saudi, half Cappadocian and it came out a Levantine. Now you can say a half Saudi/half Cappadocian is more Levantine that Ashkenazim.

Distance to: HalfSaudiHalfCappadocian
0.03172032 Samaritan
0.03799283 Lebanese_Christian
0.04232944 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.04412987 Lebanese_Druze
0.04415307 Palestinian
0.04443695 Karaite_Egypt
0.04453809 Jordanian
0.04486926 Lebanese_Muslim
0.04633613 Druze
0.04781803 Syrian_West
0.05299742 Syrian
0.05350625 Yemenite_Amran
0.05481229 Iraqi_Jew
0.05584973 Syrian_Jew
0.05648361 Cypriot
0.05744598 BedouinA
0.05968701 Syrian_East
0.06023593 Tunisian_Jew
0.06083991 Iraqi
0.06164039 Libyan_Jew
0.06281019 Iranian_Jew
0.06320798 Iraqi_Arab
0.06397582 Romaniote_Jew
0.06477008 Yemenite_Jew
0.06796631 Yemenite_Dhamar





What a coincidence ! the 99 samples were all christian ! Yes makes sense, I really see them only taking christian samples (without specifying it) and then drawing conclusions about the whole population.

What was the sampling?





No need to play on semantics, they wouldn't be able to model ashkenazim with it and certainly not at 93%. At this point it's just pure dishonesty.


To an idiot, nuance is semantics. The Lebanese aren't a mix of Canaanite and Steppe. The authors don't think so. They only point out that the model works well. In reality, their Levantine is lower to make up for the 7% steppe they got from a non-pure Steppe population.





Interesting can you tell us what happened between these bronze age israelites and these early antiquity judeans ?

Almost the same thing that happened to all later Levantine samples, such as the Roman Lebanese and Beirut IA III.



And yes egyptian karaites might be even more levant shifted than palestinians I don't see why would that be surprising, egyptians themselves are already very close to levantines.

See the half Saudi/half Cappadocian above. By the way, I agree that they are, but it's not due to plotting alone. I forget the exact breakdowns, but it's going to be around 60% vs 30% (Egyptian Karaite vs Palestinian Muslim). And there is currently no good reason to think that Egyptian Karaites aren't more Levantine due to Egyptian admixture. I'll give you a hint: they're similar to Syrian Jews.

[happycow]

Well, at least tell me you were living in the region prior to WW1 :wink

The village my parents and their ancestors come from traces back to the 1700's.

[Pine]

The village my parents and their ancestors come from traces back to the 1700's.

One, we'll find G in ancient Levant (trust me). Two, there is a reasonable chance yours is back migration from Carthage. Have you tested deeper since?

[happycow]

One, we'll find G in ancient Levant (trust me). Two, there is a reasonable chance yours is back migration from Carthage. Have you tested deeper since?

I haven't tested deeper. I joined the G-CTS342 group on family tree dna and the guy that runs the group suggested using YSEQ to do it. I had also considered the big y thing as well but its very pricey.

[Hamilcar]

What's Levantine looking? Show me. Look earlier in the thread - you said she wouldn't pass in the Levant. Also, why the constant focus on phenotypes?

Alright let's focus on genomes.







Outside Gaza, their Levantine % is 20-70%. Like Jews, they differ by model.

Which community would score below 50% ?







I've addressed your misunderstanding before. This is why this is my last reply unless your bring up a new, interesting argument. Here, I created a half Saudi, half Cappadocian and it came out a Levantine. Now you can say a half Saudi/half Cappadocian is more Levantine that Ashkenazim.

Is it really comparable to modern levantines ?








What was the sampling?

Send them an email.







To an idiot, nuance is semantics. The Lebanese aren't a mix of Canaanite and Steppe. The authors don't think so. They only point out that the model works well. In reality, their Levantine is lower to make up for the 7% steppe they got from a non-pure Steppe population.

They still can be modelled as 93% similar to Sidon_BA whether one part of it really derives from BA canaanites or not. Can we say the same about your people ?








See the half Saudi/half Cappadocian above. By the way, I agree that they are, but it's not due to plotting alone. I forget the exact breakdowns, but it's going to be around 60% vs 30% (Egyptian Karaite vs Palestinian Muslim). And there is currently no good reason to think that Egyptian Karaites aren't more Levantine due to Egyptian admixture. I'll give you a hint: they're similar to Syrian Jews.

Yes ok but we were talking about ashkenazi jews.

[Hamilcar]

One, we'll find G in ancient Levant (trust me). Two, there is a reasonable chance yours is back migration from Carthage. Have you tested deeper since?

back migration from Carthage ? Based on what are you proposing this ?

[happycow]

back migration from Carthage ? Based on what are you proposing this ?

I went ahead and ordered the G panel from yseq so I guess we may find out. :) I've put it off for quite a while.

[Pine]

I went ahead and ordered the G panel from yseq so I guess we may find out. :) I've put it off for quite a while.

Keep us updated. It's a cool clade. Main guesses are Carthaginian back migration or later North African.

[happycow]

Keep us updated. It's a cool clade. Main guesses are Carthaginian back migration or later North African.

Ok will do!!!

[Pine]

Ok will do!!!

Just read Penninx' write up. A Phoenician origin also makes sense, but I'm leaning Carthaginian.

[Pine]

I'm curious, what do you guys think Roman Era Judeans will look like autosomally? How about early diasporic Jews in Europe? I'd like to hear some predictions.

[happycow]

Just read Penninx' write up. A Phoenician origin also makes sense, but I'm leaning Carthaginian.

Ok I will look it up. :)

[StonyArabia]

"mediterranean" has no reality outside of geography + I never subscribed to "arab nationalism" hence why I insist on my berberity despite belonging to an arab tribe.

Well most Arab speaking North Africans are Arabized Berbers. The Banu Hilal and Banu Salym despite invading with their families, were to small to change the genetic landscape of the larger Berbers. Thy also adopted the religion of the Berber natives, since these two tribes were in fact Shia, hence why the Fatamid Caliph invited them to punish the Berber Zirids for converting to Sunni Maliki Islam. Even if you an Arab ancestor here and there and carry the name of the tribe, the Berber bloodline dwarfs the Arab element. The Arab element in North Africa is nothing more than linguistic and some what cultural.

Plus most North African countries never played an important role in Arab nationalism. Yes there is No Med race, Med culture or it’s just a name of a sea

[Voskos]

The Arab element in North Africa is nothing more than linguistic and some what cultural.

Eastern Egypt and most of Libya (except Tripoli and westwards) are at least 50% bedouin Arab in origin I'd say. Culturally Egypt almost fully, Libya is a mix I'd say.

[Lemminkäinen]

I've seen someone (an Ashkenazi) on twitter get an imputed update on DNAgenics from 700,000 snps to 30million snps.

From what I remember it went from ~52% Levantine & ~33.0 Italian, ~9.0 British to 72% Italian and 20% Levantine.
This is what I'd expect for a Sicilian or a Southern Italian result.

Imputing fails with periphery populations. If your genome is in the middle of continent the rwsult can be very reliable, because you are in continuum to every direction. I
If you are from periphery in any meaning, geographically or genetically, the imputation is less succesful.

[StonyArabia]

Eastern Egypt and most of Libya (except Tripoli and westwards) are at least 50% bedouin Arab in origin I'd say. Culturally Egypt almost fully, Libya is a mix I'd say.

Egypt is culturally Arab, but they are still largely Arabized population. Libya has slightly some Arabian admixture from the Banu Hilal and Banu Sulaym. However Libya is still largely Berber. Indeed Western Libya is very Berber despite being linguistically and culturally Arabized. Recently more Egyptian admixture has entered into Libya in recent years. The western and eastern Libyan rivalry does show that. After You go from Libya Tunisia to Morocco the Arabian admixture is non-existent or heavily diluted by the Berber sea.

[Sloots]

Average israeli looks south european while average ashkenazi looks often North/central european. + the features you're describing are found all over the med countries

Will you stop talking bullshit any time soon?

[Hamilcar]

Will you stop talking bullshit any time soon?

sock account + constant trolling


why are you constantly trying to get my attention ? I won't answer to you seriously so go troll someone else

[Sloots]

sock account + constant trolling

Trolling?
How sick must you be to type these things


Average israeli looks south european while average ashkenazi looks often North/central european

[Meerkat]

Even if Ashkenazim were genetically European, they still make up a minority of both Israel's overall and Jewish population.

That being said, if you look at Samaritans, it's not weird at all. Even some very European look Ashkenazim look less European than some Samaritans. And a lot of non-Ashkenazi Jews look more European than many Ashkenazim as well. I'm Ashkenazi and not very "exotic looking" for an Ashkenazi and yet Mohammed Hadid and Mahmoud Darwish and Edward Said all look more European than i do.

Ashkenazim are very phenotypically diverse, and idk if the"Levantine" side of Ashkenazim is Levantine as much as it's just Levantine on an autosomal level. It might be a mix of West Asian groups that happens to cluster with Levantines. But we are 45-65% West Asian, and a lot of half west asian people don't look West Asian so it's not weird.

And even if Ashkenazim were only 20% or 10% or 5% West Asian, we still have a line of tradition going back to our ancestors. Hebrew is the only surviving Canaanite language. Identity isn't just about genetics, but about traditions and customs and language. Yiddish wouldn't exist without Hebrew and it uses the Hebrew alphabet, which is a Canaanite alphabet.

Someone who converts to Judaism but has zero Jewish ancestry is still indigenous to Israel, for they have joined the people whose traditions go all the way back to the land of Israel. So much of our religion and our culture revolves around the land, and it's been that way for thousands of years.

In Hebrew we use the word MESORAH to describe what we have.

[happycow]

Even if Ashkenazim were genetically European, they still make up a minority of both Israel's overall and Jewish population.

That being said, if you look at Samaritans, it's not weird at all. Even some very European look Ashkenazim look less European than some Samaritans. And a lot of non-Ashkenazi Jews look more European than many Ashkenazim as well. I'm Ashkenazi and not very "exotic looking" for an Ashkenazi and yet Mohammed Hadid and Mahmoud Darwish and Edward Said all look more European than i do.

Ashkenazim are very phenotypically diverse, and idk if the"Levantine" side of Ashkenazim is Levantine as much as it's just Levantine on an autosomal level. It might be a mix of West Asian groups that happens to cluster with Levantines. But we are 45-65% West Asian, and a lot of half west asian people don't look West Asian so it's not weird.

And even if Ashkenazim were only 20% or 10% or 5% West Asian, we still have a line of tradition going back to our ancestors. Hebrew is the only surviving Canaanite language. Identity isn't just about genetics, but about traditions and customs and language. Yiddish wouldn't exist without Hebrew and it uses the Hebrew alphabet, which is a Canaanite alphabet.

Someone who converts to Judaism but has zero Jewish ancestry is still indigenous to Israel, for they have joined the people whose traditions go all the way back to the land of Israel. So much of our religion and our culture revolves around the land, and it's been that way for thousands of years.

In Hebrew we use the word MESORAH to describe what we have.

Long time no see! :)

[Blondie]

Askenazi have diverse looking. These are askenazi jewish music bands from Hungary:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q4bTJ6v9l1E


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSwnatqhKog

Famous hungarian jews (askenazi)

Dávid Katz reporter:

https://m.blog.hu/sp/spiler/image/katz.jpg

Kristóf Steiner:

https://nlc.p3k.hu/uploads/2021/07/steiner-kristof-akkor-most.png

Róbert Fröhlich, rabbi:

https://infostart.hu/images/site/articles/lead/2018/04/1523448494-dN971a41d_md.jpg

Slomó Köves, rabbi:

https://hungarytoday.hu/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/151029KovesSlomo_int0003.jpg

Imre Kertész, writer, holocaust survivor:

https://zsido.com/files/2016/03/Kertesz.jpg

Géza Röhrig:

https://librarius.hu/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/rg_forras_northpoto.jpg

Tamás Deutsch:

https://hungarytoday.hu/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/D_KOS20190716015-scaled.jpg

János Gálvölgyi:

http://ocdn.eu/images/pulscms/NWY7MDA_/63bb37b6a627fbbe1e9dccbf15dfb525.jpg

I have some jewish friend, and i would not say the hungarian askenazis looks middle eastern in general, basically they look very european, many of them are pretty northern shifted.

[TheForeigner]

If you don't believe the studies that say they are in large part Levantine, you may as well believe that all population genetic studies are falsehoods. Why do many people say they can recognize a Jewish face then or Jewish features or the Jewish nose? They are definetly a mix of Levantine and European and some are even as dark as Levantine Arabs, like Gene Simmons of rock band KISS for example.
https://www.swashvillage.org/storage/img/images_2/gene-simmons-biography_2.jpg

[Leto]

This woman (Rochelle Walensky) would be a better example than a certain actress I am guilty of having posted

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1229556535535206402/dqH7QjiG.jpg
https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2021/05/1024/512/Rochelle-Walensky-CDC-Director-Masks-AP.jpg?ve=1&tl=1

She is quite dark, the Levantine ancestry is very obvious in her.

[TheForeigner]

South Italians come from the same mixing event in Italy (Roman Empire) that created the European Jews, between masses of Levantine immigrants and native Italians. That's why they overlap with them. So it doesn't make sense for the Jews to be derived from a populace that didn't really exist before they and other Levantines migrated there. That the Jewish identity persisted and they are overwhelming Levantine paternally shows that they at least had some Judean ancestry, and probably a lot.

This seems like an old theory from before ww2 that I read about before. I doubt though that there is evidence for it. What do you base this assertion on?

[Hamilcar]

Even if Ashkenazim were genetically European, they still make up a minority of both Israel's overall and Jewish population.

That being said, if you look at Samaritans, it's not weird at all. Even some very European look Ashkenazim look less European than some Samaritans. And a lot of non-Ashkenazi Jews look more European than many Ashkenazim as well. I'm Ashkenazi and not very "exotic looking" for an Ashkenazi and yet Mohammed Hadid and Mahmoud Darwish and Edward Said all look more European than i do.

Ashkenazim are very phenotypically diverse, and idk if the"Levantine" side of Ashkenazim is Levantine as much as it's just Levantine on an autosomal level. It might be a mix of West Asian groups that happens to cluster with Levantines. But we are 45-65% West Asian, and a lot of half west asian people don't look West Asian so it's not weird.

And even if Ashkenazim were only 20% or 10% or 5% West Asian, we still have a line of tradition going back to our ancestors. Hebrew is the only surviving Canaanite language. Identity isn't just about genetics, but about traditions and customs and language. Yiddish wouldn't exist without Hebrew and it uses the Hebrew alphabet, which is a Canaanite alphabet.

Someone who converts to Judaism but has zero Jewish ancestry is still indigenous to Israel, for they have joined the people whose traditions go all the way back to the land of Israel. So much of our religion and our culture revolves around the land, and it's been that way for thousands of years.

In Hebrew we use the word MESORAH to describe what we have.

Sephardic jews themselves rarely look middle eastern but tend to look like iberians/italians and I don't see why you brought european looking middle eastern while we're talking about the average look. European looking samaritans and palestinians are a minority like in most MENA countries unlike ashkenazi/sephardic jews where most of them look european.


"tradition" doesn't mean much since we're talking about a religion here not a culture per se. A falasha jew, cochin jew and german jew clearly don't share the same culture. Therefore you can't use it to justify the existence of the State of Israel and if it wasn't really about genetics Afro-americans wouldn't have been discriminated the way they did nor can I consider my ancient ancestors as mine since most weren't culturally similar to me (btw modern Hebrew itself isn't exactly similar to ancient hebrew this includes its modern pronounciation).


All these lies have lead to constant suffering of the native muslim/christian populations of this region and they are treated as second class citizens on their own land by a neo-colonialist western country which base his whole ideology on lies.


The truth is :

Modern jews do not form a coherent and homogeneous community (genetically and culturally). We're dealing with a very diverse bunch tied by religious traditions. They are absolutely not a long lost middle eastern community in exile for 2000 years.
Palestinians/lebanese are native to the region and descend from the ancient israelites.
In terms of phenotypes, most western jews do not overlap with modern middle eastern populations but with the populations who hosted them for centuries.
Historically there has never been any nation called israel (and no "the kingdom of Israel" wasn't a proof of that either)
There is not a single evidence of a massive Depopulation/exile of judeans during the roman era and jewish communities already existed abroad way before any revolt in Judea. The only attested fact was jews being expelled from Jerusalem + of course the war casualties (not even people like Ben Gourion or Ben zvi believed in this)
Historically, it's well attested that most jewish communities were reluctant to hasten the coming of the redemption and consequently the emigration to the source at which it was supposed to be revealed and spread ( we btw see such injunction in talmud, Ketouvot 13, 111)
Historical proofs of mass conversion to judaism are also well attested.
The arab conquest of the VIIth century was actually seen as a liberation by most jewish communities in the middle east ...they all had the opportunity to come back why did they waited the XIXth century to move ? (If needed I can post any source you want on this subject)

[Hamilcar]

This woman (Rochelle Walensky) would be a better example than a certain actress I am guilty of having posted

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1229556535535206402/dqH7QjiG.jpg
https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2021/05/1024/512/Rochelle-Walensky-CDC-Director-Masks-AP.jpg?ve=1&tl=1

She is quite dark, the Levantine ancestry is very obvious in her.


With such logic 3/4 of south europeans are levantine looking.

[J. Ketch]

This seems like an old theory from before ww2 that I read about before. I doubt though that there is evidence for it. What do you base this assertion on?
This recent paper, for one thing:
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.abi7673


The origin, development, and legacy of the enigmatic Etruscan civilization from the central region of the Italian peninsula known as Etruria have been debated for centuries. Here we report a genomic time transect of 82 individuals spanning almost two millennia (800 BCE to 1000 CE) across Etruria and southern Italy. During the Iron Age, we detect a component of Indo-European–associated steppe ancestry and the lack of recent Anatolian-related admixture among the putative non–Indo-European–speaking Etruscans. Despite comprising diverse individuals of central European, northern African, and Near Eastern ancestry, the local gene pool is largely maintained across the first millennium BCE. This drastically changes during the Roman Imperial period where we report an abrupt population-wide shift to ~50% admixture with eastern Mediterranean ancestry. Last, we identify northern European components appearing in central Italy during the Early Middle Ages, which thus formed the genetic landscape of present-day Italian populations.

During the first half of the first millennium CE, we observe a marked shift in PCA space of all studied individuals toward the Near Eastern cline (Fig. 4A), distributed across the genetic space occupied by present-day southeastern European populations. We grouped nonoutlier individuals dating between 1 and 500 CE into the “C.Italy_Imperial” cluster (table S2A). Formal f4-tests reveal its higher affinity than C.Italy_Etruscan to ancient groups from Iran, Africa, and the Near East (table S2C). We then used qpAdm to quantify this group’s ancestry components, where C.Italy_Imperial was modeled as a mixture of the sources C.Italy_Etruscan and 158 published European and Near Eastern genomes from the Bronze and Iron Ages. As a result, the models that were found to fit the data best are those with a 38 to 59% contribution from Levantine or Anatolian populations into the local/preexisting C.Italy_Etruscan gene pool (Fig. 4B and table S4D). Substantial gene flow from the eastern Mediterranean was also reported in ancient individuals from Rome dated to the Imperial period (17). Despite our limited number of data points from the first five centuries CE, the new results suggest that the contribution of nonlocal ancestry in Rome was larger than in Etruria (Fig. 4A). However, this large-scale genetic impact of incoming groups during the Imperial period was not only limited to the metropolitan area around Rome but also extended into the neighboring and more distant regions considered here.

By sharp contrast, all analyzed individuals from the Roman Imperial and Late Antique periods (1 to 500 CE) show a marked shift in ancestry toward populations of the eastern Mediterranean. While the strength of this shift might be influenced by the changing frequency of different burial practices—such as cremation and inhumation—among groups through time (43, 44), it clearly depicts the role of the Roman Empire in the large-scale displacement of people in a time of enhanced upward or downward socioeconomic and geographic mobility. In central Italy, including around Rome itself (17), the incoming ancestry detected so far mainly originated from the Near East rather than other areas of the Empire. The genetic replacement of ~50% of the preceding Etruscan-related gene pool was likely influenced by the movement of slaves and possibly soldiers, along with a larger pattern of human mobility from the eastern Mediterranean toward Italy (45–49). In the Roman Empire, citizenship was progressively extended to more classes of free people until the Edict of Caracalla in 212 made it universal among them, and expanding citizenship likely facilitated intermixture between local and other populations. Our new data from Etruria show that the influx of Near Eastern ancestry spread far beyond the greater capital region itself and suggest that this broader pattern of population movement may have affected larger portions of the Italian peninsula.

[TheForeigner]

Well it says both Central and Southern Italy at least have around half of their ancestry from the Near East during Roman times. Hm, this might explain swarthy individuals among Italians who are far from few and some do look MENA.

[J. Ketch]

Well it says both Central and Southern Italy at least have around half of their ancestry from the Near East during Roman times. Hm, this might explain swarthy individuals among Italians who are far from few and some do look MENA.
Central Italians got later Germanic influence in the post-Roman era according to the paper, which is probably the only reason they don't look fully South Italian and overlap with Jews.

[Leto]

Central Italians got later Germanic influence in the post-Roman era according to the paper, which is probably the only reason they don't look fully South Italian and overlap with Jews.
Was there not a resurgence of local Italic ancestry in the post-Imperial period because rural people had remained less affected by the Imperial admixture?

[J. Ketch]

Was there not a resurgence of local Italic ancestry in the post-Imperial period because rural people had remained less affected by the Imperial admixture?
Maybe, but I've not read of anything significant. From what I've seen, the mass replacement affected both urban and rural locations. Some increased SW Euro-like ancestry since the Empire might have come from mixed Lombards/Goths coming down from the North.

[Leto]

Maybe, but I've not read of anything significant. From what I've seen, the mass replacement affected both urban and rural locations. Some increased SW Euro-like ancestry since the Empire might have come from mixed Lombards/Goths coming down from the North.
I see. Sicily and Calabria may also have additional Greek, Muslim and even Norman admixture from the medieval period.

[mitalit]

Southern Italians have the right to claim and return to the holy land

[Meerkat]

Sephardic jews themselves rarely look middle eastern but tend to look like iberians/italians and I don't see why you brought european looking middle eastern while we're talking about the average look. European looking samaritans and palestinians are a minority like in most MENA countries unlike ashkenazi/sephardic jews where most of them look european.


"tradition" doesn't mean much since we're talking about a religion here not a culture per se. A falasha jew, cochin jew and german jew clearly don't share the same culture. Therefore you can't use it to justify the existence of the State of Israel and if it wasn't really about genetics Afro-americans wouldn't have been discriminated the way they did nor can I consider my ancient ancestors as mine since most weren't culturally similar to me (btw modern Hebrew itself isn't exactly similar to ancient hebrew this includes its modern pronounciation).


All these lies have lead to constant suffering of the native muslim/christian populations of this region and they are treated as second class citizens on their own land by a neo-colonialist western country which base his whole ideology on lies.


The truth is :

Modern jews do not form a coherent and homogeneous community (genetically and culturally). We're dealing with a very diverse bunch tied by religious traditions. They are absolutely not a long lost middle eastern community in exile for 2000 years.
Palestinians/lebanese are native to the region and descend from the ancient israelites.
In terms of phenotypes, most western jews do not overlap with modern middle eastern populations but with the populations who hosted them for centuries.
Historically there has never been any nation called israel (and no "the kingdom of Israel" wasn't a proof of that either)
There is not a single evidence of a massive Depopulation/exile of judeans during the roman era and jewish communities already existed abroad way before any revolt in Judea. The only attested fact was jews being expelled from Jerusalem + of course the war casualties (not even people like Ben Gourion or Ben zvi believed in this)
Historically, it's well attested that most jewish communities were reluctant to hasten the coming of the redemption and consequently the emigration to the source at which it was supposed to be revealed and spread ( we btw see such injunction in talmud, Ketouvot 13, 111)
Historical proofs of mass conversion to judaism are also well attested.
The arab conquest of the VIIth century was actually seen as a liberation by most jewish communities in the middle east ...they all had the opportunity to come back why did they waited the XIXth century to move ? (If needed I can post any source you want on this subject)

Yes but we have a LINE OF TRADITION going back to Mt. Sinai whether or not the details of our "cultures" are the same. You'd be surprised at how similar our cultures are despite some od us being separate for thousands of years. Ashkenazi Jews have a lot more in common with Persian Jews than with Polish Catholics. We celebrate the same holidays and even some of our foods are similar, and we pray mostly the same prayers and read from the same books. Could i say that about Polish Catholics? No.

And it's not true that most modern Jews phenotypically overlap with those who have hosted us for centuries. I know many Ashkenazi Jews whose families come from Germany who cannot pass as anything close to German, and very few Jews from Lithuania could pass for Lithuanian.

There was mass conversions to Judaism in the Himyarite kingdom, but not in Lithuania. Ashkenazim would show high amounts of Baltic and Slavic DNA if that were the case, but we do not.

And where do you think both Christianity and Islam came from??? Where did they build the Iron Dome??

And Jews had constantly been moving to the land of Israel, and many times when they refused to move there, they were massacred by the people of their host nations.

Also most Ashkenazim didn't have the same host nations for very long because we were constantly being expelled.

[Hamilcar]

Yes but we have a LINE OF TRADITION going back to Mt. Sinai whether or not the details of our "cultures" are the same. You'd be surprised at how similar our cultures are despite some od us being separate for thousands of years. Ashkenazi Jews have a lot more in common with Persian Jews than with Polish Catholics. We celebrate the same holidays and even some of our foods are similar, and we pray mostly the same prayers and read from the same books. Could i say that about Polish Catholics? No.

What does that even mean ? Basically "line of tradition" = liturgy so like I said that's not a culture but it's all about a religion. As for the rest I can find such similarities between different ethnicities quite easily and yes you can say the same about polish catholics with whom you shared the same language, same clothings, same gastronomy despite a few "traditional" dishes, you looked pretty much the same, etc etc

The same way moroccan jews weren't much different from their host except when it comes to religion/phenotypes and these jews were closer to your average moroccan muslim than any other jewish community.




And it's not true that most modern Jews phenotypically overlap with those who have hosted us for centuries. I know many Ashkenazi Jews whose families come from Germany who cannot pass as anything close to German, and very few Jews from Lithuania could pass for Lithuanian.

Yes I forgot that south europeans are overall darker pigmented than most north euros and look quite different but still it's quite easy to find ashkenazi jews who would fit among french, germans, poles, english people, etc
I swear if I had to show you the jews I knew you would say I'm cherrypicking or that they represent a minority among ashkenazim they were overall even less dark than southern belgians.


There was mass conversions to Judaism in the Himyarite kingdom, but not in Lithuania. Ashkenazim would show high amounts of Baltic and Slavic DNA if that were the case, but we do not.

And where do you think both Christianity and Islam came from??? Where did they build the Iron Dome??

And Jews had constantly been moving to the land of Israel, and many times when they refused to move there, they were massacred by the people of their host nations.

Also most Ashkenazim didn't have the same host nations for very long because we were constantly being expelled.

They actually show some amount of east european ancestry and we see such influence on their haplogroups too. As for the rest of your answer that's simply false, there wasn't any "constant" movement to the land of Israel by any jews except karaites during the IXth century but they were not followed and were heavily criticized by other communities.

Accept who you are : A mixed community mostly related to south europeans and who profess judaism. Genetically not similar to ancient hebrews and culturally very heterogeneous.

[Leto]

Sephardic jews themselves rarely look middle eastern but tend to look like iberians/italians and I don't see why you brought european looking middle eastern while we're talking about the average look. European looking samaritans and palestinians are a minority like in most MENA countries unlike ashkenazi/sephardic jews where most of them look european.
That is not true. Sephardim are even more Southern than Ashkenazim who are in turn more Southern than any European country or even regions like Sicily or Crete. Sephardim would plot closer to Cypriots than to any European country. And North African Jews are basically Sephardim plus some local NA admixture.

[Pine]

Yes but we have a LINE OF TRADITION going back to Mt. Sinai whether or not the details of our "cultures" are the same. You'd be surprised at how similar our cultures are despite some od us being separate for thousands of years. Ashkenazi Jews have a lot more in common with Persian Jews than with Polish Catholics. We celebrate the same holidays and even some of our foods are similar, and we pray mostly the same prayers and read from the same books. Could i say that about Polish Catholics? No.

And it's not true that most modern Jews phenotypically overlap with those who have hosted us for centuries. I know many Ashkenazi Jews whose families come from Germany who cannot pass as anything close to German, and very few Jews from Lithuania could pass for Lithuanian.

There was mass conversions to Judaism in the Himyarite kingdom, but not in Lithuania. Ashkenazim would show high amounts of Baltic and Slavic DNA if that were the case, but we do not.

And where do you think both Christianity and Islam came from??? Where did they build the Iron Dome??

And Jews had constantly been moving to the land of Israel, and many times when they refused to move there, they were massacred by the people of their host nations.

Also most Ashkenazim didn't have the same host nations for very long because we were constantly being expelled.

There is no point debating Nassbean. You can disprove anything today. He'll claim it again tomorrow.

[Meerkat]

SOME amount of East European ancestry, but not a lot. Jews from Germany usually have very little East European ancestry, and the Jews from Eastern Europe usually have around 10-15%.

Yes Jews were always making Aliyah but often times the roads were dangerous so they avoided it. A lot of people settled in the Levant throughout history, and many of them became Arabized. Arabic is not a Canaanite or Ancient Israelite language by any means, and Islam is not a Canaanite religion. Judaism is thousands of years older than Islam, and Jews have kept their traditions despite having been dispersed into many different communities.

Ashkenazim have a lot more in common with Persian Jews than we do with Polish Catholics. We celebrate the same holidays and read from the same books, and it's normal and acceptable for AJs and Persian Jews to marry each other but it's not commonplace for us to marry Polish Catholics or Muslims.

There is now way on earth that Palestinians aren't a "mixed community" considering so many people have invaded and settled the land. Kurds, Mamluks, Bosnians, etc.

We are genetically similar to southern Europeans on an autosomal level, but that doesn't mean we come from them. Someone who is 3/4 Iranian and 1/4 Northern European will cluster with Sicilians as well.

Palestinians are also "culturally heterogenous," especially considering i don't think that the culture in the Levant has stayed the same at all. And Ashkenazim are 45-65% West asian, but you could deny tjis all you want and that doesn't change the fact that the Palestinians don't speak a Canaanite language and practice an imperialist religion that is cultural appropriation of Judaism.

[Meerkat]

There is no point debating Nassbean. You can disprove anything today. He'll claim it again tomorrow.

Thank you.

[Meerkat]

What does that even mean ? Basically "line of tradition" = liturgy so like I said that's not a culture but it's all about a religion. As for the rest I can find such similarities between different ethnicities quite easily and yes you can say the same about polish catholics with whom you shared the same language, same clothings, same gastronomy despite a few "traditional" dishes, you looked pretty much the same, etc etc

The same way moroccan jews weren't much different from their host except when it comes to religion/phenotypes and these jews were closer to your average moroccan muslim than any other jewish community.





Yes I forgot that south europeans are overall darker pigmented than most north euros and look quite different but still it's quite easy to find ashkenazi jews who would fit among french, germans, poles, english people, etc
I swear if I had to show you the jews I knew you would say I'm cherrypicking or that they represent a minority among ashkenazim they were overall even less dark than southern belgians.



They actually show some amount of east european ancestry and we see such influence on their haplogroups too. As for the rest of your answer that's simply false, there wasn't any "constant" movement to the land of Israel by any jews except karaites during the IXth century but they were not followed and were heavily criticized by other communities.

Accept who you are : A mixed community mostly related to south europeans and who profess judaism. Genetically not similar to ancient hebrews and culturally very heterogeneous.

No it's not. Many Jews in Poland didn't even speak Polish. We made up a language called Yiddish which comes from both German and Hebrew--which is a Canaanite language. And I don't think that Asjkenazim wore trad Polish clothing either; we kept to ourselves and didn't assimilate. A lot of our food is similar to that of other Jews, such as Challah and cholent. Those aren't Polish foods. I'd suggest you educate yourself about Ashkenazi Jewish culture and the history of Jews in Poland.

And even if SOME Ashkenazi Jews from Poland looked Polish, we still aren't Polish because we don't belong to the polish people. And no, the line of tradition isn't just "religion" because it's not like we were Polish and Lithuanian and German people who started practicing Judaism. Ashkenazi Jews and most other Jews come from the same place and have been practicing Judaism before we split off from each other, but you cannot say the same about Muslims around the world or Christians around the world, for both of those religions spread via conquest, imperialism and forced conversions.

And phenotypes do not erase history, and so it wouldn't matter if we all looked like Yitzhak Rabin and Bar Refaeli, which we don't.

And Aliyah is a recurring theme throughout Jewish history. While Jews did immigrate to the region during the Ottoman Empire, other groups immigrated as well. Jews were oppressed by the Mamluks even before the ottoman empire https://www.jstor.org/stable/618879

And nowhere do we see any mention of Arabs referring to themselves as Palestinians back then.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/David-Reubeni

This man wanted to fight the Turks in Palestine and establish a kingdom in Judea, and I wonder where all those Turks went???? Maybe some of em are the ancestors of the people who refer to themselves as Palestinians.

[Pine]

No it's not. Many Jews in Poland didn't even speak Polish. We made up a language called Yiddish which comes from both German and Hebrew--which is a Canaanite language. And I don't think that Asjkenazim wore trad Polish clothing either; we kept to ourselves and didn't assimilate. A lot of our food is similar to that of other Jews, such as Challah and cholent. Those aren't Polish foods. I'd suggest you educate yourself about Ashkenazi Jewish culture and the history of Jews in Poland.

And even if SOME Ashkenazi Jews from Poland looked Polish, we still aren't Polish because we don't belong to the polish people. And no, the line of tradition isn't just "religion" because it's not like we were Polish and Lithuanian and German people who started practicing Judaism. Ashkenazi Jews and most other Jews come from the same place and have been practicing Judaism before we split off from each other, but you cannot say the same about Muslims around the world or Christians around the world, for both of those religions spread via conquest, imperialism and forced conversions.

And phenotypes do not erase history, and so it wouldn't matter if we all looked like Yitzhak Rabin and Bar Refaeli, which we don't.

And Aliyah is a recurring theme throughout Jewish history. While Jews did immigrate to the region during the Ottoman Empire, other groups immigrated as well. Jews were oppressed by the Mamluks even before the ottoman empire https://www.jstor.org/stable/618879

And nowhere do we see any mention of Arabs referring to themselves as Palestinians back then.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/David-Reubeni

This man wanted to fight the Turks in Palestine and establish a kingdom in Judea, and I wonder where all those Turks went???? Maybe some of em are the ancestors of the people who refer to themselves as Palestinians.

You're arguing with a dude who:

-said Naama Issachar looks European
-claims Jews didn't want to return to Israel till Herzl came along
- my latest favorite gem: North Italians are closer to Middle Easterners than Ashkenazi Jews are

[Hamilcar]

There is no point debating Nassbean. You can disprove anything today. He'll claim it again tomorrow.

I can be wrong here and there I don't deny this but overall I'm right about the fact that western jews aren't genetically or culturally similar to ancient jews and the fact that most of them look more european than anything else. Only on such site, I see people denying such obvious facts.

[Hamilcar]

SOME amount of East European ancestry, but not a lot. Jews from Germany usually have very little East European ancestry, and the Jews from Eastern Europe usually have around 10-15%.

Yes Jews were always making Aliyah but often times the roads were dangerous so they avoided it. A lot of people settled in the Levant throughout history, and many of them became Arabized. Arabic is not a Canaanite or Ancient Israelite language by any means, and Islam is not a Canaanite religion. Judaism is thousands of years older than Islam, and Jews have kept their traditions despite having been dispersed into many different communities.

Ashkenazim have a lot more in common with Persian Jews than we do with Polish Catholics. We celebrate the same holidays and read from the same books, and it's normal and acceptable for AJs and Persian Jews to marry each other but it's not commonplace for us to marry Polish Catholics or Muslims.

There is now way on earth that Palestinians aren't a "mixed community" considering so many people have invaded and settled the land. Kurds, Mamluks, Bosnians, etc.

We are genetically similar to southern Europeans on an autosomal level, but that doesn't mean we come from them. Someone who is 3/4 Iranian and 1/4 Northern European will cluster with Sicilians as well.

Palestinians are also "culturally heterogenous," especially considering i don't think that the culture in the Levant has stayed the same at all. And Ashkenazim are 45-65% West asian, but you could deny tjis all you want and that doesn't change the fact that the Palestinians don't speak a Canaanite language and practice an imperialist religion that is cultural appropriation of Judaism.


You suddenly sound less elegant and knowledgeable lol

You can try to make palestinians as much mixed as you want they still are closer to ancient hebrews than any ashkenazi jew whether genetically or physically. Also your claims are not in line with the datas we have, the main european component in ashkenazim/sephardim is clearly south european but seeing how poor your knowledge is regarding this I don't think I'll go further into details.

[Meerkat]

You're arguing with a dude who:

-said Naama Issachar looks European
-claims Jews didn't want to return to Israel till Herzl came along
- my latest favorite gem: North Italians are closer to Middle Easterners than Ashkenazi Jews are

Lmao. Northern Italians are closer to Dutch people than they are to Middle Easterners.

[J. Ketch]

There is no point debating Nassbean. You can disprove anything today. He'll claim it again tomorrow.
Sounds familiar to something I read in a book once...

[Meerkat]

You suddenly sound less elegant and knowledgeable lol

You can try to make palestinians as much mixed as you want they still are closer to ancient hebrews than any ashkenazi jew whether genetically or physically. Also your claims are not in line with the datas we have, the main european component in ashkenazim/sephardim is clearly south european but seeing how poor your knowledge is regarding this I don't think I'll go further into details.

I know that the main European component in Ashkenazim is Southern European, but someone who is 3/4 Iranian and 1/4 Northern European will cluster with someone who is 1/2 North Italian and 1/2 Syrian/Lebanese on an autosomal level, which is what Ashkenazim are ON AN AUTOSOMAL LEVEL.

Palestinians don't have a line of tradition going back to Ancient Hebrews regardless of their genetics or phenotype. And they speak Arabic and have pan-Arab colors on their flag, which represent Islamic dynasties. The Jewish people, on the other hand, have been reading books and praying in Aramaic and Hebrew for thousands of years and Ashkenazim developed a language called Yiddish, which is a mix between German and Hebrew, the latter which is a Canaanite language. We've always prayed towards Jerusalem and we have always had a mesorah that we come from that land. Many of our customs come from the Ancient Israelites, even though they've evolved throughout the centuries.

Palestinians, on the other hand, are Arabized peoples who practice an imperialist religion called Islam, which is a religion that comes from Judaism and was brought to the land, in which Muslim conquerors built Muslim holy sites on top of Jewish holy sites.

If Palestinians are closer to the Ancient Hebrews as you claim, then why don't they just become Jews and start speaking Hebrew and not Arabic?

I think that if your identity as a people was lost, you can't suddenly claim that you're those people out of nowhere, but our Jewish identity has been continuous. And our connection to the land of Israel has always been.

[Hamilcar]

No it's not. Many Jews in Poland didn't even speak Polish. We made up a language called Yiddish which comes from both German and Hebrew--which is a Canaanite language. And I don't think that Asjkenazim wore trad Polish clothing either; we kept to ourselves and didn't assimilate. A lot of our food is similar to that of other Jews, such as Challah and cholent. Those aren't Polish foods. I'd suggest you educate yourself about Ashkenazi Jewish culture and the history of Jews in Poland.


"Group portrait of Polish Jews and non-Jews traveling from Warsaw via Gdynia and Le Havre to the United States."

https://i.imgur.com/Jase8fC.jpg


I can't even guess who's not jew in this group and like I said dressed similarly. Stop lying ffs not even jewish members here will agree with you regarding this.




And even if SOME Ashkenazi Jews from Poland looked Polish, we still aren't Polish because we don't belong to the polish people. And no, the line of tradition isn't just "religion" because it's not like we were Polish and Lithuanian and German people who started practicing Judaism. Ashkenazi Jews and most other Jews come from the same place and have been practicing Judaism before we split off from each other, but you cannot say the same about Muslims around the world or Christians around the world, for both of those religions spread via conquest, imperialism and forced conversions.

You can spit on it as much as you want, you still aren't levantines living abroad either. Get over it you're mixed and again judaism is a religion and only a religion not a culture.






And phenotypes do not erase history, and so it wouldn't matter if we all looked like Yitzhak Rabin and Bar Refaeli, which we don't.

And Aliyah is a recurring theme throughout Jewish history. While Jews did immigrate to the region during the Ottoman Empire, other groups immigrated as well. Jews were oppressed by the Mamluks even before the ottoman empire https://www.jstor.org/stable/618879

And nowhere do we see any mention of Arabs referring to themselves as Palestinians back then.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/David-Reubeni

This man wanted to fight the Turks in Palestine and establish a kingdom in Judea, and I wonder where all those Turks went???? Maybe some of em are the ancestors of the people who refer to themselves as Palestinians.

It actually matters, it means you absorbed so many foreigners you ended up looking like these foreigners and then have the audacity to brutally colonized and expel a native levantine population. And you dare to talk about "imperialism" "conquest" ?


Stop with your constant lies regarding history, arabs called this region palestine for a reason (whether al Kalbi, Al Idrissi or ibn Asakir all used the word palestine to described this region) not even the jewish historian Josephus described it as "Israel".



Anyway if you continue I'll be glad to post all the sources I have, be prepared to have better arguments.

[Pine]

"Group portrait of Polish Jews and non-Jews traveling from Warsaw via Gdynia and Le Havre to the United States."

https://i.imgur.com/Jase8fC.jpg


I can't even guess who's not jew in this group and like I said dressed similarly. Stop lying ffs not even jewish members here will agree with you regarding this.


She's right and one reason you may be having trouble (dishonesty,stupidity, and lack of color aside) is because most people in that picture are Jews.

[Meerkat]

"Group portrait of Polish Jews and non-Jews traveling from Warsaw via Gdynia and Le Havre to the United States."

https://i.imgur.com/Jase8fC.jpg


I can't even guess who's not jew in this group and like I said dressed similarly. Stop lying ffs not even jewish members here will agree with you regarding this.





You can spit on it as much as you want, you still aren't levantines living abroad either. Get over it you're mixed and again judaism is a religion and only a religion not a culture.







It actually matters, it means you absorbed so many foreigners you ended up looking like these foreigners and then have the audacity to brutally colonized and expel a native levantine population. And you dare to talk about "imperialism" "conquest" ?


Stop with your constant lies regarding history, arabs called this region palestine for a reason (whether al Kalbi, Al Idrissi or ibn Asakir all used the word palestine to described this region) not even the jewish historian Josephus described it as "Israel".



Anyway if you continue I'll be glad to post all the sources I have, be prepared to have better arguments.

It's not a very good quality photo and last time I checked, there are Arabs who dress like that too.

But we are genetically 45-65% West Asian and when foreigners are absorbed into the tribe, they're no longer foreigners. Almost all groups of people have people who have assimilated into their group. Where do you think all of the ethnic groups who don't exist anymore went? They assimilated into other groups. Being indigenous isn't just about genetics, but about where your people started, and Jews are also an ethnic group and not just a religion. The land of Israel is where we started as a people. That's where we began, and no amount of newcomers could change that. Archeology shows that the Ancient Israelite kingdoms existed, but does it show that there were Ancient Palestinian kingdoms who spoke Arabic and practiced Islam?

And when did we expel the Palestinians??? They're still living in the Gaza strip, Judea and Samaria and Israel proper last time I checked. Jews were expelled from the region, but not Arabs; they're still living there.

Palestine isn't an Arabic word; it's what the Romans called the region when they invaded, which makes it AN IMPERIALIST NAME. Yes it was the name of a region, but it was home to many groups of people and many have settled the land all throughout history, and it existed way before Arabic became the lingua franca of the middle east.

[Leto]

Let's stick to the genetic discussion, shall we. I see several agendas going on here and I have my own but who cares.

[Hamilcar]

I know that the main European component in Ashkenazim is Southern European, but someone who is 3/4 Iranian and 1/4 Northern European will cluster with someone who is 1/2 North Italian and 1/2 Syrian/Lebanese on an autosomal level, which is what Ashkenazim are ON AN AUTOSOMAL LEVEL.

Source ? Any demonstration to prove this idiotic claim ? And I don't see the point of bringing it if you admit your european component is south european (let's not forget your east european one too).


Palestinians don't have a line of tradition going back to Ancient Hebrews regardless of their genetics or phenotype. And they speak Arabic and have pan-Arab colors on their flag, which represent Islamic dynasties. The Jewish people, on the other hand, have been reading books and praying in Aramaic and Hebrew for thousands of years and Ashkenazim developed a language called Yiddish, which is a mix between German and Hebrew, the latter which is a Canaanite language. We've always prayed towards Jerusalem and we have always had a mesorah that we come from that land. Many of our customs come from the Ancient Israelites, even though they've evolved throughout the centuries.

There is no such thing as "line of tradition" that's another made up expression to make your religion a "culture". Muslim or not, palestinians are indigenous to Palestine and more similar genetically to its ancient inhabitants while you have only your religion to defend your claims.

Are these jews more indigenous to palestine because of muh line of tradition ? :

https://i.imgur.com/oXKMTMJ.png






Palestinians, on the other hand, are Arabized peoples who practice an imperialist religion called Islam, which is a religion that comes from Judaism and was brought to the land, in which Muslim conquerors built Muslim holy sites on top of Jewish holy sites.

If Palestinians are closer to the Ancient Hebrews as you claim, then why don't they just become Jews and start speaking Hebrew and not Arabic?

I think that if your identity as a people was lost, you can't suddenly claim that you're those people out of nowhere, but our Jewish identity has been continuous. And our connection to the land of Israel has always been.


hahaha yes palestinians are bloodthirsty arabs who oppressed the jews who were in exile and came back after 2000 years. Palestinians are simply ancient canaanites who went through process of arabization and islamization/christianization this won't make them any less indigenous than the mixed western jews and all other kinds of mixed jews like the yemenites, ethiopian, indian, sephardic, etc


The only jews I consider native to this region are iraqi and iranian jews + samaritans, the rest are larpers and should stop their comedy because they have already destroyed millions of lives based on their nasty ideology.


Look at these slav looking "israelis" making fun of a woman who got evicted from her home on her own land :

https://i.imgur.com/POjp1w3.png


Imperialism you said ?

[Leto]

Israel has hundreds of thousands of half-breeds from the former Soviet Union, even quarter-Jews sometimes. Many of those people are not considered Jews by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.

[Pine]

Look at these slav looking "israelis" making fun of a woman who got evicted from her home on her own land :

https://i.imgur.com/POjp1w3.png



Waiting for Slavs to comment.

[Meerkat]

Source ? Any demonstration to prove this idiotic claim ? And I don't see the point of bringing it if you admit your european component is south european (let's not forget your east european one too).



There is no such thing as "line of tradition" that's another made up expression to make your religion a "culture". Muslim or not, palestinians are indigenous to Palestine and more similar genetically to its ancient inhabitants while you have only your religion to defend your claims.

Are these jews more indigenous to palestine because of muh line of tradition ? :

https://i.imgur.com/oXKMTMJ.png








hahaha yes palestinians are bloodthirsty arabs who oppressed the jews who were in exile and came back after 2000 years. Palestinians are simply ancient canaanites who went through process of arabization and islamization/christianization this won't make them any less indigenous than the mixed western jews and all other kinds of mixed jews like the yemenites, ethiopian, indian, sephardic, etc


The only jews I consider native to this region are iraqi and iranian jews + samaritans, the rest are larpers and should stop their comedy because they have already destroyed millions of lives based on their nasty ideology.


Look at these slav looking "israelis" making fun of a woman who got evicted from her home on her own land :

https://i.imgur.com/POjp1w3.png


Imperialism you said ?

These are my brother's GEDMatch results

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++
1 Greek + Lebanese + Sicilian_West + Turkish_Aydin @ 1.340193
2 Bulgarian + Libyan_Jew + Sicilian_East + Turkish @ 1.365334
3 Ashkenazi_Jew + Jordanian + Spanish_Northeast + Turkish @ 1.400646
4 Albanian + Lebanese + Sicilian_West + Turkish_Aydin @ 1.421323
5 French + Syrian + Turkish + Turkish_Jew @ 1.426760
6 Cypriot + French + Lebanese + Turkish_Aydin @ 1.456770
7 Belgian + Lebanese + Moroccan_Jew + Turkish_Kayseri @ 1.463297
8 Italian_Bergamo + Sicilian_West + Syrian + Turkish @ 1.471444
9 French + Jordanian + Sicilian_West + Turkish_Kayseri @ 1.493048
10 Italian_Bergamo + Palestinian + Sicilian_West + Turkish @ 1.497350
11 Lebanese + Sicilian_West + Turkish_Aydin + Tuscan @ 1.497997
12 German_South + Jordanian + Turkish + Turkish_Jew @ 1.522573
13 Ashkenazi_Jew + Spanish_Southwest + Syrian + Turkish @ 1.533802
14 Lebanese + Moroccan_Jew + Turkish_Kayseri + Utahn_European @ 1.535919
15 Bulgarian + Lebanese + Turkish_Aydin + Turkish_Jew @ 1.545135
16 English_South + Jordanian + Turkish_Jew + Turkish_Kayseri @ 1.550871
17 German_South + Iraqi_Jew + Libyan_Jew + Turkish_Aydin @ 1.557172
18 Bulgarian + Sicilian_East + Tunisian_Jew + Turkish @ 1.560693
19 Druze + Libyan_Jew + Romanian + Turkish_Aydin @ 1.571435
20 Ashkenazi_Jew + Palestinian + Spanish_Northeast + Turkish @ 1.572889

As you can see, 3/4 Middle Eastern + 1/4 Northern/Central European clusters with Ashkenazim.

The Jews from Ethiopia are genetically different from other Jews, but they still belong to the tribe of Israel considering they identify with our people. I don't know their exact origins but people say they were converts from Christianity, but even then that's different from people converting to a religion because those people conquered their land.

I don't think how it's possible that they've been sitting on their butts within the same region considering so many people have settled the land throughout history.

And Iraqi and Iranian Jews in Israel serve on the IDF and a lot of them marry other Jews. And they've also lived in the diaspora for longer than Ashkenazim have. The Iraqi and Iranian Jews have the same "nasty ideology" as the rest.

[Pine]

And Iraqi and Iranian Jews in Israel serve on the IDF and a lot of them marry other Jews. And they've also lived in the diaspora for longer than Ashkenazim have. The Iraqi and Iranian Jews have the same "nasty ideology" as the rest.

What's funny is that there is a good chance that Ashkenazim are more Judean than Iranian Jews. He also picked the most Right Wing Jews to rep - I like it.

[Hamilcar]

It's not a very good quality photo and last time I checked, there are Arabs who dress like that too.

I never claimed they didn't but you said jews didn't dress like their polish host.


But we are genetically 45-65% West Asian

Source ? + like Pine said it "west asian" doesn't necessarily imply canaanite ancestry.


and when foreigners are absorbed into the tribe, they're no longer foreigners. Almost all groups of people have people who have assimilated into their group. Where do you think all of the ethnic groups who don't exist anymore went? They assimilated into other groups. Being indigenous isn't just about genetics, but about where your people started, and Jews are also an ethnic group and not just a religion. The land of Israel is where we started as a people. That's where we began, and no amount of newcomers could change that. Archeology shows that the Ancient Israelite kingdoms existed, but does it show that there were Ancient Palestinian kingdoms who spoke Arabic and practiced Islam?


What kind of bs paragraph is that ? With such logic I'm indigenous to the whole med area and again you aren't culturally similar to ancient israelites but only share the same religion (modern Hebrew is different too). Meanwhile historically this region has for most of its history been known as palestine, land of Canaan, Judea, etc certainly not "israel"



And when did we expel the Palestinians??? They're still living in the Gaza strip, Judea and Samaria and Israel proper last time I checked. Jews were expelled from the region, but not Arabs; they're still living there.

Palestine isn't an Arabic word; it's what the Romans called the region when they invaded, which makes it AN IMPERIALIST NAME. Yes it was the name of a region, but it was home to many groups of people and many have settled the land all throughout history, and it existed way before Arabic became the lingua franca of the middle east.

Never heard of this ? : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba

but even before this many villages/cities got emptied of their palestinian populations and today it's common to find jewish colonies in the west bank.

Imperialism you said ? :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_zxiO0R0lI

[Hamilcar]

These are my brother's GEDMatch results

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++
1 Greek + Lebanese + Sicilian_West + Turkish_Aydin @ 1.340193
2 Bulgarian + Libyan_Jew + Sicilian_East + Turkish @ 1.365334
3 Ashkenazi_Jew + Jordanian + Spanish_Northeast + Turkish @ 1.400646
4 Albanian + Lebanese + Sicilian_West + Turkish_Aydin @ 1.421323
5 French + Syrian + Turkish + Turkish_Jew @ 1.426760
6 Cypriot + French + Lebanese + Turkish_Aydin @ 1.456770
7 Belgian + Lebanese + Moroccan_Jew + Turkish_Kayseri @ 1.463297
8 Italian_Bergamo + Sicilian_West + Syrian + Turkish @ 1.471444
9 French + Jordanian + Sicilian_West + Turkish_Kayseri @ 1.493048
10 Italian_Bergamo + Palestinian + Sicilian_West + Turkish @ 1.497350
11 Lebanese + Sicilian_West + Turkish_Aydin + Tuscan @ 1.497997
12 German_South + Jordanian + Turkish + Turkish_Jew @ 1.522573
13 Ashkenazi_Jew + Spanish_Southwest + Syrian + Turkish @ 1.533802
14 Lebanese + Moroccan_Jew + Turkish_Kayseri + Utahn_European @ 1.535919
15 Bulgarian + Lebanese + Turkish_Aydin + Turkish_Jew @ 1.545135
16 English_South + Jordanian + Turkish_Jew + Turkish_Kayseri @ 1.550871
17 German_South + Iraqi_Jew + Libyan_Jew + Turkish_Aydin @ 1.557172
18 Bulgarian + Sicilian_East + Tunisian_Jew + Turkish @ 1.560693
19 Druze + Libyan_Jew + Romanian + Turkish_Aydin @ 1.571435
20 Ashkenazi_Jew + Palestinian + Spanish_Northeast + Turkish @ 1.572889

As you can see, 3/4 Middle Eastern + 1/4 Northern/Central European clusters with Ashkenazim.

The Jews from Ethiopia are genetically different from other Jews, but they still belong to the tribe of Israel considering they identify with our people. I don't know their exact origins but people say they were converts from Christianity, but even then that's different from people converting to a religion because those people conquered their land.

I don't think how it's possible that they've been sitting on their butts within the same region considering so many people have settled the land throughout history.

And Iraqi and Iranian Jews in Israel serve on the IDF and a lot of them marry other Jews. And they've also lived in the diaspora for longer than Ashkenazim have. The Iraqi and Iranian Jews have the same "nasty ideology" as the rest.


Thanks for proving my point and I'm pretty sure samaritans wouldn't get such very mixed results + There is no evidence that's your brother's result (also why your brother's result and not yours ? Suspicious)

And I don't care if they serve in the IDF (as if it wasn't mandatory), they are still rightfully indigenous while the rest aren't.


These people pass better in belgium than any middle eastern country, stop being in denial ffs :

https://i.imgur.com/BYV2HyN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pJxlF0d.jpg

[Meerkat]

I never claimed they didn't but you said jews didn't dress like their polish host.



Source ? + like Pine said it "west asian" doesn't necessarily imply canaanite ancestry.




What kind of bs paragraph is that ? With such logic I'm indigenous to the whole med area and again you aren't culturally similar to ancient israelites but only share the same religion (modern Hebrew is different too). Meanwhile historically this region has for most of its history been known as palestine, land of Canaan, Judea, etc certainly not "israel"




Never heard of this ? : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba

but even before this many villages/cities got emptied of their palestinian populations and today it's common to find jewish colonies in the west bank.

Imperialism you said ? :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_zxiO0R0lI

Ever heard of this? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_(united_monarchy)

Modern Hebrew is different but it still comes from Ancient Hebrew. It's still more similar to Ancient Hebrew than Arabic is to Ancient Hebrew. And where do Jews come from? JUDEA. All you're doing is proving that it was Jewish land. Genetics confirm that we come from the near east and that is where our origins as a people started. All humans are genetically from Africa, but we aren't all indigenous to Africa because that is not where all of our peoples' identities and histories began. Got it? The identity of the Jewish people as Jews began there and we were dispersed.

This isn't ending but yes I know about the Nakba, but that doesnt change the fact that they're STILL THERE (and growing in numbers). You can't say that they were expelled from the region when they're still living there. Judea and Samaria was also emptied of Jews in 1948, and Jews weren't allowed to live there when the Arabs who were within Israel's borders at the time became Israeli citizens. And guess what? There are also Arab "colonies" in "the West Bank" too. Why are Jewish cities "colonies" or "settlements" when Arabs get to live in Arab-only cities?

[Hamilcar]

Ever heard of this? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_(united_monarchy)

1047 BCE–930 BCE so yes like I said wasn't called "israel" during most of its history.

+ its inhabitans were genetically closer to palestinians or lebanese muslims than ashkenazim :


Distance to: Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.03494210 Lebanese_Christian
0.03741919 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.04507980 Lebanese_Druze
0.05019794 Lebanese_Muslim
0.05522839 Palestinian
0.08523952 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.09519079 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.09621818 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.09814853 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.09926573 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.10016833 Ashkenazi_Russia

Distance to: Levant_Sidon_MBA
0.03195107 Lebanese_Christian
0.03386762 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.04151007 Lebanese_Druze
0.04670863 Lebanese_Muslim
0.04917416 Palestinian
0.08082925 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.09112648 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.09206973 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.09410684 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.09519362 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.09608540 Ashkenazi_Russia






Modern Hebrew is different but it still comes from Ancient Hebrew. It's still more similar to Ancient Hebrew than Arabic is to Ancient Hebrew. And where do Jews come from? JUDEA. All you're doing is proving that it was Jewish land. Genetics confirm that we come from the near east and that is where our origins as a people started. All humans are genetically from Africa, but we aren't all indigenous to Africa because that is not where all of our peoples' identities and histories began. Got it? The identity of the Jewish people as Jews began there and we were dispersed.

This isn't ending but yes I know about the Nakba, but that doesnt change the fact that they're STILL THERE (and growing in numbers). You can't say that they were expelled from the region when they're still living there. Judea and Samaria was also emptied of Jews in 1948, and Jews weren't allowed to live there when the Arabs who were within Israel's borders at the time became Israeli citizens. And guess what? There are also Arab "colonies" in "the West Bank" too. Why are Jewish cities "colonies" or "settlements" when Arabs get to live in Arab-only cities?


Language is totally meaningless, afro-americans speak english does that mean they are native to england ? My ancestors who spoke latin aren't mine now ? Genetics actually confirms you aren't similar to ancient israelites and that you actually plot next to south europeans + There is not a single historical evidence of jews being "dispersed".

[Pine]

Thanks for proving my point and I'm pretty sure samaritans wouldn't get such very mixed results + There is no evidence that's your brother's result (also why your brother's result and not yours ? Suspicious)

And I don't care if they serve in the IDF (as if it wasn't mandatory), they are still rightfully indigenous while the rest aren't.


These people pass better in belgium than any middle eastern country, stop being in denial ffs :

https://i.imgur.com/BYV2HyN.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/pJxlF0d.jpg

Hey man, curious: have you ever had these conversation with Jews irl? If so, which of the hot topics did you get in: Belgian phenotypes, European DNA, brainwashed desire to go live in Israel? How did it go?

[Blondie]

Hamilcar is partly right because european jews look european in general not middle eastern, but it doesn't matter because they speak hebrew, they follow their religion, culturally they israelites etc, so they have every right to live in Israel. Jews have already been in Israel when arabs lived in only Arabia.
Another fact, there was nothing in the present day Israel before the jews, only poor illiterated muslim beduins, but now Israel is a high tech welfare state. Muslims like to spread this "im victim" bs propaganda, but in the reality they are the most oppressive peoples who always terrorize non muslims. Genetic doesn't matter, the culture, language, religion, and identity does matter.

[StonyArabia]

Hamilcar is partly right because european jews look european in general not middle eastern, but it doesn't matter because they speak hebrew, they follow their religion, culturally they israelites etc, so they have every right to live in Israel. Jews have already been in Israel when arabs lived in only Arabia.

That’s not true because the home of the Arabs extends into the Syrian desert and the away into parts of Palestine and the Sinai. The Arab expansion happened long before the rise of Islam. Since the Arabian Kedarities and Nabateans were present there. Not mention the Midianite another Arabian tribe. Plus most North Arabians have their origins in Jordan and the southern Levant like Safaitic, Thumidic, as well the Tankhuids.


Another fact, there was nothing in the present day Israel before the jews, only poor illiterated muslim beduins, but now Israel is a high tech welfare state.

Completely false. We the Bedouins are not illiterate, we always had writing and are known for our poetry. Plus it was us who had defeated the Romans, when they had crushed most of the Med world, this was under the Queen Mavia. Also historians and the Ottoman archives show otherwise. Palestinians were not Bedouins or immigrants lol. Many cities in Israel are Palestinian. Plus Palestinians show clear Levantine origins, but gets muddled with Nortn Arabians because they are close to southern Levantines genetically. North Arabians are from there originally the Syrian Desert. Israel is not a welfare state, high tech in some areas but it’s no where advanced as Japan or even the U.S

It also has high poverty rate among so called developed nations, no they are not the Arab citizens, many of them Jews.


Muslims like to spread this "im victim" bs propaganda, but in the reality they are the most oppressive peoples who always terrorize non muslims.

The Iraqi sanction, the Iraqi war of 2003 invaded by Anglo-Americans, the invasion of Libya all disagree with you on that one. Not to mention what happened in the Balkans and the Caucasus.


Genetic doesn't matter, the culture, language, religion, and identity does matter.

That’s nonsense. So if a Chinese guy adopts Greek or Hungarian language, culture, and religion he is Greek or Hungarian rofl.

[Pine]

Plus Palestinians show clear Levantine origins, but gets muddled with Nortn Arabians because they are close to southern Levantines genetically.

.

While Palestinian Muslims have a clear chunk of Levantine ancestry, why doesn't this happen to Palestinian Christians?

[StonyArabia]

While Palestinian Muslims have a clear chunk of Levantine ancestry, why doesn't this happen to Palestinian Christians?

Christianity is a religion. Many can convert to Christianity but there genetics does not change. Many Palestinian Christians not only descent from Levantines but from Arabian Yemenite tribes, the most famous of these were the Ghassanids. The Ghassanids never converted to Islam. Only one branch did, this branch provided wives for the Mamluk rulers of Egypt for legitimacy. Also the Banu Makhzum Qurashi clan converted to Christianity from paganism, clan that was related to the Banu Hashim and Ummyads. Also the Banu Taghlib and several Tayy clans never converted to Islam. These mentioned tribes are also in the bloodline of Lebanese Christians, ect.

This nonsense has to stop. It’s like saying Shia Lebanese are Persians rofl

[Pine]

Christianity is a religion. Many can convert to Christianity but there genetics does not change. Many Palestinian Christians not only descent from Levantines but from Arabian Yemenite tribes, the most famous of these were the Ghassanids. The Ghassanids never converted to Islam. Only one branch did, this branch provided wives for the Mamluk rulers of Egypt for legitimacy. Also the Banu Makhzum Qurashi clan converted to Christianity from paganism, clan that was related to the Banu Hashim and Ummyads. Also the Banu Taghlib and several Tayy clans never converted to Islam. These mentioned tribes are also in the bloodline of Lebanese Christians, ect.

This nonsense has to stop. It’s like saying Shia Lebanese are Persians rofl

The question was why Palestinian Christians don't get muddled with North Arabians.

[StonyArabia]

The question was why Palestinian Christians don't get muddled with North Arabians.

They also do. Like I said North are not that distinct from southern Levantines. Leb Christians at times are even more Arabian shifted than the Muslim Lebs. Why Shia Lebanese don’t show Iranic admixture?

Even if Palestinians have Arabian admixture it does not delegitimise them, because as a whole Jews are more mixed and many are descendants of various converts through out the centuries according to Shalmo Sands book such as the The invention of the Jewish nation.

There needs to be more research on the Khazars and their genetics. The Khazar theory did not come out of thin air. Plus the Khazar empire was very significant and important in the history of Europe and the world. It represented the third Abrahamic world power, and Judaism as its religion. It seems conveniently to have been put to the dust bin of history. The reason because the Khazars have blocked us from entering into Europe, after successfully conquering most of the Med islands like Sicily, Cyprus, Balearic Islands and also Iberia along with parts of Southern France. The Khazars also choose Judaism for political reasons and their king or Khagan Bulan also felt ashamed that his people paganism and Phallus worship kept them savage. It was Judaism that maintained Khazar independence. Plus Khagan Bulan had invited many Jews from Iraq to propagate the faith in his relam, they were even briefly allied with the Christian Europeans against the Arabs. However the Arab Khazar wars, despite being loss for the Arabs, had greatly contributed to their weakness, and the fall to others. After the Khazar fall they don’t seem to be mentioned anywhere. If the Khazars were close to the Greco-Italians genetically speaking it will just confirm theory.However if the Roman exclusion of 70 AD is true, then it seems most Jews went to the Roman Empire oddly. More studies are needed.

If Palestinian Muslims are Arabian invaders, then Ashkenazim are Khazars, but like I said there needs to be more genetic evidence and many group around the Caspian region claim to descent from them. Though it does not matter because Judaism is mostly a religion. At one point even Arabia had several Jewish converts, these Arabian Jews contributed to other Jewish communities in the Mideast.

[Blondie]

That’s not true because the home of the Arabs extends into the Syrian desert and the away into parts of Palestine and the Sinai. The Arab expansion happened long before the rise of Islam.

Doesn't matter, jews were in Israel earlier than arabs.


We the Bedouins are not illiterate, we always had writing and are known for our poetry.

Totally bullshit, arabs were on neolitic level before the oil companies. There was nothing in Arabia only camels, desert, tents etc, it was the poorest region of the Ottoman Empire, arabs in the 19. century were completely illiterated except teachers, imams etc. And arabs are know for their terror attacks, their dictators and such thing not for their poetry.


The Iraqi sanction, the Iraqi war of 2003 invaded by Anglo-Americans, the invasion of Libya all disagree with you on that one. Not to mention what happened in the Balkans and the Caucasus.

I agree with you, these wars were mistake. Third worlders don't deserve the civilization, we should let them alone in neolitic age.


So if a Chinese guy adopts Greek or Hungarian language, culture, and religion he is Greek or Hungarian rofl.

I don't know about Greece, but Hungary has always been civic nationalist so yes if a chinese can speak hungarian, he is proud of the hungarian flag/history etc, then he is hungarian.

[StonyArabia]

Doesn't matter, jews were in Israel earlier than arabs.

Not really. The Cannaninites were before them.


Totally bullshit, arabs were on neolitic level before the oil companies. There was nothing in Arabia only camels, desert, tents etc, it was the poorest region of the Ottoman Empire, arabs in the 19. century were completely illiterated except teachers, imams etc. And arabs are know for their terror attacks, their dictators and such thing not for their poetry.

Wrong Arabs especially Bedouins are well known for their poetry. Absolute monarchy/dictatorship is a system that works for them. Every group or race has their own government system. No they were not on a Neolithic level. Even the Romans at their height could not subdue us. Not to mention that we defeated the Sassanids and the Byzantines easily. Plus we created three important mega empires the Ummyads, the Abbassids and Fatamids. Not to mention we ruled Sicily for 200 years and Spain for 800 years. We made important contributions to human civilization. Nabateans who are an Arabian tribe were highly advanced. Yep we are Neolithic and we spread our language from southern France to the borders of China. Arabs advanced math, engineering, science and the humanities in general. Read few books is my advice.

The Arabs contributed to the toxicology since Hunayn bin Ishaq in the 9th century to Ibn al-Suri in the 13th century. Books on Diet and Drug Therapy. Arabs have paid attention to the importance of combination of diet and drug therapy more than the predecessors.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5723183/

Al-Hasan Ibn al-Haytham (known in the West by the Latinised form of his first name, initially “Alhacen” and later “Alhazen”) was a pioneering scientific thinker who made important contributions to the understanding of vision, optics and light. His methodology of investigation, in particular using experiment to verify theory, shows certain similarities to what later became known as the modern scientific method.

Through his Book of Optics (Kitab al-Manazir) and its Latin translation (De Aspectibus), his ideas influenced European scholars including those of the European Renaissance. Today, many consider him a pivotal figure in the history of optics and the “Father of modern Optics

https://www.ibnalhaytham.com/

More manuscripts were written in Arabic between the years 800 and 1400 than in the Greek, Latin, and European languages. There were 36 libraries in Bagdad before its destruction by the Mongols.[4] In the 12th century, Spain had 70 libraries, while the rest of Europe had none.[5] Arab hospitals had eye wards, in which they used soporific drugs such as opium during painful eye operations.[4] According to Professor Hirschberg, a 20th-century German professor of medicine, the Arabs wrote 30 textbooks of ophthalmology between 870 and 1370 A.D., of which 14 were preserved, 10 were written in Arabic, and 10 were written by ophthalmologists; some of these textbooks are discussed in this review article

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8081083/


I agree with you, these wars were mistake. Third worlders don't deserve the civilization, we should let them alone in neolitic age.

Those wars were not meant to bring democracy or anything. The Iraq war of 2003 was fought for Israel and not even they are hiding it. Many Americans and British as well other forces were fighting for Mr.N. Plus the Iraqi sanctioned were a clever way to make the country weak and the people angry, and yes to keep Iraq from annexing Kuwait, and uniting the Arabian peninsula. This also to extract Iraq’s natural resources. The same in Libya.


https://youtu.be/1aqcsMQdbdk

Plus Western civilization has its roots in Mesopotamia just like the Arabian, and Iranian(Persian) one




I don't know about Greece, but Hungary has always been civic nationalist so yes if a chinese can speak hungarian, he is proud of the hungarian flag/history etc, then he is hungarian.

Well civic nationalism is most seen as not legitimate, unless it’s America or some immigrant nation like Canada, ect.

[Blondie]

blah blah

Everything what you said is totally meaningless, because i have talked about the MODERN AGE, not the medieval age and 9. century? In the modern age, arabs were on very very low civilization level compared to others, they were not independent but servants of ottomans, europeans. An average arab lived in tents, and they were illiterated and mostly nomadic. The oil changed everything in Arabia, before that they lived like black africans.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vQIEaGrT_og/hqdefault.jpg

About cannaninites, jews are the closest to them:

https://archive.org/details/canaanites00tubb/page/n3/mode/2up
https://books.google.hu/books?id=1yM3AuBh4AsC&redir_esc=y
https://books.google.hu/books?id=inRKaf_To5sC&redir_esc=y

"Biblical scholar Mark Smith notes that archaeological data suggests "that the Israelite culture largely overlapped with and derived from Canaanite culture ... In short, Israelite culture was largely Canaanite in nature."

Arabs are not cannaninites.

And if you ask random peoples in the world what kind of things would they think of arabs they would say terror attacks etc not poety. These poets are totally unknown outside of Arabia.

[Hamilcar]

Everything what you said is totally meaningless, because i have talked about the MODERN AGE, not the medieval age and 9. century? In the modern age, arabs were on very very low civilization level compared to others, they were not independent but servants of ottomans, europeans. An average arab lived in tents, and they were illiterated and mostly nomadic. The oil changed everything in Arabia, before that they lived like black africans.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vQIEaGrT_og/hqdefault.jpg

About cannaninites, jews are the closest to them:

https://archive.org/details/canaanites00tubb/page/n3/mode/2up
https://books.google.hu/books?id=1yM3AuBh4AsC&redir_esc=y
https://books.google.hu/books?id=inRKaf_To5sC&redir_esc=y

"Biblical scholar Mark Smith notes that archaeological data suggests "that the Israelite culture largely overlapped with and derived from Canaanite culture ... In short, Israelite culture was largely Canaanite in nature."

Arabs are not cannaninites.

And if you ask random peoples in the world what kind of things would they think of arabs they would say terror attacks etc not poety. These poets are totally unknown outside of Arabia.

Palestinians aren't simply "arabs", they also descend from these ancient jews.

[Leto]

Palestinians aren't simply "arabs", they also descend from these ancient jews.
Many of them are frankly too brown to be unmixed. The people of Christ should have been lighter. Not Northern European or anything like that but not Bedouin or Egyptian either.

[Hamilcar]

Many of them are frankly too brown to be unmixed. The people of Christ should have been lighter. Not Northern European or anything like that but not Bedouin or Egyptian either.

That's your opinion based on how you perceive modern arabs. Reality is that they might have been even darker than today :



We found a high significant correlation between Sidon_BA and the Lebanese (r = 0.74; 95% CI = 0.63–0.82; p value = 8.168 × 10−16) and lower correlations between Sidon_BA and Europeans (r = 0.56), Africans (r = 0.55), and Asians (r = 0.53) (Figure S9). These results support population continuity in the region and suggest that several present-day genetic disorders might stem from risk alleles that were already present in the Bronze Age population. In addition, SNPs associated with phenotypic traits show that Sidon_BA and the Lebanese had comparable skin, hair, and eye colors (in general: light intermediate skin pigmentation, brown eyes, and dark hair) with similar frequencies of the underlying causal variants in SLC24A5 and HERC2, but with Sidon_BA probably having darker skin than Lebanese today from variants in SLC45A2 resulting in darker pigmentation (Table S2).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929717302768


Also christian communities aren't necessarily "light" :

https://i.imgur.com/zG6hB31.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3Hjzopt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/NJ1jvRl.jpg


The people of Christ looked like modern levantines not ashkenazim or south europeans (now I maybe understand why you want to push this agenda of ashkenazim being middle eastern...)

[Leto]

The people of Christ looked like modern levantines not ashkenazim or south europeans (now I maybe understand why you want to push this agenda of ashkenazim being middle eastern...)
Yes, they looked like unmixed Levantines, not Arabians or Egyptians. And of course lighter than Moroccans.
No, that's wrong, I don't consider the Ashkenazim the same people as the people I read about in the New Testament. Maybe partially in terms of DNA but that's all.

My idea is that before Islam (Arab and Turkish conquests) the entire region between Iran and Morocco was understood very differently compared to today's perceptions. It wasn't like the white race abruptly ends in Sicily and at the Bosporus and the brown one begins, haha. Islam changed it all profoundly.

[Hamilcar]

Yes, they looked like unmixed Levantines, not Arabians or Egyptians. And of course lighter than Moroccans.
No, that's wrong, I don't consider the Ashkenazim the same people as the people I read about in the New Testament. Maybe partially in terms of DNA but that's all.

My idea is that before Islam (Arab and Turkish conquests) the entire region between Iran and Morocco was understood very differently compared to today's perceptions. It wasn't like the white race abruptly ends in Sicily and at the Bosporus and the brown one begins, haha. Islam changed it all profoundly.


"unmixed" levantines look actually even darker than your usual muslim levantines, this shows that you don't really know much about them. You just want to whitewash them for obvious reasons. And no they aren't lighter than moroccans, someone like mia khalifa is certainly not lighter than me or any member of my family.


Your idea is based on how you alienate modern levantines, trying to depict them as some kind of melting pot of dark ethnicities lol I will also start saying south europeans got bleached (and that's actually proved lol)

[Leto]

"unmixed" levantines look actually even darker than your usual muslim levantines, this shows that you don't really know much about them. You just want to whitewash them for obvious reasons. And no they aren't lighter than moroccans, someone like mia khalifa is certainly not lighter than me or any member of my family.


Your idea is based on how you alienate modern levantines, trying to depict them as some kind of melting pot of dark ethnicities lol I will also start saying south europeans got bleached (and that's actually proved lol)
I never said they were light like North Europeans. It was Islam that finally cut them off from Europe, prior to that some modern European territories belonged to the same empire as some modern Middle Eastern and North African ones. Anatolia, Palestine, coastal North Africa.

[RogueState]

The simple question is : if we could test ancient authentic Jews, from Moses, King David, Salomon to Herod, and see which modern population is closest to them, I believe current Levantines would be closer than Ashkenazim

[Jana]

Waiting for Slavs to comment.

They don't look Slavic.

[Hamilcar]

I never said they were light like North Europeans. It was Islam that finally cut them off from Europe, prior to that some modern European territories belonged to the same empire as some modern Middle Eastern and North African ones. Anatolia, Palestine, coastal North Africa.

Doesn't mean they were viewed as close or similar to europeans.

Whether north africans or levantines, both were seen as foreigners by romans :


The Macedonians who rule Alexandria in Egypt, who rule Seleucia and Babylon and
other colonies spread all over the world, have degenerated into Syrians, Parthians and
Egyptians . . . whatever grows in its own soil, prospers better; transplanted to alien soil,
it changes and it degenerates to conform to the soil which feeds it.

(Livy 38.17.12)



First, the Syrians (Isaac 2004: 335–50): They were born for slavery according to the
familiar formula (Cicero, de provinciis consularibus 2.5.10; Livy 35.49.8; Livy 36.17.4–5).
The presumed qualities of the Syrians and other Asiatic peoples which earn them the
description of having been born for slavery are: servility, effeminacy, perversity.
Homosexuality, self-castration, perverted cults are all associated with this presumed lack
of masculinity. They were no fighters, it was thought. Connected with this is the accusation
of luxurious living. The Syrians are good at feasting, they tend to go to the baths rather
than exercise, and they over-eat. This means that they represent the opposite of what
Romans think real men ought to be. Roman ideas about Syrians constitute a complex of
stereotypes with what I would call proto-racist characteristics. Their presumed qualities
were also regarded as infectious. When effeminate Syrians and Romans are brought
together the Romans become soft and the Syrians remain as they are. The reverse would
never apply: Syrians do not become sturdy fighters under the influence of Roman
conquerors.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00438240500509819


People like saint augustine themselves were victim of racism in Italy :


He remained however an African: the letter of Maximus, already quoted, is an example. Certainly he feels Roman, he is conscious of the universal beyond the limits of the empire, but he is pricked with the sharpness when Julian of Eclane treats him of Punic; he answers: "do not despise, proud of your terrestrial race, this Punic who puts you in guard! It is not because you were born in Apulia that you must be able to overcome the Punic by your race, them that you are unable to beat by the spirit!"

Jean-Marie Lassère, Africa quasi roma, p. 612

[TheForeigner]

The simple question is : if we could test ancient authentic Jews, from Moses, King David, Salomon to Herod, and see which modern population is closest to them, I believe current Levantines would be closer than Ashkenazim

So what? Are they descended from real Israelites? Do they practice Judaism or speak Hebrew? They don't! Problem is solved, because Ashkenazim are descendants of actual Israelites(partly) and speak Hebrew in Israel and are of Judaic faith.

[Hamilcar]

So what? Are they descended from real Israelites? Do they practice Judaism or speak Hebrew? They don't! Problem is solved, because Ashkenazim are descendants of actual Israelites(partly) and speak Hebrew in Israel and are of Judaic faith.

So what ? Do afro-americans practice indigenous sub-saharan cults or speak languages from there ? They don't ! Are you pagan like your romanian ancestors ? Do you speak dacian ? You don't ! Therefore you can't view them as your ancestors nor can you claim to be indigenous.

[Meerkat]

The simple question is : if we could test ancient authentic Jews, from Moses, King David, Salomon to Herod, and see which modern population is closest to them, I believe current Levantines would be closer than Ashkenazim

But many Ashkenazim could actually trace their LINEAGE back to King David. It doesn't matter which population is genetically closest to King David, but which population actually has a line of tradition going back to King David.

[TheForeigner]

So what ? Do afro-americans practice indigenous sub-saharan cults or speak languages from there ? They don't ! Are you pagan like your romanian ancestors ? Do you speak dacian ? You don't ! Therefore you can't view them as your ancestors nor can you claim to be indigenous.

That is bs. I actually think both Jews and Palestinians are indigenous to Israel and Palestinian territories. I meant that you can't say Levantines or Arabs in general have a claim over the Holy Land that is valid.

[Leto]

Doesn't mean they were viewed as close or similar to europeans.

Whether north africans or levantines, both were seen as foreigners by romans :



(Livy 38.17.12)




https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00438240500509819


People like saint augustine themselves were victim of racism in Italy :



Jean-Marie Lassère, Africa quasi roma, p. 612
That wasn't racism, this leftist terminology did not exist back then. Saying someone is different in some way or another is not "racism", it's common sense and empirical observations. For that matter, the North Europeans were considered different by the Romans as well.

[RogueState]

So what? Are they descended from real Israelites? Do they practice Judaism or speak Hebrew? They don't! Problem is solved, because Ashkenazim are descendants of actual Israelites(partly) and speak Hebrew in Israel and are of Judaic faith.

Israel colonization of Palestine, is not based upon religious practices, because most Zionist founders were secular, even atheists

It's purely racially-based : Jewishness is having a Jewish mother, which means that you can even not speak Hebrew, being atheist and live as a hippie in New York, and yet given by Israeli government, the citizenship in Israel and access to housing in the "West Bank" (Yehuda-Shomron) if you can prove your Jewishness, while the INDIGENOUS Palestinians, can just be expelled and go live in the camps of suburbs of Beirut...

So the genetic question is essential in the debate for Zionists to legitimize their colonialism...


https://youtu.be/EcTv9w4-lUk?t=25

[Hamilcar]

But many Ashkenazim could actually trace their LINEAGE back to King David. It doesn't matter which population is genetically closest to King David, but which population actually has a line of tradition going back to King David.

if King David had the opportunity to come back and see ashkenazim, he would probably think they are philistine imposters who larp as jews.

[TheForeigner]

Israel colonization of Palestine, is not based upon religious practices, because most Zionist founders were secular, even atheists

It's purely racially-based : Jewishness is having a Jewish mother, which means that you can even not speak Hebrew, being atheist and live as a hippie in New York, and yet given by Israeli government, the citizenship in Israel and access to housing in the "West Bank" (Yehuda-Shomron) if you can prove your Jewishness, while the INDIGENOUS Palestinians, can just be expelled and go live in the camps of suburbs of Beirut...

So the genetic question is essential in the debate for Zionists to legitimize their colonialism...

But genetics show that both Palestinians and Jews are indigenous there, so there should be a two state solution that the so called international community supports.

[Hamilcar]

That is bs. I actually think both Jews and Palestinians are indigenous to Israel and Palestinian territories. I meant that you can't say Levantines or Arabs in general have a claim over the Holy Land that is valid.

whut ? They literally always lived there that's clearly more valid than muh I speak hebrew

[RogueState]

if King David had the opportunity to come back and see ashkenazim, he would probably think they are philistine imposters who larp as jews.

If King David (aka Prophet Dawud a.s.) was back, he would stand for Palestinians as his true sons and subjects !

Wa Allahu A'lam...

[Hamilcar]

That wasn't racism, this leftist terminology did not exist back then. Saying someone is different in some way or another is not "racism", it's common sense and empirical observations. For that matter, the North Europeans were considered different by the Romans as well.

The quotes can't be more explicit than that and the fact they also viewed northern barbarians as foreigners doesn't mean much either. To make it simple racism is a feeling of inherent superiority based on "race" how the quote of st augustine isn't a perfect illustration of that ?

[TheForeigner]

whut ? They literally always lived there that's clearly more valid than muh I speak hebrew

But Jews were forcibly driven out of Judea by Romans. They are partially descended from Israelites too and have a religion and culture that comes from that land. Both Palestinians and Israelis have a right to be there. I support the two states solution.

[Meerkat]

So what ? Do afro-americans practice indigenous sub-saharan cults or speak languages from there ? They don't ! Are you pagan like your romanian ancestors ? Do you speak dacian ? You don't ! Therefore you can't view them as your ancestors nor can you claim to be indigenous.

But African Americans are called AFRICAN AMERICANS and not West Africans for a reason. Of course they are genetically African (for the most part), but we don't call them West Africans because their culture and language isn't West African.

Someone could say that they come from Dacians, but calling yourself "Dacian" when you have no connection to Dacians is like Palestinians calling themselves Ancient Israelites. Ashkenazim have a line of tradition and lineage going back to the Ancient Israelites. Also it's funny how Palestinians are never "Ancient Israelites" unless it's in the context of people trying to discredit the Jewish connection to the land.

You could acknowledge whomever you want as your ancestors, but most of us (including Ashkenazim) don't just descend from one ancient tribe of course, and so by that logic, I could.claim to be Ancient Hebrew and Slavic and Southern European, and Palestinians could also claim lots of things, but the culture you belong to is what matters. Many people have ancestry from all over the world and while Americans with German ancestry could say that they have Germany ancestry, they still don't belong to the German people.

[Blondie]

if King David had the opportunity to come back and see ashkenazim, he would probably think they are philistine imposters who larp as jews.

You need a jewish eye surgery to see the truth :thumb001:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbUefqzixs

[Leto]

This thread is becoming nonsensical, 'cause it's going nowhere. If we can't simply agree the Ashkenazim are mixed and both Middle Eastern and European, then it's a pointless debate. The state of Israel exists whether we like it or not, most of those Jews (75% I believe) were born there and aren't going anywhere.

This thread was opened by a sock puppet (perhaps Nassbean himself) and should be closed.

[Meerkat]

If King David (aka Prophet Dawud a.s.) was back, he would stand for Palestinians as his true sons and subjects !

Wa Allahu A'lam...

He was the king of Israel, and so I'm sure he'd wonder why there are people in the region calling themselves Palestinians and speaking Arabic. He also wouldn't know what Islam is. I do think that modern Jews would seem foreign to King David in many ways, just as most modern populations, but he'd definitely understand more modern Hebrew than Arabic.

[Hamilcar]

But Jews were forcibly driven out of Judea by Romans. They are partially descended from Israelites too and have a religion and culture that comes from that land. Both Palestinians and Israelis have a right to be there. I support the two states solution.

Actually no there is not a single evidence of such expulsion. They only expelled the jews from Jerusalem but that's it.

This is the truth about them :


In contrast, the other Jewish populations were formed more recently from Jews who migrated or were expelled from Palestine and from individuals who were converted to Judaism during Hellenic-Hasmonean times, when proselytism was a common Jewish practice. During Greco-Roman times, recorded mass conversions led to 6 million people practicing Judaism in Roman times or up to 10% of the population of the Roman Empire.


not a coincidence if they have the highest rate of skin cancer in the world lmao :


The skin cancer rate in Israel is among the highest in the world, the Israel Cancer Association reported yesterday. At the end of 2000 there were 3,631 skin cancer patients in Israel and around 200 die every year from the disease.

https://www.haaretz.com/1.4718949

[RogueState]

This thread is becoming nonsensical, 'cause it's going nowhere. If we can't simply agree the Ashkenazim are mixed and both Middle Eastern and European, then it's a pointless debate. The state of Israel exists whether we like it or not, most of those Jews (75% I believe) were born there and aren't going anywhere.

This thread was opened by a sock puppet (perhaps Nassbean himself) and should be closed.

If Jews could wait 2000 years, through their "convert" half breed children, to finally go back to "Israel"; don't worry that Palestinians and other Arabs, and the whole Muslim Ummah, will need less time to reclaim their territory back !

So better find a peaceful and just solution now, because time is running against the arrogant Zionist regime ! It's better for their long term survival...

[Meerkat]

if King David had the opportunity to come back and see ashkenazim, he would probably think they are philistine imposters who larp as jews.

King David himself was a redhead and a lot of Ashkenazim probably look more West Asian than King David himself did. He would also be confused as to what Islam is so it doesn't matter. He didn't know about a lot of things because he LIVED 3,000 YEARS AGO. The ancestors of any group from 3,000 years ago would think that their current descendants are weird. Your point?

[Leto]

Nassbean you are an immigrant living in Europe who denies that whites are indigenous there, why are you defending someone else's country so adamantly? You claimed you aren't even Muslim and you are a Berber, not a Palestinian. How about all the fucking Moors leaving Brussels to the Belgians (Walloons/Flemish)?

[Leto]

If Jews could wait 2000 years, through their "convert" half breed children, to finally go back to "Israel"; don't worry that Palestinians and other Arabs, and the whole Muslim Ummah, will need less time to reclaim their territory back !

So better find a peaceful and just solution now, because time is running against the arrogant Zionist regime ! It's better for their long term survival...
What the fuck does the Ummah have to do with that? A Tatar living in Russia or an Albanian like you living God knows where have nothing to do with Palestine. Palestine isn't Mecca or the birth place of Islam.

[Hamilcar]

But African Americans are called AFRICAN AMERICANS and not West Africans for a reason. Of course they are genetically African (for the most part), but we don't call them West Africans because their culture and language isn't West African.

Someone could say that they come from Dacians, but calling yourself "Dacian" when you have no connection to Dacians is like Palestinians calling themselves Ancient Israelites. Ashkenazim have a line of tradition and lineage going back to the Ancient Israelites. Also it's funny how Palestinians are never "Ancient Israelites" unless it's in the context of people trying to discredit the Jewish connection to the land.

You could acknowledge whomever you want as your ancestors, but most of us (including Ashkenazim) don't just descend from one ancient tribe of course, and so by that logic, I could.claim to be Ancient Hebrew and Slavic and Southern European, and Palestinians could also claim lots of things, but the culture you belong to is what matters. Many people have ancestry from all over the world and while Americans with German ancestry could say that they have Germany ancestry, they still don't belong to the German people.


That's simply a geographical term, any sane person will clearly not consider afro-americans to be similar to white AMERICANS or native AMERICANS. They are closer in look and genetically to west africans than any other american community but if we have to follow your logic they have no right to claim their west african ancestors or to go back live there since they don't share the same culture. Ridiculous.

No the culture you belong doesn't matter since a same population/ethnicity can embrace different cultures over time or even during the same time period. If that was so easy, many assimilated people wouldn't have been discriminated the way they did (like afro-americans).


Never in my life will I consider such people more indigenous than palestinians :

https://i.imgur.com/BYV2HyN.jpg


the same way I wouldn't consider ethiopian jews to be more indigenous.

[TheForeigner]

What the fuck does the Ummah have to do with that? A Tatar living in Russia or an Albanian like you living God knows where have nothing to do with Palestine. Palestine isn't Mecca or the birth place of Islam.

Radical Muslims think the whole world belongs to them. Many years ago a Muslim Arab(forget which country) told me that Iberian and Balkan peninsulas will be first lands which Muslims will "get back". They think what they stole once, will be theirs again. They also think Muhammed was there before he died and rose to heaven or something, so they think Jerusalem should be theirs.

[Hamilcar]

King David himself was a redhead and a lot of Ashkenazim probably look more West Asian than King David himself did. He would also be confused as to what Islam is so it doesn't matter. He didn't know about a lot of things because he LIVED 3,000 YEARS AGO. The ancestors of any group from 3,000 years ago would think that their current descendants are weird. Your point?

Doesn't mean he looked european or that his people did. + he'll become very suspicious about all these philistine looking people claiming to be jews and harassing/killing palestinians who look like his people.

[Hamilcar]

Nassbean you are an immigrant living in Europe who denies that whites are indigenous there, why are you defending someone else's country so adamantly? You claimed you aren't even Muslim and you are a Berber, not a Palestinian. How about all the fucking Moors leaving Brussels to the Belgians (Walloons/Flemish)?

You're a fucking east european that always spend hours on threads about MENA + has the audacity to bring his eurocentrist theories about how we looked.


If an israeli tells me "yes ok I look european and I'm mostly european genetically but I claim this land because I have the power to do it/conquer it" then I'll respect him more than people who twist all the datas we have and lie about their looks to fit their nasty agenda.

[Blondie]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/image.php?u=28011&dateline=1627955730

[Leto]

You're a fucking east european that always spend hours on threads about MENA + has the audacity to bring his eurocentrist theories about how we looked.


If an israeli tells me "yes ok I look european and I'm mostly european genetically but I claim this land because I have the power to do it/conquer it" then I'll respect him more than people who twist all the datas we have and lie about their looks to fit their nasty agenda.
Yes, I discuss that sometimes, there is not a lot of Middle Easterners on this forum, most people are European here, fully or partially. I collect Gedmatch results and make averages for all sorts of groups, including West Asia. Regarding Palestine, I am a committed Christian and also a Christian nationalist, so I do have pretty strong views on certain issues and most of y'all would probably not like them. When I read the Bible or listen to it in church, I often think of the people it talks about.

[Meerkat]

That's simply a geographical term, any sane person will clearly not consider afro-americans to be similar to white AMERICANS or native AMERICANS. They are closer in look and genetically to west africans than any other american community but if we have to follow your logic they have no right to claim their west african ancestors or to go back live there since they don't share the same culture. Ridiculous.

No the culture you belong doesn't matter since a same population/ethnicity can embrace different cultures over time or even during the same time period. If that was so easy, many assimilated people wouldn't have been discriminated the way they did (like afro-americans).


Never in my life will I consider such people more indigenous than palestinians :

https://i.imgur.com/BYV2HyN.jpg


the same way I wouldn't consider ethiopian jews to be more indigenous.

African Americans weren't assimilated. They're still African Americans. They do have the right to claim their West African ancestry, but that doesn't mean that they're West Africans the same way West Africans living in West Africa are West Africans.

The culture you do belong to is what matters in the end because like I said, most humans are descended from multiple ancient tribes; it's the aspects of their people's history that they retain that matters. Even if Palestinians were genetically 100% Ancient Israelite, it wouldn't matter because they never really claimed the Ancient Israelites and their culture and language and practices afaik, but Ashkenazim always did. For 3,000+ years. Even before we became Ashkenazim and were just Jews.

Like I said, I only ever see people claiming that Palestinians are Ancient Israelites in order to discredit Jewish connection to the land. It doesn't seem like anyone claimed that Palestinians were Ancients Israelites before modern Israel, but I could be wrong.

It doesn't matter whom you consider more indigenous, but the fact is that if traditions and claims to ancestry had long been forgotten, then you don't belong to those people anymore. By your logic, your average white American with some native American ancestry could claim many European and native American tribes as their people.

[Jana]

The Jewish issue is quite confusing, according to ethniceleb she is AJ and Sephardic Jew. Typical person that you can find in the Levant:

https://ethnicelebs.com/melanie-laurent

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMTI5Mjc2MTE3OV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNTc2MzI2Mg@@._ V1_FMjpg_UX1000_.jpg

She looks like you :rolleyes:

She actually looks Jewish. I do understand to north African or Arab this is northern European look. But with black hair and brown eyes she will look similar to other brunet Jewish people from her community.

[Meerkat]

Doesn't mean he looked european or that his people did. + he'll become very suspicious about all these philistine looking people claiming to be jews and harassing/killing palestinians who look like his people.

A lot of Philistines assimilated into the Ancient Israelite culture overtime and so I'm sure that many of the Ancient Israelites looked just like Philistines. Whether or not Palestinians "look like his people" is irrelevant, for their culture would be completely foreign to him. He wouldn't know what Islam is.

[Leto]

African Americans weren't assimilated. They're still African Americans. They do have the right to claim their West African ancestry, but that doesn't mean that they're West Africans the same way West Africans living in West Africa are West Africans.

The culture you do belong to is what matters in the end because like I said, most humans are descended from multiple ancient tribes; it's the aspects of their people's history that they retain that matters. Even if Palestinians were genetically 100% Ancient Israelite, it wouldn't matter because they never really claimed the Ancient Israelites and their culture and language and practices afaik, but Ashkenazim always did. For 3,000+ years. Even before we became Ashkenazim and were just Jews.

Like I said, I only ever see people claiming that Palestinians are Ancient Israelites in order to discredit Jewish connection to the land. It doesn't seem like anyone claimed that Palestinians were Ancients Israelites before modern Israel, but I could be wrong.

It doesn't matter whom you consider more indigenous, but the fact is that if traditions and claims to ancestry had long been forgotten, then you don't belong to those people anymore. By your logic, your average white American with some native American ancestry could claim many European and native American tribes as their people.
Why is conversion to Judaism prohibited for Palestinians/Arabs in Israel? They have a lot of local blood and could become Jewish (again).

[Jana]

African Americans weren't assimilated. They're still African Americans. They do have the right to claim their West African ancestry, but that doesn't mean that they're West Africans the same way West Africans living in West Africa are West Africans.

The culture you do belong to is what matters in the end because like I said, most humans are descended from multiple ancient tribes; it's the aspects of their people's history that they retain that matters. Even if Palestinians were genetically 100% Ancient Israelite, it wouldn't matter because they never really claimed the Ancient Israelites and their culture and language and practices afaik, but Ashkenazim always did. For 3,000+ years. Even before we became Ashkenazim and were just Jews.

Like I said, I only ever see people claiming that Palestinians are Ancient Israelites in order to discredit Jewish connection to the land. It doesn't seem like anyone claimed that Palestinians were Ancients Israelites before modern Israel, but I could be wrong.

It doesn't matter whom you consider more indigenous, but the fact is that if traditions and claims to ancestry had long been forgotten, then you don't belong to those people anymore. By your logic, your average white American with some native American ancestry could claim many European and native American tribes as their people.

Palestinians are mixed as well, they aren't unchanged ancient Judeans who converted to Islam. They have other ancestries like Egyptian, Bedouin, even in some cases Turkish or Bosnian muslim as I believe you already mentioned.

[Meerkat]

Why is conversion to Judaism prohibited for Palestinians/Arabs in Israel? They have a lot of local blood and could become Jewish (again).

I heard that it's very difficult to convert to Judaism in Israel altogether. They recommend that people who want to convert to Judaism do so in the diaspora and then move/return to Israel.

[Meerkat]

Why is conversion to Judaism prohibited for Palestinians/Arabs in Israel? They have a lot of local blood and could become Jewish (again).

I heard that it's very difficult to convert to Judaism in Israel altogether. They recommend that people who want to convert to Judaism do so in the diaspora and then move/return to Israel.

[TheForeigner]

A lot of Philistines assimilated into the Ancient Israelite culture overtime and so I'm sure that many of the Ancient Israelites looked just like Philistines. Whether or not Palestinians "look like his people" is irrelevant, for their culture would be completely foreign to him. He wouldn't know what Islam is.

Do you support a greater or whole Israel solution? I have thought in the past, what if Israel annexed the Palestinian territories and told Palestinians to choose between becoming Israeli citizens like the Israeli Arab citizens who are also Palestinians really or emigrate to Arab countries and become citizens there and integrate easily as Arabs. What do you think of this? I know some Israelis and other Jews want this.

[Hamilcar]

Yes, I discuss that sometimes, there is not a lot of Middle Easterners on this forum, most people are European here, fully or partially. I collect Gedmatch results and make averages for all sorts of groups, including West Asia. Regarding Palestine, I am a committed Christian and also a Christian nationalist, so I do have pretty strong views on certain issues and most of y'all would probably not like them. When I read the Bible or listen to it in church, I often think of the people it talks about.

And yet you defend the people who oppressed the christian minority :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqiUGf1qMZA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoRr7kfNdYg&t=23s
https://www.opendoorsusa.org/take-action/pray/christians-feel-growing-oppression-in-israel/


Most christian palestinians do not support Israel/zionism.

[Leto]

And yet you defend the people who oppressed the christian minority :

[video=youtube;qqiUGf1qMZA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqiUGf1qMZA
[video=youtube;FoRr7kfNdYg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoRr7kfNdYg&t=23s
https://www.opendoorsusa.org/take-action/pray/christians-feel-growing-oppression-in-israel/


Most christian palestinians do not support Israel/zionism.
That is false again, I'm not defending anyone. Saying Jews have Middle Eastern ancestry does not mean defending them. That's just a fact. But if you want my personal opinion, those Christian Levantines are the true natives of the land because I simply consider the other religions false or superceded. According to Orthodox (or just "classic") Christianity, not the American evangelical nonsense, the Church of Christ is the new Israel because the New Covenant was made with all of humanity, not just one group of people. However, this sort of discussions has nothing to do with genetics.

[rothaer]

Do you support a greater or whole Israel solution? I have thought in the past, what if Israel annexed the Palestinian territories and told Palestinians to choose between becoming Israeli citizens like the Israeli Arab citizens who are also Palestinians really or emigrate to Arab countries and become citizens there and integrate easily as Arabs. What do you think of this? I know some Israelis and other Jews want this.

You ask how to best to expel or subjugate people from their ancestral homelands?

I suggest to consider what exactly you actually are talking about. Obviously there has been so much propaganda that this is not done anymore.

What would be the best way to deal with Romanians? Let them be subjugated citizens of a Szekely state or expel them to Moldavia where they could easily integrate?

[Hamilcar]

She actually looks Jewish. I do understand to north African or Arab this is northern European look. But with black hair and brown eyes she will look similar to other brunet Jewish people from her community.

hahaha holy sh!t the level of dishonesty here :picard1: and Defcon isn't even NA/arab.

she absolutely doesn't look "jewish" :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L-bckFNu-Y


She looks even more european than 3/4 of euro users on this site. This again show how biased you are.

[TheForeigner]

You ask how to best to expel or subjugate people from their ancestral homelands?

I suggest to consider what exactly you actually are talking about. Obviously there has been so much propaganda that this is not done anymore.

No, I was asking if she thinks it's a good idea. The idea is for them to become citizens of Israel like Israeli Arabs(of Palestinian origin) did or go of their own free will to Arab countries where they will fit in very well. I suspect Christians would generally stay for instance. I know overwhelming majority are Muslims but so are Israeli Arabs who are Palestinians who stayed in Israel and became citizens of it.

[Hamilcar]

That is false again, I'm not defending anyone. Saying Jews have Middle Eastern ancestry does not mean defending them. That's just a fact. But if you want my personal opinion, those Christian Levantines are the true natives of the land because I simply consider the other religions false or superceded. According to Orthodox (or just "classic") Christianity, not the American evangelical nonsense, the Church of Christ is the new Israel because the New Covenant was made with all of humanity, not just one group of people. However, this sort of discussions has nothing to do with genetics.

And who denied these jews had middle eastern ancestry ? Thanks.

[Leto]

And who denied these jews had middle eastern ancestry ? Thanks.
You call them European and say they look pan-European or something like that. I disagree with that.

[Hamilcar]

African Americans weren't assimilated. They're still African Americans. They do have the right to claim their West African ancestry, but that doesn't mean that they're West Africans the same way West Africans living in West Africa are West Africans.

The culture you do belong to is what matters in the end because like I said, most humans are descended from multiple ancient tribes; it's the aspects of their people's history that they retain that matters. Even if Palestinians were genetically 100% Ancient Israelite, it wouldn't matter because they never really claimed the Ancient Israelites and their culture and language and practices afaik, but Ashkenazim always did. For 3,000+ years. Even before we became Ashkenazim and were just Jews.

Like I said, I only ever see people claiming that Palestinians are Ancient Israelites in order to discredit Jewish connection to the land. It doesn't seem like anyone claimed that Palestinians were Ancients Israelites before modern Israel, but I could be wrong.

It doesn't matter whom you consider more indigenous, but the fact is that if traditions and claims to ancestry had long been forgotten, then you don't belong to those people anymore. By your logic, your average white American with some native American ancestry could claim many European and native American tribes as their people.


african americans literally only speak english, dress the same as other white americans, same gastronomy, etc but yes "weren't assimilated" lmao. And no most humans do not descend from multiple "ancient tribes" do not project your case on us, I'm genetically similar to my ancestors who lived 2K years ago. And my ancestors had different cultures : berber, punic, roman, arab, etc it doesn't mean I should view them as foreigners or erase them from my lineage but what didn't change throughout all these millenias ? That's right our genomes and phenotypes.

Meanwhile your case is different you only kept religion (not culture) but all the rest changed therefore no you aren't similar to ancient hebrews nor are you indigenous to palestine.

[Hamilcar]

You call them European and say they look pan-European or something like that. I disagree with that.

Yes since most of them look european and are genetically mostly european.

[Hamilcar]

Palestinians are mixed as well, they aren't unchanged ancient Judeans who converted to Islam. They have other ancestries like Egyptian, Bedouin, even in some cases Turkish or Bosnian muslim as I believe you already mentioned.

It's not comparable to how jews changed and how heterogeneous modern jews are.

[Leto]

It's not comparable to how jews changed and how heterogeneous modern jews are.
Most Jews are in Israel and the U.S. In Israel Sephardim are mixing with Ashkenazim (I'd love to see some recent statistics on the intermarriage rates) and in America they are mixing with whites and sometimes even non-whites.

[TheForeigner]

Yes since most of them look european and are genetically mostly european.

Jews have never been considered in Europe or anywhere else just another European group and not just because of religion. You speak nonsense. Not to mention that a large part of their ancestry is Israelite. Who are you and these other muzzie radicals to know better than scientists who studied their dna?!

[Hamilcar]

Most Jews are in Israel and the U.S. In Israel Sephardim are mixing with Ashkenazim (I'd love to see some recent statistics on the intermarriage rates) and in America they are mixing with whites and sometimes even non-whites.

So ? Sephardim themselves are heavily mixed

[Jana]

hahaha holy sh!t the level of dishonesty here :picard1: and Defcon isn't even NA/arab.

she absolutely doesn't look "jewish" :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L-bckFNu-Y


She looks even more european than 3/4 of euro users on this site. This again show how biased you are.

Her facial features are gracile Jewish/southern. You are Berber who doesn't really know what typical European is.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3f/e1/ca/3fe1ca909d9a96a0a45b86020164084d--french-beauty-french-actress.jpg

[Hamilcar]

Jews have never been considered in Europe or anywhere else just another European group and not just because of religion. You speak nonsense.

yes for political reasons, the same way many white supremacists deny them and try all their best to make them a fully middle eastern population.

[TheForeigner]

yes for political reasons, the same way many white supremacists deny them and try all their best to make them a fully middle eastern population.

They are a Middle Eastern population. A large part live there and they originate there. Doesn't matter how they look or that a large part of their ancestry is European.

[Hamilcar]

Her facial features are gracile Jewish/southern. You are Berber who doesn't really know what typical European is.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3f/e1/ca/3fe1ca909d9a96a0a45b86020164084d--french-beauty-french-actress.jpg


She looks typically french here...let alone south european phenotypes. You clearly don't know much about europeans focus on croatia next time.



"gracile jewish/southern" even jewish members would say you're going too far

https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

[Leto]

So ? Sephardim themselves are heavily mixed
The point is that there is already such a group as the Israeli Jews. At least the native-born population. They speak one language and have a common national identity. Plenty of them are a mix of European and non-European Jews. We have a member waam here, he is half Mountain Jewish from Dagestan, quarter Yemeni and quarter Sephardic.

[Jana]

Land belong to those who conquer it and can keep it. Ancestors of southern Slavs or Anatolian Turks asked none for permission but conquered their new homelands with fire and sword.
That is natural human way, all else is talk for losers.

Jews have ethnical and historical connection to Israel, but even if they didn't have, they'd have right to the Land they are obviously smart enough to keep and nurture to make it prosper.
Obviously Arabs would remove and exterminate them if they could, but they can't, and that's why they are frustrated and cry about illegitimate state of Israel (loool)

As if spread of Arab languages and Islam went by peace.

[Leto]

Her facial features are gracile Jewish/southern. You are Berber who doesn't really know what typical European is.

Well, that woman in the photo is just white, let's be real.

[Meerkat]

african americans literally only speak english, dress the same as other white americans, same gastronomy, etc but yes "weren't assimilated" lmao. And no most humans do not descend from multiple "ancient tribes" do not project your case on us, I'm genetically similar to my ancestors who lived 2K years ago. And my ancestors had different cultures : berber, punic, roman, arab, etc it doesn't mean I should view them as foreigners or erase them from my lineage but what didn't change throughout all these millenias ? That's right our genomes and phenotypes.

Meanwhile your case is different you only kept religion (not culture) but all the rest changed therefore no you aren't similar to ancient hebrews nor are you indigenous to palestine.

African Americans have developed their own culture and have their own unique history that is distinct from that of white Americans. You say they dress like white Americans, but so do most native Americans. It's like not really common to see people in traditional native American attire walking down the streets in America, even if they're native. Idk why you keep bringing up clothing when like Palestinians don't dress like Ancient Israelites either, and Jews still wear religious garments that are what the Ancient Israelites wore. And so in terms of clothing, Ashkenazim are more indigenous.

Yes you could say that you come from all of those people, but that doesn't mean you BELONG to those groups of people, especially if some of those people don't exist anymore. And why do you claim that Palestinians are Ancient Israelites and not Edomites or Moabites or Midianites? There were a lot of groups of people who lived in that region, not just Ancient Israelites. The fact that you're claiming that they're ancient Israelites and none of these other groups is proof that you're just trying to discredit the history and identity of the Jewish people.

And religion isnt "just religion" when it's a non-imperialist religion, unlike Christianity and Islam. And Jews were actually seen as "different looking" back when they were in Europe. No one's culture is the same as it was 3,000 years ago, but we always claimed to be descendants of Ancient Israelites, and way before modern Zionism was a thing. A line of tradition doesn't mean that those traditions have to be exactly the same as they were 3,000 years ago.

[Jana]

She looks typically french here...let alone south european phenotypes. You clearly don't know much about europeans focus on croatia next time.
"gracile jewish/southern" even jewish members would say you're going too far

https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

Because you're a brown guy who doesn't recognize she has typical woggish/east med like eyes shape, lips and nose.

Don't lecture me about Europeans when you are immigrant and I am 100% native one.
And I saw much more Jews than you ever did.

[Meerkat]

She looks typically french here...let alone south european phenotypes. You clearly don't know much about europeans focus on croatia next time.



"gracile jewish/southern" even jewish members would say you're going too far

https://media.giphy.com/media/O5NyCibf93upy/giphy.gif

Yeah she doesn't look typical of any Jewish group to me tbh. She doesn't look super out of the ordinary for an Ashkenazi but she's still not common looking for us.

[Hamilcar]

They are a Middle Eastern population. A large part live there and they originate there. Doesn't matter how they look or that a large part of their ancestry is European.

They aren't except mizrahim.

Would you consider ethiopian or indian jews to be middle eastern too ?

[TheForeigner]

They aren't except mizrahim.

Would you consider ethiopian or indian jews to be middle eastern too ?

We don't even have a term like Middle Eastern in Romanian, but I do consider them also Oriental.

[Hamilcar]

The point is that there is already such a group as the Israeli Jews. At least the native-born population. They speak one language and have a common national identity. Plenty of them are a mix of European and non-European Jews. We have a member waam here, he is half Mountain Jewish from Dagestan, quarter Yemeni and quarter Sephardic.

So ? From an objective point of view it doesn't mean they are genetically and culturally similar to ancient jews nor does it mean palestinians are treated like decent humans there.

[Jana]

Well, that woman in the photo is just white, let's be real.

Many Jews look white, but you can still see they are Jewish, if you are familiar enough with their facial features. Mark Zuckerberg for example also looks like a light Jew. New York is full of Ashkenazis who look like that.

[Sasaolo68]

Her facial features are gracile Jewish/southern. You are Berber who doesn't really know what typical European is.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3f/e1/ca/3fe1ca909d9a96a0a45b86020164084d--french-beauty-french-actress.jpgGracilized types are found in France and UK Islands...

That is not necessarily jewish or southern trait, there are plenty CM Southern Europeans as well, plus many jews aren't gracile at all and most of them resemble Southern Europeans, that woman could pass as a blonde Iberian or blonde Southern French easily.

[Hamilcar]

Land belong to those who conquer it and can keep it. Ancestors of southern Slavs or Anatolian Turks asked none for permission but conquered their new homelands with fire and sword.
That is natural human way, all else is talk for losers.

Jews have ethnical and historical connection to Israel, but even if they didn't have, they'd have right to the Land they are obviously smart enough to keep and nurture to make it prosper.
Obviously Arabs would remove and exterminate them if they could, but they can't, and that's why they are frustrated and cry about illegitimate state of Israel (loool)

As if spread of Arab languages and Islam went by peace.

The thing is that that's not the usual argument they use to defend israel. If an israeli tells me what you wrote I would agree with him but no they prefer to lie and twist the datas and propagate their dangerous ideology.

[Meerkat]

So ? From an objective point of view it doesn't mean they are genetically and culturally similar to ancient jews nor does it mean palestinians are treated like decent humans there.

Ethiopian Jews and Indian Jews aren't genetically related to other Jews, but a lot of Ethiopian Jews have culturally assimilated into the Israeli culture and are therefore Middle Eastern. Indian Jews were actually practicing a form of Judaism similar to that of other Jews, and so they do have a line of tradition going back to the Ancient Israelites even if it's isn't genetic. They are no less Jewish and less Ancient Israelite than Ashkenazim or Sephardim or Mizrahim are, and many of them are moving to Israel in which they'll assimilate into the Israeli culture.

Why are you so obsessed with where Jews come from? Honestly this seems like an unhealthy obsession given the fact that you aren't Jewish.

The Jewish people are a TRIBE, and we existed way before people knew what genetic markers were. We never defined ourselves according to genetics, but to tradition. The Ancient Israelites also came from other groups of people (Philistines, Moabites, Edomites, etc), but they were still Ancient Israelites because they identified as the Ancient Israelite people.

[Jana]

plus many jews aren't gracile at all and most of them resemble Southern Europeans, that woman could pass as a blonde Iberian or blonde Southern French easily.

Most Jews I saw were gracile. But yeah, she can pass for light Iberian or light southern French. Jews and southern Europeans obviously overlap.
But ask Swedes, Germans or Russians would she look typical for them and see what they answer.

[Leto]

Many Jews look white, but you can still see they are Jewish, if you are familiar enough with their facial features. Mark Zuckerberg for example also looks like a light Jew. New York is full of Ashkenazis who look like that.
Is Meirav Cohen, the minister for social equality in Israel, one of such cases? She was born in Jerusalem to Moroccan Sephardic parents
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%91_%D7%9B%D7%94%D7%9F_-_%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%9F_%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8 %D7%90%D7%9C.jpg/367px-%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%91_%D7%9B%D7%94%D7%9F_-_%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%9F_%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8 %D7%90%D7%9C.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meirav_Cohen

I swear there are Belorussians that are swarthier than her. And the Sephardim are not even white as a group. But you don't care much about pigmentation, do you.

[Hamilcar]

Because you're a brown guy who doesn't recognize she has typical woggish/east med like eyes shape, lips and nose.

Don't lecture me about Europeans when you are immigrant and I am 100% native one.
And I saw much more Jews than you ever did.

yes i can see that ....:lol:

Literally post a random french looking person and pretend "she still looks jewish" hahahahahah Being "native one" won't make you necessarily more knowledgeable than me on this topic, you're from a little and insignificant slav country in eastern europe where you all looked the same meanwhile I've been exposed to a wide variety of people throughout all my life.

[Meerkat]

Is Meirav Cohen, the minister for social equality in Israel, one of such cases? She was born in Jerusalem to Moroccan Sephardic parents
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%91_%D7%9B%D7%94%D7%9F_-_%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%9F_%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8 %D7%90%D7%9C.jpg/367px-%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%91_%D7%9B%D7%94%D7%9F_-_%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%9F_%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8 %D7%90%D7%9C.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meirav_Cohen

I swear there are Belorussians that are swarthier than her. And the Sephardim are not even white as a group. But you don't care much about pigmentation, do you.

She doesn't look common for an Ashkenazi or a Moroccan Sephardi.

[Leto]

The thing is that that's not the usual argument they use to defend israel. If an israeli tells me what you wrote I would agree with him but no they prefer to lie and twist the datas and propagate their dangerous ideology.
According to Pew Research around half of Israeli Jews want the Arabs to be removed from the country.

[Meerkat]

Is Meirav Cohen, the minister for social equality in Israel, one of such cases? She was born in Jerusalem to Moroccan Sephardic parents
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%91_%D7%9B%D7%94%D7%9F_-_%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%9F_%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8 %D7%90%D7%9C.jpg/367px-%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%91_%D7%9B%D7%94%D7%9F_-_%D7%97%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%9F_%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%A9%D7%A8 %D7%90%D7%9C.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meirav_Cohen

I swear there are Belorussians that are swarthier than her. And the Sephardim are not even white as a group. But you don't care much about pigmentation, do you.

She doesn't look common for an Ashkenazi or a Moroccan Sephardi. At all.

[Jana]

There was a Moroccan Jewish user (Sp Loa) who looked completely (non southern) European. But such exceptions to the rule don't mean much.

[TheForeigner]

Jews are both white and Middle Eastern or at least the light Caucasoid groups are. It's the Caucasian race, not the European race. What do some of you mean saying they are not white. You don't even have to like them for them to be white. And let's not pretend they generally look more like Arabs or that different from Europeans. They are generally as light as most Europeans and features are not that different.

[Turul Karom]

Land belong to those who conquer it and can keep it. Ancestors of southern Slavs or Anatolian Turks asked none for permission but conquered their new homelands with fire and sword.
That is natural human way, all else is talk for losers.

Jews have ethnical and historical connection to Israel, but even if they didn't have, they'd have right to the Land they are obviously smart enough to keep and nurture to make it prosper.
Obviously Arabs would remove and exterminate them if they could, but they can't, and that's why they are frustrated and cry about illegitimate state of Israel (loool)

As if spread of Arab languages and Islam went by peace.

The eternal truth. The future belongs to those who show up and who occupy the space. It is true that borders are just a social construct. Like clothing, they keep you established and presentable, but they can be discarded and ignored by people serious about ignoring or violating them, and it would be up to you to keep yourself integral and whole, nobody else.

A "nation" is made of the people. Anything else calling itself a "nation" is a paper nation that has been subverted and will fall apart in favor of a people who have an identity.

[Hamilcar]

According to Pew Research around half of Israeli Jews want the Arabs to be removed from the country.

Yes because they view them as peninsular arab invaders who came during the arab conquest of the VIIth century. While they consider themselves the chosen middle eastern people who gloriously come back after 2000 years of exile.

None of them will ever accept the fact palestinians are in fact more indigenous than them and not simply "arabs".

[TheForeigner]

However Jews are not Europeans. I can believe this Moor is saying large masses of people disliked Jews for "political reasons" and not for being different by religion and custom in a way no indigenous European group was.:picard1:

[Hamilcar]

The eternal truth. The future belongs to those who show up and who occupy the space. It is true that borders are just a social construct. Like clothing, they keep you established and presentable, but they can be discarded and ignored by people serious about ignoring or violating them, and it would be up to you to keep yourself integral and whole, nobody else.

A "nation" is made of the people. Anything else calling itself a "nation" is a paper nation that has been subverted and will fall apart in favor of a people who have an identity.

true my people are now indigenous to most of western europe.