Do you support abortion?

[Christian552]

State reason(s) for why you do or do not.

[HungAryan]

No.
Abortion = Murder

[jerney]

Yes. Nobody should be forced to have a child they don't want.

[Christian552]

Poll added.

[Queen B]

I , not support, but somewhat agree with the fact that a woman has the right to choose what she wants with her body.

However, I would -personally- never get an abortion, unless medical reasons involved.

[Beorn]

Do I willingly accept the logic behind abortion? No.
Do I accept that reality is often far removed from belief? Yes.

It's mostly the motivation of the abortion which makes me sick to the heart.

[SilverKnight]

[Somehow No] because no one should have the rights to decide the life of another forthcoming human unless it's for life threatening reasons for the carrier/ mother.

If it was caused for rape I'm okay with it if it's very early on the pregnancy.

[Breedingvariety]

I support abortion! It means birth was NOT necessary.

[The Lawspeaker]

Well.. I am pro-choice but only for pragmatic reasons - although I personally consider abortion to be murder unless there is a direct medical necessity (so I would condone it rather then support it and that's why I am voting no when it comes to the question of whether I support it) but I just don't think that it is right to leave such issues to the authorities when there is a non-corrupt court (a.k.a God) that can deal with it just as well and ultimately even better then many a man-made court.

And, of course, I am afraid that women will start harming themselves and consult back-alley abortionists like they did before abortion was legalised -- with all the devastating consequences that are attached to it so: keep abortion safe, rare and legal.

As such i support the current Dutch model (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_Netherlands):

In the Netherlands, abortion performed by a certified clinic or hospital is effectually allowed at any point between conception and viability, subject to a five-day waiting period. After the first trimester, the procedure becomes stricter as two doctors must consent to treatment. In practice, abortions are performed until approximately 24 weeks into pregnancy, although this limit is the topic of ongoing discussion among physicians in the Netherlands, since, due to recent medical advancements, a fetus may sometimes considered viable prior to 24 weeks. As a result of this debate, abortions are only rarely performed after 22 weeks of pregnancy. Abortions after the first trimester must be performed in a hospital.

Although I would be in favour of a mandatory meeting with a doctor before a decision is taken so the doctor can try to talk a mother out of it (unless there is a medical necessity) and to point out which legal, social and financial provisions have been made for them and "unwanted" children and I would also like to reduce the limit to until 22 weeks into pregnancy.

[rhiannon]

Yes...but I draw the line at the age of viability...and VASTLY prefer that if the abortion is going to happen, the woman getting it isn't dumb enough to try doing so after the first trimester, unless there is a medical necessity.

[Sally]

Hasn't there already been a thread (or two) on this topic? :confused:

My answer is no, I do not support direct abortion, because I don't support the intentional destruction of human life.

On a related note, I also oppose direct euthanasia and intentional homicide, mistreating the dead, suicide, terrorism (kidnapping or hostage taking), torture and the use of drugs (except on therapeutic grounds).

Ultimately, I believe in respect for human life.

[Turkey]

depends who we are killing:)

[Boudica]

No. HOWEVER there are certain circumstances which make abortion understandable. If the woman has some sort of condition where she and or the infant could die from attempting to give birth, I completely understand an abortion. If the woman was raped, I completely understand an abortion as well. If the woman is in her later years, which could lead to an unhealthy child, or her own death/the babies, I understand abortion. Last but not least, although this is hopefully rare, if a young girl (young being 13-) becomes pregnant and has a body which could not fully support labor, etc I understand an abortion, however if she is older, and the circumstances are not present, I think that she should put the baby up for adoption/a prearranged adoption.

When it comes down to it, I think that people need to take responsibility for their actions. People who use abortions as some form of birth control disgust me. People know what it takes to become pregnant, they were taught this during childhood. That being said, if they do not wish to have a child they know to use some form of protection (although I realize only birth control is close to being 100% effective). It is their responsibility to use protection and if they choose not to do so and a child begins growing inside of the woman's womb, then they need to take responsibility for their ignorant actions and either 'work it out', or put the child up for adoption.

Every soul should have a right to life. A future person that could have been you or I, does not deserve to be punished and never see the light of day because of two grown adult peoples irresponsibility, period.

[hannah]

i am a mother of two, i have never had an abortion and dont think i would if got pregnant unplaned,but i do support abortion, call me old fashion i dont care but i believe that first of all you have to be in love with the person whom you want to have(plan to have) children with, dont have ch for the wrong reasons is not fair one the ch,have an obortion rather. saying that, being in love with someone doesnt mean your life will run smoothly,for one reason or another u might seperate...that depends what life brings in to you. i had a friend whom was in love with her husband,a terrible thing happened in their life and she was so unhappy,never told him,then she decided ou i am going to have a ch with him as he is a good person and would be a good father,yes he is a fantastic father,but she is cheating on him and that make me sick. i might think differently if she had the ch before she felt out of love

[Leliana]

I'm against abortion because it's clear murder and like punishing unborn children for the mistakes of their parents! And it's also against creation and natural law.

Abortion is daily genocide.

http://img2.werkenntwen.de/club/big/ij/ijdwm2kk1.jpg

http://abortionprosandcons.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/64b60_abortion_pros_9274332_a2e0217e1d_m.jpg

http://mundabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/pro-life.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_s_Md9v7vbfo/S8MgfPv55YI/AAAAAAAAAZY/qdtLlgMI5DA/s1600/prolifesign.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ckWT6AVgScs/TTfE-5nuEgI/AAAAAAAAA6U/8IG5peyzuY8/s1600/prolife3.png

[research_centre]

Yes. Nobody should be forced to have a child they don't want.

Then they should learn to keep their parts in their pants.

[research_centre]

I'm against abortion because it's clear murder and like punishing unborn children for the mistakes of their parents! And it's also against creation and natural law.

Abortion is daily genocide.

http://img2.werkenntwen.de/club/big/ij/ijdwm2kk1.jpg

http://abortionprosandcons.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/64b60_abortion_pros_9274332_a2e0217e1d_m.jpg

http://mundabor.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/pro-life.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_s_Md9v7vbfo/S8MgfPv55YI/AAAAAAAAAZY/qdtLlgMI5DA/s1600/prolifesign.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ckWT6AVgScs/TTfE-5nuEgI/AAAAAAAAA6U/8IG5peyzuY8/s1600/prolife3.png

I agree with you except for three prevailing conditions. 1. A European woman subjected to a Negroid rape. 2. Life-threatening issue. 3. Incest

[Joe McCarthy]

Depends on the country. For the US, yes.

[Onychodus]

new american "hero"
http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/110122-gosnell-vsml-5p.grid-4x2.jpg

[research_centre]

new american "hero"
http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/110122-gosnell-vsml-5p.grid-4x2.jpg

What the hell is that?

[Onychodus]

What the hell is that?

ask americans

[Tolleson]

Hasn't there already been a thread (or two) on this topic? :confused:

There have been several of these threads. :rolleyes:

I can predict, with certainty, that this will turn into the same old shit show! :pop2:

Carry on. :wink

[Money Shot]

ask americans



A real piece of garbage whose mother shoud have aborted him. :mad:

[Sylvanus]

If coal-burner I support. Ordinally do not.

[Tabiti]

Yes. Better to kill few cells in the womb, than a person later.

[Supreme American]

Too bad there isn't a button for selectively supporting abortion, such as for non-whites and mongrels.

[Supreme American]

Yes. Nobody should be forced to have a child they don't want.

They aren't. It's called adoption.

[Leliana]

Yes. Better to kill few cells in the womb, than a person later.
A person is just some cells more, according to your stupid and cruel logic.

[Onychodus]

A real piece of garbage whose mother shoud have aborted him. :mad:

more important that these occurences are routine. more effective monitoring system should be developed to prevent similar cases

[jerney]

They aren't. It's called adoption.

Adoption doesn't break a biological connection. You will biologically have a child and you will always be their biological parent whether you raise them or not.

[Tabiti]

A person is just some cells more, according to your stupid and cruel logic.
Yes, it is actually, however we accept that there is reason, an individualism in the older person. That is what stops us from murder in most cases. Reality is cruel, abortion as well. However abortion is as ancient as pregnancy, just like the murder.

[Scrapple]

No I don't personally support abortion and if I got a woman pregnant accidentally I would strongly urge her not to have one unless her health was in danger or the child would be severely disabled. If she did anyway I would immediately end the relationship.

Now as a matter of policy I don't believe the state has the right to tell a woman through the force of law not to have an abortion. I do realize there are special circumstances such as health of the mother, rape, incest etc where an abortion can be justified. I believe sensible regulations are the best way to handle the issue.

[Loddfafner]

I'll repeat what I have said the precious times this has comes up (if someone can be bothered to find the threads, I can splice tham).

I am against abortion, and I am against laws that ban abortion. They are bad policy. Clinton was right with his 'safe, legal and rare' formula.

I am not planning on having an abortion, and it would be presumptuous to call on the state to interfere with the options of a woman in a real jam.

Those who think that the women should be forced to give birth and then give up the babies for adoption had better stop restricting people - such as gays - from adopting.

Those who oppose contraception along with abortion are a special kind of stupid.

[Wanderlust]

I'll repeat what I have said the precious times this has comes up (if someone can be bothered to find the threads, I can splice tham).



Abortion? (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1712&highlight=abortion)

Pro-life or pro-choice? Your stance on abortion. (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27708&highlight=abortion)

Abortion and the Death Penalty: Are the two thought patterns linked? (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10718&highlight=abortion)

"The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion" (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3060&highlight=abortion)

[Eldritch]

Anti-choice, pro-death here.

[Joe McCarthy]

I'll repeat what I have said the precious times this has comes up (if someone can be bothered to find the threads, I can splice tham).

I am against abortion, and I am against laws that ban abortion. They are bad policy. Clinton was right with his 'safe, legal and rare' formula.

I am not planning on having an abortion, and it would be presumptuous to call on the state to interfere with the options of a woman in a real jam.

Those who think that the women should be forced to give birth and then give up the babies for adoption had better stop restricting people - such as gays - from adopting.

Those who oppose contraception along with abortion are a special kind of stupid.

You managed to repeat about every liberal cliche on the issue in one short post. That's impressive, really.

Of course, the reality is that abortion, though legal, is neither safe nor rare. We have more abortions than we did before Roe v. Wade and the injury rate for women undergoing the 'procedure' is rather high.

[Supreme American]

Adoption doesn't break a biological connection. You will biologically have a child and you will always be their biological parent whether you raise them or not.

And? Who cares what the parent thinks? I'm more concerned about the white child than the bitchy mother.

[SilverKnight]

A real piece of garbage whose mother shoud have aborted him. :mad:

:coffee:

[Christian552]

And? Who cares what the parent thinks? I'm more concerned about the white child than the bitchy mother.

what about the poor african or asian child? :cry2

[Norse Sword]

Legalized abortion turned many European and White European American women into carefree failures.

Not only are the mental stresses and regrets of abortions rarely publicized, it gave White European women the careless freedom to give little consideration in their sex practices.

Same with the pill.


Problem today, problem solved tomorrow. Not only did its legalization coincide with astronomical plummeting birthrates in Europe and European American demographics, but White Europe and European Americans now enjoy the pathetic title of the worlds most endangered racial group.

In this day and age, with the myriad of modern birth control available, women who are too stupid to figure out how not to get pregnant, are the ones who should be aborted.

They consider their potential children a mistake?
To be disposed of like a used tampon, a minor inconvenience.

I mean really, talking about making your race look bad. Imagine a whole section of a generation of White women, who look at their potential offspring as nothing more than a minor inconvenience.

Then the morons stand around and wonder why Europe and America can't even reproduce to replacement level birthrates.

Chalk another notch in the liberal sewer called "social progress".:thumbs up

A race that considers the legal elimination of its offspring is a 'Right"?

How cowardly. You would expect such practices from primate level sub humans, but a race that is supposed to be the front runners of advanced society?
Pathetic. Truly.

[Christian552]

It's a close tie here.

I must say I only support it in certain circumstances which happen about 10-15% of the time or less.

Abortion as a birth control of some sort in nasty. A girl in my class aborted her last 3 children, disgusting.

[askra]

i'm in favour with abortion, because i think it should be a free chose of the parents if have a child or not.

[Norse Sword]

what about the poor african or asian child? :cry2

That is why Europe is being diminished. Pathetic saps care more about the children of other nations, while abortion clinic dumpsters in Europe and America are being filled with White fetuses, disposed of, by a mentally diseased society.

Why this is even a debatable question among Europeans, trying to preserve their culture?:eek: is a profound failure of that very same mental capability.

Lets preserve our people, but allow the large scale elimination of our offspring.

That is some level of mind boggling logic there.:confused::mad:

[Templar]

Yes. Nobody should be forced to have a child they don't want.

Does that include the man?

[Supreme American]

what about the poor african or asian child? :cry2

I've already stated that I want non-whites and mongrels freely aborted, and in the largest numbers possible.

[Templar]

I , not support, but somewhat agree with the fact that a woman has the right to choose what she wants with her body.

However, I would -personally- never get an abortion, unless medical reasons involved.

The woman should have the right to choose...to keep her legs together or take the pill, but not take a life.

[Supreme American]

That is why Europe is being diminished. Pathetic saps care more about the children of other nations, while abortion clinic dumpsters in Europe and America are being filled with White fetuses, disposed of, by a mentally diseased society.

This is one of the biggest problems our people face. White people don't give a crap about their own and bust out in soppy tears at the site of a turd worlder wallowing around in some puddle of slop. My German immigrant mother had the same problem. She used to get teary at the UNICEF commercials in the 80s with the emaciated Ethiopians in them.

On the one hand, these idiots keep yammering about how they're our "equals," yet at the same time keep behaving as if these people can't get along on their own without being smothered with white charity and patronage. You can't have it both ways. Think they're equals? Cut 'em loose.

[Templar]

Yes...but I draw the line at the age of viability...and VASTLY prefer that if the abortion is going to happen, the woman getting it isn't dumb enough to try doing so after the first trimester, unless there is a medical necessity.

You cant have it both ways. It is, or it isnt a life.

[Supreme American]

The woman should have the right to choose...to keep her legs together or take the pill, but not take a life.

In the case of whites, yes. With others...

[Supreme American]

Abortion as a birth control of some sort in nasty. A girl in my class aborted her last 3 children, disgusting.

Only one word can describe her. Whore.

[Norse Sword]

Only one word can describe her. Whore.

Not really. She is just the product of a diseased society, and that disease is liberalism.


In other words, in the progressive shit box called modern society, she has been taught that what she has done, well, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.

But not welcoming some maggot spawn from the Middle East to live next door?

You are a RACIST INTOLERANT BIGOT WHITE SUPREMACIST EURO TRASH .

Modern Liberalism, ABORT YOUR WHITE CHILDREN=your right, nothing wrong with that.

Resent and resist hundreds of thousands of maggot turd world scum invading your nations?= too bad, government is going to allow it anyways, and you will support THEIR CHILDREN WITH YOUR TAX DOLLARS.

[Templar]

No I don't personally support abortion and if I got a woman pregnant accidentally I would strongly urge her not to have one unless her health was in danger or the child would be severely disabled. If she did anyway I would immediately end the relationship.

Now as a matter of policy I don't believe the state has the right to tell a woman through the force of law not to have an abortion. I do realize there are special circumstances such as health of the mother, rape, incest etc where an abortion can be justified. I believe sensible regulations are the best way to handle the issue.

Quote: "if I got a woman pregnant accidentally"

I have never made love to a woman accidentally, how on earth would you do that. It's not like you bump into her and Bam! oops, she pregnant. There are a chain of events and choices made by each person before the act actually takes place. :confused:

[Money Shot]

That is why Europe is being diminished. Pathetic saps care more about the children of other nations, while abortion clinic dumpsters in Europe and America are being filled with White fetuses, disposed of, by a mentally diseased society.

Why this is even a debatable question among Europeans, trying to preserve their culture?:eek: is a profound failure of that very same mental capability.

Lets preserve our people, but allow the large scale elimination of our offspring.

That is some level of mind boggling logic there.:confused::mad:



I completely agree.


The 3rd worlders flooding the U.S. actually respect the idea of children and therefore do not abort thier babies as a matter of convenience.


That what abortion on demand really is, a convenience. Convenience is something we in the west have grown way to addicted to. Really in all aspects of our lives. If something isn't convenient, we can dispose of it. Even our children.


Sad. This shouldn't even be a question for us.

[rhiannon]

You cant have it both ways. It is, or it isnt a life.

I gave my opinion. You're entitled to disagree:)

[jerney]

Does that include the man?

Yes.

[Christian552]

I've already stated that I want non-whites and mongrels freely aborted, and in the largest numbers possible.

:eek:

[BeerBaron]

I donno, i'm just gonna go with "I don't care"

yes abortions affect the white population, so, bad

BUT abortions disproportionately affect the poor (who are usually brown) so, good
also i think the most likely person to get an abortion is a black woman, so, good

[Sikeliot]

Saying I support abortion makes it sound like I think it's a good thing.. I don't. I disapprove of teenage sluts who get pregnant six times (and I blame their equally faulty and promiscuous boyfriends as well who get them pregnant) who then rush to the abortion clinic for what is not their first abortion to be had, as well as irresponsible people who sleep around without a care in the world and get abortions as frequently as they get their hair done.

HOWEVER.. I believe every woman has a right to choose whether or not she wants an abortion in situations that may call for them, i.e. rape, health issues, etc. I don't however think abortion should be deemed another form of birth control, the one to always fall back on to make up for one's irresponsibility.

I selected yes on the poll, but I support choice, not abortion itself.

[Sally]

It's a close tie here.

Abortion as a birth control of some sort in nasty. A girl in my class aborted her last 3 children, disgusting.

Do you know her personally? Did the same man impregnate her all three times? She probably could benefit from some sort of counseling. Who knows, she could be suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, or some sort of psychological distress. :(

It is difficult not to be disgusted that someone has chosen to abort three children. There is no way to know her motives, but many women seek abortion out of coercion, out of desperation or out of illness.

[Jake Featherston]

I oppose abortion because it is, at best, next-of-kin to wanton murder.

[Jake Featherston]

I agree with you except for three prevailing conditions. 1. A European woman subjected to a Negroid rape. 2. Life-threatening issue. 3. Incest

I don't consider the second example to truly be an abortion as such. A medical procedure intended to preserve the life of the mother, which results (by necessity) in the destruction of her gestating child, is not best understood as an abortion per se.

As far as the other two examples go, well, I'm not sure I agree...but I certainly sympathize with your motives there.

[Boudica]

One thing that I must express my anger about is when people say things such as "It's not a living thing that is inside of her, it's not a person, if it is aborted it doesn't matter",etc. This drives me nuts. While this may be true in a technical/scientific way to an extent during a certain time frame of the woman's pregnancy, in the big picture it is not true and in many ways this thinking disgusts me.. People who say that there is no life form in a woman's womb while she is pregnant should think about themselves on a deeper level, and reflect on their entire existence.

You, me, and everyone who is alive right now were once this supposed "nonliving thing", however we exist right now because of the fact that our mothers chose to have us. If she didn't choose to give birth to us, and instead chose to abort us, then we wouldn't be here, we would never exist, the only place that we would be is inside of a clinic's garbage can.. What I am saying may sound a bit harsh, but when it comes down to it, it's true. Think of all of the people in life that you love, think of the things that bring you joy, think of waking up, think of taking your next breath.. You would never have experienced any of these things or have the ability to live life if your mother would have chosen to abort you. You would be completely nonexistent, which is something that you can't even fully comprehend being.

People who say things like I described earlier, should really think about these things. If they still consider a growing human being inside of a woman's womb to be nothing but some sort of nonexistent stomach stuffer, then they must have little respect for the life of others, or their own.

[zack]

In the case of whites, yes. With others...

You are too extreme lagergeld,all this talk of "aborting all mongrels" belongs at stormfront. We are better than those mouth breathing neo-nazis,every statement you make like that pushes people away from the cause of preservation.

The apricity needs a reputation of intelligence and reasoning,not this "kill all niggers and dump the aborted mongrel nigglets into the trashcan!" mentality.

If not....then the apricity will just end up as another clone of stormfront and VNN.

[Boudica]

I've already stated that I want non-whites and mongrels freely aborted, and in the largest numbers possible.

What you said is way too extreme, and pretty vile. By mongrel, I'm assuming that you are using it in terms of it's actual definition, so you must be using it to symbolize mixed raced offsprings.. I don't think that the type of non-whites who will raise their children to be nothing but a disgusting pain in the ass to humanity should have children, and I don't agree with 'mixed breeding' so to say.. However to include all nonwhites, and people that are mixed raced into this pool of genocidal-like abortions (especially non-whites who will be raised properly) is disgusting and degrading to the entire cause of preservation..

While I believe that my people should be separate from other races, and in NO way condone mix breeding, I would never wish the death of a non white fetus just because of the fact that they aren't white, especially if that fetus will be properly raised and become a contribution to their peoples society.. While I am a European preservationist, I am also a realistic person who believes that in order for European preservation to achieve, other races of people need to stay with their own and preserve their people as well. That way, they will no longer seek our lands, or our people. I think that in a way promoting the preservation of their own people on their own lands is a much more realistic and MORAL way of expressing my desire of European preservation then this maniacal racial extinction view of yours..

As Zack said above, which I have said many times, these sort of extremist views turn others who are effected by the liberalist, pro-multiracial society we live in off of European preservation, and even more onto multi culturism.. When the topic of white/European preservation is brought up to the average person in society, they automatically correlate it with racism, nazism, idiotic jew conspiracies, and current white racial groups such as the KKK.. This being said, they are turned off, and don't want anything to do with European preservation because these things make it look like shit, and society is right there at every corner making it look like shit enough as it is.

No one is going to listen to some psychotic blabbing retard ranting about killing off non whites, they will if anything be afraid of you or recommend putting yourself in a mental institution.. However people MAY pay attention to a person who intelligently expresses the 'cause' of European preservation, by discussing basic facts that support it, by speaking logically, and at first going about the topic in an easy manor. All you do by blabbing about what you did above, is poison preservation.

[Laudanum]

Yes.

[Joe McCarthy]

You are too extreme lagergeld,all this talk of "aborting all mongrels" belongs at stormfront. We are better than those mouth breathing neo-nazis,every statement you make like that pushes people away from the cause of preservation.

The apricity needs a reputation of intelligence and reasoning,not this "kill all niggers and dump the aborted mongrel nigglets into the trashcan!" mentality.

If not....then the apricity will just end up as another clone of stormfront and VNN.

What you say is no doubt true in PR terms but those who acknowledge that a fetus is a living being and favor selective abortion are no doubt less hypocritical and even less monstrous than the 'pro-choice' crowd that favors indiscriminate legal abortion and claims the fetus isn't a living being. The latter, for whatever reason, just happens to have mainstream credibility.

[zack]

What you say is no doubt true in PR terms but those who acknowledge that a fetus is a living being and favor selective abortion are no doubt less hypocritical and even less monstrous than the 'pro-choice' crowd that favors indiscriminate legal abortion and claims the fetus isn't a living being. The latter, for whatever reason, just happens to have mainstream credibility.

Thats fine and true and i agree.

[Leliana]

Oh god I can't believe that the supporters of adoption are dead even with the supporters of life. :( That's a very frustrating sight in a board dedicated to the preservation of European people.

I've been engaged in several "No abortion!" demonstrations in my country and in a local panel of the church and how do we want to save our civilisations if the advocates of abortion are equal inside a scene which claims of itself as dedicated to the best of European people? :confused: Is the annual genocide on unborn Europeans not enough harm to us?

Incredibly sad!

[Hevneren]

In principle, I support abortion as an option, but it should never replace the use of contraceptives, or common sense.

[Hevneren]

Hasn't there already been a thread (or two) on this topic? :confused:

My answer is no, I do not support direct abortion, because I don't support the intentional destruction of human life.

On a related note, I also oppose direct euthanasia and intentional homicide, mistreating the dead, suicide, terrorism (kidnapping or hostage taking), torture and the use of drugs (except on therapeutic grounds).

Ultimately, I believe in respect for human life.

This is off topic, but why do you categorically oppose suicide and euthanasia, or drug use? If an adult person wants to end his life and hurts nobody else in the process, shouldn't that be their right? Same with drugs. If you smoke marihuana, for instance, and don't harm anyone while doing it, is it necessarily wrong? Being Christian I know your perspective differs from mine, but in Christianity there's a matter of free will.

[Pallantides]

I'm sort of against abortion, but I do think it can be warranted in some extreme cases.
I also think a father should have a say in the matter and not just the mother. It would flat out suck if I made a baby with my girlfriend and then she suddenly out whim wanted to kill our future child.




A healthy woman who bears a healthy child should not be allowed to abort it imo.

[Turkey]

wow we are screwed. look at the poll. This is meant to be a preservation site.I doubt the mainstream would have a higher pro-obortion percentage

[The Lawspeaker]

wow we are screwed. look at the poll. This is meant to be a preservation site.I doubt the mainstream would have a higher pro-obortion percentage
I doubt that preservationism means forcing women to have unwanted children -- particularly after a rape. And I doubt that preservationism means having the country (like the United States) overrun with Hispanic and African American children that are born out of wedlock as a the majority of abortions are carried out amongst those very people.

If that would be preservationism then I am not a preservationist nor would I want to be one.

[Turkey]

I was under the impression that's whites were having the most abortions?

[The Lawspeaker]

I was under the impression that's whites were having the most abortions?

No.

[Joe McCarthy]

I was under the impression that's whites were having the most abortions?

Blacks in the US have about 35% of abortions, and they are 12% of the population. The practical effect of overturning Roe v. Wade is that conservative Southern states with heavy black populations would ban abortion, which would likely lead to more blacks percentage wise.

[Óttar]

I am not a fan of abortion, but I think it should be legal up until a certain amount of time when the fetus is not very developed. I think abortion should be legal due to pragmatism, i.e. so that amateur, unsafe abortion procedures are not performed etc.

I don't understand this whole "It's my body, my choice" argument, when we are clearly not talking about the woman's body, but instead the child's independent, sovereign, separate body. The child's body may have been formed of material FROM the mother's body, but it obviously becomes its own independent self-willed entity.

[jerney]

I am not a fan of abortion, but I think it should be legal up until a certain amount of time when the fetus is not very developed. I think abortion should be legal due to pragmatism, i.e. so that amateur, unsafe abortion procedures are not performed etc.

I don't understand this whole "It's my body, my choice" argument, when we are clearly not talking about the woman's body, but instead the child's independent, sovereign, separate body. The child's body may have been formed of material FROM the mother's body, but it obviously becomes its own independent self-willed entity.

This (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_PtijYSkNn3A/SH6FHMacqOI/AAAAAAAAAMw/qC0mq8rD4yM/s320/7week.jpg) is not a "child" or "baby", imo. Aborting something like this (http://health.state.ga.us/wrtk/images/g30weeks.jpg), however, is an entirely different story. That's when someone enters the territory of killing their "baby".

[Sikeliot]

This (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_PtijYSkNn3A/SH6FHMacqOI/AAAAAAAAAMw/qC0mq8rD4yM/s320/7week.jpg) is not a "child" or "baby", imo.

I agree.

[Turkey]

Civis and Joe. I stand corrected.
From those stats it's sounds like Euros are more responsible.

Jerney and Clem. You're full of crap!:D

[Zephyr]

This (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_PtijYSkNn3A/SH6FHMacqOI/AAAAAAAAAMw/qC0mq8rD4yM/s320/7week.jpg) is not a "child" or "baby", imo.

It's not a bacteria, I asure you.

It's a human being in embryonary state. Still a human being.

If it endangers your life, it's undoubtedly acceptable to sacrifice it. If it is going to be born crippled it is a duty to spare him/her a miserable life.

But if you are just terminating a pregnancy because of mundane reasons, it's one of the most heinous forms of hedonism and the ultimate irresponsibility.

[Turkey]

It's not a bacteria, I asure you.

It's a human being in embryonary state. Still a human being.

If it endangers your life, it's undoubtedly acceptable to sacrifice it. If it is going to be born crippled it is a duty to spare him/her a miserable life.

But if you are just terminating a pregnancy because of mundane reasons, it's one of the most heinous forms of hedonism and the ultimate irresponsibility.

It's pretty odd that preservationists use the same line which was used to push it through the court room. I mean kill a fetus, but don't bullshit about it girls. :)

[jerney]

It's pretty odd that preservationists use the same line which was used to push it through the court room. I mean kill a fetus, but don't bullshit about it girls. :)

Well, it isn't considered a fetus until the 9th week.

[Zephyr]

However, as for the question in the poll, I don't care. People who don't honour humankind don't deserve to procreate, so yes I'm all for them to abort. By all means. Europeans in general no longer deserve this world, anyway.

[Turkey]

Well, it isn't considered a fetus until the 9th week.

That's just politics and law. I'm not a court room or some mug at university. I'm just a guy on a preservation site with a decent bullshit detector.

I'd like everyone to be frank and refrain from Politically correct arguments here, because if I wanted to hear the generally considered opinion I'd watch 'A current affair' or go to a socialist meeting.

I don't mind a bit of murder, but morally justifying it by the date you are doing it on inflames me.

[Tarja]

Is there really any excuse for unwanted pregnancies these days, with all the contraception available? E.g. I have the contraceptive implant in my arm and I also take pills (to balance out the hormones mostly, I turn into a psychopath with just the implant, but the point is I'm as baby-free as baby-free can be :D and I've never been pregnant). However, there are still cases where you're maybe unlucky enough to be the one in so many thousand who gets pregnant anyway whilst using sufficient contraception.

It becomes slightly barbaric when there are women getting abortions every other month just because they can't be arsed using a condom, but forcing women to keep children they don't want or are unable to care for which were the results of unfortunate circumstances (e.g getting pregnant whilst on the pill, being raped) leaves us with all of these neglected and unwanted children, all for the sake of 'morality'. This is worse than aborting the foetus nice and early, I think. Past viability, no, because they could survive outside of the mother after that age and are more or less normally developed children, being carried on the inside rather than outside in the mother's arms. I suppose I hold quite a callous view up to that time - the foetus is a potential human, but it isn't quite there yet, and isn't developed enough to be considered to be of the same value as a fully grown person. The mother is more important at this point.

I always felt that people who insisted on no abortion lacked empathy for the women involved, but I suppose some would say I lack empathy too. I think abortion should be kept legal, even though I never plan on using the service. If I ever find myself with an unplanned pregnancy, it will be a fluke. :D

...That was a longer reply than I had planned.

[Leliana]

The adcovates of abortion should see what they're talking about. Only "cells"?

http://www.internetschleuder.com/vorlagen/abtreibung.jpg

http://firstlightforum.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/abortion.jpg

http://www.chrismittler.de/images/abtreibung2_000.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7tPvRQQFGDY/SpKEolElxlI/AAAAAAAACaI/Snjo7DmQiGk/s400/abort7.jpg

http://uli.popps.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/abtreibung8wo.jpg

If you can't look at these "abiotic cluster of cells" then don't advocate murder! Most photos show abortions between the 8th and 12th week.

I'm outraged about the ignorance and lack of ethics of people. Abortion is the deliberate ripping to pieces of human beings. 24 people who picked "Yes": Shame on you!

[Joe McCarthy]

I used to carry signs with photos like those whilst protesting outside abortion mills.

[Leliana]

I used to carry signs with photos like those whilst protesting outside abortion mills.
I've been enaged in some anti-abortion demonstrations as well, within the framework of our activism circle of the local church. :) People can talk about the Catholic church as bad as they want but it's the last line of defense against the Zeitgeist and the endorsers of abortion here in Europe!

[Zephyr]

Is there really any excuse for unwanted pregnancies these days, with all the contraception available? E.g. I have the contraceptive implant in my arm and I also take pills (to balance out the hormones mostly, I turn into a psychopath with just the implant, but the point is I'm as baby-free as baby-free can be :D and I've never been pregnant). However, there are still cases where you're maybe unlucky enough to be the one in so many thousand who gets pregnant anyway whilst using sufficient contraception.

It becomes slightly barbaric when there are women getting abortions every other month just because they can't be arsed using a condom, but forcing women to keep children they don't want or are unable to care for which were the results of unfortunate circumstances (e.g getting pregnant whilst on the pill, being raped) leaves us with all of these neglected and unwanted children, all for the sake of 'morality'. Not even if it's the poorest couple, the most jobless mother. If she has no potential health problems nor carries a rape pregnancy, creating a new life should never be faced as moral question.

This over-sexualized society has completely lost its mind about the significance of creating life.

It's disturbing that in 2011, europeans have transformed their only way to defeat death (new life creation) in a war between hedonists and proselytes.


This is worse than aborting the foetus nice and early, I think. Past viability, no, because they could survive outside of the mother after that age and are more or less normally developed children, being carried on the inside rather than outside in the mother's arms. I suppose I hold quite a callous view up to that time - the foetus is a potential human,

Who has determined what is a potential human?


but it isn't quite there yet, and isn't developed enough to be considered to be of the same value as a fully grown person.

That's relative...


The mother is more important at this point.

It's only more important if her life is at stake.

[2DREZQ]

Good citizens of a functioning state (my definition of which includes the elevation and protection of the family unit) have an obligation to the state and to their culture to procreate, and to raise those children to be functioning members of their society. That is the proper function of the heterosexual family in society, in which the state has a vested interest.
Therefore: One could make an argument that abortion of a normal fetus is a crime against the state and against civilization.

[Volkodav]

Yes. Nobody should be forced to have a child they don't want.
If you dont f4ck around like a dog than you would not be forced to have a child or do abortion. :lightbul:

[Flintlocke]

When it comes to White babies I would say no, only under extreme circumstances such as rape or the child has some innate incurable disease.

For other races, STEP RIGHT UP FOLKS! Abortions on demand.

[Turkey]

The adcovates of abortion should see what they're talking about. Only "cells"?

http://www.internetschleuder.com/vorlagen/abtreibung.jpg

http://firstlightforum.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/abortion.jpg

http://www.chrismittler.de/images/abtreibung2_000.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7tPvRQQFGDY/SpKEolElxlI/AAAAAAAACaI/Snjo7DmQiGk/s400/abort7.jpg

http://uli.popps.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/abtreibung8wo.jpg

If you can't look at these "abiotic cluster of cells" then don't advocate murder! Most photos show abortions between the 8th and 12th week.

I'm outraged about the ignorance and lack of ethics of people. Abortion is the deliberate ripping to pieces of human beings. 24 people who picked "Yes": Shame on you!


This is exactly it. People are too flippant about it because they can't see it. If you don't want a baby, don't get pregnant. And if you do, just fucken have it. It's not as though there's more to life and the state will support you anyway.

At the least, there should be a law which forces women to look at aborted fetuses before they undergo the procedure. It's the only way to make it morally acceptable

Or suddenly, is this morally wrong to instill guilt if it's not racial guilt?

Another thing, how can a woman be a preservationist and then go and get an abortion? I mean have the abortion but at least have the decency to close your account on this site and stop bullshitting.

[Jake Featherston]

This is exactly it. People are too flippant about it because they can't see it. If you don't want a baby, don't get pregnant. And if you do, just fucken have it. It's not as though there's more to life and the state will support you anyway.

In the USA, not so much. There are homeless children living with their homeless parents, out on the street. But adoption is also an option. Abortion never should be one, despite our relatively lax social safety net.

[Turkey]

In the USA, not so much. There are homeless children living with their homeless parents, out on the street. But adoption is also an option. Abortion never should be one, despite our relatively lax social safety net.

It's funny how the sheeple work isn't it? the state won't support it in america so it's understandable to want abortions. Yet we in other countries live by the moral standard set by the american system, even though the difference in necessity is infinite.

The people who vote "yes" who live outside the States, double shame on you.

[Fortis in Arduis]

No, and I don't abort supportion either.

That's just as bad my view.

[jerney]

That's just politics and law. I'm not a court room or some mug at university. I'm just a guy on a preservation site with a decent bullshit detector.

I'd like everyone to be frank and refrain from Politically correct arguments here, because if I wanted to hear the generally considered opinion I'd watch 'A current affair' or go to a socialist meeting.

I don't mind a bit of murder, but morally justifying it by the date you are doing it on inflames me.

and it's just your opinion that a 7 week old embryo is a "baby"


The adcovates of abortion should see what they're talking about. Only "cells"?

http://www.internetschleuder.com/vorlagen/abtreibung.jpg

http://firstlightforum.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/abortion.jpg

http://www.chrismittler.de/images/abtreibung2_000.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7tPvRQQFGDY/SpKEolElxlI/AAAAAAAACaI/Snjo7DmQiGk/s400/abort7.jpg

http://uli.popps.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/abtreibung8wo.jpg

If you can't look at these "abiotic cluster of cells" then don't advocate murder! Most photos show abortions between the 8th and 12th week.

I'm outraged about the ignorance and lack of ethics of people. Abortion is the deliberate ripping to pieces of human beings. 24 people who picked "Yes": Shame on you!


I've seen plenty of these pictures and I have no problem looking at them. Except for the 2nd and 3rd pictures, I don't feel much of anything when viewing them. Those don't look like human babies to me and it's not the equivalent of aborting the fetuses which are shown in the 2nd and 3rd photos. (I also find it hard to believe those pictures are of fetuses aborted at 12 weeks along. Those look like at least late 2nd trimester abortions) edit: now that I read the caption on the first picture, it clearly states that it's a 12 week old fetus. The two fetuses below that picture are least five times larger and much farther along than 12 weeks. I can't say I feel very comfortable with late-term abortions or support them except in extreme cases.

[Balmung]

I support freedom of choice. I live in America afterall. It would be contradictory if i didn't.

[AussieScott]

I can't say I feel very comfortable with late-term abortions or support them except in extreme cases.


The only late term abortions I have heard of that would be ethical, are in isolated place where there is no medical technology and the woman's life is in danger, from the birth...

[Boudica]

I think that people who use abortion as some form of birth control and have tons of them should have been aborted themselves.

[Jake Featherston]

and it's just your opinion that a 7 week old embryo is a "baby"

Yes, but its an opinion based on certain biological realities ie., if a seven-week embryo isn't violently extirpated, it is an organism (with an individually unique human DNA code) that eventually does become a baby. Killing human fetal organisms that are developing into babies, isn't all that different from just plain killing babies.

[jerney]

Yes, but its an opinion based on certain biological realities ie., if a seven-week embryo isn't violently extirpated, it is an organism (with an individually unique human DNA code) that eventually does become a baby. Killing human fetal organisms that are developing into babies, isn't all that different from just plain killing babies.

Then ban birth control too since it also prevents the development of fetal organisms.

[Joe McCarthy]

I support freedom of choice. I live in America afterall. It would be contradictory if i didn't.

You have a rather ahistorical, post-60s conception of what it means to be an American. Freedom in the American, Puritan influenced sense, has never meant an unbridled license to do whatever. That's more like what we could expect in Sweden.

[Hevneren]

You have a rather ahistorical, post-60s conception of what it means to be an American. Freedom in the American, Puritan influenced sense, has never meant an unbridled license to do whatever. That's more like what we could expect in Sweden.

Well, in the US teenage pregnancy rates are sky high (highest in the West), the homicide rate is the highest in the West, the child abuse/maltreatment rate is the highest in the West, HIV/AIDS prevalence rate is higher than in most European countries, cocaine use is the highest in the West and most of the rest of the world, the US has the largest porn industry in the world, the lobbyism and cronyism of a corrupt government and blood sucking corporations, and a US that worships violence and murder through the media and endless war mongering. Perhaps if you'd look inwards at your own rotten, corrupt snake pit of a nation, you wouldn't be writing ignorant bullshit like this.

[Phil75231]

I support the legal right to have abortion, though personally I'm against it in ordinary circumstances (i.e. i think abortion for mere convenience's sake is unethical, even more so for sex selection - but i see no way around these, so i grudgingly accept its legal standing)

[The Lawspeaker]

Well, in the US teenage pregnancy rates are sky high (highest in the West), the homicide rate is the highest in the West, the child abuse/maltreatment rate is the highest in the West, HIV/AIDS prevalence rate is higher than in most European countries, cocaine use is the highest in the West and most of the rest of the world, the US has the largest porn industry in the world, the lobbyism and cronyism of a corrupt government and blood sucking corporations, and a US that worships violence and murder through the media and endless war mongering. Perhaps if you'd look inwards at your own rotten, corrupt snake pit of a nation, you wouldn't be writing ignorant bullshit like this.
And that explains, in a nutshell, why American cultural influence (either more or any) is about the very last thing that we need.

[Curtis24]

Abortion is one of the best things that's happened to society, sorry to say but its the truth. It may possibly be responsible for a thirty-year steady decline in violent crime.

[Phil75231]

You think this topic is controversial..try making your way through THIS!
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41t7j6YExoL._SS500_.jpg

[Jake Featherston]

Then ban birth control too since it also prevents the development of fetal organisms.

Not having sex every time one is ovulating also prevents the development of fetal organisms. Should that be illegal too? Abortion, however, is about the active killing of such organisms, which is, at best, very similar to murder.

[Jake Featherston]

Abortion is one of the best things that's happened to society, sorry to say but its the truth. It may possibly be responsible for a thirty-year steady decline in violent crime.

Kill 40 million gestating humans, so that there can be 50,000 fewer rapes per year? GREAT SUCCESS!!!

Oh, and I'm 41, and the media keeps telling me the crime rate has been going down since 1985 or so, but nothing I've seen indicates those media reports are actually true. Things just seem to be getting worse and worse, but the media cheerfully assures us they're getting better and better.

[Balmung]

Well one good thing about America is we won't get arrested for something as little as putting up a Nazi salute or speaking our opinion about a race or religion.


You have a rather ahistorical, post-60s conception of what it means to be an American. Freedom in the American, Puritan influenced sense, has never meant an unbridled license to do whatever. That's more like what we could expect in Sweden.

We are not flipping puritans!

I think you wanted to use Netherlands instead of Norway. Thats the nation with the laws many western nations would find questionable. Scandinavia's real problem is feminism. Norway with its forced gender equality. Forcing corporations to gender balance.

[The Lawspeaker]

Well one good thing about America is we won't get arrested for something as little as putting up a Nazi salute or speaking our opinion about a race or religion.
Alright then. That's one good thing about America but America doesn't have the historical baggage European countries have.




We are not flipping puritans!
I always find it somewhat fascinating that Americans are so obsessed with family values (or at least their strange definition of it --while not caring much for healthcare or childcare or proper social security: we are family-friendly values) but continues to be the world's biggest producer of pornography.... :rolleyes2:




I think you wanted to use Netherlands instead of Norway. Thats the nation with the laws many western nations would find questionable.
I take it you're referring to same-sex marriages, cannabis, abortion and prostitution ?

Same-sex marriages ? I am not a huge fan of it myself. Blame parliament. It's not like they granted us a referendum.

Well thanks to the cannabis legislation our percentage of drug users is not even half of the percentage of American users (they are actually the biggest customers together with the French.. which is somewhat amusing given the fact that France is pretty hardcore on drugs and has a real drug problem).

Abortion: Roe vs. Wade was in 1973. The Netherlands legalised abortion per November 1, 1984. The number of abortion cases in the Netherlands is also relatively low compared to America and let's not even go into teenage pregnancies which are a mere fraction of what is taking place in the United States.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/Map-world-teenage-biological-mothers2002.svg
Live births per 1000 women 15-19 years old, 2002. UNFPA, State of World Population 2003.


And when it comes to prostitution. Brings down the number of rape cases, I suppose. I don't support the current policy as I believe that only Dutch women should be allowed to "work" and that they should be unionised in order to stamp out criminals.

[Balmung]

Alright then. That's one good thing about America but America doesn't have the historical baggage European countries have.



I always find it somewhat fascinated that Americans are so obsessed with family values (or at least their strange definition of it) but continue to be the world's biggest producer of porn.... :rolleyes2:



I take it you're referring to same-sex marriages, cannabis, abortion and prostitution ?

Same-sex marriages ? I am not a huge fan of it myself. Blame parliament. It's not like we were asked to vote in favour or against it.

Well thanks to the cannabis legislation our percentage of drug users is not even half of the percentage of American users (they are actually the biggest customers together with the French.. which is somewhat amusing given the fact that France is pretty hardcore on drugs and has a real drug problem).

Abortion: Roe vs. Wade was in 1973. The Netherlands legalised abortion per November 1, 1984.


And when it comes to prostitution. Brings down the number of rape cases, I suppose. I don't support the current policy as I believe that only Dutch women should be allowed to "work" and that they should be unionised in order to stamp out criminals.




I didn't say i was against your laws. I think some laws work in some nations and in some they don't because of cultural differences and its no secret we have far more diversity than practicaly all western nations. It would be extremely harder to implement such liberal laws for the whole of the US. The U.S is a bit different. We are all so close yet still so culturaly far from each other. Our states are like their own small countries with completely different mentalities and ways of handling things. Some of our laws reflect that.

Some of the northern areas have legalized same sex marriage. But then you have a state like Indiana that allows 12 year olds to serve in an adult prison. Just a small example of how different Americans trully are from each other.

I was just correcting Joe that Netherlands would be a stronger contender for the title he gave Norway.

[Leliana]

I've seen plenty of these pictures and I have no problem looking at them. Except for the 2nd and 3rd pictures, I don't feel much of anything when viewing them.
Then you have no heart, have an own abortion history or you're hardened. :( It's incomprehensible that people look at such photos and feel nothing. I can't believe that people are so cold and clinical.

Those don't look like human babies to me
They're working organisms! Their heart beats, their muscles flex, their brain works, their blood flows, their metabolism is active and their cells grow.
now that I read the caption on the first picture, it clearly states that it's a 12 week old fetus.
80% of all abortions are carried out in the late first trimester or at the beginning of the second trimester which is exactly the span of weeks depicted on the captioned photo. You need to lie if you continue to say that they aren't human, aren't persons and aren't alive.

The heart begins to beat between the fifth and sixth week of pregnancy.

[Hevneren]

Scandinavia's real problem is feminism. Norway with its forced gender equality. Forcing corporations to gender balance.

No, our real problem is immigration and having NATO and the EU sucking up our resources, while solving crime isn't quite as important as building asylum centres and opera houses or politicians granting themselves higher salaries.

[Joe McCarthy]

We are not flipping puritans!

I think you wanted to use Netherlands instead of Norway. Thats the nation with the laws many western nations would find questionable. Scandinavia's real problem is feminism. Norway with its forced gender equality. Forcing corporations to gender balance.

I said Sweden, not Norway, but in any case both you and Hevneren seemed to have misunderstood my post.

And while it's true we're not exactly Puritans (any longer, or at least to the extent we once were), we're certainly not the lax Swedes or Dutch. To the extent we have lost our way it's been a recent development, and in key ways a product of the sort of immigrant culture you yourself are representative of.

[rhiannon]

Well, in the US teenage pregnancy rates are sky high (highest in the West), the homicide rate is the highest in the West, the child abuse/maltreatment rate is the highest in the West, HIV/AIDS prevalence rate is higher than in most European countries, cocaine use is the highest in the West and most of the rest of the world, the US has the largest porn industry in the world, the lobbyism and cronyism of a corrupt government and blood sucking corporations, and a US that worships violence and murder through the media and endless war mongering. Perhaps if you'd look inwards at your own rotten, corrupt snake pit of a nation, you wouldn't be writing ignorant bullshit like this.

Ouch, Hev....that was harsh:p Even if you are right....still....not all of us Americans are that fucked up;)

[research_centre]

Ouch, Hev....that was harsh:p Even if you are right....still....not all of us Americans are that fucked up;)

I agree. I am not seeing is a breakdown of how many were Amerindian and Negroid teenagers.

[Joe McCarthy]

Ouch, Hev....that was harsh:p Even if you are right....still....not all of us Americans are that fucked up;)

It was mostly just irrelevant as it didn't actually address what I said.

It was red meat for Europeans and liberal Americans though.

[jerney]

Then you have no heart, have an own abortion history or you're hardened. :( It's incomprehensible that people look at such photos and feel nothing. I can't believe that people are so cold and clinical.

Well, thanks for the assumption, but no I've never had an abortion. I also would never put myself in a position where I would need to get one, but it doesn't mean I can understand why some women get them. If you want to call it "hardened" then so be it, but I call it responsible and realistic. Children should be raised with fathers, by people who can financially support them, who can emotionally support them, who are responsible enough to raise them properly and make them productive citizens, etc. etc. Clearly these people who abort feel they don't fit into one or more of those categories. It's not for me to question their judgments.


They're working organisms! Their heart beats, their muscles flex, their brain works, their blood flows, their metabolism is active and their cells grow.


So is this: http://www.swotti.com/tmp/swotti/cacheYM9YBIB3AXROB3V0IGEGZMFJZQ==T3ROZXJZLU90AGVYC W==/imgBorn%20Without%20a%20Face4.jpg

I certainly would never give birth to something like that.


80% of all abortions are carried out in the late first trimester or at the beginning of the second trimester which is exactly the span of weeks depicted on the captioned photo. You need to lie if you continue to say that they aren't human, aren't persons and aren't alive.


Almost all abortions are performed before 12 weeks. We can play semantics all you want, but it's your opinion that it's a "baby" and it's my opinion that it's not and that's clearly not going to change. There is more to being human than simple biological processes and development.

[Leliana]

Well, thanks for the assumption, but no I've never had an abortion. I also would never put myself in a position where I would need to get one, but it doesn't mean I can understand why some women get them. If you want to call it "hardened" then so be it, but I call it responsible and realistic. Children should be raised with fathers, by people who can financially support them, who can emotionally support them, who are responsible enough to raise them properly and make them productive citizens, etc. etc. Clearly these people who abort feel they don't fit into one or more of those categories.
Pregnancy isn't a go / no-go type decision! There's not only "Bear it and rear it" or "Abort it". If people feel that they can't have a child on grounds of the reasons you mentioning then there's the possibility of adoption. Do you know how many couples are biologically unable to have children, who're impotent?

So is this: http://www.swotti.com/tmp/swotti/cacheYM9YBIB3AXROB3V0IGEGZMFJZQ==T3ROZXJZLU90AGVYC W==/imgBorn%20Without%20a%20Face4.jpg

I certainly would never give birth to something like that.
You're taking the fire escape by hinting at grossly deformed and disabled children. How large is the percentage of such sad beings in relation to all realized abortion? Way below 5%! Gravely disabled children are an exceptional case and not an argument for the legalization of abortion. :(

Do I think that such babies are disabled? Yes I do. Do I think that such babies are ugly and deformed? Yes I do. But do I deny them the recognition as human beings, as individual persons independent from their disability? No I don't. They are ugly, they are disabled, but they are humans and not a trashy heap of abiotic cells ready to shred and flushing down the toilet.

Almost all abortions are performed before 12 weeks. We can play semantics all you want, but it's your opinion that it's a "baby" and it's my opinion that it's not and that's clearly not going to change. There is more to being human than simple biological processes and development.
And it's at you to decide where the border between a baby and a heap of cells is? You can decide that for yourself but you shouldn't have the right to decide it for someone else. Your belly belongs to you but the growing life in your belly doesn't belong to you, it's not your property.

[Zephyr]

I'm truly happy to know that there are still people in northern Europe who have this clarity of thoughts and a truly sensible opinion on human life.

I was writing a very similar post, but it was not as well written as Leliana's.

[Stars Down To Earth]

Do I willingly support the act of killing a late-term fetus? No.
Do I understand that reality sometimes takes precedence over ideals? Yes.

What i find horrendous is when women get late-term abortions because they got knocked up in the first place and do it as emergency birth control. A late-term elective abortion is basically a homicide. There's nothing I respect less than someone who'd kill a family member, even a potential family member. The reasons given (such as "the child would interfere with my career") disgust me to the core.

However, I do completely support abortion in the case of rape, incest, a deformed child, miscegenation, and physical danger to the mother.


And it's at you to decide where the border between a baby and a heap of cells is?
I know there's no objective answer to when your "human soul" begins, but if we agree that a sperm cell isn't a person and an ovary isn't a person, and the fusion of the two doesn't spark any immediate difference, then early-term abortions literally are nothing but an irresponsible form of birth control. It's the late-term abortions of healthy European children that I am against.

Early-term fetuses aren't recognisably human. They lack consciousness or souls. The fetus is pure potential for a future child. Now it's sad if a woman chooses to terminate that potential, but it's not a moral problem. It's no worse than if she made the decision to use birth control pills, IMO.


Do I think that such babies are disabled? Yes I do. Do I think that such babies are ugly and deformed? Yes I do. But do I deny them the recognition as human beings, as individual persons independent from their disability? No I don't. They are ugly, they are disabled, but they are humans and not a trashy heap of abiotic cells ready to shred and flushing down the toilet.
I do not consider them human. They are abnormal heaps of cells in my eyes. And even if you keep them alive in this world, their lives will be an endless dull misery - both for the parents and their badly deformed offspring. If my girlfriend gave birth to that, knowing how the child would turn out to be, and wanted to keep it with us at home, I would definitely leave her. In fact, I'd question her sanity.

After all, your children are your posterity. And a large part of why you love your son or daughter is because the child shares so much in common with you. This love for your closest family is also the love of your DNA, and it's the source of racial prejudice - after all, a white woman has stronger motherly feelings for a white child that resembles her own, than for an African. Humanitarian sympathy also works that way - I have more in common with any random human child than I do with an animal, so I'd naturally value them more (I actually value many humans less than wild animals, but that's for another thread. :P ) Even animal babies are cute to humans, because they remind us of human babies. Although this "hierarchy of empathy" starts with mother and child, a man can also have these feelings in a more vague way. It's all about similarities and how far you're able to extend compassion.

If I impregnate my girlfriend, the child will obviously be "mine" on a genetic level. But on a memetic human level, I have much more in common with an African gangster than I do with a Down's Syndrome mutant or with the hideous abomination that Jerney posted. I could never, ever view that warped creature as my son or daughter.

[Tolleson]

Your belly belongs to you but the growing life in your belly doesn't belong to you, it's not your property.

This is the most fundamental statement presented in this thread. The crux of the discussion can be defined by one question: "When does life begin?".

It is a matter of opinion not a point of debate.

Those that feel life begins at conception are disgusted with those that do not hold that opinion. Those that feel life begins later in the pregnancy or even not until birth are shaking theirs heads at those that do not.

That is what makes the human condition so fantastic. We are not going to agree on every topic and some very fierce debates will ensue.

Lastly, I have seen that these types of threads always end up being a shit show because some people are trying to change peoples opinions. While I appreciate the zest and the zeal on both sides, it only becomes a perpetual circle jerk.

Agree to disagree or debate to your heart's content. I'm going back to my coffee and paper. Carry on. Cheers. :coffee:

[HelterSkelter]

I support abortion! It means birth was NOT necessary.

Necessary? How can you say birth wasn't necessary as if it was some kind of cosmetic surgery?

[Supreme American]

You are too extreme lagergeld,all this talk of "aborting all mongrels" belongs at stormfront. We are better than those mouth breathing neo-nazis,every statement you make like that pushes people away from the cause of preservation.

The apricity needs a reputation of intelligence and reasoning,not this "kill all niggers and dump the aborted mongrel nigglets into the trashcan!" mentality.

If not....then the apricity will just end up as another clone of stormfront and VNN.

Too extreme?

Your argument after that silly statement is akin to saying, "Hitler's government started the first anti-smoking campaign, therefore anyone against smoking is a Nazi."

And if people can't differentiate between preservation as a concept to a person saying something they disagree with, then they're a bit stupid, and probably have inhaled their value system from the television.

[Supreme American]

So is this: http://www.swotti.com/tmp/swotti/cacheYM9YBIB3AXROB3V0IGEGZMFJZQ==T3ROZXJZLU90AGVYC W==/imgBorn%20Without%20a%20Face4.jpg

I certainly would never give birth to something like that.

Me neither. Plenty of testing on the fetus is done, if I were pregnant and found out an abnormal result, I'd abort immediately. It's not a viable fetus, and frankly allowing a child like that to be born is pretty cruel anyway. Imagine the suffering the kid in that pic goes through. If you look closely, looks like a trach of some kind. Kid can't even breathe on his own. There are times when life-sustaining medicine is just flatly cruel, and this is one of those times. Nature has mechanisms to abort the defective, and they shouldn't get in the way.

[rhiannon]

So is this: http://www.swotti.com/tmp/swotti/cacheYM9YBIB3AXROB3V0IGEGZMFJZQ==T3ROZXJZLU90AGVYC W==/imgBorn%20Without%20a%20Face4.jpg


Oh my God, that poor little child. :( I can only imagine the hell her life is going to be......my heart breaks for her.

:cry2:icon_sad:

[Turkey]

http://www.swotti.com/tmp/swotti/cacheYM9YBIB3AXROB3V0IGEGZMFJZQ==T3ROZXJZLU90AGVYC W==/imgBorn%20Without%20a%20Face4.jpg




The people who hold back euthanasia are evil.

Why is it's head wrecked but it's body ok?

[Sally]

The people who hold back euthanasia are evil.

Why is it's head wrecked but it's body ok?

It's because Treacher-Collins syndrome is a cranio-facial disorder that affects the proper formation of the skull, cheek and jaw bones.

[jerney]

Me neither. Plenty of testing on the fetus is done, if I were pregnant and found out an abnormal result, I'd abort immediately. It's not a viable fetus, and frankly allowing a child like that to be born is pretty cruel anyway. Imagine the suffering the kid in that pic goes through. If you look closely, looks like a trach of some kind. Kid can't even breathe on his own. There are times when life-sustaining medicine is just flatly cruel, and this is one of those times. Nature has mechanisms to abort the defective, and they shouldn't get in the way.

Not to mention that child has probably gone through dozens of surgeries already and will need dozens more as she grows older. That just seems unnecessarily cruel. Although if I remember their story correctly, the parents proceeded with the pregnancy because the doctors noticed an abnormality, but thought it would only be born with a cleft lip. Instead, she came out looking like this:

http://www.homeworking.ws/children/juliannaatbirth.jpg

[Hevneren]

Ouch, Hev....that was harsh:p Even if you are right....still....not all of us Americans are that fucked up;)

Well, I give as good as I get. ;)

Frankly, I get tired of Americans like McCarthy sticking his nose into our business and then thinking himself justified to pick our societies apart and judge us. All I did was to do exactly what Americans like him do on a regular basis. If the Joe McCarthy's of the world learned to clean up the mess in their own backyards and minded their own business, rather than talk down to others and judge them, that would be quite an improvement.

[rhiannon]

Well, I give as good as I get. ;)

Frankly, I get tired of Americans like McCarthy sticking his nose into our business and then thinking himself justified to pick our societies apart and judge us. All I did was to do exactly what Americans like him do on a regular basis. If the Joe McCarthy's of the world learned to clean up the mess in their own backyards and minded their own business, rather than talk down to others and judge them, that would be quite an improvement.

I sort of figured as much. As long as you realize that some of us Colonial types don't make it a practice to engage in blanket assumptions about happenings in other nations. It really makes us look bad when we do that.:D

[Hevneren]

It was mostly just irrelevant as it didn't actually address what I said.

It was red meat for Europeans and liberal Americans though.

I responded to some nonsense you wrote about Scandinavia, implying we had no rules or were liberal to the extreme. I just pointed out your mindblowing hypocrisy, seeing as the US is the porn capitol of the world and Western "teenage pregnancy champions". Of course, there's the fact that every $20 bill in the country has traces of cocaine on it. Last but not least, let's not forget that your Hollywood film industry produces incredibly violent, sexually explicit and perverse films.

By the way, if you want to stick to the topic of abortion, the US is on par with Western Europe on abortion statistics, and the American South has higher abortion rates than most European countries.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/wrjp334pd.html

[Leliana]

Not to mention that child has probably gone through dozens of surgeries already and will need dozens more as she grows older. That just seems unnecessarily cruel. Although if I remember their story correctly, the parents proceeded with the pregnancy because the doctors noticed an abnormality, but thought it would only be born with a cleft lip. Instead, she came out looking like this:
Your pro-argument for the unneeded and egoistic abortion of millions of healthy children in the Western world per year are the very few extraordinary appearances like that poor person with treacher-collins syndrome? Like "0,5% aborted children would look deformed so the other 99,5% don't matter anymore"?

You don't want to sell that as an argument, don't you? That's the cheap fire exit used by people who have no convincing argument left besides their own egoism, visible in statements like "I abort because it's no life and my belly belongs to me". :(

[Waidewut]

The only reason of pro-abortion I can think of is the situation of a pregnant woman having a disease/pathology that can cause severe health issues and death if her fetus is kept. Then I can somehow understand the motive.

[Zephyr]

I'm still completely astounded in dismay with this comparison...



So is this: http://www.swotti.com/tmp/swotti/cacheYM9YBIB3AXROB3V0IGEGZMFJZQ==T3ROZXJZLU90AGVYC W==/imgBorn%20Without%20a%20Face4.jpg

I certainly would never give birth to something like that.

I'm sure no one here says the opposite, for the sake of God!

This is not about sparing suffering, not about mercy, it's about why abortion is allowed on demand without a strong reason like that!

[rhiannon]

I responded to some nonsense you wrote about Scandinavia, implying we had no rules or were liberal to the extreme. I just pointed out your mindblowing hypocrisy, seeing as the US is the porn capitol of the world and Western "teenage pregnancy champions". Of course, there's the fact that every $20 bill in the country has traces of cocaine on it. Last but not least, let's not forget that your Hollywood film industry produces incredibly violent, sexually explicit and perverse films.

By the way, if you want to stick to the topic of abortion, the US is on par with Western Europe on abortion statistics, and the American South has higher abortion rates than most European countries.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/wrjp334pd.html

Hev, google "porn capital of the world" and you will see I was not bullshitting people on here when I mentioned that I grew up in the porn capital of the world....LOL! Gotta love the Valley.

I also think abortions are more common here than in Europe as a rule, which makes sense given that our teen pregnancy rates are also higher.

[YellowRose]

In general, no. I do not support abortion except under certain circumstances.

I believe a woman should ONLY have a choice if it is putting her or the baby in danger or in rape cases (and I mean rape in all situations).

If you do not want a child, get on birth control and take caution and use protection while having sex. Be responsible.

When I was younger and in high school, I knew a few girls that had gotten more than one abortion before they turned 18 (We were not friends, but I knew them by mutual friends). It made me so angry! I do not believe we should be allowed to create life so freely and willingly take the life of an unborn child. Not to mention, there are so many couples out there that cannot even begin to imagine the precious moment of hearing your child's heart beat because they are unable to conceive a child of their own and would give anything for that feeling... why not just give a child up for adoption?

I am fully supportive of adoption. I would much rather a young teen girl go through with a pregnancy so she can see that there can be a consequence to sex.

[Rafael Passoni]

No.

[bvnny]

No, in most cases it's unjustifiable + I'm not pro-abortion in any case, but... even tho I wouldn't encourage anyone to go through an abortion at any case (that's what I meant with "I'm not pro-abortion in any case"), I believe someone in a life threatening situation should have the right to get an abortion, as self-defense.

[Flub]

Yes.

[sioned]

I fully support abortion for half breeds, niggers, mudslims... the less around of them, the better it is.

[axel.aleman]

Only in three causes: violation, save the life of the mother and severe genetic malformation

[Family Man]

NO! NO! NO!

[Tenma de Pegasus]

No

Mostly not

Like 90% not

But I support life

[Nausevar]

I don't like it but I think it can be considered as eugenic since it selects out negative traits like impulsiveness, stupidity, etc. In general women who will ask for an abortion are not the best women. People who don't know how to use contraceptives, and/or who can't raise a child and/or don't want to are evolutionarily maladaptive.
Also, in some countries abortion rates are disproportionately represented by racial minorities. In the US legal abortions are a very good thing from the civilizaitonal POV. Imagine how many feral blacks would be out there, some southern states would probably be 50% black without abortions.

[Rædwald]

I would agree with abortion on the condition that a man would also be able to nullify financial responsibility for a birth he also didn't want.

[Ayetooey]

No I don't.

[alnortedelsur]

Only in extreme circumstances, like if the life of the mother is in danger, or if the baby is going to be born with a very serious illness.

In case of rape is debatable, because the unborn baby is not guilty of anything, and still can be given on adoption.

Free abortion on demand is a social aberration. Irresponsible and promiscuous women, who easily open their legs to anyone, and then don't wanna have a baby with banal excuses like that "they are not prepared", or just "don't wanna spoil their figure", should not be allowed to abort a healthy baby for their own commodity and not wanting to face any consequences for their irresponsibility. Is absurd (and more when contraceptive methods are widely available) that the taxpayer has to pay the abortions of such irresponsible women to save them from the consequences that they earned themselves, and to end the life of healthy unborn babies, and more in countries with problems of low fertility rates.

If they don't wanna be mothers, the can always put them on adoption, but they at least deserve to go through pregnancy and delivery.

[Ellethwyn]

I don't really support it, not after a heartbeat has been detected.

Some people may think women don't really use abortion as a means of birth control, but I have a relative who told me years ago that she has had 6 abortions, and I think she has had more since, but she ended up needing a hysterectomy at 50, because all the abortions caused some health problems for her. I am disgusted by her. She is a professional, who you'd think is a very smart woman, but her use of abortion as birth control is evil and stupid.

[E1b1b]

All abortions could of been avoided by anal