View Full Version : NW Croat vs Czech-Slovak members PCA
Kajkavian-speaking Croats plot very close to Czechs and Slovaks, just somewhat more south of them, which is really interesting considering how they don't border at all and there is Hungary, Austria and Slovenia between them.
https://i.imgur.com/nWIWjKe.png
Therefore together with Slovenes they should be seen as more of an extension of western Slavs in the south, than south Slavs proper.
CommonSense
12-02-2021, 01:13 PM
Even their linguistic classification as 'South Slavs' is kind of dubious to be honest.
Perunovsin
12-02-2021, 01:16 PM
Even their linguistic classification as 'South Slavs' is kind of dubious to be honest.
The fuck are you talking about?
CommonSense
12-02-2021, 01:19 PM
The fuck are you talking about?
Slovene/Kajkavian are for the most part unintelligible. They're more like transitional dialects towards West Slavic.
Perunovsin
12-02-2021, 01:24 PM
Slovene/Kajkavian are for the most part unintelligible. They're more like transitional dialects towards West Slavic.
Ok, are you excluding the islanders, too, then? Or some bosniaks and serbs with vast turkish word usage? What part of the brain exactly makes you write this?
Slovene/Kajkavian are for the most part unintelligible. They're more like transitional dialects towards West Slavic.
Can a Standard Croatian speaker get by in Slovenia and vice versa (a Slovene speaker in Croatia)?
Perunovsin
12-02-2021, 01:27 PM
Can a Standard Croatian speaker get by in Slovenia and vice versa (a Slovene speaker in Croatia)?
No way
CommonSense
12-02-2021, 01:28 PM
Can a Standard Croatian speaker get by in Slovenia and vice versa (a Slovene speaker in Croatia)?
A standard Croatian speaker could get by in Ljubljana because there are a lot of immigrants from ex-Yu and tourists, so the locals are more familiar with Shtokavian (Serbo-Croatian). But the local Croats in a place like Zadar or Osijek wouldn't be able to understand spoken Slovene.
A standard Croatian speaker could get by in Ljubljana because there are a lot of immigrants from ex-Yu and tourists, so the locals are more familiar with Shtokavian (Serbo-Croatian). But the local Croats in a place like Zadar or Osijek wouldn't be able to understand spoken Slovene.
But those dialects along the border with Slovenia are more like Slovene? I mean it's a such a small territory, why would they be radically different from each other?
Even their linguistic classification as 'South Slavs' is kind of dubious to be honest.
Yes, but I was thinking they are maybe rather artificially West Slavic like than actual displaced west Slavs. You know why?
Slovenes and northern Croats are strongy R1a Z280, while western Slavs are strongly R1a M458.
So I'd rather say Slovenes and north Croats are mix of east Slavic tribes, but with some notable Celtic-German like element which made them similar to west Slavs plus their Balkanic influence is low.
Another thing that complicates the matter is that if my friend results are representative, than northern chakavian speakers are also not far from west Slavs and in Kajkavian/Slovenian cluster. As far as I know, chakavian is not similar to west Slavic languages but it has some very arhaic old Slavic features that are resembling eastern Slavic.
Can a Standard Croatian speaker get by in Slovenia and vice versa (a Slovene speaker in Croatia)?
I understand quite a bit of Slovenian, but that's probably only because I live close to Slovenia and been there quite a few times. I think if I wasn't exposed to Slovenian, I would understand better Macedonian language for example.
I understand quite a bit of Slovenian, but that's probably only because I live close to Slovenia and been there quite a few times. I think if I wasn't exposed to Slovenian, I would understand better Macedonian language for example.
Why specifically Macedonian of all? And not Bulgarian for example.
Why specifically Macedonian of all? And not Bulgarian for example.
Because Macedonian is significantly more intelligible with standard Serbo-Croatian than Bulgarian is. And that is because Bulgarian standard is based on eastern Bulgarian dialect, which is further removed from Serbo-Croatian.
Perunovsin
12-02-2021, 02:29 PM
Because Macedonian is significantly more intelligible with standard Serbo-Croatian than Bulgarian is. And that is because Bulgarian standard is based on eastern Bulgarian dialect, which is further removed from Serbo-Croatian.
Damn you got skills
rothaer
12-02-2021, 03:35 PM
Another thing that complicates the matter is that if my friend results are representative, than northern chakavian speakers are also not far from west Slavs and in Kajkavian/Slovenian cluster. As far as I know, chakavian is not similar to west Slavic languages but it has some very arhaic old Slavic features that are resembling eastern Slavic.
As for the topic whether Shtokavian, Kajkavian and Chakavian were related to particular tribes:
A dialect means for sure an earlier common contact of the speakers in question. But as for the lingusitic "ancestry" of these dialects I've hat a look for the "what?"-word in other languages. Interesting is that you do have both "shto" and "kakov" (the latter is obviously related to the Kajkavian and the Chakavian "what?"-word) in Russian, see pic:
https://i.imgur.com/sbEfG9X.jpg
To me this indicates that it's not about real language differences, but just more about what word usage has developed to be common, the shto or the kak word. Such a thing might have developed comparably late and must NOT be linked to from where the Slavic settlers of a particular later spoken dialect initially came from. (Other traits of the dialects may give hints for origins, but I think, that the "waht?"-word does not.)
Alenka
12-02-2021, 03:57 PM
As for the topic whether Shtokavian, Kajkavian and Chakavian were related to particular tribes:
A dialect means for sure an earlier common contact of the speakers in question. But as for the lingusitic "ancestry" of these dialects I've hat a look for the "what?"-word in other languages. Interesting is that you do have both "shto" and "kakov" (the latter is obviously related to the Kajkavian and the Chakavian "what?"-word) in Russian, see pic:
To me this indicates that it's not about real language differences, but just more about what word usage has developed to be common, the shto or the kak word. Such a thing might have developed comparably late and must NOT be linked to from where the Slavic settlers of a particular later spoken dialect initially came from. (Other traits of the dialects may give hints for origins, but I think, that the "waht?"-word does not.)
No, kaj is derived from *kъjь (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/k%D1%8Aj%D1%8C).
In Russian it exists as кой (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9#Russian), archaic word that can mean either how, which, who, or what; dependng on the context.
In Shtokavian, this root evolved into koji (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/koji#Serbo-Croatian), with the meaning which, while in Kajkavian it evolved into kaj (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kaj#Serbo-Croatian), with the meaning what.
rothaer
12-02-2021, 04:23 PM
No, kaj is derived from *kъjь (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/k%D1%8Aj%D1%8C).
In Russian it exists as кой (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9#Russian), archaic word that can mean eiter how, which, who, or what; dependng on the context.
In Shtokavian, this root evolved into koji (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/koji#Serbo-Croatian), with the meaning which, while in Kajkavian it evolved into kaj (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kaj#Serbo-Croatian), with the meaning what.
Uups, a little bit embarrassing for me then... I maybe was too quick after finding also this quote: "Kajkavian kak (how) and tak (so) are exactly like their Russian cognates and Prekmurje Slovene compared to Shtokavian, Chakavian, and standard Slovene kako and tako." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kajkavian ) Okay, "what" and "how" are different words indeed, though from the same semantic family I'd say, as also is suggested by "kakov" seemingly also getting to mean what in Russian. But yep, nothing to defend and thanks for the correction.
So there was a same root that developed into koji in Shtokavian and kaj in Kajkavian. If I get you right, it's also not about a real absence of that word in the respective other dialect, but seemingly a question of how the usage developed. Is there any time estimate for that development? And what does koji mean in Shtokavian?
Insuperable
12-02-2021, 04:24 PM
As for the topic whether Shtokavian, Kajkavian and Chakavian were related to particular tribes:
A dialect means for sure an earlier common contact of the speakers in question. But as for the lingusitic "ancestry" of these dialects I've hat a look for the "what?"-word in other languages. Interesting is that you do have both "shto" and "kakov" (the latter is obviously related to the Kajkavian and the Chakavian "what?"-word) in Russian, see pic:
https://i.imgur.com/sbEfG9X.jpg
To me this indicates that it's not about real language differences, but just more about what word usage has developed to be common, the shto or the kak word. Such a thing might have developed comparably late and must NOT be linked to from where the Slavic settlers of a particular later spoken dialect initially came from. (Other traits of the dialects may give hints for origins, but I think, that the "waht?"-word does not.)
Differences between the dialactes are a lot bigger than the 'what' usage using kaj, ča or što. It is just that dialactes were named after the usage of 'what'.
As for the topic whether Shtokavian, Kajkavian and Chakavian were related to particular tribes:
A dialect means for sure an earlier common contact of the speakers in question. But as for the lingusitic "ancestry" of these dialects I've hat a look for the "what?"-word in other languages. Interesting is that you do have both "shto" and "kakov" (the latter is obviously related to the Kajkavian and the Chakavian "what?"-word) in Russian, see pic:
https://i.imgur.com/sbEfG9X.jpg
To me this indicates that it's not about real language differences, but just more about what word usage has developed to be common, the shto or the kak word. Such a thing might have developed comparably late and must NOT be linked to from where the Slavic settlers of a particular later spoken dialect initially came from. (Other traits of the dialects may give hints for origins, but I think, that the "waht?"-word does not.)
Kakov is practically the same as kakoj, both mean which (welch) and kak means how (wie).
But those dialects along the border with Slovenia are more like Slovene? I mean it's a such a small territory, why would they be radically different from each other?
Slovenian itself is not uniform btw. Actually very far from that.
"There are 46 different dialects in Slovenia"
On account of only 2.3 million people speaking the language, the 46 dialects of Slovenian language, often classifies Slovene as the most diverse Slavic Language. Slovenian dialects are categorized into seven regional groups: Carinthian, Upper Carniolan, Lower Carniolan, Littoral, Rovte, Styrian, and Pannonian. Sometimes dialects can be so different from one other, that it is hard for people from different parts of Slovenia to understand each other. The diversity of the Slovenian language is well captured in a Slovene proverb “Vsaka vas ima svoj glas “, meaning “every village has its own voice.”
https://theculturetrip.com/europe/slovenia/articles/9-fascinating-facts-about-the-slovenian-language/
rothaer
12-02-2021, 04:33 PM
Differences between the dialactes are a lot bigger than the 'what' usage using kaj, ča or što. It is just that dialactes were named after the usage of 'what'.
That I was aware of, so I expressly limited my statement to that one word. After what Alenka wrote I got one important thing wrong, but the conclusion might be applicable as well. I'll wait for what she answers to my latest post...
Slovenian itself is not uniform btw. Actually very far from that.
"There are 46 different dialects in Slovenia"
On account of only 2.3 million people speaking the language, the 46 dialects of Slovenian language, often classifies Slovene as the most diverse Slavic Language. Slovenian dialects are categorized into seven regional groups: Carinthian, Upper Carniolan, Lower Carniolan, Littoral, Rovte, Styrian, and Pannonian. Sometimes dialects can be so different from one other, that it is hard for people from different parts of Slovenia to understand each other. The diversity of the Slovenian language is well captured in a Slovene proverb “Vsaka vas ima svoj glas “, meaning “every village has its own voice.”
https://theculturetrip.com/europe/slovenia/articles/9-fascinating-facts-about-the-slovenian-language/
It is fascinating how they have managed to survive on such a small territory well into modern times.
Alenka
12-02-2021, 04:40 PM
So there was a same root that developed into koji in Shtokavian and kaj in Kajkavian. So if I get you right, it's also not about a real absence of that word in the respective other dialect, but seemingly a question of how the usage developed.
Yes.
Is there any time estimate for that development?
I don't know.
And what does koji mean in Shtokavian?
It means which.
rothaer
12-02-2021, 04:54 PM
[And what does koji mean in Shtokavian?]
(...) It means which.
This is thinkworthy. Leto, afaik a Russian, wrote above: "Kakov is practically the same as kakoj, both mean which (welch) and kak means how (wie)."
Now, is it by chance that Shtokavian koji means the same (i. e. which) as Russian kakov or does kaj and koji in fact have the same etymological root as kak(ov), as I initially took for granted?
Alenka
12-02-2021, 05:00 PM
[And what does koji mean in Shtokavian?]
This is thinkworthy. Leto, afaik a Russian, wrote above: "Kakov is practically the same as kakoj, both mean which (welch) and kak means how (wie)."
Now, is it by chance that Shtokavian koji means the same (i. e. which) as Russian kakov or has kaj and koji in fact the same etymological root as kak(ov), as I initially took for granted?
Kak and kakov are from the root kakъ (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/kak%D1%8A).
Kaj and koji are from the root kъjь (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/k%D1%8Aj%D1%8C).
rothaer
12-02-2021, 05:11 PM
Kak and kakov are from the root kakъ (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/kak%D1%8A).
Kaj and koji are from the root kъjь (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/k%D1%8Aj%D1%8C).
That I understand. My question aims at if kakъ and kъjь do have a common root. (And hence Shtokavian koji and Russian kakov (both means which) do not by chance have the same meaning, but by a common etymological root.)
Alenka
12-02-2021, 05:20 PM
That I understand. My question aims at if kakъ and kъjь do have a common root. (And hence Shtokavian koji and Russian kakov (both means which) do not by chance have the same meaning, but by a common etymological root.)
It's all vaguely related, but kakъ and kъjь are different root branches.
There's also another third branch.
Here's all three:
- *jь, *čьjь, *jьnъ, *kъjь, *onъ, *ovъ, *sь, *tъ, *vьśь
- *jakъ, *jьnakъ, *kakъ, *onakъ, *ovakъ, *sicь, *takъ, *vьśakъ
- *koterъ, *jeterъ
vbnetkhio
12-02-2021, 05:28 PM
That I understand. My question aims at if kakъ and kъjь do have a common root. (And hence Shtokavian koji and Russian kakov (both means which) do not by chance have the same meaning, but by a common etymological root.)
in IE languages interrogative pronouns generally begin with a H or K sound, that's the connection
rothaer
12-02-2021, 05:36 PM
It's all vaguely related, but kakъ and kъjь are different root branches.
There's also another third branch.
Here's all three:
- *jь, *čьjь, *jьnъ, *kъjь, *onъ, *ovъ, *sь, *tъ, *vьśь
- *jakъ, *jьnakъ, *kakъ, *onakъ, *ovakъ, *sicь, *takъ, *vьśakъ
- *koterъ, *jeterъ
In general I know this with examples within Germanic languages. So this is how it works within living languages. But as the Slavic language family is notably younger (than the Germanic), I'm surprised by this range of branches' contents. What you say (the common root) must precede proto-Slavic if we define this with the language spoken per 500 AD, right? Even what you present to be within one branch seems to me very old. But who knows? I note this stunning o/p/k equivalent stated by your examples, but okay, this jezero / ozero equivalence I know myself and the to me (surprising) k / j equivalence (visible in your examples!) strongly supports kak and kaj to be the same!
rothaer
12-02-2021, 05:42 PM
in IE languages interrogative pronouns generally begin with a H or K sound, that's the connection
Actually we now come to the limits of my knowledge for beeing able to fully digest the content. I freely admit. But okay, I'll (try to) keep that in mind.
vbnetkhio
12-02-2021, 05:50 PM
Actually we now come to the limits of my knowledge for beeing able to fully digest the content. I freely admit. But okay, I'll (try to) keep that in mind.
it's really simple, in Latin it's quis/quid etc, in English it's who, what etc, (it was actually pronounced hwo, hwat like here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyCXAYBi9HU ) , in Slavic languages it's kak, kad etc.
rothaer
12-02-2021, 06:07 PM
it's really simple, in Latin it's quis/quid etc, in English it's who, what etc, (it was actually pronounced hwo, hwat like here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyCXAYBi9HU ) , in Slavic languages it's kak, kad etc.
IE k -> germ. h is known to me as a number of early "Germanic" names were linguistically not yet Germanic by definition, but pre Germanic. You have Clodwig -> H(Ludwig), Clotar -> (H)Lothar, the Rhine mouth river Vacalus (when Ceasar came) -> Wahalus (= Waal) just somewhat later, the Markomann Catualda (that would be Hadwald (had(er) = hassle) in modern German, tribe of Cimbrians from Cimbrian peninsula (in Denmark) who`s area today is called Himmerland and German hundert (hundred) is derived from (ought to be) kundert, something like that, however, that is closer to centum (hundred in Latin), etc.
So yeah, really simple. :cool:
CommonSense
12-02-2021, 10:32 PM
But those dialects along the border with Slovenia are more like Slovene? I mean it's a such a small territory, why would they be radically different from each other?
Depends on which part of the border. In NW Croatia they speak the Kajkavian dialect which is very similar to Slovene. However all other dialects spoken in Croatia are not mutually inteligible with Slovene.
Depends on which part of the border. In NW Croatia they speak the Kajkavian dialect which is very similar to Slovene. However all other dialects spoken in Croatia are not mutually inteligible with Slovene.
https://youtu.be/KXKWS3Oaars
No, kaj is derived from *kъjь (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/k%D1%8Aj%D1%8C).
In Russian it exists as кой (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B9#Russian), archaic word that can mean either how, which, who, or what; dependng on the context.
In Shtokavian, this root evolved into koji (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/koji#Serbo-Croatian), with the meaning which, while in Kajkavian it evolved into kaj (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kaj#Serbo-Croatian), with the meaning what.
The word kaj is also present in dialectal Polish, but means - where? It is used in Upper Silesia, Małopolska, around Kraków, Częstochowa.
MoroLP
12-07-2021, 01:05 PM
Kajkavian-speaking Croats plot very close to Czechs and Slovaks, just somewhat more south of them, which is really interesting considering how they don't border at all and there is Hungary, Austria and Slovenia between them.
https://i.imgur.com/nWIWjKe.png
Therefore together with Slovenes they should be seen as more of an extension of western Slavs in the south, than south Slavs proper.
ADMIXTURE method is not the best to discern such differences. The only sure thing it is saying is that the Slovenes and Kajkavian Croats have not experienced the strong influence of the Roman, and Romanized or non-Romanized Illyrian and Daco-Thracian like other South Slavs.
These weeks in my research found some very interesting and important scientific literature and updated my blog. See especially article's chapter 3.3 (https://southslavsdna.blogspot.com/2019/04/) citations, information, maps, and latest map that made on the migration of the Slavs: https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEjxT9LCV_4mq7o2RuB-DBmBh2bCkPLDSsacSBBRKrrEd-UGdD-BRXyq7YGg_ygbmisu06p_HD5f4hQbljsYMeOcgUpwL-wbPRUsph6KXhKIXvKBjgLTXph2IDG0YQ_wk2Dq-_-HuizdkHfHM5Xk3kfTETfncyc7i747TuBQ7HSW_QWuCWQiJcACO qZyHA=s923
For interactive (https://www.scribblemaps.com/maps/view/Migration-of-the-Slavs/lZkPeMQ9Yw) on SM.
Considering all scientific fields (archaeology, historiography, linguistics, anthropology, and genetics) it is the most accurate map out there. Indeed, the core of the Northwestern part of the Western South Slavs did not come from Eastern Carpathians-Southeastern Poland but via the Western Carpathians-Moravian Gate. They have an absence of many East Carpathian Slavisms and old Balkanism substratum.
Yes, but I was thinking they are maybe rather artificially West Slavic-like than actual displaced West Slavs. Do you know why? Slovenes and northern Croats are strongly R1a Z280, while western Slavs are strongly R1a M458. So I'd rather say Slovenes and north Croats are a mix of east Slavic tribes, but with some notable Celtic-German-like elements that made them similar to west Slavs plus their Balkanic influence is low.
One of the Eastern Carpathian migrations, the one most related to the Chakavian and Schakavian Croats and Bosnian & Herzegovinians, probably intermixed with their migration then and later and not only, most probably the early West Carpathian Slavs weren't strongly R1a-M458 (in addition lower I2-Y3120 or a bit higher frequency of Dinaric-North subclades) but more similar to East Carpathian counterpart although having a difference in subclades. The West-East division of the Slavs is a bit too simplistic and they probably had different intraregional-interregional and transitional zones with varying subclades ratios.
Another thing that complicates the matter is that if my friend results are representative, than northern chakavian speakers are also not far from west Slavs and in Kajkavian/Slovenian cluster. As far as I know, chakavian is not similar to west Slavic languages but it has some very arhaic old Slavic features that are resembling eastern Slavic.
Again, ADMIXTURE is not the best method to deduce such conclusions as rather speaks about the new Slavic adstratum-old Balkan substratum ratio (although could be indicative since the Eastern Carpathians probably had some old Balkan substratum and early Slavs partly obtained and brought it in addition of getting in contact with it in the Balkans).
Due to geographic proximity dialects have transitions with neighboring dialects. North Chakavian is definitely closer to Kajkavian and Slovene dialects than Middle and Southern Chakavian. I believe that in ADMIXTURE there is probably a difference between North Chakavian and migrant Middle Chakavian and South Chakavian. Chakavian also has some West Slavic influence, but it is minor compared to Kajkavian and Slovene. For example, West Slavic and East Slavic are a bit simplistic and fictional divisions that cannot be taken for granted and the same is about Chakavian, Kajkavian, and Shtokavian more correctly Schakavian i.e. Western Shtokavian and Eastern Shtokavian dialect groups as well as the Slovene language which is primarily divided between (North)Eastern and (South)Western Slovene dialect groups and so on.
Great post Moro.
ADMIXTURE method is not the best to discern such differences. The only sure thing it is saying is that the Slovenes and Kajkavian Croats have not experienced the strong influence of the Roman, and Romanized or non-Romanized Illyrian and Daco-Thracian like other South Slavs.
I'd just disagree with this. Slovenes and NW Croats don't seem more Slavic than Bosnians for example, it's just that their pre-Slavic part is rather different and significantly less southern than that of Balkan Slavs.
There are unreleased Slovenian IA samples who iirc are between Croatian IA (north Italian-like) and IA French (Gaulish). Very central European, and quite different from Thracian-Greek cline for example.
MoroLP
12-07-2021, 01:20 PM
...it's just that their pre-Slavic part is rather different and significantly less southern than that of Balkan Slavs. There are unreleased Slovenian IA samples who iirc are between Croatian IA (north Italian-like) and IA French (Gaulish). Very central European, and quite different from Thracian-Greek cline for example.
Well, that's basically saying the same thing but differently :)
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