The Romanian-Albanian Linguistic Connection

[SilverKnight]

The Romanian-Albanian Linguistic Connection



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDPb-vVn07c

[Nurzat]

there is zero real relevant connection, Romanian uses more Turkic, Slavic, Hungarian or German words..

[ixulescu]

Albanian is like English. It has a 60% Romance vocabulary but a non-Romance grammar.

[E1b1b]

Albanian is like English. It has a 60% Romance vocabulary but a non-Romance grammar.

There might be a connection between certain words in Romanian of Dacian origin and certain Albanian words. Illyrian could have been related to Dacian-Thracian languages.

[ixulescu]

There might be a connection between certain words in Romanian of Dacian origin and certain Albanian words. Illyrian could have been related to Dacian-Thracian languages.

That connection is tiny, not larger than the common vocabulary with the native Balkanite substrate from Bulgarian or Serbian.

Obviously, the commonality with the Romance vocabulary of Albanian is much greater, but overall Albanian is fully incomprehensible to Romanian speakers due to the isolated evolution of Albanian and the fact that it branches from a different family of Romance languages (possibly more related to Dalmatian).

[Nurzat]

There might be a connection between certain words in Romanian of Dacian origin and certain Albanian words. Illyrian could have been related to Dacian-Thracian languages.

in Romanian language doesn't go with genetics, language was recently imposed politically while genetically only southwest Romanians are Vlach, the others are mix of everything that were just linguistically Vlachized, and that happened very recently for many places, even as recently as a few decades ago (large chunks of Wallachia were Bulgarian speaking in the countryside, not to mention the hundreds of Slavic speaking villages across the country (Ukrainian, Russian, Polish, Slovak, Czech, Serb), or the million Germans that fled a few decades ago, or the two million Hungarians still living in Transylvania/Szeleky land/Partium etc).

a connection could have been only there where Vlachs came from, in the deep Balkans, northern Greece/Macedonia/Timok, but Vlachs don't descend from Dacians/Thracians, they descend from Levantine and Near Eastern colonists brought by the Romans to today's northern Greece/Macedonia

[E1b1b]

in Romanian language doesn't go with genetics, language was recently imposed politically while genetically only southwest Romanians are Vlach, the others are mix of everything that were just linguistically Vlachized, and that happened very recently for many places, even as recently as a few decades ago (large chunks of Wallachia were Bulgarian speaking in the countryside, not to mention the hundreds of Slavic speaking villages across the country (Ukrainian, Russian, Polish, Slovak, Czech, Serb), or the million Germans that fled a few decades ago, or the two million Hungarians still living in Transylvania/Szeleky land/Partium etc).

a connection could have been only there where Vlachs came from, in the deep Balkans, northern Greece/Macedonia/Timok, but Vlachs don't descend from Dacians/Thracians, they descend from Levantine and Near Eastern colonists brought by the Romans to today's northern Greece/Macedonia

That’s first I’m hearing of this. Why are their paternal and maternal clades European then?

[ixulescu]

That’s first I’m hearing of this. Why are their paternal and maternal clades European then?

You heard it the first time here because it's nonsense. Vlachs are Romanized Dacians in the north and Romanized Thracians and Illyrians in the south, who were later Slavicized to a smaller or larger extent.

[ixulescu]

in Romanian language doesn't go with genetics, language was recently imposed politically while genetically only southwest Romanians are Vlach, the others are mix of everything that were just linguistically Vlachized, and that happened very recently for many places, even as recently as a few decades ago (large chunks of Wallachia were Bulgarian speaking in the countryside, not to mention the hundreds of Slavic speaking villages across the country (Ukrainian, Russian, Polish, Slovak, Czech, Serb), or the million Germans that fled a few decades ago, or the two million Hungarians still living in Transylvania/Szeleky land/Partium etc).


That's bullshit. Even 100 years ago, during the Greater Romania times, 70% of the population was Romanian. The rest were mostly Hungarians, Germans and Jews. Only then, the entire Slavic speaking population of Romania (comprising of Ruthenians, Russians, Bulgarians, Serbs etc) was numerically similar to that of Hungarians.

20 years ago Romanians were already 90% of the population. The rest were Hungarians and Gypsies. Slavic population is almost completely assimilated.

[Nurzat]

You heard it the first time here because it's nonsense. Vlachs are Romanized Dacians in the north and Romanized Thracians and Illyrians in the south, who were later Slavicized to a smaller or larger extent.

I don't think Romans could have Romanized native Balkanites in Greece, I think they could have rather make their soldier implants/colonists become Roman (and learn/speak Latin badly but lacking another language, using that to communicate between themselves). over the years to this day of course they blended in and absorbed natives as well, but my guess is that the basis of Vlachs is Roman colonists exclusively, maybe with some local women (by local I mean northern Greece/Macedonia)

[Jana]

There might be a connection between certain words in Romanian of Dacian origin and certain Albanian words. Illyrian could have been related to Dacian-Thracian languages.

Albanians are far from being descended from Illyrians only in their Paleo Balkan part, they have heavy Thracian admixture. E-V13 is absent in Illyrians so far but heavily present in Thracians.
Dacians were subset of Thracians so that might have been the connection.

[ixulescu]

I don't think Romans could have Romanized native Balkanites in Greece, I think they could have rather make their soldier implants/colonists become Roman (and learn/speak Latin badly but lacking another language, using that to communicate between themselves). over the years to this day of course they blended in and absorbed natives as well, but my guess is that the basis of Vlachs is Roman colonists exclusively, maybe with some local women (by local I mean northern Greece/Macedonia)

Native Balkanites were Hellenized in Greece. Where did I say that native Balkanites were Romanized in Greece? Greece is not Balkan, or at least not according to Greeks.

Anyways, I posted this result some time ago: Romanians are by far the closest Balkan population to Neolithic mtdna samples from Romania. Migration theory is garbage.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

"J. V. Fine notes that Albanian has few loan words from Greek, and that loan words from Latin show links not with the Romance languages of Western Europe nor the Dalmatian dialect once spoken along the Adriatic coast, but rather with the speech of the East Roman descendants of Latin, namely Romanian and Aromanian or Vlach. This is odd in view of the fact that the Illyrians were certainly active in coastal areas where they came into contact with the Greeks and later the Romans. The marine terminology of Albanian is derived from other languages, and this suggests that the Albanians were not a nautical people, unlike the Illyrians who terrified even the Romans by their mastery of the sea. Links between the sound system of ancient Illyrian, as conjectured from place names, and modern Albanian are hard to find. There is a gap of about five centuries between the last genuine mention of Illyrians and the first authentic reference to Albanians. During these centuries, it is argued, a new Indo-European race could have entered Albania. They would have arrived at the same time as the Slavs, though different from them. They would have come from the Danube area, and this would explain the links between Albanian and Romanian, reinforced by meeting Latin-speakers in Albania, in the same way as the Franks met Latin-speakers on the Rhine and in Gaul. French shoes few traces of the language of the ancient Gauls because this language had vanished by the time the Franks arrived. In the same way, it is argued, Illyrian would have vanished after seven hundred years of Roman rule which began earlier and finished later than in Gaul. These are strong but not irrefutable arguments."

T.J. Winnifrith, Nobody's Kingdom: A History of Northern Albania,The Illyrians, pg 136

[Hulu]

lol here we go again

[Tommie]

in Romanian language doesn't go with genetics, language was recently imposed politically while genetically only southwest Romanians are Vlach, the others are mix of everything that were just linguistically Vlachized, and that happened very recently for many places, even as recently as a few decades ago (large chunks of Wallachia were Bulgarian speaking in the countryside, not to mention the hundreds of Slavic speaking villages across the country (Ukrainian, Russian, Polish, Slovak, Czech, Serb), or the million Germans that fled a few decades ago, or the two million Hungarians still living in Transylvania/Szeleky land/Partium etc).

a connection could have been only there where Vlachs came from, in the deep Balkans, northern Greece/Macedonia/Timok, but Vlachs don't descend from Dacians/Thracians, they descend from Levantine and Near Eastern colonists brought by the Romans to today's northern Greece/Macedonia
Do you have to ruin every single Romanian-related thread with your stupid shit? You're part of some irrelevant ethnic minority group which contributed next to zero to Romania, that's why you're looking for attention here. Fuck off.

[Jana]

T.J. Winnifrith, Nobody's Kingdom: A History of Northern Albania,The Illyrians, pg 136

Pretty good points. E-V13 also points to Danubian expansion. Albanians as ethnic group most likely formed somewhere in central Balkans, in transitional Illyrian-Thracian zone, somewhere around Kosovo.
They are partly Illyrian, but their Illyrian ancestors were mountain Illyrians and not coastal ones.

Coastal Illyrians were absorbed by Dalmatian Croats who continued with their nautical and pirate traditions.

Main three Albanian hgs are all Paleo-Balkan, but J2b2 clades and eastern R1b were found in ancient inhabitants of Croatia and in Illyrian tribe of southern Italy, while E-V13 was absent.
However Romanized Moesians from Serbia (Moesians were Thracian tribe) were E-V13 heavy.

So they are mix of Paleo-Balkanic tribes, Romans and Slavs mainly but everything points to their origins somewhere in interior, far from the sea and in contact with eastern Balkans and Danubian cultures as well.
They are land of the eagles, a mountain folk.

[E1b1b]

Pretty good points. E-V13 also points to Danubian expansion. Albanians as ethnic group most likely formed somewhere in central Balkans, in transitional Illyrian-Thracian zone, somewhere around Kosovo.
They are partly Illyrian, but their Illyrian ancestors were mountain Illyrians and not coastal ones.

Coastal Illyrians were absorbed by Dalmatian Croats who continued with their nautical and pirate traditions.

Main three Albanian hgs are all Paleo-Balkan, but J2b2 clades and eastern R1b were found in ancient inhabitants of Croatia and in Illyrian tribe of southern Italy, while E-V13 was absent.
However Romanized Moesians from Serbia (Moesians were Thracian tribe) were E-V13 heavy.

So they are mix of Paleo-Balkanic tribes, Romans and Slavs mainly but everything pointa to their origins somewhere in interior, far from the sea and in contact with eastern Balkans and Danubian cultures as well.
They are land of the eagles, a mountain folk.



This summary is pretty on point. Thracians and Dacians came from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gáva-Holigrady_culture
which has a more northern(north of Danube) origin compared to Illyrians which are related more to western med/Balkan culture.

[Varda]

That connection is tiny, not larger than the common vocabulary with the native Balkanite substrate from Bulgarian or Serbian.

Obviously, the commonality with the Romance vocabulary of Albanian is much greater, but overall Albanian is fully incomprehensible to Romanian speakers due to the isolated evolution of Albanian and the fact that it branches from a different family of Romance languages (possibly more related to Dalmatian).

Albanian is more related with East Romance languages than with Dalmatian.

[Hulu]

Pretty good points. E-V13 also points to Danubian expansion. Albanians as ethnic group most likely formed somewhere in central Balkans, in transitional Illyrian-Thracian zone, somewhere around Kosovo.
They are partly Illyrian, but their Illyrian ancestors were mountain Illyrians and not coastal ones.

Coastal Illyrians were absorbed by Dalmatian Croats who continued with their nautical and pirate traditions.

Main three Albanian hgs are all Paleo-Balkan, but J2b2 clades and eastern R1b were found in ancient inhabitants of Croatia and in Illyrian tribe of southern Italy, while E-V13 was absent.
However Romanized Moesians from Serbia (Moesians were Thracian tribe) were E-V13 heavy.

So they are mix of Paleo-Balkanic tribes, Romans and Slavs mainly but everything points to their origins somewhere in interior, far from the sea and in contact with eastern Balkans and Danubian cultures as well.
They are land of the eagles, a mountain folk.

My genetics beg to differ

And why would the ancient city folks be influenced by these mountain people, we have 3000 year old cities. Something which you lack...

[Varda]

Pretty good points. E-V13 also points to Danubian expansion. Albanians as ethnic group most likely formed somewhere in central Balkans, in transitional Illyrian-Thracian zone, somewhere around Kosovo.
They are partly Illyrian, but their Illyrian ancestors were mountain Illyrians and not coastal ones.

Coastal Illyrians were absorbed by Dalmatian Croats who continued with their nautical and pirate traditions.

Main three Albanian hgs are all Paleo-Balkan, but J2b2 clades and eastern R1b were found in ancient inhabitants of Croatia and in Illyrian tribe of southern Italy, while E-V13 was absent.
However Romanized Moesians from Serbia (Moesians were Thracian tribe) were E-V13 heavy.

So they are mix of Paleo-Balkanic tribes, Romans and Slavs mainly but everything points to their origins somewhere in interior, far from the sea and in contact with eastern Balkans and Danubian cultures as well.
They are land of the eagles, a mountain folk.

Proto-Albanians most likely originated from semi romanized Thracians from present day SE Serbia and western Bulgaria.

[Jana]

My genetics beg to differ

You are not typical Gheg though! Yes you are heavily Med.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Pretty good points. E-V13 also points to Danubian expansion. Albanians as ethnic group most likely formed somewhere in central Balkans, in transitional Illyrian-Thracian zone, somewhere around Kosovo.
They are partly Illyrian, but their Illyrian ancestors were mountain Illyrians and not coastal ones.

Coastal Illyrians were absorbed by Dalmatian Croats who continued with their nautical and pirate traditions.

Main three Albanian hgs are all Paleo-Balkan, but J2b2 clades and eastern R1b were found in ancient inhabitants of Croatia and in Illyrian tribe of southern Italy, while E-V13 was absent.
However Romanized Moesians from Serbia (Moesians were Thracian tribe) were E-V13 heavy.

So they are mix of Paleo-Balkanic tribes, Romans and Slavs mainly but everything points to their origins somewhere in interior, far from the sea and in contact with eastern Balkans and Danubian cultures as well.
They are land of the eagles, a mountain folk.

It is an interesting theory but as the author said it is not conclusive. There are other possible theories and possible explanations. Northern Albania is not like the pleasant hills and plains of Gaul\France. In the rugged Pyrenees a pre-Roman language did survive for example (Basque language). And while Latin was the official language of Northern Albania, its contact with Western Latin was overshadowed by more lengthy contact with the East Roman Vlachs in medieval times (could also explain why the Albanian language is closer to Eastern Romance languages without necessarily mean they migrated somewhere from the Danube region).

[Hulu]

Here is a thread by Dna8 you might find helpful about our marine vocabulary



https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?281553-Words-Related-to-the-Sea-or-Sea-Faring-in-the-Albanian-Language-Spectrum&p=5867306&viewfull=1#post5867306

[Hulu]

You are not typical Gheg though! Yes you are heavily Med.

See my edit. Why would our cities be influenced by mountain folk? That doesn't make any sense even if you never read about Albanian history.

[Jana]

My genetics beg to differ

And why would the ancient city folks be influenced by these mountain people, we have 3000 year old cities. Something which you lack...

You should be more polite, First Albanologist was a Croat. It's a fact Albanians lacks maritime vocabulary and Albanians are first time mentioned pretty late which means they lived in inaccesible mountains of deep Balkans and came closer to the sea later. We have ancient cities too so I don't see your point. But they weren't built by Croats.

[TheMaestro]

Where my Dardanian plebs at.

[Jana]

It is an interesting theory but as the author said it is not conclusive. There are other possible theories and possible explanations. Northern Albania is not like the pleasant hills and plains of Gaul\France. In the rugged Pyrenees a pre-Roman language did survive for example (Basque language). And while Latin was the official language of Northern Albania, its contact with Western Latin was overshadowed by more lengthy contact with the East Roman Vlachs in medieval times (could also explain why the Albanian language is closer to Eastern Romance languages without necessarily mean they migrated somewhere from the Danube region).

Agree. I did not mean Albanians migrated from Danubian region, they are obviously native to Balkans. But E-V13 carriers I think did, and their expansion into Balkans was pretty late.
E-V13 looks to me main Thracian marker roughly speaking.

[Hulu]

You should be more polite, First Albanologist was a Croat. It's a fact Albanians lacks maritime vocabulary and Albanians are first time mentioned pretty late which means they lived in inaccesible mountains of deep Balkans and came closer to the sea later. We have ancient cities too so I don't see your point. But they weren't built by Croats.

what. no.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanology#Notable_Albanologists

I gotta say Feichy, you are not far from Serbs when it comes to opinions about our history.

[Jana]

This summary is pretty on point. Thracians and Dacians came from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gáva-Holigrady_culture
which has a more northern(north of Danube) origin compared to Illyrians which are related more to western med/Balkan culture.

Yes, but Illyrians as all IE tribes came from the north too. We don't even know if Illyrians were a thing genetically speaking. They probably were IMO, but more samples would help to be sure.

[Jana]

what. no.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanology#Notable_Albanologists

I gotta say Feichy, you are not far from Serbs when it comes to opinions about our history.

I like Albanians, but I won't buy BS about pure Illyrians origins. It's not true at all.

And yes, you should watch your mouth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milan_%C5%A0ufflay

"Milan Šufflay (8 November 1879 – 19 February 1931) was a Croatian historian and politician. He was one of the founders of Albanology .

On the request of the Albanian government and the Academy of Sciences in Vienna, he continued the work of Jireček and Thalloczy, editing the 3rd book of Codex albanicus, an archival collection. In 1931, he finally obtained a passport and travelled to Albania to sign a contract to work on Acta Albaniae.

Members of the regime organisation, Young Yugoslavia, under royal protection, ambushed him at his doorstep in Zagreb and broke his skull with a hammer, killing him. Then, they broke into his apartment and took the manuscript of the third book of Codex albanicus."

[Hulu]

I like Albanians, but I won't buy BS about pure Illyrians origins. It's not true at all.

And yes, you should watch your mouth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milan_%C5%A0ufflay

"Milan Šufflay (8 November 1879 – 19 February 1931) was a Croatian historian and politician. He was one of the founders of Albanology .

On the request of the Albanian government and the Academy of Sciences in Vienna, he continued the work of Jireček and Thalloczy, editing the 3rd book of Codex albanicus, an archival collection. In 1931, he finally obtained a passport and travelled to Albania to sign a contract to work on Acta Albaniae.

Members of the regime organisation, Young Yugoslavia, under royal protection, ambushed him at his doorstep in Zagreb and broke his skull with a hammer, killing him. Then, they broke into his apartment and took the manuscript of the third book of Codex albanicus."

Did you even look at the list I posted?

Don't be jelly about out Illyrian origins. Even your calculator showed you where we belong ;)

[Tommie]

I like the mystery of Albanian language, and I personally consider Albanians to be our true relatives in the Balkans along with Aromanians of course.

[Carpatz]

lol here we go again


https://youtu.be/sVxJ016xb4Q

[Jana]

Did you even look at the list I posted?

Don't be jelly about out Illyrian origins. Even your calculator showed you where we belong ;)

You can have the goatherder Illyrians, we have the sea ones :P

[Hulu]

You can have the goatherder Illyrians, we have the sea ones :P

We have the Albanoi, city folks. They were far too civilized to go pirating.

[Carpatz]

You can have the goatherder Illyrians, we have the sea ones :P

Mountain people > sea people

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

No need to get upset with one another over this topic. Unfortunately there is a dearth of literary evidence and without this evidence archaeology is hard to interpret, so no one is necessarily right or wrong. We have the same issue with pre-Roman Iberian tribes. What we do know for sure is that Northern Albania was Illyrian in ancient times, as was most of the former Yugoslavia.

[Jana]

Mountain people > sea people

Both are cool. City people too. But I am more Islander than anything else, so sea is closer to me.
Slavic pirates of Adriatic obviously learned sea mastery from older inhabitants they encountered in Dalmatia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domagoj_of_Croatia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narentines

[E1b1b]

Thracians are cooler than Illyrians though. Because they were a more savage people after all. Dacians actively practiced human sacrifice to send people to talk to zalmoxis lol.

[Jana]

Thracians are cooler than Illyrians though. Because they were a more savage people after all. Dacians actively practiced human sacrifice to send people to talk to zalmoxis lol.

I would not agree. I think Thracians were more civilised. Illyrian wars were longest and bloodiest Roman conquest after wars with Carthage.
Dacians were probably more barbarian than Thracians I assume.

[Varda]

Albanologist Kaplan Resuli Burović wrote about Baltic origin of proto-Albanians. According to him ancestors of Albanians migrated from Baltic to Carpathians and lived there as shepherds. In 681 part of Albanians with Bulgarians of khan Asparuh migrated from Carpathians to Thracian mountains and also live as shepherds there together with romanized Thracians and isolated from Slavs and Turkic Bulgarians. In early 10th century Albanians with Bulgarian tsar Simeon in one of the his military campaigns moved to Mat region in present day Albania as his auxiliary troops. According to Burović Albanians adopted many Romance words because they lived near romanized Thracians in Thracian/Bulgarian mountains.
Burović mentions overlap between Albanian and Lithuanian language.

https://www.google.com/search?q=kaplan+burovic+origin+of+albanian&oq=kaplan+&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j46i39j69i59l2j0i512l3j69i60.609 5j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[Varda]

Albanologist Kaplan Resuli Burović wrote about Baltic origin of proto-Albanians. According to him ancestors of Albanians migrated from Baltic to Carpathians and lived there as shepherds. In 681 part of Albanians with Bulgarians of khan Asparuh migrated from Carpathians to Thracian mountains and also live as shepherds there together with romanized Thracians and isolated from Slavs and Turkic Bulgarians. In early 10th century Albanians with Bulgarian tsar Simeon in one of the his military campaigns moved to Mat region in present day Albania as his auxiliary troops. According to Burović Albanians adopted many Romance words because they lived near romanized Thracians in Thracian/Bulgarian mountains.
Burović mentions overlap between Albanian and Lithuanian language.

https://www.google.com/search?q=kaplan+burovic+origin+of+albanian&oq=kaplan+&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j46i39j69i59l2j0i512l3j69i60.609 5j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

More details about Burović's work https://archive.org/stream/KaplanBurovi-WhoAreAlbanians/K.Burovic-Who_Are_Albanians_djvu.txt

[Carpatz]

Thracians are cooler than Illyrians though. Because they were a more savage people after all. Dacians actively practiced human sacrifice to send people to talk to zalmoxis lol.

They would threaten Zamolxis and chuck spears at him when it stormed to make him STFU, according to Herodotus.


93. ... the Getae are the bravest of the Thracians and the most just. 94. They believe they are immortal forever living in the following sense: they think they do not die and that the one who dies joins Zalmoxis, a divine being; some call this same divine being Gebeleizis. Every four years, they send a messenger to Zalmoxis, who is chosen by chance. They ask him to tell Zalmoxis what they want on that occasion. The mission is performed in the following way: men standing there for that purpose hold three spears; other people take the one who is sent to Zalmoxis by his hands and feet and fling him in the air on the spears. If he dies pierced, they think that the divinity is going to help them; if he does not die, it is he who is accused and they declare that he is a bad person. And, after he has been charged, they send another one. The messenger is told the requests while he is still alive. The same Thracians, on other occasions, when he thunders and lightens, shoot with arrows up in the air against the sky and menace the divinity because they think there is no god other than their own.

[E1b1b]

They would threaten Zamolxis and chuck spears at him when it stormed to make him STFU, according to Herodotus.

The chad Dacians vs the virgin pirate Illyrians.

[Varda]

This Romanian guy from the most frequent Serbian forum Krstarica once said that language of the ancestors of Romanians before romanization was similar to Albanian https://forum.krstarica.com/members/pravi-vlah.225446/

He is Romanian from Serbian part of Banat and not Vlach from East Serbia, regardless his nick "Pravi Vlah" means "real Vlach." He is Romanian nationalist.

[Varda]

The chad Dacians vs the virgin pirate Illyrians.

Morlachs were chads and lost Illyrians according to this video :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morlachs


https://youtu.be/XhqbW3woI4Q

[Cristiano viejo]

there is zero real relevant connection, Romanian uses more Turkic, Slavic, Hungarian or German words..

I doubt Romanian uses more Turkish words, near 5.000
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/53b4/8f3333f0acc2cb1da900c6792e6e7cccc0a8.pdf

[Hulu]

I doubt Romanian uses more Turkish words, near 5.000
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/53b4/8f3333f0acc2cb1da900c6792e6e7cccc0a8.pdf

lol. First time I hear we say hajvan for animal. We say kafshe. Or tiger kaplan? I thought that was the lion. Anyway, we use tiger. It's full of inaccuracies CV. Some words are correct but most aren't.
Oh and maniac apparently it's turkish too. English got it from them too :lol:
breeze - meltem wtf, first time I hear that word

[Carpatz]

lol. First time I hear we say hajvan for animal. We say kafshe. Or tiger kaplan? I thought that was the lion. Anyway, we use tiger. It's full of inaccuracies CV. Some words are correct but most aren't.
Oh and maniac apparently it's turkish too. English got it from them too :lol:
breeze - meltem wtf, first time I hear that word

Hajvan is used in Kosovo as an insult iirc.

[rothaer]

Albanologist Kaplan Resuli Burović wrote about Baltic origin of proto-Albanians. According to him ancestors of Albanians migrated from Baltic to Carpathians and lived there as shepherds. In 681 part of Albanians with Bulgarians of khan Asparuh migrated from Carpathians to Thracian mountains and also live as shepherds there together with romanized Thracians and isolated from Slavs and Turkic Bulgarians. In early 10th century Albanians with Bulgarian tsar Simeon in one of the his military campaigns moved to Mat region in present day Albania as his auxiliary troops. According to Burović Albanians adopted many Romance words because they lived near romanized Thracians in Thracian/Bulgarian mountains.
Burović mentions overlap between Albanian and Lithuanian language.

https://www.google.com/search?q=kaplan+burovic+origin+of+albanian&oq=kaplan+&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j46i39j69i59l2j0i512l3j69i60.609 5j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Can you just tell when Albanians according to this teory shall have moved from the Baltic Sea to the Carpaths? I don't really get into the book technically. It sounds quixotic. Also that strange quoted statement from the Albanian Academic intistute or what it exactly is on tzhe first pages of the book.

[Hulu]

Hajvan is used in Kosovo as an insult iirc.

They also use shtaze for animal, in adittion to kafshe. Hajvan is used as an insult but mostly older people. dont think the under 40s use it even there.

[Cristiano viejo]

They also use shtaze for animal, in adittion to kafshe. Hajvan is used as an insult but mostly older people. dont think the under 40s use it even there.

I think many foreign words tend to dissapear in their host language. I have the example of the Arabic words in Spanish. According our dictionary we have thousands of them, but most of them ceased to be used maaaaany centuries ago, nobody knows it, never have heard it not even one fuckin time in his life, yet it appears in any list about Arabic words in Spanish language, not sure why.

[Novi Pazar]

Albanian is like English. It has a 60% Romance vocabulary but a non-Romance grammar.

Is it because Albanians have some Norman/Varangian ancestry?

[Novi Pazar]

in Romanian language doesn't go with genetics, language was recently imposed politically while genetically only southwest Romanians are Vlach, the others are mix of everything that were just linguistically Vlachized, and that happened very recently for many places, even as recently as a few decades ago (large chunks of Wallachia were Bulgarian speaking in the countryside, not to mention the hundreds of Slavic speaking villages across the country (Ukrainian, Russian, Polish, Slovak, Czech, Serb), or the million Germans that fled a few decades ago, or the two million Hungarians still living in Transylvania/Szeleky land/Partium etc).

a connection could have been only there where Vlachs came from, in the deep Balkans, northern Greece/Macedonia/Timok, but Vlachs don't descend from Dacians/Thracians, they descend from Levantine and Near Eastern colonists brought by the Romans to today's northern Greece/Macedonia

Serb ancestry of Romanians is very significant, towns are called Sarba, Sirba etc are all over Romania. Romanians have the Serbian Kolo called Sarba.

[Novi Pazar]

Look everyone, modern Shqiptars are a mix of many from Berbers, Latins, Vlachs, Normans, Armenians, Greeks, Serbs (main ancestry) to Arabs and Turks. Much of Albanian language has Germanic and Baltic.

[ixulescu]

That's the dumbest bullshit I've ever read. Take your psychiatric pills instead of spreading genetically inaccurate and completely nonsensical Serbian propaganda and Albanian have actually close to 0% Western Asian DNA, they are fully European so they really have 0% Berber, Armenian, Arab and Turkish blood, literally 0%. Meanwhile Serbians are highly mixed with Gypsies and Greeks that's why you notice some types brown and high in Romani blood. Your Slavo-Illyrian or Slavo-Thracian blood just puts you more northern. You are really delusional + dumb. Another braindead Serb bozo ��go bootlick your armeno-laz-med gypsoid Anatoroman "OrThODox BrOthErZ" who are partially asian, you are a traitor to Europeans.

^ the thoughts of the most inclusive Celtillyrian blonde that has ever lived

[Tommie]

Dacians were probably more barbarian than Thracians I assume.
Dacians were actually pretty developed based on what was studied about them. They're successors to the Cucuteni culture, one of the oldest Neolithic civilizations.




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uz6Orfd4gIM




Ancient Dacians
(https://www.transylvaniaworld.com/concepts/ancient-dacians.html)


Dacian Architecture on the Column of Trajan (https://scholarworks.iupui.edu/handle/1805/26007)



Post-Roman Dacian material culture continued to reveal a strong sense of "Romanness"

https://www.worldhistory.org/dacia/

[Ayetooey]

That's the dumbest bullshit I've ever read. Take your psychiatric pills instead of spreading genetically inaccurate and completely nonsensical Serbian propaganda and Albanian have actually close to 0% Western Asian DNA, they are fully European so they really have 0% Berber, Armenian, Arab and Turkish blood, literally 0%. Meanwhile Serbians are highly mixed with Gypsies and Greeks that's why you notice some types brown and high in Romani blood. Your Slavo-Illyrian or Slavo-Thracian blood just puts you more northern. You are really delusional + dumb. Another braindead Serb bozo ��go bootlick your armeno-laz-med gypsoid Anatoloroman "OrThODox BrOthErZ" who are partially asian, you are a traitor to Europeans.

You seem like a rational, respectable and well educated individual of Swiss-German and English descent.

[Novi Pazar]

That's the dumbest bullshit I've ever read. Take your psychiatric pills instead of spreading genetically inaccurate and completely nonsensical Serbian propaganda and Albanian have actually close to 0% Western Asian DNA, they are fully European so they really have 0% Berber, Armenian, Arab and Turkish blood, literally 0%. Meanwhile Serbians are highly mixed with Gypsies and Greeks that's why you notice some types brown and high in Romani blood. Your Slavo-Illyrian or Slavo-Thracian blood just puts you more northern. You are really delusional + dumb. Another braindead Serb bozo ��go bootlick your armeno-laz-med gypsoid Anatoloroman "OrThODox BrOthErZ" who are partially asian, you are a traitor to Europeans.

It’s in the language, not my fault! Tell me, why do some Shqiptar tribes wear strikingly similar turbans as North African Berbers? There are words of Berber origin in Shqiptar.

[Novi Pazar]

You seem like a rational, respectable and well educated individual of Swiss-German and English descent.

Yes, very educated individual of Swiss-German and English descent…..smart Shqiptar.

[Varda]

That's the dumbest bullshit I've ever read. Take your psychiatric pills instead of spreading genetically inaccurate and completely nonsensical Serbian propaganda and Albanian have actually close to 0% Western Asian DNA, they are fully European so they really have 0% Berber, Armenian, Arab and Turkish blood, literally 0%. Meanwhile Serbians are highly mixed with Gypsies and Greeks that's why you notice some types brown and high in Romani blood. Your Slavo-Illyrian or Slavo-Thracian blood just puts you more northern. You are really delusional + dumb. Another braindead Serb bozo ��go bootlick your armeno-laz-med gypsoid Anatoloroman "OrThODox BrOthErZ" who are partially asian, you are a traitor to Europeans.

Stupid Shiptar idiotic troll!

Here is y dna of 2086 ethnic Serbs from all parts of former Yugoslavia, and there is no H haplogroup which is typical for Gypsies. Also "Indo-Aryan" R1a-Z93 doesn't exist, all branches of R1a among Serbs are Slavic.
https://www.poreklo.rs/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/YDNA-EthnicSerbs-za-Poreklo-1.png

Autosomally South Asian component is just voice in Serbs and came from stepe admixture. Most of the Europeans score higher South Asian than Serbs.
South Asian score among some Europeans on average:
- Serb 0.55
- Hungarian 0.9
- Sorb_Lusatia 1.16
- Swedish 1.41
- Romania_average 0.64
- Bosniak 0.79
- Spanish 0.58
- Polish 0.96
- Russian_average 1.12
- French 0.63
- English 0.71
- Irish 1.37
- Icelandic 0.83
Source http://vahaduo.genetics.ovh/k13-vahaduo.htm

[Novi Pazar]

^ talking about Genetics, awhile ago l was reading about these Shqipto-Albanoi, and in the city of Tirana apparently Y-DNA H is roughly 7% of the population

[Laku]

Pretty good points. E-V13 also points to Danubian expansion. Albanians as ethnic group most likely formed somewhere in central Balkans, in transitional Illyrian-Thracian zone, somewhere around Kosovo.
They are partly Illyrian, but their Illyrian ancestors were mountain Illyrians and not coastal ones.

Coastal Illyrians were absorbed by Dalmatian Croats who continued with their nautical and pirate traditions.

Main three Albanian hgs are all Paleo-Balkan, but J2b2 clades and eastern R1b were found in ancient inhabitants of Croatia and in Illyrian tribe of southern Italy, while E-V13 was absent.
However Romanized Moesians from Serbia (Moesians were Thracian tribe) were E-V13 heavy.

So they are mix of Paleo-Balkanic tribes, Romans and Slavs mainly but everything points to their origins somewhere in interior, far from the sea and in contact with eastern Balkans and Danubian cultures as well.
They are land of the eagles, a mountain folk.

I don`t think so. Following the reasoning of Winnifrith Albanians are somewhere from central Balkans close to Romania meanwhile the Vlachs are native to Albania. lol

[Ion Basescul]

Impressive amount of Romanian-Albanian bilinguals in this thread. Wow

[Laku]

Serb ancestry of Romanians is very significant, towns are called Sarba, Sirba etc are all over Romania. Romanians have the Serbian Kolo called Sarba.

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/P/1490917799.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_SX500_.jpg

[Novi Pazar]

^ Serbs were far and wide. Serbs and Jews have been connected for thousands of years, just ask Netanyahu and Rivlin. Histories, mainstream ones, are simply fairy tales for the benefit of our current world powers hidden behind a veil.

Albanian history begins with proto Shqiptars of multiple ethnicities from Sicily (Arabs, Berbers, Latins, Normans, Varangians) who were brought over by Maniakes (Armenian) in 1043AD, then again Normans under Bohemond settle and contribute to Shqiptar enthos. I understand even Berbers from Luceria came to Shqiperia. Point being your origins are from multiple sources with Serbian being primary, but a combination from Caucasus, Iran to Asia Minor, Arabia, North Africa and Northern Europeans. Look at all those Shqiptar scripts you have like Elbasan etc….

The Shqiptars are a blend of multiple peoples unified by the Jesuits-Vatican and Austro-Hungary, uncovered by Teodora Toleva in 1999. All this Romanian Dacian and Illyria origins is a B.S.

[Novi Pazar]

Impressive amount of Romanian-Albanian bilinguals in this thread. Wow

Albanians have nothing to do with Romanians except for their Slavic connection.

[Laku]

^ Serbs were far and wide. Serbs and Jews have been connected for thousands of years, just ask Netanyahu and Rivlin. Histories, mainstream ones, are simply fairy tales for the benefit of our current world powers hidden behind a veil.

Albanian history begins with proto Shqiptars of multiple ethnicities from Sicily (Arabs, Berbers, Latins, Normans, Varangians) who were brought over by Maniakes (Armenian) in 1043AD, then again Normans under Bohemond settle and contribute to Shqiptar enthos. I understand even Berbers from Luceria came to Shqiperia. Point being your origins are from multiple sources with Serbian being primary, but a combination from Caucasus, Iran to Asia Minor, Arabia, North Africa and Northern Europeans. Look at all those Shqiptar scripts you have like Elbasan etc….

The Shqiptars are a blend of multiple peoples unified by the Jesuits-Vatican and Austro-Hungary, uncovered by Teodora Toleva in 1999. All this Romanian Dacian and Illyria origins is a B.S.

What exactly uncovered this Toleva?

[Novi Pazar]

https://bukinist.al/en/3158_teodora-toleva

[Laku]

https://bukinist.al/en/3158_teodora-toleva

What exactly she said? Can you quote her? Or you have never read her book and just copy paste from other forums and social media?

[Laku]

https://bukinist.al/en/3158_teodora-toleva

Forget my question. I started to serach through threads opened by you and now i know what kind of poster you are.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/search.php?searchid=13327458

[Novi Pazar]

^ please focus on Teodora Toleva, Albania history was penned in Vienna, the proof was there which l suspected long ago. Albanians are a mishmash of people of various origins (Berbers, Arabs, Armenians, Turks, Iranians, Turks, SERBS, Greeks,Normans, Varangians , Latins and Vlachs)

[Jana]

New Illyrian samples from Croatia and some from Slovenia all came out J2b-L238. E-V13 was not found, but it was found in Hungary, and what I said about Danubian connection was correct:


We should assign the cultural context of each sample, as described in the Supplementary Information:

I18832 (E-V13), La Tène, Hungary
I16272 (E-V13), La Tène, Hungary
I18527 (E-V13), La Tène, Hungary
I14465 (E-V13), Vekerzug culture ("Scytho-Celtic mix"), Slovakia

I4998 (J2b) : Urnfield (?), Hungary
I22940 (J2b): Hallstatt Period, affinity uncertain, Slovenia
I5691 (J2b): Urnfield (?), Slovenia
I24345 (J2b): Liburnian, Croatia
I26726 (J2b): uncertain cultural context, Croatia
I23911 (J2b): interpreted as a Japodian by older literature, Croatia
I24638 (J2b): interpreted as a Japodian by older literature, Croatia
I24639 (J2b): interpreted as a Japodian by older literature, Croatia
I24882 (J2b): interpreted as a Japodian by older literature, Croatia
I23995 (J2b) interpreted as a Japodian by older literature, Croatia
I26742 (J2b): uncertain IA cultural context, Croatia

Time will tell, and I might be wrong, but things are really not looking good for E-V13 being native to the Western Balkans. Plus, the confirmed Illyrians of this study are all J2b, and along with the Daunian study, it seems that the "true" Illyrians were primarily J2b, I-M223, R-Z29758 and some J2a.

E-V13 clearly comes from a zone extending from the Pannonian plain, the Carpathians, and all the way to the Black Sea. This is corroborated by previous ancient samples with E-V13, which were a Thracian and a Scythian. Riverman was correct to say that these Celtic cultures got it from further East, likely from Scythians and Central Balkan groups. If Greeks came from the East, as linguistic theory suggests, it is not unlikely that they could have picked up some E-V13, although this has to be confirmed.

Importantly, this paper blasts any possibility that the Danubian Limes E-V13 samples were transplanted Illyrians. They were simply native Moesians (Thracians), as both their archaeological and genetic context suggested.

Albanian pre-Slavic part is mix of western and eastern Balkan tribes, far from being simply Illyrian.

[Novi Pazar]

^ Y DNA I is the only native male lineage of Europe!

[MandM]

New Illyrian samples from Croatia and some from Slovenia all came out J2b-L238. E-V13 was not found, but it was found in Hungary, and what I said about Danubian connection was correct:



Albanian pre-Slavic part is mix of western and eastern Balkan tribes, far from being simply Illyrian.

I have read that on forums and internet that it looks like E-V13 is Thracian and not Illyrian that its is eastbalkan and not west, but of course its just a theory, but it looks like more and more goes that way

[PAGANE]

In Italian the Albanians are called Arberishtja or Arberichte, in Greek - Arvantis (Arvanite), hence in Turkish - arnavut. The internationally known name of today's Albanians is formed from the common basis of these words. This name probably comes from the ancient name of the Arbanon Valley, located along today's Shkumbi River in the middle of the country. In antiquity, the Illyrian tribe "Albanians" lived in the same area, whose name is probably given to the valley. The earliest mention of this tribe is from the 2nd century BC. in "History of the World", written by Polybius, which talks about a city called Arbon, located in present-day central Albania. Its Illyrian population is called Arbanios and Arbanitai. In the first century AD. Pliny mentions the Illyrian tribe Olbonense. In the II century AD. Ptolemy, a geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, drew a map of Illyria showing the town of Albanopolis northeast of Drach and mentioning that the Illyrian tribe Albanoi lived around the town. There is a time difference of about 10 centuries between the last mention of ancient (non-Hellenized and non-Latinized) Illyrians and the first mention of today's Albanians. The Illyrians, already a fully Hellenized tribe, were last mentioned in the 7th century in the Miracula Sancti Demetri (7th century). road in 1043, although for centuries Illyria was part of the Roman and Byzantine empires. The Byzantine princess Anna Comnina wrote in detail about the modern Albanians in her chronicles about the wars of her father Alexius Comnenus (1081-1118) with the Normans. The period from the 7th to the 10th century is critical for the origin of modern Albanians. Before this interval, the ancient Illyrians had already been melted down to the point of indistinguishability by the Greeks. During this interval, invasions and settlements of Proto-Slavs, Avars, Kutrigurs and Proto-Bulgarians began, which completely changed the ethnic composition of most of the Balkan Peninsula, including the region of Illyria, Peonia and Macedonia. After this interval, Anna Komnina spoke of a new population in the region of present-day Northern Albania, ethnically different from that of the then Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs. To denote it, she resurrects the above-mentioned ancient term Arbanitai or Arbanon, which has been forgotten for nearly 10 centuries. This is probably an example of the well-known Byzantine tradition of naming new tribes and peoples after their old ancestors, although there is no ethnic connection between them. In the same way, the first Bulgarians on the other side of the Danube were called Huns, Mizis, Scythians according to the chronicler's preferences. To emphasize the great temporal (and possibly ethnic) difference between the ancient Albanians (pure Illyrians of the 2nd century BC-2nd century AD), the medieval Greek-Latinized Illyrians (V-VII centuries). AD) and modern Albanians (XI - XXI century) in the text below will use the name Shiptars as equivalent to "modern Albanians" There are many theories about the ethnic origin of the Shiptars and the type of their language .On the one hand, it is claimed that the Albanians and the Albanian language have Illyrian origins. In this regard, it is stated that some ancient names from this area can be explained in words from modern Albanian: Dardania from dardhe (pear), Dalmatia = dele <delme (sheep), Dimalum = di mal <dy male (two mountains) , Bardhyl <bardhë (white), Daz <dash (ram) and others. On the other hand, it is stated that the Illyrian language is dead and very few words of it are preserved. Only a few well-known Illyrian words are mentioned, which can be explained in words from today's Albanian: peli = pleq (old), aspetos = shpejtë (fast). In my opinion, the Albanian Diel - Sun may be a borrowing from the peons, in which the main god - the Sun was called Dyalos (Dryalos). The language of the Mesaps, an ancient Western Balkan tribe, is relatively well known, as more than 600 inscriptions in their language, written in Greek letters, have been found in southern Italy. There are claims of kinship between Illyrians and Mesapis, but so far this has not been proven. Only a few Mesapian words resemble words from modern Albanian: bije-bilie - girl; dardhë - pear; dele (delme) - sheep; dallendysche - swallow. More or less in modern Bulgarian there are so many words from the Latinized language of the Thracians (chimney, goose and saddlebags, bisagi - Latin remains), but no serious scholar claims that modern Bulgarian is a descendant of the Thracian language. In fact, such a play on words is simply meaningless and proves nothing. You can choose between two Indo-European languages, modern or extinct, and find dozens of words that have the same sound and meaning in both languages. For example, about 15 such words have been found in dead Avestan and modern English, but this does not mean that the English are descendants of the Avestans. Despite the extreme scarcity of evidence, official Albanian historiography accepts this hypothesis, arguing that "Albanian is the only living indigenous language in the Balkans spoken in all areas where Illyrian was once spoken, while other local languages ​​(Mesapian, Thracian-Dacian, Ancient Macedonian, Phrygian, Ancient Greek, even Illyrian ?!) are dead ". Apart from the local "Illyrian hypothesis", there are other hypotheses about a more distant, but still Balkan origin of the Shiptars. The Bulgarian scientist Ivan Duridanov [Duridanov, Ivan. The Language of the Thracians notes that the names for sea and fishing terms in modern Albanian are of foreign origin, suggesting that Proto-Albanians lived far from the sea. According to him, the Proto-Albanians are not Illyrians, because the Illyrians have lived on the shores of the Adriatic for thousands of years and are known as excellent seafarers, but Dardanians. In fact, the Dardanians are also an Illyrian tribe and they should "understand" the Illyrian language, including its maritime terms. The second hypothesis about the origin of the Proto-Albanians is expressed by the Bulgarian specialist in comparative linguistics V. Georgiev. He subdivided the Paleo-Balkan languages ​​into several closely related language communities: Illyrian-Macedonian, Greek, Phrygian-Armenian, Thracian-Pelasgian and Daco-Moesian. All these hypotheses do not agree with the existence of the so-called language line of Konstantin Jireček (Konstantin Jireček: Die Romanen in den Städten Dalmatiens während des Mittelalters, I, 42-44). This mental historical line starts from the middle of today's Albania, passes along the northern border of today's Macedonia and goes east on the ridge of Stara Planina. The ancient indigenous population of the Balkans living south of this line was practically completely Hellenized as early as the first centuries AD, while that of the north was Latinized. The Illyrians in the area of ​​today's Albania welcomed the Roman conquerors not as a primitive tribe, but as subjects of an ancient Illyrian kingdom with a hereditary monarchy. The Romans waged more than 100 years of war with this kingdom before finally defeating it in 168 BC and including it in the province of Iliricum until 395, or a total of 563. The fate of the Thracians and Macedonians is similar. . In much less time (about 350 years) the Macedonians and Thracians north of the Balkans were Latinized and began to speak Latin, and those south of the Balkans were Hellenized. How under these conditions the Proto-Albanians avoided complete Hellenization and especially Latinization to the point of complete isolation is a complete mystery.If modern Albanians came from such Illyrians, they would have to speak corrupted Greek or Latin. Instead, they speak a language completely different from that of Greeks and Latins.
In modern Albanian there are practically no borrowings from the ancient Greek language!
There are two extreme opinions about the presence of Latin borrowings in the language of the Scythians.
One group of researchers claims that there are many but strongly altered Latin borrowings in the language of the Scythians. In this regard, research on the lexicon of the Albanian language from the 70s of the XIX century is mentioned, in which it is claimed that out of 5110 Albanian words 1420 have Latin-Romance origin, 1180 are of Ottoman-Turkish origin, 540 - of Bulgarian (e.g. south south, slave slave), 840 Modern Greek. The remaining 1,130 words are considered to be Albanian, of which 400 are Indo-European and 730 are of unknown origin (Trautman Reinhold, 1948). Other authors (H. Pedersen, N. Jokl, E. Chabei) give a higher share of the original Albanian words in the lexicon of this language. According to these authors, Latin vocabulary entered the speech of the local population in the era of Roman rule in the Balkans, but has since undergone radical changes. Apart from the omission of the last syllables, there has been a complete change in the phonetic appearance of the bases of the words, which makes them almost unrecognizable. For example, in the dialect geg ranё, in the dialect tosk rёrё (sand) <lat. Arēna (sand); geg. vner, longing. vrer (bile) <lat. venēnum; kal (horse) <lat. caballus, gjel (rooster) <lat. gallus; ar (gold) <lat. aurum; kofshё (thigh) <lat. soha; pus (well) <lat. puteus; kushёrí (cousin) <lat. consobrīnus; mik (friend) <lat. amīcus; fqi (neighbor) <lat. vicēnus; gaz (joy) <lat. gaudium; fe (faith) <lat. fidēs; lter «altar» <lat. altare; ferr «hell» <lat. infernum, etc. However, it is quite possible that these words, or most of them, were adopted in the late Middle Ages, when the majority of Albanians were Catholics. Today, about 20% of Albanians in Albania are Catholics.
The above circumstances justify the second group of researchers to claim that in modern Albanian there are virtually no (or very few) borrowings from early Greek and early Latin (Cabej, Eqrem "Die aelteren Wohnsitze der Albaner auf der Balkanhalbinsel im Lichte der Sprache und Ortsnamen" , Florence, 1961; Eric P. Hamp, University of Chigaco The Position of Albanian (Ancient IE dialects, Proceedings of the Conference on IE linguistics held at the University of California, Los Angeles, April 25-27, 1963, ed. By Henrik Birnbaum and Jaan Puhvel) If modern Albanians are descended solely or mainly from an ancient local population, they should have a number of early Greek and Latin words in their language. At least a significant share of early Greek vocabulary. the Thracians south of the Balkans.
Archaeological evidence is particularly important, denying the direct connection of modern Albanians with the ancient local population. The most discussed are the group of necropolises in the central Albanian region between the towns of Komani and Kruja, which contemporary Albanian historians are very biased towards as a link between the ancient Illyrians and the modern Shiptars. However, an objective analysis of burial practices in these necropolises shows the opposite, namely that they are associated with the settlement of large groups of people, diverse in origin, coming from the Middle Danube (W. Bowden. The Construction of Identities in post-Roman Albania In: L. Lavan, W. Bowden (ed.) Theory and Practice in Late antique Archeology, Brill-Leiden - Boston, 2003, 57 - 78, Grozdanova, GS The population of Southern Bulgaria VI-IX centuries. (according to archeological data) The necropolises of the Kumani-Kruja culture have a pronounced pagan, non-Christian ritual practice with burial equipment of a population that is part of a large community practicing similar burial rituals, which includes Avars, Slavs or even Lombards. and the spread of this group of necropolises took place in areas where only Christian burials without inventory had been practiced for at least 200 years (Bowden 2003, 67-68). The map of their distribution, which goes far beyond the borders of Albania and includes neighboring regions such as Macedonia, northern Greece, Bulgaria (Bowden 2003, 62), can also be pointed out. Parallels of the finds are found in the Byzantine centers in Constantinople, Athens, Corinth, Sicily, southern, northern Italy, as well as in Hungary and Crimea. Particularly characteristic inventory in the graves are the belt pendants found in Avar-Slavic contexts, Frankish and Lombard graves and in the area of ​​the Saltovo-Mayak culture (Bowden 2003, 59 -60; Garam 1995, 312; Garam 1980, 161-180; Curta 2006,105).
These facts indicate the existence of a very weak ethnic connection of the Albanians with the ancient Illyrians. Most likely, the Albanians contain a substrate of local, inherited population and a massive superstratum of newcomers of Indo-European origin. The origin of this superstratum must be sought in an area outside the Greek and Roman states and influence, ie outside the Balkan Peninsula. Interestingly, such hypotheses about the distant, non-Balkan (Celtic, Asian) origin of the Albanians have already been proposed.

[Laku]

In Italian the Albanians are called Arberishtja or Arberichte, in Greek - Arvantis (Arvanite), hence in Turkish - arnavut. The internationally known name of today's Albanians is formed from the common basis of these words. This name probably comes from the ancient name of the Arbanon Valley, located along today's Shkumbi River in the middle of the country. In antiquity, the Illyrian tribe "Albanians" lived in the same area, whose name is probably given to the valley. The earliest mention of this tribe is from the 2nd century BC. in "History of the World", written by Polybius, which talks about a city called Arbon, located in present-day central Albania. Its Illyrian population is called Arbanios and Arbanitai. In the first century AD. Pliny mentions the Illyrian tribe Olbonense. In the II century AD. Ptolemy, a geographer and astronomer from Alexandria, drew a map of Illyria showing the town of Albanopolis northeast of Drach and mentioning that the Illyrian tribe Albanoi lived around the town. There is a time difference of about 10 centuries between the last mention of ancient (non-Hellenized and non-Latinized) Illyrians and the first mention of today's Albanians. The Illyrians, already a fully Hellenized tribe, were last mentioned in the 7th century in the Miracula Sancti Demetri (7th century). road in 1043, although for centuries Illyria was part of the Roman and Byzantine empires. The Byzantine princess Anna Comnina wrote in detail about the modern Albanians in her chronicles about the wars of her father Alexius Comnenus (1081-1118) with the Normans. The period from the 7th to the 10th century is critical for the origin of modern Albanians. Before this interval, the ancient Illyrians had already been melted down to the point of indistinguishability by the Greeks. During this interval, invasions and settlements of Proto-Slavs, Avars, Kutrigurs and Proto-Bulgarians began, which completely changed the ethnic composition of most of the Balkan Peninsula, including the region of Illyria, Peonia and Macedonia. After this interval, Anna Komnina spoke of a new population in the region of present-day Northern Albania, ethnically different from that of the then Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs. To denote it, she resurrects the above-mentioned ancient term Arbanitai or Arbanon, which has been forgotten for nearly 10 centuries. This is probably an example of the well-known Byzantine tradition of naming new tribes and peoples after their old ancestors, although there is no ethnic connection between them. In the same way, the first Bulgarians on the other side of the Danube were called Huns, Mizis, Scythians according to the chronicler's preferences. To emphasize the great temporal (and possibly ethnic) difference between the ancient Albanians (pure Illyrians of the 2nd century BC-2nd century AD), the medieval Greek-Latinized Illyrians (V-VII centuries). AD) and modern Albanians (XI - XXI century) in the text below will use the name Shiptars as equivalent to "modern Albanians" There are many theories about the ethnic origin of the Shiptars and the type of their language .On the one hand, it is claimed that the Albanians and the Albanian language have Illyrian origins. In this regard, it is stated that some ancient names from this area can be explained in words from modern Albanian: Dardania from dardhe (pear), Dalmatia = dele <delme (sheep), Dimalum = di mal <dy male (two mountains) , Bardhyl <bardhë (white), Daz <dash (ram) and others. On the other hand, it is stated that the Illyrian language is dead and very few words of it are preserved. Only a few well-known Illyrian words are mentioned, which can be explained in words from today's Albanian: peli = pleq (old), aspetos = shpejtë (fast). In my opinion, the Albanian Diel - Sun may be a borrowing from the peons, in which the main god - the Sun was called Dyalos (Dryalos). The language of the Mesaps, an ancient Western Balkan tribe, is relatively well known, as more than 600 inscriptions in their language, written in Greek letters, have been found in southern Italy. There are claims of kinship between Illyrians and Mesapis, but so far this has not been proven. Only a few Mesapian words resemble words from modern Albanian: bije-bilie - girl; dardhë - pear; dele (delme) - sheep; dallendysche - swallow. More or less in modern Bulgarian there are so many words from the Latinized language of the Thracians (chimney, goose and saddlebags, bisagi - Latin remains), but no serious scholar claims that modern Bulgarian is a descendant of the Thracian language. In fact, such a play on words is simply meaningless and proves nothing. You can choose between two Indo-European languages, modern or extinct, and find dozens of words that have the same sound and meaning in both languages. For example, about 15 such words have been found in dead Avestan and modern English, but this does not mean that the English are descendants of the Avestans. Despite the extreme scarcity of evidence, official Albanian historiography accepts this hypothesis, arguing that "Albanian is the only living indigenous language in the Balkans spoken in all areas where Illyrian was once spoken, while other local languages ​​(Mesapian, Thracian-Dacian, Ancient Macedonian, Phrygian, Ancient Greek, even Illyrian ?!) are dead ". Apart from the local "Illyrian hypothesis", there are other hypotheses about a more distant, but still Balkan origin of the Shiptars. The Bulgarian scientist Ivan Duridanov [Duridanov, Ivan. The Language of the Thracians notes that the names for sea and fishing terms in modern Albanian are of foreign origin, suggesting that Proto-Albanians lived far from the sea. According to him, the Proto-Albanians are not Illyrians, because the Illyrians have lived on the shores of the Adriatic for thousands of years and are known as excellent seafarers, but Dardanians. In fact, the Dardanians are also an Illyrian tribe and they should "understand" the Illyrian language, including its maritime terms. The second hypothesis about the origin of the Proto-Albanians is expressed by the Bulgarian specialist in comparative linguistics V. Georgiev. He subdivided the Paleo-Balkan languages ​​into several closely related language communities: Illyrian-Macedonian, Greek, Phrygian-Armenian, Thracian-Pelasgian and Daco-Moesian. All these hypotheses do not agree with the existence of the so-called language line of Konstantin Jireček (Konstantin Jireček: Die Romanen in den Städten Dalmatiens während des Mittelalters, I, 42-44). This mental historical line starts from the middle of today's Albania, passes along the northern border of today's Macedonia and goes east on the ridge of Stara Planina. The ancient indigenous population of the Balkans living south of this line was practically completely Hellenized as early as the first centuries AD, while that of the north was Latinized. The Illyrians in the area of ​​today's Albania welcomed the Roman conquerors not as a primitive tribe, but as subjects of an ancient Illyrian kingdom with a hereditary monarchy. The Romans waged more than 100 years of war with this kingdom before finally defeating it in 168 BC and including it in the province of Iliricum until 395, or a total of 563. The fate of the Thracians and Macedonians is similar. . In much less time (about 350 years) the Macedonians and Thracians north of the Balkans were Latinized and began to speak Latin, and those south of the Balkans were Hellenized. How under these conditions the Proto-Albanians avoided complete Hellenization and especially Latinization to the point of complete isolation is a complete mystery.If modern Albanians came from such Illyrians, they would have to speak corrupted Greek or Latin. Instead, they speak a language completely different from that of Greeks and Latins.
In modern Albanian there are practically no borrowings from the ancient Greek language!
There are two extreme opinions about the presence of Latin borrowings in the language of the Scythians.
One group of researchers claims that there are many but strongly altered Latin borrowings in the language of the Scythians. In this regard, research on the lexicon of the Albanian language from the 70s of the XIX century is mentioned, in which it is claimed that out of 5110 Albanian words 1420 have Latin-Romance origin, 1180 are of Ottoman-Turkish origin, 540 - of Bulgarian (e.g. south south, slave slave), 840 Modern Greek. The remaining 1,130 words are considered to be Albanian, of which 400 are Indo-European and 730 are of unknown origin (Trautman Reinhold, 1948). Other authors (H. Pedersen, N. Jokl, E. Chabei) give a higher share of the original Albanian words in the lexicon of this language. According to these authors, Latin vocabulary entered the speech of the local population in the era of Roman rule in the Balkans, but has since undergone radical changes. Apart from the omission of the last syllables, there has been a complete change in the phonetic appearance of the bases of the words, which makes them almost unrecognizable. For example, in the dialect geg ranё, in the dialect tosk rёrё (sand) <lat. Arēna (sand); geg. vner, longing. vrer (bile) <lat. venēnum; kal (horse) <lat. caballus, gjel (rooster) <lat. gallus; ar (gold) <lat. aurum; kofshё (thigh) <lat. soha; pus (well) <lat. puteus; kushёrí (cousin) <lat. consobrīnus; mik (friend) <lat. amīcus; fqi (neighbor) <lat. vicēnus; gaz (joy) <lat. gaudium; fe (faith) <lat. fidēs; lter «altar» <lat. altare; ferr «hell» <lat. infernum, etc. However, it is quite possible that these words, or most of them, were adopted in the late Middle Ages, when the majority of Albanians were Catholics. Today, about 20% of Albanians in Albania are Catholics.
The above circumstances justify the second group of researchers to claim that in modern Albanian there are virtually no (or very few) borrowings from early Greek and early Latin (Cabej, Eqrem "Die aelteren Wohnsitze der Albaner auf der Balkanhalbinsel im Lichte der Sprache und Ortsnamen" , Florence, 1961; Eric P. Hamp, University of Chigaco The Position of Albanian (Ancient IE dialects, Proceedings of the Conference on IE linguistics held at the University of California, Los Angeles, April 25-27, 1963, ed. By Henrik Birnbaum and Jaan Puhvel) If modern Albanians are descended solely or mainly from an ancient local population, they should have a number of early Greek and Latin words in their language. At least a significant share of early Greek vocabulary. the Thracians south of the Balkans.
Archaeological evidence is particularly important, denying the direct connection of modern Albanians with the ancient local population. The most discussed are the group of necropolises in the central Albanian region between the towns of Komani and Kruja, which contemporary Albanian historians are very biased towards as a link between the ancient Illyrians and the modern Shiptars. However, an objective analysis of burial practices in these necropolises shows the opposite, namely that they are associated with the settlement of large groups of people, diverse in origin, coming from the Middle Danube (W. Bowden. The Construction of Identities in post-Roman Albania In: L. Lavan, W. Bowden (ed.) Theory and Practice in Late antique Archeology, Brill-Leiden - Boston, 2003, 57 - 78, Grozdanova, GS The population of Southern Bulgaria VI-IX centuries. (according to archeological data) The necropolises of the Kumani-Kruja culture have a pronounced pagan, non-Christian ritual practice with burial equipment of a population that is part of a large community practicing similar burial rituals, which includes Avars, Slavs or even Lombards. and the spread of this group of necropolises took place in areas where only Christian burials without inventory had been practiced for at least 200 years (Bowden 2003, 67-68). The map of their distribution, which goes far beyond the borders of Albania and includes neighboring regions such as Macedonia, northern Greece, Bulgaria (Bowden 2003, 62), can also be pointed out. Parallels of the finds are found in the Byzantine centers in Constantinople, Athens, Corinth, Sicily, southern, northern Italy, as well as in Hungary and Crimea. Particularly characteristic inventory in the graves are the belt pendants found in Avar-Slavic contexts, Frankish and Lombard graves and in the area of ​​the Saltovo-Mayak culture (Bowden 2003, 59 -60; Garam 1995, 312; Garam 1980, 161-180; Curta 2006,105).
These facts indicate the existence of a very weak ethnic connection of the Albanians with the ancient Illyrians. Most likely, the Albanians contain a substrate of local, inherited population and a massive superstratum of newcomers of Indo-European origin. The origin of this superstratum must be sought in an area outside the Greek and Roman states and influence, ie outside the Balkan Peninsula. Interestingly, such hypotheses about the distant, non-Balkan (Celtic, Asian) origin of the Albanians have already been proposed.

This is the bull shit of an retard vulgar called Ivan Tanev Ivanov. And below you have the link with this pseudoscientific article written by this charlatan:
http://protobulgarians.com/Statii%20za%20prabaalgarite/Albantsite%20-%20avtohtonen%20narod%20li.htm

You should have posted the source of this charade.
P.S.
The "article" start with these words:

In Italian the Albanians are called Arberishtja or Arberichte,
It`s not true.

[PAGANE]

http://www.protobulgarians.com/Statii%20za%20prabaalgarite/Albantsite-avtohtonen%20-1.gif
Presumed borders of the early Bulgarian historical district Kutmichevitsa (Kotokia). The administrative center of the district is the city of Devol, while Belgrade (Velegrad, Velika, today Berat - a small red dot) is an important religious center. With yellow and black dots is shown the historic region of Arbanon, home to the Illyrian tribe Arvaniti.
The above-mentioned region (in yellow) of the Shkumbi Valley (Arbanon) was part of the First Bulgarian State for 150 years, when it was called Kotokia in the beginning, then Kutmichevitsa Until the late Middle Ages (XVII century) one of the Bulgarian monasteries on Mount Athos was called Kutlumusia, which name is an obvious echo of Kutmichevitsa. In the town of Devol (now the village of Zvezda, Korchansko), the administrative center of the district / big red dot /, operated the first Bulgarian university - the Literary School of St. Kliment Ohridski (886-893), where they were trained in written Old Bulgarian about 3500 students. Nowhere in the great literary heritage of this school are we talking about Illyrians, who have long been forgotten, or Albanians (Shiptars), who have not yet appeared! but, in the eighth century, an episcopate named Kotragia (Kotia) existed on the same site. The notice of it is contained in the conciliar acts of the Seventh Ecumenical Council (Second of Nicaea and Fourth of Constantinople), held during the time of the Byzantine Empress Irina and her son Constantine VI (780 - 797), Patriarch Tarasius of Constantinople (784 - 806). and Pope Adrian I (772-795). This gathering is directed against the iconoclasts. Among the participants who left their names in this church council is "Constantinus sanctissimus episcopus Cotragii (Cottyaei)" - "Constantine, the holiest bishop of Cotragii (Cottia)". The location of the episcopate was in today's Northwestern (Greek) Macedonia. It is assumed that the name of the district comes from the Kotragi who settled in it. Most probably the Bulgarian name Kotokia (Kutmichevitsa) is a continuation of the previous Kotragia (Kotia). Kotrag is the name of one of the brothers of Khan Asparuh - founder of the Bulgarian state in the Balkans


The modern Albanian language, together with Bulgarian and Romanian, have some common features, which unites them in the so-called Balkan Language Union
Balkan Language Union (BUU) is a term that emphasizes the common features of grammar, syntax, vocabulary and phonetics of some languages ​​spoken in the Balkans, although they belong to different language groups of the Indo-European language family. These include mostly Bulgarian (including the so-called "Macedonian" and "Turlak" dialects), Romanian (including Aromanian, Megleno-Romanian and Istro-Romanian) and Albanian, as well as to a lesser extent Greek. To an even lesser extent, the Serbian language is included in the BES, in particular its easternmost "Turlak" dialect, which is actually spoken in a territory that until recently was part of the Bulgarian ethnic land. This language union later influenced the languages ​​of the late Gypsies (Indo-Iranian) who came to the Balkans and the Sephardic Jews (Ladino).
Although the general vocabulary for these languages ​​is very small, there are common features in their grammar, such as: 1) movement towards analysis; 2) postpositive member; 3) removal of the infinitive; 4) the presence of the vowel sound "Ъ"; 5) formation of the future tense category; 6) anticipation of the personal pronoun; 7) features in the formation of numerals from 10 to 100; 8) syntactic and phraseological features.
The first scholar to notice the common features (Balkanisms) in some Balkan languages ​​from different language groups was the Slovene Jernej Kopitar in 1829, but only in the first decades of the twentieth century was the overall picture of BES formed. Gustav Weigand and Kristian Sandfeld-Jensen (Linguistique balkanique, 1930) and the Romanian local historian Alexandru Rosetti, who coined the term BES (1958), made major contributions in this regard.
According to the latest substantiated idea of ​​the scholars, the Balkan language union began to function not earlier than the VIII century (when the proto-Bulgarians came !!). And this is explained by the powerful influence of the spoken (apart from that of the later written) language of the First Bulgarian Kingdom on 2/3 of the territory of the then Balkan Peninsula. It is no coincidence that the linguistic territory of today's Albanian and Romanian languages ​​enters the borders of the then Bulgarian state and, more importantly, enters fully and partially into the land on which the medieval Bulgarian nation was created. A significant component of modern Albanians and Romanians are descendants of assimilated medieval Bulgarians, as evidenced by the presence of a powerful layer of Bulgarian toponyms, hydronyms and oronyms, as well as a large number of Bulgarianisms in their languages.
there are too many Iranian words in the language of modern Albanians, which, although of pre-Indo-European origin, are very specific to Iranian languages.
Since these Iranianisms are missing in the languages ​​of the peoples with whom the Albanians were in contact (Turks, Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks), it is not clear how they got into Albanian. Most likely they are native Albanian words, indicating ancient connections with the Scythian-Sarmatians, part of which are the Avars
Pi (alb.) - "drink". In the Iranian languages ​​pi - piya. In the Slavic languages ​​the verb pit / piya- "drink" is borrowed. The Bulgarian verb "piya" is probably of Iranian origin. Compare the Albanian pibonti - "they drink water" with the Sanskrit píbanti - "drink water".
In the Albanian language, words are used that have exact correspondences of ancient Scythian-Sarmatian and Proto-Bulgarian words. The presence of such symbolic proto-Bulgarianisms among the Albanians speaks of a close connection and ethnic kinship between the earliest Bulgarians - the proto-Bulgarians and the earliest ancestors of the modern Albanians.
Qumësht - milk. The ancient Scythian-Sarmatian tribes as well as the Bulgarians used mare's milk called "koumiss".


Kok - head. By the end of the 19th century. most elderly Bulgarians left a braid called "chembas" and "kika". This custom is a legacy of the proto-Bulgarians. "Kok" is a Bulgarian, non-Slavic name for hair curled in a ball at the back of the head in women. Kok (Κόχ / Kώχ) - name of Avar. An interesting fact is the presence of the Saxon name Kukej (Kukej), modern. Ossetian Kuku, Kaako and Chuvash Kukey. * kok - a vague term referring to the human body.


Beirojnë is a snake. The word is similar to the proto-Bulgarian calendar term "Vereni" - snake, dragon. According to M. Moskov, the name faithful is of Indo-Iranian origin. In Romanian there is a similar word - vărlan, vîrlan - snake, which is probably an old ancient Bulgarian loanword. In modern Bulgarian there is the word "varlina", which means high, long rod, tree.


Dos is a pig. The word is similar to the proto-Bulgarian calendar term DOX - boar.


Enite Day - Thursday. According to a runic inscription on the rosette from Pliska [Names of the proto-Bulgarian gods-planets], the proto-Bulgarians called the planet Jupiter with the word ANISHAR (Anshar among the Assyrians and Babylonians). Anisher was transformed into Yankul by modern Bulgarians. It can be assumed that among the proto-Bulgarians Thursday was similarly called "Anisher's day", which is close to the Albanian "Enite's day". In Albanian god = pernitor (per is a prefix), which is similar to ANISHER.


Galige - lake, swamp. The Arab traveler Ibn Fadlan, who left the most complete description of Volga Bulgaria from 922, reports that among the Volga Bulgarians "haliche" means "lake", which is very close to the Albanian galige. In Bulgaria such a word was used in the earliest period and was quickly forgotten


Kershor (June), Korrik (July), Korrj (harvest), korr (woman), korrës (harvester). The base "korr" of these five Albanian words coincides with the base of the Old Bulgarian and Proto-Bulgarian name "Charv" = sickle (Meaning of the Old Bulgarian words Chraven and Chrv), whence the names Chraven = June (sometimes July). Hence the name of the Glagolitic and Cyrillic letter "Ch" / Ch - Chrv / sickle, in addition, this letter looks like a sickle. The name Corfu on the nearby island can also be explained by the semantic basis kor = "worm" because this island has the shape of a sickle.

There are many words in modern Albanian borrowed from modern Greek and Ottoman Turkish. There are also about 500 borrowings from the medieval Bulgarian language, most of which have a Bulgarian-Slavic etymology. These borrowings show that the Albanians are not as closed and invulnerable to external influences as one might think.
In comparative linguistics it is assumed that the presence in two languages ​​of common-sounding words (homonyms) with close but clearly distinguished meaning speaks of the ancient kinship of the two languages. The following word pairs can serve as an eloquent example in this regard:




Madh (alb.) - Great. In Sansrit, madh - great, great, madhadeva - great god
Nënë (Albanian) - mother. In Iranian languages ​​nana - mother
Gju (alb.) -Knee In Avestan gnu - knee
Shkurt (alb.) Short, short In Iranian languages ​​kurt - short, short; kurtag - short outer garment, jacket. In Bul. and Russ. kurtka / jacket
Patë (alb.) - Goose In Iranian languages ​​pat - goose, in Bulgarian - patitsa with a derivative "duck".
Derë (alb.) - Gate. In Persian dar - door
zverd (alb.) - yellow. in Iranian zard - yellow
Qytet (alb.) - grad. In Sogdian kat, kant, kent - village, town. A similar word is the Albanian katund - a village that coincides with the Bulgarian "katun".
si (zezё) (alb.) - black. Ancient Sarmatian word (Šaw - black), from which comes the Bulgarian word siv -"gray".In the language of the Alans syāv, syuvāg, syāvak, syv, syuvg, syvak - black. According to Turchaninov, shyo is the older Alan form, from which comes the modern Ossetian (ironic) word syo - black.
mal (alb.) - mountain. Some bring it from the Latvian mala - coast. There is a similar word in the Romanian language - mal, "rock, mountain". It is also found in Western Bulgaria - Malyovitsa (peak in Rila, 2729 m) and Maleshevska Mountain in Eastern Macedonia. The word mal - mountain is found in the Dravidian language in southern India -malai = "mountain". Hence the following names of Indian mountains noted in the ancient Indian epic Mahabharata: Malyavat and Malaya in present-day South India and the Himalayas in present-day North India. Hence, some authors (Sorin Paliga) hypothesize that the Western Balkan word MAL-mountain may be pre-Indo-European, of nostradic origin. But it is much more likely to assume that some eastern Iranian people (Avars, Kutrigurs, Proto-Bulgarians?) Brought this word to the Balkans.
Furi (alb.) (Furime) - strong (strength), Compare with the Avestan sura - strength. In the Bulgarian language there are the expressions "run like fury", "work like fury". It is believed that "fury" comes from the Latin goddess of the wind. However, "Fury" can mean "strong, strong" and be proto-Bulgarian.

Qumësht - milk. The ancient Scythian-Sarmatian tribes as well as the Bulgarians used mare's milk called "koumiss".


Kok - head. By the end of the 19th century. most elderly Bulgarians left a braid called "chembas" and "kika". This custom is a legacy of the proto-Bulgarians. "Kok" is a Bulgarian, non-Slavic name for hair curled in a ball at the back of the head in women. Kok (Κόχ / Kώχ) - name of Avar. An interesting fact is the presence of the Saxon name Kukej (Kukej), modern. Ossetian Kuku, Kaako and Chuvash Kukey. * kok - a vague term referring to the human body.


Beirojnë is a snake. The word is similar to the proto-Bulgarian calendar term "Vereni" - snake, dragon. According to M. Moskov, the name faithful is of Indo-Iranian origin. In Romanian there is a similar word - vărlan, vîrlan - snake, which is probably an old ancient Bulgarian loanword. In modern Bulgarian there is the word "varlina", which means high, long rod, tree.


Dos is a pig. The word is similar to the proto-Bulgarian calendar term DOX - boar.


Enite Day - Thursday. According to a runic inscription on the rosette from Pliska [Names of the proto-Bulgarian gods-planets], the proto-Bulgarians called the planet Jupiter with the word ANISHAR (Anshar among the Assyrians and Babylonians). Anisher was transformed into Yankul by modern Bulgarians. It can be assumed that among the proto-Bulgarians Thursday was similarly called "Anisher's day", which is close to the Albanian "Enite's day". In Albanian god = pernitor (per is a prefix), which is similar to ANISHER.


Galige - lake, swamp. The Arab traveler Ibn Fadlan, who left the most complete description of Volga Bulgaria from 922, reports that among the Volga Bulgarians "haliche" means "lake", which is very close to the Albanian galige. In Bulgaria such a word was used in the earliest period and was quickly forgotten


Kershor (June), Korrik (July), Korrj (harvest), korr (woman), korrës (harvester). The base "korr" of these five Albanian words coincides with the base of the Old Bulgarian and Proto-Bulgarian name "Charv" = sickle (Meaning of the Old Bulgarian words Chraven and Chrv), whence the names Chraven = June (sometimes July). Hence the name of the Glagolitic and Cyrillic letter "Ch" / Ch - Chrv / sickle, in addition, this letter looks like a sickle. The name Corfu on the nearby island can also be explained by the semantic basis kor = "Chrv" because this island has the shape of a sickle.

[Hulu]

Compare the Albanian pibonti - "they drink water" with the Sanskrit píbanti - "drink water".

What? We say "pi uje". What is this pibonti?
And lake is liqen. What is galige?

[PAGANE]

There are many words in modern Albanian borrowed from modern Greek and Ottoman Turkish. There are also about 500 borrowings from the medieval Bulgarian language, most of which have Bulgarian-Slavic etymology.
These borrowings show that the Albanians are not as closed and invulnerable to the outside world as one might think. In comparative linguistics it is assumed that the presence in two languages ​​of common-sounding words (homonyms) with close but clearly distinguished meaning speaks of the ancient kinship of the two languages. The following word pairs can serve as an eloquent example in this regard:


Albanian word- (alb.)
Bulgarian phonetic analogue and meaning - (BPhAM)


barishte (alb.) - a plant. BILKA - medicinal plant (BPhAM)
buza (alb.) - oral. BUZA - Lateral Lower Face (BPhAM)
Gjuhë (Albanian) - language. Djuka- Oral (BPhAM)
kënd (alb.) - angle. KAT - a separate place next to the wall of the room, maybe in the corner. (BPhAM)
tul (alb.) - deboned meat. SHOL - boned lean meat (free of tendons, fat and cartilage) from the top of beef leg (BPhAM)
Burrë (alb.) - man, husband. Bre, Be - interjection address to a male person (BPhAM)
Grua (alb.) - woman. DJOFRA- woman (mockingly, in the sense of ugly, shapeless, amused, crushed, unfriendly, unattractive · unclean, suspicious). (BPhAM)
Rrush (alb.) - grapes. RUEN, RUINO- Occurs in the expression "ruinous wine" = "good wine from grapes".(BPhAM)

Another type of proto-Bulgarianism can be found in modern Albanian. Unlike the above, this type of proto-Bulgarianism was used by medieval Bulgarians, which is why Albanians could borrow it from them. These words cannot clarify the origin of (part of) the Albanians, but we cite them because of their large number. In the mentioned Albanian words "ë" is read as "Ъ".

kuts, kut, kute, ken - dog. Corresponds to the Bulgarian non-Slavic word "kuche" / dog and kutre / puppy, which has proto-Bulgarian, Indo-Iranian origin: Avestan kuti, Hindu-Urdu kuta, Sogdian kwty, Yagnob kud, Huff, Rushan kid, kud, Sarikol, Ishashim kud Shugnan kut, Yazgulem k`od, Sanglichi kod, Khovar keni, Nuristan kua, Ossetian kuædz, kuædzme, qæwdyn, Pashto kutraj, Talish kūtile - dog. / VS-ETD /, / IED / В тох. / Б / ku, kuwa, kuñiye [J. Voinikov].


kerpe - towel Corresponds to the Bulgarian non-Slavic word "karpa" - "a piece of cloth" of Indo-Iranian origin. As a derivative of the all-Iranian ker - I cut, we can mention the Wahan, Ishashim, Sarikol kerpa - cotton blanket. In Tajik kurpa - cotton suit. It has entered Tajik. In Sanskrit karpaţa, Pali Pakpaţam, Prakrit Kappаda, Pashto and Hindi-Urdu kapra, Nepali kapar, Kashmiri khāpara - fabric


stopan - owner (Stopanin-Proto-Bulgarian, East-Iranian word)

buyar, bular (buyaresha) - (Medieval Bulgarian administrative title from the proto-Bulgarian boil, boilar

Golem - a medieval feudal lord, a nobleman in southern Albania. Italian medieval documents note that the Albanian rulers were called by the nickname υουλάμος, Golem, translated as Grande. Selishchev notes that Golem / Goljam is also widespread as a toponym in southern Albania. Even in the Peloponnese there is a village Γχολέμιον. The word "big" has East Iranian origins. In the Bulgarian language the word Golem / Goljam means Grande


koftšek - wall cupboard for storing bread. This word is a loanword from Old Bulgarian, where there is a word Kofcheg - chest. This word is also used in many Slavic languages, but is considered proto-Bulgarian. Hence the word Kofchegnik / treasurer


chuke - mountain peak. In the old Bulgarian chuka, chukar / synonymous with rocky peak, sharp rock. In Sanskrit sikhara means peak (sik) in the mountain (hara).

chuk - hammer. In Bulgarian chuk, with the same pronunciation and meaning

Sara godina - in Elbasan and the surrounding area this is a New Year's greeting of the local Albanians, which corresponds to the Bulgarian - Surva year.

zakon - habit, custom, way. Compare with Old Bulgarian. "law", borrowed in all Slavic languages and in Greek.

metške - a bear. According to A. Selishchev, it is an old Bulgarian loanword. The Bulgarian non-Slavic word Mechka / bear has almost completely replaced the Slavic Medved / bear.

Štek, štegu - I walk, pass, travel [B. Tsonev - IBE-2, p. 172] - Bulgarian. Shtakam (synonymous with I walk, I move back and forth, I do something purposefully (without seeing what)) of East Iranian origin: Avestan sac, šāti, Middle Persian sc, sаz,

Biser - pearl (proto-Bulgarian word)

Buburike - (from the dictionary of Prof. Weigand) - Babrek- kidney, an obvious Bulgarian loanword with proto-Bulgarian. origin

Vikas - I shout, I say - a Bulgarian loanword of Avestan origin. With the same sound and meaning in the modern Bulgarian language

pallë - sword. It coincides with the Old Bulgarian "palash" - sword, which has a Sanskrit etymology - in Sanskrit pales - cutting.

miždhóm - salary. In Old Bulgarian "mizda" - remuneration. It is of Aryan-Avestan origin, in Avestan mı̄̆ždəm, in Sanskrit mīḍhám - salary

čupa - girl çupkё - unmarried girl, girl. Corresponds to the Bulgarian dialect word "Chupe" - girl. This is a proto-Bulgarian word, related to the Chuvash "sapu", the Yazgulem zaif - woman, girl.

njerëzor, njeriut - man (from the Avestan nar, nair - man, man), compare the Bulgarian Nerez - Uncollected male breeding pig.


ngrëna - food, typically Bulgarian word HRANA with Pamir roots (ë reads "Ъ").


zapana - owner, owner. Compare with the Avar and Proto-Bulgarian military title "Zhupan"

korδ-a - sword. According to St. Mladenov, this is a loanword from Old Bulgarian, where there was a word cord, cord - a sword of Iranian origin. Occupied in many Slavic languages.


kátš - weaver. It is considered an old Bulgarian loanword. The word "kat" = a garment among the proto-Bulgarians. Today in the Bulgarian language it is synonymous with Layer, layer, Set of clothes for one dress.

kerš - hill It is considered to be a loanword from Old Bulgarian, where there was a word krsha, krut - rock. We find it in Ossetian, where karsh (krsh) means ridge. Occupied in Abkhazian kiriš - ridge, Kabardian kıiūыrš, Abaza kıiūыrč - rocky mountain.


varg, chain - chain. In Bulgarian veriga -chain is obviously a proto-Bulgarian word with clear Tocharian-Ossetian analogues: in Ossetian uærdæg, uærdæx, Kurdish weirs


gugugce - a dove. In Romanian gugugstiuca - dove, in Latin turtur. Prof. P. Dobrev rightly connects the Bulgarian "gugutka" with the Pamir gugugštuka, guguraka - wild pigeon, which shows the proto-Bulgarian origin of this non-Slavic word.


matca, mace, mačok - cat, cat. Corresponds to the Bulgarian non-Slavic word cat, babe, babe - cat. Shafarik points to the Slovak cat - cat, as an old Bulgarian loanword. Occupied in Serbian cat, Croatian, Slovenian cat, Hungarian macska, Romanian maţa - cat, cat. The word was discovered as a relic of the language of the Alcek Bulgarians in Italy, a mosque, a mosque - a cat that entered modern times. Italian as mischo-cat, which shows a probable proto-Bulgarian origin.

bari, berr - shepherd, sheep. Compare with the old Bulgarian BARAN - ram, borrowed in Russian and the Bulgarian dialect "baranka" - sheep. Also compare with the Bulgarian BACHIA - association of shepherds - owners


To the above words can be added Albanian isoglosses of ancient, original Bulgarian words of non-Slavic origin:


pluhur - powder (notice the Sarmatian transformation R - L, in the Bulgarian dialects "Prahor" = Prah- powder)

grill - Grill. The Bulgarian Skara / Grill


pelenë - diaper In Bulgarian Pelena with the same meaning

gjobë (read "Job") - fine. In the Bulgarian Djob / pocket

gjobë (read "Job") - fine. In the Bulgarian Djob / pocket


zonjë - lady There is a similar foreign word in Hungarian - asszony (asjoni) - princess, literally "noble woman". The explanation of this phrase comes from the Eastern Iranian words aors, ass (white, noble) and zhen (woman). ass derives the ethnic name of the Alans in the Kuban and Don rivers - ASI or IASI (noble).

goxha (goja) - high. Among the Bulgarians in Romania there is the church title "gadja" - a secular person who has a strong influence on the church. The Bulgarian surname Gadjev, Gadjeva is also common. These vague Bulgarian words can be explained as derivatives of the Bulgarian-Albanian isogloss "goja" - high (figuratively "influential, high-ranking"), as the Bulgarian Duma has disappeared or been forgotten.

shikimi- vision (shikoj -look) - compare with the Bulgarian slang "skivaj - watch"


oborr - yard. Compare with the Bulgarian "Obor" - a farm building for animals in the yard of the house.


përrua - flow. Compare with the Bulgarian "torrent" - a river formed after rain (absent in the Slavic languages).


jug - south (ne jug - south). The word "south" is present in many Slavic languages (excluding Polish, Belarusian and Ukrainian), but has no Slavic etymology.




kertšmar - innkeeper. Old Bulgarian loanword, derived from the Iranian word "krchag" - pitcher, jar.

All the authors, when listing the available Proto-Bulgarianisms in the Albanian language, explain them as early borrowings in the direction of the powerful Bulgarian state in the past, but they can be Albanian-Proto-Bulgarian isoglosses - common words for two related languages. Compared to the mass of these words, the amount of Illyrian words preserved in the Albanian language is insignificant and fades. Why then should we consider the Albanians as pure heirs of the Illyrians?
It is well known that the lexical composition of each language has changed significantly over about 500 years. At the same time, its syntax has remained virtually unchanged. Therefore, the syntax of a language is a much stronger sign of ethnicity than its vocabulary. And what is characteristic of the syntax of modern Albanian? In addition to the many ancient Indo-Iranian words, there are many Indo-Iranian grammar rules !! For example:


1. Modern Albanian has phonetic features that are incompatible with the languages ​​of the local ancient peoples. It is reasonably assumed (G. Hirt) that the language of the Illyrians belongs to the Kentum group (this includes the languages ​​of Western Indo-Europeans - Celts, Germans, Italians, as well as the languages ​​of Greeks, Thracians, Macedonians, Balts, Anatolian peoples). However, the modern Albanian (Scythian) language belongs to the satem group (this includes the languages ​​of the Indo-Iranians, who later satemized the language of the Proto-Slavs and partly of the Balts, but not of the Tocharians). There is no way that the ancient Illyrian language Kentum later became the Satem language, unless the Illyrians themselves were replaced by a new people speaking the Satem language, such as the Sarmatian language of the Avars and Kutrigurs.


2. The Albanian language uses the ancient Sanskrit-Avestan suffix to form the active names "-tar, tor, tur", which is also characteristic of the proto-Bulgarian language (compare the proto-Bulgarian "bagatur", "mizhiturka", "barator", as and the later "glavatar", "tehnitar", "mechkadar", probably "troubadour" - trumpeter, musician) !! For example: Shqip (Albanian, we understand) - Shqiptar (Albanian, we understand); këpucë (shoe) - këpucitar (shoemaker); mish (meat) - mishtor (butcher); udha (road) - udhatar (traveler); këndon (peja) - këngëtar (singer); shkruan (writes) -shkrimtar (writer); treg (auction! Bulgarianism) -tregtar (merchant); arke (cash) - arkëtar (cashier); gjhë (hunting) - gjahtar (hunter); logari (account) - logaritar (accountant). To these examples can be added punë (work) - punëtar (worker), besim (faith) - besimtar - (believer), zdrukthëtar - carpenter, peshk (fish) - peshkatar (fisherman) and others.


3. A very important argument in favor of the Iranian character of the Albanian language is the presence in the early and modern Albanian of a grammatical construction that coincides with the so-called Iranian isafet !! Iranian languages ​​have a characteristic syntactic construction known as Iranian isafet. It is two consecutive words related to the conjunction "and" (broadly "e"). The first is a noun, and the next word defines a characteristic of the first. For example, in Persian: Desht-i-Kipchak (Kipchak steppe), ræng-e-roshæn (bright color). Albanian expressions libër e badhë (white paper); Become-and-misuse (Become the misian); Formula e Pagëzimit "(" Baptist Formula "- title of the oldest book in Albanian from 1462), Drini i si (Black Drina), Mal i si (Black Mountain), Republika e Skipërisë (Albanian Republic), gotë e madhë (big glass), pompa e benzinës (gas station), Malesi-e-Madha (Great Maleshia), etc. are typical examples of a syntactic construction identical to the Iranian isaphet. , as evidenced by data from proto-Bulgarian tombstones [Two inscriptions from the village of Garvan, Silistra and Pliska].

4. The Albanian language uses the ancient Indo-European suffix "-ash" to form adjectives, which is typical of modern Indo-Aryan languages ​​as well as Germanic languages. There are traces of this suffix in the Bulgarian language as well, but it is completely absent in the Greek language and in the Slavic languages. There is no evidence that this suffix was present in the language of the Macedonians and Illyrians. In Albanian, however, it is present, for example:


burrë (male) - burrash (male)


fëmijë (child) - fëmijësh (childish)


kukull (doll) - kukullash (something that is characteristic of dolls, puppet)


kepucë (shoe) - kepucësh (something that is characteristic of shoes)


begatsh - rich man, rich man (Bulgarian)


Korbash - raven (compare the basis korb - corv !!!!)

In the Bulgarian language there are only remnants of this non-Slavic suffix, for example: bogat / rich - bogatash / nabob, Targ / auction - Targash / you trade, and others

5. The Albanian language uses the ancient Indo-European suffix "-or" to form adjectives, which is typical of modern Indo-Aryan languages, as well as Latin. There are traces of this suffix in the Bulgarian language as well, but it is completely absent in the Greek language and in the Slavic languages. In Albanian, however, it is present, for example:
vjetër (old,) = vjet (old) + ër (suffix)

6. Plural in many Albanian words is formed by adding the consonant "t", as in the ancient East Iranian languages, Scythian, Sarmatian, Saxon, Sogdian !! Example: udha (road) - udhat (roads).


7. The presence of the phonetic transformation T> L in the Albanian language, which is characteristic of the East Iranian languages. Compare the Albanian djali (shares) - boy and the Slavic "Diate" / kid








The presence in modern Albanian of the above-mentioned specific Iranian languages and Sanskrit syntactic norms speaks of the infusion of a powerful East Iranian ethnic and linguistic substratum into the modern Albanian nation. This Iranian substrate cannot come from the Latinized or Hellenized indigenous Balkan population. Such a substrate may have come from the land of the early Scythian Sarmatians and their related Avars, Kutrigurs and Proto-Bulgarians.
In the Middle Ages in the region of Northern Albania and Kosovo was the Bishopric of Hunabia (from the Old Bulgarian "Hunav" = Hun), ie "Hun Bishopric", and papal bulls from the tenth century locate Episcopia Avarorum, ie Avar Episcopate, located at 100 km to the west, around the present-day Montenegrin port of Bar
The above circumstances strongly support the alternative hypothesis of the non-indigenous, non-Balkan substrate in modern Shiptars. Given the presence of typically Iranian grammatical constructions, ancient Iranianisms (Persisms) and Proto-Bulgarianisms in Albanian, this substrate among the Albanians may be some Scythian-Sarmatian tribes
Judging by the early Bulgarian name Kotokia, Kutmichevitsa (Kutlumichevitsa - Kuturmichevitsa) and the bishopric Kotragiya (Kotia) in the area around the river Shkumbi, these tribes may include the famous Kutriguri (Kotragi). This old, Scythian-Sarmatian tribe from the northern Black Sea coast, related to the proto-Bulgarians and associated with the Old Greater Bulgaria of Kubrat Khan.
Historical data strongly support this possibility, because from the end of the 5th century (493) onwards massive invasions and settlements of sklavins and kutriguri began, which changed the ethnic picture of the Balkan borders of Byzantium. Apart from the Kutrigurs, Avars may also be involved in the ethnogenesis of modern Albanians. The territory of present-day Albania and Kosovo has been included for a considerable period of time within the Avar Khaganate. It occupied mainly the areas of Pannonia and Srem, but for some time included parts of the former Roman provinces of Dalmatia, Prevalitania, Dardania and Illyricum. In other words, the Avar state descended from present-day Hungary in the northwest to present-day Albania in the south. The accession of the Albanian lands to the Avar state is supported by documents mentioning the "Episcopate Hunabia" in Albania and the "Episcopate Avarorum" in Montenegro. This shows that Avars lived in the area of ​​present-day Montenegro and Albania. This is also supported by archeological finds.
The permanent settlement of the Avars in the lands of the Eastern Roman Empire is evidenced by the so-called "Monemvasian Chronicle", preserved as a copy from the fourteenth - fifteenth century on a document from the tenth - eleventh century. According to this source, during the reign of the Mauritian emperor (562-602) the Avars conquered the Western Peloponnese and settled permanently in the area, expelling the local Greek population. The chronicle also says: "The Avars were of Hunnic origin (ie, came from the north, across the Danube) and Bulgarian people." In 650, the borders of the Avar state included the lands of present-day Albania
original link in Bulgarian http://www.protobulgarians.com/Statii%20za%20prabaalgarite/Albantsite%20-%20avtohtonen%20narod%20li.htm

[PAGANE]

There are many words in modern Albanian borrowed from modern Greek and Ottoman Turkish. There are also about 500 borrowings from the medieval Bulgarian language, most of which have Bulgarian-Slavic etymology.
These borrowings show that the Albanians are not as closed and invulnerable to the outside world as one might think. In comparative linguistics it is assumed that the presence in two languages ​​of common-sounding words (homonyms) with close but clearly distinguished meaning speaks of the ancient kinship of the two languages. The following word pairs can serve as an eloquent example in this regard:


Albanian word- (alb.)
Bulgarian phonetic analogue and meaning - (BPhAM)


barishte (alb.) - a plant. BILKA - medicinal plant (BPhAM)
buza (alb.) - oral. BUZA - Lateral Lower Face (BPhAM)
Gjuhë (Albanian) - language. Djuka- Oral (BPhAM)
kënd (alb.) - angle. KAT - a separate place next to the wall of the room, maybe in the corner. (BPhAM)
tul (alb.) - deboned meat. SHOL - boned lean meat (free of tendons, fat and cartilage) from the top of beef leg (BPhAM)
Burrë (alb.) - man, husband. Bre, Be - interjection address to a male person (BPhAM)
Grua (alb.) - woman. DJOFRA- woman (mockingly, in the sense of ugly, shapeless, amused, crushed, unfriendly, unattractive · unclean, suspicious). (BPhAM)
Rrush (alb.) - grapes. RUEN, RUINO- Occurs in the expression "ruinous wine" = "good wine from grapes".(BPhAM)

Another type of proto-Bulgarianism can be found in modern Albanian. Unlike the above, this type of proto-Bulgarianism was used by medieval Bulgarians, which is why Albanians could borrow it from them. These words cannot clarify the origin of (part of) the Albanians, but we cite them because of their large number. In the mentioned Albanian words "ë" is read as "Ъ".

kuts, kut, kute, ken - dog. Corresponds to the Bulgarian non-Slavic word "kuche" / dog and kutre / puppy, which has proto-Bulgarian, Indo-Iranian origin: Avestan kuti, Hindu-Urdu kuta, Sogdian kwty, Yagnob kud, Huff, Rushan kid, kud, Sarikol, Ishashim kud Shugnan kut, Yazgulem k`od, Sanglichi kod, Khovar keni, Nuristan kua, Ossetian kuædz, kuædzme, qæwdyn, Pashto kutraj, Talish kūtile - dog. / VS-ETD /, / IED / В тох. / Б / ku, kuwa, kuñiye [J. Voinikov].


kerpe - towel Corresponds to the Bulgarian non-Slavic word "karpa" - "a piece of cloth" of Indo-Iranian origin. As a derivative of the all-Iranian ker - I cut, we can mention the Wahan, Ishashim, Sarikol kerpa - cotton blanket. In Tajik kurpa - cotton suit. It has entered Tajik. In Sanskrit karpaţa, Pali Pakpaţam, Prakrit Kappаda, Pashto and Hindi-Urdu kapra, Nepali kapar, Kashmiri khāpara - fabric


stopan - owner (Stopanin-Proto-Bulgarian, East-Iranian word)

buyar, bular (buyaresha) - (Medieval Bulgarian administrative title from the proto-Bulgarian boil, boilar

Golem - a medieval feudal lord, a nobleman in southern Albania. Italian medieval documents note that the Albanian rulers were called by the nickname υουλάμος, Golem, translated as Grande. Selishchev notes that Golem / Goljam is also widespread as a toponym in southern Albania. Even in the Peloponnese there is a village Γχολέμιον. The word "big" has East Iranian origins. In the Bulgarian language the word Golem / Goljam means Grande


koftšek - wall cupboard for storing bread. This word is a loanword from Old Bulgarian, where there is a word Kofcheg - chest. This word is also used in many Slavic languages, but is considered proto-Bulgarian. Hence the word Kofchegnik / treasurer


chuke - mountain peak. In the old Bulgarian chuka, chukar / synonymous with rocky peak, sharp rock. In Sanskrit sikhara means peak (sik) in the mountain (hara).

chuk - hammer. In Bulgarian chuk, with the same pronunciation and meaning

Sara godina - in Elbasan and the surrounding area this is a New Year's greeting of the local Albanians, which corresponds to the Bulgarian - Surva year.

zakon - habit, custom, way. Compare with Old Bulgarian. "law", borrowed in all Slavic languages and in Greek.

metške - a bear. According to A. Selishchev, it is an old Bulgarian loanword. The Bulgarian non-Slavic word Mechka / bear has almost completely replaced the Slavic Medved / bear.

Štek, štegu - I walk, pass, travel [B. Tsonev - IBE-2, p. 172] - Bulgarian. Shtakam (synonymous with I walk, I move back and forth, I do something purposefully (without seeing what)) of East Iranian origin: Avestan sac, šāti, Middle Persian sc, sаz,

Biser - pearl (proto-Bulgarian word)

Buburike - (from the dictionary of Prof. Weigand) - Babrek- kidney, an obvious Bulgarian loanword with proto-Bulgarian. origin

Vikas - I shout, I say - a Bulgarian loanword of Avestan origin. With the same sound and meaning in the modern Bulgarian language

pallë - sword. It coincides with the Old Bulgarian "palash" - sword, which has a Sanskrit etymology - in Sanskrit pales - cutting.

miždhóm - salary. In Old Bulgarian "mizda" - remuneration. It is of Aryan-Avestan origin, in Avestan mı̄̆ždəm, in Sanskrit mīḍhám - salary

čupa - girl çupkё - unmarried girl, girl. Corresponds to the Bulgarian dialect word "Chupe" - girl. This is a proto-Bulgarian word, related to the Chuvash "sapu", the Yazgulem zaif - woman, girl.

njerëzor, njeriut - man (from the Avestan nar, nair - man, man), compare the Bulgarian Nerez - Uncollected male breeding pig.


ngrëna - food, typically Bulgarian word HRANA with Pamir roots (ë reads "Ъ").


zapana - owner, owner. Compare with the Avar and Proto-Bulgarian military title "Zhupan"

korδ-a - sword. According to St. Mladenov, this is a loanword from Old Bulgarian, where there was a word cord, cord - a sword of Iranian origin. Occupied in many Slavic languages.


kátš - weaver. It is considered an old Bulgarian loanword. The word "kat" = a garment among the proto-Bulgarians. Today in the Bulgarian language it is synonymous with Layer, layer, Set of clothes for one dress.

kerš - hill It is considered to be a loanword from Old Bulgarian, where there was a word krsha, krut - rock. We find it in Ossetian, where karsh (krsh) means ridge. Occupied in Abkhazian kiriš - ridge, Kabardian kıiūыrš, Abaza kıiūыrč - rocky mountain.


varg, chain - chain. In Bulgarian veriga -chain is obviously a proto-Bulgarian word with clear Tocharian-Ossetian analogues: in Ossetian uærdæg, uærdæx, Kurdish weirs


gugugce - a dove. In Romanian gugugstiuca - dove, in Latin turtur. Prof. P. Dobrev rightly connects the Bulgarian "gugutka" with the Pamir gugugštuka, guguraka - wild pigeon, which shows the proto-Bulgarian origin of this non-Slavic word.


matca, mace, mačok - cat, cat. Corresponds to the Bulgarian non-Slavic word cat, babe, babe - cat. Shafarik points to the Slovak cat - cat, as an old Bulgarian loanword. Occupied in Serbian cat, Croatian, Slovenian cat, Hungarian macska, Romanian maţa - cat, cat. The word was discovered as a relic of the language of the Alcek Bulgarians in Italy, a mosque, a mosque - a cat that entered modern times. Italian as mischo-cat, which shows a probable proto-Bulgarian origin.

bari, berr - shepherd, sheep. Compare with the old Bulgarian BARAN - ram, borrowed in Russian and the Bulgarian dialect "baranka" - sheep. Also compare with the Bulgarian BACHIA - association of shepherds - owners


To the above words can be added Albanian isoglosses of ancient, original Bulgarian words of non-Slavic origin:


pluhur - powder (notice the Sarmatian transformation R - L, in the Bulgarian dialects "Prahor" = Prah- powder)

grill - Grill. The Bulgarian Skara / Grill


pelenë - diaper In Bulgarian Pelena with the same meaning

gjobë (read "Job") - fine. In the Bulgarian Djob / pocket

gjobë (read "Job") - fine. In the Bulgarian Djob / pocket


zonjë - lady There is a similar foreign word in Hungarian - asszony (asjoni) - princess, literally "noble woman". The explanation of this phrase comes from the Eastern Iranian words aors, ass (white, noble) and zhen (woman). ass derives the ethnic name of the Alans in the Kuban and Don rivers - ASI or IASI (noble).

goxha (goja) - high. Among the Bulgarians in Romania there is the church title "gadja" - a secular person who has a strong influence on the church. The Bulgarian surname Gadjev, Gadjeva is also common. These vague Bulgarian words can be explained as derivatives of the Bulgarian-Albanian isogloss "goja" - high (figuratively "influential, high-ranking"), as the Bulgarian Duma has disappeared or been forgotten.

shikimi- vision (shikoj -look) - compare with the Bulgarian slang "skivaj - watch"


oborr - yard. Compare with the Bulgarian "Obor" - a farm building for animals in the yard of the house.


përrua - flow. Compare with the Bulgarian "torrent" - a river formed after rain (absent in the Slavic languages).


jug - south (ne jug - south). The word "south" is present in many Slavic languages (excluding Polish, Belarusian and Ukrainian), but has no Slavic etymology.




kertšmar - innkeeper. Old Bulgarian loanword, derived from the Iranian word "krchag" - pitcher, jar.

All the authors, when listing the available Proto-Bulgarianisms in the Albanian language, explain them as early borrowings in the direction of the powerful Bulgarian state in the past, but they can be Albanian-Proto-Bulgarian isoglosses - common words for two related languages. Compared to the mass of these words, the amount of Illyrian words preserved in the Albanian language is insignificant and fades. Why then should we consider the Albanians as pure heirs of the Illyrians?
It is well known that the lexical composition of each language has changed significantly over about 500 years. At the same time, its syntax has remained virtually unchanged. Therefore, the syntax of a language is a much stronger sign of ethnicity than its vocabulary. And what is characteristic of the syntax of modern Albanian? In addition to the many ancient Indo-Iranian words, there are many Indo-Iranian grammar rules !! For example:


1. Modern Albanian has phonetic features that are incompatible with the languages ​​of the local ancient peoples. It is reasonably assumed (G. Hirt) that the language of the Illyrians belongs to the Kentum group (this includes the languages ​​of Western Indo-Europeans - Celts, Germans, Italians, as well as the languages ​​of Greeks, Thracians, Macedonians, Balts, Anatolian peoples). However, the modern Albanian (Scythian) language belongs to the satem group (this includes the languages ​​of the Indo-Iranians, who later satemized the language of the Proto-Slavs and partly of the Balts, but not of the Tocharians). There is no way that the ancient Illyrian language Kentum later became the Satem language, unless the Illyrians themselves were replaced by a new people speaking the Satem language, such as the Sarmatian language of the Avars and Kutrigurs.


2. The Albanian language uses the ancient Sanskrit-Avestan suffix to form the active names "-tar, tor, tur", which is also characteristic of the proto-Bulgarian language (compare the proto-Bulgarian "bagatur", "mizhiturka", "barator", as and the later "glavatar", "tehnitar", "mechkadar", probably "troubadour" - trumpeter, musician) !! For example: Shqip (Albanian, we understand) - Shqiptar (Albanian, we understand); këpucë (shoe) - këpucitar (shoemaker); mish (meat) - mishtor (butcher); udha (road) - udhatar (traveler); këndon (peja) - këngëtar (singer); shkruan (writes) -shkrimtar (writer); treg (auction! Bulgarianism) -tregtar (merchant); arke (cash) - arkëtar (cashier); gjhë (hunting) - gjahtar (hunter); logari (account) - logaritar (accountant). To these examples can be added punë (work) - punëtar (worker), besim (faith) - besimtar - (believer), zdrukthëtar - carpenter, peshk (fish) - peshkatar (fisherman) and others.


3. A very important argument in favor of the Iranian character of the Albanian language is the presence in the early and modern Albanian of a grammatical construction that coincides with the so-called Iranian isafet !! Iranian languages ​​have a characteristic syntactic construction known as Iranian isafet. It is two consecutive words related to the conjunction "and" (broadly "e"). The first is a noun, and the next word defines a characteristic of the first. For example, in Persian: Desht-i-Kipchak (Kipchak steppe), ræng-e-roshæn (bright color). Albanian expressions libër e badhë (white paper); Become-and-misuse (Become the misian); Formula e Pagëzimit "(" Baptist Formula "- title of the oldest book in Albanian from 1462), Drini i si (Black Drina), Mal i si (Black Mountain), Republika e Skipërisë (Albanian Republic), gotë e madhë (big glass), pompa e benzinës (gas station), Malesi-e-Madha (Great Maleshia), etc. are typical examples of a syntactic construction identical to the Iranian isaphet. , as evidenced by data from proto-Bulgarian tombstones [Two inscriptions from the village of Garvan, Silistra and Pliska].

4. The Albanian language uses the ancient Indo-European suffix "-ash" to form adjectives, which is typical of modern Indo-Aryan languages ​​as well as Germanic languages. There are traces of this suffix in the Bulgarian language as well, but it is completely absent in the Greek language and in the Slavic languages. There is no evidence that this suffix was present in the language of the Macedonians and Illyrians. In Albanian, however, it is present, for example:


burrë (male) - burrash (male)


fëmijë (child) - fëmijësh (childish)


kukull (doll) - kukullash (something that is characteristic of dolls, puppet)


kepucë (shoe) - kepucësh (something that is characteristic of shoes)


begatsh - rich man, rich man (Bulgarian)


Korbash - raven (compare the basis korb - corv !!!!)

In the Bulgarian language there are only remnants of this non-Slavic suffix, for example: bogat / rich - bogatash / nabob, Targ / auction - Targash / you trade, and others

5. The Albanian language uses the ancient Indo-European suffix "-or" to form adjectives, which is typical of modern Indo-Aryan languages, as well as Latin. There are traces of this suffix in the Bulgarian language as well, but it is completely absent in the Greek language and in the Slavic languages. In Albanian, however, it is present, for example:
vjetër (old,) = vjet (old) + ër (suffix)

6. Plural in many Albanian words is formed by adding the consonant "t", as in the ancient East Iranian languages, Scythian, Sarmatian, Saxon, Sogdian !! Example: udha (road) - udhat (roads).


7. The presence of the phonetic transformation T> L in the Albanian language, which is characteristic of the East Iranian languages. Compare the Albanian djali (shares) - boy and the Slavic "Diate" / kid








The presence in modern Albanian of the above-mentioned specific Iranian languages and Sanskrit syntactic norms speaks of the infusion of a powerful East Iranian ethnic and linguistic substratum into the modern Albanian nation. This Iranian substrate cannot come from the Latinized or Hellenized indigenous Balkan population. Such a substrate may have come from the land of the early Scythian Sarmatians and their related Avars, Kutrigurs and Proto-Bulgarians.
In the Middle Ages in the region of Northern Albania and Kosovo was the Bishopric of Hunabia (from the Old Bulgarian "Hunav" = Hun), ie "Hun Bishopric", and papal bulls from the tenth century locate Episcopia Avarorum, ie Avar Episcopate, located at 100 km to the west, around the present-day Montenegrin port of Bar
The above circumstances strongly support the alternative hypothesis of the non-indigenous, non-Balkan substrate in modern Shiptars. Given the presence of typically Iranian grammatical constructions, ancient Iranianisms (Persisms) and Proto-Bulgarianisms in Albanian, this substrate among the Albanians may be some Scythian-Sarmatian tribes
Judging by the early Bulgarian name Kotokia, Kutmichevitsa (Kutlumichevitsa - Kuturmichevitsa) and the bishopric Kotragiya (Kotia) in the area around the river Shkumbi, these tribes may include the famous Kutriguri (Kotragi). This old, Scythian-Sarmatian tribe from the northern Black Sea coast, related to the proto-Bulgarians and associated with the Old Greater Bulgaria of Kubrat Khan.
Historical data strongly support this possibility, because from the end of the 5th century (493) onwards massive invasions and settlements of sklavins and kutriguri began, which changed the ethnic picture of the Balkan borders of Byzantium. Apart from the Kutrigurs, Avars may also be involved in the ethnogenesis of modern Albanians. The territory of present-day Albania and Kosovo has been included for a considerable period of time within the Avar Khaganate. It occupied mainly the areas of Pannonia and Srem, but for some time included parts of the former Roman provinces of Dalmatia, Prevalitania, Dardania and Illyricum. In other words, the Avar state descended from present-day Hungary in the northwest to present-day Albania in the south. The accession of the Albanian lands to the Avar state is supported by documents mentioning the "Episcopate Hunabia" in Albania and the "Episcopate Avarorum" in Montenegro. This shows that Avars lived in the area of ​​present-day Montenegro and Albania. This is also supported by archeological finds.
The permanent settlement of the Avars in the lands of the Eastern Roman Empire is evidenced by the so-called "Monemvasian Chronicle", preserved as a copy from the fourteenth - fifteenth century on a document from the tenth - eleventh century. According to this source, during the reign of the Mauritian emperor (562-602) the Avars conquered the Western Peloponnese and settled permanently in the area, expelling the local Greek population. The chronicle also says: "The Avars were of Hunnic origin (ie, came from the north, across the Danube) and Bulgarian people." In 650, the borders of the Avar state included the lands of present-day Albania
original link in Bulgarian http://www.protobulgarians.com/Statii%20za%20prabaalgarite/Albantsite%20-%20avtohtonen%20narod%20li.htm

[Hulu]

Albanian is an indo-european language, so it has similarities to all the languages in this group. It is considered to have both centum and satem elements, one of the reasons linguists considered it as a very old language compare to modern european languages, together with the fact that it retains old core words that are present in latin, ancient greek and ancient germanic languages - I will mention water - uje. It is similar to the old Dutch ij ( or French eau) which was then replaced by water and its variants in Germanic and Northern Europe.


Most of the words are either not in use, or the similarities are present in other languages too.

barishte (alb.) - a plant. BILKA - medicinal plant (BPhAM) barishte = bilka? You mean they have b in common?
buza (alb.) - oral. BUZA - Lateral Lower Face (BPhAM) buza - lips
Gjuhë (Albanian) - language. Djuka- Oral (BPhAM) Is that a word? Google translate doesn't give anything
kënd (alb.) - angle. KAT - a separate place next to the wall of the room, maybe in the corner. (BPhAM) similar? it's most similar to corner, especially kon - dialektal
tul (alb.) - deboned meat. SHOL - boned lean meat (free of tendons, fat and cartilage) from the top of beef leg (BPhAM) eh
Burrë (alb.) - man, husband. Bre, Be - interjection address to a male person (BPhAM) - BRe loanword from us since we use it and it's different from your word for man?
Grua (alb.) - woman. DJOFRA- woman (mockingly, in the sense of ugly, shapeless, amused, crushed, unfriendly, unattractive · unclean, suspicious). (BPhAM) really?
Rrush (alb.) - grapes. RUEN, RUINO- Occurs in the expression "ruinous wine" = "good wine from grapes".(BPhAM) really?

Another type of proto-Bulgarianism can be found in modern Albanian. Unlike the above, this type of proto-Bulgarianism was used by medieval Bulgarians, which is why Albanians could borrow it from them. These words cannot clarify the origin of (part of) the Albanians, but we cite them because of their large number. In the mentioned Albanian words "ë" is read as "Ъ".

kuts, kut, kute, ken - dog. Corresponds to the Bulgarian non-Slavic word "kuche" / dog and kutre / puppy, which has proto-Bulgarian, Indo-Iranian origin: Avestan kuti, Hindu-Urdu kuta, Sogdian kwty, Yagnob kud, Huff, Rushan kid, kud, Sarikol, Ishashim kud Shugnan kut, Yazgulem k`od, Sanglichi kod, Khovar keni, Nuristan kua, Ossetian kuædz, kuædzme, qæwdyn, Pashto kutraj, Talish kūtile - dog. / VS-ETD /, / IED / В тох. / Б / ku, kuwa, kuñiye [J. Voinikov].
we use qen - most similar to cane, kuci is a little dog - dialectal

kerpe - towel Corresponds to the Bulgarian non-Slavic word "karpa" - "a piece of cloth" of Indo-Iranian origin. As a derivative of the all-Iranian ker - I cut, we can mention the Wahan, Ishashim, Sarikol kerpa - cotton blanket. In Tajik kurpa - cotton suit. It has entered Tajik. In Sanskrit karpaţa, Pali Pakpaţam, Prakrit Kappаda, Pashto and Hindi-Urdu kapra, Nepali kapar, Kashmiri khāpara - fabric
nope, we use peshqir


stopan - owner (Stopanin-Proto-Bulgarian, East-Iranian word) - Nope, pronar

buyar, bular (buyaresha) - (Medieval Bulgarian administrative title from the proto-Bulgarian boil, boilar- It's an anacronism in that sense but it is used as generous bujar

Golem - a medieval feudal lord, a nobleman in southern Albania. Italian medieval documents note that the Albanian rulers were called by the nickname υουλάμος, Golem, translated as Grande. Selishchev notes that Golem / Goljam is also widespread as a toponym in southern Albania. Even in the Peloponnese there is a village Γχολέμιον. The word "big" has East Iranian origins. In the Bulgarian language the word Golem / Goljam means Grande
Golem means nothing except for toponyms


koftšek - wall cupboard for storing bread. This word is a loanword from Old Bulgarian, where there is a word Kofcheg - chest. This word is also used in many Slavic languages, but is considered proto-Bulgarian. Hence the word Kofchegnik / treasurer - Doesn't exist as a word


chuke - mountain peak. In the old Bulgarian chuka, chukar / synonymous with rocky peak, sharp rock. In Sanskrit sikhara means peak (sik) in the mountain (hara). nope, peak - maje

chuk - hammer. In Bulgarian chuk, with the same pronunciation and meaning nope, cekic - turkish

Sara godina - in Elbasan and the surrounding area this is a New Year's greeting of the local Albanians, which corresponds to the Bulgarian - Surva year. - Doesn't exist

zakon - habit, custom, way. Compare with Old Bulgarian. "law", borrowed in all Slavic languages and in Greek. Proto-slavonic

metške - a bear. According to A. Selishchev, it is an old Bulgarian loanword. The Bulgarian non-Slavic word Mechka / bear has almost completely replaced the Slavic Medved / bear. Nope, ariu

Štek, štegu - I walk, pass, travel [B. Tsonev - IBE-2, p. 172] - Bulgarian. Shtakam (synonymous with I walk, I move back and forth, I do something purposefully (without seeing what)) of East Iranian origin: Avestan sac, šāti, Middle Persian sc, sаz, - Shteg it's actually a little path, eci, kaloj, udhetoj are the verbs

Biser - pearl (proto-Bulgarian word) - Nope, perla

Buburike - (from the dictionary of Prof. Weigand) - Babrek- kidney, an obvious Bulgarian loanword with proto-Bulgarian. origin Nope, veshka

Vikas - I shout, I say - a Bulgarian loanword of Avestan origin. With the same sound and meaning in the modern Bulgarian language - dialektal, bertas, therras more commonly

pallë - sword. It coincides with the Old Bulgarian "palash" - sword, which has a Sanskrit etymology - in Sanskrit pales - cutting. - Shpate, but it is an anachronism

miždhóm - salary. In Old Bulgarian "mizda" - remuneration. It is of Aryan-Avestan origin, in Avestan mı̄̆ždəm, in Sanskrit mīḍhám - salary - Nope, never. Page, Pagese, rroge

čupa - girl çupkё - unmarried girl, girl. Corresponds to the Bulgarian dialect word "Chupe" - girl. This is a proto-Bulgarian word, related to the Chuvash "sapu", the Yazgulem zaif - woman, girl. cupa - sapu - zaif eh. We also use vajze, cike, goce

njerëzor, njeriut - man (from the Avestan nar, nair - man, man), compare the Bulgarian Nerez - Uncollected male breeding pig. Nice one


ngrëna - food, typically Bulgarian word HRANA with Pamir roots (ë reads "Ъ"). We use ushqim for food, but ngrena is the passive of hengra - ate


zapana - owner, owner. Compare with the Avar and Proto-Bulgarian military title "Zhupan" - Nope, pronar

korδ-a - sword. According to St. Mladenov, this is a loanword from Old Bulgarian, where there was a word cord, cord - a sword of Iranian origin. Occupied in many Slavic languages. - Anachronism, we use shpate


kátš - weaver. It is considered an old Bulgarian loanword. The word "kat" = a garment among the proto-Bulgarians. Today in the Bulgarian language it is synonymous with Layer, layer, Set of clothes for one dress. Not sure what they mean, clothes are rroba

kerš - hill It is considered to be a loanword from Old Bulgarian, where there was a word krsha, krut - rock. We find it in Ossetian, where karsh (krsh) means ridge. Occupied in Abkhazian kiriš - ridge, Kabardian kıiūыrš, Abaza kıiūыrč - rocky mountain. - Nope, never heard it - hill -koder


varg, chain - chain. In Bulgarian veriga -chain is obviously a proto-Bulgarian word with clear Tocharian-Ossetian analogues: in Ossetian uærdæg, uærdæx, Kurdish weirs


gugugce - a dove. In Romanian gugugstiuca - dove, in Latin turtur. Prof. P. Dobrev rightly connects the Bulgarian "gugutka" with the Pamir gugugštuka, guguraka - wild pigeon, which shows the proto-Bulgarian origin of this non-Slavic word. - anacronism we use pellumb


matca, mace, mačok - cat, cat. Corresponds to the Bulgarian non-Slavic word cat, babe, babe - cat. Shafarik points to the Slovak cat - cat, as an old Bulgarian loanword. Occupied in Serbian cat, Croatian, Slovenian cat, Hungarian macska, Romanian maţa - cat, cat. The word was discovered as a relic of the language of the Alcek Bulgarians in Italy, a mosque, a mosque - a cat that entered modern times. Italian as mischo-cat, which shows a probable proto-Bulgarian origin.

bari, berr - shepherd, sheep. Compare with the old Bulgarian BARAN - ram, borrowed in Russian and the Bulgarian dialect "baranka" - sheep. Also compare with the Bulgarian BACHIA - association of shepherds - owners


To the above words can be added Albanian isoglosses of ancient, original Bulgarian words of non-Slavic origin:


pluhur - powder (notice the Sarmatian transformation R - L, in the Bulgarian dialects "Prahor" = Prah- powder)


përrua - flow. Compare with the Bulgarian "torrent" - a river formed after rain (absent in the Slavic languages). Torrent is in English as well...


jug - south (ne jug - south). The word "south" is present in many Slavic languages (excluding Polish, Belarusian and Ukrainian), but has no Slavic etymology.




kertšmar - innkeeper. Old Bulgarian loanword, derived from the Iranian word "krchag" - pitcher, jar. - Never heard this, hanxhi is the word

[Hulu]

You have my comments in most of the words above, too lazy to highlight them all. Who is the author of this "study" Albanian has actual linguists who studied it, it's useless posting stuff like this.

[Laku]

You have my comments in most of the words above, too lazy to highlight them all. Who is the author of this "study" Albanian has actual linguists who studied it, it's useless posting stuff like this.

I didn't know that Bulgarians are also part of our fan club.

[Novi Pazar]

“Albanian is an indo-european language, so it has similarities to all the languages in this group. It is considered to have both centum and satem elements, one of the reasons linguists considered it as a very old language compare to modern european languages, together with the fact that it retains old core words that are present in latin, ancient greek and ancient germanic languages - I will mention water - uje. It is similar to the old Dutch ij ( or French eau) which was then replaced by water and its variants in Germanic and Northern Europe.”

And how is that? Normans (French and Anglo-Saxons branch) with their Varangians (Russo-Balts) made their conquests in Southern Italy and Arabic Sicily, then via Maniakes settle in Serbia (modern Shqiperia). Interestingly, in Maniakes’ army there were Berbers and Arabs, even Maniakes wasn’t Greek but an Armenian and Armenians were with him who also settle in the Raban.

Do you Shqiptars know more Berbers from the Lucera were brought over to Shqiperia, later. We even find Berber contribution to Shqiperisht, look at all those nasalised constanants like N’ga etc….

Shqiptars are essentially a mutt race of multiple peoples, the Slavo-Serb being largest, then your Normans, Berbers, Arabs, Latins and Greeks.

[Laku]

^More on these beautiful serbian traditions, from the deep steppes of Asia.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapot

Now we know why the son kill his father in Serbian society, because o this snohačenje, trying to clean this dirty, this impure blood. But the story repeats it's a vicious circle.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?356208-Serbian-demographic-and-albanian-brides&p=7394034&viewfull=1#post7394034

[Varda]

^More on these beautiful serbian traditions, from the deep steppes of Asia.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapot

Now we know why the son kill his father in Serbian society, because o this snohačenje, trying to clean this dirty, this impure blood. But the story repeats it's a vicious circle.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?356208-Serbian-demographic-and-albanian-brides&p=7394034&viewfull=1#post7394034

"Lapot" was Vlach tradition from eastern Serbia, same as 'Vlach Magic' https://www.vice.com/en/article/kwxdxw/vlach-magic-murder-and-misunderstanding-093

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs_of_Serbia

[Laku]

"Lapot" was Vlach tradition from eastern Serbia, same as 'Vlach Magic' https://www.vice.com/en/article/kwxdxw/vlach-magic-murder-and-misunderstanding-093

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs_of_Serbia

I don't see nothing about lapot in the links that you have posted. It's not serious attacking other ethnic groups because you feel shame of these your asiatic traditions.

That Lapot really was a custom practiced by Serbs in the past is supported by the fact that there are legends from South Baltic which tell us that Sorbs there also practiced the same custom:

"During heathen times the Sorbian Wends of Lužice practiced the shameful and gruesome custom of ridding themselves of their old people who were no longer able to contribute. A son would strike his own father dead when he became old and incompetent, or he would throw him into water, or he would push him over a high cliff. Indeed, there are many examples of this, even after the advent of Christianity. In olden times many heathens lived around here, and it is still told how they put to death old people who were over sixty years of age..."
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-PS5pCZzsUs4/WKIjhXM0TNI/AAAAAAAAJNc/3dXK2fjoCcwE4qnjY6eqI3Lnh2s4ze4KgCLcB/s320/lapot%2B1.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KDIXnIv3BMQ/WKIjirxBQ1I/AAAAAAAAJOA/flYVvf8Ha5A9yntAmB-y-M4z8oxK0CqJwCLcB/s320/lapot%2B2.jpg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-FJVB6bZHLNY/WKIjjMH_AWI/AAAAAAAAJOM/SjGGWkNbzcQNQe5JaerCEqTvhC1ZMqrmACLcB/s320/lapot%2B3.jpg
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-_Di8CZ00qoo/WKIjjRJozQI/AAAAAAAAJOU/SdIfFRi7F3gpSdnCZqMOrLb8NNP3udq8wCLcB/s320/lapot%2B4.jpg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OAYZRGGtkNI/WKIjjj05pyI/AAAAAAAAJOY/IpyglDnmdKgGD73fdzxGnnMKSWhNFFd7QCLcB/s320/lapot%2B6.jpg
https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Nr2IWGhiIMk/WKIjjw4dTgI/AAAAAAAAJOc/YoFg0Cp6QKADv0BODb2RZ1VwV06VQyVOQCLcB/s320/lapot%2B7.jpg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SeJPlLijCNg/WKIjkBOe7HI/AAAAAAAAJOk/wj2zQFdMX5YmWnq5DNuDVxs-_hZzgrfFgCLcB/s320/lapot%2B9.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-VjvbjLRLuRs/WKIjhF0cbrI/AAAAAAAAJNY/V8IVwx5uiYI20lar6BTfCs5YjFjddU-ugCLcB/s320/lapot%2B11.jpg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-pa3pfJ6Yhns/WKIjhjIN9_I/AAAAAAAAJNs/4j1_RyZ92f4uC2hIZcnGUiDNbUejLku6wCLcB/s320/lapot%2B14.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-KnDEONqZ7Ss/WKIjiIYFg7I/AAAAAAAAJN0/Z0WIO8-gObolBY6cega1dv4UwTUrZRs3gCLcB/s320/lapot%2B16.jpg
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rqsr5j3cZn0/WKIjibSrmkI/AAAAAAAAJN4/9GYVoX0WwuAp9-cYPpxEwkic7mJMQtGbgCLcB/s320/lapot%2B18.jpg
In Montenegro this custom was slightly different. There the elderly was taken to the mountain accompanied by the whole village. The elderly lied down on a platform made from compressed dirt. and clump of wool was placed on his head...
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Fptsd9ueIdA/YE4BDAHNHNI/AAAAAAAAT0g/vmNCFP4c7rQwIYfcppoDunIx0BmwiZquQCLcBGAsYHQ/s320/lapot%2Bmontenegro%2B2.png
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-f36oqjoI7S0/YE4BDKJ6GQI/AAAAAAAAT0k/sudVcxUdTeAAyX1FMifdsMEj8hGjIgbewCLcBGAsYHQ/s320/lapot%2Bmontenegro%2B1.png

[Novi Pazar]

^More on these beautiful serbian traditions, from the deep steppes of Asia.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapot

Now we know why the son kill his father in Serbian society, because o this snohačenje, trying to clean this dirty, this impure blood. But the story repeats it's a vicious circle.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?356208-Serbian-demographic-and-albanian-brides&p=7394034&viewfull=1#post7394034

Laku, you decide to bring this up, that is okay, it doesn’t bother me. Many Serbian traditions were sent to Asia, especially India, as they burn their dead, just as Serbs used to. India, the northerners, can thank ancient Serbs…..Sanskrit is an old Serbian dialect from India. However, Shqiptars have a tradition which modern LGBTQ plus would be stunned, the brotherhood union, do you know of this?

[Novi Pazar]

Laku, l know too much of your Shqiptar folk. Even the name Shqiptar is connected to Sloven, as Shqiptoj = Sloven. The name Shqiptar began to be used by your mixed up people around the 18th cent.

[Laku]

Laku, you decide to bring this up, that is okay, it doesn’t bother me. Many Serbian traditions were sent to Asia, especially India, as they burn their dead, just as Serbs used to. India, the northerners, can thank ancient Serbs…..Sanskrit is an old Serbian dialect from India. However, Shqiptars have a tradition which modern LGBTQ plus would be stunned, the brotherhood union, do you know of this?
In which society in the world are present these traditions of snohačenje and lapot? A father in law having sexual relations with the bride of his own son? And later this son killing his father? Do you have any personal experience of this kind? If yes, can you please share with us?

[Kaspias]

.

This is an obvious "Iranic Proto-Bulgar" propaganda, isn't it? Connecting IE Albanian to the Proto Bulgarness is the new trend? Anyone who can speak more than two Balkan languages can prove that more than half of these claims are false, without even additional research.

[PAGANE]

Just prove it and you will have the opportunity to shine in the scientific community, especially linguists.

[Laku]

Just prove it and you will have the opportunity to shine in the scientific community, especially linguists.



P.S.
The "article" start with these words:

In Italian the Albanians are called Arberishtja or Arberichte,
It`s not true.


albanése
Vocabolario on line

Condividi
albanése agg. e s. m. e f. – 1. a. Della Repubblica di Albania; come sost., abitante, nativo, originario dell’Albania (v. anche schipetaro). Il nome è esteso anche agli abitanti di colonie albanesi in Turchia, Grecia, Dalmazia, e, in partic., di quelle formatesi per immigrazione in varie zone dell’Italia merid. e della Sicilia. Nel sec. 14° furono chiamati albanesi i soldati di cavalleria leggera più noti come cappelletti o stradiotti, in quanto reclutati dalla repubblica di Venezia nella penisola balcanica. b. s. m. Lingua indoeuropea di tipo satem parlata in Albania. 2. Relativo a località che hanno il toponimo di Albano (Albano di Lucania in prov. di Potenza, Albano Sant’Alessandro in prov. di Bergamo, Albano Vercellese in prov. di Vercelli); come sost., abitante o nativo di tali località.
Source: https://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/albanese
This so-called scholar quoted by you is an idiot. It's up to you to explain why you quote here idiots from your country.

[Kaspias]

Just prove it and you will have the opportunity to shine in the scientific community, especially linguists.

Is that easy to shine in the academy? :D

Just to give an example, analysing the ones listed first.


kuts, kut, kute, ken - dog. Corresponds to the Bulgarian non-Slavic word "kuche" / dog and kutre / puppy, which has proto-Bulgarian, Indo-Iranian origin: Avestan kuti, Hindu-Urdu kuta, Sogdian kwty, Yagnob kud, Huff, Rushan kid, kud, Sarikol, Ishashim kud Shugnan kut, Yazgulem k`od, Sanglichi kod, Khovar keni, Nuristan kua, Ossetian kuædz, kuædzme, qæwdyn, Pashto kutraj, Talish kūtile - dog. / VS-ETD /, / IED / В тох. / Б / ku, kuwa, kuñiye [J. Voinikov].


Loaned from Turkish "kuçu" means "small dog".


kerpe - towel Corresponds to the Bulgarian non-Slavic word "karpa" - "a piece of cloth" of Indo-Iranian origin. As a derivative of the all-Iranian ker - I cut, we can mention the Wahan, Ishashim, Sarikol kerpa - cotton blanket. In Tajik kurpa - cotton suit. It has entered Tajik. In Sanskrit karpaţa, Pali Pakpaţam, Prakrit Kappаda, Pashto and Hindi-Urdu kapra, Nepali kapar, Kashmiri khāpara - fabric


It's daily usage is "havliena karpa" and the havliena is Turkish "havlu" means towel, karpa is present in Bosnian in the form of krpa, Slavic origin?



chuke - mountain peak. In the old Bulgarian chuka, chukar / synonymous with rocky peak, sharp rock. In Sanskrit sikhara means peak (sik) in the mountain (hara).

chuk - hammer. In Bulgarian chuk, with the same pronunciation and meaning

Çük, means "dick" and equal to Turkish "sik". Also used in the meanings of peak and weapon.


Buburike - (from the dictionary of Prof. Weigand) - Babrek- kidney, an obvious Bulgarian loanword with proto-Bulgarian. origin

"Böbrek", means kidney, from Turkish.


stopan - owner (Stopanin-Proto-Bulgarian, East-Iranian word) - Nope, pronar


From Greek "spiti" house and/or landowner "spitionoikokiris"


buyar, bular (buyaresha) - (Medieval Bulgarian administrative title from the proto-Bulgarian boil, boilar- It's an anacronism in that sense but it is used as generous bujar


From Proto-Turkic "bol-yar", means noble and rich.


Golem - a medieval feudal lord, a nobleman in southern Albania. Italian medieval documents note that the Albanian rulers were called by the nickname υουλάμος, Golem, translated as Grande. Selishchev notes that Golem / Goljam is also widespread as a toponym in southern Albania. Even in the Peloponnese there is a village Γχολέμιον. The word "big" has East Iranian origins. In the Bulgarian language the word Golem / Goljam means Grande
Golem means nothing except for toponyms

Golem is from early Ottoman "Gulam" which means Kapikulu in modern and recent Ottoman Turkish. Kapikulu soldiers were protecting strategically important regions such as mountain passes, and towns. Janissaries were included in the Kapikulu system, too.

[Mejgusu]

I like how Turkish loanwards have ambiguous meanings ahahahaha.

Btw, köter which means dog in German which sounds familiar with kuta.

[Hulu]

To reiterate: We have qen - dog ( similar to canis - latin or cane - italian. And kuci - small dog, similar to cucciolo - italian for small dog. Prob indo-european since Germans have koter.

towel = peshqir. I would have thought this is turkish but it isn't aparently.

mountain peak - maje

kidney - veshka

owner - pronar from prona - property

bujar - generous

Golem - toponym, but apparently jews and russians use this as a mystical creature.

[Laku]

To reiterate: We have qen - dog ( similar to canis - latin or cane - italian. And kuci - small dog, similar to cucciolo - italian for small dog. Prob indo-european since Germans have koter.

towel = peshqir. I would have thought this is turkish but it isn't aparently.

mountain peak - maje

kidney - veshka

owner - pronar from prona - property

bujar - generous

Golem - toponym, but apparently jews and russians use this as a mystical creature.

Why you are wasting your time? The so-called "bulgarian study" it`s totally a stupidity. Many of the words are not used in Albanian Language. I don`t know where he has found those words.

[Hulu]

Why you are wasting your time? The so-called "bulgarian study" it`s totally a stupidity. Many of the words are not used in Albanian Language. I don`t know where he has found those words.

It was a response to Kaspias for comparison but I didn't want to quote the whole text. Besides, I like Pagane and I want to inform her. That's why we are here.

[Kaspias]

To reiterate: We have qen - dog ( similar to canis - latin or cane - italian. And kuci - small dog, similar to cucciolo - italian for small dog. Prob indo-european since Germans have koter.

towel = peshqir. I would have thought this is turkish but it isn't aparently.

mountain peak - maje

kidney - veshka

owner - pronar from prona - property

bujar - generous

Golem - toponym, but apparently jews and russians use this as a mystical creature.

Peşkir is common in Eastern dialects of Turkish whilst Havlu is common in the West. Albanians and Bosniaks have got it in the form of peşkir due to the fact that dervishes settled there have got ultimate Khorasan Turkmen origin, while Bulgarians got it in the form of havlu because they lived together with the Yoruk/Turkish population.

[Laku]

It was a response to Kaspias for comparison but I didn't want to quote the whole text. Besides, I like Pagane and I want to inform her. That's why we are here.

I don`t think she is interested to be informed. Anyway....

[Laku]

Peşkir is common in Eastern dialects of Turkish whilst Havlu is common in the West. Albanians and Bosniaks have got it in the form of peşkir due to the fact that dervishes settled there have got ultimate Khorasan Turkmen origin, while Bulgarians got it in the form of havlu because they lived together with the Yoruk/Turkish population.

Yes, it`s true. But Golem is not from Turkish or from bulgarian. It`s the name Goulielm transformed in Golem long before Turkish occupation.

[Kaspias]

Yes, it`s true. But Golem is not from Turkish or from bulgarian. It`s the name Goulielm transformed in Golem long befeore Turkish occupation.

It can be. I haven't researched on these specifically, just stating my daily knowledge as it looks like a very poor propaganda effort which is based on proving that Proto Bulgars were of Iranic origin. You may take the suggestion "Gulam" as an alternative theory or not take it at all.

[Hulu]

Peşkir is common in Eastern dialects of Turkish whilst Havlu is common in the West. Albanians and Bosniaks have got it in the form of peşkir due to the fact that dervishes settled there have got ultimate Khorasan Turkmen origin, while Bulgarians got it in the form of havlu because they lived together with the Yoruk/Turkish population.

I don't know any dervishes that settled there. Our genetics don't show any trace at all from that region. It's probably indo-european because it is old persian.

[Kaspias]

I don't know any dervishes that settled there. Our genetics don't show any trace at all from that region. It's probably indo-european because it is old persian.

Islam was introduced through dervishes in Albania as there were no Turkish settlements in masses. During the conversion process, almost every settlement belonged to a dervish who taught Turkish-Islam culture. That's why Albania is the house of Bektashism now. Having a dervish settlement doesn't mean you have to have that genetic input, they were just missioners settled there, even if they mixed with Albanians it would be absorbed easily as they were very low in population compared to the local people.

Peşkir is a loanword from Farsi(during Seljuks) to Turkish, and I believe from Turkish to some of the Balkan languages. This looks like having more chance compared to having a deeper root.

[Hulu]

Islam was introduced through dervishes in Albania as there were no Turkish settlements in masses. During the conversion process, almost every settlement belonged to a dervish who taught Turkish-Islam culture. That's why Albania is the house of Bektashism now. Having a dervish settlement doesn't mean you have to have that genetic input, they were just missioners settled there, even if they mixed with Albanians it would be absorbed easily as they were very low in population compared to the local people.

Peşkir is a loanword from Farsi(during Seljuks) to Turkish, and I believe from Turkish to some of the Balkan languages. This looks like having more chance compared to having a deeper root.

It's only a small region in south Albania that are Bektashi,. 99% are sunni. In theory of course. It's bizzarre to say Albania is the house of Bektashism since only a few thousands people identify as such. That includes the non-practising ones.
So I find it very unlikely that his marginal group would have influenced a national word.

[Kaspias]

It's only a small region in south Albania that are Bektashi,. 99% are sunni. In theory of course. It's bizzarre to say Albania is the house of Bektashism since only a few thousands people identify as such. That includes the non-practising ones.

Bektashism almost has vanished (they were mostly converted to mainstream Alevism and Sunnism) and has got a very limited number of practicers now. A considerable amount of the population, as well as the headquarter tekke of the Bektashism, is in Albania. Before the removal of all tekkes from Turkey it was in Turkey. Prior to the 18th century all Albanian population -including some Balkan Turkish population and all of the Muslim South Slavs- were Bektashi, as Ottomans took a position as Sunnis they as a whole are re-converted to Sunnism.

[Hulu]

Bektashism almost has vanished (they were mostly converted to mainstream Alevism and Sunnism) and has got a very limited number of practicers now. A considerable amount of the population, as well as the headquarter tekke of the Bektashism, is in Albania. Before the removal of all tekkes from Turkey it was in Turkey. Prior to the 18th century all Albanian population -including some Balkan Turkish population and all of the Muslim South Slavs- were Bektashi, as Ottomans took a position as Sunnis they as a whole are re-converted to Sunnism.

First time I hear this but I'll take your word for it.

[Hulu]

Kaspias, do you (Bulgarian or Turkish) use futa or shtupa for towel. Futa is arabic (tunisian) and shtupa - persian. We use both words in dialects but they are anachronisms now. Also they are cotton towels, not the terry towel.

[Novi Pazar]

In which society in the world are present these traditions of snohačenje and lapot? A father in law having sexual relations with the bride of his own son? And later this son killing his father? Do you have any personal experience of this kind? If yes, can you please share with us?

Yes there are unique traditions for a people and Albanians are no different with their brotherhood unions!

Anyway, can you tell us here why Shqiptarisht have these nasalised consonants, the words M’broj or N’ga (some have made this connection to Vietnam).

The Tagelmust?????

[Laku]

Yes there are unique traditions for a people and Albanians are no different with their brotherhood unions!

Anyway, can you tell us here why Shqiptarisht have these nasalised consonants, the words M’broj or N’ga (some have made this connection to Vietnam).

The Tagelmust?????
There are not nasalised consonants on the Albanian words Mbroj and not M'broj or Nga and not N'ga. Anyway, you can quote these people who have made this connection with Vietnam. Or it's just a bs invented by you? Let see.
Did your father helped you the first night when you married?

[Novi Pazar]

I don't know any dervishes that settled there. Our genetics don't show any trace at all from that region. It's probably indo-european because it is old persian.

Maybe it’s the connection between Mardaites ====> Mirdites? There is a connection to Asia Minor and Caucasus 100%, the name Gheg is found throughout Armenia.

[Novi Pazar]

There are not nasalised consonants on the Albanian words Mbroj and not M'broj or Nga and not N'ga. Anyway, you can quote these people who have made this connection with Vietnam. Or it's just a bs invented by you? Let see.
Did your father helped you the first night when you married?

The word like Nga has N emphasised.

Why does Shqiptarisht use ‘BORE’ for snow and Maltese ‘BORRA’. The connection of your proto Shqiptars to Arabic Sicily.

Btw, Marjorie Chibnall explains that medieval Latin name 'albani', means"aliens" and it denotes those who, as foreigners, were not subjects of the country in which they had settled!

[Laku]

The word like Nga has N emphasised.

Why does Shqiptarisht use ‘BORE’ for snow and Maltese ‘BORRA’. The connection of your proto Shqiptars to Arabic Sicily.

Btw, Marjorie Chibnall explains that medieval Latin name 'albani', means"aliens" and it denotes those who, as foreigners, were not subjects of the country in which they had settled!

Did you forget to elaborate this connection with Vietnam? Or it was your invention?
BTW, what's the connection of Serbs with Avars? I have heard some funny stories.

[Hulu]

Maybe it’s the connection between Mardaites ====> Mirdites? There is a connection to Asia Minor and Caucasus 100%, the name Gheg is found throughout Armenia.

Novi you should study genetics a bit and you won't even make these questions. If you wanna find something exotic look out in Africa. You have a connection to Armenia and Caucasus via Scythians.

[Novi Pazar]

Did you forget to elaborate this connection with Vietnam? Or it was your invention?
BTW, what's the connection of Serbs with Avars? I have heard some funny stories.

Have a look, Nga is a word used in South East Asian countries. However in my opinion, yes it’s not of East Asian origin, it’s strikingly of Berber/African origin, many African languages use these nasalised consonants and with Alb-Shqiptarisht they have many words of Berber origin just like Germanic through Norman ancestry.

Serbs and Avars? Laku , I’m not interested exploring histories penned by the Vatican during the 16th cent. I’m interested in real histories that have logic, l noticed here the name Abereshe brought up? Arbereshe has its origins through the Latin Arborea, this Arbereshe literally means a ‘Norman Forest Dweller’ and Arborea has its origins through the Serbian name RABAN (Highland Forest - Pines). Do you notice that if RA is switched around we get AR (metathesis) and RABAN is now Arban, as Greeks don’t have B we get Arvan B to V, then for a group of people it becomes Arvaniti or Arvanites!

There is way more to this.

[Novi Pazar]

Novi you should study genetics a bit and you won't even make these questions. If you wanna find something exotic look out in Africa. You have a connection to Armenia and Caucasus via Scythians.

Majority of Serbs belong to Haplogroup I, native Europeans then in Second place are both Steppe and African R1a and EV13.

[Laku]

Have a look, Nga is a word used in South East Asian countries. However in my opinion, yes it’s not of East Asian origin, it’s strikingly of Berber/African origin, many African languages use these nasalised consonants and with Alb-Shqiptarisht they have many words of Berber origin just like Germanic through Norman ancestry.
I want to repeat again my question. Who are these people who have made this connection between Albanian and Vietnamese language? Could you tell us a single name?

Serbs and Avars? Laku , I’m not interested exploring histories penned by the Vatican during the 16th cent. I’m interested in real histories that have logic, l noticed here the name Abereshe brought up? Arbereshe has its origins through the Latin Arborea, this Arbereshe literally means a ‘Norman Forest Dweller’ and Arborea has its origins through the Serbian name RABAN (Highland Forest - Pines). Do you notice that if RA is switched around we get AR (metathesis) and RABAN is now Arban, as Greeks don’t have B we get Arvan B to V, then for a group of people it becomes Arvaniti or Arvanites!

There is way more to this.

Pain in the butt? :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

[Novi Pazar]

^ it seriously doesn’t worry me because l know the truth.

Anyway check this out:

https://www.wordsense.eu/nga/

[Laku]

^ it seriously doesn’t worry me because l know the truth.

Anyway check this out:

https://www.wordsense.eu/nga/
You are really an idiot. Following your stupidity i want to ask why Albanian is connected with Vietnamese and not for example with Irish, from your link:
nga (Irish)
Noun
nga (masc.)

Eclipsis of ga

Or should we say that Irish language is connected with Vietnamese? Do you realise what kind of idiot you are?
Let me give you an example. The word mut. It`s an word used in 20 languages in Europe and around the world. Here you have the link:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mut
Novi Pazar are a mut but in Albanian, or better a piece of mut.
Get a life idiot.

[Laku]

^ it seriously doesn’t worry me because l know the truth.

Anyway check this out:

https://www.wordsense.eu/nga/
You are really an idiot. Following your stupidity i want to ask why Albanian is connected with Vietnamese and not for example with Irish, from your link:
nga (Irish)
Noun
nga (masc.)

Eclipsis of ga

Or should we say that Irish language is connected with Vietnamese? Do you realise what kind of idiot you are?
Let me give you an example. The word mut. It`s an word used in 20 languages in Europe and around the world. Here you have the link:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mut
Novi Pazar you are a mut but in Albanian, or better a piece of mut.
Get a life idiot.

[Kaspias]

Kaspias, do you (Bulgarian or Turkish) use futa or shtupa for towel. Futa is arabic (tunisian) and shtupa - persian. We use both words in dialects but they are anachronisms now. Also they are cotton towels, not the terry towel.

Futa is common in Pomak. It usually means cotton towel but also can mean anything made by cotton. A traditional Pomak dress is also called futa. It is present in Turkish, too, but it is an anachronism now. Futa also might be loaned from Persian, despite having Arabic roots, I recall Azerbaijanis were also using it.

First time have heard about shtupa.

[Laku]

Futa is common in Pomak. It usually means cotton towel but also can mean anything made by cotton. A traditional Pomak dress is also called futa. It is present in Turkish, too, but it is an anachronism now. Futa also might be loaned from Persian, despite having Arabic roots, I recall Azerbaijanis were also using it.

First time have heard about shtupa.

Futa in Albanian is apron in English. But the main word for apron in Albanian is përparëse.

[Novi Pazar]

You are really an idiot. Following your stupidity i want to ask why Albanian is connected with Vietnamese and not for example with Irish, from your link:
nga (Irish)
Noun
nga (masc.)

Eclipsis of ga

Or should we say that Irish language is connected with Vietnamese? Do you realise what kind of idiot you are?
Let me give you an example. The word mut. It`s an word used in 20 languages in Europe and around the world. Here you have the link:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mut
Novi Pazar are a mut but in Albanian, or better a piece of mut.
Get a life idiot.

Yes thank you! Nga is also connected to Cebuano, Gamilaraay, Kimaragang, Vietnamese.

Look below from:

https://vietnamdaily.ca/language/how-to-pronounce-ng-in-vietnamese/

“ŋ – Voiced Velar Nasal

The Ng-sound is its own distinct sound that is represented by the character ŋ in the International Phonetic Alphabet. It is officially referred to as the voiced velar nasal.

The sound occurs in a variety of languages such as Chinese, Albanian, Moari, and even English. However, in most languages (like English), it is rare to begin a word with ŋ.”

English, well there is this Germanic-Tai puzzle that many authors talk about, some postulate the men of R1b must had some contacts with East Asians before arriving to the Euro continent.

[Laku]

Yes thank you! Nga is also connected to Cebuano, Gamilaraay, Kimaragang, Vietnamese.

Look below from:

https://vietnamdaily.ca/language/how-to-pronounce-ng-in-vietnamese/

“ŋ – Voiced Velar Nasal

The Ng-sound is its own distinct sound that is represented by the character ŋ in the International Phonetic Alphabet. It is officially referred to as the voiced velar nasal.

The sound occurs in a variety of languages such as Chinese, Albanian, Moari, and even English. However, in most languages (like English), it is rare to begin a word with ŋ.”

English, well there is this Germanic-Tai puzzle that many authors talk about, some postulate the men of R1b must had some contacts with East Asians before arriving to the Euro continent.

And what is your point here? What are you trying to prove?

[Novi Pazar]

And what is your point here? What are you trying to prove?

All l basically said some have linked aspects of Albanian-Shqip to South East Asian, but this nasalised consonants found in your language proves your partial ancestry to the Berber tribes of Africa. Berbers and many other languages of Africa are known for this phenomenon of nasalised consonants, okay. Why did l mention Tuglemusk? Berber and Albanian are 100% the same!

[Laku]

All l basically said some have linked aspects of Albanian-Shqip to South East Asian, but this nasalised consonants found in your language proves your partial ancestry to the Berber tribes of Africa. Berbers and many other languages of Africa are known for this phenomenon of nasalised consonants, okay. Why did l mention Tuglemusk? Berber and Albanian are 100% the same!

So, according to you, Berber and Albanian are 100% the same because in six languages,
Albanian
Cebuano
Irish
Gamilaraay
Kimaragang
Vietnamese
there is a word nga. Of course, this nga in Albanian is different from nga in Irish or Vietnamese. Only a stupid person, a piece of mut can make such conclusions. Now, i will put my self in your role and i will continue this your idiot game.

You are really an idiot. Following your stupidity i want to ask why Albanian is connected with Vietnamese and not for example with Irish, from your link:
nga (Irish)
Noun
nga (masc.)

Eclipsis of ga

Or should we say that Irish language is connected with Vietnamese? Do you realise what kind of idiot you are?
Let me give you an example. The word mut. It`s an word used in 20 languages in Europe and around the world. Here you have the link:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mut
Novi Pazar are a mut but in Albanian, or better a piece of mut.
Get a life idiot.

As you can see this word nga is also in Irish language. Pay atention to the underlined ga. If you click in the Irish word ga you will see that this ga is used in many languages, here is the link:
https://www.wordsense.eu/ga/#Irish
ga ‎ in

Dutch
Ewe
Fijian
Irish
Japanese
Lojban
Lower Sorbian
Mandarin
Manx
Norwegian Bokmål
Scottish Gaelic
Serbo-Croatian
Venetian
Vietnamese
Welsh
Zazaki
Zhuang
You can see that the word ga is used in Serbian, Lower Sorbian and Ewe Language (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ewe_language) among many other languages.

Ewe (Eʋe or Eʋegbe [ɛβɛɡ͡bɛ])[2] is a language spoken in Togo and southeastern Ghana by approximately 6.61 million people as a first language and a million or so more as a second language.[1] Ewe is part of a cluster of related languages commonly called Gbe; the other major Gbe language is Fon of Benin. Like many African languages, Ewe is tonal and also spoken in the Niger-Congo.

The German Africanist Diedrich Hermann Westermann published many dictionaries and grammars of Ewe and several other Gbe languages. Other linguists who have worked on Ewe and closely related languages include Gilbert Ansre (tone, syntax), Herbert Stahlke (morphology, tone), Nick Clements (tone, syntax), Roberto Pazzi (anthropology, lexicography), Felix K. Ameka (semantics, cognitive linguistics), Alan Stewart Duthie (semantics, phonetics), Hounkpati B. Capo (phonology, phonetics), Enoch Aboh (syntax), and Chris Collins (syntax).
Now, following your idiot logic, you serbs are the same people with these Ewe. Say hello to your compatriots:
https://freewesttogolandwordpress.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/cdd58e1676d877cbae4ca471afca1745-ghana-festivals.jpg

For one thing i am sure. You are really a piece of mut. I mean, mut in Albanian not in other 20 languages.

[Varda]

..

[Varda]

All l basically said some have linked aspects of Albanian-Shqip to South East Asian, but this nasalised consonants found in your language proves your partial ancestry to the Berber tribes of Africa. Berbers and many other languages of Africa are known for this phenomenon of nasalised consonants, okay. Why did l mention Tuglemusk? Berber and Albanian are 100% the same!

Are you Goranac?

[Novi Pazar]

Laku, l realise your a little touchy, l know l’m talking to a young man here, it’s okay, I’m expecting immature replies.

NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I’M SAYING? ALL I’M SAYING IS YOUR PEOPLE ‘SHQIPTARS’ HAVE MULTIPLE ORIGINS INCLUDING BERBERS AND NASALISED CONSONANTS ARE KNOWN IN YOUR LANGUAGE LIKE ‘NGA’ WHERE N IS EMPHASISED I CAN PROVIDE MORE OF THESE WITH THE LETTER M. YES SOME HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT ALB-SHQIP HAVING AN AFFINITY TO SOUTH EAST ASIAN, JUST LIKE GERMANIC AND THEIR NG, OKAY. REGARDING SHQIP, THIS IS NOT THE CASE, ITS COINCIDENCE, GET IT?

Serbian Ga, well, this is coincidence, it’s not like Serbs WEAR TUGLEMUSKS, GET IT?

[Novi Pazar]

Are you Goranac?

100% Kosovan Serb (Gnjilane, Mitrovica and Leposavic).

[Hulu]

Laku, l realise your a little touchy, l know l’m talking to a young man here, it’s okay, I’m expecting immature replies.

NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I’M SAYING? ALL I’M SAYING IS YOUR PEOPLE ‘SHQIPTARS’ HAVE MULTIPLE ORIGINS INCLUDING BERBERS AND NASALISED CONSONANTS ARE KNOWN IN YOUR LANGUAGE LIKE ‘NGA’ WHERE N IS EMPHASISED I CAN PROVIDE MORE OF THESE WITH THE LETTER M. YES SOME HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT ALB-SHQIP HAVING AN AFFINITY TO SOUTH EAST ASIAN, JUST LIKE GERMANIC AND THEIR NG, OKAY. REGARDING SHQIP, THIS IS NOT THE CASE, ITS COINCIDENCE, GET IT?

Serbian Ga, well, this is coincidence, it’s not like Serbs WEAR TUGLEMUSKS, GET IT?

Maybe you're too old to discuss this?? Speak with CommonSense, a serbian member here and he can explain you genetics. You are just sounding ridiculous. Not doing Serbs a favor.

[Laku]

Laku, l realise your a little touchy, l know l’m talking to a young man here, it’s okay, I’m expecting immature replies.

NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I’M SAYING? ALL I’M SAYING IS YOUR PEOPLE ‘SHQIPTARS’ HAVE MULTIPLE ORIGINS INCLUDING BERBERS AND NASALISED CONSONANTS ARE KNOWN IN YOUR LANGUAGE LIKE ‘NGA’ WHERE N IS EMPHASISED I CAN PROVIDE MORE OF THESE WITH THE LETTER M. YES SOME HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT ALB-SHQIP HAVING AN AFFINITY TO SOUTH EAST ASIAN, JUST LIKE GERMANIC AND THEIR NG, OKAY. REGARDING SHQIP, THIS IS NOT THE CASE, ITS COINCIDENCE, GET IT?

Serbian Ga, well, this is coincidence, it’s not like Serbs WEAR TUGLEMUSKS, GET IT?

Only a mentally ill person can make such connections. Albanians are Berbers because in Albanian language and in Irish language there is the word nga!!!!!
Coincidence?????? Don't be so sure. You are "lucky" because I am not an idiot like you and I don't want to waste my time with these retard theories.
Btw, tell us about your personal experiences with this Serb tradition of snohačenje, tell us how your father "helped" you.

[Laku]

100% Kosovan Serb (Gnjilane, Mitrovica and Leposavic).

Ah, so you are a torbesh, a bulgarec or poture, a turkified bulgar. lol Probably your are Kurds brought to Balkans by the Ottomans.
Now I can understand why you are so much involved in these idiot theories. lol

[Novi Pazar]

The PRENASALISED CONSONANTS are directly due to proto-shqiptarisht (Berber branch) when they settled inside Serbia 1043AD as part of the Maniaketes tribe. Proto-Shqiptarisht also includes Norman, Frank, Anglo-Saxon, Latin, Serbian, Arab (Siculo-Arabic), Armenian, Varangian, Turk and Greek. The merger/blending of these Proto groups forming Shqiptarisht eventually occurring after 150yrs giving birth to this language isolate.

Now going back to Prenasalised Consonants, as l have mentioned before, the NGA word, others include NDE, NGROF, NDER, NDRYSHIM, MBI, MBREH, MPRET, MBRETEROJ, MBRETERESHE, MBRETERI etc…

What is really fascinating, in Africa, the prenasalised Consonant word NGA in Shqiptarisht, is a highly popular name of the continent. Awhile ago when l had read Edith Durham’s book of ‘High Albania’ in chapter 5 page 76. Edith Durham mentions an eye opening tribal name of the lower Pulati of ‘MGULA’, this Mgula is also a highly popular name of Africa, again, this cannot occur without Berber influence!

An Albanian name like NDERIM comes to my mind.

If readers are interested l can make a list of Shqiptar words that are cognant to Berber of North Africa, it’s striking!

[Novi Pazar]

Maybe you're too old to discuss this?? Speak with CommonSense, a serbian member here and he can explain you genetics. You are just sounding ridiculous. Not doing Serbs a favor.

Genetics, Albanians do have recent Y-DNA of E branch from North Africa, I’m not talking about the old EV13 that has been apart of Serbs and Greeks here in Helm (Balkans) for thousands of years.

[Laku]

The PRENASALISED CONSONANTS are directly due to proto-shqiptarisht (Berber branch) when they settled inside Serbia 1043AD as part of the Maniaketes tribe. Proto-Shqiptarisht also includes Norman, Frank, Anglo-Saxon, Latin, Serbian, Arab (Siculo-Arabic), Armenian, Varangian, Turk and Greek. The merger/blending of these Proto groups forming Shqiptarisht eventually occurring after 150yrs giving birth to this language isolate.

Now going back to Prenasalised Consonants, as l have mentioned before, the NGA word, others include NDE, NGROF, NDER, NDRYSHIM, MBI, MBREH, MPRET, MBRETEROJ, MBRETERESHE, MBRETERI etc…

What is really fascinating, in Africa, the prenasalised Consonant word NGA in Shqiptarisht, is a highly popular name of the continent. Awhile ago when l had read Edith Durham’s book of ‘High Albania’ in chapter 5 page 76. Edith Durham mentions an eye opening tribal name of the lower Pulati of ‘MGULA’, this Mgula is also a highly popular name of Africa, again, this cannot occur without Berber influence!

An Albanian name like NDERIM comes to my mind.

If readers are interested l can make a list of Shqiptar words that are cognant to Berber of North Africa, it’s striking!

Listen bulgarec. Nderim is to honor, to respect. The root is nder, in English honor.
Albanian
Alternative forms

nêr (Gheg)

Etymology

From Proto-Albanian *ən-darsa, from Proto-Indo-European *dʰers- (“to dare”), an *-s- extension of *dʰer- (“to hold, support”). Cognate with Ancient Greek θαρσεῖν (tharseîn, “to dare”), Sanskrit धृष् (dhṛṣ, “be bold”), Lithuanian drąsa (“courage”), English dare.
Noun

nder m (indefinite plural nderë, definite singular nderi, definite plural nderët)

honour
favour

Derived terms

nderoj
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nder

[Laku]

The PRENASALISED CONSONANTS are directly due to proto-shqiptarisht (Berber branch) when they settled inside Serbia 1043AD as part of the Maniaketes tribe. Proto-Shqiptarisht also includes Norman, Frank, Anglo-Saxon, Latin, Serbian, Arab (Siculo-Arabic), Armenian, Varangian, Turk and Greek. The merger/blending of these Proto groups forming Shqiptarisht eventually occurring after 150yrs giving birth to this language isolate.

Now going back to Prenasalised Consonants, as l have mentioned before, the NGA word, others include NDE, NGROF, NDER, NDRYSHIM, MBI, MBREH, MPRET, MBRETEROJ, MBRETERESHE, MBRETERI etc…

What is really fascinating, in Africa, the prenasalised Consonant word NGA in Shqiptarisht, is a highly popular name of the continent. Awhile ago when l had read Edith Durham’s book of ‘High Albania’ in chapter 5 page 76. Edith Durham mentions an eye opening tribal name of the lower Pulati of ‘MGULA’, this Mgula is also a highly popular name of Africa, again, this cannot occur without Berber influence!

An Albanian name like NDERIM comes to my mind.

If readers are interested l can make a list of Shqiptar words that are cognant to Berber of North Africa, it’s striking!
Ngroh and not ngrof:
Etymology

From Proto-Albanian *engrāja, from Proto-Indo-European *gʷʰer- (“warm, hot”). Cognate to Old Church Slavonic грѣти (grěti, “to warm”). The form may have entered the class of Albanian inchoatives in -sk-. The anlaut points to a formation with the prefix *en-.[1][2]
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ngroh
mbi:
Albanian
Alternative forms

mby, my, mi (Gheg)

Etymology
From Proto-Albanian *(V)(m)pi, perhaps from a compound of Proto-Indo-European *h₂en-h₁pi (“up, on, upon, (on-to, un-to)”), from *h₂én (“on”) + *h₁(é)pi, *h₁ópi (“by, near, at”); otherwise just the latter component and phonetically influenced by mbë. Compare Ancient Greek ἐπί (epí, “on, to, towards”), Sanskrit अपि (ápi), Avestan ��������‎ (aipi), Old Persian [script needed] (apiy), Old Armenian եւ (ew), Latin ob, and Old English bī (English by).
Preposition

mbi (+accusative)

on, onto, upon

Synonyms: në, përmbi

hipi mbi çati

climbed on the roof

doli mbi ujë

(came out) appeared on the water's surface

over, above

Synonym: sipër

dy gradë mbi zero

two degrees above zero

mbi çati

above the roof

mbi ujë

above the water('s surface)

Derived terms

përmbi
mitan

Antonyms

nën

Further reading

[1] preposition "mbi" (engl.: above, on, onto, over, etc.) • "Fjalor Shqip" (Albanian Dictionary)
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mbi
mbreh:
Albanian
Alternative forms

mbrej, mbrêj

Etymology

From *ënbrenj, from Proto-Albanian *en-breunja, from *breuna (“belt, girdle”) (modern brez). More at brez.
Verb

mbreh (first-person singular past tense mbreha, participle mbrehur)

I harness, yoke (draft animals)

Related terms

brez
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mbreh
mbret:
Albanian
Alternative forms

mret (Gheg) [mɾɛt][1]
μπρέτ (mbrét) (Arvanitic) [mbɾɛt][2]

Etymology

From Vulgar Latin *imperātus (compare Romanian împărat, Aromanian ampirat), from Latin imperātor.[3]
Pronunciation

IPA(key): [mbɾɛt]

Noun

mbret m (indefinite plural mbretër, definite singular mbreti, definite plural mbretërit)

king (monarch or chess piece)

Synonym: regj

(card games) king in a pack of playing cards

Synonyms: kerr, krajl, rig

Declension
declension of mbret
Derived terms

mbretëri
mbretëreshë
mbretërim
mbretëroj
mbretëror, mbretërore
mpret

References

^ Fialuur i voghel Sccyp e ltinisct (Small Dictionary of Albanian and Latin), page 83, by P. Jak Junkut, 1895, Sckoder
^ Λεξικόν της Ρωμαϊκοις και Αρβανητηκής Απλής (Lexicon of the simple Romaic and Arbanitic language), page 204, by Markos Botsaris
^ Orel, Vladimir (1998), “mbret”, in Albanian Etymological Dictionary, Leiden, Boston, Cologne: Brill, →ISBN, page 252
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mbret

This is what the scholars say.

[Laku]

Genetics, Albanians do have recent Y-DNA of E branch from North Africa, I’m not talking about the old EV13 that has been apart of Serbs and Greeks here in Helm (Balkans) for thousands of years.

Now bulgarec, let have a look to this your tradition of Lapot, because this can help us to learn more about the origine of the serbs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lapot
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senicide

Senicide, or geronticide, is the killing of the elderly, or their abandonment to death.

By culture

Scythians

Aelian writes: The Derbiccae (a tribe, apparently of Scythian origin, settled in Margiana, on the left bank of the Oxus) kill those who are seventy years of age. They sacrifice the men and strangle the women.[15]

Herodotus tells us about the Massagetae that: "Though they fix no certain term to life, yet when a man is very old all his family meet together and kill him, with beasts of the flock besides, then boil the flesh and feast on it. This is held to be the happiest death; when a man dies of an illness, they do not eat him, but bury him in the earth, and lament that he did not live to be killed."[16]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massagetae

The Massagetae, or Massageteans,[1] (Greek: Μασσαγέται (Massagétai), Iranian: *Masyaka-tā)[2][3] were an ancient Eastern Iranian nomadic tribal confederation,[4][5][6][7] who inhabited the steppes of Central Asia, north-east of the Caspian Sea in modern Turkmenistan, western Uzbekistan, and southern Kazakhstan. They belonged to the Saka people,[2][3] and were part of the wider Scythian cultures,[8]

According to Greek and Roman scholars, the Massagetae were neighboured by the Aspasioi (possibly the Aśvaka) to the north, the Scythians and the Dahae to the west, and the Issedones (possibly the Wusun) to the east. Sogdia lay to the south.[9]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_hypotheses_of_the_Serbs

Early historical records of the Serb name
Various historical authors mentioned names of Serbs (Serbian: Srbi / Срби) and Sorbs (Upper Sorbian: Serbja; Lower Sorbian: Serby) in different variants: as Cervetiis (Servetiis), gentis (S)urbiorum, Suurbi, Sorabi, Soraborum, Sorabos, Surpe, Sorabici, Sorabiet, Sarbin, Swrbjn, Servians, Sorbi, Sirbia, Sribia, Zirbia, Zribia, Suurbelant, Surbia, Serbulia / Sorbulia among others.[1][2][3] These authors used these names to refer to Serbs and Sorbs in areas where their historical (or current) presence was/is not disputed (notably in the Balkans and Lusatia), but there are also sources that mention the same or similar names in other parts of the World (most notably in the Asiatic Sarmatia in the Caucasus). Attempts of various researchers to connect these names with modern Serbs produced various theories about the origin of the Serb people.

Early historical mentions of an alleged "Serb" ethnonym in the Caucasus

Pliny the Younger in his work Plinii Caecilii Secundi Historia naturalis from the first century AD (69-75) mentioned people named Serboi, who lived near the Cimmerians, presumably on the Black Sea and the Sea of Azov.[4]
In the 2nd century (around 175 AD), the Egyptian Greek scientist Claudius Ptolemy mentioned in his Geography people named Serboi or Sirboi, who presumably lived behind the Caucasus, in the hinterland of the Caspian Sea.[4]

Early historical mentions of other Serb-sounding names that some researchers are trying to connect with the Serb people

In the same book where he mentioned people named Serboi, Claudius Ptolemy also mentioned city named Serbinum in Pannonia.[4]
Ancient geographer Strabo mentioned that river Xanthos in Lycia was formerly named Sirbis.[5]
Herodotus mentions lake named Serbonis in Egypt.[citation needed] This lake was also mentioned as Sirbonis by Strabo.[6]
In the 10th century, Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos (912-959) mentioned in his book De Ceremoniis, apart from the Slavic Croats and Serbs, there were two tribes named Krevatades (Krevatas) and Sarban (Sarbani), which some researches identified as Croats and Serbs.[7][8] These tribes were located in the Caucasus near the river Terek, between Alania and Tsanaria.[9][10] The Sarban tribe in the Caucasus in the 10th century was also recorded by an Arab geographer.[11]
http://www.ikc-berlin.de/ubs/tekstovi/text5.html

Ko su zapavo bili ti Srbi i Hrvati ?


Znanstvenici odano znaju da rijec Hrvat nije slavenska. Smatra se da je to ista rijec kao i iransko ime choroatos, pronadjeno na natpisima nadgrobnih spomenika nedaleko od grckog grada Tanaisa u donjem toku rijeke Dona, na jugu Rusije.

Cielo vrijeme to podrucje bilo je naseljeno raznim plemenima, medju kojima su bili i Slaveni i Sarmati; ovi potonji bijahu iranski nomadi koji su u II. st. prije Krista zaobisli sa zapadne strane, sjevernu strranu Kavkaza. Sarmati su zadobili politicku prevlast nad ostalim plemenima, pa su neka od slavenskih plemena na taj nacin po svoj prilici dobila vladarsku elitu koja je govorila iranski. (21. Rostovtseff: Iranians and Greeks, str. 135-146).

Jedna teorija povezuje rijec Hrvat i Choroatos s rjecju hu-urvata, koja je znacila "prijatelj" na jeziku Alana (koji su u to vrijeme bili dio saramatskog skupa iranskih plemena) (22. Kaufluss, Die Slawen, str.6-9).

Jedna druga teorija nagadja da se korijen imena "Srbin", serv, pretvorio u iranskome u charv, sto je skupa sa sufiksom at dalo Choroatos i Hrvat. (23. Gimbutas, Slavs, str.60).

Bjelodano je jasno da su Srbi i Hrvati imali slicnu i povezanu povijest od najstarijih vremena: Ptolomej, koji je pisao u II.st. nase ere, takodjer spominje Serboi medju seramitskim plemenima sjeverno od Kavkaza. Vecina znanstvenika vjeruje da su Srbi i Hrvati bili Slavenska plemena s iranskom vladajucom kastom, ili da su prvobitno bili iranska plemena koja su stekla slavenske podanike. (24. Fine, Early OMedieval Balkans, str.56).

Negdje na pocetku VII.st. oba su plemena osnovala svoja kraljevstva u srednjoj Evropi:"Bijelu Hrvatsku", koja je obuhvatala dio danasnje juzne Poljske, i "Bijelu Srbiju", u danasnjoj Ceskoj. Odatle su se i jedni i drugi doselili na zapad Balkana.
translation with google:

Who exactly were these Serbs and Croats?


Scholars faithfully know that the word Croat is not Slavic. It is believed to be the same word as the Iranian name choroatos, found on inscriptions on tombstones not far from the Greek city of Tanais in the lower reaches of the Don River, in southern Russia.

All this time the area was inhabited by various tribes, among whom were the Slavs and the Sarmatians; the latter were Iranian nomads who in II. st. BC bypassed the western side, the northern side of the Caucasus. The Sarmatians gained political supremacy over other tribes, and some of the Slavic tribes probably gained an Iranian-speaking ruling elite. (21. Rostovtseff: Iranians and Greeks, pp. 135-146).

One theory connects the word Croat and Choroatos with the word hu-urvata, which meant "friend" in the Alan language (who were part of the Saramatic group of Iranian tribes at the time) (22. Kaufluss, Die Slawen, pp. 6-9).

Another theory suggests that the root of the name "Serb", serv, turned from Iranian to charv, which together with the suffix at dalo Choroatos and Croat. (23. Gimbutas, Slavs, p. 60).

It is clear that Serbs and Croats have had a similar and connected history from the earliest times: Ptolemy, who wrote in the 2nd century. of our era, also mentions Serboi among the Seramite tribes north of the Caucasus. Most scholars believe that Serbs and Croats were Slavic tribes with an Iranian ruling caste, or that they were originally Iranian tribes who acquired Slavic subjects. (24. Fine, Early OMedieval Balkans, p.56).

Somewhere at the beginning of the VII century. both tribes founded their kingdoms in Central Europe: "White Croatia", which included part of today's southern Poland, and "White Serbia", in today's Czech Republic. From there, they both moved to the western Balkans.

Now it`s time to dig about this strange serb tradition of the father who fuk the daughter in law. I am sure that investigating this tradition may shed some light about the asiatic origine of the serbs. Always quoting scholars. OK, bulgarec?

[Laku]

double post.

[CommonSense]

Maybe you're too old to discuss this?? Speak with CommonSense, a serbian member here and he can explain you genetics. You are just sounding ridiculous. Not doing Serbs a favor.

It's a waste of time to argue with supporters of Jovan I Deretić and his school of "history". All of us here should simply be thankful there aren't more members like him.

[Novi Pazar]

It's a waste of time to argue with supporters of Jovan I Deretić and his school of "history". All of us here should simply be thankful there aren't more members like him.

I’m a supporter of Milos Milojevic, long before Jovan Deretic. So you think the school of the Vatican or even Nordic ones we should be following? Anything outside the defined ‘parameters’ set by these wacky schools is taboo?

You need to understand CommonSense before jumping-the-gun, what has been put forth wasn’t Jovan Deretic’s school of ‘history’ which you have a disgust for (your choice), but is simple fact from easy to find information ‘on-line’. In this topic, a poster from pages back said Shqiptarisht is structurally like ENGLISH? Why is that? Could it be from their Illyrian ancestry from wacky Austro-Hungarian/German/Catholic-Vatican Nordic School of thought or some COMMONSENSE (your user name) that this is DUE TO ONE OF THEIR MANY BRANCHES OF ANCESTRY MAKING UP TODAY’S ALBANIANS LIKE NORMANS (ANGLO-SAXONS)?

[Novi Pazar]

Laku, your not getting it, please learn about prenasalised consonants. If l continue here, as typically l have experienced in the past, you will randomly post deflections about something and if it were a teenager it will be some form of sexual innuendo.

Thank you for your time, good luck in learning about pre-nasalised consonants.

[Laku]

Laku, your not getting it, please learn about prenasalised consonants. If l continue here, as typically l have experienced in the past, you will randomly post deflections about something and if it were a teenager it will be some form of sexual innuendo.

Thank you for your time, good luck in learning about pre-nasalised consonants.

You want to go? Nooooo! Seriously???
We should learn about pre-nasalised consonants? And what about nasalised consonants? Read your words:

Yes there are unique traditions for a people and Albanians are no different with their brotherhood unions!

Anyway, can you tell us here why Shqiptarisht have these nasalised consonants, the words M’broj or N’ga (some have made this connection to Vietnam).

The Tagelmust?????
I asked you:

I want to repeat again my question. Who are these people who have made this connection between Albanian and Vietnamese language? Could you tell us a single name?


Pain in the butt? :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
And this was your answer:

^ it seriously doesn’t worry me because l know the truth.

Anyway check this out:

https://www.wordsense.eu/nga/

From your link:

nga (Albanian)
Pronunciation

IPA: ɳ(g)a

Alternative forms

ka (Gheg)

Preposition

at, from, to
Jo, unë nuk jam nga Shqipëria.
No, I am not from Albania.

nga (Vietnamese)
Origin & history
Sino-Vietnamese word from 娥 ("moon")
Noun
nga

(archaic, literary) Moon


So, in Albanian Lnaguage the word nga is translated in English from. Meanwhile in Vietnamese Language the word nga is translated in English moon. But you insist that this is enough to prove that there is a connection between Albanian and Vietanemese languages!!!! But it doesn't end here. Your stupidity does not have limits:

All l basically said some have linked aspects of Albanian-Shqip to South East Asian, but this nasalised consonants found in your language proves your partial ancestry to the Berber tribes of Africa. Berbers and many other languages of Africa are known for this phenomenon of nasalised consonants, okay. Why did l mention Tuglemusk? Berber and Albanian are 100% the same!
You are the biggest idiot that i have ever meet in a forum. Number ONE.
Now, people here are waiting from you to talk about your filthy and asiatic traditions. We are curious to know how following these serbian tradition you have raped your grandmother or how your uncles abused sexually with you. Or how your first children in case you are married is your brother/sister but ufficially is your children. Come on man, very funny your asiatic traditions. Did you have killed your father? You retard bulgarec poturrexhi. lol

[Novi Pazar]

^ your still not understanding, that is okay, just do some little research on prenasalised consonants and it will eventually, click! Good luck buddy.

[Laku]

^ your still not understanding, that is okay, just do some little research on prenasalised consonants and it will eventually, click! Good luck buddy.

You need a doctor.

[Novi Pazar]

^ just do your research and all will be fine.

[Baki]

Those words common with Bulgarian: Some of them are loan words from Bulgarian which were acquired during the Bulgarian Empire. I'm not gonna bother replying to the rest which is mostly composed of false claims.

[Baki]

I wasn't talking about the content in the video btw. I was talking about that Bulgarian chick.

[Wizz]

Southern Albania was inhabited by Illyrians too actually https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimale

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_settlements_in_Illyria

[Wizz]

Took this from Kosovo: A Short History



It was argued in Chapter 2 that Kosovo and its surrounding upland areas may have been the crucible in which the Vlach and Romanian peoples were originally formed. Nomadic or semi-nomadic Vlachs spread southwards into northern Greece from the tenth century onwards; others stayed longer in contact with Albanian-speakers and spread out northwards and eastwrds, crossing the Danube into Romania in the twelfth century. Many Vlachs remained, however, in the area of Kosovo, Montenegro and Hercegovina.



There is more of course such as mention of Islamised Vlachs in Kosovo, Albanised Vlachs in Albania, Slavicized Vlachs etc. Talks also about other minorities in these areas like Jews, Gypsies, etc which very interesting.

[Wizz]

New Illyrian samples from Croatia and some from Slovenia all came out J2b-L238. E-V13 was not found, but it was found in Hungary, and what I said about Danubian connecti
Albanian pre-Slavic part is mix of western and eastern Balkan tribes, far from being simply Illyrian.
....



In the archaeological record, the Albanoi and Albanopolis have been directly attested on two funeral inscriptions. The toponym Albanopolis has been found on a funeral inscription in Gorno Sonje, near the city of Skopje (ancient Scupi), present-day North Macedonia.[14] It was excavated in 1931 by Nikola Vulić and its text was curated and published in 1982 by Borka Dragojević-Josifovska. The inscription in Latin reads "POSIS MESTYLU F FL[AVIA] DELVS MVCATI F[ILIA] DOM[O] ALBANOP[OLI] IPSA DELVS" ("Posis Mestylu, son of Flavia Delus, daughter of Mucat, who comes from Albanopolis"). [I]It dates to the end of the 1st century CE and the beginning of the 2nd century CE. Dragojević-Josifovska added two lines to the existing reading: VIVA P(OSUIT) SIBI/ ET VIRO SUO. Delus Mucati is an Illyrian name and his home region was Albanopolis (domo Albanopoli). Dragojević-Josifovska proposed that like others he had settled in Macedonia from southern Illyria.[15]

[Wizz]

An Ustashe who claims Albanians in Kosovo are immigrants from Albania that came after 1690 is going to teach us about Albanian origin :lol:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toma_Raspasani
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pjetër_Bogdani



Kosovo Albanian Roman Catholic Bishop and philosopher Pjetër Bogdani returned to the Balkans in March 1686 and spent the next years promoting resistance to the armies of the Ottoman Empire, in particular in his native Kosovo. He and his vicar Toma Raspasani played a leading role in the pro-Austrian movement in Kosovo during the Great Turkish War.[9] He contributed a force of 6,000 Albanian soldiers to the Austrian army which had arrived in Pristina and accompanied it to capture Prizren. There, however, he and much of his army were met by another equally formidable adversary, the plague. Bogdani returned to Pristina but succumbed to the disease there in 6 December 1689.[10] His nephew, Gjergj Bogdani, reported in 1698 that his uncle's remains were later exhumed by Turkish and Tatar soldiers and fed to the dogs in the middle of the square in Pristina.



Always lived Albanians there and in Macedonia. In fact, large part of the demographic growth in Western Kosovo seems to of largely been from a population that was already there from 1448 - 1689.

Same as in Macedonia. Tribal migrations mainly sped up later.


Many Vlachs were assimilated in Albania too. And all the Illyrian people over there.

[Wizz]

All origins become mysterious if we search far enough into the past. And almost all peoples, when we look at their earliest origins, turn out to have come from somewhere else. Before embarking on these origin quests, it is good to keep a few qualifying principles firmly in mind. First, it can never be said too often that questions of chronological priority in ancient history - who got there first - are simply irrelevant to deciding the rights and wrongs of any present-day political situation.

Secondly, accounts of the earlier movements of peoples or tribes give a very misleading impression when they treat them as if they were unitary items, with unchanging identities, being transferred from place to place in a game of ethno-historical pass-the-parcel. In many cases (such as the migrations of the Franks in early western Europe) it is the movement of a people into a new territory or society that gives it an identity it did not previously have. Identities continue to develop over time: 'Serb' was a tribal label in the sixth century but not in the sixteenth, so that to treat 'the Serbs' as an unchanging category is as foolish as trying to identify Jutes and Angles among the subjects of Queen Elizabeth I.

And thirdly, we should never forget that all individual ancestries are mixed -especially in this part of Europe. When a Serb today reads about the arrival of the early Serbs, he may not be wrong to suppose that he is reading about his ancestors; but he cannot be right to imagine that all his ancestors were in that population. The equivalent is true for the Albanians, and indeed for every other ethnic group in the Balkans.

While most details about the movement of the early Slavs into the Balkans are unclear, the basic facts are known. A large tribal population of Slavs - among whom the Serbs and the Croats were two particular tribes, or tribal groupings - occupied parts of central Europe, north of the Danube, in the fifth and sixth centuries ad. The Serbs had their power-base in the area of the Czech lands and Saxony, and the Croats in Bavaria, Slovakia and southern Poland. This central European location was not the earliest known home of the Serbs; most of the evidence points to an earlier migration from the north and north-eastern side of the Black Sea. At that earlier period the Serbs and Croats seem to have lived together with more warlike Iranian tribes, and their tribal names may derive from Iranian ruling elites: Ptolemy, writing in the second century ad, located the 'Serboi' among the Sarmatians (an Iranian grouping) on the northern side of the Caucasus. Little is known about the Slavs' way of life in these earlier periods. The first descriptions we have of them are by Byzantine writers, who portray them as a wild people, more pastoral than agricultural, with many chiefs but no supreme leader. [1]

For a tribal population with a fairly low level of material culture, reaching the line of the Danube and looking south was the equivalent of a hungry man pressing his face against the window of a grocery. The Balkans, fully restored to Byzantine control under the energetic Emperor Justinian (527-65), contained many flourishing towns and cities, supported by productive agriculture and active trading routes. The Slavs were not the first to cross the Danube in search of better things. Germanic Goths had done so (with Byzantine permission, at first) in the fourth century, and had gone raiding as far as Greece and the Albanian coast thereafter; Huns, under Attila, had attacked in the 440s, and Bulgars (a Turkic tribe) had started raiding at the end of that century. [2] But none of these earlier invaders left any imprint on the Balkans comparable to that of the Slavs. Indeed, by the time that the Turkic-speaking Bulgars came to settle permanently in the Balkans in the seventh century, the Slav element was already so well established there that the conquering Bulgars were eventually to lose their own language and be absorbed by their Slav-speaking subjects. [3]

The first major Slav raids took place in the middle of Justinian's reign. In 547 and 548 they invaded the territory of modern Kosovo, and then (probably via Macedonia and the Via Egnatia across central Albania) got as far as Durres on the northern Albanian coast. [4] More substantial invasions took place in the 580s, bringing Slavs deep into Greece. Historians used to think that it was only these later invasions that involved any permanent settlement; but there is evidence of Slav place-names in the Balkans - particularly along the river Morava - by the 550s, which suggests a more continuous process of infiltration. [5] One factor which may have turned the southward movement of Slavs from a trickle to a flood was the arrival, in the north-western part of the Balkans, of an especially warlike Turkic tribe, the Avars, who subjugated or coopted some Slavic tribes but drove many others away. By the early seventh century the Avar armies were raiding as far as the walls of Constantinople, and threatening the very existence of the Byzantine Empire.

It was at this point, in the 610s or 620s, that the Emperor of the day (according to a detailed but somewhat confused account by a later Emperor-cum-historian, Constantine Porphyrogenitus) invited the Croats to come down from central Europe and deal with the Avar threat. [6] This they did, bringing with them their neighbours, the Serbs. Both populations then settled in the territories abandoned by the Avars: the Croats in modern Croatia and western Bosnia, and the Serbs in the Rascia area on the north-western side of Kosovo, and in the region of modern Montenegro. In some of these areas they supervened on an already existing Slav population, which, as a result, must gradually have taken on a 'Croat' or 'Serb' identity. The Serbs did not have anything like a state at this stage, but they developed several small tribal territories, each called a zupa and ruled by a tribal chief known as the zupan. [7]

By the mid-seventh century, Serbs (or Serb-led Slavs) were penetrating from the coastal lands of Montenegro into northern Albania. Major ports and towns such as Durres and Shkodra held out against them, but much of the countryside was Slavicized, and some Slav settlers moved up the valleys into the Malesi. By the ninth century, Slav-speaking people were an important element of the population in much of northern Albania, excluding the towns and the higher mountainous areas (especially the mountains in the eastern part of the Malesi, towards Kosovo). [8] Slav-speaking people lived in the lowlands of this area, gradually becoming a major component of the urban population too, until the end of the Middle Ages. [9]

What had happened to the local populations of the western and central Balkans during and after the Slav invasions? Something is known about the urban inhabitants, but much less about the people in the countryside. Despite the apocalyptic tone of early Byzantine writers, who give the impression that all civilization came to an end here in about 600, there is good evidence that the main cities survived (or were revived), just as they had done after earlier sackings. Refugees from central Balkan towns such as Nis and Sofia fled to the safety of Salonica at first, but many must have gone back home later. [10] The main towns on the Dalmatian and northern Albanian coastline, too, retained their Latin-speaking populations and stayed under Byzantine rule. (For naval and commercial reasons, Durres was the most important Byzantine possession on the entire Adriatic coast of the Balkans.) [11] But outside the major cities there are signs of decline and contraction; typical of the seventh to ninth centuries are the remains of small townships based on hill-forts, such as the one at Koman in the mountains of north-central Albania, where a Christian and probably Romanized (Latin-speaking) population must have led a rather limited existence. [12]

As for the rural population, which was also mainly Latin-speaking in most of the territory of Yugoslavia and north-western Bulgaria, it is assumed that large numbers of people were driven southwards by the Avars, Croats and Serbs. Some evidence from place-names suggests a flow of such refugees down the Dalmatian coast into northern Albania; and a folk tradition set down by a later Byzantine writer referred to a large movement of native people southwards and eastwards away from the area of the Danube and the Sava - that is, from northern Bulgaria, northern Serbia and Croatia. [13] No doubt Latin-speaking peasants and farmers continued to live in many of these areas, especially where they were in contact with a large town or city. But sooner or later the majority of them were Slavicized, and the towns in the interior of the Balkans filled up with Slav-speakers too.

Only the remnants of a Latin-speaking population survived in parts of the central and west-central Balkans; when it re-emerges into the historical record in the tenth and eleventh centuries, we find its members leading a semi-nomadic life as shepherds, horse-breeders and travelling muleteers. These were the Vlachs, who can still be seen tending their flocks in the mountains of northern Greece, Macedonia and Albania today. [14] The name 'Vlach' was a word used by the Slavs for those they encountered who spoke a strange, usually Latinate, language; the Vlachs' own name for themselves is 'Aromanians' (Aromani). As this name suggests, the Vlachs are closely linked to the Romanians: their two languages (which, with a little practice, are mutually intelligible) diverged only in the ninth or tenth century. [15] While Romanian historians have tried to argue that the Romanian-speakers have always lived in the territory of Romania (originating, it is claimed, from Romanized Dacian tribes and/or Roman legionaries), there is compelling evidence to show that the Romanian-speakers were originally part of the same population as the Vlachs, whose language and way of life were developed somewhere to the south of the Danube. Only in the twelfth century did the early Romanian-speakers move northwards into Romanian territory. [16]

Finally, before turning to the most mysterious problem of all - the origin of the Albanians - it is worth looking once more at the pattern of settlement in the Kosovo area during the early Slav centuries. Kosovo did not fall within the Serb territory of Rascia, which was further to the north-west: the Serbian expansion into Kosovo began in earnest only in the late twelfth century. About the other early Slav settlers in this part of the Balkans we have much less information. Byzantine sources just referred generally to 'Sklaviniai', Slav territories, in the Macedonian region; in the few cases when they made more localized references they often used names derived from rivers, so that it is not clear whether these were the names of Slav tribes or just geographical labels. The 'Moravoi' or 'Moravlians', for example, who are first mentioned in the ninth century, lived somewhere near the river Morava, but that is all we know about them. Historical map-makers, who do not like leaving too many blank spaces, place these Moravlians over much of south-eastern Serbia from as early as the sixth century, with arrows showing them passing into Kosovo; real evidence for this is lacking. [17]

Obviously some Slavs did spread through all these areas sooner or later. But there is one intriguing line of argument to suggest that the Slav presence in Kosovo and the southernmost part of the Morava valley may have been quite weak in the first one or two centuries of Slav settlement. If Slavs had been evenly spread across this part of the Balkans, it would be hard to explain why such a clear linguistic division emerged between the Serbo-Croat language and the Bulgarian-Macedonian one. The scholar who first developed this argument also noted that, in the area dividing the early Serbs from the Bulgarians, many Latin place-names survived long enough to be adapted eventually into Slav ones, from Naissus (Nish), down through the Kosovo town of Lypenion (Lipljan) to Scupi (Skopje): this contrasts strongly with most of northern Serbia, Bosnia and the Dalmatian hinterland, where the old town names were completely swept aside. His conclusion was that the Latin-speaking population, far from withering away immediately, may actually have been strengthened here (and in a western strip of modern Bulgaria), its numbers swelled, no doubt, by refugees from further north. These Latin-speakers would have thus formed 'a wide border-zone between the Bulgarians and the Serbs'. [18]

Kosovo's protective ring of mountains would have been useful to them; and the Roman mountain-road from Kosovo to the Albanian coast - along which several Latin place-names also survive, such as Puka, from 'via publica' - might also have connected them with other parts of the Latin-speaking world. (The hill-top town of Koman, mentioned earlier, is only a few miles from Puka, and may well have had a Latin-speaking population too.) If this argument is correct, we might expect many of the ancestors of the Vlachs to have been present in the Kosovo region and the mountains of western Bulgaria; it may have been in these uplands that they developed their pastoral skills.

Only in the ninth century do we see the expansion of a strong Slav (or quasi-Slav) power into this region. Under a series of ambitious rulers, the Bulgarians - a Slav population which absorbed, linguistically and culturally, its ruling elite of Turkic Bulgars - pushed westwards across modern Macedonia and eastern Serbia, until by the 850s they had taken over Kosovo and were pressing on the borders of Rascia. Soon afterwards they took the western Macedonian town of Ohrid; having recently converted to Christianity, the Bulgar rulers helped to set up a bishopric in Ohrid, which thus became an important centre of Slav culture for the whole region. And at the same time the Bulgarians were pushing on into southern and central Albania, which became thoroughly settled by Bulgarian Slavs during the course of the following century. [19]

Kosovo was to remain under Bulgarian or Macedonian rulers until 1014-18, when the army of the Macedonian-based Tsar Samuel died, his empire broke up, and Byzantine power was fully re-established by a strong and decisive Emperor, Basil 'the Bulgar-killer'. For nearly two centuries after that, Kosovo would stay under Byzantine rule. [20]

One key element is missing from the picture presented so far. While the origins of the Vlachs are obscure enough, the origins of the Albanians have been the subject of a much more bewildering mass of conflicting claims and theories. The two main rival theories that have emerged identify the early Albanians as either Illyrians or Thracians: in pre-Roman and Roman times, Illyrians lived in the western half of the Balkans and Thracians in the east. Albanian historians, who like the idea that Albanians have always lived in Albania, prefer the Illyrian theory. Romanian scholars, who have to deal with the awkward fact that there are strong early links between the Albanians and the Vlachs, prefer to put them on the Thracian side of the divide (the ancient Dacians, who lived in Romania, were part of the Thracian group), and in this they are sometimes supported by Bulgarian experts. But there is really no point in going into this labyrinth of historical debate unless one is prepared to discard all national prejudices at the entrance.

The Albanians first emerge in the historical record in 1043, when Albanian troops appear fighting alongside Greeks in the army of a rebel Byzantine general. They are mentioned at Durres in 1078, and again in 1081, when they joined the Byzantine forces resisting an invasion there by the Norman adventurer Robert Guiscard. [21] (Bizarrely, a garbled list of Albanian place-names, picked up by the Normans on this expedition, was soon afterwards incorporated into the Song of Roland: one manuscript of that poem includes a reference to 'Albanie', implying that it was a place or area just north-east of Durres.) [22]

Over the next two centuries the references to Albanians gradually increase, until by 1281 we have a mention in an Italian document of a 'duca Ginius Tanuschus Albanensis', who ruled an area between Durres and Shkodra: 'Ginius' must be the Albanian 'Gjin' (John), and this 'duca Gjin' is presumed to be the founder of the famous 'Dukagjin' family. [23] By the early fourteenth century there are also signs of a long-established Albanian presence in the mountains of Montenegro, and as far north as the Ragusan hinterland. [24]

The name used in all these references is, allowing for linguistic variations, the same: 'Albanenses' or 'Arbanenses' in Latin, 'Albanoi' or 'Arbanitai' in Byzantine Greek. (The last of these, with an internal switching of consonants, gave rise to the Turkish form 'Arnavud', from which 'Arnaut' was later derived.) Nor is there any mystery about the origin of this name. In the second century Ptolemy referred to a tribe called the 'Albanoi', and located their town, 'Albanopolis', somewhere to the east of Durres. Some such place-name must have survived there, continuously if somewhat hazily, ever since; there was an area called 'Arbanon' in north-central Albania in the eleventh century, and in the early twentieth century 'Arben' was the local name for a region near Kruja (which lies just north of Tirana). [25] Linguists believe that the 'Alb-' element comes from the Indo-European word for a type of mountainous terrain, from which the word 'Alps' is also derived. (So too, coincident-ally, is the Gaelic word for Scotland, 'Albainn', which classicizing eighteenth-century Scots sometimes turned into 'Albania'.) [26]

The continuity of this name is a striking fact; but it does not amount to proof that the Albanians have lived continuously in Albania. Place-names can endure while populations literally come and go. In any case, the Albanians do not use this word to describe themselves: in their language, Albania is Shqiperia, an Albanian is a shqiptar, and the language itself is shqip. (The only Albanians to use the 'Alb-' root are the ones who emigrated to Italy in the fifteenth century, who call themselves 'Arberesh'.) [27] The origins of shqiptar, which first crops up as a personal name in late-fourteenth-century documents, are completely obscure: some think it means 'he who understands', from a verb shqipoj, while others connect it with the word for an eagle, shqipojne, which may have been the totem of an early tribe. [28]

Is there any way to bridge the gap between the 'Albanoi' of the second century and the medieval Albanians? The historical record is utterly silent: there is one apparent reference in a medieval document to 'Duchagini d'Arbania' warring against a king of Bosnia in the seventh century, but it must be discounted, as the document's chronology is completely unreliable. [29] For some scholars, the argument from silence carries a certain force of its own; it is suggested that any large-scale migration of the early Albanians into Albania would surely have been remarked on by Byzantine authors. [30] But the truth is that those authors were interested in alien tribes only when their actions impinged, militarily or politically, on the Empire. A small pastoral population, moving away from them into some remote mountain region, might never have attracted their notice.

Some Albanian archeologists have tried hard to show that the Koman hill-town culture of the seventh and eighth centuries is the essential proof of Illyrian-Albanian continuity; but material remains do not tell us what language people spoke (unless they include inscriptions, which these do not), and the main cultural affinities here seem to have been with the Latin-speaking Romano-Byzantine towns of the previous centuries. [31] And one other line of argument, which tries to find striking similarities between Albanian social practices and what classical authors tell us about the Illyrians, must also be described as inconclusive. Certainly the tribes of the ancient Illyrians, political groupings covering large areas and heavily stratified with a powerful ruling caste, were quite different from the modern Albanian clans. [32]

If there is any chance at all of solving this mystery, it lies in the study of the Albanian language. Historical linguistics is a complex science and not, in some of its activities, a very exact one. But by sifting through the evidence of vocabulary and place-names, and sorting out different layers of borrowings from other languages and cultures, linguists can often construct quite a detailed chronology, just like an archeologist examining different layers of wood-ash and broken pots. They can point out, for example, that the Albanian names for the fauna and flora of the high mountain regions are purely Albanian, while the low-altitude vocabulary borrows heavily from Slav; the words for ploughing are mainly Slav, and so are many words for weaving, masonry and milling. Much of the vocabulary of medieval government and society is also Slav-based. [33] This strongly suggests that the early Albanians led a mainly pastoral life in mountainous regions, before settling in lowland areas after the Slavs had extended their culture and rule. And the evidence of place-names shows that Albanian-Slav contacts in the northern Albanian region must have happened before 900 at the latest: a vowel-shift in the Slav language took place by the end of the ninth century, and some Albanian borrowings from Slav preserve the pre-shift form of the vowel. [34]

We have now got back to the ninth century, but that still leaves seven centuries unaccounted for. The most direct way of bridging the gap with the Roman world would be for the historical linguists to demonstrate a link between Albanian and one of the 'barbarian' Balkan languages of the region - either Illyrian or Thracian. It is clear that Albanian is indeed the only surviving representative (apart from Greek) of an ancient Balkan language: it belongs to the Indo-European family of languages, but exists in a sub-section of its own, with no immediate relatives. If either Illyrian or Thracian could be identified as its parent, this would at least set some fairly clear geographical limits to the early home of the Albanians: Illyrians lived in Albania and most of Yugoslavia, Thracians in Bulgaria and part of Macedonia, and the boundary between them ran approximately along the Morava valley and down the eastern side of Kosovo. [35] (Kosovo itself was part of the tribal land of the Dardanians, who almost certainly belonged to the Illyrian grouping.) [36]

Unfortunately, working out the relation between Albanian and Illyrian or Thracian is like trying to solve an equation with too many unknowns. We do not possess a single text in Illyrian. We have two short texts in what is presumed to be Thracian, but no one knows what they mean. The longer one, consisting of sixty-one Greek letters without any word-divisions, has been subjected to eighteen speculative and somewhat comically divergent translations: one version says 'I, Rolisteneas, son of Nereneas, eat the sacrificial meal; Tyiezypta, originally from Arazea, attached the golden objects to me', while another comes up with 'O Rolisten, I, Nerenea Tiltea, die peacefully next to you, my quietly deceased one, I who raised the children.' [37] The linguists who have offered these translations from the Thracian have at least fared better than the one who interpreted an 'Illyrian' inscription as 'Consecrated to the goddess Oethe': it was later pointed out that this inscription, if read from bottom to top, produced a perfectly normal Greek phrase, 'Lord help Anna'. [38]

Apart from inscriptions, there are a few 'glosses' (comments explaining the meanings of words) in classical authors: here the evidence is too slight to be conclusive. One Illyrian word, rhinon, glossed as 'mist', does resemble an old Albanian word for cloud, ren. A Thracian word for a blackberry, mantia, resembles the Albanian for a mulberry, man, and the Thracian for 'camomile' could perhaps be linked to the Albanian for 'sweet-tasting'; but those are the only clear resemblances, and the names of edible plants are in any case famously mobile across linguistic frontiers. [39]

Otherwise, the only evidence available consists of proper names: place-names, personal names and tribal names, preserved in Latin or Greek inscriptions and the works of ancient historians. There are several thousand such names altogether; but the difficulties of interpretation are immense. Trying to extract a language from such evidence is rather like some linguists of the distant future trying to work out the true nature of the English language on the basis of 'Edinburgh', 'Lancaster', 'Whitby', 'Grosvenor', 'Gladstone', 'Victoria' and 'Disraeli'. Place-names are often the remnants of an earlier language; personal names may reflect cultural influences (it has been observed that if future linguists knew only the names 'Carlo' and 'Lodovico', they would assume that the Italian language was a type of German); and in any case we have no reason to suppose that the ancient Balkans were any less of a linguistic hotchpotch than they have been for most of the rest of their history. [40] On balance, there are more examples of plausible links between Illyrian names and Albanian words than there are in the case of Thracian (though there are some of both, and some names were common to the two ancient languages). Most of these relate to place-names in the area of central and northern Albania, such as the river Mat (Alb.: mat, river-bank) or the town of Ulqin or Ulcinium (Alb.: ujk or ulk, wolf), or indeed the early name for the Kosovo area, 'Dardania' (Alb.: dardhe, pear). [41]

The strongest evidence, however, comes not from the meaning of the proper names (which is always open to doubt) but from their structure. Most Illyrian names are composed of a single unit; many Thracian ones are made of two units joined together. Several Thracian place-names end in -para, for example, which is thought to mean 'ford', or -diza, which is thought to mean 'fortress'. Thus in the territory of the Bessi, a well-known Thracian tribe, we have the town of Bessapara, 'ford of the Bessi'. The structure here is the same as in many European languages: thus the 'town of Peter' can be called Peterborough, Petrograd, Petersburg, Pierreville, and so on. But the crucial fact is that this structure is impossible in Albanian, which can only say 'Qytet i Pjetrit', not 'Pjeterqytet'. If para were the Albanian for 'ford', then the place-name would have to be 'Para e Besseve'; this might be reduced in time to something like 'Parabessa', but it could never become 'Bessapara'. And what is at stake here is not some superficial feature of the language, which might easily change over time, but a profound structural principle. This is one of the strongest available arguments to show that Albanian cannot have developed out of Thracian. [42]

Other linguistic arguments which have been deployed in this Illyrian versus Thracian debate are more technical. Much ink has been spilt, for example, on the question of whether Illyrian was a satem language or a centum language. This is a traditional classification of all Indo-European languages according to their underlying patterns of consonant development. (The labels are taken from the Old Iranian and Latin for 'a hundred'.) Albanian is a satem language, and Thracian is thought to have been one too. Most scholars believed that Illyrian was a satem language, until linguists analysed the surviving inscriptions in Venetic, a language of north-eastern Italy which was assumed (on the authority of ancient authors) to be related to Illyrian. This turned out to be definitely centum, and persuaded some experts that the whole Illyrian group must therefore have been centum too - in which case Albanian could not have come from Illyrian. [43] However, more recent research has shown that Venetic had nothing to do with Illyrian. [44] (Similar problems caused by another language thought to be related to Illyrian, the Messapian language of southern Italy, have also been resolved in the same way.) [45] Illyrian was probably satem after all.

And in any case, it is increasingly apparent that the whole satem/centum classification system does not correspond to the fundamental distinguishing features of the Indo-European languages: it may be the linguists' equivalent of one of those classifications of mammals by eighteenth-century biologists, which modern scientists have had to discard. [46] Another technical (and much more speculative) argument for identifying early Albanian with Thracian was put forward by the Bulgarian linguist Georgiev, who divided Thracian into two languages, one north-western, the other south-eastern, and argued on the basis of consonantal changes that Albanian must have come from the north-western one. But his arguments (at least in relation to the supposed Albanian connection) have been thoroughly dismantled by other scholars. [47]

Other linguistic arguments are more closely linked to geography. The place-names of the northern Albanian region offer a valuable linguistic testing-ground. We know what many of them were called in Roman times; it should therefore be possible to tell whether their modern Albanian form derives from a continuous Albanian tradition going back to contact with the Romans, or whether it is derived from the Slav form of the name. If the latter, then this might suggest that the Albanians entered this area only after the Slav immigration of the seventh century. The fact that Slavs developed their own forms of the urban names directly from the Latin (Skadar from Latin Scodra, for example, where the Albanian form developed as Shkoder/Shkodra) is not in itself significant; their contact in the urban areas would have been mainly with Latin-speakers anyway. But if, on the other hand, the Slav names for rivers or mountains show that they were borrowed from Albanian forms of those names, this would indicate that there were Albanian-speakers in the countryside when the Slavs first arrived.

The evidence is in fact very mixed; some of the Albanian forms (of both urban and rural names) suggest transmission via Slav, but others -including the towns of Shkodra, Drisht, Lezha, Shkup (Skopje) and perhaps Shtip (Stip, south-east of Skopje) - follow the pattern of continuous Albanian development from the Latin. [48] (One common objection to this argument, claiming that 'sc-' in Latin should have turned into 'h-', not 'shk-' in Albanian, rests on a chronological error, and can be disregarded.) [49] There are also some fairly convincing derivations of Slav names for rivers in northern Albania - particularly the Bojana (Alb.: Buena) and the Drim (Alb.: Drin) - which suggest that the Slavs must have acquired their names from the Albanian forms. [50]

Finally, one more common-sensical linguistic and geographical argument should also be mentioned: the claim, by the pioneering German Balkanologist Gustav Weigand, that the early Albanians must have lived a long way to the east of the Adriatic coast, because most of the Albanian words for fish, boats and coastal features are borrowed from other languages. [51] Sterling efforts have been made by Albanian scholars to find authentic Albanian fish-words, but the tally, though not insignificant, is still rather poor. [52] However, Weigand's argument could not be very powerful even if its basic observation were correct (as it may in fact be). A pastoral population might have lived only 50 miles inland in the Albanian mountains without having any contact with fishing or sailing; it is not necessary to push its location eastwards all the way to Thrace. [53] Of course Illyrians did once live on the coast, and would presumably have had their own maritime vocabulary.

But if Illyrian survived as Albanian, it did so only by means of physical contraction, withdrawal and isolation, which naturally would have taken place in mountain terrain. This is why the purest element of Albanian vocabulary refers to mountains, high-altitude plants and shepherding: the point is not that the proto-Albanians had never lived any other sort of life, but that the only ones who survived as Albanian-speakers did so precisely because that was the sort of isolated and independent life they led, probably for several centuries. The Illyrians who lived on the coastal plains were Romanized, like the ones on the Dalmatian coast and indeed in most areas of Yugoslavia. By the time the Slavs began arriving in the sixth century, there were only scattered pockets of speakers of the old 'barbarian' languages left anywhere in the Balkans, and all of them were in mountainous regions. [54]

Of these, the only population considered important enough to be mentioned by name in early written sources was the Thracian tribe of the Bessi, who lived in the western and southern mountains of Bulgaria. We know that their version of the Thracian language was still being spoken in the second half of the sixth century, and we also know that they had been converted to Christianity: the most striking piece of evidence refers to monks speaking 'Bessan', as well as Latin and other languages, in a monastery on Mount Sinai in the 560s. [55] Until very recently, this was treated by most scholars as just an intriguing oddity, a last lingering survival which must have been extinguished before long. However, a dazzling new piece of research and speculative reconstruction by the German scholar Gottfried Schramm has proposed that these Thracian Bessi were none other than the real ancestors of the Albanians.

According to Schramm, the Bessi must have moved out of their western Bulgarian homeland and into the northern Albanian region in the early ninth century, probably to escape the persecution of Christians by the still pagan Bulgar khans. [56] The early conversion of the Bessi to Christianity is indeed, in Schramm's view, the key to the entire question of how and why Albanian survived as a language. We know that the Bessi were converted by an enterprising bishop, Nicetas, in the late fourth century, and from the writings of a friend of Nicetas who celebrated this event we also know that he learned their language and taught them to practise their Christianity in it - in other words, that Bessan was used as a liturgical language. (The evidence of the Bessan-speaking monks supports this point.) Nicetas, whose own mother-tongue was Latin, may also have translated parts of the Bible; the obvious model - or competition - that he must have had in mind was the work of a heretical bishop, Ulfilas, who was using the Germanic Gothic language for liturgy and Bible-translation among the nearby population of Goths in northern Bulgaria. And, as comparison with other linguistic survivals (such as Armenian or Coptic) shows, nothing helps a language to survive quite so much as its use from a very early stage in a kind of national church. [57]

One thing is quite certain: the Albanians did acquire their Christianity from a Latin-speaking teacher or teachers. The Albanian language contains much Latin-derived vocabulary anyway, having obviously absorbed words from nearby Romans or Romanized barbarians from the second century bc onwards; but the Latin element is especially rich in the area of Christian belief and Christian practice. Thus we have meshe (mass), from missa; ipeshk (bishop), from episcopus; ungjill (gospel), from evangelium; mrekull (miracle), from miraculum; and a great number of other words, extending far into the vocabulary of psychology, morality and even the natural world (such as qiell, meaning heaven or sky, from caelum). [58]

Many of the words that would need to be put on such a list, in fact, are not special ecclesiastical terms, for which a non-Christian population would have no equivalent of its own; they are simple words such as 'spirit', 'sin', 'pray*, 'holy', and so on, for which most languages, even in pre-Christian times, have their own vocabulary. When other early evangelizers translated the Bible or the liturgy into Armenian, or Gothic, or Anglo-Saxon, they used local words for these things - that, indeed, is what is implied by the whole idea of translation. Why should Nicetas, translating into proto-Albanian, have simply transferred huge quantities of Latin words? Schramm notes the oddity of this in passing, and suggests unconvincingly that there must have been some special cultural reasons. [59] But the oddity is more overwhelming than he admits. For example, even the word for a flock, as used in Christian discourse, was taken from the Latin (grigje, from grex) - of all the things in the world, the one for which a shepherding population must surely have had its own word already. [60]

The solution to this puzzle is blindingly simple. These elements of Latin vocabulary have undergone exactly the same sorts of sound-changes, compressions and erosions as all the other Latin words which entered the Albanian language over several centuries; and the reason why those words entered the language was that the Albanians were in contact, over a long period, with people who spoke Latin. The existence of large quantities of such Christianity-related Latin vocabulary does not show that someone 'translated' Christian discourse into early Albanian. It shows the precise opposite - namely, that Albanians were for a long time exposed to the conduct of their religion not in translation but in the original Latin.

This can even be demonstrated grammatically. The term for 'Holy Trinity', Shendertat, bears a final 't' and an accent on the last syllable: this shows that it developed from the accusative, sanctam trinitatem, not the nominative, sancta trinitas. That is in fact the normal pattern of development in Romance languages, which gives us, for example, Spanish ciudad from dvitatem (not from civitas), or French mont from montem (not from mons). (There are many other Albanian examples too, such as grigje, mentioned above, which is really from gregem, not grex.) What this phenomenon reflects is a pattern of usage in spoken Latin: these words were heard much more often as the objects in sentences than as the subjects. If Nicetas had been coining new Albanian words out of Latin for the purposes of his translation, he would surely have taken them from the nominative form. These words entered Albanian because Albanians heard them, over and over again, in spoken liturgical Latin.

Schramm's theory fails, therefore; and in so doing it performs a signal service. Thanks to Schramm, the Thracians can now be eliminated from these enquiries. His research into Nicetas's activities does indeed show that the Bessi received their Christianity, so to speak, in translation; this must force us to conclude that the Albanians, who received theirs in the original Latin, cannot be identified with the Bessi. The language of the Bessi must eventually have perished. Since the Bessi were the only Thracian tribe known to have kept their language as late as the sixth century (and Byzantine sources are naturally more detailed on the Thracian areas, which for them were closer to home, than on the Illyrian ones), it is impossible to find any other Thracian candidates. The origins of the Albanians must be sought, therefore, on the Illyrian side of the divide - particularly in the mountains round Kosovo, in the Malesi, and in the tangle of mountains stretching north from there through Montenegro.

The Latin elements in Albanian help to confirm this location. From the fact that so much general vocabulary was absorbed into Albanian from Latin, and so little from Greek, it is clear that the proto-Albanians lived some way to the north of the Latin-Greek linguistic divide. This language frontier ran from the Adriatic coast near Lezha across the middle of Albania, then up to the line of the Sar mountains, curving southwards to take in Latin-speaking Skopje, and then running northwards roughly along the Serbian-Bulgarian border. [61] At the same time, the fact that the proto-Albanians never actually lost their language indicates that they were somewhat isolated from the main areas of Roman settlement - which included the lowlands and the major roads. One influential theory therefore places the early Albanians in the part of northern Albania which (according to archeological evidence and place-names) was the most untouched by Roman influence: the 'Mat' district north-east of Tirana and west of Debar. From there, according to this theory, the early Albanians were able to expand to fill the region bounded by the river Shkumbin, the Black Drin, the united Drin and the coast. [62]

What this theory fails to account for, however, is another key aspect of the Albanian language's connection with Latin: its intimate involvement in the development of the Vlach-Romanian language. Linguists have long been aware that Albanian and Romanian have many features in common, in matters of structure, vocabulary and idiom, and that these must have arisen in two ways. First, the 'substratum' of Romanian (that is, the language spoken by the proto-Romanians before they switched to Latin) must have been similar to Albanian; and secondly, there must have been close contact between Albanians and early Romanian-speakers over a long period, involving a shared pastoral life. (Some key elements of the pastoral vocabulary in Romanian are borrowed from Albanian.) [63] The substratum elements include both structural matters, such as the positioning of the definite article as a suffix on the end of the noun, and various elements of primitive Balkan pre-Latin vocabulary, such as copil ('child' in Romanian) or kopil ('bastard child' in Albanian). [64] If the links between the two languages were only at substratum level, this might not imply any geographical proximity - it would merely show that proto-Albanian was similar to other varieties of Illyrian spoken elsewhere. But the pastoral connections do indicate that Albanians and early Romanians lived for a long time in the same (or at least overlapping) areas.

This has some geographical implications. Late Latin developed in two different forms in the Balkans: a coastal variety, which survived as a distinct language (known as Dalmatian) until the end of the nineteenth century, and the form spoken in the interior, which turned into Romanian and Vlach. [65] From place-names it is clear that the coastal form, spoken also in Shkodra and Durres, penetrated some way into the northern Albanian mountains. [66] There are some traces of this variety of Latin in Albanian, but the Albanian language's links with the inland variety of Balkan Latin are much stronger. This suggests that the centre of gravity ofAlbanian-Vlach symbiosis lay a little further to the east. [67]

When and how did that symbiosis take place? Presumably the Latin-speaking proto-Romanians came to pastoralism later than the early Albanians. If they had been doing it for as long as the Albanians, and in similar areas, they would - just like the Albanians - have escaped Latinization altogether. Some historians have decided that the proto-Romanians must have been Latin-speaking city-dwellers, who somehow extricated themselves from their towns in the early Slav centuries and became long-distance travellers or shepherds instead; but this seems inherently implausible. [68] (Had they come from the towns, their Latin would surely have been closer to standard Latin in its structure, too.) There is in fact enough Latin agricultural vocabulary in Romanian -words for sowing, ploughing, harrowing, and so on - to show that they were farming in Roman times. [69] The shift towards pastoralism was probably quite gradual. One particular factor that may have helped to promote it was the practice of horse-breeding, which was, or at least became, a Vlach speciality: the medieval records are full of Vlach muleteers and Vlachs leading caravans of pack-horses. [70] Such an occupation requires contact with towns (where the trade is), and may be combined with some farming in the towns' vicinity; but it also involves a form of stock-breeding, which could have given the early Vlachs an entree into the higher-altitude world of Albanian flocks and herds.

The main area of the Balkan interior where a Latin-speaking population may have continued, in both towns and country, after the Slav invasion, has already been mentioned: it included the upper Morava valley, northern Macedonia, and the whole of Kosovo. It is, therefore, in the uplands of the Kosovo area (particularly, but not only, on the western side, including parts of Montenegro) that this Albanian-Vlach symbiosis probably developed. [71] All the evidence comes together at this point. What it suggests is that the Kosovo region, together with at least part of northern Albania, was the crucial focus of two distinct but interlinked ethnic histories: the survival of the Albanians, and the emergence of the Romanians and Vlachs. One large group of Vlachs seems to have broken away and moved southwards by the ninth or tenth century; the proto-Romanians stayed in contact with Albanians significantly longer, before drifting north-eastwards, and crossing the Danube in the twelfth century. [72]

Having reached these conclusions, it may be possible, finally, to draw some further implications from them that point back to a much earlier period of Kosovo's history. The point is a very simple one. If Albanian-speakers were able to live in this area without losing their language during the period from the sixth century to the twelfth, is there any reason to think that they could not have been there in the previous six centuries or more? The Roman province of Dardania contained some Roman towns and several large estates, but it was far from being utterly and homogeneously Romanized: frequent Roman references to Dardanian bandits and robbers, and the presence of many forts and watch-towers, suggest that it was never completely under control. [73] References to Dardanian cheese, a famous and widely exported product, also testify to a large shepherding population. [74] And if the shepherds in the hills were speaking proto-Albanian, then perhaps that is what the ordinary Dardanians had spoken in the valleys too, before the Romans came. This is more a speculation than a conclusion; and it is not meant to exclude other areas in the Albanian (or Montenegrin) mountains further to the west, given that 'Dardania' was, essentially, a tribal division, not a linguistic one. Once again it must be emphasized that such ancient history can have no implications for modern politics. Nevertheless, the idea that the Illyrian Dardanians were ancestors of the Albanians may be of some sentimental interest to Kosovo Albanians today.

Chapter 3. Medieval Kosovo before Prince Lazar: 850s-1380s

The previous chapter brought the political history (if such it may be called) of Kosovo up to the final period of Bulgarian-Macedonian rule, before the territory of Tsar Samuel was reconquered by the Byzantine Emperor Basil the Bulgar-slayer. Medieval Kosovo is often referred to in general terms as 'the cradle of the Serbs', as if it had been a Serb heartland from the outset; but the reality was rather different. Just over 800 years separate the arrival of the Serbs in the Balkans in the seventh century from the final Ottoman conquest in the 1450s: out of those eight centuries, kosovo was Serb-ruled for only the last two-and-a-half - less that on-ethird of the entire period. Bulgarian khans or tsars held Kosovo from the 850s until the early eleventh century, and Byzantine Emperors until the final decades of the twelfth.

Unfortunately there is very little direct evidence about conditions in Kosovo during those earlier centuries of Bulgarian and Byzantine rule. We can assume that the Slav population that had settled in Kosovo was brought within the cultural realm of the Bulgarian empire, which means that it would have been included in the Bulgarian dioceses of the Orthodox church. Thanks to the work of Saints Cyril and Methodius (and their followers) in the ninth century, the Slavs had a liturgy and other texts in their own language, written in either of two newly invented alphabets: Cyrillic and Glagolitic. The western macedonian town of Ohrid developed strongly as a cultural and religious centre in the ninth and tenth centuries, and by the end of Tsar Samuel's reign the archbishopric of Ohrid included bishoprics in Skopje, Lipljan (Alb.: Lipjan; a town just south of Pristina) and Prizren. [1] Although the formal division of the Christian Church into Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox did not occur until 1054, it would not be anachronistic to describe this Bulgarian Christianity as Eastern in the ninth and tenth centuries; the roots of the conflict between East and West went back a long way. (The Slav liturgy was at first violently rejected by the Roman Church, on the grounds that God spoke only three languages: Hebrew, Greek and Latin).

…


http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/nm/kosovo.html



This claim is put forward as a prime argument against the 'Illyrian' origins of the Albanians by Schramm: Eroberer, pp. 33-4; Anfange, p. 23. It had already been answered by Cabej, who pointed out that the shift to 'h' belonged to a much earlier (pre-Roman) period of Albanian: 'Problem of Autochthony', p. 44. Schramm's case can be disproved by a series of Albanian borrowings from Latin, such as shkorse (rug) from scortea, shkendije (spark) from scantilla, shkemb (rock-formation) from scamnum, and shkop (staff) from scopae: see Capidan, 'Raporturile'. pp. 546-8; Philippide, Originea Rominilor, vol. 2, pp. 653-4; Cabej, 'Zur Charakteristik', p. 177; and the entries in Meyer, Etymologisches Worterbuch.




To me I put Romanian/Aromanian origin more South of the Balkans in an area of Southern/Eastern Serbia, Kosovo, Western Bulgaria, Macedonia, Northern Albania, Herzegovina, Montenegro, around modern Albania.

I still put Albanian as native to Albania and surrounding areas as Noel Malcolm does but he doesn't wanna go into that type of puzzle and seems to of been mainly Albanian influence into Romanian. While according to other linguists proto-Romanian speakers were Albanian speakers that had shifted over to Latin.



The evidence is in fact very mixed; some of the Albanian forms (of both urban and rural names) suggest transmission via Slav, but others -including the towns of Shkodra, Drisht, Lezha, Shkup (Skopje) and perhaps Shtip (Stip, south-east of Skopje) - follow the pattern of continuous Albanian development from the Latin. [48] (One common objection to this argument, claiming that 'sc-' in Latin should have turned into 'h-', not 'shk-' in Albanian, rests on a chronological error, and can be disregarded.) [49] There are also some fairly convincing derivations of Slav names for rivers in northern Albania - particularly the Bojana (Alb.: Buena) and the Drim (Alb.: Drin) - which suggest that the Slavs must have acquired their names from the Albanian forms. [50]

[Rizza]

Albanians are far from being descended from Illyrians only in their Paleo Balkan part, they have heavy Thracian admixture. E-V13 is absent in Illyrians so far but heavily present in Thracians.
Dacians were subset of Thracians so that might have been the connection.

EV-13 is just some Balkan Y-DNA that hit the boom pretty much which happened exactly in every Balkan country Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria etc.

The influence was largely Albanian into Romanian:



First, the 'substratum' of Romanian (that is, the language spoken by the proto-Romanians before they switched to Latin) must have been similar to Albanian; and secondly, there must have been close contact between Albanians and early Romanian-speakers over a long period, involving a shared pastoral life.
Some key elements of the pastoral vocabulary in Romanian are borrowed from Albanian.) [63] The substratum elements include both structural matters, such as the positioning of the definite article as a suffix on the end of the noun, and various elements of primitive Balkan pre-Latin vocabulary, such as copil ('child' in Romanian) or kopil ('bastard child' in Albanian).


- Malcolm




T.J. Winnifrith, Nobody's Kingdom: A History of Northern Albania,The Illyrians, pg 136


Albanian is related to Messapic and by Eric Hamp both are grouped into 'Adriatic'



some scholars place Illyrian and Messapic in the same branch. Eric Hamp has grouped them under "Messapo-Illyrian" which is further grouped with Albanian under "Adriatic Indo-European".[15] Other schemes group the three languages under "General Illyrian" and "Western Paleo-Balkan".[16] A number of shared features between Messapic and proto-Albanian may have emerged either as a result of linguistic contacts between Proto-Messapic and Pre-Proto-Albanian within the Balkan peninsula in prehistoric times, or of a closer relation as shown by the quality of the correspondences in the lexical area and shared innovations between Messapic and Albanian.[17]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapic_language

Albanian acquired it's current form before Slavs arrived:

''The earliest identifiable loanwords are from Greek, e.g., moker ‘millstone’ (< West Grk [Doric] paxocvd) or draper'sickle’ (< West Grk Spanavov). As in these two cases, the evidence suggests that Greek influence came from western Greece, more particularly from Greek colonies on the Adriatic coast. Much more extensive was the later influence of Latin. Even very common words such as mik ‘friend’ (< Lat amicus) or kendoj ‘I sing; read’ (< Lat cantare) come from Latin and attest to a widespread intermingling of pre-Albanian and Balkan Latin speakers during the Roman period, roughly from the second century BC to the fifth century AD. The Greek and Latin loans have undergone most of the far-reaching phonological changes which have so altered the shape of inherited IE words while Slavic and Turkish words do not show these changes. Thus Albanian must have acquired much of its present form by the time the Slavs entered into the Balkans in the fifth and sixth centuries AD.''

'' Although there are some lexical items that appear to be shared between Romanian (and by extension Dacian) and Albanian, by far the strongest connections can be argued between Albanian and Illyrian. The latter was at least attested in what is historically regarded as Albanian territory and there is no evidence of any major migration into Albanian territory since our records of Illyrian occupation. The loan words from Greek and Latin date back to before the Christian era and suggest that the ancestors of the Albanians must have occupied Albania by then to have absorbed such loans from their historical neighbors. As the Illyrians occupied Albanian territory at this time, they are the most likely recipients of such loans. Finally, as Shaban Demiraj argues, the ancient Illyrian place- names of the region have achieved their current form through the natural application of the phonetic rules governing Albanian, e.g., Durrachion > Alb Durres (with Albanian initial accent) or Illyrian Aulona > Alb Vlone ~ Vlore (with rhotacism in Tosk). Demiraj suggests that the transition from Illyrian to Albanian began during the fifth and sixth centuries AD and was clearly completed before the immigration of Albanian speakers to Greece and Italy in the fourteenth-sixteenth centuries.''

Encyclopedia Of Indo-European Culture
by J. P. Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams

[Rizza]

There might be a connection between certain words in Romanian of Dacian origin and certain Albanian words. Illyrian could have been related to Dacian-Thracian languages.



Dacians literally bordered Illyrians and in the Central Balkans Dacians and Illyrians met

Found a map during a revolt against Romans

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Great_Illyrian_Revolt_%28English%29.svg/1024px-Great_Illyrian_Revolt_%28English%29.svg.png

[zebruh]

Albanians are far from being descended from Illyrians only in their Paleo Balkan part, they have heavy Thracian admixture. E-V13 is absent in Illyrians so far but heavily present in Thracians.
Dacians were subset of Thracians so that might have been the connection.This is not true. I am J-L283 and albanians have a higher subset of J-L283 within their ethnic group than others.
And most ancient J-L283 is along the adriatic. Maros culture being the oldest found at 1900BC but having 55 percent agean and 34 percent steppe. And many ancient samples. Here is a map for viewing

https://www.google.com › viewer
J2b-L283 ancient DNA - Google My Maps

But also Y full so you can see the tree for how they relate to each other.
There is more but they are not in tree form to see how the kits are related in the tree.
You will see indeed there is a strong albanian subset here but also other J-L283
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH4679/

Here we can see macadonian J-L283 decendants. We know its not just turk because one is in india and they are all related.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC64043/

This is my sample
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z600/
Dominican republic. It has an * for Z2509 but i took a seperate snp test and it is negative. So I am basal z600. The J-L283 admin confirmed I am z600 and I am z627 snp.

My theory is that they were migrated through the agean on to the adriatic coast because mok 15 sample scored 55 percent agean so they maybe migrated north and somewhat east but also into the italian peninsula and sardinia. Also corsica because there is a ancient sample but it has low coverage but looks J-L283.

Although they are seriously trying to push for some yanmaya theory from northern and baltic europe which makes no sense given there is no J-L283 in the whole of northern europe / baltic pre roman era. And we even have ancient sardinian sample.


https://indo-european.eu/2020/05/maros-shows-yamnaya-derived-east-bbc-ancestry-and-local-admixture/


We observed no significant variation in the eastern European steppe-like component between individuals. Pooling individuals, admixture proportions are estimated to be around 8% (± 1.2% SE) western hunter gatherers, 55% (± 2.5% SE) Aegean Neolithic farmers, and 37% (± 2.3% SE) Eastern European steppe-like population. Quantification of shared drift to other temporally and geographically close ancient individuals via outgroup f3 statistics did not reveal any particularly close affinities, reflecting the genetic homogenization of Europe during the Bronze Age.

They even put it in bold. But ignore the 55 percent neolthic agean! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220928/5a97bd61314c502d15e24634b4a5f3ce.jpg

[zebruh]

For e-v13 I don't know but greeks have alot of ev-13 not just thracians.
But I don't about the ancient samples ev13 and on Y full there is no ancieng sample uploaded to the tree.
If people have studies of ancient ev13 that would be interesting to post about

Thracians in ancient times inhabit bythnia and some parts of anatolia when the troy was around.
I also think celts did too

[Rizza]

^ She is a person who is just politically motivated and loves to take things out of context like these Serbs. :lol:

Dacians/Thracians were also an interesting group of people who bordered Illyrians. And EV-13 is an interesting Y-DNA.

[Rizza]

I am possibly EV-13 from my mothers side.

[Rizza]

Some more on Albanian:

''The evidence is in fact very mixed; some of the Albanian forms (of both urban and rural names) suggest transmission via Slav, but others -including the towns of Shkodra, Drisht, Lezha, Shkup (Skopje) and perhaps Shtip (Stip, south-east of Skopje) - follow the pattern of continuous Albanian development from the Latin. (One common objection to this argument, claiming that 'sc-' in Latin should have turned into 'h-', not 'shk-' in Albanian, rests on a chronological error, and can be disregarded.) There are also some fairly convincing derivations of Slav names for rivers in northern Albania - particularly the Bojana (Alb.: Buena) and the Drim (Alb.: Drin) - which suggest that the Slavs must have acquired their names from the Albanian forms. ''

'' This claim is put forward as a prime argument against the 'Illyrian' origins of the Albanians by Schramm: Eroberer, pp. 33-4; Anfange, p. 23. It had already been answered by Cabej, who pointed out that the shift to 'h' belonged to a much earlier (pre-Roman) period of Albanian: 'Problem of Autochthony', p. 44. Schramm's case can be disproved by a series of Albanian borrowings from Latin, such as shkorse (rug) from scortea, shkendije (spark) from scantilla, shkemb (rock-formation) from scamnum, and shkop (staff) from scopae: see Capidan, 'Raporturile'. pp. 546-8; Philippide, Originea Rominilor, vol. 2, pp. 653-4; Cabej, 'Zur Charakteristik', p. 177; and the entries in Meyer, Etymologisches Worterbuch.''


- Malcolm

[Rizza]

EV-13 is just some Balkan Y-DNA that hit the boom pretty much which happened exactly in every Balkan country Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, Greece, Macedonia, Bulgaria etc.

The influence was largely Albanian into Romanian:



- Malcolm






Albanian is related to Messapic and by Eric Hamp both are grouped into 'Adriatic'



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapic_language

Albanian acquired it's current form before Slavs arrived:

''The earliest identifiable loanwords are from Greek, e.g., moker ‘millstone’ (< West Grk [Doric] paxocvd) or draper'sickle’ (< West Grk Spanavov). As in these two cases, the evidence suggests that Greek influence came from western Greece, more particularly from Greek colonies on the Adriatic coast. Much more extensive was the later influence of Latin. Even very common words such as mik ‘friend’ (< Lat amicus) or kendoj ‘I sing; read’ (< Lat cantare) come from Latin and attest to a widespread intermingling of pre-Albanian and Balkan Latin speakers during the Roman period, roughly from the second century BC to the fifth century AD. The Greek and Latin loans have undergone most of the far-reaching phonological changes which have so altered the shape of inherited IE words while Slavic and Turkish words do not show these changes. Thus Albanian must have acquired much of its present form by the time the Slavs entered into the Balkans in the fifth and sixth centuries AD.''

'' Although there are some lexical items that appear to be shared between Romanian (and by extension Dacian) and Albanian, by far the strongest connections can be argued between Albanian and Illyrian. The latter was at least attested in what is historically regarded as Albanian territory and there is no evidence of any major migration into Albanian territory since our records of Illyrian occupation. The loan words from Greek and Latin date back to before the Christian era and suggest that the ancestors of the Albanians must have occupied Albania by then to have absorbed such loans from their historical neighbors. As the Illyrians occupied Albanian territory at this time, they are the most likely recipients of such loans. Finally, as Shaban Demiraj argues, the ancient Illyrian place- names of the region have achieved their current form through the natural application of the phonetic rules governing Albanian, e.g., Durrachion > Alb Durres (with Albanian initial accent) or Illyrian Aulona > Alb Vlone ~ Vlore (with rhotacism in Tosk). Demiraj suggests that the transition from Illyrian to Albanian began during the fifth and sixth centuries AD and was clearly completed before the immigration of Albanian speakers to Greece and Italy in the fourteenth-sixteenth centuries.''

Encyclopedia Of Indo-European Culture
by J. P. Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams


I think pretty much every claim or argument against Illyrian origin of Albanian can pretty much be answered .

[Rizza]

This is not true. I am J-L283 and albanians have a higher subset of J-L283 within their ethnic group than others.
And most ancient J-L283 is along the adriatic. Maros culture being the oldest found at 1900BC but having 55 percent agean and 34 percent steppe. And many ancient samples. Here is a map for viewing

https://www.google.com › viewer
J2b-L283 ancient DNA - Google My Maps

But also Y full so you can see the tree for how they relate to each other.
There is more but they are not in tree form to see how the kits are related in the tree.
You will see indeed there is a strong albanian subset here but also other J-L283
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH4679/

Here we can see macadonian J-L283 decendants. We know its not just turk because one is in india and they are all related.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC64043/

This is my sample
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z600/
Dominican republic. It has an * for Z2509 but i took a seperate snp test and it is negative. So I am basal z600. The J-L283 admin confirmed I am z600 and I am z627 snp.

My theory is that they were migrated through the agean on to the adriatic coast because mok 15 sample scored 55 percent agean so they maybe migrated north and somewhat east but also into the italian peninsula and sardinia. Also corsica because there is a ancient sample but it has low coverage but looks J-L283.

Although they are seriously trying to push for some yanmaya theory from northern and baltic europe which makes no sense given there is no J-L283 in the whole of northern europe / baltic pre roman era. And we even have ancient sardinian sample.


https://indo-european.eu/2020/05/maros-shows-yamnaya-derived-east-bbc-ancestry-and-local-admixture/



They even put it in bold. But ignore the 55 percent neolthic agean! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220928/5a97bd61314c502d15e24634b4a5f3ce.jpg

J2b2-L283 was obviously part of a proto-proto-Albanian population together with R1b-z2103. There is a reason why they peak in Albanians today compared to other Balkan groups. EV-13 is in general a common Balkan Y-DNA and is even found across Europe. And Albanian is related to Messapic where J2b2-L283 was found.

Romanian originated most likely in the West-Central Balkans from Vlachs.

[Tongio]

This is not true. I am J-L283 and albanians have a higher subset of J-L283 within their ethnic group than others.
And most ancient J-L283 is along the adriatic. Maros culture being the oldest found at 1900BC but having 55 percent agean and 34 percent steppe. And many ancient samples. Here is a map for viewing

https://www.google.com › viewer
J2b-L283 ancient DNA - Google My Maps

But also Y full so you can see the tree for how they relate to each other.
There is more but they are not in tree form to see how the kits are related in the tree.
You will see indeed there is a strong albanian subset here but also other J-L283
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH4679/

Here we can see macadonian J-L283 decendants. We know its not just turk because one is in india and they are all related.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC64043/

This is my sample
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z600/
Dominican republic. It has an * for Z2509 but i took a seperate snp test and it is negative. So I am basal z600. The J-L283 admin confirmed I am z600 and I am z627 snp.

My theory is that they were migrated through the agean on to the adriatic coast because mok 15 sample scored 55 percent agean so they maybe migrated north and somewhat east but also into the italian peninsula and sardinia. Also corsica because there is a ancient sample but it has low coverage but looks J-L283.

Although they are seriously trying to push for some yanmaya theory from northern and baltic europe which makes no sense given there is no J-L283 in the whole of northern europe / baltic pre roman era. And we even have ancient sardinian sample.


https://indo-european.eu/2020/05/maros-shows-yamnaya-derived-east-bbc-ancestry-and-local-admixture/



They even put it in bold. But ignore the 55 percent neolthic agean! https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220928/5a97bd61314c502d15e24634b4a5f3ce.jpg

Só what they are 55% neolithic? Spaniards are too , and yet they are mostly R1b.You are not basal Z600 , you are basal Z2509, imbecile.
Everything só far points towards a migrations of L283 with the indo europeans,from northwest caucasus tô central europe, possibly as a minor lineage in the corded ware culture.And we also have 0 european neolithic L283 s in europe, that área is very well sampled, unlike Ukraine and moldova.If you don't like It because you feel more related to the mena folk, recognise your imesurable bias , you are delusional.Stop poluting the J- L283 thread in Eupedia too "Wanderer".Do you have mental problems?

[Rizza]

Croatian member Feiichy, Tongio etc copy paste pseudo intellectual theories from Albanians on Eupedia who are EV-13 and wish that proto-Albanians were EV-13 basically dudes like 'Hawk' , 'Johanne Derite' (A guy who got banned from Anthrogenica made like 100 socks there spamming content from pseudo intellectuals like Matzinger who is easy to debunk) and that Kosovar retard 'mount123' who claims to be J2b2. :lol:

Matzinger, Fine, Winnfrith, Georgiev, and many of these others are just pseudo intellectuals that can and have easily been debunked. Messapic and Albanian are considered related and to of developed in Western Balkans. Matzinger the guy who claims Messapic was not Illyrian despite it's supported by archaeology, genetics and linguistics and claims 'Scutari' in Northern Albania should of turned into 'Hader' instead of 'Shkoder' :lol:

[Tongio]

Show me the solid evidence for messapian as close to both ancestral albanian and Illiyrian languages, i might change my mind.Maybe J2b-L283 clan was Yamnaya instead of corded, as messapian is also not closely related to ítalo celtic lang.And mygrated tô central Europe preserving their non corded language (what i think is is unlikely)from Hungary , only tô backmygrate later as ruling elite to the northwest balkans , and then become dominant.

[zebruh]

]


Só what they are 55% neolithic? Spaniards are too , and yet they are mostly R1b.You are not basal Z600 , you are basal Z2509, imbecile.
Everything só far points towards a migrations of L283 with the indo europeans,from northwest caucasus tô central europe, possibly as a minor lineage in the corded ware culture.And we also have 0 european neolithic L283 s in europe, that área is very well sampled, unlike Ukraine and moldova.If you don't like It because you feel more related to the mena folk, recognise your imesurable bias , you are delusional.Stop poluting the J- L283 thread in Eupedia too "Wanderer".Do you have mental problems?

What are you fucking retarded?
I said neolithic AEGEAN you retard.
Not neolithic hunter gatherer or whatever. Its specifically says AEGEAN.


https://indo-european.eu/2020/05/maros-shows-yamnaya-derived-east-bbc-ancestry-and-local-admixture/

I AM NOT Z2509 IDIOT.
I AM NEGATIVE FOR IT.

STOP THINKING YOU KNOW MORE THEN ME ABOUT MY SNP'S AND MARKERS YOU DUMB FUCK.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220929/bef21c85e2e32eae008df4629ba4e842.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220929/8e27eede85c38dc1aa72b0d7e35d9af6.jpg


Oh wait? Where are all the ancient J-L283? Not in Volga Ural area.
Not even in british isles, scandanvia where the cold ice would perserve ancient remains and dna well.

In the mediterranean and adriatic...
But hey I am bias because you want to believe its several thousands and thousands miles away where we have no J-L283 thats even close to the place where you say it came from smh.
Look at the severe lack of -J-L283 j2b2 in europe
No ancient J-L283 in western,central and volga ural or northern europe thats pre roman.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2432*/

Look at their tmrca between their clades. They go fro. 8400 to 7200 to 6400 to 3900 to 2700 and so on

J-L283 Literally goes from tmrca with j2b2 at 9700
To J2b-L283 at 5500.

Such a long gap. It means J-L283 was bottle necked on island guy for several thousand years. And then a disaster happened. Either natural disaster or massacre and invasion of their origin before arriving at the adriatic.
Or you should see more diveristy between J-L283 and j2b2 with more tmrca estimates between them both of different markers

[zebruh]

Croatian member Feiichy, Tongio etc copy paste pseudo intellectual theories from Albanians on Eupedia who are EV-13 and wish that proto-Albanians were EV-13 basically dudes like 'Hawk' , 'Johanne Derite' (A guy who got banned from Anthrogenica made like 100 socks there spamming content from pseudo intellectuals like Matzinger who is easy to debunk) and that Kosovar retard 'mount123' who claims to be J2b2. [emoji38]

Matzinger, Fine, Winnfrith, Georgiev, and many of these others are just pseudo intellectuals that can and have easily been debunked. Messapic and Albanian are considered related and to of developed in Western Balkans. Matzinger the guy who claims Messapic was not Illyrian despite it's supported by archaeology, genetics and linguistics and claims 'Scutari' in Northern Albania should of turned into 'Hader' instead of 'Shkoder' [emoji38]Messapians are Iapygians. We already know daunians who are Ipygians have J2b-L283 as we do but this illyrian decendant who speaks a non illyrian language wants to argue about an illyrian tribe language. Albanian is an illyrian language. We already know albanians are illyrian decendants. J2b-L283 is too concentrated in the Albanian ethnicity.
Most of the ancient J-L283 is where the illyrians lived and where albanians lived or nearby.

[Rizza]

''The answer to this is that in judging whether a sound change is originally Albanian or not, chronological differences must be taken into consideration. The change of initial sk- to h- is very old in Albanian, perhaps even pre-Balkanic, and it is no wonder if some ancient Balkanic toponyms do not conf orm to it. Some toponyms came to Albanian through Romance or Slavic mediation or even through both. But on the main Albanian names such as Lesh, Drisht, Kunavja, Drin, Buene , Mat ', and Ishm can be derived from their ancient forms Ussus, Drivastum, Candavia, Drinus, Barbanna, Mathis, and Isamnus only by Albanian sound changes, and by no others. One has only to suppose an initial accentuation in Illyrian : Dyrrachium, Isamnus , Drivastum (cf. Messapian Brundisium > Brindisi ). ''

Radoslav Katicic - Ancient Balkan Languages

[Rizza]

The maritime and piscatorial terminology is not so completey foreign as the linguists were prone to think under the impact of the first impression . It must be taken into consideration that the cities on the coast were probably romanized first, and that the Modern Albanian language is probably the descendant of dialects originally spoken in the hills.

It has been said furthermore that, linguistically, Albanian corresponds more to Thracian than to Illyrian. Such a contention cannot be well founded because we know too little about both Thracian and Illyrian. And for the few preserved Illyrian glosses it is remarkably easy to find Albanian correspondences.
The existence of many correspondences between Rumanian an Albanian has also been thought of as an argument for the Thracian origin of the latter. But this again cannot decide the question since neither the original area of Rumanian nor the nature of the contacts that were the cause of the correspondences between these languages are known. The question thus remains open.

These correspondences seem to confirm the belief that Albanian is a descendant of Daco-Mysian. This hypothesis is based on the identical comparative phonologies of the two languages. But the comparative phonology of Daco-Mysian is so conjectural that no far-reaching conclusions should be drawn from it.
It is quite possible that there was a transfer of language from the mountains of the interior to the Albanian coast, which probably had been romanized to a great extent. But there is no reason to assume any large-scale migration, and even for Dardania and Paeonia, if the cradle of Albanian is to be sought there, we cannot be sure that they were Thracian in late antiquity.

Nothing in the nature of a proof has been presented so far for the Thracian origin of Albanian, only a cumulation of indications which, without deciding the question, prevent us from rejecting the Thracian hypothesis outright. The only thing one can do is to keep an open mind while remembering that in this controversy the burden of proof is with those who deny the Illyrian descent of Albanian


- Ancient Balkan Languages, Radoslav Katicic

[lumas]

Pretty good points. E-V13 also points to Danubian expansion. Albanians as ethnic group most likely formed somewhere in central Balkans, in transitional Illyrian-Thracian zone, somewhere around Kosovo.
They are partly Illyrian, but their Illyrian ancestors were mountain Illyrians and not coastal ones.

Coastal Illyrians were absorbed by Dalmatian Croats who continued with their nautical and pirate traditions.

Main three Albanian hgs are all Paleo-Balkan, but J2b2 clades and eastern R1b were found in ancient inhabitants of Croatia and in Illyrian tribe of southern Italy, while E-V13 was absent.
However Romanized Moesians from Serbia (Moesians were Thracian tribe) were E-V13 heavy.

So they are mix of Paleo-Balkanic tribes, Romans and Slavs mainly but everything points to their origins somewhere in interior, far from the sea and in contact with eastern Balkans and Danubian cultures as well.
They are land of the eagles, a mountain folk.

Your main Paleo-Balkan clade is E-V13 which I showed here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?367860-Y-DNA-studies-on-South-Slavs

So not exactly much of an assimilation you did, mostly assimilated a bunch of Roman colonist transplants.

Even regions like Montenegro, Macedonia, Greece have high E-V13. You and other Slavs have insignificant J2b2-L283 and R1b unlike Albanians associated with Illyrians.

Nothing suggests Albanians originated in any kind of transition zone simply because they carry E-V13 when they show high continuity with Iron Age Western Balkans, we already have some of the most numerous Albanian lineages in a single site in Iron Age Albania:



''I14688 (600-400 BCE), a male sample from IA Çinamak was uploaded on FTDNA. The initial classification in the "Southern Arc" papers is that he's under R-L51.

On FTDNA, this sample was re-classified and uploaded under R-PF7563.

R-PF7563>Z29758 is one the major and most diverse Albanian lineages.
Nice catch! I personally never looked into this sample, as I thought he is some low coverage R-L51 as reported by the Southern Arc paper. I just looked at his BAM file and I would have to agree with FTDNA that I14688 is in fact R1b-PF7562>PF7563!

At R-PF7562 level, he has GG490/BY856/Y19696+ (3T), then at R-PF7563 level he is showing PF7563+ (1A), with no contradicting or negative reads.

It seems Lazaridis et al. classified him as R-L51 based on SNPs L51 which has two derived and one ancestral/negative read, and E207/Y410/MF659561 which has one derived and one ancestral read. So, unlike the R-PF7562>PF7563 calls, the R-L51 calls are clearly ambiguous.

I think this is a nice development with regards to Albanian Y-DNA. Just in LBA-IA Çinamak site in NE Albania, we have J2b-L283, R1b-CTS9219 aka R1b-CTS1450, and now R1b-PF7563, which together compose ~35-40% of modern Albanian Y-DNA.''



With your logic you could argue the same basis for any other group of people that today carry this lineage.

Today in many regions these Illyrian lineages make up 40%-50%, this cannot be a coincidence, you're the one who needs to explain this, nothing suggests any of these lineages came from Balkan interior with E-V13 whatsoever or that E-V13 is a proto-Albanian marker. This is just something you made up which you're the one who needs to prove.


Albanian is related to Messapic / Iapygian and we see the same lineages there.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/Classification_of_Albanian.png/921px-Classification_of_Albanian.png

[Varda]

Your main Paleo-Balkan clade is E-V13 which I showed here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?367860-Y-DNA-studies-on-South-Slavs

So not exactly much of an assimilation you did, mostly assimilated a bunch of Roman colonist transplants.

Even regions like Montenegro, Macedonia, Greece have high E-V13. You and other Slavs have insignificant J2b2-L283 and R1b unlike Albanians associated with Illyrians.

Nothing suggests Albanians originated in any kind of transition zone simply because they carry E-V13 when they show high continuity with Iron Age Western Balkans, we already have some of the most numerous Albanian lineages in a single site in Iron Age Albania:




With your logic you could argue the same basis for any other group of people that today carry this lineage.

Today in many regions these Illyrian lineages make up 40%-50%, this cannot be a coincidence, you're the one who needs to explain this, nothing suggests any of these lineages came from Balkan interior with E-V13 whatsoever or that E-V13 is a proto-Albanian marker. This is just something you made up which you're the one who needs to prove.


Albanian is related to Messapic / Iapygian and we see the same lineages there.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bb/Classification_of_Albanian.png/921px-Classification_of_Albanian.png

You are another sock of mentally ill banned Shiptar troll Baki/Wizz/Batman/Bart0s/Arif.

[lumas]

There is no connection. Romanian has mostly Albanian influence, words dating to Late Roman antiquity. And it suggests they originated in the Southern/Central Balkans and a proto-Albanian expansion. You need to prove why some of the most numerous Albanian lineages were found in Iron Age Northern Albania in a single site. R-PF7563 also which hasn't been found anywhere else either. Nothing suggests any of these ever came with E-V13. You need to explain why E-V13 is your most common pre-Slavic marker and why these others are numerous Albanian lineages.

[lumas]

''The Albanoi (Ancient Greek: Ἀλβανοί, Albanoi; Latin: Albani) were an Illyrian tribe. They were possibly first mentioned by Hecataeus of Miletus (550-476 BCE) under the name Abroi. Ptolemy (200-118 BCE) is the first authors who mentions them under the name Albanoi. Their central settlement was called Albanopolis (Ἀλβανόπολις) and was located roughly between the Mat and Shkumbin rivers, in central Albania. Zgërdhesh has been identified as the likely location of Albanopolis. Stephanus of Byzantium who reproduced Hecataeus added an entry for another settlement named Arbon in Illyria whose inhabitants were called Arbonioi or Arbonites. Another Arbon which may have been located in central Albania in the same region as Albanopolis was recorded by Polybius. John of Nikiû wrote in the 7th century CE about a people known as Arbanitai in the Greek translation of the manuscript, who have been identified as the same people as the Albanoi.''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi



Waiting for explanation.



We got a bunch of Y-DNA from Illyrians, names etc. Albanian influence into Romanian suggests a proto-Albanian expansion and a southern Balkan origin of Romanian.


E-V13 was not found in Illyrians because it is not a proto-Albanian marker of course. Today it is your main pre-Slavic lineage. Some Y-DNA spread across the Balkans. Who even knows how it was picked up, does not even peak in modern Vlachs.



Suggest to make some arguments.

[lumas]

Albanians are far from being descended from Illyrians only in their Paleo Balkan part, they have heavy Thracian admixture. E-V13 is absent in Illyrians so far but heavily present in Thracians.
Dacians were subset of Thracians so that might have been the connection.

Proto-Albanians were Illyrians R1b+J2b2, same lineages is also what we see in Iron Age Albania and among Iapygians , insigificant among your people, your main Paleo-Balkan lineage is E-V13 . You cannot explain why these lineages exist today and have the highest diversity there. You are nothing but some butthurt biased person that has no arguments and is butthurt proto-Albanians came from these people, that is exactly what it is. It was hilarious how you thumbed up that Brazilian nut case in the other thread , you people are nuts, ignore actual genetic evidence.


Albanian could of never come from Thracian:




The strongest evidence, however, comes not from the meaning of the proper names (which is always open to doubt) but from their structure. Most Illyrian names are composed of a single unit; many Thracian ones are made of two units joined together. Several Thracian place-names end in -para, for example, which is thought to mean 'ford', or -diza, which is thought to mean 'fortress'. Thus in the territory of the Bessi, a well-known Thracian tribe, we have the town of Bessapara, 'ford of the Bessi'. The structure here is the same as in many European languages: thus the 'town of Peter' can be called Peterborough, Petrograd, Petersburg, Pierreville, and so on. But the crucial fact is that this structure is impossible in Albanian, which can only say 'Qytet i Pjetrit', not 'Pjeterqytet'. If para were the Albanian for 'ford', then the place-name would have to be 'Para e Besseve'; this might be reduced in time to something like 'Parabessa', but it could never become 'Bessapara'. And what is at stake here is not some superficial feature of the language, which might easily change over time, but a profound structural principle. This is one of the strongest available arguments to show that Albanian cannot have developed out of Thracian.

And in any case, it is increasingly apparent that the whole satem/centum classification system does not correspond to the fundamental distinguishing features of the Indo-European languages: it may be the linguists' equivalent of one of those classifications of mammals by eighteenth-century biologists, which modern scientists have had to discard. [46] Another technical (and much more speculative) argument for identifying early Albanian with Thracian was put forward by the Bulgarian linguist Georgiev, who divided Thracian into two languages, one north-western, the other south-eastern, and argued on the basis of consonantal changes that Albanian must have come from the north-western one. But his arguments (at least in relation to the supposed Albanian connection) have been thoroughly dismantled by other scholars.





- Malcolm






Keep barking you propagandist , it is game over. CHECKMATE .

[lumas]

I guess Greeks must come from Thracian Moesi too since they have 30% E-V13 ? :lol: We know Ancient Greeks were J2a :lol:

https://i.postimg.cc/dV9dQZGj/Bilde-2022-11-21-002043627.png

[Speed]

The Albanian language was certainly spoken or originated in the Central Balkans and some of it's speakers moved also into the coastal area of the Balkans before the arrival of Slavs which caused the dialect split, you even have toponyms in Croatia such as Ragusa (Rush) which were taken from Latin speakers and not Croats.



This is further proof of the auctochthony of the Albanians in the regions of Kosova, Montenegro and Macedonia. Some of the ancient names of these areas are preserved as appellatives in the Albanian language. For example, the name Dardania itself (the territory of contemporary Kosova was part of the ancient Kingdom known by that name) is explained with the Albanian Dardhë. Similarly, the name of Ulqin, from the ancient name Ulcinium is linked by the scientists to the word ulk, ujk, of the Albanian language. Other ancient toponyms that belong to the Albanian territories in the former Yugoslavia have evolved in accordance to the historical phonetic rules of the Albanian language. Such cases are Naissus-Nish, Scupi-Shkup, Astibos-Shtip, Scardus-Shar, Ulpiana-Lipjan and many more. The explanation of why these ancient names have arrived to us in the form they did, is that these territories have been inhabited by Albanians continuously and not intermittingly. The presence of an Albanian speaking population has been preserved mostly in the names of the towns. This evidence demonstrates that the Albanian population could not have been made up of shepherds sheltered in the highlands or the mountains. Quite on the contrary, that population was urbanized and apparently with an advanced standard of living for its time.




Among other factors, the ancient toponomastic data, such as the contemporary names of places used by Slavs, which are explainable only through the phonetic rules of the ancient Albanian language, has convinced scientists that these territories were inhabited by Albanians. Distinguished linguists such as Norbert Jokl, Gustav Weygand, and Petrovici, and even some Yugoslav scholars like Henrik Baric and others, have argued that it was precisely the Dardania, defined as an enclave by the use of the ancient names such as Nish, Shkup, Shtip that was one of the centers of the formation of the Albanian people.

Although sometimes he tends to overestimate the role played by the Roman-Romanian population in the Balkans, Petrovici has affirmed that “the population found by the Slavs in the Eastern region of contemporary Serbia was not Romanized.” One of the arguments brought by Petrovici to support his theory are the contemporary names of the cities mentioned above. Linguists like Van Wejk have concluded that according to the toponymical arguments, the separation of the Serbs and Bulgarians from a non-Slavic population in the early Middle Ages, could be explained only with the presence of the Albanian population in these areas. According to him, the presence of a population which had Romanic origins belonged to a later phase of the Slav expansion. Some of these scholars, particularly Henrik Baric, have convincingly demonstrated this through the study of the ancient and medieval onomastic of the Dardania. Examining these ancient toponyms, Baric argues that,

“the phonetic characteristics show that they are ancient names that Southern Slavs have taken through the Albanian language. The reason for making this argument is that in these toponyms we find that the phonetic changes were performed before the arrival of the Southern Slavs in the historic territories of the Albanians.”

As we can see, Dardania was a center of formation for the Albanian ethnie and the Albanian language; an enclave where the Albanian language evolved without suffering the influence of the Slav languages surrounding it. Many scientists explain the intensive contacts between the Albanian and Romanian languages precisely through the ancient and the uninterrupted presence of Albanians in these areas. Under these conditions, the expansion of the Serb State in Kosova, during the twelve century onward was by no means a ‘liberation’ of the Serb lands but an annexation and occupation of Albanian territories.



On the Autochthony of Albanians in Kosova and the Postulated Massive Serb Migration at the End of the XVIIth Century
Selami Pulaha
Institute of History
The Albanian Academy of Sciences

[Speed]

Ulkinion -> Ulqin
Drivastum -> Drisht
Lissus -> Lezhe
Barbanna -> Bune
Drinus -> Drin
Mathis -> Mat
Dyrrachium -> Durres
Scodra -> Shkoder
Albanoi -> Arbanon

And the mountain bordering Kosovo-Albania Scardus -> Shar


Literally none of the coastal towns were taken from Slavs even there. So a Roman or post-Roman migration from the Central Balkans before the arrival of Slavs at least for some of it's speakers if Matzingers theory is correct . Some wave of speakers came later post-Slavic migrations. And these migrations didn't occur in only one direction but the other way around too. So you had Albanian speakers in both West-Central Balkans. Some also moved into Croatia and Romania and Bulgaria, Greece etc.


In the central Balkans these developed from Albanian Naissus -> Nish, Scupi -> Shkup, Astibos -> Shtip, Vicianum .-> Vushtrri , Ulpiana -> Lipjan , Petrizen -> Prizren possibly and more that I cannot think of now.

[Speed]

.....

[Sarmale]

I believe there is a special connection between them that isn't shared by other languages. What exactly the nature of that connection is, we don't know for sure. But there was clearly some period of closer co-existence in the past, probably in Central Balkans when proto-Romanian speakers were spread out around there. I don't think it's just from some Daco-Illyrian substratum. Also, the Latin/Romance words shared between them have consistent correspondences. I think it's possible that both people either were more widespread in the past or that they were not exactly in the same place as today and moved.