Update on Jewish DNA

[Pine]

A lot has happened while you guys were jerking off over phenotypes. We now have autosomals for: Cochin, Bene Israel, Bukharians, Kurdish Jews, French Ashkenazim, etc and I can share limited information about Krymchaks and Crimean Karaites. We also have a better understanding of ancient DNA as it relates to Jews. Ask away and I'll see what I can share.

[Figaro]

Clarity on the Southern European component within Ashkenazim? Is there significant Greek admix?

Edit: I know you did not mention East-of-France AJ’s, just didn’t know if it came up...

[Pine]

Clarity on the Southern European component within Ashkenazim? Is there significant Greek admix?

Due to the overlap in Western Jews and PCAs with drift, there has to be, whether by proxy or directly.

[Pine]

Edit: I know you did not mention East-of-France AJ’s, just didn’t know if it came up...

Ask away. We have regionals for almost all relevant groups. Don't have too many samples for select subregions like Podolia, but enough country-wide samples.

[Leto]

I already asked you how much Iron Age Levant you get from G25 models.

[Hamilcar]

A lot has happened while you guys were jerking off over phenotypes. We now have autosomals for: Cochin, Bene Israel, Bukharians, Kurdish Jews, French Ashkenazim, etc and I can share limited information about Krymchaks and Crimean Karaites. We also have a better understanding of ancient DNA as it relates to Jews. Ask away and I'll see what I can share.



We find that, as reported by several previous studies, the genetics of Cochin Jews resembles that of local Indian populations. However, we also identify considerable Jewish genetic ancestry that is not present in any other Indian or Pakistani populations (with the exception of the Jewish Bene Israel, which we characterized previously). Combined, Cochin Jews have both Jewish and Indian ancestry. Specifically, we detect a significant recent Jewish gene flow into this community 13–22 generations (~470–730 years) ago, with contributions from Yemenite, Sephardi, and Middle-Eastern Jews, in accordance with historical records. Genetic analyses also point to high endogamy and a recent population bottleneck in this population, which might explain the increased prevalence of some recessive diseases in Cochin Jews.


https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00439-016-1698-y



Admixture demonstrates the connection of Ashkenazi, North African, and Sephardi Jews, with the most similar non-Jewish populations to Ashkenazi Jews being Mediterranean Europeans from Italy (Sicily, Abruzzo, Tuscany), Greece, and Cyprus. When subtracting the k5 component, which perhaps originates in Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews from admixture with European hosts, the best matches for membership patterns of the Ashkenazi Jews shift to the Levant: Cypriots, Druze, Lebanese, and Samaritans.

https://bioone.org/journals/human-biology/volume-85/issue-6/027.085.0604/No-Evidence-from-Genome-Wide-Data-of-a-Khazar-Origin/10.3378/027.085.0604.short



However, Ashkenazim have an elevated frequency of R-M17, the dominant Y chromosome haplogroup in Eastern Europeans, suggesting possible gene flow. In the present study of 495 Y chromosomes of Ashkenazim, 57 (11.5%) were found to belong to R-M17. Detailed analyses of haplotype structure, diversity and geographic distribution suggest a founder effect for this haplogroup, introduced at an early stage into the evolving Ashkenazi community in Europe. R-M17 chromosomes in Ashkenazim may represent vestiges of the mysterious Khazars.

https://www.nature.com/articles/5201319



A striking finding from our study is the consistent detection of 3–5% sub-Saharan African ancestry in the 8 diverse Jewish groups we studied, Ashkenazis (from northern Europe), Sephardis (from Italy, Turkey and Greece), and Mizrahis (from Syria, Iran and Iraq). This pattern has not been detected in previous analyses of mitochondrial DNA and Y chromosome data [7],

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1001373#s3



Two major differences among the populations in this study were the high degree of European admixture (30%–60%) among the Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Italian, and Syrian Jews and the genetic proximity of these populations to each other compared to their proximity to Iranian and Iraqi Jews. This time of a split between Middle Eastern Iraqi and Iranian Jews and European/Syrian Jews, calculated by simulation and comparison of length distributions of IBD segments, is 100–150 generations, compatible with a historical divide that is reported to have occurred more than 2500 years ago.2, 5 The Middle Eastern populations were formed by Jews in the Babylonian and Persian empires who are thought to have remained geographically continuous in those locales. In contrast, the other Jewish populations were formed more recently from Jews who migrated or were expelled from Palestine and from individuals who were converted to Judaism during Hellenic-Hasmonean times, when proselytism was a common Jewish practice. During Greco-Roman times, recorded mass conversions led to 6 million people practicing Judaism in Roman times or up to 10% of the population of the Roman Empire. Thus, the genetic proximity of these European/Syrian Jewish populations, including Ashkenazi Jews, to each other and to French, Northern Italian, and Sardinian populations favors the idea of non-Semitic Mediterranean ancestry in the formation of the European/Syrian Jewish groups and is incompatible with theories that Ashkenazi Jews are for the most part the direct lineal descendants of converted Khazars or Slavs.32 The genetic proximity of Ashkenazi Jews to southern European populations has been observed in several other recent studies.33, 34, 35, 36

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929710002466#sec4


when will you start accepting reality ?

[StonyArabia]

A lot has happened while you guys were jerking off over phenotypes. We now have autosomals for: Cochin, Bene Israel, Bukharians, Kurdish Jews, French Ashkenazim, etc and I can share limited information about Krymchaks and Crimean Karaites. We also have a better understanding of ancient DNA as it relates to Jews. Ask away and I'll see what I can share.

Kurdish Jews are very genetically different from Muslim Kurds. They are almost identical to Assyrians. Not to mention that they could are probably descendants of the kingdom of Adiabene, where large amount of native Mesopotamians converted to Judaism. They almost share no genetic ties to Muslim Kurds who are related to Azeris and Persians. Kurdish Jews just got kurdified linguistically and culturally.

[Leto]

It would be good to have all the major Jewish groups ranked by their share of Middle Eastern ancestry. I'm not really interested in some small and more obscure subgroups.

[Pine]

I already asked you how much Iron Age Levant you get from G25 models.

Depends on what other samples are included in the model. 30-70.

[Leto]

Depends on what other samples are included in the model. 30-70.
The two Iron Age Levant samples (Abel and Megiddo). I'm interested in how much Biblical ancestry you guys have.

[Pine]

Kurdish Jews are very genetically different from Muslim Kurds. They are almost identical to Assyrians. Not to mention that they could are probably descendants of the kingdom of Adiabene, where large amount of native Mesopotamians converted to Judaism. They almost share no genetic ties to Muslim Kurds who are related to Azeris and Persians. Kurdish Jews just got kurdified linguistically and culturally.

They do have an Iranic component - it's just hard to pinpoint from where. Could be Kurdish admix. Some of the overlap with Assyrians is coincidental for them and other Mizrachim. They do have genuine Assyrian admixture and plot very close by, but end up being different upon closer inspection.

[happycow]

What about Lebanese Jews? Who are they most similar to?

[Pine]

The two Iron Age Levant samples (Abel and Megiddo). I'm interested in how much Biblical ancestry you guys have.

I told you: depends on what other samples are included in the model. Also, Beirut IA III is likely more appropriate.

[Pine]

What about Lebanese Jews? Who are they most similar to?

Lebanese Jews are almost entirely Syrian Jews.

[Leto]

I told you: depends on what other samples are included in the model. Also, Beirut IA III is likely more appropriate.
So you would say there would have been a serious genetic admixture between Moses and Jesus? Yes, I do believe Moses is historical as the rest of the Old Testament. Not gonna debate about it, not the best place for that kind of discussions, to say the least.

[Pine]

So you would say there would have been a serious genetic admixture between Moses and Jesus? Yes, I do believe Moses is historical as the rest of the Old Testament. Not gonna debate about this, not the best place for this to say the least.


I estimate Jesus was 70% Moses.

[Leto]

I estimate Jesus was 70% Moses.
Hm, interesting. And the 30 percent came from Iran and Anatolia?

[Pine]

Hm, interesting. And the 30 percent came from Iran and Anatolia?

The same estimate points it to being mostly Greece and Anatolia.

[Leto]

The same estimate points it to being mostly Greece and Anatolia.
Didn't know there was European ancestry in Jews before 70 AD. If Jesus was 70 percent Moses as you put it, then the Ashkenazim should be around 35% at most.

[Pine]

For those of you who can't grow out of Gedmatch, what's this guy:

Population
North_Atlantic 9.41 Pct
Baltic 7.34 Pct
West_Med 13.99 Pct
West_Asian 22.87 Pct
East_Med 33 Pct
Red_Sea 6.57 Pct
South_Asian 3.06 Pct
East_Asian 1.94 Pct
Siberian 1.83 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

?

[Jased]

What's the average European admixture of Askenazi Jews and Israel?

[Pine]

What's the average European admixture of Askenazi Jews and Israel?

Shouldn't be different from Ashkenazi Jews elsewhere, unless Israel is tilted toward a given subgroup of Ashkenazim, which I don't think it is. About 11% East European for Eastern Ashkenazi Jews. Other European isn't as clear.

[Jased]

Shouldn't be different from Ashkenazi Jews elsewhere, unless Israel is tilted toward a given subgroup of Ashkenazim, which I don't think it is. About 11% East European for Eastern Ashkenazi Jews. Other European isn't as clear.

You still didn't answer my question. I asked the average European admixture. Is the average Jew only 11% European? Yeah I don't think so.

[Smitty]

Shouldn't be different from Ashkenazi Jews elsewhere, unless Israel is tilted toward a given subgroup of Ashkenazim, which I don't think it is. About 11% East European for Eastern Ashkenazi Jews. Other European isn't as clear.

That much EE, huh?

[Pine]

That much EE, huh?

Assuming the model that Eastern Ashkenazim descend from Western Ashkenazim and no other Jewish groups. It goes down if you assume other things.

[Leto]

For those of you who can't grow out of Gedmatch, what's this guy:

Population
North_Atlantic 9.41 Pct
Baltic 7.34 Pct
West_Med 13.99 Pct
West_Asian 22.87 Pct
East_Med 33 Pct
Red_Sea 6.57 Pct
South_Asian 3.06 Pct
East_Asian 1.94 Pct
Siberian 1.83 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

?
An Ashkenazi-Mizrahi mix?

Actually adding some of those new Jewish pops to Gedmatch would be a good idea.

[Ion Basescul]

For those of you who can't grow out of Gedmatch, what's this guy:

Population
North_Atlantic 9.41 Pct
Baltic 7.34 Pct
West_Med 13.99 Pct
West_Asian 22.87 Pct
East_Med 33 Pct
Red_Sea 6.57 Pct
South_Asian 3.06 Pct
East_Asian 1.94 Pct
Siberian 1.83 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

?

Looks like a Crimean Jew

[DontFxxkWithWendy]

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00439-016-1698-y




https://bioone.org/journals/human-biology/volume-85/issue-6/027.085.0604/No-Evidence-from-Genome-Wide-Data-of-a-Khazar-Origin/10.3378/027.085.0604.short




https://www.nature.com/articles/5201319




https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1001373#s3




https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929710002466#sec4


when will you start accepting reality ?

The difference between Anthrogenica and Apricity is that the people on Apricity are outright dumb, but the people on Anthrogenica are fucking dumb but can’t accept it so they act like pseudo-intellectual cunts. You can cite all the sources you want but they’ll still do a 1000 page circlejerk about how Jews are actually Aegeans or whatever.

[Pine]

The difference between Anthrogenica and Apricity is that the people on Apricity are outright dumb, but the people on Anthrogenica are fucking dumb but can’t accept it so they act like pseudo-intellectual cunts. You can cite all the sources you want but they’ll still do a 1000 page circlejerk about how Jews are actually Aegeans or whatever.

If you don't think Aegean is a large component in Western Jews, what are Western Jews made of?

[Pine]

Looks like a Crimean Jew

Crimean Karaite. Good Job.

[RogueState]

What's the % of "Berber" admixture among North African Jews ?

I thought they can be modeled as 65% Druze + 35% Spanish, but that means they would have 0% indigenous Berber ? It seems to me unlikely

[Hulu]

What are the IBD sharing percentages with South Italians, Eastern Europeans and ME populations?

[Hulu]

If you don't think Aegean is a large component in Western Jews, what are Western Jews made of?

Iberians

[Leto]

How close are the Bukharan Jews to the Persian Jews? Very close or not so much?

[Pine]

What's the % of "Berber" admixture among North African Jews ?

I thought they can be modeled as 65% Druze + 35% Spanish, but that means they would have 0% indigenous Berber ? It seems to me unlikely

~20%, but it obviously varies by region and subtype of North African Jew.

Tunisian and Libyan Jews are fairly different from Moroccan and Algerian Jews.

[Pine]

How close are the Bukharan Jews to the Persian Jews? Very close or not so much?

You mean autosomal distance?

Distance to: Bukharian_Jew
0.02828280 Georgian_Jew_10
0.02852096 North Caucasus_Mountain_Jew
0.03180318 Azerbaijani_Jewish_3
0.03180901 Iranian_Jew_15
0.03192978 Iranian_Jew
0.04132000 Kurdish_JewA
0.04644318 Iraqi_Jew_9
0.06071432 Karaite_Egypt
0.06155852 Syrian_Jew
0.07391357 Latvian_Jews_2
0.07757760 Romaniote_Jew
0.07797707 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.07991873 Turkish_Jews_10
0.08040507 Austrian_Jews_2
0.08064368 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.08066810 France_Jews_8
0.08106752 Bulgarian_Jews_2
0.08121591 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.08168624 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.08177373 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.08314387 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.08475307 Italian_Jews_9
0.08768256 Algerian_Jews_7
0.08805908 Libyan_Jews_11
0.08897320 Tunisian_Jews_9

[Leto]

You mean autosomal distance?

Distance to: Bukharian_Jew
0.02828280 Georgian_Jew_10
0.02852096 North Caucasus_Mountain_Jew
0.03180318 Azerbaijani_Jewish_3
0.03180901 Iranian_Jew_15
0.03192978 Iranian_Jew
0.04132000 Kurdish_JewA
0.04644318 Iraqi_Jew_9
0.06071432 Karaite_Egypt
0.06155852 Syrian_Jew
0.07391357 Latvian_Jews_2
0.07757760 Romaniote_Jew
0.07797707 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
0.07991873 Turkish_Jews_10
0.08040507 Austrian_Jews_2
0.08064368 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
0.08066810 France_Jews_8
0.08106752 Bulgarian_Jews_2
0.08121591 Ashkenazi_Russia
0.08168624 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.08177373 Ashkenazi_Poland
0.08314387 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
0.08475307 Italian_Jews_9
0.08768256 Algerian_Jews_7
0.08805908 Libyan_Jews_11
0.08897320 Tunisian_Jews_9
Yes. They don't seem to have much East Iranic admixture if any. Culturally they are Persian/Tajik speakers and wear Central Asian gowns and tyubeteikas.

[Leto]

French Ashkenazim should be pretty Middle Eastern, close to 40% East Med because that's close to or exactly around the Lower Rhine i.e. the initial Ashkenazi dispersal area. But most Jews in modern France are from Algeria (curiously enough most Jews in Rome are of Libyan origin).

[RogueState]

~20%, but it obviously varies by region and subtype of North African Jew.

Tunisian and Libyan Jews are fairly different from Moroccan and Algerian Jews.

Tunisian and Libyan (Tripolitaim) Jews have more indigenous Berber I think ?

Because the old communities of Moroccans and Algerian Jews (Toshavim) absorbed a backward migrations of real Sephardim (Megorashim), and thus become more "European"

Except maybe old isolated communities from deep Morocco (Rissani, Tinghir, Tafilalet, from where the Baba Sale is from) and deep Algeria (Bechar, Mzab)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGwGuxQjgLI

But I guess it's hard to find tests from them, since most are mixed nowadays in Israel

[Pine]

Yes. They don't seem to have much East Iranic admixture if any. Culturally they are Persian/Tajik speakers and wear Central Asian gowns and tyubeteikas.

They do have Iranic admixture. It's harder to pinpoint the exact type.

[RogueState]

French Ashkenazim should be pretty Middle Eastern, close to 40% East Med because that's close to or exactly around the Lower Rhine i.e. the initial Ashkenazi dispersal area. But most Jews in modern France are from Algeria (curiously enough most Jews in Rome are of Libyan origin).

There are still many Ashkenazim among French Jews, although they are more secular than Algerian ones

[Pine]

French Ashkenazim should be pretty Middle Eastern, close to 40% East Med because that's close to or exactly around the Lower Rhine i.e. the initial Ashkenazi dispersal area. But most Jews in modern France are from Algeria (curiously enough most Jews in Rome are of Libyan origin).

These are French Ashkenazim.

[Leto]

These are French Ashkenazim.
Where? Did you intend to add something later on?

[Pine]

Where? Did you intend to add something later on?

The ones in the oracle I posted.

[Pine]

What are the IBD sharing percentages with South Italians, Eastern Europeans and ME populations?

This was done a while ago. Predictably, segment size increased by recency of (bidirectional) admixture.

[Pine]

Iberians

Why not Albanians?

[Leto]

I have my own model for Central Asia, obviously it's not designed for Jews but I ran some averages out of curiosity and Eastern Ashkenazim seem to be only about 1/4 Levant Megiddo MLBA.

[Pine]

I have my own model for Central Asia, obviously it's not designed for Jews but I ran some averages out of curiosity and Eastern Ashkenazim seem to be only about 1/4 Levant Megiddo MLBA.

25% MLBA is technically possible.

[Leto]

25% MLBA is technically possible.
The Leb Christian avg is 65% Megiddo MLBA in case you may wonder.

[Pine]

The Leb Christian avg is 65% Megiddo MLBA in case you may wonder.

I'd need to see the models, but results aren't insane.

[Leto]

I'd need to see the models, but results aren't insane.
Like I said, it's not for Jews, not even for the Middle East in general, it's chiefly for Steppe ancestry in Central Asia but here are the results:

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 3.0505% / 0.03050471
44.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
30.2 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
23.4 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.8 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
0.8 KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 2.8186% / 0.02818563
46.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
30.2 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
22.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
1.4 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
0.4 KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 2.9847% / 0.02984734
44.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
28.8 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
25.8 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.6 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
0.6 KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 2.6234% / 0.02623425
44.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
29.2 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
24.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
1.2 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
0.6 KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 2.9661% / 0.02966134
47.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
28.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
24.0 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
0.8 KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia
Distance: 2.5983% / 0.02598311
46.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
30.0 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
22.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
1.0 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
0.4 KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP

[Pine]

Like I said, it's not for Jews, not even for the Middle East in general, it's chiefly for Steppe ancestry in Central Asia but here are the results:

Target: Ashkenazi_Ukraine
Distance: 3.0505% / 0.03050471
44.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
30.2 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
23.4 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.8 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
0.8 KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP

Target: Ashkenazi_Russia
Distance: 2.8186% / 0.02818563
46.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
30.2 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
22.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
1.4 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
0.4 KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP

Target: Ashkenazi_Poland
Distance: 2.9847% / 0.02984734
44.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
28.8 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
25.8 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.6 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
0.6 KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP

Target: Ashkenazi_Lithuania
Distance: 2.6234% / 0.02623425
44.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
29.2 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
24.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
1.2 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
0.6 KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP

Target: Ashkenazi_Germany
Distance: 2.9661% / 0.02966134
47.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
28.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
24.0 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
0.8 KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP

Target: Ashkenazi_Belarussia
Distance: 2.5983% / 0.02598311
46.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
30.0 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
22.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
1.0 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
0.4 KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP

Yeah, it's missing Berber and North European references for Ashkenazim. Post the references - I'll run it on myself for shits and giggles.

[Leto]

Yeah, it's missing Berber and North European references for Ashkenazim. Post the references - I'll run it on myself for shits and giggles.
Well, KAZ Aktogai were basically white people, even though it says Kazakhstan. They score like 40% North Atlantic and 30% Baltic on Gedmatch (I have an aggregate average). So technically that should include North European. Yes, the Berber/North African is missing and I don't know any culture of the same period which could be added.


MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave,0.0247883,-0.4316,0.0744604,-0.0324077,-0.0641144,-0.0424223,0.0110716,0.0203838,0.0101353,0.0177378,-0.0425639,-0.0023647,-0.000165,0.0003823,4.51e-05,-0.0017383,0.0008403,-0.0046594,-0.0001953,0.0198567,-0.0247064,-0.0017723,-0.0200073,-0.0059041,0.0012639
RUS_Yakutia_Ymyiakhtakh_LN,0.0364232,-0.4186518,0.135575,-0.0031492,-0.1417958,-0.0745335,0.0231485,0.032191,0.023111,0.003508,0.0 64387,0.0022855,0.001821,-0.0322725,-0.0293495,-0.019358,0.0014992,0.0118135,0.0232855,0.006128,0. 0260477,-0.025225,0.0051148,0.0064162,0.0107775
CHN_Yellow_River_LN,0.0166466,-0.4503874,0.0109365,-0.0657709,0.0545101,0.0217886,0.0037894,0.0012404,-0.0097149,0.0040092,-0.0851524,-0.0100032,0.0123945,-0.0059179,-0.0088896,-0.000895,0.001483,-0.0003801,-0.0048392,-0.0075191,0.0172975,0.007543,0.0128639,-0.0006476,0.0073496
KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA,0.1238396,0.1092712,0.057247,0.08 03624,0.006832,0.0277774,0.0055462,0.0020308,-0.0176302,-0.028356,-0.0004872,-0.0001198,0.0004164,-0.0231206,0.0219864,0.0119594,-0.007171,-0.001723,-0.0012318,0.0021012,-0.0054654,0.00413,-0.0005918,0.0059282,-0.0022992
Levant_Megiddo_MLBA,0.0861261,0.1455592,-0.0646134,-0.1002072,-0.014596,-0.0394563,-0.0045434,-0.0097249,0.0131382,0.0089382,0.0103465,-0.0088707,0.0219027,0.0020119,-0.007316,0.005411,-0.0024898,0.004217,0.0036812,0.0073607,0.0047534,0 .0040982,-0.0049357,-0.0025361,-0.0014427
TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA,0.1050018,0.1515678,-0.042332,-0.082365,-0.0040775,-0.0274705,-0.0024088,-0.0077882,-0.011402,0.028429,0.0097435,0.007006,-0.0120788,0.0030965,-0.0138435,-0.004475,0.0116693,-0.0021538,0.0087988,-0.00741,-0.0031817,0.0061828,-0.0048065,0.0030725,-0.001407
IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C,0.0780205,0.0973985,-0.1210557,-0.0128319,-0.0964655,0.0129052,0.0135666,-0.0041957,-0.0710069,-0.0366129,-0.0049454,-0.0008311,-0.0011082,-0.0034781,0.0189268,0.0286995,-0.0069221,0.0043305,0.0072791,-0.0235001,0.0067043,-0.0146134,-0.0055349,-0.0227852,0.01339
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2,0.043708,-0.0327002,-0.170006,0.0950268,-0.1047582,0.0568936,0.0063452,0.0041998,0.0056858, 0.0067428,-0.0051964,0.0079128,-0.0018436,-0.0031928,0.0098534,0.0097852,-0.0023732,0.0025084,0.0016342,-0.0142568,0.0029694,-0.0125136,-0.0011832,-0.0119052,0.001317
KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP,-0.528139,0.049761,-0.012445,0.010013,-0.016926,0.008367,0.098469,-0.08192,0.06422,-0.052848,-0.013316,0.018733,-0.029583,-0.011973,0.017372,-0.007425,0.027902,0.03978,-0.008925,-0.004127,-0.005865,0.017806,-0.007518,0.003494,0.00467

[Pine]

Well, KAZ Aktogai were basically white people, even though it says Kazakhstan. They score like 40% North Atlantic and 30% Baltic on Gedmatch (I have an aggregate average). So technically that should include North European. Yes, the Berber/North African is missing and I don't know any culture of the same period which could be added.


MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave,0.0247883,-0.4316,0.0744604,-0.0324077,-0.0641144,-0.0424223,0.0110716,0.0203838,0.0101353,0.0177378,-0.0425639,-0.0023647,-0.000165,0.0003823,4.51e-05,-0.0017383,0.0008403,-0.0046594,-0.0001953,0.0198567,-0.0247064,-0.0017723,-0.0200073,-0.0059041,0.0012639
RUS_Yakutia_Ymyiakhtakh_LN,0.0364232,-0.4186518,0.135575,-0.0031492,-0.1417958,-0.0745335,0.0231485,0.032191,0.023111,0.003508,0.0 64387,0.0022855,0.001821,-0.0322725,-0.0293495,-0.019358,0.0014992,0.0118135,0.0232855,0.006128,0. 0260477,-0.025225,0.0051148,0.0064162,0.0107775
CHN_Yellow_River_LN,0.0166466,-0.4503874,0.0109365,-0.0657709,0.0545101,0.0217886,0.0037894,0.0012404,-0.0097149,0.0040092,-0.0851524,-0.0100032,0.0123945,-0.0059179,-0.0088896,-0.000895,0.001483,-0.0003801,-0.0048392,-0.0075191,0.0172975,0.007543,0.0128639,-0.0006476,0.0073496
KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA,0.1238396,0.1092712,0.057247,0.08 03624,0.006832,0.0277774,0.0055462,0.0020308,-0.0176302,-0.028356,-0.0004872,-0.0001198,0.0004164,-0.0231206,0.0219864,0.0119594,-0.007171,-0.001723,-0.0012318,0.0021012,-0.0054654,0.00413,-0.0005918,0.0059282,-0.0022992
Levant_Megiddo_MLBA,0.0861261,0.1455592,-0.0646134,-0.1002072,-0.014596,-0.0394563,-0.0045434,-0.0097249,0.0131382,0.0089382,0.0103465,-0.0088707,0.0219027,0.0020119,-0.007316,0.005411,-0.0024898,0.004217,0.0036812,0.0073607,0.0047534,0 .0040982,-0.0049357,-0.0025361,-0.0014427
TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA,0.1050018,0.1515678,-0.042332,-0.082365,-0.0040775,-0.0274705,-0.0024088,-0.0077882,-0.011402,0.028429,0.0097435,0.007006,-0.0120788,0.0030965,-0.0138435,-0.004475,0.0116693,-0.0021538,0.0087988,-0.00741,-0.0031817,0.0061828,-0.0048065,0.0030725,-0.001407
IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C,0.0780205,0.0973985,-0.1210557,-0.0128319,-0.0964655,0.0129052,0.0135666,-0.0041957,-0.0710069,-0.0366129,-0.0049454,-0.0008311,-0.0011082,-0.0034781,0.0189268,0.0286995,-0.0069221,0.0043305,0.0072791,-0.0235001,0.0067043,-0.0146134,-0.0055349,-0.0227852,0.01339
IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2,0.043708,-0.0327002,-0.170006,0.0950268,-0.1047582,0.0568936,0.0063452,0.0041998,0.0056858, 0.0067428,-0.0051964,0.0079128,-0.0018436,-0.0031928,0.0098534,0.0097852,-0.0023732,0.0025084,0.0016342,-0.0142568,0.0029694,-0.0125136,-0.0011832,-0.0119052,0.001317
KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP,-0.528139,0.049761,-0.012445,0.010013,-0.016926,0.008367,0.098469,-0.08192,0.06422,-0.052848,-0.013316,0.018733,-0.029583,-0.011973,0.017372,-0.007425,0.027902,0.03978,-0.008925,-0.004127,-0.005865,0.017806,-0.007518,0.003494,0.00467


Doesn't work this way. These references in general aren't time appropriate. When you're getting fits >2 for modern population averages, you know your model isn't appropriate. In general, why are you using references that ancient and spanning Neolithic to Bronze Age?

Anyway, look how unlevantine I am:

Target: Me_scaled
Distance: 2.6187% / 0.02618684
54.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
21.6 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
21.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
2.0 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
0.8 KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP

While that KAZ reference is closest to North Euros, it's still radically different. Check how far it is from modern North Euros:


Distance to: KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
0.06528390 Swedish
0.06550214 Norwegian
0.06625724 Icelandic
0.06682674 Finnish
0.06829113 Danish
0.06875396 Ingrian
0.06902598 Shetlandic
0.06965367 Irish
0.06994841 Dutch
0.07026655 Orcadian
0.07080530 Scottish
0.07137840 Nordva_Moksha
0.07156444 Russian_Kostroma
0.07188706 Mordva_Erzya
0.07338399 Russian_Ryazan
0.07435290 Russian_Tver
0.07457288 Moldovan_o
0.07482297 Russian_Kursk
0.07517981 Czech
0.07536388 Afrikaner
0.07576120 German_East
0.07599510 English
0.07632806 Russian_Krasnoborsky
0.07637845 Welsh
0.07641232 Slovakian


That Turkish reference is going to eat up some post MLBA Levantine:

Distance to: TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.03523072 Cypriot
0.03761638 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04051698 Greek_Cappadocia
0.04195622 Greek_Dodecanese
0.04380109 Greek_Kos
0.04598756 Romaniote_Jew
0.04664703 Druze
0.04782494 Lebanese_Christian
0.04987324 Lebanese_Druze
0.05012130 Syrian_Jew
0.05348296 Sephardic_Jew
0.05467909 Palestinian_Beit_Sahour
0.05540936 Italian_Jew
0.05590048 Karaite_Egypt
0.05659734 Greek_Crete
0.05694577 Turkish_Trabzon
0.05853727 Italian_Calabria
0.05920958 Syrian_West
0.05933382 Lebanese_Muslim
0.06010914 Greek_Trabzon
0.06063381 Ashkenazi_Germany
0.06076711 Armenian
0.06111853 Iraqi_Jew
0.06189927 Italian_Campania
0.06461021 Tunisian_Jew

Anyway, here is a more time appropriate model:

Target: Me_scaled
Distance: 1.4678% / 0.01467838
54.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
18.2 HRV_IA
9.8 DEU_MA_Alemannic
5.6 ITA_Etruscan
5.2 RUS_Alan_MA
4.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche
2.8 CHN_Layi_1400BP
0.0 KAZ_Nomad_MA
0.0 VK2020_POL_Bodzia_VA
0.0 VK2020_RUS_Kurevanikha_VA

[Leto]

Doesn't work this way. These references in general aren't time appropriate. When you're getting fits >2 for modern population averages, you know your model isn't appropriate. In general, why are you using references that ancient and spanning Neolithic to Bronze Age?

The Neolithic period ended in some parts of the world later than in others. They are all roughly between 3000 and 2000 BC, save for the Mongoloid ones but they didn't change much between those periods. And why is a distance of 2-3 that bad? When it's like 0.5-1 people would say that's overfitting.

[Leto]

Anyway, here is a more time appropriate model:

Target: Me_scaled
Distance: 1.4678% / 0.01467838
54.2 Levant_Beirut_IAIII
18.2 HRV_IA
9.8 DEU_MA_Alemannic
5.6 ITA_Etruscan
5.2 RUS_Alan_MA
4.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche
2.8 CHN_Layi_1400BP
0.0 KAZ_Nomad_MA
0.0 VK2020_POL_Bodzia_VA
0.0 VK2020_RUS_Kurevanikha_VA
So you're like 35% European excluding the Alan and Guanche that are still part Euro I think.

[Pine]

The Neolithic period ended in some parts of the world later than in others. They are all roughly between 3000 and 2000 BC, save for the Mongoloid ones but they didn't change much between those periods. And why is a distance of 2-3 that bad? When it's like 0.5-1 people would say that's overfitting.

Overfitting is better judged by the amount of (often similar) sources. Also, you should expect fits to be better when modelling populations than individuals. This is because random inheritance plays a much smaller role when modelling group averages.

[Pine]

So you're like 35% European excluding the Alan and Guanche that are still part Euro I think.

I'm not really concerned with the European %. Levant Beirut IAIII can be argued to be part European, as it's probably Aegean-admixed.

[Leto]

Overfitting is better judged by the amount of (often similar) sources. Also, you should expect fits to be better when modelling populations than individuals. This is because random inheritance plays a much smaller role when modelling group averages.
Yes, I've noticed that myself, averages tend to get smaller distances than individual samples. For Central Asia my model is okay, a average distance remains below 2.0 mostly. I made sure that none of the other components had any significant amount of Steppe in it.

[Gallop]

I guess with an 8.2% it's not a good fit for me, but I wanted to see what I could get.


Target: Gallop_scaled
Distance: 8.2116% / 0.08211596
53.6 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
45.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
1.0 KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP


Without the Turkish sample

Target: Gallop_scaled
Distance: 8.9870% / 0.08986974
61.6 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
38.4 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA


Distance to: Gallop_scaled
0.13031039 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
0.14449229 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.17579422 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.25851116 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
0.34325257 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.59889298 MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave
0.61646264 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
0.61817969 RUS_Yakutia_Ymyiakhtakh_LN
0.66934277 KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP


2WAY
Distance to: Juan_scaled
0.08236117 54.00% KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA + 46.00% TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.08986974 61.60% KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA + 38.40% Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.12753604 96.00% KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA + 4.00% KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP
0.12874515 91.80% KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA + 8.20% IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
0.14109142 5.00% RUS_Yakutia_Ymyiakhtakh_LN + 95.00% TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.14158886 4.80% MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave + 95.20% TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.14223377 4.00% CHN_Yellow_River_LN + 96.00% TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.14302759 97.00% TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA + 3.00% KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP
0.14384972 95.80% TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA + 4.20% IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.17181453 5.80% RUS_Yakutia_Ymyiakhtakh_LN + 94.20% Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.17243257 5.60% MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave + 94.40% Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.17322471 4.80% CHN_Yellow_River_LN + 95.20% Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.17402535 92.20% Levant_Megiddo_MLBA + 7.80% IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.17534286 98.00% Levant_Megiddo_MLBA + 2.00% KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP
0.25476102 7.20% RUS_Yakutia_Ymyiakhtakh_LN + 92.80% IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
0.25491324 7.40% MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave + 92.60% IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
0.25521309 6.80% CHN_Yellow_River_LN + 93.20% IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
0.25603490 94.60% IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C + 5.40% KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP
0.33830751 90.80% IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 + 9.20% KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP
0.34283464 3.20% RUS_Yakutia_Ymyiakhtakh_LN + 96.80% IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2
0.50376562 57.60% MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave + 42.40% KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP
0.50778403 55.20% RUS_Yakutia_Ymyiakhtakh_LN + 44.80% KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP
0.51315063 55.80% CHN_Yellow_River_LN + 44.20% KEN_Nyarindi_3500BP
0.59723176 49.00% RUS_Yakutia_Ymyiakhtakh_LN + 51.00% CHN_Yellow_River_LN
0.59829870 84.80% MNG_Ulaanzuukh_Slab_Grave + 15.20% CHN_Yellow_River_LN

[Hulu]

Why not Albanians?

Iberia had a historical jewish presence which Albania didnt have..



This was done a while ago. Predictably, segment size increased by recency of (bidirectional) admixture.

You are not answering the question. It was a genuine question but I see you don't like the result apparently.

[Pine]

Iberia had a historical jewish presence which Albania didnt have..




You are not answering the question. It was a genuine question but I see you don't like the result apparently.

And it was a genuine answer. You just refused to read it. Recency of admixture in order: East European, West European, South European, Middle Eastern. IBD in decreasing order: Eastern European, West European,Southern European, Middle Eastern.

[Hulu]

And it was a genuine answer. You just refused to read it. Recency of admixture in order: East European, West European, South European, Middle Eastern. IBD in decreasing order: Eastern European, West European,Southern European, Middle Eastern.

Any source and percentages? Which kind of west euro, spanish or others?

[Leto]

Are the Yemenite Jews less Judean than the Ashkenazim?

Distance to: Yemenite_Jew
0.01539558 Yemenite_Ma'rib
0.01660615 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.01941612 Saudi
0.02267227 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
0.02349473 BedouinB
0.02359521 Yemenite_Dhamar
0.02694156 Yemenite_Amran
0.03082710 Yemenite_Mahra
0.07296920 BedouinA
0.07842119 Palestinian

[RogueState]

Yemenite Jews (Temanim) seem to be full Yemenite converts, so to be honest, they are not more legitimate than Ashkenazim

Although they are indigenous "Middle Easterner", traditional and modest, religious, so it gives them a kind of sympathy :

https://youtu.be/oQK5jCEnIOA

https://youtu.be/dio4BIF-lOE

[Pine]

Are the Yemenite Jews less Judean than the Ashkenazim?

Distance to: Yemenite_Jew
0.01539558 Yemenite_Ma'rib
0.01660615 Yemenite_Al_Jawf
0.01941612 Saudi
0.02267227 Yemenite_Al_Bayda
0.02349473 BedouinB
0.02359521 Yemenite_Dhamar
0.02694156 Yemenite_Amran
0.03082710 Yemenite_Mahra
0.07296920 BedouinA
0.07842119 Palestinian

Yes.

[Pine]

Yemenite Jews (Temanim) seem to be full Yemenite converts, so to be honest, they are not more legitimate than Ashkenazim

Although they are indigenous "Middle Easterner", traditional and modest, religious, so it gives them a kind of sympathy :

https://youtu.be/oQK5jCEnIOA

https://youtu.be/dio4BIF-lOE

They're not entirely converts, but more so than other Jewish groups.

[RogueState]

Well, same story with Bene Israel of India or Ethiopian Jews, they are almost full "old" converts.

[Leto]

Yes.
Can you please try this model? It's loosely based on the one you used but with modern samples.


Lebanese_Christian,0.0881496,0.1457849,-0.0488581,-0.0788479,-0.0128912,-0.03074,-0.0004961,-0.0042818,0.0051812,0.0102254,0.0066579,-0.0045293,0.0103899,0,-0.0103147,0.0084709,-0.0021007,0.0017877,0.0025419,-0.0001251,0.0007627,-0.0003022,-0.0014104,0.0023564,-0.0012108
Moroccan_North,-0.0299735,0.1373221,-0.0030378,-0.0673993,0.0280564,-0.0319174,-0.0244542,0.0050512,0.0609822,0.0327317,0.0059091,-0.0065526,0.0185908,-0.0147102,0.0151403,-0.0105629,0.0012604,-0.0179828,-0.040747,0.0092961,-0.0121937,-0.0346297,0.0214382,-0.0055763,0.0043974
Chechen,0.1123053,0.1018914,-0.0315944,-0.0087928,-0.0350833,0.0090174,0.0085908,-0.0059229,-0.0552894,-0.0321748,-0.0009924,0.0075766,-0.0172117,-0.0052144,0.0110386,-0.0084268,0.0047664,-0.0058277,-0.0104608,0.0116306,0.0038682,0.002748,0.0039849,0 .0071494,-0.0046036
Italian_Lombardy,0.1245224,0.147861,0.0279822,-0.0137598,0.0327446,-0.007753,0.000658,0,0.0103898,0.0299232,-0.0025008,0.008932,-0.0143606,-0.0047066,-0.0008686,-0.0078758,-0.0083448,0.0017738,0.0034442,-0.004102,-0.002246,0.0012366,-0.0006656,0.0030602,0.0008382
Latvian,0.1354494,0.122473,0.0887742,0.089471,0.04 3208,0.0340246,0.0125966,0.0140762,-0.002168,-0.0368842,-0.0035728,-0.0138178,0.0232208,0.031378,-0.010559,0.0040572,0.0027118,-0.0003802,0.0016088,0.0043022,-0.0027952,-0.0057128,0.0090708,-0.0093264,0.0026346
Ukrainian,0.1309273,0.1240867,0.0683506,0.0575551, 0.0376867,0.0212936,0.0087651,0.0113072,-0.002891,-0.0210999,-0.0016327,-0.0076594,0.0153563,0.0216328,-0.0112354,-0.0010965,0.0046903,-0.0006985,0.0025989,0.0017002,-0.0044989,-0.003479,0.0067387,-0.0040578,0.0007217
Norwegian,0.1338234,0.1279567,0.0679357,0.0534334, 0.0386443,0.0210366,0.0041964,0.0062964,0.0057267, 0.0003906,-0.0037349,0.0036823,-0.007518,-0.011698,0.0210754,0.0093949,-0.0054203,0.0026061,0.0006823,0.0007503,0.005633,0 .0055643,0.0042784,0.0177304,0.0010947
Dai,0.0156507,-0.438709,-0.046763,-0.0609662,0.1201762,0.0622622,0.00047,-0.0073845,-0.0189698,-0.013121,0.0109208,0.0020232,-0.000446,-0.006193,0.0012895,0.0045742,0.0061282,-0.0009502,-0.0043368,-0.011662,0.0121972,0.0090268,0.0149438,0.002892,0. 007095
Yakut,0.0447324,-0.3753396,0.105971,-0.0228361,-0.1051273,-0.063085,0.0290002,0.0370139,0.0211478,0.0206291,0 .0275249,0.0094864,-0.0217043,0.063568,0.0354095,0.0218641,0.0073277,-0.015076,-0.0379986,-0.0301644,-0.0029074,0.0351297,0.0065321,-0.0009641,-0.0137831

[Pine]

Can you please try this model? It's loosely based on the one you used but with modern samples.


Lebanese_Christian,0.0881496,0.1457849,-0.0488581,-0.0788479,-0.0128912,-0.03074,-0.0004961,-0.0042818,0.0051812,0.0102254,0.0066579,-0.0045293,0.0103899,0,-0.0103147,0.0084709,-0.0021007,0.0017877,0.0025419,-0.0001251,0.0007627,-0.0003022,-0.0014104,0.0023564,-0.0012108
Moroccan_North,-0.0299735,0.1373221,-0.0030378,-0.0673993,0.0280564,-0.0319174,-0.0244542,0.0050512,0.0609822,0.0327317,0.0059091,-0.0065526,0.0185908,-0.0147102,0.0151403,-0.0105629,0.0012604,-0.0179828,-0.040747,0.0092961,-0.0121937,-0.0346297,0.0214382,-0.0055763,0.0043974
Chechen,0.1123053,0.1018914,-0.0315944,-0.0087928,-0.0350833,0.0090174,0.0085908,-0.0059229,-0.0552894,-0.0321748,-0.0009924,0.0075766,-0.0172117,-0.0052144,0.0110386,-0.0084268,0.0047664,-0.0058277,-0.0104608,0.0116306,0.0038682,0.002748,0.0039849,0 .0071494,-0.0046036
Italian_Lombardy,0.1245224,0.147861,0.0279822,-0.0137598,0.0327446,-0.007753,0.000658,0,0.0103898,0.0299232,-0.0025008,0.008932,-0.0143606,-0.0047066,-0.0008686,-0.0078758,-0.0083448,0.0017738,0.0034442,-0.004102,-0.002246,0.0012366,-0.0006656,0.0030602,0.0008382
Latvian,0.1354494,0.122473,0.0887742,0.089471,0.04 3208,0.0340246,0.0125966,0.0140762,-0.002168,-0.0368842,-0.0035728,-0.0138178,0.0232208,0.031378,-0.010559,0.0040572,0.0027118,-0.0003802,0.0016088,0.0043022,-0.0027952,-0.0057128,0.0090708,-0.0093264,0.0026346
Ukrainian,0.1309273,0.1240867,0.0683506,0.0575551, 0.0376867,0.0212936,0.0087651,0.0113072,-0.002891,-0.0210999,-0.0016327,-0.0076594,0.0153563,0.0216328,-0.0112354,-0.0010965,0.0046903,-0.0006985,0.0025989,0.0017002,-0.0044989,-0.003479,0.0067387,-0.0040578,0.0007217
Norwegian,0.1338234,0.1279567,0.0679357,0.0534334, 0.0386443,0.0210366,0.0041964,0.0062964,0.0057267, 0.0003906,-0.0037349,0.0036823,-0.007518,-0.011698,0.0210754,0.0093949,-0.0054203,0.0026061,0.0006823,0.0007503,0.005633,0 .0055643,0.0042784,0.0177304,0.0010947
Dai,0.0156507,-0.438709,-0.046763,-0.0609662,0.1201762,0.0622622,0.00047,-0.0073845,-0.0189698,-0.013121,0.0109208,0.0020232,-0.000446,-0.006193,0.0012895,0.0045742,0.0061282,-0.0009502,-0.0043368,-0.011662,0.0121972,0.0090268,0.0149438,0.002892,0. 007095
Yakut,0.0447324,-0.3753396,0.105971,-0.0228361,-0.1051273,-0.063085,0.0290002,0.0370139,0.0211478,0.0206291,0 .0275249,0.0094864,-0.0217043,0.063568,0.0354095,0.0218641,0.0073277,-0.015076,-0.0379986,-0.0301644,-0.0029074,0.0351297,0.0065321,-0.0009641,-0.0137831


Target: Me_scaled
Distance: 1.3880% / 0.01388027
53.2 Lebanese_Christian
37.8 Italian_Lombardy
3.4 Moroccan_North
2.6 Dai
2.2 Chechen
0.8 Ukrainian

Would choose other moderns, but there you go.

[Pine]

Well, same story with Bene Israel of India or Ethiopian Jews, they are almost full "old" converts.

Hold up - ya'll sleepin on Bene Israel.

Target: Mumbai_Jew
Distance: 1.3068% / 0.01306803 | R2P
58.0 Uttar_Pradesh
42.0 Iranian_Jew

[Leto]

Target: Me_scaled
Distance: 1.3880% / 0.01388027
53.2 Lebanese_Christian
37.8 Italian_Lombardy
3.4 Moroccan_North
2.6 Dai
2.2 Chechen
0.8 Ukrainian

Would choose other moderns, but there you go.
Well, I checked the ancients from that model as to which modern pops they're closest to. Both HRV and Estruscan are closest to Bergamo for example, the Germanic sample is the most similar to Norwegians, etc. The Mongoloid ones are my choice ("Northern and Southern Mongoloid").

[Hulu]

Target: Me_scaled
Distance: 1.3880% / 0.01388027
53.2 Lebanese_Christian
37.8 Italian_Lombardy
3.4 Moroccan_North
2.6 Dai
2.2 Chechen
0.8 Ukrainian

Would choose other moderns, but there you go.

Can you post your distances as well

[Pine]

Can you post your distances as well

Distance to: Me_scaled
0.05704323 Lebanese_Christian
0.07747637 Italian_Lombardy
0.11628756 Chechen
0.15481686 Norwegian
0.16037733 Ukrainian
0.16196924 Moroccan_North
0.20543516 Latvian
0.55226469 Yakut
0.59363693 Dai

[Pine]

Any source and percentages? Which kind of west euro, spanish or others?

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006644.g005

[Pine]

This should be fun.

(Broadly) Khazar ancestry among Jews:

Clades of likely Khazar origin:
https://yfull.com/tree/G-FGC1093/ (Almost entirely Litvak)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L330/ (Romaniote)


Clades of possible Khazar origin:
https://yfull.com/tree/G-Z44224/ (Also a Litvak skew)
https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP6547/

[Leto]

The Beta Israel don't get a good distance when I model them as a mix of ancient Ethiopian hunter-gatherers and Natufians

Target: Ethiopian_Jew
Distance: 6.8599% / 0.06859929
53.0 Levant_Natufian
47.0 ETH_4500BP

But apparently they are barely 50% SSA.

[Leto]

This should be fun.

(Broadly) Khazar ancestry among Jews:

Clades of likely Khazar origin:
https://yfull.com/tree/G-FGC1093/ (Almost entirely Litvak)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/Q-L330/ (Romaniote)


Clades of possible Khazar origin:
https://yfull.com/tree/G-Z44224/ (Also a Litvak skew)
https://yfull.com/tree/R-YP6547/
Is that where the traces of Mongoloid in Ashkenazim may come from? I have a couple AJ Gedmatch kits with nearly 3% East Eurasian.

[RogueState]

Can we say that this Ashkenazi Jewsih family is phenotypically the most "textbook"/"representative" one ? I chose haredim because they are in general endogamous, so full-blooded Ashkenazi (no goy or Sefarad admixture)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPjBaYKP434&t=98s

[Pine]

The Beta Israel don't get a good distance when I model them as a mix of ancient Ethiopian hunter-gatherers and Natufians

Target: Ethiopian_Jew
Distance: 6.8599% / 0.06859929
53.0 Levant_Natufian
47.0 ETH_4500BP

But apparently they are barely 50% SSA.

Now, try your model on modern Ethiopian goyim.

[Pine]

Is that where the traces of Mongoloid in Ashkenazim may come from? I have a couple AJ Gedmatch kits with nearly 3% East Eurasian.

Possible, but notice those clades. Only one I'm confident about in Ashkenazim is that G clade, which is really an Alan clade. Alans weren't Turkic, just ruled by Khazars. Only verifiable connection of the East Asian in Ashkenazim is Chinese. That's via M33c2. N9a3 is also likely East Asian, but it's harder to pin down. Silk road waifus are the main theory right now. By the way, my East Asian really high. Which Gedmatch calc are you using? It may also interest you to know that the Ashkenazim to show the highest East Asian admixture are Litvaks. Litvaks>Other Eastern Ashkenazim>Western Ashkenazim. The reference with the highest East Asian admix is Ash_Russia, but it's a meaningless sample, since its members would have recent ancestry from all over Eastern Europe, given that Jews only entered mainland Russia after the revolution. Prior to that, only exceptions were allowed to live there. That said, I expect Ash_Russia to be made mostly of Eastern Belarusian and Eastern Ukrainian Jews, as those had higher Holocaust survival rates and thus would've disproportionally made up post-WW2 Soviet Jewry.

[Leto]

Possible, but notice those clades. Only one I'm confident about in Ashkenazim is that G clade, which is really an Alan clade. Alans weren't Turkic, just ruled by Khazars. Only verifiable connection of the East Asian in Ashkenazim is Chinese. That's via M33c2. N9a3 is also likely East Asian, but it's harder to pin down. Silk road waifus are the main theory right now. By the way, my East Asian really high. Which Gedmatch calc are you using? It may also interest you to know that the Ashkenazim to show the highest East Asian admixture are Litvaks. Litvaks>Other Eastern Ashkenazim>Western Ashkenazim. The reference with the highest East Asian admix is Ash_Russia, but it's a meaningless sample, since its members would have recent ancestry from all over Eastern Europe, given that Jews only entered mainland Russia after the revolution. Prior to that, only exceptions were allowed to live there. That said, I expect Ash_Russia to be made mostly of Eastern Belarusian and Eastern Ukrainian Jews, as those had higher Holocaust survival rates and thus would've disproportionally made up post-WW2 Soviet Jewry.
I remember your results, something like 2 percent East Eurasian. I use primarily Dodecad K12b and Euro K13.
I never thought Jews could have traces of Chinese admixture. Turkic yes, more understandable but Chinese. Man, that sounds odd.

Weren't Jews in Ukraine mostly concentrated in Western Ukraine? I mean much of Eastern Ukraine was conquered by Russian Tsars only in the 17-18th centuries. I doubt there were many Jews there at that time as the region was very sparsely populated after the Mongol period. But there definitely were many of them in Western Ukraine.

[Leto]

Now, try your model on modern Ethiopian goyim.
I have. Practically the same thing.

[Pine]

I remember your results, something like 2 percent East Eurasian. I use primarily Dodecad K12b and Euro K13.
I never thought Jews could have traces of Chinese admixture. Turkic yes, more understandable but Chinese. Man, that sounds odd.

Weren't Jews in Ukraine mostly concentrated in Western Ukraine? I mean much of Eastern Ukraine was conquered by Russian Tsars only in the 17-18th centuries. I doubt there were many Jews there at that time as the region was very sparsely populated after the Mongol period. But there definitely were many of them in Western Ukraine.

Chinese ancestry surprised everyone: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep08377

There were plenty of Jews in Eastern Ukraine by the Holocaust. Just sampled a couple cities. 20% in Poltava. Kiev (13% in 1897, can't find 1930's). 17% in Dnepropetrovsk in 1939 etc. %s will be higher in 1897, obviously, as it preceded most of the immigration wave to America, mainland Russian (post-revolution), and some of the early WW2 evacuees. In 1898, about 70% of Chernobyl was Jewish.

Those calcs inflate East Eurasian and aren't that consistent. It's better to use Eurogenes K36, at least for ordering. It does an alright job at ordering people by East Eurasian admix, even if the absolute amounts aren't correct. The order is also more consistent with the order in G25. My East Eurasian is over 3% btw in K13, if you count Oceanian.

[Leto]

There were plenty of Jews in Eastern Ukraine by the Holocaust. Just sampled a couple cities. 20% in Poltava. Kiev (13% in 1897, can't find 1930's). 17% in Dnepropetrovsk in 1939 etc. %s will be higher in 1897, obviously, as it preceded most of the immigration wave to America, mainland Russian (post-revolution), and some of the early WW2 evacuees. In 1898, about 70% of Chernobyl was Jewish.
Yes, of course but I thought those were later migrants, after the partition of Poland.


Those calcs inflate East Eurasian and aren't that consistent. It's better to use Eurogenes K36, at least for ordering. It does an alright job at ordering people by East Eurasian admix, even if the absolute amounts aren't correct. The order is also more consistent with the order in G25. My East Eurasian is over 3% btw in K13, if you count Oceanian.
Well, Dod K12b definitely doesn't inflate it. K13 does to some extent and it has Oceanian and Amerindian which are both irrelevant for the Old World and thus very annoying. Those components are supposed to be only partially East Eurasian. I personally don't like K36 very much but perhaps it is useful sometimes.

[Leto]

Were the Jews of Austria-Hungary (Austria, Czechoslovakia and Hungary) Western Ashkenazim or Eastern? I think I once saw a Jew from Hungary with 40% East Med on Gedmatch.

[Pine]

Yes, of course but I thought those were later migrants, after the partition of Poland.

As in, you don't think Jews lived in those areas when they were controlled by the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth?

[Pine]

Were the Jews of Austria-Hungary (Austria, Czechoslovakia and Hungary) Western Ashkenazim or Eastern? I think I once saw a Jew from Hungary with 40% East Med on Gedmatch.

In the genetic or linguistic sense?

[Leto]

As in, you don't think Jews lived in those areas when they were controlled by the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth?
The Black Sea-Azov coast was recaptured from the Ottomans in the 18th century and just about every major city there was founded by Russia. Anyway, this wasn't the point. I was gonna say Jews in those areas ultimately must be Polish Jews, am I right?

In the genetic or linguistic sense?
Genetic, though I'm interested in what you say about the language too.

[Pine]

The Black Sea-Azov coast was recaptured from the Ottomans in the 18th century and just about every major city there was founded by Russia. Anyway, this wasn't the point. I was gonna say Jews in those areas ultimately must be Polish Jews, am I right?

Polish-Lithuanian Jews, yes. However, depends what you mean by that. Some of their ancestry precedes the bulk arrival of Jews into Poland. See this (Beider):

https://avotaynuonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Screen-Shot-2020-03-22-at-6.33.52-PM.png

East-Slavic there refers to the geography/language, when Beider mentions East Slavic Jews.


Genetic, though I'm interested in what you say about the language too.

Genetically? Based on the couple Czech Jew gedmatches I've seen - Western. Austrian Jews - we have a couple in G25 and they seem more Eastern, but for all we know, they're like Freud (recent Galician transplant). Hungarian Jews - never seen. We barely have any of these and I'm not completely confident that any of them will form a coherent group. I also wouldn't be shocked if Belarussian and Lithuanian Jews had more Medieval Czech Jewish ancestry than modern Czech Jews.

Linguistically:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/97/Yidish-dialects-ru.png/2880px-Yidish-dialects-ru.png