Rank the Germanic admixture

[J. Ketch]

Inspired by the 'who are the least Slavic Slavs' thread, rank these traditional Germanic-speakers by their Germanic admixture from least to most, in your opinion. Or at least the top 5 least Germanic admixed. I chose groups that are clearly most mixed with non-Germanic people.

Alsatians
Austrians
East Germans
Eastern/Lowland Scottish (traditional Scots speakers)
English
Flemish
South Dutch
South Germans
Swiss Germans
Western Germans (Rhinelanders)

You can include other minor Germanic groups in the ranking if you want: Afrikaners, Amish, PA Dutch, Danube/Banat Swabians, Volga Germans, Baltic Germans etc, but many of them I know little about.

[Blondie]

Hard to say.

1. Volga Germans (they looked very russian to me)
2. Zipser Germans
3. Danube Swabians
4. Transylvanian Saxons
5. East Germans
6. Austrians
7. Swiss Germans
8. English/South Germans
9. Alsatians, West Germans, South Dutch
10. Flemish


Eastern/Lowland Scottish (traditional Scots speakers)

They are not even germanic.

[Ayetooey]

From most to least.

West Germans.
South Dutch/Flemish.
South Germans.
Swiss.
East Germans from modern Germany.
English.
Austrians.
Scottish.
East Germans from east Prussia.

Some individual English groups like people from the north-west and deep north east England are probably similar to lowland scots in terms of Germanic admix.

[Borealis]

Hard to say.

1. Volga Germans (they looked very russian to me)
2. Zipser Germans
3. Danube Swabians
4. Transylvanian Saxons
5. East Germans
6. Austrians
7. Swiss Germans
8. English/South Germans
9. Alsatians, West Germans, South Dutch
10. Flemish



They are not even germanic.

How Volga germans look on avg

[J. Ketch]

They are not even germanic.
The red and orange areas are where Scots, a Germanic dialect derived from Old English, has been the language since the Middle Ages. Red since the Early Middle Ages.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/History_of_Scots_in_Scotland_and_Ulster.png

[Blondie]

How Volga germans look on avg

1-2 years ago someone posted many volga german here, and they looked russian to me.

[J. Ketch]

I made this model from K13 modern population averages yesterday, nowhere near conclusive but maybe a decent guide for the distances under 1.

Germanic = Norwegian
Gaulish = French
Slavic = Belarussian
Insular Celtic = Ulster Irish
Balkanic = Vlach
Baltic = Latvian
Finnic = Finnish
Roman = Italian


Target: Swiss_German
Distance: 0.6263% / 0.62630357 | ADC: 0.25x RC
39.5 Gaulish
34.1 Germanic
25.7 Balkanic
0.7 Slavic

Target: Austrian
Distance: 1.5112% / 1.51123941 | ADC: 0.25x RC
30.7 Germanic
26.1 Slavic
21.7 Gaulish
21.5 Balkanic

Target: English
Distance: 0.6694% / 0.66943464 | ADC: 0.25x RC
40.9 Germanic
35.6 Insular_Celtic
20.9 Gaulish
2.6 Roman

Target: English_Southeast
Distance: 0.7220% / 0.72200387 | ADC: 0.25x RC
44.6 Germanic
30.2 Insular_Celtic
19.7 Gaulish
5.5 Roman

Target: English_North
Distance: 0.6889% / 0.68887677 | ADC: 0.25x RC
43.1 Germanic
36.8 Insular_Celtic
20.1 Gaulish

Target: English_Southwest
Distance: 0.5590% / 0.55900465 | ADC: 0.25x RC
38.4 Insular_Celtic
35.4 Germanic
26.2 Gaulish

Target: English_Midlands
Distance: 0.7630% / 0.76295251 | ADC: 0.25x RC
41.5 Germanic
34.0 Insular_Celtic
21.9 Gaulish
2.6 Roman

Target: French_Alsace
Distance: 0.4318% / 0.43181889 | ADC: 0.25x RC
38.0 Gaulish
36.6 Germanic
23.0 Balkanic
2.4 Slavic

Target: Flemish
Distance: 1.0315% / 1.03153520 | ADC: 0.25x RC
44.2 Germanic
33.9 Gaulish
11.4 Insular_Celtic
10.5 Balkanic

Target: German_West
Distance: 0.6209% / 0.62087689 | ADC: 0.25x RC
42.8 Germanic
22.7 Insular_Celtic
21.1 Balkanic
13.4 Gaulish

Target: German_South
Distance: 0.7247% / 0.72466656 | ADC: 0.25x RC
41.9 Germanic
35.8 Gaulish
21.4 Balkanic
0.9 Slavic

Target: German_East
Distance: 1.7735% / 1.77354054 | ADC: 0.25x RC
45.8 Slavic
29.3 Gaulish
20.3 Germanic
4.6 Balkanic

Target: Dutch_South
Distance: 0.8818% / 0.88183135 | ADC: 0.25x RC
54.3 Germanic
39.9 Gaulish
4.8 Balkanic
1.0 Slavic

Target: Scottish_Northeast
Distance: 0.4289% / 0.42885593 | ADC: 0.25x RC
54.3 Insular_Celtic
33.0 Germanic
12.7 Gaulish

Target: Scottish_East
Distance: 0.4770% / 0.47699409 | ADC: 0.25x RC
64.8 Insular_Celtic
24.8 Germanic
7.3 Gaulish
3.1 Roman

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Target: Icelandic
Distance: 0.7233% / 0.72334122 | ADC: 0.25x RC
71.5 Germanic
27.3 Insular_Celtic
1.2 Balkanic

Target: Pennsylvania_Dutch
Distance: 1.2828% / 1.28281729 | ADC: 0.25x RC
50.1 Gaulish
32.9 Germanic
17.0 Balkanic

Target: Afrikaner
Distance: 2.2704% / 2.27039093 | ADC: 0.25x RC
55.1 Germanic
32.4 Gaulish
10.0 Balkanic
2.5 SSA

Target: Swedish
Distance: 1.9828% / 1.98275353 | ADC: 0.25x RC
82.2 Germanic
7.1 Finnic
6.7 Slavic
4.0 Gaulish

Target: Sweden_Götaland
Distance: 1.0973% / 1.09727988 | ADC: 0.25x RC
94.7 Germanic
4.0 Finnic
1.3 Gaulish

Target: Norway_South_Central
Distance: 1.1253% / 1.12531456 | ADC: 0.25x RC
97.7 Germanic
2.3 Finnic

Target: Denmark
Distance: 0.8947% / 0.89474045 | ADC: 0.25x RC
95.2 Germanic
2.9 Gaulish
1.9 Slavic

Target: German_Northwest
Distance: 1.1089% / 1.10885914 | ADC: 0.25x RC
80.4 Germanic
12.5 Gaulish
4.9 Balkanic
2.2 Slavic

Target: German
Distance: 0.6296% / 0.62956218 | ADC: 0.25x RC
51.0 Germanic
25.3 Gaulish
12.6 Slavic
11.1 Balkanic

Target: Dutch_North
Distance: 1.4412% / 1.44124984 | ADC: 0.25x RC
81.7 Germanic
8.5 Insular_Celtic
7.1 Gaulish
2.7 Roman

Target: Dutch_Central
Distance: 1.5821% / 1.58210411 | ADC: 0.25x RC
72.9 Germanic
12.7 Gaulish
10.6 Insular_Celtic
3.8 Roman

Target: Dutch
Distance: 1.2357% / 1.23570379 | ADC: 0.25x RC
71.3 Germanic
15.5 Gaulish
8.9 Insular_Celtic
4.3 Roman

Target: Sweden_Svealand_West
Distance: 1.4748% / 1.47483390 | ADC: 0.25x RC
90.2 Germanic
9.8 Finnic

Target: Sweden_Svealand_East
Distance: 1.1592% / 1.15918307 | ADC: 0.25x RC
75.1 Germanic
18.9 Finnic
6.0 Baltic

[Jana]

Volga Germans are western-southwestern Germans by origin, unmixed Volga Germans don't have any east European. Same applies to unmixed Transylvanian Saxons and Danube Swabians, these people are all SW/W German colonists in the east, they have nothing to do with eastern Germans let alone with eastern Europeans in vast majority of cases.

[Jana]

All of these are very havily Celtic admixed groups, not sure who is least Germanic but some subgroups of eastern Germans are most Germanic by far out of these.

Those from Mecklenburg can be modeled as 70% early Germanic and 30% proto Slavic (see wife and family of user Rothaer), and they artificially cluster with Swedes on K13/G25. North-eastern Germans will have lot of Germanic, because their German settler part was low German and did not have much Celtic unlike high German speakers/south Dutch etc.

Least Germanic maybe south Tyroleans and Austrians from Carinthia, Styria, Burgenland.

[Albannach]

The red and orange areas are where Scots, a Germanic dialect derived from Old English, has been the language since the Middle Ages. Red since the Early Middle Ages.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/History_of_Scots_in_Scotland_and_Ulster.png

What century is your map from? it's not accurate for early medieval or even medieval as it doesn't even have any Gaelic in Galloway.

11th century Scotland
https://i.imgur.com/Dms8yBs.png

15th century Scotland
https://i.imgur.com/xq5dYXZ.png

[Blondie]

Volga Germans are western-southwestern Germans by origin, unmixed Volga Germans don't have any east European. Same applies to unmixed Transylvanian Saxons and Danube Swabians, these people are all SW/W German colonists in the east, they have nothing to do with eastern Germans let alone with eastern Europeans in vast majority of cases.

But danube swabians identify themselves as eastern germans and majority of them have partly hungarian ancestry 1/4, half etc.

[J. Ketch]

The East German average on K13 (not NE Germans obviously) is modelled in 2-way as half Celto-Germanic West German, half Polish. Weird that they mixed twice, but how much Germanic do they realistically have?

[J. Ketch]

What century is your map from? it's not accurate for early medieval or even medieval as it doesn't even have any Gaelic in Galloway.

11th century Scotland
https://i.imgur.com/Dms8yBs.png

15th century Scotland
https://i.imgur.com/xq5dYXZ.png
The yellow which I didn't mention represents where Scots was spoken by the 20th century, orange by the 15th, red - Early Medieval. According to wiki anyway.

[Jana]

But danube swabians identify themselves as eastern germans and majority of them have partly hungarian ancestry 1/4, half etc.

Their origin is unrelated with east Germans except in tiny minority (Banat Swabians in minority descend from central Germans who have some Slavic, I have one such surname). You can't use example of people who stayed in communist Hungary or Romania as representative, most were expelled to west Germany and Austria and were unmixed. Most likely those that were not expelled were already mixed with eg. Hungarians and thus spared deportation. Rural Swabians married with their own people and kept to themselves.

You can see results of TA Volga German user yowasgeht in Germany and his family, they are pure west Germans.

[J. Ketch]

The East German average on K13 (not NE Germans obviously) is modelled in 2-way as half Celto-Germanic West German, half Polish. Weird that they mixed twice, but how much Germanic do they realistically have?
Closest 2-ways for them from the whole sheet

Distance to: German_East
0.61769895 54.60% Polish_Silesia + 45.40% Dutch_South
0.70622479 58.80% Polish_Silesia + 41.20% French_Northwest
0.75281217 43.60% Polish_Silesia + 56.40% German
0.86302742 49.00% Polish_Mazovia + 51.00% Flemish
0.96969296 49.20% Polish_Mazovia + 50.80% Belgian
0.99607653 48.40% Polish_Mazovia + 51.60% Dutch_South
1.00208508 55.00% Polish_Silesia + 45.00% Flemish
1.04182752 48.40% French_Northwest + 51.60% Ukrainian
1.04733230 37.80% Polish_Mazovia + 62.20% German
1.04982329 59.00% French_Northeast + 41.00% Lithuanian

Target: German_East
Distance: 0.2692% / 0.26915544 | R3P
47.3 Polish_Silesia
29.4 English_Southwest
23.3 Austrian

They appear to be a 3-way Celto-Slavo-Germanic mix, unlike those from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.

[Blondie]

Their origin is unrelated with east Germans except in tiny minority (Banat Swabians in minority descend from central Germans who have some Slavic, I have one such surname). You can't use example of people who stayed in communist Hungary or Romania as representative, most were expelled to west Germany and Austria and were unmixed. Most likely those that were not expelled were already mixed with eg. Hungarians and thus spared deportation. Rural Swabians married with their own people and kept to themselves.

You can see results of TA Volga German user yowasgeht in Germany and his family, they are pure west Germans.

No, not really, danube swabians are minority everywhere except some village, they are mixing with hungarians, i think transylvanian saxons do same. We are in the 21. century. I dont know any danube swabian who has no any hungarian ancestor.

[J. Ketch]

Have there been any pure South Tyrolean, Danube/Banat Swabian or Transylvania Saxon results posted? I can't remember.

I found a bunch of South Russia/Ukraine (Volga?) Germans on Gedmatch and they seem very Northern/Germanic honestly, maybe they were outliers.

[Dunai]

All of these are very havily Celtic admixed groups, not sure who is least Germanic but some subgroups of eastern Germans are most Germanic by far out of these.

Those from Mecklenburg can be modeled as 70% early Germanic and 30% proto Slavic (see wife and family of user Rothaer), and they artificially cluster with Swedes on K13/G25. North-eastern Germans will have lot of Germanic, because their German settler part was low German and did not have much Celtic unlike high German speakers/south Dutch etc.

Least Germanic maybe south Tyroleans and Austrians from Carinthia, Styria, Burgenland.

Technically that's how they should be however I seen some Transylvania Saxon results posted on this forum that looked pretty Balkanic, which means at certain point in time they mixed with Székelys and Romanians, their immediate neighbors. Same can be said about Danube Swabians, they also mixed with the Hungarians of the Pannonian Plain, so today they will plot basically as Austrians, who might be the least Germanic group genetically. We really need some representative averages for both Transylvanian Saxons and Danube Swabians, it's really hard to find unmixed individuals. In Germany there must live hundreds of thousands of such people, since during Communism they migrated there, especially leaving Romania.

[Dunai]

Closest 2-ways for them from the whole sheet

Distance to: German_East
0.61769895 54.60% Polish_Silesia + 45.40% Dutch_South
0.70622479 58.80% Polish_Silesia + 41.20% French_Northwest
0.75281217 43.60% Polish_Silesia + 56.40% German
0.86302742 49.00% Polish_Mazovia + 51.00% Flemish
0.96969296 49.20% Polish_Mazovia + 50.80% Belgian
0.99607653 48.40% Polish_Mazovia + 51.60% Dutch_South
1.00208508 55.00% Polish_Silesia + 45.00% Flemish
1.04182752 48.40% French_Northwest + 51.60% Ukrainian
1.04733230 37.80% Polish_Mazovia + 62.20% German
1.04982329 59.00% French_Northeast + 41.00% Lithuanian

Target: German_East
Distance: 0.2692% / 0.26915544 | R3P
47.3 Polish_Silesia
29.4 English_Southwest
23.3 Austrian

They appear to be a 3-way Celto-Slavo-Germanic mix, unlike those from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.

Yes, East Germans are such an oddity in a way, since they are pretty distant from any other population, only Austrians come somewhat close to them, but they also because they have this curious Alpine German-South/West Slavic ancestry.

[Peterski]

I found a bunch of South Russia/Ukraine (Volga?) Germans on Gedmatch and they seem very Northern/Germanic honestly

You probably found Mennonites from South Russia/Ukraine. Unmixed Volga Germans are more like South Germans than Northern Germanic.

[Jana]

Closest 2-ways for them from the whole sheet

Distance to: German_East
0.61769895 54.60% Polish_Silesia + 45.40% Dutch_South
0.70622479 58.80% Polish_Silesia + 41.20% French_Northwest
0.75281217 43.60% Polish_Silesia + 56.40% German
0.86302742 49.00% Polish_Mazovia + 51.00% Flemish
0.96969296 49.20% Polish_Mazovia + 50.80% Belgian
0.99607653 48.40% Polish_Mazovia + 51.60% Dutch_South
1.00208508 55.00% Polish_Silesia + 45.00% Flemish
1.04182752 48.40% French_Northwest + 51.60% Ukrainian
1.04733230 37.80% Polish_Mazovia + 62.20% German
1.04982329 59.00% French_Northeast + 41.00% Lithuanian

Target: German_East
Distance: 0.2692% / 0.26915544 | R3P
47.3 Polish_Silesia
29.4 English_Southwest
23.3 Austrian

They appear to be a 3-way Celto-Slavo-Germanic mix, unlike those from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.

Indeed, those are from Leipzig, Saxony. They are like Czechs with more Germanic input kind of.

[Blondie]

Have there been any pure South Tyrolean, Danube/Banat Swabian or Transylvania Saxon results posted? I can't remember.

Doesn't matter, because these pure result don't represent danube swabians in general. I would say an average danube swabian is 3/4 german and 1/4 hungarian.


Technically that's how they should be however I seen some Transylvania Saxon results posted on this forum that looked pretty Balkanic, which means at certain point in time they mixed with Székelys and Romanians, their immediate neighbors. Same can be said about Danube Swabians, they also mixed with the Hungarians of the Pannonian Plain, so today they will plot basically as Austrians, who might be the least Germanic group genetically. We really need some representative averages for both Transylvanian Saxons and Danube Swabians, it's really hard to find unmixed individuals. In Germany there must live hundreds of thousands of such people, since during Communism they migrated there, especially leaving Romania.

These who migrated to Germany are not danube swabians anymore. Danube swabian means german who live in Hungary, its a generic name for all hungarian german. If Teutone would move to Hungary to live he would be also danube swabian.

[Jana]

No, not really, danube swabians are minority everywhere except some village, they are mixing with hungarians, i think transylvanian saxons do same. We are in the 21. century. I dont know any danube swabian who has no any hungarian ancestor.

I think you misunderstood me. Vast majority of Danube Swabians are living in Germany and Austria today, what was left in Hungary are remnants.
What I am saying is that most Swabians pre-WW2 were not mixed, and among minority who stayed mixed people were likely overrepresented (people who went into cities and Magyarized etc)

[Jana]

Technically that's how they should be however I seen some Transylvania Saxon results posted on this forum that looked pretty Balkanic, which means at certain point in time they mixed with Székelys and Romanians, their immediate neighbors. Same can be said about Danube Swabians, they also mixed with the Hungarians of the Pannonian Plain, so today they will plot basically as Austrians, who might be the least Germanic group genetically. We really need some representative averages for both Transylvanian Saxons and Danube Swabians, it's really hard to find unmixed individuals. In Germany there must live hundreds of thousands of such people, since during Communism they migrated there, especially leaving Romania.

I think admixture with Romanians is only during communist times (among those who did not leave), here is unmixed Transylvanian Saxon result for example:

Distance to: Siebenbürger_Sachsen

3.33433652 French_Alsace
3.69991892 German_South
4.34027649 Swiss_German
5.04889097 German
5.05579865 Swiss_German2
5.56962297 Austrian
5.57752633 German_West
5.57816278 Pennsylvania_Dutch
6.12296497 French_Northeast
6.38660317 Afrikaner
6.53892958 Belgian
6.84306949 Flemish
7.00327780 Swiss_French
7.33641602 Dutch_South
9.09855483 French_Central
10.16387229 German_East
10.29752883 French_Northwest
10.56049241 English_Southeast
10.62474000 North_German
10.80175449 German_Northwest
11.14858287 Dutch
11.28957484 English_Midlands
11.41196302 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
11.43810736 English
11.56289324 French

Target: Siebenbürger_Sachsen
Distance: 1.2610% / 1.26097469 | R2P

89.8 French_Alsace
10.2 Russian_Smolensk

Very tiny EE input. And as you can see they aren't really Saxon either (Hungarian court chancellary gave them such name), but southwestern Germans.

[Kyp]

Doesn't matter, because these pure result don't represent danube swabians in general. I would say an average danube swabian is 3/4 german and 1/4 hungarian.



These who migrated to Germany are not danube swabians anymore. Danube swabian means german who live in Hungary, its a generic name for all hungarian german. If Teutone would move to Hungary to live he would be also danube swabian.

I doubt he would be Danube Swabian tbh, wouldn't he just be a German in Hungary?

Doesn't Danube Swabian refer to a specific group of migrators? Or at least from a specific timeframe?

[rothaer]

No, not really, danube swabians are minority everywhere except some village, they are mixing with hungarians, i think transylvanian saxons do same. We are in the 21. century. I dont know any danube swabian who has no any hungarian ancestor.

Yes, but only because you are referring to these that stayed in Hungary. Most Danube Swabians are in Germany and do mix there as well, but with other Germans.

As for you saying Volga Germans look Russian: This will have a resembling explanation. You will refer to such ones that come today and claim they are Volga Germans. These are regularly the least German ones out of the Volga Germans. The same is applicable to Germans from Poland or people claiming they are Germans today. I'ts an expressed non-German selection that lives in Poland today. They were spared from expulsion because they were considered autochtonic Slavs by the Poles (and most of them actually were ethnic Poles in 1907).

(As for the ethnicity of Germans in Poland that has been thoroughly examined in all aspects in 1939-1945. These who where ethinc Germans got Deutsche Volksliste (DVL) section 1 and 2 and blue ID cards. These who got DVL section 3 (and green ID cards) could be misunderstood as some Germans today, as they had an ID card with the title "Deutsche Volksliste", but in fact they were never ethnic Germans, not even in the German-friendly view of the national socialist government!)

So what you are referring to as "Danube Swabians" and "Volga Germans" are just the tragic remnants of these. 95% of the real ones you find in Germany (Austria and FRG).

[rothaer]

Their origin is unrelated with east Germans except in tiny minority (Banat Swabians in minority descend from central Germans who have some Slavic, I have one such surname). You can't use example of people who stayed in communist Hungary or Romania as representative, most were expelled to west Germany and Austria and were unmixed. Most likely those that were not expelled were already mixed with eg. Hungarians and thus spared deportation. Rural Swabians married with their own people and kept to themselves.

You can see results of TA Volga German user yowasgeht in Germany and his family, they are pure west Germans.

That is spot on.

[rothaer]

I think you misunderstood me. Vast majority of Danube Swabians are living in Germany and Austria today, what was left in Hungary are remnants.
What I am saying is that most Swabians pre-WW2 were not mixed, and among minority who stayed mixed people were likely overrepresented (people who went into cities and Magyarized etc)

Even more spot on. Must have crossed with my comment.

[rothaer]

I doubt he would be Danube Swabian tbh, wouldn't he just be a German in Hungary?

Doesn't Danube Swabian refer to a specific group of migrators? Or at least from a specific timeframe?

Yes.

[Dunai]

I think admixture with Romanians is only during communist times (among those who did not leave), here is unmixed Transylvanian Saxon result for example:

Distance to: Siebenbürger_Sachsen

3.33433652 French_Alsace
3.69991892 German_South
4.34027649 Swiss_German
5.04889097 German
5.05579865 Swiss_German2
5.56962297 Austrian
5.57752633 German_West
5.57816278 Pennsylvania_Dutch
6.12296497 French_Northeast
6.38660317 Afrikaner
6.53892958 Belgian
6.84306949 Flemish
7.00327780 Swiss_French
7.33641602 Dutch_South
9.09855483 French_Central
10.16387229 German_East
10.29752883 French_Northwest
10.56049241 English_Southeast
10.62474000 North_German
10.80175449 German_Northwest
11.14858287 Dutch
11.28957484 English_Midlands
11.41196302 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
11.43810736 English
11.56289324 French

Target: Siebenbürger_Sachsen
Distance: 1.2610% / 1.26097469 | R2P

89.8 French_Alsace
10.2 Russian_Smolensk

Very tiny EE input. And as you can see they aren't really Saxon either (Hungarian court chancellary gave them such name), but southwestern Germans.

It would be good to see averages for these groups, because it's very difficult to draw conclusions based on just a few samples. I have a feeling that both Transylvanian Saxons and Danube Swabians mixed with the locals not only in the past century but also earlier, however it remains only a speculation when we don't have conclusive genetic data about it.

[rothaer]

(...) These who migrated to Germany are not danube swabians anymore. (...) If Teutone would move to Hungary to live he would be also danube swabian.

Blondie, come on! :rolleyes:

I appreciate your affection (or even identity) with Danube Swabians, but tell these (mostly pure) people that they are not anymore Danube Swabians: http://www.donauschwaben-usa.org/

[Peterski]

The least Germanic of East Germans could be the ones who lived in easternmost areas - West Prussia, Provinz Posen, Upper Silesia, easternmost part of Pommern, part of Lower Silesia to the east of the Odra River, also in this part of East Prussia which is today Kaliningrad Oblast.

Probably also Vilamovians, but who knows.

[Dunai]

Doesn't matter, because these pure result don't represent danube swabians in general. I would say an average danube swabian is 3/4 german and 1/4 hungarian.



These who migrated to Germany are not danube swabians anymore. Danube swabian means german who live in Hungary, its a generic name for all hungarian german. If Teutone would move to Hungary to live he would be also danube swabian.

I'm so surprised that you yourself as someone who identities as one, would dismiss the concept of a particular Danube Swabian cultural identity. Over the 2-300 hundreds of years of their presence in Historic Hungary these Germans developed their own customs and even dialect that clearly makes them unique among Germans. For the very rare instances that I heard her speak German, but I remember my grandmother speaking German is such a weird way, that didn't resemble the Hochdeutsch of Germany, they also adopted many Hungarian words.

[Jana]

here are results from one Banat Swabian and one German from west Hungary.

Distance to: Banat_Swabian

3.97638026 French_Alsace
4.32164321 Swiss_German
4.55745543 German_South
5.00034999 Swiss_German2
5.76450345 Swiss_French
6.01103153 Austrian
6.03454224 Pennsylvania_Dutch
7.19339280 German
7.21381314 French_Northeast
7.50082662 German_West
8.29904814 Belgian
8.57696333 Afrikaner
8.62542753 Flemish
9.14249966 French_Central
9.47771069 Dutch_South
10.79162175 Hungarian_Transdanubia+Budapest
10.86235242 German_East
11.26581555 Italian_Aosta_Valley
11.39432754 Hungarian
11.51981337 French
11.57727515 Hungarian_Transylvania+Székely
11.78051782 Slovenian
12.24564821 French_Northwest
12.33638521 Csángó-Ceangău
12.37903066 Hungarian_Alföld

Target: Banat_Swabian
Distance: 1.4591% / 1.45911576 | ADC: 0.25x RC

57.3 German_South
23.8 Swiss_French
18.9 Poland_Lemko

Distance to: German_West_Hungary

4.86192349 German_South
5.18110992 French_Alsace
5.61185353 German_West
5.66309986 Swiss_German
5.89302978 Swiss_German2
6.32661047 Pennsylvania_Dutch
6.69603614 Belgian
6.77867244 French_Northeast
6.83227634 Afrikaner
7.11022503 Flemish
7.12961430 German
8.27992150 Dutch_South
8.64925430 Swiss_French
8.86658897 Austrian
10.18990677 French_Central
10.33155361 North_German
10.48755930 English_Southeast
10.74244851 French_Northwest
11.03502605 German_Northwest
11.10862728 Dutch
11.29431716 English_Midlands
11.41938702 English
11.68193477 Dutch_Central
11.87512105 English_Southwest
11.98450249 Cornish

Target: German_West_Hungary
Distance: 2.2681% / 2.26810420 | ADC: 0.5x RC

86.1 German_West
6.5 Austrian
4.8 Lebanese_Druze
2.6 Yemenite_Jewish

First one has some tiny bit local admixture (Hungarian presumably), just like Transylvanian Saxon, but it's really minor, other is maybe little bit Jewish, not sure.
But in case of Banat Swabian it does not even need to be any local input as I said, Banat Swabians partly are central Germans (ex DDR), so this tiny Slavic does not need to be local even.

[Peterski]

but tell these (mostly pure) people that they are not anymore Danube Swabians: http://www.donauschwaben-usa.org/

They are now Mississippi Swabians.

www.mississippischwaben-usa.org

[Jana]

I also don't agree with Blondie with all due respect that some German who now comes to Hungary is suddenly Danube Swabian. They are particular group.
Not even all Germans from historical Hungary were Danube Swabian.

[rothaer]

It would be good to see averages for these groups, because it's very difficult to draw conclusions based on just a few samples. I have a feeling that both Transylvanian Saxons and Danube Swabians mixed with the locals not only in the past century but also earlier, however it remains only a speculation when we don't have conclusive genetic data about it.

I don't have any data that I can claim to be representative. But I can tell that I saw a 23andMe result for a Transsylvanian Saxon that showed just 7% or less EE at 23andMe. (I as an indigenous Eastern German get 50.7% EE!) If they in general would have mixed more with Romanians, there would not be possible a Transsylvanian Saxon with only 7% EE. Consider that they have been there for over 700 years!

[Jana]

I don't have any data that I can claim to be representative. But I can tell that I saw a 23andMe result for a Transsylvanian Saxon that showed just 7% or less EE at 23andMe. (I as an indigenous Eastern German get 50.7% EE!) If they in general would have mixed more with Romanians, there would not be possible a Transsylvanian Saxon with only 7% EE. Consider that they have been there for over 700 years!

Did he score any Balkan? EE is not really marker of Romanian admixture on 23andme, it's more indicative of minor Hungarian input which would make lot more sense, due to religious and social class reasons.
But indeed 7% EE after 700 years there is incredibly low, practically nothing and proves they kept to themselves.

[Peterski]

I as an indigenous Eastern German get 50.7% EE!

Do you get any countries & regions assigned to your EE?

[Dunai]

"The Danube Swabian language is only nominally Swabian (Schwowisch, as it was referred to locally). In reality, it contains elements or many dialects of the original German settlers, mainly Swabian, Franconian, Bavarian, Pfälzisch, Alsatian, and Alemannic, as well as Austro-Hungarian administrative and military jargon."

[rothaer]

The least Germanic of East Germans could be the ones who lived in easternmost areas - West Prussia, Provinz Posen, Upper Silesia, easternmost part of Pommern, part of Lower Silesia to the east of the Odra River, also in this part of East Prussia which is today Kaliningrad Oblast.

Probably also Vilamovians, but who knows.

You have completely untouched "Poles" among the Upper Siliesians imo.

I was somewhat in an argument with a German nationalist from there (myself being a German nationalist), that completely rejected the applicability of genetic results showing that he and his family had kind of 93% EE at 23andMe (and 2% French & German). Which is above the Polish mean for EE even? However, I know exactly how these folks voted and identified still in 1907. :)

[Dunai]

I don't have any data that I can claim to be representative. But I can tell that I saw a 23andMe result for a Transsylvanian Saxon that showed just 7% or less EE at 23andMe. (I as an indigenous Eastern German get 50.7% EE!) If they in general would have mixed more with Romanians, there would not be possible a Transsylvanian Saxon with only 7% EE. Consider that they have been there for over 700 years!

The Saxons of Transylvania also mixed with Székelys as there was a pretty big overlap of territory, at one point belonging to Székelys, the next to Transylvanian Saxons, but also in reverse this happened.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Sz%C3%A9kely_Land.PNG/1024px-Sz%C3%A9kely_Land.PNG

[Jana]

It looks like in case of Hungary, there was far more admixture of German DNA into Hungarian gene pool than the opposite. Lot of Hungarians have significant German input, but Hungarian input in pre-WW2 Hungarian Germans seems very minor that it's even not relevant. That can be explained by Hungarians being dominant ethnic group in the Panonnian Basin so they absorbed all kind of minorities, while those who identified as German kept to themselves.

[Dunai]

It looks like in case of Hungary, there was far more admixture of German DNA into Hungarian gene pool than the opposite. Lot of Hungarians have significant German input, but Hungarian input in pre-WW2 Hungarian Germans seems very minor that it's even not relevant. That can be explained by Hungarians being dominant ethnic group in the Panonnian Basin so they absorbed all kind of minorities, while those who identified as German kept to themselves.

It can be explained by the fact that "when you went Hungarian, you didn't go back", meaning, when a German married a Hungarian they basically became culturally Hungarians, also their children, who didn't really learn German anymore. That's how Budapest, once a predominantly German-speaking city in the 19th century only in a few decades became overwhelmingly Hungarian-speaking.

[Jana]

It can be explained by the fact that "when you went Hungarian, you didn't go back", meaning, when a German married a Hungarian they basically became culturally Hungarians, also their children, who didn't really learn German anymore.

Yes, makes sense.

[rothaer]

Do you get any countries & regions assigned to your EE?

Yeah, but I consider this tool of 23andMe rather poor. I can see this by my stunning wrong assignments within Germany (showing Bavaria as #1 etc.).

I get this for EE:

https://i.imgur.com/4xu99e4.jpg

Former German regions are always excluded and in light colours in Poland as I could experience, so there is always just Poland proper available. My real little Polish connection with 6.25% with Lodz area isn't even particularly higlighted. The problem for 23andMe regarding Eastern Germans is that they assign EE to them without regarding their areas being EE. This means it's impossible for an Eastern German to get his applicable ancestry area shown at 23andMe. All do get some areas in Poland as weak matches but not even the closest to German area ones like Greater Poland and Western Prussia.

[Peterski]

I have another example of Transylvanian Saxon GEDmatch results, check:

Eurogenes K13:

North_Atlantic 39.60 Pct
Baltic 25.27 Pct
West_Med 16.14 Pct
West_Asian 6.41 Pct
East_Med 8.05 Pct
Red_Sea 1.75 Pct
South_Asian 0.84 Pct
East_Asian 0.85 Pct
Siberian 0.67 Pct
Amerindian 0.09 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.29 Pct

Eurogenes K15:

Population
North_Sea 27.45 Pct
Atlantic 24.09 Pct
Baltic 14.05 Pct
Eastern_Euro 9.36 Pct
West_Med 11.78 Pct
West_Asian 4.43 Pct
East_Med 5.89 Pct
Red_Sea 1.42 Pct
South_Asian 0.59 Pct
Southeast_Asian 0.59 Pct
Siberian 0.16 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.19 Pct

And here is an example of Banat Swabian result, check:

Eurogenes K13:

Population
North_Atlantic 38.44 Pct
Baltic 25.34 Pct
West_Med 17.36 Pct
West_Asian 6.95 Pct
East_Med 9.84 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 0.33 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.56 Pct
Amerindian 1.05 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.13 Pct

Eurogenes K15:

Population
North_Sea 26.46 Pct
Atlantic 24.65 Pct
Baltic 12.03 Pct
Eastern_Euro 10.96 Pct
West_Med 13.01 Pct
West_Asian 5.43 Pct
East_Med 6.71 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.76 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -


You have completely untouched "Poles" among the Upper Siliesians imo.

What about German-speakers as of ca. 1830 for example? I've seen census results for every county of Upper Silesia since 1828 and there were Germans in all counties already at that time (if you go back to pre-1740 then maybe there were German-free areas at that time).


However, I know exactly how these folks voted and identified still in 1907.

What exactly is the importance of year 1907 that you use it so often?

[Jana]

I have another example of Transylvanian Saxon GEDmatch results, check:

Eurogenes K13:

North_Atlantic 39.60 Pct
Baltic 25.27 Pct
West_Med 16.14 Pct
West_Asian 6.41 Pct
East_Med 8.05 Pct
Red_Sea 1.75 Pct
South_Asian 0.84 Pct
East_Asian 0.85 Pct
Siberian 0.67 Pct
Amerindian 0.09 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.29 Pct

Eurogenes K15:

Population
North_Sea 27.45 Pct
Atlantic 24.09 Pct
Baltic 14.05 Pct
Eastern_Euro 9.36 Pct
West_Med 11.78 Pct
West_Asian 4.43 Pct
East_Med 5.89 Pct
Red_Sea 1.42 Pct
South_Asian 0.59 Pct
Southeast_Asian 0.59 Pct
Siberian 0.16 Pct
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.19 Pct

And here is an example of Banat Swabian result:

Eurogenes K13:

Population
North_Atlantic 38.44 Pct
Baltic 25.34 Pct
West_Med 17.36 Pct
West_Asian 6.95 Pct
East_Med 9.84 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 0.33 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.56 Pct
Amerindian 1.05 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.13 Pct

Eurogenes K15:

Population
North_Sea 26.46 Pct
Atlantic 24.65 Pct
Baltic 12.03 Pct
Eastern_Euro 10.96 Pct
West_Med 13.01 Pct
West_Asian 5.43 Pct
East_Med 6.71 Pct
Red_Sea -
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.76 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Those are same that I posted :D

[rothaer]

Did he score any Balkan? EE is not really marker of Romanian admixture on 23andme, it's more indicative of minor Hungarian input which would make lot more sense, due to religious and social class reasons.
But indeed 7% EE after 700 years there is incredibly low, practically nothing and proves they kept to themselves.

I unfortunately don't recall "Greece & Balkan" figures. I was focussed on EE, not being aware at that time that "G & B" also contains actual EE. But I guess I would have noticed notable "G & B" if it would have shown up.

[Peterski]

Those are same that I posted :D

He does seem mixed with the locals:

K13 Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.3% South_Dutch + 24.7% Moldavian @ 1.12

K15 Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 67.5% South_Dutch + 32.5% Hungarian @ 1.7

=====

Banat Swabian K15:

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 71.5% South_Dutch + 28.5% Serbian @ 2.53

[Jana]

He does seem mixed with the locals:

K13 Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.3% South_Dutch + 24.7% Moldavian @ 1.12

K15 Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 67.5% South_Dutch + 32.5% Hungarian @ 1.7

=====

Banat Swabian K15:

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 71.5% South_Dutch + 28.5% Serbian @ 2.53

I already posted his breakdown (very minor EE input), so I don't see your point. K15 is trash for eastern Europeans.

Plus you are using extremely outdated Oracle which pumped "eastern" input.
Neither was their German side closest to south Dutch. It was more southern.

[rothaer]

What exactly is the importance of year 1907 that you use it so often?

There were elections to the Reichstag where the Polish national party in these areas got majority of votes.


What about German-speakers as of ca. 1830 for example? I've seen census results for every county of Upper Silesia since 1828 and there were Germans in all counties already at that time (if you go back to pre-1740 then maybe there were German-free areas at that time).

A good question. I can just refer to Upper Silesian DNA test results, that got known to me. Maybe these German speakers were Eastern Germans and hence 50% EE anyhow. And/or they were protestant and did not mix with the Poles.

The Upper Silesian German nationalist I refrerred to in turn referred to numerous medieval German settlements in these ethnic Polish parts of Upper Silesia. And these settlements actually were notable. But the Hussitic wars seeem to have stroken the Germans hard. Germans seem to have withdrawn and consolidated in Lower Silesia at that time. Both from cities and the rural area. Lower Silesia itself had problems with covering all agrigable land with Germans due to the Hussitic wars and made good offers in that aspect, which have attracted a lot of rural German settlers from Upper Silesia. So the Hussitic wars seem to have widely de-Germanised Upper Silesia (except the known old pure German parts of it like Neiße, Neustadt etc.).

[Jana]

Regarding Banat Swabians:


A small group can be traced to Middle Germany.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banat_Swabians

Middle Germany is modern day east Germany. I have some ancestry from Banat, and one of German surnames in my family tree peaks in upper Saxony, for example.
Thus some Slavic is to be expected. However they are like all Germans in former Hungary overwhelmingly SW Germans.

[rothaer]

(...)

The mentioned Upper Silesian got this LM Genetics similarity map (cf. the contrast to Lower Silesia and arbitrary other East German areas!):

https://i.imgur.com/tnGDp17.jpg

[Peterski]

The mentioned Upper Silesian got this LM Genetics similarity map:

https://i.imgur.com/tnGDp17.jpg

You must be joking, and this is what Lukasz is using as DE_Oberschlesien? LOL

[rothaer]

You must be joking, and this is what Lukasz is using as DE_Oberschlesien? LOL

If you think about it, it doesn't even matter what Lukasz uses for Upper Silesia. This guy independently of that gets all these further similarities seen on the map.

(Lukasz may even have used ethnic Poles for Upper Silesia both from what was interwar Poland and German Empire. But as I said, you can mentally erase the testee's result for Upper Silesia and watch all the remaing ones.)

[Blondie]

The danube swabian assimilation started in the 19. century, when the magyarization happened. Before that we can talk about "pure" danube swabians, but after that definitely not, and we are talking about modern populations. My mom came from a danube swabian village near Budapest, and he is half german half hungarian, i visit my grandmother too very often and local danube swabians are mixing with hungarians as well.
Who were the original danube swabians? Catholic germans from Austria, Bavaria, Baden-Württemberg, Rheinland etc who migrated to central parts of Hungary, it was just a generic name for these various germans, used by hungarians. Teutone as catholic german, would be danube swabian here because danube swabians are descedants of catholic germans who migrated here and Teutone would be in this category. And no, there is no time limit of this german migration, because its continuous until the present day:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG7x7IG3i5Y

After a while they will identify themselves as danube swabians (just like in the past) because everyone use this word for local germans. And nobody will ask that "when you family came to Hungary? Not the 18-19. century? Hmm sorry then you are not danube swabian", nobody will say that. My father was 100% bavarian, he was born in Germany and everyone called him danube swabian in Budapest, later he started to identify himself danube swabian. My majority german ancestry is bavarian, so i can't be danube swabian because of it or my father side is a new generation german migrant? Bullshit, i'm danube swabian as well, because this ethnicity is different from others, because we were always descedants of verious german migrants, and we were always mixed with many different german roots. An average danube swabian is 1/4 austrian, 1/4 bavarian, 1/4 other german and 1/4 hungarian. And nobody said that every german was danube swabian in the historical Hungary, but if someone migrated to the central parts of Hungary, they became danube swabian.
Someone mentioned folk songs, danube swabian dialect etc, do you guys know how many danube swabian can speak the local german accent? NOBODY, except some 70-80 years old people. I also know just some word, thats all. Everyone use Hochdeutsch. So these things are not conditions to being danube swabian. As i said 99% of danube swabians can't speak the local dialect, hard to belive that danube swabians from Germany or USA can speak it or they feel any togetherness with this land. And im not talking about these 80 years old grannies and grandfathers who live in these countries and remember for Hungary, but the rest of them has no any such identity, but they were assimilated into the local german community.
And i don't feel mysef as "tragic remnant", its insult. We are the ones who keep the german culture in Hungary, we eat the stifolder, drink the günzer wines, we are going on a trip in Pilisch, Balaton etc. These "real" (lol) danube swabians from Germany has no idea about these things, except some older. I think they are the tragic remnants, not us.

[rothaer]

It can be explained by the fact that "when you went Hungarian, you didn't go back", meaning, when a German married a Hungarian they basically became culturally Hungarians, also their children, who didn't really learn German anymore. That's how Budapest, once a predominantly German-speaking city in the 19th century only in a few decades became overwhelmingly Hungarian-speaking.

Kind of "Once you go black, you never come back" (Quote from the mulatto-attracted German tennis player Boris Becker)? :)

But yes, there was a big divergence in ethnic policies between the Austrian and the Hungarain parts of the Empire. The Hungarians Magyarized others intensely.

[Jana]

^^^I can say how it was with Danube Swabians in Slavonia (eastern Croatia).

They lived in separate, fully German villages, and they did not mix either with Croats, neither with Slovaks or Hungarians, let alone Serbs or Rusyns. Despite of being Catholic. They were very closed rural community and many never even learned Croatian language. However, there were many Germans (some children or grandchildren of these Danube Swabian settlers) who went into bigger cities like Osijek (Esseg) or Zagreb (Agram) and those were assimilated, mixed with Croats, Magyars, Czechs etc.

Rural Swabians were even kind of ghettoized population, they lived with other Germans, spoke German and kept to themselves. During WW2 many of them joined the SS and they felt completely German.

After the war many were murdered in concentration camps and some fled, and those who survived were deported to Austria and west Germany.
It affected rural Swabians the most, entire villages were emptied, while urban Swabians who were often much more mixed and assimilated remained. Most of German ancestry in eastern Europeans is from such mixed people while those "real" and unmixed Germans left or were expelled. This is only way to explain why are they still heavily west German genetically today, after centuries in foreign lands.

In Hungary assimilation was greater, but still what I described applies. Rural Swabians were pretty much Germans until 1945, even politically. It's city and townsfolk people who mixed and assimilated, villagers not really.
Representatives of Transylvanian Saxons also supported unification of Transylvania with Romania against Hungarian interests.

During WW2 Banat was directly occupied by Germany and did not re-joined to Hungary. I assume local Germans preferred it so.

[rothaer]

^^^I can say how it was with Danube Swabians in Slavonia (eastern Croatia).

They lived in separate, fully German villages, and they did not mix either with Croats, neither with Slovaks or Hungarians, let alone Serbs or Rusyns. Despite of being Catholic. They were very closed rural community and many never even learned Croatian language. However, there were many Germans (some children or grandchildren of these Danube Swabian settlers) who went into bigger cities like Osijek (Esseg) or Zagreb (Agram) and those were assimilated, mixed with Croats, Magyars, Czechs etc.

Rural Swabians were even kind of ghettoized population, they lived with other Germans, spoke German and kept to themselves. During WW2 many of them joined the SS and they felt completely German.

After the war many were murdered in concentration camps and some fled, and those who survived were deported to Austria and west Germany.
It affected rural Swabians the most, entire villages were emptied, while urban Swabians who were often much more mixed and assimilated remained. Most of German ancestry in eastern Europeans is from such mixed people while those "real" and unmixed Germans left or were expelled. This is only way to explain why are they still heavily west German genetically today, after centuries in foreign lands.

In Hungary assimilation was greater, but still what I described applies. Rural Swabians were pretty much Germans until 1945, even politically. It's city and townsfolk people who mixed and assimilated, villagers not really.
Representatives of Transylvanian Saxons also supported unification of Transylvania with Romania against Hungarian interests.

During WW2 Banat was directly occupied by Germany and did not re-joined to Hungary. I assume local Germans preferred it so.

A valuable hint. I was never aware of that and it at a first glance seems surprising that this part was not given to befriended Hungary while more far-fetched areas were. And of course it can not have been in favour of this hardly existent "Serbia". This map actually depics some kind of German self government in the Banat:

https://i.imgur.com/DIpnqR2.png

[Jana]

^^^^ Yes, Hungary annexed Bacska region where lived large Hungarian population. But both Banat and Bascka were part of pre-Trianon Hungary. It's interesting how Banat was de facto under local German self rule.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banat_(1941%E2%80%931944)


The local German population agitated for the German government to establish a large German state in the Danube and Tisza valleys, expressing annoyance that the Bačka and Syrmia regions in the west were awarded to Hungary and Croatia respectively after the collapse of Yugoslavia.

The Banat Germans subsequently used every means at their disposal to strengthen their position compared to that of other nationalities, and to foster the development of German national feeling through the establishment of youth and adult organizations, and setting up its own school system.

That does not seem like assimilated population to me.

[Jana]

Half Transylvanian Saxon, half from Hessen (friend of Croatian user Ljubic who lives in Germany) No traces of EE admixture.


Hessen+Transylvania,45.34,23.43,14.84,4.26,6.44,2. 35,0.39,0.31,0.96,0.77,0.6,0.3,0

Distance to: Hesse+Transylvania

1.98360782 Dutch_South
2.48927700 Flemish
2.49717841 Belgian
3.53345440 German_West
3.62723035 Afrikaner
4.60154322 French_Northwest
4.81070681 English_Southeast
5.14112828 French_Northeast
5.17198221 German
5.49953634 German_South
5.55874086 English_Midlands
5.65795016 English
5.68176029 Dutch
5.89353035 English_Southwest
6.05508051 Pennsylvania_Dutch
6.12103749 Cornish
6.36000000 Dutch_Central
6.51582689 German_Northwest
6.52882072 French_Alsace
6.60467259 English_North
7.15453003 Welsh
7.18508177 Swiss_German2
7.49580549 Swiss_German
7.51538422 North_German
7.89150176 Orcadian

Target: Hesse+Transylvania
Distance: 1.6423% / 1.64234933 | R2P

51.3 Pennsylvania_Dutch
48.7 Dutch_Central

[rothaer]

The danube swabian assimilation started in the 19. century, when the magyarization happened. Before that we can talk about "pure" danube swabians, but after that definitely not, and we are talking about modern populations. My mom came from a danube swabian village near Budapest, and he is half german half hungarian, i visit my grandmother too very often and local danube swabians are mixing with hungarians as well.
Who were the original danube swabians? Catholic germans from Austria, Bavaria, Baden-Württemberg, Rheinland etc who migrated to central parts of Hungary, it was just a generic name for these various germans, used by hungarians. Teutone as catholic german, would be danube swabian here because danube swabians are descedants of catholic germans who migrated here and Teutone would be in this category. And no, there is no time limit of this german migration, because its continuous until the present day:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG7x7IG3i5Y

After a while they will identify themselves as danube swabians (just like in the past) because everyone use this word for local germans. And nobody will ask that "when you family came to Hungary? Not the 18-19. century? Hmm sorry then you are not danube swabian", nobody will say that. My father was 100% bavarian, he was born in Germany and everyone called him danube swabian in Budapest, later he started to identify himself danube swabian. My majority german ancestry is bavarian, so i can't be danube swabian because of it or my father side is a new generation german migrant? Bullshit, i'm danube swabian as well, because this ethnicity is different from others, because we were always descedants of verious german migrants, and we were always mixed with many different german roots. An average danube swabian is 1/4 austrian, 1/4 bavarian, 1/4 other german and 1/4 hungarian. And nobody said that every german was danube swabian in the historical Hungary, but if someone migrated to the central parts of Hungary, they became danube swabian.
Someone mentioned folk songs, danube swabian dialect etc, do you guys know how many danube swabian can speak the local german accent? NOBODY, except some 70-80 years old people. I also know just some word, thats all. Everyone use Hochdeutsch. So these things are not conditions to being danube swabian. As i said 99% of danube swabians can't speak the local dialect, hard to belive that danube swabians from Germany or USA can speak it or they feel any togetherness with this land. And im not talking about these 80 years old grannies and grandfathers who live in these countries and remember for Hungary, but the rest of them has no any such identity, but they were assimilated into the local german community.
And i don't feel mysef as "tragic remnant", its insult. We are the ones who keep the german culture in Hungary, we eat the stifolder, drink the günzer wines, we are going on a trip in Pilisch, Balaton etc. These "real" (lol) danube swabians from Germany has no idea about these things, except some older. I think they are the tragic remnants, not us.

Thanks for much info. No insult intended. I agree that these "diaspora" Donau Swabians are a tragic remnant and they will not remain with that identity, as well as they did not have it, before they once went to Hungary.

But I think you will agree on that your background with the German "refresh" from Bavaria making you have 3/4 German ancestry in that generation is not representative. It's more like with your mother with 1/2 and then with 1/4 in the next generation for many and that's it.

On the search for "real" Danube Swabians I allow myself to introduce new competitors for that title: Just travel up the Danube till the proximity of it's spring. There you are in Swabia and are surrounded by real Danube Swabians! :)

Fun fact: A notable proportion of them came also from the Danube in what is today Hungary... As Quads or whatever other Suebic (it's the same word als Swabians) tribes. (Some of them went on and founded that Suebic kingdom at Braga (in NW Iberia)).

[Voskos]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?355469-Germanic-Y-DNA-R-S21-in-Europe&p=7356506#post7356506

[Blondie]

Thanks for much info. No insult intended. I agree that these "diaspora" Donau Swabians are a tragic remnant and they will not remain with that identity, as well as they did not have it, before they once went to Hungary.

But I think you will agree on that your background with the German "refresh" from Bavaria making you have 3/4 German ancestry in that generation is not representative. It's more like with your mother with 1/2 and then with 1/4 in the next generation for many and that's it.

On the search for "real" Danube Swabians I allow myself to introduce new competitors for that title: Just travel up the Danube till the proximity of it's spring. There you are in Swabia and are surrounded by real Danube Swabians! :)

Fun fact: A notable proportion of them came also from the Danube in what is today Hungary... As Quads or whatever other Suebic (it's the same word als Swabians) tribes. (Some of them went on and founded that Suebic kingdom at Braga (in NW Iberia)).

I didn't say my background is representative for danube swabians, but it's true that modern danube swabians are 3/4 german (with various german ancestry) + 1/4 hungarian. The amount of this various german ancestry is irrelevant because danube swabians have always been mixed germans, so if a danube swabian has 3/4 bavarian ancestry it doesn't make him more or less danube swabian if other is 3/4 austrian and they are not less danube swabian if someone is 1/3 bavarian + 1/3 austrian + 1/3 swabian, doesn't matter.
I don't want to go to Swabia, because they are not danube swabians and most danube swabians are not even swabian in the reality, its an unique german ethnicity. Only the name is similar, but swabians and danube swabians are two different german subgroup. I don't feel any closer commonship with them. Average danube swabian feel themselves closest to east germans from DDR because of common post soviet past.

[Faklon]

Richmonbread
Generic Anglo-Irish
Catholic Balkaner
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Septentrion
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Centurion

[rothaer]

(...) I don't want to go to Swabia, because they are not danube swabians and most danube swabians are not even swabian in the reality, its an unique german ethnicity. Only the name is similar, but (...)

My statement

"On the search for "real" Danube Swabians I allow myself to introduce new competitors for that title: Just travel up the Danube till the proximity of it's spring. There you are in Swabia and are surrounded by real Danube Swabians! :) "

was a joke, Blondie.

[Peterski]

Yeah, but I consider this tool of 23andMe rather poor. I can see this by my stunning wrong assignments within Germany (showing Bavaria as #1 etc.).

I get this for EE:

https://i.imgur.com/4xu99e4.jpg

Former German regions are always excluded and in light colours in Poland as I could experience, (...)

^^^
Apparently not always, because I score Warmian-Masurian Voivodeship (which was part of East Prussia before WW2).

As for my French&German part - I also have Bavaria as #1.