Greeks revolting again: German flag burned on the streets as they react angrily to Eurozone Deal

[Turkophagos]

The Greeks are revolting again: German flag burned on the streets as they react angrily to historic Eurozone deal

First came the cartoons of Chancellor Merkel dressed up in a Nazi uniform.

Now angry Greeks are venting their fury over austerity measures being introduced as a result of their country's debt crisis by burning the German flag.

Thousands of anti-austerity protesters flocked into Thessaloniki, Greece's second largest city forcing the cancellation of an annual military parade commemorating the nation's entry into the Second World War.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/28/article-0-0E926F5300000578-884_634x419.jpg

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The demonstrators heckled President Karolos Papoulias and other attending officials, calling him a traitor, and some anarchists spat at retired military officers. In several other Greek cities, officials were heckled but most of the commemorative parades went ahead as scheduled. The protests came two days after Europe's leaders announced a strengthened financial rescue plan that includes bigger write-downs of Greek debt and new injections of capital into weakened European banks.

Greeks are furious at the deal, even though it means the banks will write off 50 per cent of the country’s debt and Socialist prime minister George Papandreou said Greece had ‘avoided a mortal national danger’. In Thessaloniki, the protesters blocked the parade route, forcing police to intervene and protect the officials' stand until it was evacuated. After waiting in the parade stand for about 30 minutes, Mr Papoulias left, but not before launching a broadside against the protesters.

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'When I was 15, I fought against Nazism and the German occupiers. Who are they calling me a traitor? Shame on them,' he told reporters.

Mr Papoulias, 82, joined the Greek resistance in 1944, during the last months of the three-year German occupation. The protesters included leftists, anarchists, neo-Nazis, people fed up with the government's austerity policies, and fans of the local soccer club Iraklis, which was pushed out of the top division because of financial irregularities. Asked if the protesters were justified, given the government's biting austerity measures and Greece's deep recession, Papoulias said the demonstrators represented 'a small minority'.

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'The great mass of the people accept all these austerity measures that hit the weakest because they hope for a better day, when we will overcome the crisis and clean our house,' Papoulias said. A student parade through Athens commemorating the day ended without a major incident. But some protesters carried banners with slogans such as 'No to the selling out of the country,' and 'Merkel equals Hitler,' referring to German Chancellor Angela Merkel, who played a big role in negotiating the new euro-nation rescue plan. The demonstrators were condemned by the government and the conservative opposition, but justified by some leftist parties.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2054779/The-Greeks-revolting-German-flag-burned-streets-react-angrily-historic-Eurozone-deal.html

[Seeker]

Chaos, chaos and drama <3

[Contra Mundum]

How dare those Germans not fund Greek pensions and pay their debt. The Greeks are acting like Jews, but lack the power to intimidate the Germans into forking over the money.

[Turkophagos]

How dare those Germans not fund Greek pensions and pay their debt. The Greeks are acting like Jews, but lack the power to intimidate the Germans into forking over the money.

How about not "saving" Greeks?

These people are protesting because they don't want to be "saved"...

[Damião de Góis]

I'm not following this closely but wasn't it agreed to forgive half of Greece's debt?

[Incal]

It seems Greeks never heard the story about the 7 lean cows and the 7 fat cows.

[W. R.]

What do the protesters want?

[The Lawspeaker]

How dare those Germans not fund Greek pensions and pay their debt. The Greeks are acting like Jews, but lack the power to intimidate the Germans into forking over the money.
The Greeks won't see a bloody penny of that money but they will be forced to sell of whatever assets they have - past,present or future. Still: I don't think that we Dutch should bail out the fraudulent banks behind it all.

[Saturni]

How dare those Germans not fund Greek pensions and pay their debt. The Greeks are acting like Jews, but lack the power to intimidate the Germans into forking over the money.

I heard some Greeks got killed by some Germans during WWII. Doesn't that entitle every Greek to a free economic ride from the Germans 'til the end of time?

[Seeker]

Few words.

Haircut -50% =>

Fitch Ratings considered this action as an economy default =>

Voilaaaa, lets do some CDS business now.

All of you who believes that this haircut (debt haircut) is to help Greece, you are just naive and deal with it, i am sorry. If you know nothing about global economy structure and rules and how it works, please refrain posting your own opinions / crap / garbage thoughts.

Anyway, i think theres a master plan out there, and that actually they dont wonna a$$ rape Greece the way it seems.

Have you ever heard of the united states of europe ? Neither have i.

Lets see.

Oh, and Greeks are worst than jews, trust me. :)

[jerney]

That's pretty stupid.

[Contra Mundum]

What do the protesters want?

To destroy shit and piss and moan.

[The Lawspeaker]

To destroy shit and piss and moan.
If they would have been even half-way serious then there would have been a revolution by now.. so yes.

[Contra Mundum]

If they would have been even half-way serious then there would have been a revolution by now.. so yes.



Reminds me of the Wall Street protests, as if the rich care if people are sleeping in city parks and pissing on the sidewalk. It's only an inconvenience to average people who own the shops, and work in the city, who have to deal with the litter and congestion. The cops have to deal with it too, but the rich aren't affected by these protests at all. They're still golfing and flying around the world on their private jets.

[Lábaru]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/28/article-0-0E926F5300000578-884_634x419.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/28/article-0-0E9238BB00000578-692_634x379.jpg

Damn Turks, they are burning the Europe flag in Greece :ohwell:

[The Ripper]

How dare those Germans not fund Greek pensions and pay their debt. The Greeks are acting like Jews, but lack the power to intimidate the Germans into forking over the money.

Oh look, it's a dumbass!

[Siberyak]

It's gonna be an interesting next few months in Greece.

[Siberyak]

I do not trust Prime Minister George papandreaou at all. It's a well know fact that he was "educated" in washington DC.

[Libertas]

It's gonna be an interesting next few months in Greece.

It's going to be interesting for all of Europe.:eek:

[Libertas]

I do not trust Prime Minister George papandreaou at all. It's a well know fact that he was "educated" in washington DC.

He looks slimey.:mad:

[Loki]

How dare those Germans not fund Greek pensions and pay their debt. The Greeks are acting like Jews, but lack the power to intimidate the Germans into forking over the money.

I don't think you understand the detail behind why Germany and France want a bailout/s for Greece always so desperately - and then the Greek taxpayer having to foot the bill for it. You know why? Because some large German and French companies have massive financial exposures in Greece, and should Greece default, these companies would roll over.

[Sagitta Hungarica]

I don't agree with the double standards that are used in the EU. Why can they erase half of Greece's debt, but don't do the same with Hungary's debt?

[Loki]

What do the protesters want?

They don't want to be 'bailed out' by the Germans/EU, as Chimo Bayo pointed out here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=573426&postcount=4). The EU wants to force Greece to accept loans in order to help banks/the government (which is struggling already precisely because it was forced to accept previous loans). But why should ordinary people pay for big companies' or governments' problems?

This is the ugly side of crude capitalism. Communism is way more humane.

[Siberyak]

There are many people who don't blame the Germans or the banks. They just complain about the Greek mentality of living beyond there means

[The Lawspeaker]

There are many people who don't blame the Germans or the banks. They just complain about the Greek mentality of living beyond there means
Maybe the Greek "approach" can be explained as this: government is corrupt, elite is corrupt, banks are corrupt and it's not going to change so why the bloody hell should we be honest since we need money and bread on the table and we're not going to get it the honest way because we if we do that we would't keep a penny because of all the taxes ?

A cynical attitude (in this case more then justified) can become a way of life and can easily lead to a ruined society

[Saturni]

This is the ugly side of crude capitalism. Communism is way more humane.

LMFAO!

[The Lawspeaker]

LMFAO!
He's being cynical. Even communism would be more humane then this crony capitalism.

But personally I believe in the Third Way.

[Leliana]

People who burn the flags of nations are the lowest of the lowest and show primitive character traits, and Greeks who burn the flag of my country after all the help my country is giving to them with our money and at our risk are not worth of any annotation. If the loans for Greece should become due it's German tax-payer money which is lost!

They should kiss the flag because their country has 50% less debts than last week!:mad: I'd like to see such rescue on a personal level where people who are overindebted based on chronical statewide corruption and black labour receive a hair cut! I would buy a house and a nice car for myself and then I'd go to the next bank to reduce my debts up to 50%.

It's hard to not dislike Greeks as a German these days. :(

[Siberyak]

And this leads to a divided Europe.

[Absinthe]

Maybe the Greek "approach" can be explained as this: government is corrupt, elite is corrupt, banks are corrupt and it's not going to change so why the bloody hell should we be honest since we need money and bread on the table and we're not going to get it the honest way because we if we do that we would't keep a penny because of all the taxes ?

A cynical attitude (in this case more then justified) can become a way of life and can easily lead to a ruined society
That is exactly it, you are right on track :thumbs

I disagree with this approach, myself, though, but at least I can justify it to some extent.

[Siberyak]

That is exactly it, you are right on track :thumbs

I disagree with this approach, myself, though, but at least I can justify it to some extent.

By the way, How is the current mood in Athens?

[Monolith]

How about not "saving" Greeks?

These people are protesting because they don't want to be "saved"...
Could you describe the arrangement the protesters are rejecting?

[Absinthe]

People who burn the flags of nations are the lowest of the lowest and show primitive character traits,

I wholeheartedly agree.

But how about this?

http://roarmag.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/German-press-Greece.jpg
http://www.globalpost.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/gp3_small_article/der-spiegel-euro.jpg

etc... etc...

With SO many insults coming from the German press, what did you expect?


and Greeks who burn the flag of my country after all the help my country is giving to them with our money and at our risk are not worth of any annotation. If the loans for Greece should become due it's German tax-payer money which is lost!

Greek people - taxpayers - do NOT want the help from your country. The majority of the Greeks did NOT want to be in the EU and the Eurozone in the first place... We were MUCH better off before that and the minute we entered the Euro, we were destroyed.

It is the politicians and the bankers who do the dealings with the respective people of your country, and the same disappointment that you feel when it is decided for you that your tax money will go to the aid of Greece, is the same disappointment that the average Greek feels when they feel they are being indebted to the Germans against their will, and on top of that they are being constantly mocked and frowned upon.


They should kiss the flag because their country has 50% less debts than last week!:mad:

You seriously think that is a positive outcome for Greeks? :eek: Do you think that a penny of that is going to the Greek citizens? :confused:

It's all going to the banks and at the same time, the haircut results into more inflation, more unemployment and even poorer life standards for Greeks...


I'd like to see such rescue on a personal level where people who are overindebted based on chronical statewide corruption and black labour receive a hair cut! I would buy a house and a nice car for myself and then I'd go to the next bank to reduce my debts up to 50%.
This is how the global market works, it is not a special favour to Greeks because they are so nice and the bankers just love them. The games that we will never know of. You think Germans, or other Europeans, care about Greece? :rolleyes:
The reason behind the haircut is 100% to save the German/European/other investment money, so that they would not lose it altogether.

The haircut is helping you, not us.


It's hard to not dislike Greeks as a German these days. :(

I bet your grandparents were saying the same about Jews, a few decades ago.

[Absinthe]

For Leliana, and the rest, read this (http://nextyearcountrynews.blogspot.com/2011/06/anti-greece-campaign-of-international.html).

And I quote:


For what it’s worth, the average Greek retirement age is nearly 65. Some Greeks that I know who take up their retirement funds early, usually receive between 200 and 600 per month. At that point, sitting on your ass is not even an option. These people have to immediately find employment elsewhere, usually more than one job.
After the first round of cuts last year, a high school teacher now earns an average of 800 euros per month. 500 euros of this goes to rent and other fixed costs. You’re left with 300 euros to live off. As a teacher, you simply can’t start a family. And what do you do if you’re a kindergarten teacher or a hostess with a salary of 650 euros per month? A Greek widow (my 94-year old neighbor on Hydra) lives off 400 euros a month. That’s not even enough for her diapers and medicine. She manages to pull through under appalling conditions thanks to her family and neighbors. I don’t know any Dutch person working three jobs to make ends meet, but I do know dozens of Greeks who work three jobs just to survive. Yes, there are Greeks benefiting from high and early retirement. They are an exception, not the rule. By the way: on Hydra, there’s a retired Dutch teacher, a carefree baby boomer, who retired at her fiftieth, never having to work again and enjoying Greece for the rest of her life without any financial worries. Not a single Greek colleague of hers could do that.


The extra income of the people went straight to consumer goods that were imported from abroad. The money borrowed from abroad flowed right back into those very same countries. Industry in Greece slowly faded. Companies went bankrupt. Northern Europe was stronger and better.

And Leliana, don't tell me that the German officials did not know about the Greek corruption when they turned Greece into Siemensland with bribings and under the table agreements.

I have always criticized and vented about Greece and its mistakes but frankly I am tired of taking shit from people who have absolutely no idea what we're going through here. :mad:

[The Lawspeaker]

Still. Knowing that all this is taking place I find it even harder to take the Greek protesters seriously. They have the numbers.. so why don't they storm the parliament and smash everything and everyone that in it (they are traitors so.. they had it coming) and start a revolution ?

[Flintlocke]

Still. Knowing that all this is taking place I find it even harder to take the Greek protesters seriously. They have the numbers.. so why don't they storm the parliament and smash everything and everyone that in it (they are traitors so.. they had it coming) that it's in it and start a revolution ?


There they sit so brokenhearted, trying to shit but only farted.

[Flintlocke]

Here's how the crisis started, Greece was the only country in the EU that was very "communistic" economically. The public sector was about 65% of the whole country's economy. That means inefficient bureaucracy, corruption, non-productivity etc. Add corrupt politicians and constant debt to the mix and you get the idea. It was inevitable that this thing would happen the question is what would the government do when the situation came to where it is today.

Those slimy bastards decided it was the deal of the century, so for two years they did absolutely NOTHING to fix the problem. Instead they decided to raise taxes so much that TENS OF THOUSANDS of private owned businesses were closed. Hundreds of thousands remained unemployed.

Now they are going after the public sector. Millions will be unemployed. Already there are more than a million unemployed. So why did they do that? Was it incompetence? Hell no! They planned it that way. So that they sell all public assets DIRT CHEAP and take their share and make the people so downtrodden so no one would object to working like a serf, more hours a week, less then half the money, no worker's rights, and say thank you to the same BASTARDS that destroyed the whole economy.

[The Lawspeaker]

So for short: it's high time to put Athens' lampposts to good use ?

http://jesshurd.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/jj1106G84.jpg

[Absinthe]

snip

VERY correct :thumb001:

Add to all that, the fact that Greeks were brainwashed during the last 3-4 decades to be envious of the Western lifestyles and to start consuming like there is no tomorrow.
They were offered* loans and credit opportunities to do so,
(* I mean literally offered; at a time, your phone would be ringing 5 times a day and it would be different banks begging you to get a loan...
"Hello, we offer you 3000 euro, no obligations, get now, start paying in 10 years")
and they were bombarded with lifestyle trends in the media so that every Greek should own a Mercedes Benz or a BMW (coincidence? ;)), the newest cell phone and all that jazz...

Add to that the mass urbanization trend where every Greek was forced by unemployment in the countryside to seek for a white collar job in Athens...

Greek industry was progressively wiped out, the agricultural business also declined, and now the only source of income is tourism and foreign investments...

The Olympic games were another act of treason and murky dealings, everyone knew that Greeks cannot afford it but still they forced it on us and we had to take their loans...

This is how you make a country lose dignity and national sovereignty in the blink of an eye...

[Falkata]

They don't want to be 'bailed out' by the Germans/EU, as Chimo Bayo pointed out here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=573426&postcount=4). The EU wants to force Greece to accept loans in order to help banks/the government (which is struggling already precisely because it was forced to accept previous loans). But why should ordinary people pay for big companies' or governments' problems?

This is the ugly side of crude capitalism. Communism is way more humane.

In a real liberal/capitalist world there wouldnt be any rescue or forced loan. Greece would simply default and Germany and France would have serious problems bcause of that. When you buy debt, bonds or wathever you´re expecting X profitability accepting Y risk. Obviously the higher is the risk the higher is the profitability. France and Germany should think twice before buying millions of greek govies
This is all about politics, as usual.

[Midnight]

It's a shame that the fallout of this is causing problems between European peoples.
I can certainly understand why Germans would feel offended about having their flag burned - the attitude of people here is that it seems quite ungrateful to have half your debt written off, and billions promised which will be paid by Germans - and then burn their flag as a 'thanks'. As for blaming Germans for the state of affairs, it's worth remembering that Greek people voted for a party that would put them in the EU, and Greek politicians manipulated data to get them into the euro.
At the same time it's true that the EU has been run principally to the benefit of German industry, and certain banks, French & German ones especially, while being run against the interests of smaller economies like Greece.
Jingoistic tabloids don't help either when slinging mud - the British press especially likes to play up the 'German Reich' aspect of the EU - to sell papers.
Rather than being angry with the Greek public or the German public - I'd hope most people are sensible enough to blame the 'Eurocrats'- although since they're pan-national that might be hard for tabloid populism and 'blame it on the nazi germans/lazy meds' stereotyping - and Bankers/Economists & Co - burn EU Flags, not German ones / Blame Greek politicians, not Greek people - then move on to the Eurocrat political class itself ;).
I'm sure as the whole mess starts unravelling the blame will be correctly apportioned - as trouble spreads beyond Greece even media in Germany will have to start pointing fingers closer to home as German public starts to suffer too - and hopefully, justice meted out accordingly ;).

As for the uniform, I think it's a testament to the stlye of the NS era that it actually makes Merkel look slightly hot ;).


VERY correct :thumb001:

Add to all that, the fact that Greeks were brainwashed during the last 3-4 decades to be envious of the Western lifestyles and to start consuming like there is no tomorrow.
They were offered* loans and credit opportunities to do so,
(* I mean literally offered; at a time, your phone would be ringing 5 times a day and it would be different banks begging you to get a loan...
"Hello, we offer you 3000 euro, no obligations, get now, start paying in 10 years")
and they were bombarded with lifestyle trends in the media so that every Greek should own a Mercedes Benz or a BMW (coincidence? ;)), the newest cell phone and all that jazz...

Add to that the mass urbanization trend where every Greek was forced by unemployment in the countryside to seek for a white collar job in Athens...

Greek industry was progressively wiped out, the agricultural business also declined, and now the only source of income is tourism and foreign investments...

The Olympic games were another act of treason and murky dealings, everyone knew that Greeks cannot afford it but still they forced it on us and we had to take their loans...

This is how you make a country lose dignity and national sovereignty in the blink of an eye...

If you replace 'Greece' with 'Britain', all of that applies here too, although our CorruptioLympic Games happens next year ;).
It also applies to basically all Europe & America in some way or another but it was less bad for Germany because they had the EU as their substitute trade empire.

[Leliana]

I wholeheartedly agree.

But how about this?

http://roarmag.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/German-press-Greece.jpg
http://www.globalpost.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/gp3_small_article/der-spiegel-euro.jpg
Do you compare photoshopped statuettes with the burning of country flags? It's a different affair and the photoshopped statuette fits well when I see how Greeks burn our flags and call all Germans Nazis. That's like showing the middle finger to all of us! We know the surveys who say that the level of Anti-German views in Greece is rising and my personal consequence is that I try to convince all people I know to don't make vacations in Greece again or to never start making vacations in Greece.

I could show you images from Greece where people photoshopped German politicians and other people into Nazi generals or Hitler clones.:rolleyes2:


Greek people - taxpayers - do NOT want the help from your country. The majority of the Greeks did NOT want to be in the EU and the Eurozone in the first place... We were MUCH better off before that and the minute we entered the Euro, we were destroyed.
Okay and why do the Greeks elect politicians of two different rich families to presidency again and yet again? Greeks were happy when they could join the EU and Euro because money comes in bags. I've seen documentaries how happy the Greeks were when they achieved the Euro! But responsiblity and playing with open cards is seemingly not very distributed in your country. :mad:



You seriously think that is a positive outcome for Greeks? :eek: Do you think that a penny of that is going to the Greek citizens? :confused:

It's all going to the banks and at the same time, the haircut results into more inflation, more unemployment and even poorer life standards for Greeks...
The Greek people aren't innocent and they adapted the habit of the politicians. An envelope with some money here and there opens doors and grants preferential treatment in hospitals or in the bureaucracy. German TV is full of covering stories about way of life in Greece. It was easy when it worked but now it stopped to work and the people blame the others but never themselves! Many were profiteers of the system of black labour and corruption on a personal and economical level.


I bet your grandparents were saying the same about Jews, a few decades ago.
That's not the topic and a different subject. Why do you try to bring up the NS era like so many of your compatriots?


I have always criticized and vented about Greece and its mistakes but frankly I am tired of taking shit from people who have absolutely no idea what we're going through here.
Do you know that your country is very dependent on tourism? And do you know how many Germans visited Greece in the last 60 years and how much money they let there?

Germany is saving Greece for the second time now! The first time: All the tourists who came and come to Greece and finance investitions and bring money to your country. The second time: Now with the loans and the credits and the hair cut.

And then some Greeks have the insolence to bring up claims of war reparations? With all the money Germans brought into your country in the last 60 years, ask yourself where would you be without it? That money makes up for a multiplity of war reparations! You would sit on sheep's cheese, stupid olives and gyros without German tourism and German investitions! :mad: And now you would be insolvent on state level!

[Queen B]

Do you compare photoshopped statuettes with the burning of country flags? It's a different affair and the photoshopped statuette fits well when I see how Greeks burn our flags and call all Germans Nazis. That's like showing the middle finger to all of us! We know the surveys who say that the level of Anti-German views in Greece is rising and my personal consequence is that I try to convince all people I know to don't make vacations in Greece again or to never start making vacations in Greece.


In both cases its a defamation, and an insult for the other nation. For you its you flag important, for others its their flag/their heritage, etc.
The difference is that in the case of the flag, it was made by some ordinary individuals, and not by press.
Also do not forget the time of each of these that happen.
First came the FOCUS cover, then came the rest.



I could show you images from Greece where people photoshopped German politicians and other people into Nazi generals or Hitler clones.:rolleyes2:
Yes. Happened exactly after the middle-finger cover of Focus.


Okay and why do the Greeks elect politicians of two different rich families to presidency again and yet again? Greeks were happy when they could join the EU and Euro because money comes in bags. I've seen documentaries how happy the Greeks were when they achieved the Euro! But responsiblity and playing with open cards is seemingly not very distributed in your country. :mad:

Unfortunately, there is a bad political condition in Greece. that's no secret.
But its also not a secret that there are NOT many options.
There are only a few parties that participate (with enough people to make goverment I mean), 2 are ND and Pasok, 1 is communist, one is left winged, close to communism, and onther is Right winged.
Greece have already deal with Communism and Junta, so people are ''avoiding'' the extreme political parties.
Its only just recently that new parties came into the game, and they are gaining popularity little by little.

Note: I am not supporting this argument. I do agree with you on that shitty political conditions and the stupidity of the people who vote the same 2 parties again and again.



The Greek people aren't innocent and they adapted the habit of the politicians. An envelope with some money here and there opens doors and grants preferential treatment in hospitals or in the bureaucracy. German TV is full of covering stories about way of life in Greece. It was easy when it worked but now it stopped to work and the people blame the others but never themselves! Many were profiteers of the system of black labour and corruption on a personal and economical level.

Easy to say, hard to do.What I mean?
If someone of your family members is in danger, that time, you wont think of how corrupted and asshole is the doctor for asking money, but you are going to do everything you can, so he can be saved.
This have never happen to my family, as in in 2 case of life-death situation, no bribery happened, and doctors did their best, but I can't guarantee that if this happen, I (we ) will do otherwise.
You can't risk health, to fight corruption.
Fair? No. Right? No. But what can you do?



Do you know that your country is very dependent on tourism? And do you know how many Germans visited Greece in the last 60 years and how much money they let there?

Germany is saving Greece for the second time now! The first time: All the tourists who came and come to Greece and finance investitions and bring money to your country. The second time: Now with the loans and the credits and the hair cut.

Are you freaking kidding me?
This is giving and getting. You pay, you enjoy. So simple. You invest, you earn.
No-one forced you, no-one begged you. You (You -> Germans) , wanted a sunny place with wonderful beaches that is close to you. You paid, you enjoy it . Same goes for investments. You chose what you though is best for your pockets, you are not favoring anyone.




And then some Greeks have the insolence to bring up claims of war reparations? With all the money Germans brought into your country in the last 60 years, ask yourself where would you be without it? That money makes up for a multiplity of war reparations! You would sit on sheep's cheese, stupid olives and gyros without German tourism and German investitions! :mad: And now you would be insolvent on state level!
Same as above. Nothing of them came for free.

Your argument is invalid. Its like causing an accident to me, but refuse to pay me reparations, because you come and buy clothes from my shop.

[Raikaswinþs]

All right, I'm on the wog side on this. The way Euros are being brainwashed to blame the Greeks here of a crime that is nation-less, or , better said multinational is just irritating. Divide et impera , make those middle class and working class wankers believe this is a matter of race and nationality, and not a corporation's war to completely control citizens all over the continent (and beyond) ... again...history books are utterly useless. Why are those slaves complaining? don't they all have smartphones? what else do they want?? ¬c¬

[arcticwolf]

Did some one say Merkel looks slightly hot? Oh dear. :rolleyes2:

[Turkophagos]

Could you describe the arrangement the protesters are rejecting?


People who burn the flags of nations are the lowest of the lowest and show primitive character traits, and Greeks who burn the flag of my country after all the help my country is giving to them with our money and at our risk are not worth of any annotation. If the loans for Greece should become due it's German tax-payer money which is lost!

They should kiss the flag because their country has 50% less debts than last week!:mad: I'd like to see such rescue on a personal level where people who are overindebted based on chronical statewide corruption and black labour receive a hair cut! I would buy a house and a nice car for myself and then I'd go to the next bank to reduce my debts up to 50%.

It's hard to not dislike Greeks as a German these days. :(


Greece has €350 billion in total debt. About €70 billion are in Troika "post-petition" loans and another €75 billion is held by the ECB. This is what could roughly be called tax payers money, money owed to foreign states, and this money remains untouched according to the deal, it will be payed back with interest. (By the way, this is public money your government used for buying the greek bonds from German bankers, after the crisis started, to protect them and not the Greek or the German people).

This leaves €200 billion in actual debt to undergo a 50% haircut. From these 200 billions, 35 billions is held by Greek pension funds and 100 by the Greek banks. The "haircut" there is useless (not only because Greek pension funds is money the Greek state owes to itself) since, in order of both pension funds and Greek banks won't collapse they will be refunded by the Greek government, with a new loan of 130 billions. 130 billions more debt for deleting 82,5 billions of it!

Our lenders' goal is a Greek debt of around 120% of GDP by 2020. Last year the greek debt was 116% of the country's GDP!


What our saviors ask for exchange is more wage cuts, more taxes, more unemployence, buy the country's wealth and sources for pennies and the establishment of a German government in Greece who is going to be the supervisor of the elected Greek government.


Ungratefull motherfucking Greeks!

[OneWolf]

Good Luck Greece and thank you for all the gifts you have given to society and
mankind!;)

[Leliana]

Unfortunately, there is a bad political condition in Greece. that's no secret.
But its also not a secret that there are NOT many options.
There are only a few parties that participate (with enough people to make goverment I mean), 2 are ND and Pasok, 1 is communist, one is left winged, close to communism, and onther is Right winged.
Greece have already deal with Communism and Junta, so people are ''avoiding'' the extreme political parties.
Its only just recently that new parties came into the game, and they are gaining popularity little by little.
The 100.000s of people who protest and strike should create a new party to break the system of the two party rule. That would be better than burning cars and setting streets and people on fire!

Easy to say, hard to do.What I mean?
If someone of your family members is in danger, that time, you wont think of how corrupted and asshole is the doctor for asking money, but you are going to do everything you can, so he can be saved.
This have never happen to my family, as in in 2 case of life-death situation, no bribery happened, and doctors did their best, but I can't guarantee that if this happen, I (we ) will do otherwise.
You can't risk health, to fight corruption.
Fair? No. Right? No. But what can you do?
What your country needs to do is to eliminate the old malfunctioning system and to create a new system by learning from the better-working countries. Your health system is sorry and useless if it needs bribery to make ill people healthy! This is not worth of a civilized country in Europe, we know such systems from third world countries. :rolleyes: But you help to keep the insanely wrong system alive by playing along and handing out envelopes to doctors or the bureaucracy. All reportages about Greece bring across that the Greeks don't want to understand the the system needs a complete restart! They want to carry on regardless of all the problems and hope that it doesn't come so bad as it seems. But it comes bad and thick! There's no way out. That your country is connected to a foreign life support system is the fault of your own people and your politicians! :mad: Your people had a less stressful life than the people in Central Europe in the recent decades, and more spare-time too. Some day is the day where you need to pay the prize for easy life!

If you don't like it please vote for "No!" in the coming referendum. Leave the Euro and the EU and try to make it alone or with the help of China or Brazil who are like crows.

Are you freaking kidding me?
This is giving and getting. You pay, you enjoy. So simple. You invest, you earn.
No-one forced you, no-one begged you. You (You -> Germans) , wanted a sunny place with wonderful beaches that is close to you. You paid, you enjoy it . Same goes for investments. You chose what you though is best for your pockets, you are not favoring anyone.
Money is a remaining good that you can use but the joys of vacations are fleeting, you can't compare that. German tourists have their memories of the vacation in Greece but memories have no value. The money our tourists let in your country can be used but it seems that it was used very badly.

And Greece is not the only country with sunny places and wonderful beaches. I know that many people will change their holiday direction in the coming years and it won't be Greece after all the anti-German rants.


Greece has €350 billion in total debt. About €70 billion are in Troika "post-petition" loans and another €75 billion is held by the ECB. This is what could roughly be called tax payers money, money owed to foreign states, and this money remains untouched according to the deal, it will be payed back with interest. (By the way, this is public money your government used for buying the greek bonds from German bankers, after the crisis started, to protect them and not the Greek or the German people).

This leaves €200 billion in actual debt to undergo a 50% haircut. From these 200 billions, 35 billions is held by Greek pension funds and 100 by the Greek banks. The "haircut" there is useless (not only because Greek pension funds is money the Greek state owes to itself) since, in order of both pension funds and Greek banks won't collapse they will be refunded by the Greek government, with a new loan of 130 billions. 130 billions more debt for deleting 82,5 billions of it!

Our lenders' goal is a Greek debt of around 120% of GDP by 2020. Last year the greek debt was 116% of the country's GDP!


What our saviors ask for exchange is more wage cuts, more taxes, more unemployence, buy the country's wealth and sources for pennies and the establishment of a German government in Greece who is going to be the supervisor of the elected Greek government.


Ungratefull motherfucking Greeks!
Then be consequential and leave the Euro and the EU! You will see how Greece can survive without the help and support of others. :( And that people who grant you help want to see securities for their help like reforms of the ill system is intelligibly. Only sublime idiots would grant help without insisting on service in return! :mad:

[Absinthe]

:icon_ask: ....I-Inese? :confused:

[The Lawspeaker]

It isn't Inese.

[Absinthe]

I know I am just kidding, the tone sounds very similar :p

Seriously now, much of what Leliana says is unfortunately true (although grossly exaggerated) and it is things we talk about among us and criticize ourselves and our past choices, etc.

There are two things though:

-her views (not "hers" literally but the average layperson's who thinks according to what the media dictate) about Greece are ignorant and grossly exaggerated and largely formulated by the current anti-hellenic propaganda that aims at destabilizing the Eurozone so that some people can get rich when it falls

- she is extremely fanaticized, that is why I keep teasing her about anti-Semitism and stuff. I think that the whole of Europe can see a new anti- tendency arising in Germany. I also think the Germans have it in them (to some extent) - to search for scapegoats for mistakes that have already been made in their full knowledge and risk.

[Queen B]

The 100.000s of people who protest and strike should create a new party to break the system of the two party rule. That would be better than burning cars and setting streets and people on fire!

Everything would be better than burning cars and and setting on fire.
But I am not trusting more someone that puts fires on other people's property, with no thinking. It doesn't make them any better.
(I don't trust NONE of them, anyway)


What your country needs to do is to eliminate the old malfunctioning system and to create a new system by learning from the better-working countries. Your health system is sorry and useless if it needs bribery to make ill people healthy! This is not worth of a civilized country in Europe, we know such systems from third world countries. :rolleyes: But you help to keep the insanely wrong system alive by playing along and handing out envelopes to doctors or the bureaucracy. All reportages about Greece bring across that the Greeks don't want to understand the the system needs a complete restart! They want to carry on regardless of all the problems and hope that it doesn't come so bad as it seems. But it comes bad and thick! There's no way out. That your country is connected to a foreign life support system is the fault of your own people and your politicians! :mad:
You didn't tell how to do it or what you'd do in the same case.
Oh, yeah, you would say NO, I don't give you the envelope, I ll just risk my mother/father and brother's health.
Unlike other countries, Greek medical services are way cheaper, even WITH the ''bribery''.

Of course is not ''healthy'' as method, but its not education, or lifestyle, to chose from. Its life and death issue.Unfortunately

What has to change is NOT people, but justice system. There are lots of cases of people suing doctors for taking bribes, but still, NO punishment.
There should ''ban'' every doctor that accepts it, for unethical working.

Are WE (everyday people) responsible for justice system,too?
I have to check if we are responsible for Global warming as well.

Also, the bribery is NOT a Greek habit, you know, neither a ''3rd world'' habit, too.
If you remember or know, it was Siemens who bribed Greece, in order to ''win'' the security systems for Olympics.

I guess, we learn from ''better working'' countries. ;):wink



Your people had a less stressful life than the people in Central Europe in the recent decades, and more spare-time too. Some day is the day where you need to pay the prize for easy life!

More spare time?
Greeks are working 2,052 hours per year, while Germany works less than 1,391 (source :OECD ).
The fact that we prefer to enjoy differently our spare time, is not the problem.
Neither the fact that we enjoy and value life differently.



If you don't like it please vote for "No!" in the coming referendum. Leave the Euro and the EU and try to make it alone or with the help of China or Brazil who are like crows.
Personally, I want Greece to get out of the Eurozone (EU is irrelevant to that )
Our economy was way better while we had the drachma.


Money is a remaining good that you can use but the joys of vacations are fleeting, you can't compare that. German tourists have their memories of the vacation in Greece but memories have no value. The money our tourists let in your country can be used but it seems that it was used very badly.
What kind of thinking is that?
So what if the money is something material and memories are not?

Does this making us a ''favor''?

You (tourists) came into Greece? Yes.
Stay in a hotel -> pay the hotel
Fly for the trip -> pay the flight
Eating -> pay the food.
Drinking -> pay the drink

(No, we are not charging for the use of sun or the use of beach).

You must realize that you are not donating money, you are paying money, and take something in return.





And Greece is not the only country with sunny places and wonderful beaches. I know that many people will change their holiday direction in the coming years and it won't be Greece after all the anti-German rants.
Be my (our) guest. No-one forced you to come here, and yes, we better NOT have people that think that they are doing us a favor.
No matter what, Greece is always a top destination. And there are still people that know that its worth to spend their money , for what they will get back.
(actually, 2011's tourism increased instead )



Then be consequential and leave the Euro and the EU! You will see how Greece can survive without the help and support of others. :( And that people who grant you help want to see securities for their help like reforms of the ill system is intelligibly. Only sublime idiots would grant help without insisting on service in return! :mad:

I wish we have left Eurozone , years ago (when the crisis started). We would be in a better economic shape compared to present, we wouldn't ''depend'' on bratty countries, that all they want to do is to control us.

[Monolith]

What has to change is NOT people, but justice system. There are lots of cases of people suing doctors for taking bribes, but still, NO punishment.
There should ''ban'' every doctor that accepts it, for unethical working.

We have a saying in my country: "the worst country is one that has the most laws".

Your problems are very much alike those that we have in Croatia, i.e. they are cultural. Bans and laws won't do much good in a country where the mentality is such that they will be circumvented anyway.

The only way to do something about it is to change habits. And it's a long and painful process. I don't think I'll live long enough to see this happening in my home country.

Are WE (everyday people) responsible for justice system,too?
Absolutely. We get precisely the politicians, and by proxy, the public servants we deserve.

[arcticwolf]

Everything would be better than burning cars and and setting on fire.
But I am not trusting more someone that puts fires on other people's property, with no thinking. It doesn't make them any better.
(I don't trust NONE of them, anyway)

First of all I really like your take on things. You are one of my favorite female posters. ;) I may be biased because I like Greece and Greek people. I can't even imagine Greece going under, that's unacceptable. Greece can and will solve it's problems. Look at former communist countries, they were in a lot worse shape than Greece and nowadays they are doing better some of them quite well. I wouldn't dwell in the past too much. You need to elect people that put Greek interests above all else. It'll get worse before it gets better, but it can be done. You have to make sacrifices there is no way around it. The key is the country needs leaders that put Greek national interests first. I lived in Greece for a while, beautiful country and friendly people. Best to you!

[Monolith]

First of all I really like your take on things. You are one of my favorite female posters. ;) I may be biased because I like Greece and Greek people. I can't even imagine Greece going under, that's unacceptable. Greece can and will solve it's problems. Look at former communist countries, they were in a lot worse shape than Greece and nowadays they are doing better some of them quite well. I wouldn't dwell in the past too much. You need to elect people that put Greek interests above all else. It'll get worse before it gets better, but it can be done. You have to make sacrifices there is no way around it. The key is the country needs leaders that put Greek national interests first. I lived in Greece for a while, beautiful country and friendly people. Best to you!
Man, people like you will change the world. ;) :)

[arcticwolf]

Man, people like you will change the world. ;) :)

LOL Hey my Slavic bro. I do appreciate our Slavic humor! :D

[Queen B]

We have a saying in my country: "the worst country is one that has the most laws".

Your problems are very much alike those that we have in Croatia, i.e. they are cultural. Bans and laws won't do much good in a country where the mentality is such that they will be circumvented anyway.

The only way to do something about it is to change habits. And it's a long and painful process. I don't think I'll live long enough to see this happening in my home country.

Absolutely. We get precisely the politicians, and by proxy, the public servants we deserve.

True, but not exactly.

Before telling a story about someone I met, let me tell you his quote
''If you enter politics, you have to follow the wave, if you don't you ll kicked out''.

What I mean? Not long ago, I met a former politician/doctor from a town, while we were traveling to Athens.
He had the best reputation as a doctor in that area, and as a person in general. Once, he managed to be the head of the hospital, because he wanted the best for it.

Right after taking the lead, he started whatever he could to change some thing in there.
Οne of that was a project of remodeling the windows (better, isolated windows). The project let's say had costs of [x] price, for 1.5 years till its done.
He researched and found out that he can has the job done with 4 times LESS the cost of it, and being ready in 6 - 8 months, with even better quality materials.
He made the presentation to the responsible comitee (the project has NOT started , neither FINALIZED with the others), but he took a big fat NO. While he insisted that ''come on its 4 times more expensive, and takes longer, and has not that kind of quality'', do you know what he took?

He was fired from being the head of the hospital.

What I mean is, in some cases and in a degree, its part of the mentality of the people. But system does NOT help to change it.

I have seen changes in the Greek people and their mentality, when they were FORCED or helped to change it. Not suprisingly , from -10 to +10, but gradually changing.


First of all I really like your take on things. You are one of my favorite female posters. ;) I may be biased because I like Greece and Greek people. I can't even imagine Greece going under, that's unacceptable. Greece can and will solve it's problems. Look at former communist countries, they were in a lot worse shape than Greece and nowadays they are doing better some of them quite well. I wouldn't dwell in the past too much. You need to elect people that put Greek interests above all else. It'll get worse before it gets better, but it can be done. You have to make sacrifices there is no way around it. The key is the country needs leaders that put Greek national interests first. I lived in Greece for a while, beautiful country and friendly people. Best to you!

:D Omg, thanks very much :D

What only gives me a '' a breath'' is that Greece and Greeks are strong.
We have gone truth worst of hardships, and we managed to survive, and develope.
We are not a country that was in easy terms.
Just remember that the last 500 years we were under 400 years of Occupation, then we went through 2 Balkan wars, 1 World war, 1 civil war and 1 Junta.

The key is the country needs leaders that put Greek national interests first.


EXACTLY.!!!!:thumbs up

[Eldritch]

The Greek government faced possible collapse on Tuesday as ruling party lawmakers demanded Prime Minister George Papandreou resign for throwing the nation's euro membership into jeopardy with a shock call for a referendum.

Caught unawares by his high-risk gamble, the leaders of France and Germany summoned Papandreou to crisis talks in Cannes on Wednesday to push for a quick implementation of Greece's new bailout deal ahead of a summit of the G20 major world economies.

Six senior members of the ruling PASOK socialist party, angered by his decision to call a plebiscite on the 130 billion euro rescue package agreed only last week, said Papandreou should make way for "a politically legitimate" administration.

Yakaty yakaty yak (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/01/us-greece-referendum-idUSTRE79U5PQ20111101)

Can someone explain to me how an administration that wants to do as the people it represents wishes is not politically legitimate?

[Raikaswinþs]

German money only wants to save German assets.Greece must do everything possible to avoid the bailout.We already know what the first bailouts were used for.Let the banks go bankrupt. Poors will still be poor,but the country wont have been sold out to the German corporations.

Also,tired of that retard fanatic point of view of some Germans here. Wanna be on your own guys?so be it. Stop selling YOUR products to the European members, stop RELOCATING to their countries, yeah you can send us back every Spaniard, every Italian and Every Greek, and take Back Every German...we'll see who loses more.

Your corporations made risky investments with risky polititians and risky policies and want the common folks to pay the bill?? not gonna happen!!. Let's see...what else,oh yeah,you can keep your euro,we will go back to our beloved and devalued drachmas, lira and peseta. :) Also you can keep your system for your selves, we prefer to don't have iPhones, Mercedes and PS3's... our traditional lifestyle is enough for us...give us our afternoon with the family in a terrace sipping coffee and sunbathing , and keep your insane-paced product consuming life.

Also, say bye bye to all your "Little Germany" in our costas,to early retirement with German pensions in PIGS economies....we are REALLY tired of your sight.

You really think the tourist industry has benefited the common Spaniard? LOL , yeah destroying our traditional pueblos, our environment ,our culture to make Acapulco clones all over the place sure has made a few corrupt polititians rich and a bunch of degenerate ,exploiting businessmen made "su Agosto" . But the pueblo only has seen itself invaded with disrespectful ,ignorant twats and immigrant workers mostly from outside the UE.


and of course Sayonara to go get surgery in Spain, to the dentist in Poland and a long etc... we will leave you enjoy your sophisticated health system.

Since you think we are all leeches,well... let's cut the relationship for good. Deal?

Freaking tired of this bullshit.in your words... Ausländer raus!

[The Lawspeaker]

It would also bail out French and other banks. Including non-European banks. The banks fucked up and they deserve to fall. You know how that is called: it's called the free market.

It's funny how politicians always believe in the free market unless it hits their cooperate sponsors and when the banks fall: send the bills to the bankers'and politicians personal accounts -- and they will pay back their debts even if they would have to prostitute themselves, their wifes and their sons and daughters for it !

[Queen B]

German money only wants to save German assets.Greece must do everything possible to avoid the bailout.We already know what the first bailouts were used for.Let the banks go bankrupt. Poors will still be poor,but the country wont have been sold out to the German corporations.

Also,tired of that retard fanatic point of view of some Germans here. Wanna be on your own guys?so be it. Stop selling YOUR products to the European members, stop RELOCATING to their countries, yeah you can send us back every Spaniard, every Italian and Every Greek, and take Back Every German...we'll see who loses more.

Your corporations made risky investments with risky polititians and risky policies and want the common folks to pay the bill?? not gonna happen!!. Let's see...what else,oh yeah,you can keep your euro,we will go back to our beloved and devalued drachmas, lira and peseta. :) Also you can keep your system for your selves, we prefer to don't have iPhones, Mercedes and PS3's... our traditional lifestyle is enough for us...give us our afternoon with the family in a terrace sipping coffee and sunbathing , and keep your insane-paced product consuming life.

Also, say bye bye to all your "Little Germany" in our costas,to early retirement with German pensions in PIGS economies....we are REALLY tired of your sight.

You really think the tourist industry has benefited the common Spaniard? LOL , yeah destroying our traditional pueblos, our environment ,our culture to make Acapulco clones all over the place sure has made a few corrupt polititians rich and a bunch of degenerate ,exploiting businessmen made "su Agosto" . But the pueblo only has seen itself invaded with disrespectful ,ignorant twats and immigrant workers mostly from outside the UE.


and of course Sayonara to go get surgery in Spain, to the dentist in Poland and a long etc... we will leave you enjoy your sophisticated health system.

Since you think we are all leeches,well... let's cut the relationship for good. Deal?

Freaking tired of this bullshit.in your words... Ausländer raus!

And of course, being out of Euro and cutting ties with Germany will mean:

- Forget all imports thru a non-tax country of EU
- Forget controlling Greece's strategic point for Oil and gas thru Asia
- Forget the astronomic money that Greece spends in European defence systems

Let's face it, Germany and other ''Big'' countries didn't want Greece or Bulgaria because of the ''contribution'' they can make into EU , but for where they are, how they can control it, and what they can benefit due to their location

Once I was talking with a foreign friend, more into politics than me and he said.

If only Greece and Turkey were allies and not enemies....

[arcticwolf]

It would also bail out French and other banks. Including non-European banks. The banks fucked up and they deserve to fall. You know how that is called: it's called the free market.

It's funny how politicians always believe in the free market unless it hits their cooperate sponsors and when the banks fall: send the bills to the bankers'and politicians personal accounts -- and they will pay back their debts even if they would have to prostitute themselves, their wifes and their sons and daughters for it !

Bro, you've got it. :thumbs up

[arcticwolf]

:D Omg, thanks very much :D

You are more than welcome :)

[Burgomaster]

Greece needs to leave the Euro. Infact, it should never have adopted the Euro. If you cannot keep up with the big guys like Germany, gtfo of the Euro. :cool:

[Sol Invictus]

Greece’s astonishing decision to call a referendum – "a supreme act of democracy and of patriotism", in the words of premier George Papandreou – has more or less killed last week’s EU summit deal.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100012986/revenge-of-the-sovereign-nation/

[Siberyak]

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100012986/revenge-of-the-sovereign-nation/

I still don't trust the greek Prime minister. He was "educated" in washington DC

[Sol Invictus]

I don't know whether he's actually attempting to stop a bankster's coup or not, but either way his days are numbered.

[The Lawspeaker]

I don't know whether he's actually attempting to stop a bankster's coup or not, but either way his days are numbered.
The Dutch press reported earlier today that the EU (or the market for that matter) is not happy with Papandreou's idea but the Greek cabinet supports it and wants to organise a referendum (http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/7264/Schuldencrisis/article/detail/3009181/2011/11/02/Grieks-kabinet-steunt-plan-voor-referendum.dhtml).

Our Prime Minister (http://www.elsevier.nl/web/Nieuws/Politiek/321091/Rutte-Alles-doen-om-referendum-van-tafel-te-krijgen.htm) went berserk and wants to do whatever it takes to stop it but I really think that he could bring himself into political trouble at home as there are several problems plaguing Dutch politics at the same time so this could get very interesting here too. :D

[Sol Invictus]

There's even talk of a possible military coup (http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/11/01/greece-facing-military-coup-civil-war-imminent-government-collapse-happen-tonight-79831/) (Greek Army Threatens Military Coup Saying "We Will Not Be Sold To Foreign Powers"), and the mainstream news is saying that the Greek government could collapse as soon as tonight.

[The Lawspeaker]

There's even talk of a possible military coup (http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/11/01/greece-facing-military-coup-civil-war-imminent-government-collapse-happen-tonight-79831/) (Greek Army Threatens Military Coup Saying "We Will Not Be Sold To Foreign Powers"), and the mainstream news is saying that the Greek government could collapse as soon as tonight.
All for it ! If necessary. :thumb001:

[Leliana]

There are two things though:

-her views (not "hers" literally but the average layperson's who thinks according to what the media dictate) about Greece are ignorant and grossly exaggerated and largely formulated by the current anti-hellenic propaganda that aims at destabilizing the Eurozone so that some people can get rich when it falls
There's much talk and coverage about Greece in our media and people are increasingly upset and resentful. It's no wonder because our state uses taxpayer money to back the aids and loans for Greece and the ESM. We're offering a helping hand to Greece, putting our own wealth and economic strength at risk, and then the Greeks spit on our hand, throw it away and call us all Nazis! What do you expect? That people suddenly begin to love Greeks? :confused: Your country is not reliable. There was a congress about Greece last week but your president couldn't open his mouth about the planned referendum earlier, no, he did it yesterday all of a sudden.

The current opinion in Germany is that Greeks want to take our money and aid but don't want to comply with treaties, pacts and commitments. The image and reputation of Greeks is lower than the reputation of Turks or Africans right now and it's a dangerous situation for both sides.

- she is extremely fanaticized, that is why I keep teasing her about anti-Semitism and stuff. I think that the whole of Europe can see a new anti- tendency arising in Germany. I also think the Germans have it in them (to some extent) - to search for scapegoats for mistakes that have already been made in their full knowledge and risk.
I'm not fanaticized but I read what I read and I see what I see. It seems that all of Europe demands something from my country but no one is thankful and no one likes it to see if Germans insist on own interests. You see a anti-tendency arising in Germany and I desire that it will become stronger and stronger. Long enough other countries have been abusing our hitler complexes in a shameless and rude way. :(

I mean no harm to Greek people but I expose my view like you do yours.


We have a saying in my country: "the worst country is one that has the most laws".

Your problems are very much alike those that we have in Croatia, i.e. they are cultural. Bans and laws won't do much good in a country where the mentality is such that they will be circumvented anyway.

The only way to do something about it is to change habits. And it's a long and painful process. I don't think I'll live long enough to see this happening in my home country.

Absolutely. We get precisely the politicians, and by proxy, the public servants we deserve.
That's a really good post! :) Greeks must change their mentality and habits to the better. Germany works well because we have many laws and people who stick to the laws, we are orderly and like order. But people who try to circumvent laws all day long destroy their country and make it weak.

I don't want to reply to the anti-German scorn posting of El Comunero Errante. Some dull opinions are better left uncommented and ignored.:shrug:

Various German leading economists like Olaf Henkel want to support the idea of two Euro zones: One zone for the strong and powerful Euro countries with a hard currency and a Club Med-Euro for the weaker countries with a soft currency. :) It sounds worthwhile! The problematic countries could devalue their currency and that's what you people want, am I right?

http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/01497/grafik_euro_DW_Wir_1497252p.jpg

[Monolith]

There's even talk of a possible military coup (http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2011/11/01/greece-facing-military-coup-civil-war-imminent-government-collapse-happen-tonight-79831/) (Greek Army Threatens Military Coup Saying "We Will Not Be Sold To Foreign Powers"), and the mainstream news is saying that the Greek government could collapse as soon as tonight.
How serious are news like this one? I mean, that would be great for Greece (in the long run), though I doubt things like that will actually happen.


Various German leading economists like Olaf Henkel want to support the idea of two Euro zones: One zone for the strong and powerful Euro countries with a hard currency and a Club Med-Euro for the weaker countries with a soft currency. :) It sounds worthwhile! The problematic countries could devalue their currency and that's what you people want, am I right?

You're correct. But that would essentially mean the defeat of Euro as a currency, as well as the defeat of the common market. You'd be having disintegration rather than integration. I tend to think there exist very powerful interest groups that will not allow it.

[Falkata]

We're offering a helping hand to Greece, putting our own wealth and economic strength at risk, and then the Greeks spit on our hand, throw it away and call us all Nazis! What do you expect? That people suddenly begin to love Greeks? :confused: Your country is not reliable. There was a congress about Greece last week but your president couldn't open his mouth about the planned referendum earlier, no, he did it yesterday all of a sudden.



If Germany is offering a "helping hand" is because Germany has a huge exposure to greek debt. If not they wouldn´t be so generous.
Merkel is terrified by the Greece´s referendum thing for a reason.
When Greece was buying german cars and industrial machinery nobody said a word about greeks being lazy or corrupted though

[The Lawspeaker]

What's in It for the Greeks?

I'm having increasing trouble believing any rescue of Greece is possible.

The deepest problem, as I see it, is not German intransigence. It's not the ECB's refusal to play a more active role.

It's that I cannot come up with a good answer to the question: what's in it for Greece?

The austerity measures proposed by Greece's would-be rescuers basically entail shutting Greece out of credit markets for years.

Greece will be expected, in relatively short order, to run primary budget suplusses but will actually run budget deficits because of the level of its debt payments. That is, the Greek government will extract and export Greek wealth and ship it abroad, while cutting government services and spending at home.

Now suppose that Greece just repudiates every single euro of debt it owes to non-Greeks. Its would still be unable to borrow abroad. But it would not lose access to domestic lending sources, the way it does under the austerity proposals. What's more, it would no longer need to make those debt service payments, which would mean domestic government spending would not need to shrink as much.

I wouldn't be surprised if Greece found itself able to borrow earlier post-repudiation than post-rescue. The rescue sees Greece with debt equal to 120 percent of GDP in 2020. After repudiation, the debt levels would be much, much lower, instantly. Greece would have one of the cleanest balance sheets in Europe. Lenders looking to deploy credit would wind up holding their nose and making loans to Greece.

To put it in even simpler terms: if the practical effect of any rescue proposed by Greece is to force Greece to "live within its means," the logical response is to repudiate debt. If you are living within your means, you don't need access to global credit markets.

Still differently: if you owed $40,000 in credit card debt you could no afford to pay, and decided to swear off ever incurring more debt, why not declare bankruptcy? You don't need good credit if you aren't going to use it.


By: John Carney
Senior Editor, CNBC.com

Source: CNBC (http://www.cnbc.com/id/45120301) (Tuesday, 1 Nov 2011)

[Qutuzistan]

You can't entirely blame the EU and you can't lay the blame entirely on Greece either. Greeks got too greedy with EU benefits and EU lenders&Co got greedy with generous amounts of promised capital returns. If Greece abandons the EU, their debt will increase. It doesn't mean they'll get new terms, it only means that currency in which they pay their debt changes. Besides they're already making negotiations that will cut debt for greece and taking measures to keep greece from plummeting further.