Jews 31% R1b?? [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

Flub

11-12-2021, 12:41 AM

Pine

11-12-2021, 01:10 AM

https://www.genebase.com/learning-center/ancestry-general/how-do-i-find-out-if-i-have-jewish-ancestry/
"Jews" Is actually very broad in my opinion. I think they'd be referring to the european ones? I hear Sephardim or Portuguese Jews are in the high 20s (28% ish).
In my observation, I've seen alot of jews with R from R-M269, R-Z159, and R-L2 but none really from the middle east like R-V88, or I just got lucky to see the minorities.

Edit: just saw one recently with I-CTS5966(very balkan, southern european)even though he was half but paternally was from a jew.

Some of the R1b is Middle Eastern and there is a Western Jewish R-V88 clade:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC21016/

There is also barely any data on the Y-DNA of Sephardim Jews. Take any such statistics on them with a lot of salt.

Also, R-M269 has plenty of Middle Eastern clades.

Middle Eastern R1b among Jews:

https://jewishdna.net/R1b-old.html
https://jewishdna.net/R1b-Z2103.html

European R1b among Jews:
https://jewishdna.net/R1b-Europe.html
https://jewishdna.net/R1b-DF27.html

And honestly, I think we may find some DF27 clades in the ancient middle east, but the best bet for any given DF27 is that it's European.

Pine

11-12-2021, 01:13 AM

The dude you saw is in this clade: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y23115/

It probably got picked up in the Greek diaspora, but there is a chance it entered Judea during the Hellenistic or Roman Era.

Donhueas

11-12-2021, 01:19 AM

Jews should have very varied paternal haplogroups, since it is more likely than a man-goy integrate into a Jewish community than a woman-goy.

Pine

11-12-2021, 01:21 AM

Jews should have very varied paternal haplogroups, since it is more likely than a man-goy integrate into a Jewish community than a woman-goy.

This is false.

Donhueas

11-12-2021, 01:23 AM

This is false.

I should have said I only suspected it. Why is it false?

Pine

11-12-2021, 01:26 AM

I should have said I only suspected it. Why is it a lie?

It's not a "lie". I have no reason to suspect you were dishonest. The reason it's false is because of 1)What we know about Jewish MTDNA vs Jewish YDNA 2)It's harder for men (circumcision) 3)I've seen more historical data on foreign women than foreign men. I suspect that in most migrating ethnic groups, most admixture is female mediated.

Donhueas

11-12-2021, 01:33 AM

It's not a "lie". I have no reason to suspect you were dishonest. The reason it's false is because of 1)What we know about Jewish MTDNA vs Jewish YDNA 2)It's harder for men (circumcision) 3)I've seen more historical data on foreign women than foreign men. I suspect that in most migrating ethnic groups, most admixture is female mediated.

Yes lmao, A lexical-non-native error

Flub

11-12-2021, 01:51 AM

Some of the R1b is Middle Eastern and there is a Western Jewish R-V88 clade:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC21016/

There is also barely any data on the Y-DNA of Sephardim Jews. Take any such statistics on them with a lot of salt.

Also, R-M269 has plenty of Middle Eastern clades.

Middle Eastern R1b among Jews:

https://jewishdna.net/R1b-old.html
https://jewishdna.net/R1b-Z2103.html

European R1b among Jews:
https://jewishdna.net/R1b-Europe.html
https://jewishdna.net/R1b-DF27.html

And honestly, I think we may find some DF27 clades in the ancient middle east, but the best bet for any given DF27 is that it's European.

It's pretty odd that only one identifies with Yiddish? I'd suspect that Ukrainian and Polish flags could also be Jews. But, more samples I guess.

Pine

11-12-2021, 03:24 AM

It's pretty odd that only one identifies with Yiddish? I'd suspect that Ukrainian and Polish flags could also be Jews. But, more samples I guess.

They're all descended from Jews. YFull only added languages lately and most don't care to add it.

Leto

11-12-2021, 12:17 PM

Also, R-M269 has plenty of Middle Eastern clades.

How could it have become Middle Eastern when it's a chiefly Western European haplogroup? Crusaders? Or some earlier movement of Europeans into the Levant?

Pine

11-12-2021, 10:02 PM

How could it have become Middle Eastern when it's a chiefly Western European haplogroup? Crusaders? Or some earlier movement of Europeans into the Levant?

Some went straight into the Middle East from the PIE homeland (which likely extended into the Northern Middle East anyhow).

mashail

11-12-2021, 11:20 PM

Some went straight into the Middle East from the PIE homeland (which likely extended into the Northern Middle East anyhow).
those are my cousins results do they belong to r1b?
https://imgur.com/o98cL6l
https://imgur.com/3eg6qLr
https://imgur.com/nd6tDc6
https://imgur.com/2loyly7

Flub

11-12-2021, 11:33 PM

those are my cousins results do they belong to r1b?
https://imgur.com/o98cL6l
https://imgur.com/3eg6qLr
https://imgur.com/nd6tDc6
https://imgur.com/2loyly7
Hard to tell because some of them are cut off, but one of them is R-M207 which is just basal R (R*).

mashail

11-12-2021, 11:37 PM

Hard to tell because some of them are cut off, but one of them is R-M207 which is just basal R (R*).
how about those
R-M124
R-M512
R-FGC17631
https://imgur.com/2loyly7

Pine

11-12-2021, 11:41 PM

those are my cousins results do they belong to r1b?
https://imgur.com/o98cL6l
https://imgur.com/3eg6qLr
https://imgur.com/nd6tDc6
https://imgur.com/2loyly7

Of the ones not cutoff, I didn't spot any, but google is your friend. Your R1a match in there is likely in R-Z93, which I think of as the analog of the Middle Eastern R1b.

Flub

11-12-2021, 11:42 PM

how about those
R-M124
R-M512
R-FGC17631
https://imgur.com/2loyly7
R-M124 is R2a aswell as R-FGC17631. But, R-M512 is R1a1a. Both I think are common in Indo-Iranian tribes.

mashail

11-12-2021, 11:50 PM

R-M124 is R2a aswell as R-FGC17631. But, R-M512 is R1a1a. Both I believe are common in Indo-Iranian tribes.
my cousins are north Iraqi from alsayed\hashimi tribe descendants from Abraham so genetic wise they are IE not Semites?

mashail

11-12-2021, 11:51 PM

R-M124 is R2a aswell as R-FGC17631. But, R-M512 is R1a1a. Both I think are common in Indo-Iranian tribes.

Is R2a also r1b?

Flub

11-12-2021, 11:58 PM

mashail

11-12-2021, 11:59 PM

my Turkish 3rd cousin I guess he's also r1b?
https://imgur.com/0KxpNZA
https://imgur.com/xyJNB7C

Flub

11-13-2021, 12:06 AM

my Turkish 3rd cousin I guess he's also r1b?
https://imgur.com/0KxpNZA
https://imgur.com/gUU3Tuq
He is indeed R1b even R-Z2103. Which is the middle eastern clade common in turkey and other places in Western Asia.
It is R-L23 which was found in Yamnaya. But, was detached from R-L51 more common Europe.

mashail

11-13-2021, 12:10 AM

@mashail they descended from a IE tribe, and assimilated. The trace got lost in history.
And... no R2a is not R1b. R2a I suspect is some detached Ancient North Eurasian marker that left the main line of R that came to both Europe and India.
wow! so my family r from IE origin not semitic !! well, my cousins results are from 0%-40% Arabian and 30-70% (Armenia\Anatolia)mine is the highest almost 50% Arabia so we r still not semitic?genetic is weird now the real question am I semitic or IE :confused:
so basically my family r Kurd Iraqi not Arab Iraqi ?

Pine

11-13-2021, 12:19 AM

my Turkish 3rd cousin I guess he's also r1b?
https://imgur.com/0KxpNZA
https://imgur.com/gUU3Tuq

Yeah, that's a Middle Eastern R1b. He's in here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY129034/ . Haven't checked too deeply, but looks like a Kurdish clade.

Pine

11-13-2021, 12:20 AM

wow! so my family r from IE origin not semitic !! well, my cousins results are from 0%-40% Arabian and 30-70% (Armenia\Anatolia)mine is the highest almost 50% Arabia so we r still not semitic?genetic is weird now the real question am I semitic or IE :confused:
so basically my family r Kurd Iraqi not Arab Iraqi ?

Semitic lands have already turned up ancient R1b and R1a samples and will continue doing so. Of course, they weren't there early enough to speak proto-Semitic.

Pine

11-13-2021, 12:23 AM

R-M124 is R2a aswell as R-FGC17631. But, R-M512 is R1a1a. Both I think are common in Indo-Iranian tribes.

I've always associated R2a with the Mesopotamian area, at least for the modern distribution.

Pine

11-13-2021, 12:26 AM

@mashail they descended from a IE tribe, and assimilated. The trace got lost in history.
And... no R2a is not R1b. R2a I suspect is some detached Ancient North Eurasian marker that left the main line of R that came to both Europe and India.

Not aware of any old European R2a. I expect every European R2a to be "recent": Hellenistic times and onwards. It's extremely rare in Europe, btw.

mashail

11-13-2021, 12:44 AM

Not aware of any old European R2a. I expect every European R2a to be "recent": Hellenistic times and onwards. It's extremely rare in Europe, btw.
according to wikipedia R2A
is 44% among Georgian kurds ,18%Armenian , 16% mountain jews in the caucasus, it also has a presence in Central Asia and India.
also according to handwiki its also among west asians jews:
R-M124 is also found in multiple Jewish populations: Iraqi Jews, Persian Jews, Mountain Jews, and Ashkenazi Jews.[3]
https://handwiki.org/wiki/Biology:Haplogroup_R2

mashail

11-13-2021, 01:32 AM

Not aware of any old European R2a. I expect every European R2a to be "recent": Hellenistic times and onwards. It's extremely rare in Europe, btw.
I have a 4th cousin he's also my fathers 3rd cousin he's results is 100% Ashkenazi jewish and I'm wondering what is his haplogroup?
do u think he's also R2a like most of my cousins?? what is Ashkenazi main haplogroup?
https://imgur.com/z1wvi1E
https://imgur.com/1HBDigV

Pine

11-13-2021, 01:35 AM

I have a 4th cousin he's also my fathers 3rd cousin he's results is 100% Ashkenazi jewish and I'm wondering what is his haplogroup?
do u think he's also R2a like most of my cousins?? what is Ashkenazi main haplogroup?
https://imgur.com/z1wvi1E

There are Ashkenazim in R2a, but it's not common. How much total DNA does your dad share with him? How big is the largest segment?

mashail

11-13-2021, 01:36 AM

There are Ashkenazim in R2a, but it's not common. How much total DNA does your dad share with him? How big is the largest segment?
https://imgur.com/1HBDigV
check his results

mashail

11-13-2021, 01:37 AM

There are Ashkenazim in R2a, but it's not common. How much total DNA does your dad share with him? How big is the largest segment?
I will chick and ill let u know

Pine

11-13-2021, 01:41 AM

https://imgur.com/1HBDigV
check his results

I see that he's Ashkenazi. Surprisingly, a Yekke even.

There are 2 known Ashkenazi clades in R2a:

https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y127102/

and the more common one:

https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC13211/

There are no known Yekkes in the 2nd one and I don't think any exist in the first one, but I can check. Your connection doesn't have to be via R2a. Also, if either uploaded to FTDNA, it could be a false match, but we'd need more info.

mashail

11-13-2021, 01:44 AM

There are Ashkenazim in R2a, but it's not common. How much total DNA does your dad share with him? How big is the largest segment?
me and him
Shared DNA
14 cM
Longest Block
7 cM
------
dad and him
Shared DNA
21 cM
Longest Block
14 cM

mashail

11-13-2021, 01:46 AM

I see that he's Ashkenazi. Surprisingly, a Yekke even.

There are 2 known Ashkenazi clades in R2a:

https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y127102/

and the more common one:

https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC13211/

There are no known Yekkes in the 2nd one and I don't think any exist in the first one, but I can check. Your connection doesn't have to be via R2a. Also, if either uploaded to FTDNA, it could be a false match, but we'd need more info.
who knows maybe he's a false match I also had him in 2 version of ftdna and in the 3rd which is the new one.

mashail

11-13-2021, 01:57 AM

I see that he's Ashkenazi. Surprisingly, a Yekke even.

There are 2 known Ashkenazi clades in R2a:

https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y127102/

and the more common one:

https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC13211/

There are no known Yekkes in the 2nd one and I don't think any exist in the first one, but I can check. Your connection doesn't have to be via R2a. Also, if either uploaded to FTDNA, it could be a false match, but we'd need more info.
here u can see he's name with my 4th cousins
https://imgur.com/gTZ5sre
but honestly idk he might be a false match

Pine

11-13-2021, 02:02 AM

here u can see he's name with my 4th cousins
https://imgur.com/gTZ5sre
but honestly idk he might be a false match

If he matches, 2 of your relatives, this is unlikely to be a false match from how I understand these things. What's your ancestry?

Dirdepo

11-13-2021, 02:04 AM

If he matches, 2 of your relatives, this is unlikely to be a false match from how I understand these things. What's your ancestry?

Man you sound like that guy from gedmatch.com forum that was baiting all these people to believe fake theories lmao

mashail

11-13-2021, 02:09 AM

If he matches, 2 of your relatives, this is unlikely to be a false match from how I understand these things. What's your ancestry?
both my parents are north Iraqi my mother is from the Syrian borders she's Iraqi Bedouin and also half Egyptian, my dad his both parents are north Iraqi my grandfather which is my dads side claimed that they are originally semitic descendants from Abraham and prophet Ali. I don't know more than that tbh!

mashail

11-13-2021, 02:25 AM

If he matches, 2 of your relatives, this is unlikely to be a false match from how I understand these things. What's your ancestry?

I have a theory maybe we are actually jews that converted to islam ?a lot of Iraqi jews got converted to islam !! that explains why all my first & second& 3rd cousins are all under haplogroup R2a!?
since R2a in West Asia associated with Persian jews\Iraqi jews\mountain jews?

Pine

11-13-2021, 02:33 AM

I have a theory maybe we are actually jews that converted to islam ?a lot of Iraqi jews got converted to islam !! that explains why all my first & second& 3rd cousins are all under haplogroup R2a!?
since R2a in West Asia associated with Persian jews\Iraqi jews\mountain jews?

You may have Jewish ancestry, but it's unlikely to have anything to do with R2a. Jews with R2a either picked it up in the Babylonian diaspora or during the Persian control of Israel. I'll be surprised to see R2a in Israel prior to the Babylonian Exile. It's native to the Eastern Middle East. Could you fall into a Jewish subclade of R2a? Possible, but I doubt it. Your cousin matching is the much stronger reason to suspect any Jewish ancestry. Do you have any other Jewish matches?

Pine

11-13-2021, 02:34 AM

Man you sound like that guy from gedmatch.com forum that was baiting all these people to believe fake theories lmao

I just watch a lot of foot porn.

Dirdepo

11-13-2021, 02:36 AM

I just watch a lot of foot porn.

Interesting, my new ritual before chat with Jews is watch episode South Park lol

mashail

11-13-2021, 02:43 AM

You may have Jewish ancestry, but it's unlikely to have anything to do with R2a. Jews with R2a either picked it up in the Babylonian diaspora or during the Persian control of Israel. I'll be surprised to see R2a in Israel prior to the Babylonian Exile. It's native to the Eastern Middle East. Could you fall into a Jewish subclade of R2a? Possible, but I doubt it. Your cousin matching is the much stronger reason to suspect any Jewish ancestry. Do you have any other Jewish matches?
Yeah, there was a Mizrahi cousin he was also a 4th cousin he probably made his information private that's why I couldn't find him anymore .

Dr_Maul

11-13-2021, 02:44 AM

Flub

11-13-2021, 06:57 PM

R1b M269 too basal. Its branch R1b Z2103 is more or less Middle Eastern (and balkan for some reason) has been in the region since LBA, either Indo Iranian or Hurrian or both. The chance of R1b Z159 or L2 coming from MENA is microscopic, but not 0 (seems its been found in a handful of Romans could also be sea people)
Forget R-L2, R-Z159 is the weird one, it is from R U106 (which I assume is mainly Germanic, so how is it possible for it to be in the middle east?). On YFull there is a clade before the >jewish< specific clades (mainly FGC8564, and A689) where there is mainly Portuguese flags (that one being Y5051) which could theorize being Visigoth lineages from the Jews that have inhabited Iberia.

Havana

11-13-2021, 07:02 PM

Some of the R1b is Middle Eastern and there is a Western Jewish R-V88 clade:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-FGC21016/

There is also barely any data on the Y-DNA of Sephardim Jews. Take any such statistics on them with a lot of salt.

Also, R-M269 has plenty of Middle Eastern clades.

Middle Eastern R1b among Jews:

https://jewishdna.net/R1b-old.html
https://jewishdna.net/R1b-Z2103.html

European R1b among Jews:
https://jewishdna.net/R1b-Europe.html
https://jewishdna.net/R1b-DF27.html

And honestly, I think we may find some DF27 clades in the ancient middle east, but the best bet for any given DF27 is that it's European. r1b is not middle eastern. You only say that because you want to make the jews look more middle eastern even though they are mostly European lineages. And they are mostly a religious group of people.

Pine

11-13-2021, 07:27 PM

r1b is not middle eastern. You only say that because you want to make the jews look more middle eastern even though they are mostly European lineages. And they are mostly a religious group of people.

I also want to hide the European background of Assyrians, Arabs, Sub-Saharan Africans, Armenians and don't forget - ancient Middle Eastern samples.

Dr_Maul

11-14-2021, 12:39 AM

Forget R-L2, R-Z159 is the weird one, it is from R U106 (which I assume is mainly Germanic, so how is it possible for it to be in the middle east?). On YFull there is a clade before the >jewish< specific clades (mainly FGC8564, and A689) where there is mainly Portuguese flags (that one being Y5051) which could theorize being Visigoth lineages from the Jews that have inhabited Iberia.

Well these 2 branches of Z2103 seem Jewish and the upstream is more or less NW Asian (NW Asian lineages being fairly typical in the Levant since Iron age)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY13830/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y16852/

Flub

11-14-2021, 03:04 AM

Well these 2 branches of Z2103 seem Jewish and the upstream is more or less NW Asian (NW Asian lineages being fairly typical in the Levant since Iron age)
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-BY13830/
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y16852/
Interesting, do you wager that the lineages(FGC8564, A689) above to have came later or was there to begin with? R L2 I could see, but R Z159 I don't see being apart of it.

Pine

11-14-2021, 03:12 AM

Dr_Maul

11-14-2021, 02:50 PM

Interesting, do you wager that the lineages(FGC8564, A689) above to have came later or was there to begin with? R L2 I could see, but R Z159 I don't see being apart of it.

I would find it extremely unlikely to think that lineage being under Germanic U106 was anywhere in the Middle East prior to the middle ages

Dr_Maul

11-14-2021, 03:41 PM

Those look more like Bronze Age entries.

Yes most likely they seem correlating with Mitanni, Hittites, possibly Kassites/Gutians (if they were IE or not, not confirmed) but I think most of Levant R1 (R1a definitely) is more Iron age. But these are more of an LBA situation

Pine

11-14-2021, 08:15 PM

Interesting, do you wager that the lineages(FGC8564, A689) above to have came later or was there to begin with? R L2 I could see, but R Z159 I don't see being apart of it.

No one states that R-FGC8564 is from the Middle East. It's called the Ivanhoe branch for that reason. R-A689 is just a subbranch of it. The only current debate is where the introgression happened.

Flub

11-14-2021, 08:39 PM

No one states that R-FGC8564 is from the Middle East. It's called the Ivanhoe branch for that reason. R-A689 is just a subbranch of it. The only current debate is where the introgression happened.
Like I've stated earlier, the branch stems from it's ancestor https://www.yfull.com/R-Y5051/, that it has clades that are in Southern Europe like this one here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-A534 that is reperesented with Southern European flags. Then the introgression would have to have been in Southern Europe, so in Europe. It isn't ancestrally middle eastern one could see that it is not if you take a look at it's ancestors that occupy Europe. There could be possibilities that it could be roman related or has entered by mass conversions.

Pine

11-14-2021, 08:51 PM

Like I've stated earlier, the branch stems from it's ancestor https://www.yfull.com/R-Y5051/, that it has clades that are in southern europe like A534 that are reperesented with southern european flags. Then the introgression would have to have been in Southern Europe, so in Europe. It isn't ancestrally middle eastern one could see that it is not if you take a look at it's ancestors that occupy Europe. There could be possibilities that it could be roman related or has entered by mass conversions.

The debate isn't about Europe vs non-Europe. It's all within Europe. Mass conversion doesn't make sense.

Flub

11-24-2021, 01:50 AM

@mishail

R2a could be the source of ANE ancestry in Iran_Neolithic
and Caucasian Hunter-Gatherers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganj_Dareh

So you're paternal ancestors could've not came there recently.

That could be the reason why it is so abundant in the middle east. @Pine

R2a was not found in Trialietian Mesolithic samples but I can theorize that It was a source of that ancestry for them too.
Besides R1 mtdna were found in ANE samples(Afontova Gora) and the Caucasus have some R1 mtdna lingering about.
Mtdna X could also be an indicator for the broader south west asia.

chinshen

11-24-2021, 02:14 AM

r1b is not middle eastern. You only say that because you want to make the jews look more middle eastern even though they are mostly European lineages. And they are mostly a religious group of people.

@Pine is right, R1b-L23 is middle eastern. I am Assyrian with R1b-L23, R1b is over 30% in Assyrians.

Flub

12-03-2021, 02:12 AM

The debate isn't about Europe vs non-Europe. It's all within Europe. Mass conversion doesn't make sense.
Recently came across one that is R-L4, can you explain that?

E1b1b

12-03-2021, 02:44 AM

Jews are the real steppe Khazar warriors

Pine

12-04-2021, 04:22 PM

Recently came across one that is R-L4, can you explain that?

Likely European introgression. I'm familiar with the clade. It's here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L4/ . Probably comes from an Iberian convert.

Flub

12-05-2021, 06:56 AM

Likely European introgression. I'm familiar with the clade. It's here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L4/ . Probably comes from an Iberian convert.

An Iberian founding lineage? I don't know but if you go back 4000 years ago, I see a theme here.

It seems like there is a Portuguese founding lineage (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S1523*/) same as R-Y5051, has there been a history of Jewish emergence in Portugal? In connection to Ashkenazim, that is.

Pine

12-05-2021, 07:00 PM

An Iberian founding lineage? I don't know but if you go back 4000 years ago, I see a theme here.

It seems like there is a Portuguese founding lineage (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S1523*/) same as R-Y5051, has there been a history of Jewish emergence in Portugal? In connection to Ashkenazim, that is.

Basal=/= founding.

Jews lived in Iberia prior to the emergence of Ashkenazim. Some migrated northward and would've been among the first Ashkenazim. There are numerous such lineages.

Flub

12-11-2021, 05:20 PM

Basal=/= founding.

Jews lived in Iberia prior to the emergence of Ashkenazim. Some migrated northward and would've been among the first Ashkenazim. There are numerous such lineages.

I'd like to mention that this one is also similar (https://yfull.com/tree/J-FGC30324/) European introgression?

Flub

12-11-2021, 05:21 PM

double**

Pine

12-16-2021, 01:32 AM

I'd like to mention that this one is also similar (https://yfull.com/tree/J-FGC30324/) European introgression?

No. They're not close to similar.

Flub

12-21-2021, 04:29 AM

No. They're not close to similar.

Can you tell if it is European intrusion or not?

Pine

12-22-2021, 09:35 PM

Can you tell if it is European intrusion or not?

Extremely unlikely to be European.

gixajo

12-22-2021, 09:43 PM

What proportion of the Ydna that have individuals of the Jewish religion do you estimate would not originate from originally Jewish individuals?

Flub

12-23-2021, 02:01 AM

@gixajo

there is some scarcity is some studies showing where the lineages really originate. There is one I really know (jewishdna, I believe it's called) it labels some lineages with Europe, Magreb etc. 38 out of the 208 R1bs are labled with Europe.

Longbowman

12-23-2021, 02:08 AM

Your source is bizarre, most data suggests total R for Ashkenazim is about 18-20%, mostly R1a. I have never seen R1b reported so highly in any subgroup, not even Dutch Ashkenazim (which do score higher than other Jews wrt R1b).

Flub

12-23-2021, 02:25 AM

Mark76

01-10-2022, 12:51 PM

Longbowman

01-10-2022, 06:56 PM

I read somewhere that the percentage of R1b amongst Dutch Jews (who used to be Spanish and Portuguese Jews) might have been as high as 50%. I have no idea how many native Iberians (where R1b is a major clade) would have to have had to convert to Judaism to produce that percentage, but you'd think at least one Jewish historian would have mentioned it.

Most Dutch Jews are not S&P today. Over 90% are Ashkenazim. R1b is like 25% amongst them. There was some conversion of Iberians to Judaism of course, but not enough to make it 50%. Even the Belmonte Jews don't get 50%.

Mark76

01-10-2022, 11:16 PM

Tongio

01-10-2022, 11:40 PM

Yeah, but the original Dutch Jews were very much Sephardic refugees. as were the original (second wave) English Jews, post ECW. There wasn't much back-migration of Eastern European Ashkenazi into Western Europe until around the late 18th century.

Sephardic jews do have significant R1b(around 25% or 1/4 of portuguese Jews) from assimilated goyim iberians
https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/123134/fgene-06-00012-r2/image_m/fgene-06-00012-g002.jpg

Pine

01-11-2022, 05:56 AM

Sephardic jews do have significant R1b(around 25% or 1/4 of portuguese Jews) from assimilated goyim iberians
https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/123134/fgene-06-00012-r2/image_m/fgene-06-00012-g002.jpg

Those aren't modern Sephardic populations and not all R1b among Jews is European. About half the R1b in Ashkenazi Jews is Middle Eastern.

Tongio

01-11-2022, 09:50 AM

Those aren't modern Sephardic populations and not all R1b among Jews is European. About half the R1b in Ashkenazi Jews is Middle Eastern.

Quote from the study:
"Jewish samples (Belmonte and Bragança) are from the works of Adams et al. (2008) and Nogueiro et al. (2010), respectively, and the Portuguese host population from Beleza et al. (2006).

A completely different picture of the Portuguese male Jewish lineages was, however, brought to light when the descendants of the crypto-Jews from Bragança district were analyzed (Nogueiro et al., 2010). In this study, 57 unrelated self-designated Jewish males from the Northeast Portugal (Bragança, Argozelo, Carção, Mogadouro, and Vilarinho dos Galegos) were selected, using a combination of geographic, religious ethno-historical and affiliation criteria."
2008 a 2010 , Sounds pretty modern to me.

Tongio

01-11-2022, 09:55 AM

Those aren't modern Sephardic populations and not all R1b among Jews is European. About half the R1b in Ashkenazi Jews is Middle Eastern.

About the origin of R1b among sephardic the study saus It is from local goyims:
"The high frequency of haplogroup R1b1a-M269 found in both groups of Portuguese Jews could result from admixture with the Portuguese/Iberian population, and/or from introgression before their entry into the Iberian Peninsula. Pairwise RST genetic distances between R1b1a-M269 Jewish haplotypes from Bragança district and those from Portugal (Beleza et al., 2006) and Turkey (Cinnioǧlu et al., 2004), were analyzed by Nogueiro et al. (2010) to verify the contributions of Western Europe versus Near East to the frequency of the Portuguese Jewish R1b1a-M269. A lower genetic distance between the Portuguese Jewish and non-Jewish R1b1a-M269 haplotypes than between these two samples and the one from Turkey was detected. Thus, an important Western European R1b1a-M269 introgression into the Portuguese Sephardic Jews, most probably after their arrival in Iberia, is the most plausible scenario (Nogueiro et al., 2010)."
I dont understand is there a problem with this ?

Tongio

01-11-2022, 09:56 AM

Double

Longbowman

01-11-2022, 12:44 PM

Sephardic jews do have significant R1b(around 25% or 1/4 of portuguese Jews) from assimilated goyim iberians
https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/123134/fgene-06-00012-r2/image_m/fgene-06-00012-g002.jpg

Belmonte Jews are not genetically similar to other Sephardim. They have extremely high levels of Iberian admixture. This is true of most converso families/populations. They are very unique and there are only 250-400 of them.

I myself am [distantly] Belmonte Jewish, btw.

Yeah, but the original Dutch Jews were very much Sephardic refugees. as were the original (second wave) English Jews, post ECW. There wasn't much back-migration of Eastern European Ashkenazi into Western Europe until around the late 18th century.

But this is almost completely irrelevant to modern Dutch Jewish genetics, which is the subject at hand. Most Dutch Ashkenazim are not from Eastern Europe, but from Germany. There are plenty of indigenous Ashkenazi communities in Western Europe.

Petalpusher

01-11-2022, 01:26 PM

Longbowman

01-11-2022, 02:05 PM

Is the R1a mostly from Poles or somewhere else?

Whilst that is intuitive and I'm sure it's a contributing factor, Pines can go on for a while about how it's apparently probably MENA.

Petalpusher

01-11-2022, 03:53 PM

Whilst that is intuitive and I'm sure it's a contributing factor, Pines can go on for a while about how it's apparently probably MENA.

I don't see where R1a is or was any higher than anecdotical in MENA. Unless we are talking about a very old basal subclade or some enormous founder effect.

Pine

01-11-2022, 04:45 PM

Whilst that is intuitive and I'm sure it's a contributing factor, Pines can go on for a while about how it's apparently probably MENA.

It's almost all one clade. Impossible to be Polish. It's ultimately Iranic and inside R-CTS6.

This is the broader clade: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS6/
This is the Ashkenazi clade inside of it: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2619/

It has been discussed to death. Only question is when and where this Iranic person became Jewish.

SUPREEEEEME

01-11-2022, 04:47 PM

Is the R1a mostly from Poles or somewhere else?

Around 93% of Ashkenazi R1a (keeping in mind R1a is 8.9% of Ashkenazim) falls under R-Y2619, which in turn falls under R-CTS6 - which is a MENA clade. The closest relations to this Levite branch are in Western Iran, Northern Iraq, and Eastern Anatolia. So we can assume the line came from there at some point. So it's definitely MENA, and certainly not Eastern European.

Peterski

01-11-2022, 04:54 PM

I don't see where R1a is or was any higher than anecdotical in MENA.

Iranic-speaking peoples have R1a-Z93. Turkic too.

Longbowman

01-11-2022, 06:19 PM

It's almost all one clade. Impossible to be Polish. It's ultimately Iranic and inside R-CTS6.

This is the broader clade: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-CTS6/
This is the Ashkenazi clade inside of it: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2619/

It has been discussed to death. Only question is when and where this Iranic person became Jewish.

Yeah. Whereas R1b seems mostly Euro except R1b-V88.

Tongio

01-11-2022, 06:24 PM

Yeah. Whereas R1b seems mostly Euro except R1b-V88.

Yeah that is why here in Brazil if you are of colonial portugueses origin and your paternal ancestor was a converso he wont nescessarily be J, significant chance of being R1b. I dont know if Belmonte jews were that atypical for portuguese jews , those were heavily integrated compared to other parts of europe and mixing happened in both directions in most parts of Portugal not just Belmonte probably.

Longbowman

01-11-2022, 06:33 PM

Yeah that is why here in Brazil if you are of colonial portugueses origin and your paternal ancestor was a converso he wont nescessarily be J, significant chance of being R1b. I dont know if Belmonte jews were that atypical for portuguese jews , those were heavily integrated compared to other parts of europe and mixing happened in both directions in most parts of Portugal not just Belmonte probably.

Well, they were atypical, we have DNA results from other Sephardic communities to demonstrate it.

Tongio

01-11-2022, 07:52 PM

Well, they were atypical, we have DNA results from other Sephardic communities to demonstrate it.

I would be interested in seeing DNA breakdown of portuguese jews from Portugal only (pre 1515 mainly) do you have these? Those are actually the ones that I doubt would be different from sephardic from the study and the ones that had comunities in the Netherlands.Not sephardic jews from greece or North Africa.
Edit : Bragança Jews from the study have even more R1b than Belmonte ones.Are they atypical too?

Longbowman

01-11-2022, 08:25 PM

I would be interested in seeing DNA breakdown of portuguese jews from Portugal only (pre 1515 mainly) do you have these? Those are actually the ones that I doubt would be different from sephardic from the study and the ones that had comunities in the Netherlands.Not sephardic jews from greece or North Africa.
Edit : Bragança Jews from the study have even more R1b than Belmonte ones.Are they atypical too?

Yes, both groups are highly atypical. Results from pre-1515 do not exist.

Tongio

01-11-2022, 10:11 PM

Yes, both groups are highly atypical. Results from pre-1515 do not exist.

I mean It would be pretty cool to have some pre inquisition, but no need to be exclusively them , till now I have seen nothing indicating these 2 groups y DNA distribution are atypical for portuguese jews.

Pine

01-11-2022, 10:35 PM

Yeah. Whereas R1b seems mostly Euro except R1b-V88.

R1b seems to be half and half.

Petalpusher

01-12-2022, 06:31 AM

Around 93% of Ashkenazi R1a (keeping in mind R1a is 8.9% of Ashkenazim) falls under R-Y2619, which in turn falls under R-CTS6 - which is a MENA clade. The closest relations to this Levite branch are in Western Iran, Northern Iraq, and Eastern Anatolia. So we can assume the line came from there at some point. So it's definitely MENA, and certainly not Eastern European.

Ok but Armenia would make more sense. I guess that depends how far back you want to trace that R1a.

Theskyisblue2

04-03-2022, 10:15 PM

What is the maternal original group of Jewish women? and what of Jewish men? the original haplogroups?

Longbowman

04-03-2022, 10:19 PM

What is the maternal original group of Jewish women? and what of Jewish men? the original haplogroups?

It would be difficult if not impossible to get a comprehensive list, partially because contrary to what the Bible says the ethnogenesis of the Israelites would have taken place over the course of centuries and partially because we'll never get a 'complete' set of readable DNA from enough exemplars to say. That said there have been a couple of studies done, one I recall included 5-6 MTDNA samples from 1st century Judea, and we can infer from incomplete data, also - likely a lot of J1, J2, E3b and G2 with some R1 for YDNA, and probably U including U8b (K), T, J, I for MTDNA.