did South Slavs exist before the Slavic migrations? [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

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vbnetkhio

12-12-2021, 10:37 AM

In the recent studies, there is a good amount of South Slavic-like ancient samples (Slavs with Italian-like admixture).

this suposedly pre-Slavic sample from Czechia, maybe it's misdated?

Libiva:LIB11,0.1161,0.142174,0.05242,0.041667,0.04 6162,0.010877,0.011045,0.001154,0,-0.020046,0.002111,0.001948,0.00773,0.016652,-0.0057,-0.003978,-0.004303,-0.012162,-0.003771,-0.002751,0.001622,-0.00779,0.013434,-0.002048,-0.001557

these medieval Slavs from Czechia, even more southern:

Pohansko_o:POH3,0.127482,0.123895,0.053551,0.02293 3,0.038776,0.002231,0.005875,0.013615,0.002045,-0.002916,0.006496,-0.005995,0.010852,0.011285,-0.015608,-0.011535,0.013821,-0.004434,-0.013827,0.013256,-0.003244,0.003586,0.00912,-0.010122,0.002036
Pohansko_o:POH27,0.126344,0.152329,0.037335,-0.001938,0.030159,-0.001116,0.004935,-0.002769,-0.008795,0.003462,0.00065,0.011989,0.002379,0.0068 81,-0.009093,-0.002121,0.024512,-0.000127,-0.005405,-0.006628,-0.001872,-0.011252,0.008751,0.001084,-0.002754

these samples from Viking sites:

VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA:VK476,0.12862,0.127957,0.044 5,0.027132,0.029544,0.004741,0.006345,0.001385,0.0 0225,-0.010387,-0.005521,0.001199,0.007433,0.02257,-0.011401,-0.015646,0.003781,-0.00228,-0.003017,-0.007003,-0.023334,0.000495,-0.003451,-0.010965,-0.002874
VK2020_RUS_Gnezdovo_VA:VK254,0.1161,0.106631,0.047 894,0.023579,0.027697,0.008367,0,0.009692,0.001432 ,-0.000547,-0.002761,-0.004046,0.000595,0.01968,-0.010179,0.003978,0.003912,0.003927,0.005656,-0.006753,-0.004492,-0.000495,0.008258,-0.003976,0.004191
VK2020_ITA_Foggia_MA:VK538,0.114961,0.137096,0.033 187,0.002584,0.030467,0.001952,-0.00188,0.006,0.006545,0.008018,-0.001949,0.002997,-0.000743,0.001651,-0.008822,0.001326,0.001565,0.000253,-0.000251,-0.004627,-0.005116,0.000989,0.001725,-0.001325,-0.003592
VK2020_DNK_Langeland_VA:VK362,0.127482,0.137096,0. 053174,0.026809,0.034776,0.008646,0.00517,0.013384 ,-0.000614,0.003098,-0.001949,0.000749,-0.003568,0.007569,-0.002307,-0.002387,0.010561,-0.00228,0.002765,0.003752,-0.004243,-0.000989,0.002835,0.001325,-0.010538

In the Viking age (793–1066), South Slavs already had local Balkan admixture, so these could be real South Slavs.
But how did they end up in these sites all across Europe? South Slavs didn't have much contact with the Vikings.

What could be the explanation for each of these samples?

vbnetkhio

12-12-2021, 10:44 AM

This is a sample from the upcoming study about Celts, date and location still unknown.
He is i2a-din, negative to all downstream subclades. Austosomally he's modern Serbian-like.

i2-din_unknown:I18719,0.124067,0.136081,0.047517,0.00 9044,0.039392,0.002231,0.00705,0.005538,0.002045,0 .000729,0,0.002548,0.000446,0.015001,-0.017372,0.005436,0.003912,-0.00114,0.000377,0,0.00262,0.008779,0.002095,-0.001084,0.003353

vbnetkhio

12-12-2021, 10:46 AM

these samples on a PCA:

https://i.imgur.com/VT2Mb6X.png

vbnetkhio

12-12-2021, 11:10 AM

their k13:

Viking_Sweden_Gotland_VK476,22.63,33.2,15.05,9.42, 12.77,2,0,0,1.43,2.29,1.21,0,0
Viking_Russia_Gnezdovo_VK254,23.16,32.74,14.76,7.2 2,10.23,4.14,0.36,1.36,4.26,1.42,0,0,0.35
Italy_Foggia-1249_Medieval_VK538,27.62,21.44,19.02,8.37,16.15,4 .96,0,0.3,0.91,0,0.21,0.68,0.34
Viking_Denmark_Langeland_VK362,30.94,27.92,18.28,7 .06,12.58,0.14,0.04,0,2.17,0.29,0.18,0,0.4
i2-din_unknown,27.79,28.53,16.56,6.64,17.32,0.96,0.00 ,0.00,1.39,0.18,0.55,0.05,0.02

<div class="panel leftpanel" id="distanceoutput"><table class="distances"><tbody><tr><th>Distance to:</th><th>i2-din_unknown</th></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(88.89316473827658, 100%, 50%)">3.88835441</td><td>Serb_Serbia_Central</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(85.44907526563145, 100%, 50%)">4.31886559</td><td>Serb_Croatia</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(85.39558409682371, 100%, 50%)">4.32555199</td><td>Romania_Crisana</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(84.7730103471784, 100%, 50%)">4.40337371</td><td>Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(83.67471404104299, 100%, 50%)">4.54066074</td><td>Romania_Maramures</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(83.63702982428416, 100%, 50%)">4.54537127</td><td>Serb_Serbia_West</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(82.34370172202264, 100%, 50%)">4.70703728</td><td>Serb</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(82.08092828140434, 100%, 50%)">4.73988396</td><td>Serb_Herzegovina</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(77.41534548690103, 100%, 50%)">5.32308181</td><td>Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(76.3369263564737, 100%, 50%)">5.45788421</td><td>Romania_Moldavia_South</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(75.78148803950997, 100%, 50%)">5.52731400</td><td>Serb_Serbia_South</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(75.77432419962358, 100%, 50%)">5.52820948</td><td>Croat_West</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(75.6488917838573, 100%, 50%)">5.54388853</td><td>Romania_Transylvania</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(75.13240813237243, 100%, 50%)">5.60844898</td><td>Serb_Bosnia</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(75.01651858737478, 100%, 50%)">5.62293518</td><td>Croat_South</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(74.71003643189806, 100%, 50%)">5.66124545</td><td>Montenegrin</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(74.42618295556099, 100%, 50%)">5.69672713</td><td>Romania_Moldavia_North</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(71.22512122003786, 100%, 50%)">6.09685985</td><td>Romania_average</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(69.51321757132862, 100%, 50%)">6.31084780</td><td>Romania_Banat</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(68.03804468652089, 100%, 50%)">6.49524441</td><td>Serb_Southern_Montenegro</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(66.55036015088595, 100%, 50%)">6.68120498</td><td>Bosniak</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(65.1215160559259, 100%, 50%)">6.85981049</td><td>Moldova_average</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(64.87448503641895, 100%, 50%)">6.89068937</td><td>Moldova_Centre</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(62.769127212666056, 100%, 50%)">7.15385910</td><td>Csángó-Ceangău</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(62.3185020998934, 100%, 50%)">7.21018724</td><td>Bosniak_Sandzak</td></tr></tbody></table><br><hr><table class="distances"><tbody><tr><th>Distance to:</th><th>Viking_Denmark_Langeland_VK362</th></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(82.28909971904673, 100%, 50%)">4.71386254</td><td>Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(74.50819854083595, 100%, 50%)">5.68647518</td><td>Csángó-Ceangău</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(72.74389774854468, 100%, 50%)">5.90701278</td><td>Croat_West</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(66.50105047760283, 100%, 50%)">6.68736869</td><td>Serb_Serbia_West</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(66.40746320615153, 100%, 50%)">6.69906710</td><td>Romania_Maramures</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(65.41507900527841, 100%, 50%)">6.82311512</td><td>Hungarian</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(63.92953005369049, 100%, 50%)">7.00880874</td><td>Hungarian_Alföld</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(63.752034703466826, 100%, 50%)">7.03099566</td><td>Croat_South</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(63.516544015083475, 100%, 50%)">7.06043200</td><td>Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(62.65121448539647, 100%, 50%)">7.16859819</td><td>Croat</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(60.885412967694684, 100%, 50%)">7.38932338</td><td>Serb_Croatia</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(58.19612957103737, 100%, 50%)">7.72548380</td><td>Serb</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(57.61928503134965, 100%, 50%)">7.79758937</td><td>Serb_Bosnia</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(57.26444070544999, 100%, 50%)">7.84194491</td><td>Romania_Crisana</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(57.246947484604355, 100%, 50%)">7.84413156</td><td>Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(56.487456357031334, 100%, 50%)">7.93906796</td><td>Serb_Serbia_Central</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(55.17452352662575, 100%, 50%)">8.10318456</td><td>Romania_Moldavia_North</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(54.07975728200023, 100%, 50%)">8.24003034</td><td>Croat_North</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(53.52062575505093, 100%, 50%)">8.30992178</td><td>Slovenian</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(52.421163076004305, 100%, 50%)">8.44735462</td><td>Serb_Herzegovina</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(49.77594714059862, 100%, 50%)">8.77800661</td><td>Bosniak</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(47.91134347208292, 100%, 50%)">9.01108207</td><td>Romania_Transylvania</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(47.30799218621074, 100%, 50%)">9.08650098</td><td>Austrian</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(47.26341223290714, 100%, 50%)">9.09207347</td><td>Montenegrin</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(46.94747095411411, 100%, 50%)">9.13156613</td><td>Croat_East</td></tr></tbody></table><br><hr><table class="distances"><tbody><tr><th>Distance to:</th><th>Italy_Foggia-1249_Medieval_VK538</th></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(79.33426011985026, 100%, 50%)">5.08321749</td><td>Macedonian-East</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(68.45547167739333, 100%, 50%)">6.44306604</td><td>Bosniak_Sandzak</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(68.13241474678043, 100%, 50%)">6.48344816</td><td>Serb_Southern_Montenegro</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(63.498304450220246, 100%, 50%)">7.06271194</td><td>Romania_Oltenia</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(63.152132845637915, 100%, 50%)">7.10598339</td><td>Montenegrin</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(62.30624297205112, 100%, 50%)">7.21171963</td><td>Romania_Banat</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(62.02367379697123, 100%, 50%)">7.24704078</td><td>Romania_Transylvania</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(60.53394918106634, 100%, 50%)">7.43325635</td><td>Bulgaria_Southwestern</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(59.37984493586314, 100%, 50%)">7.57751938</td><td>Romania_average</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(59.152018932424724, 100%, 50%)">7.60599763</td><td>Italian_Friuli_VG</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(58.928605714295344, 100%, 50%)">7.63392429</td><td>Romania_Moldavia_South</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(58.461433230859214, 100%, 50%)">7.69232085</td><td>Romania_Wallachia</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(57.764576003693826, 100%, 50%)">7.77942800</td><td>Romania_Muntenia</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(57.51528826984956, 100%, 50%)">7.81058897</td><td>Romania_Crisana</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(55.74077498133052, 100%, 50%)">8.03240313</td><td>Romania_Dobruja</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(54.359085929581994, 100%, 50%)">8.20511426</td><td>Macedonian-North</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(54.14624687992338, 100%, 50%)">8.23171914</td><td>Macedonian-Central</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(52.059178692041115, 100%, 50%)">8.49260266</td><td>Bulgaria_average</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(51.84460109426398, 100%, 50%)">8.51942486</td><td>Serb_Herzegovina</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(50.55672818767823, 100%, 50%)">8.68040898</td><td>Bulgaria_Northwestern</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(50.14666793917414, 100%, 50%)">8.73166651</td><td>Bulgaria_Northeastern</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(49.202576318060835, 100%, 50%)">8.84967796</td><td>Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(48.723052815093155, 100%, 50%)">8.90961840</td><td>Moldova_South</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(48.040856036220106, 100%, 50%)">8.99489300</td><td>Romania_Maramures</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(47.40287609002681, 100%, 50%)">9.07464049</td><td>Serb_Serbia_South</td></tr></tbody></table><br><hr><table class="distances"><tbody><tr><th>Distance to:</th><th>Viking_Russia_Gnezdovo_VK254</th></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(76.25777326198403, 100%, 50%)">5.46777834</td><td>Moldova_North</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(69.29558599096129, 100%, 50%)">6.33805175</td><td>Moldova_Centre</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(68.84527001341908, 100%, 50%)">6.39434125</td><td>Bosniak</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(68.29226750281929, 100%, 50%)">6.46346656</td><td>Bosniak_Bosnia</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(67.9170507747497, 100%, 50%)">6.51036865</td><td>Moldova_average</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(67.80105748197573, 100%, 50%)">6.52486781</td><td>Croat_East</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(67.49464027358731, 100%, 50%)">6.56316997</td><td>Romania_Moldavia_North</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(66.41695790644206, 100%, 50%)">6.69788026</td><td>Csángó-Ceangău</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(64.44030237663276, 100%, 50%)">6.94496220</td><td>Croat_South</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(63.038988773021245, 100%, 50%)">7.12012640</td><td>Serb_Bosnia</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(62.64563486533915, 100%, 50%)">7.16929564</td><td>Croat</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(59.61520721241152, 100%, 50%)">7.54809910</td><td>Hungarian_Alföld</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(57.18598882414848, 100%, 50%)">7.85175140</td><td>Ukrainian_Carpathian</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(55.44228008982968, 100%, 50%)">8.06971499</td><td>Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(55.40635325359003, 100%, 50%)">8.07420584</td><td>Croat_West</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(54.33335093062841, 100%, 50%)">8.20833113</td><td>Romania_Maramures</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(54.25348070049638, 100%, 50%)">8.21831491</td><td>Serb_Croatia</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(52.758536601290416, 100%, 50%)">8.40518292</td><td>Serb_Serbia_West</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(52.5707244588821, 100%, 50%)">8.42865944</td><td>Serb</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(51.78354450720852, 100%, 50%)">8.52705694</td><td>Hungarian</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(51.0569394355023, 100%, 50%)">8.61788257</td><td>Croat_North</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(50.230275907095645, 100%, 50%)">8.72121551</td><td>Poland_Lemko</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(49.69988904702923, 100%, 50%)">8.78751387</td><td>Serb_Serbia_Central</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(46.64972801686416, 100%, 50%)">9.16878400</td><td>Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(46.191989594624616, 100%, 50%)">9.22600130</td><td>Hungarian_North</td></tr></tbody></table><br><hr><table class="distances"><tbody><tr><th>Distance to:</th><th>Viking_Sweden_Gotland_VK476</th></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(97.13678937681762, 100%, 50%)">2.85790133</td><td>Moldova_North</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(91.16657495197629, 100%, 50%)">3.60417813</td><td>Moldova_Centre</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(91.02442407819993, 100%, 50%)">3.62194699</td><td>Moldova_average</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(91.01393438218977, 100%, 50%)">3.62325820</td><td>Bosniak</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(86.00611819753442, 100%, 50%)">4.24923523</td><td>Romania_Moldavia_North</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(85.0062405563506, 100%, 50%)">4.37421993</td><td>Serb_Bosnia</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(83.45479511618521, 100%, 50%)">4.56815061</td><td>Bosniak_Bosnia</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(81.0309661397668, 100%, 50%)">4.87112923</td><td>Croat_South</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(79.19349071532827, 100%, 50%)">5.10081366</td><td>Croat_East</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(74.49870331518011, 100%, 50%)">5.68766209</td><td>Serb_Croatia</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(72.87809851035294, 100%, 50%)">5.89023769</td><td>Serb</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(70.45280229922179, 100%, 50%)">6.19339971</td><td>Croat</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(70.35634179474684, 100%, 50%)">6.20545728</td><td>Serb_Serbia_West</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(69.27394357926094, 100%, 50%)">6.34075705</td><td>Serb_Serbia_Central</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(69.13364962964218, 100%, 50%)">6.35829380</td><td>Romania_Maramures</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(66.04796204034548, 100%, 50%)">6.74400474</td><td>Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(64.95348875723366, 100%, 50%)">6.88081391</td><td>Croat_West</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(64.33551940420173, 100%, 50%)">6.95806007</td><td>Csángó-Ceangău</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(63.51643070768276, 100%, 50%)">7.06044616</td><td>Serb_Serbia_South</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(62.53649505990779, 100%, 50%)">7.18293812</td><td>Serb_Herzegovina</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(58.24113990689271, 100%, 50%)">7.71985751</td><td>Hungarian_Alföld</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(57.179009877271106, 100%, 50%)">7.85262377</td><td>Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(56.89952139642679, 100%, 50%)">7.88755983</td><td>Ukrainian_Carpathian</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(56.208389266299264, 100%, 50%)">7.97395134</td><td>Romania_Crisana</td></tr><tr><td style="color:black;background-color:hsl(53.73382159804295, 100%, 50%)">8.28327230</td><td>Poland_Lemko</td></tr></tbody></table><br><hr></div>

Jana

12-12-2021, 11:18 AM

Crazy! No idea....!

vbnetkhio

12-12-2021, 11:25 AM

proto-Slavs lived not too far from the Dacian Costoboci tribe, so maybe some Slavic tribes were already mixed with Dacians in the proto-Slavic homeland, whil the more northern tribes were mixed with Balts?

https://i.imgur.com/96HbFzC.png

J. Ketch

12-12-2021, 11:29 AM

Why not? There is a half-Germanic sample from Eboracum (Roman Britain). The pre-existing Slavic and Germanic presence in Roman Europe is probably underestimated.

vbnetkhio

12-12-2021, 11:33 AM

Crazy! No idea....!

The upcoming Celtic study should include a lot of eastern Celts, so maybe we get some answers.

even this Celt from Germany has R1a-M458 and Balto-Slavic autosomal influence, so who knows what was the population in Czechia, Slovakia and Poland like at this time.

DEU_Singen_EIA:MX265,0.125205,0.144205,0.050911,0. 029716,0.048624,0.00251,0.003525,0.005077,0.005318 ,0.010934,0.01088,-0.004796,-0.000149,0.009496,-0.011129,-0.015778,-0.011083,0.007095,0.003771,-0.003627,-0.012977,-0.008656,-0.001725,-0.006266,-0.010298

Distance to: DEU_Singen_EIA:MX265
0.03996630 Slovenian
0.04020131 Croatian
0.04231325 Serbian
0.04315173 Austrian
0.04343903 Hungarian
0.04410959 Bosnian
0.04642676 Moldovan
0.04694886 German_East
0.04704125 French_Alsace
0.04740055 Montenegrin
0.04814070 Swiss_German
0.04822060 Romanian
0.04964723 French_Nord
0.05062387 German
0.05133540 Italian_Northeast
0.05143958 Macedonian
0.05240202 Czech
0.05246304 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.05313126 French_Auvergne
0.05327667 French_Occitanie
0.05347593 French_Seine-Maritime
0.05400777 Belgian
0.05478720 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.05484504 Bulgarian
0.05649416 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

Germany_SouthernGermany_Singen_IA:MX265,28.39,29.6 6,16.61,0,18.22,3.31,0,0,1.2,0,2.05,0,0.57

Distance to: Germany_SouthernGermany_Singen_IA:MX265
9.71020597 Serb_Serbia_Central
9.78576006 Croat_West
10.15974409 Serb_Croatia
10.40517179 Croat_South
10.47803894 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
10.49908567 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
10.56311980 Serb_Herzegovina
10.63210233 Romania_Maramures
10.65734489 Serb
10.68945275 Serb_Serbia_West
10.83354051 Romania_Crisana
10.91581880 Serb_Bosnia
10.97583254 Romania_Moldavia_North
10.98787059 Croat
11.27632476 Bosniak
11.32649990 Serb_Serbia_South
11.42943131 Romania_Moldavia_South
11.49014795 Montenegrin
11.58837780 Hungarian_Alföld
11.62897674 Romania_Transylvania
11.79408326 Hungarian
11.89559582 Moldova_average
11.91899325 Moldova_Centre
11.98175279 Croat_East
11.99100913 Csángó-Ceangău

bained

12-12-2021, 12:38 PM

Nah

Peterski

12-12-2021, 01:22 PM

But how did they end up in these sites all across Europe? South Slavs didn't have much contact with the Vikings.

What could be the explanation for each of these samples?

Before Magyar and Bavarian expansions - which created Hungary and Austria - South Slavs were not separated from North Slavs, but there was a continuous Slavic territory, with groups such as Pannonian Slavs living between present-day North Slavic and South Slavic areas.

Moreover, Slavic language(s) were at that time still largely undifferentiated. Those were rather dialects, not languages. And a Slavic person from the Adriatic Sea's coast could easily travel to the Baltic Sea's coast and communicate with the locals there without much trouble.

I think these are possible explanations.

They could be South Slavic travellers who visited North Slavic lands.

At that time all of Slavdom was still connected with only minor differences in language/dialects and culture.

=====

Pohansko was a Moravian town, but at that time Moravians directly bordered South Slavic lands: https://imgur.com/W2YO8rx.jpg

https://imgur.com/W2YO8rx.jpg

^^^
You can see the location of Pohansko in this map. This map also already shows the extent of the initial Magyar conquest (Madziarzy).

Peterski

12-12-2021, 01:52 PM

The upcoming Celtic study should include a lot of eastern Celts, so maybe we get some answers.

even this Celt from Germany has R1a-M458 and Balto-Slavic autosomal influence, so who knows what was the population in Czechia, Slovakia and Poland like at this time.

DEU_Singen_EIA:MX265,0.125205,0.144205,0.050911,0. 029716,0.048624,0.00251,0.003525,0.005077,0.005318 ,0.010934,0.01088,-0.004796,-0.000149,0.009496,-0.011129,-0.015778,-0.011083,0.007095,0.003771,-0.003627,-0.012977,-0.008656,-0.001725,-0.006266,-0.010298

Distance to: DEU_Singen_EIA:MX265
0.03996630 Slovenian
0.04020131 Croatian
0.04231325 Serbian
0.04315173 Austrian
0.04343903 Hungarian
0.04410959 Bosnian
0.04642676 Moldovan
0.04694886 German_East
0.04704125 French_Alsace
0.04740055 Montenegrin
0.04814070 Swiss_German
0.04822060 Romanian
0.04964723 French_Nord
0.05062387 German
0.05133540 Italian_Northeast
0.05143958 Macedonian
0.05240202 Czech
0.05246304 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.05313126 French_Auvergne
0.05327667 French_Occitanie
0.05347593 French_Seine-Maritime
0.05400777 Belgian
0.05478720 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.05484504 Bulgarian
0.05649416 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

Germany_SouthernGermany_Singen_IA:MX265,28.39,29.6 6,16.61,0,18.22,3.31,0,0,1.2,0,2.05,0,0.57

Distance to: Germany_SouthernGermany_Singen_IA:MX265
9.71020597 Serb_Serbia_Central
9.78576006 Croat_West
10.15974409 Serb_Croatia
10.40517179 Croat_South
10.47803894 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
10.49908567 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
10.56311980 Serb_Herzegovina
10.63210233 Romania_Maramures
10.65734489 Serb
10.68945275 Serb_Serbia_West
10.83354051 Romania_Crisana
10.91581880 Serb_Bosnia
10.97583254 Romania_Moldavia_North
10.98787059 Croat
11.27632476 Bosniak
11.32649990 Serb_Serbia_South
11.42943131 Romania_Moldavia_South
11.49014795 Montenegrin
11.58837780 Hungarian_Alföld
11.62897674 Romania_Transylvania
11.79408326 Hungarian
11.89559582 Moldova_average
11.91899325 Moldova_Centre
11.98175279 Croat_East
11.99100913 Csángó-Ceangău

Maybe this sample is actually wrongly dated?

As you remember Early Czech Slavs - RISE569 and RISE568 - were also wrongly dated at first, and were considered Bell Beaker samples. Only after few years the mistake was noticed:

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/05/two-early-slavs-from-bohemia.html

There is also a Bell Beaker sample from Bavaria who might also be a wrongly dated Slav similar to RISE568 and RISE569.

I wonder how common such mistakes are and how big they can be (how many hundreds or thousands of years errors are possible?).

Roy

12-12-2021, 01:58 PM

Before Magyar and Bavarian expansions - which created Hungary and Austria - South Slavs were not separated from North Slavs, but there was a continuous Slavic territory, with groups such as Pannonian Slavs living between present-day North Slavic and South Slavic areas.

Moreover, Slavic language(s) were at that time still largely undifferentiated. Those were rather dialects, not languages. And a Slavic person from the Adriatic Sea's coast could easily travel to the Baltic Sea's coast and communicate with the locals there without much trouble.

I think these are possible explanations.

They could be South Slavic travellers who visited North Slavic lands.

At that time all of Slavdom was still connected with only minor differences in language/dialects and culture.

=====

Pohansko was a Moravian town, but at that time Moravians directly bordered South Slavic lands: https://imgur.com/W2YO8rx.jpg

https://imgur.com/W2YO8rx.jpg

^^^
You can see the location of Pohansko in this map. This map also already shows the extent of the initial Magyar conquest (Madziarzy).

I own a book with this exact map in it, even that slightly yellowish tinge of the paper is the same! :D There is a lot of great historical maps in this book but I can't remember the title nor find it now in my house (I have a lot of books).

Roy

12-12-2021, 02:03 PM

Maybe this sample is actually wrongly dated?

As you remember Early Czech Slavs - RISE569 and RISE568 - were also wrongly dated at first, and were considered Bell Beaker samples. Only after few years the mistake was noticed:

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/05/two-early-slavs-from-bohemia.html

There is also a Bell Beaker sample from Bavaria who might also be a wrongly dated Slav similar to RISE568 and RISE569.

I wonder how common such mistakes are and how big they can be (how many hundreds or thousands of years errors are possible?).

Yup, and no one thought there was anything suspicious about this Bell Beaker initially. I don't remember the exact genetic range of Bell Beakers but it probably means that many Bell Beakers were actually fairly similar to early (West?) Slavs.

Roy

12-12-2021, 02:05 PM

The upcoming Celtic study should include a lot of eastern Celts, so maybe we get some answers.

even this Celt from Germany has R1a-M458 and Balto-Slavic autosomal influence, so who knows what was the population in Czechia, Slovakia and Poland like at this time.

DEU_Singen_EIA:MX265,0.125205,0.144205,0.050911,0. 029716,0.048624,0.00251,0.003525,0.005077,0.005318 ,0.010934,0.01088,-0.004796,-0.000149,0.009496,-0.011129,-0.015778,-0.011083,0.007095,0.003771,-0.003627,-0.012977,-0.008656,-0.001725,-0.006266,-0.010298

Distance to: DEU_Singen_EIA:MX265
0.03996630 Slovenian
0.04020131 Croatian
0.04231325 Serbian
0.04315173 Austrian
0.04343903 Hungarian
0.04410959 Bosnian
0.04642676 Moldovan
0.04694886 German_East
0.04704125 French_Alsace
0.04740055 Montenegrin
0.04814070 Swiss_German
0.04822060 Romanian
0.04964723 French_Nord
0.05062387 German
0.05133540 Italian_Northeast
0.05143958 Macedonian
0.05240202 Czech
0.05246304 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.05313126 French_Auvergne
0.05327667 French_Occitanie
0.05347593 French_Seine-Maritime
0.05400777 Belgian
0.05478720 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.05484504 Bulgarian
0.05649416 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

Germany_SouthernGermany_Singen_IA:MX265,28.39,29.6 6,16.61,0,18.22,3.31,0,0,1.2,0,2.05,0,0.57

Distance to: Germany_SouthernGermany_Singen_IA:MX265
9.71020597 Serb_Serbia_Central
9.78576006 Croat_West
10.15974409 Serb_Croatia
10.40517179 Croat_South
10.47803894 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
10.49908567 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
10.56311980 Serb_Herzegovina
10.63210233 Romania_Maramures
10.65734489 Serb
10.68945275 Serb_Serbia_West
10.83354051 Romania_Crisana
10.91581880 Serb_Bosnia
10.97583254 Romania_Moldavia_North
10.98787059 Croat
11.27632476 Bosniak
11.32649990 Serb_Serbia_South
11.42943131 Romania_Moldavia_South
11.49014795 Montenegrin
11.58837780 Hungarian_Alföld
11.62897674 Romania_Transylvania
11.79408326 Hungarian
11.89559582 Moldova_average
11.91899325 Moldova_Centre
11.98175279 Croat_East
11.99100913 Csángó-Ceangău

DEU_Singen_EIA:MX265 was probably some kind of mutt, and neither a Slav or a Celt.

Arūnas

12-12-2021, 02:19 PM

I own a book with this exact map in it, even that slightly yellowish tinge of the paper is the same! :D There is a lot of great historical maps in this book but I can't remember the title nor find it now in my house (I have a lot of books).

I, as the senior on here was taught with communist indoctrination, and we had that Atlas in primary school
https://a.uguu.se/lMxHTkWx.jpg
[img]https://a.uguu.se/qjRstHMv.jpg

they had to justify the settlement of these lands

Peterski

12-12-2021, 04:52 PM

rothaer

12-12-2021, 05:16 PM

It is from Atlas Historyczny Polski, publisher PPWK, by Tadeusz Ładogórski.

Another German renegade (family name Ladenberger)?:

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_%C5%81adog%C3%B3rski

rothaer

12-12-2021, 05:41 PM

The upcoming Celtic study should include a lot of eastern Celts, so maybe we get some answers.

even this Celt from Germany has R1a-M458 and Balto-Slavic autosomal influence, so who knows what was the population in Czechia, Slovakia and Poland like at this time.

DEU_Singen_EIA:MX265,0.125205,0.144205,0.050911,0. 029716,0.048624,0.00251,0.003525,0.005077,0.005318 ,0.010934,0.01088,-0.004796,-0.000149,0.009496,-0.011129,-0.015778,-0.011083,0.007095,0.003771,-0.003627,-0.012977,-0.008656,-0.001725,-0.006266,-0.010298

Distance to: DEU_Singen_EIA:MX265
0.03996630 Slovenian
0.04020131 Croatian
0.04231325 Serbian
0.04315173 Austrian
0.04343903 Hungarian
0.04410959 Bosnian
0.04642676 Moldovan
0.04694886 German_East
0.04704125 French_Alsace
0.04740055 Montenegrin
0.04814070 Swiss_German
0.04822060 Romanian
0.04964723 French_Nord
0.05062387 German
0.05133540 Italian_Northeast
0.05143958 Macedonian
0.05240202 Czech
0.05246304 Ukrainian_Zakarpattia
0.05313126 French_Auvergne
0.05327667 French_Occitanie
0.05347593 French_Seine-Maritime
0.05400777 Belgian
0.05478720 Ukrainian_Lviv
0.05484504 Bulgarian
0.05649416 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige

Germany_SouthernGermany_Singen_IA:MX265,28.39,29.6 6,16.61,0,18.22,3.31,0,0,1.2,0,2.05,0,0.57

Distance to: Germany_SouthernGermany_Singen_IA:MX265
9.71020597 Serb_Serbia_Central
9.78576006 Croat_West
10.15974409 Serb_Croatia
10.40517179 Croat_South
10.47803894 Serb_Serbia_Vojvodina
10.49908567 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
10.56311980 Serb_Herzegovina
10.63210233 Romania_Maramures
10.65734489 Serb
10.68945275 Serb_Serbia_West
10.83354051 Romania_Crisana
10.91581880 Serb_Bosnia
10.97583254 Romania_Moldavia_North
10.98787059 Croat
11.27632476 Bosniak
11.32649990 Serb_Serbia_South
11.42943131 Romania_Moldavia_South
11.49014795 Montenegrin
11.58837780 Hungarian_Alföld
11.62897674 Romania_Transylvania
11.79408326 Hungarian
11.89559582 Moldova_average
11.91899325 Moldova_Centre
11.98175279 Croat_East
11.99100913 Csángó-Ceangău

This Singen individual gets even 31% (paleo) Balkan (!) in the Feiichy ancient Slavic calculator 2.0:

Target: DEU_Singen_EIA:MX265
Distance: 2.7441% / 0.02744147
47.4 (Balto-)Slavic
31.0 Balkan
18.2 Celtic_like
3.4 Graeco-Roman

On your map the Kostoboki arte depicted within what I assume part of the Slavic urheimat even. Such a "Dacian" admixture into some proto Slavs seems possible.

How is this Singen individual dated?

rothaer

12-12-2021, 05:43 PM

Peterski

12-12-2021, 06:06 PM

Another German renegade (family name Ladenberger)?:

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_%C5%81adog%C3%B3rski

Yes it was a family of Galician Germans. BTW another curiosity about this family name:

On 27.09.1944 major Eugeniusz Ladenberger and general von Zelewski (mother's name: Schimansky) discussed preliminary conditions of Warsaw Uprising's ceasefire.

vbnetkhio

12-12-2021, 09:38 PM

Before Magyar and Bavarian expansions - which created Hungary and Austria - South Slavs were not separated from North Slavs, but there was a continuous Slavic territory, with groups such as Pannonian Slavs living between present-day North Slavic and South Slavic areas.

Moreover, Slavic language(s) were at that time still largely undifferentiated. Those were rather dialects, not languages. And a Slavic person from the Adriatic Sea's coast could easily travel to the Baltic Sea's coast and communicate with the locals there without much trouble.

I think these are possible explanations.

They could be South Slavic travellers who visited North Slavic lands.

At that time all of Slavdom was still connected with only minor differences in language/dialects and culture.

=====

Pohansko was a Moravian town, but at that time Moravians directly bordered South Slavic lands: https://imgur.com/W2YO8rx.jpg

https://imgur.com/W2YO8rx.jpg

^^^
You can see the location of Pohansko in this map. This map also already shows the extent of the initial Magyar conquest (Madziarzy).

Why do you think those are South Slavic lands? The Slavic tribes in Austria were linguistically probably West Slavic, and autosomally identical to Moravians.

Those outliers from Pohansko are something else, they could be migrants from somewhere like Bosnia or further South/East.

Do you think it's possible a group of Roman colonists preserved their genetics until the medieval era, and these samples are mixed with them? Pohansko is close to the Danubian limes.

Or a third option, what do you think about my theory on Dacian admixed proto-Slavs?

vbnetkhio

12-12-2021, 09:52 PM

This Singen individual gets even 31% (paleo) Balkan (!) in the Feiichy ancient Slavic calculator 2.0:

Target: DEU_Singen_EIA:MX265
Distance: 2.7441% / 0.02744147
47.4 (Balto-)Slavic
31.0 Balkan
18.2 Celtic_like
3.4 Graeco-Roman

On your map the Kostoboki arte depicted within what I assume part of the Slavic urheimat even. Such a "Dacian" admixture into some proto Slavs seems possible.

This a proto-Slavic area only according to Udolph's theory, which is based only on lingustics. History and Archaeology find Dacians here, this is one of the reasons why I think Udolph's theory is wrong.

How is this Singen individual dated?
between 757 and 421 BC

Nausevar

12-16-2021, 08:11 PM

Someone call Bosniensis! ;)

Far_away

04-22-2023, 02:02 AM

Someone call Bosniensis! ;)
Too bad he is banned

Occiput in Starlight

04-22-2023, 02:18 AM

What have been the biggest breakthroughs or discoveries or reimaginings in South Slavic studies in the past two years?

Relating to ethnogenesis and the like.

Occiput in Starlight

04-22-2023, 02:28 AM

Freddie Mercury: GIVE IT TO ME ONE MORE TIME!