I2-Y3120 discovered in a sample from Croatia from 1500-1000 BCE

[Varda]

1500-1000 BCE Croatia_MBA_LBA Bezdanjača Cave Croatia I-Y3120 I2a1a2b1a1 HV0a1a http://www.forum.hr/showpost.php?p=90187875&postcount=23

Sample is from cave Brzdanjača near Vrhovine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrhovine

Unban Bosniensis! :thumb001:

[Jana]

No, it is mislabeled migration era sample with Balto-Slavic and Germanic autosomal admixture unrelated to actual Illyrians in the study.

Target: Croatia_"MBA_LBA"
Distance: 1.5181% / 0.01518087 | ADC: 0.25x RC

32.6 KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro [Slavo-Asian Mix]
24.0 BGR_Beli_Breyag_EBA
20.4 SVK_Poprad_MA [Vandal]
11.0 Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
9.4 DEU_MA_o
2.6 HUN_Avar_Period

Retarded clickbait thread.

[Varda]

No, it is mislabeled migration era sample with Balto-Slavic and Germanic autosomal admixture unrelated to actual Illyrians in the study.

Target: Croatia_"MBA_LBA"
Distance: 1.5181% / 0.01518087 | ADC: 0.25x RC

32.6 KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro [Slavo-Asian Mix]
24.0 BGR_Beli_Breyag_EBA
20.4 SVK_Poprad_MA [Vandal]
11.0 Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
9.4 DEU_MA_o
2.6 HUN_Avar_Period

Retarded clickbait thread.

I2-Y3120 was present among Illyrians, live with it!

Bosniensis, Goran Šarić; you guys were right!

[Jana]

I2-Y3120 was present among Illyrians, live with it!

Bosniensis, Goran Šarić; you guys were right!

Stop embarassing yourself.

[Varda]

Stop embarassing yourself.

Ancient Likota is on the top of pyramid https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/

Just deal with it!

[GalenStark]

Stop embarassing yourself.

What about the Czechia La Tene R-L1029 dated to 200-400BCE. Do you have his autosomal profile?

[Varda]

1500-1000 BCE Croatia_MBA_LBA Bezdanjača Cave Croatia I-Y3120 I2a1a2b1a1 HV0a1a http://www.forum.hr/showpost.php?p=90187875&postcount=23

Sample is from cave Brzdanjača near Vrhovine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vrhovine

Unban Bosniensis! :thumb001:


Ancient Likota is on the top of pyramid https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS10228/

Just deal with it!

Albanians in panic. xD

[Ljubic]

Arent we a little bit hasty? Maybe the age estimation is just wrong. The MtDNA is also from Northeast Europe. If not, a tourist just got lost in a cave.

[Jana]

Arent we a little bit hasty? Maybe the age estimation is just wrong. The MtDNA is also from Northeast Europe. If not, a tourist just got lost in a cave.

It's obviously wrong. Autosomaly it has nothing in common with other Iron Age "Croats".

[Arūnas]

unban Bosniensis, and bring me back Bosnjankinja

[Voskos]

https://c.tenor.com/g-wBMa93MygAAAAC/jovan-deretic-svi-su.gif

[JQP4545]

Where did you find these samples in the study? I can't find them in the link you provided...

[Varda]

Where did you find these samples in the study? I can't find them in the link you provided...

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04287-4?fbclid=IwAR0ilv9TnBgFOlpZEAtP9UjNQnx8Vd1_8V44XUj 5foSA7otp2vAlmJUi2Rk

https://forum.poreklo.rs/index.php?topic=1791.msg167086#msg167086

http://pastlives.inantro.hr/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Jankovic-AAPA-2019-poster.pdf

[Varda]

It's obviously wrong. Autosomaly it has nothing in common with other Iron Age "Croats".

That sample is autosomally the closest to modern Montenegrins. If sample is medieval Slavic but wrongly dated, it would be for sure more Slavic/northern shifted. Even modern Likaners are more Slavic/northern shifted than that sample (and Montenegrins).

[Peterski]

32.6 KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro [Slavo-Asian Mix]

^^^ There is no any Asian admixture in that sample.

[Jana]

That sample is autosomally the closest to modern Montenegrins. If sample is medieval Slavic but wrongly dated, it would be for sure more Slavic/northern shifted. Even modern Likaners are more Slavic/northern shifted than that sample (and Montenegrins).

I agree with what Hrvoje wrote on forum.hr, it looks exactly like medieval Kuline sample from Serbia which was below 50% Slavic.

[Jana]

^^^ There is no any Asian admixture in that sample.

I didn't make that model, in my Slavic calculator is scores like Montenegrins, some Serbia Serbs and Romanians. Also no Germanic.

[Peterski]

I didn't make that model, in my Slavic calculator is scores like Montenegrins, some Serbia Serbs and Romanians. Also no Germanic.

I mean KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro is 100% European (Balto-Slavic specifically). There is no any Asian admixture in this guy from Kazakhstan.

[Varda]

Are scientists so retarded to confuse early medieval sample from eastern Serbia with sample from Lika from 1000-1500 BC?

Autosomal of sample from Kulina is surprise, because it's less Slavic than modern Serbs and probably belong to Slavic tribe Timočani (they should be significant more Slavic than modern Serbs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timočani

[Jana]

I mean KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro is 100% European (Balto-Slavic specifically). There is no any Asian admixture in this guy from Kazakhstan.

I know, I even use that sample in my Balto slavic calculator :)

[Jana]

Are scientists so retarded to confuse early medieval sample from eastern Serbia with sample from Lika from 1000-1500 BC?

Autosomal of sample from Kulina is surprise, because it's less Slavic than modern Serbs and probably belong to Slavic tribe Timočani (they should be significant more Slavic than modern Serbs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timočani

Study isn't officialy released yet and lot of samples look misplaced. Maybe they included samples from Reich paper about Danubian frontier. Who knows? But it really looks like Kuline sample which was also I-Y3120 if I am not mistaken. It's mtdna looks northeastern European also.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

There is a Steppe sample from England dated about 3750 BC, an almost fully EEF sample from Czechia dated about 600 BC, or South Slavic sample in Iron Age Balkans. Many samples are not mislabelled, but misdated.

[rothaer]

Are scientists so retarded to confuse early medieval sample from eastern Serbia with sample from Lika from 1000-1500 BC?

Autosomal of sample from Kulina is surprise, because it's less Slavic than modern Serbs and probably belong to Slavic tribe Timočani (they should be significant more Slavic than modern Serbs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timočani

Here's the Slavic calculator (v2.0) result for the mentioned Lika sample:

Target: Croatia_MBA_LBA:I18719___Date:-1250___Coverage_71.77%
Distance: 0.0190% / 0.01895540
45.6 (Balto-)Slavic
40.2 Balkan
12.1 Graeco-Roman
2.1 Turkic

It would be a total outlayer that would be hard to explain in any meaningful way. And yes, such pre-papers can contain such stupid confusions. Ajeje Brazorf mentioned more obvious confusions.

[Jana]

Here's the Slavic calculator (v2.0) result for the mentioned Lika sample:

Target: Croatia_MBA_LBA:I18719___Date:-1250___Coverage_71.77%
Distance: 0.0190% / 0.01895540
45.6 (Balto-)Slavic
40.2 Balkan
12.1 Graeco-Roman
2.1 Turkic

It would be a total outlayer that would be hard to explain in any meaningful way. And yes, such pre-papers can contain such stupid confusions. Ajeje Brazorf mentioned more obvious confusions.

for some reason it is less Slavic than modern Croats from Lika. But interestingly, it's slavic estimate is near identical to that of medieval samples from northeastern Serbia who carried same type of I2!


The Kuline individuals are more shifted towards present-day Slavic-speaking populations as compared to individuals in the Central/Northern European cluster, agreeing with the presence of Y-chromosome lineage I2-L621 in Kuline, which is common in present-day Slavic-speaking groups and absent in earlier periods. In light of these results, we modeled the ancestry of the Kuline individuals as a mixture of 56% deriving from the local Balkan Iron Age substratum and 44% deriving from Northeastern European Iron Age groups, and obtained a good statistical fit

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.458211v1.full

[Peterski]

^^^

Northeastern European Iron Age groups

Which groups?

[rothaer]

for some reason it is less Slavic than modern Croats from Lika. But interestingly, it's slavic estimate is near identical to that of medieval samples from northeastern Serbia who carried same type of I2!

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.458211v1.full

My imagination is this: The closer we come back to the immigration time of Slavs, the more heterogenous in the aspect of Slavic ancestry proportion populations and also individuals will be. The today situtation with just small differences among individuals with the same regional ancestry is the result of a very long lasting mixing process.

[rothaer]

^^^

Which groups?

Slavs. It's just the common very careful formulation of scientists. They can't prove that all these ancestral groups spoke Slavic. At least they don't want to get into such a discussion.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Here's the Slavic calculator (v2.0) result for the mentioned Lika sample:

Target: Croatia_MBA_LBA:I18719___Date:-1250___Coverage_71.77%
Distance: 0.0190% / 0.01895540
45.6 (Balto-)Slavic
40.2 Balkan
12.1 Graeco-Roman
2.1 Turkic

It would be a total outlayer that would be hard to explain in any meaningful way. And yes, such pre-papers can contain such stupid confusions. Ajeje Brazorf mentioned more obvious confusions.

I see you're using the old spreadsheet. Davidski has made new coordinates, I relabelled them.

https://pastebin.com/raw/RNyH9M0F

[Peterski]

My imagination is this: The closer we come back to the immigration time of Slavs, the more heterogenous in the aspect of Slavic ancestry proportion populations and also individuals will be. The today situtation with just small differences among individuals with the same regional ancestry is the result of a very long lasting mixing pocess.

It seems it was the same in East Germany. For example all of Medieval Krakauer Berg samples are fully or nearly fully Slavic, and most of Medieval Lübeck samples (late 1300s) are fully or nearly fully NW Euro:

Sample Lübeck_HGH1600 - distances using K36:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
IS_Iceland
0.9041875
NL_Overijssel
0.9436731
DK_Northern-Jutland
0.9439364
DK_Faroe-Islands
0.9491206
GB_Shetland
0.9769964
DE_Westfalen
0.9770727
DK_Zealand
0.9776641
NO_Vestlandet
0.9782811
(...)

Sample Lübeck_HGH1579 - distances using K36:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
DE_Nordfriesland
1.094312
NL_Drenthe
1.166477
NL_Noord-Holland
1.224142
DE_Schleswig
1.226541
DE_Niedersachsen
1.242422
NL_Gelderland
1.257951
(...)

=====

It seems that people with modern East German genetic profile did not exist in 14th century Lübeck, or at least were not common. PCA graph from the study also shows most plotting like NW Europeans and some plotting like East Europeans (Balto-Slavs).

[rothaer]

It seems it was the same in East Germany. For example, all of Medieval Krakauer Berg samples are fully or nearly fully Slavic, and most of Medieval Lübeck samples (late 1300s) are fully or nearly fully NW Euro:

Sample Lübeck_HGH1600 - distances using K36:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
IS_Iceland
0.9041875
NL_Overijssel
0.9436731
DK_Northern-Jutland
0.9439364
DK_Faroe-Islands
0.9491206
GB_Shetland
0.9769964
DE_Westfalen
0.9770727
DK_Zealand
0.9776641
NO_Vestlandet
0.9782811
(...)

Sample Lübeck_HGH1579 - distances using K36:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
DE_Nordfriesland
1.094312
NL_Drenthe
1.166477
NL_Noord-Holland
1.224142
DE_Schleswig
1.226541
DE_Niedersachsen
1.242422
NL_Gelderland
1.257951
(...)

=====

People with East German genetic profile did not exist in 14th century Lübeck (or at least were not common). PCA graph from the study also shows samples plotting like NW Europeans and a few plotting like East Europeans.

I agree. Even if you ignore population movements after 1945 that Germanic-Slavic proportion thing was not yet really settled and smoothed after centuries. Just think about that Beeskow woman (very Slavic-like) and that Gabel-grandma from Wollin (very Germanic-like).

[rothaer]

I see you're using the old spreadsheet. Davidski has made new coordinates, I relabelled them.

https://pastebin.com/raw/RNyH9M0F

Thanks! Can you summarize what's new? Are also coords for already existing samples changed?

[Peterski]

Yes and even if you ignore population movements after 1945 that Germanic-Slavic proportion thing was not yet really settled and smoothed after centuries. Just think about that Beeskow woman (very Slavic-like) and that Gabel-grandma from Wollin (very Germanic-like).

Ok but my assumption is that people living in Krakauer Berg spoke a Slavic language until year 1400 AD (this is the end-date for the youngest sample). Do you agree? Or do you think that they were Germanized sooner, despite no any influx of German immigrants into the area (as demonstrated by lack of Germanic admixture even as late as 1400)?:

https://i.imgur.com/cN1otZh.png

^^^
Are there any "Ostsiedlung maps" of Bernburg region?

=====

By the way - Beeskow Sorbian area is a very different story - this area was forcibly (through specific government policies and laws, including schools teaching only in German, and sermons in churches only in German) Germanized by Prussian state administration during the 1700s. That's why it was possible without any German admixture.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Thanks! Can you summarize what's new? Are also coords for already existing samples changed?

Coordinates have changed a little but oddities remain.

Before

Target: Croatia_MBA_LBA:I18719___Date:-1250___Coverage_71.77%
Distance: 0.0190% / 0.01895540
45.6 (Balto-)Slavic
40.2 Balkan
12.1 Graeco-Roman
2.1 Turkic

After

Target: Croatia_MBA_LBA:I18719___BC_1250___Coverage_71.77%
Distance: 1.8190% / 0.01818950
45.0 (Balto-)Slavic
42.4 Balkan
11.4 Graeco-Roman
1.2 Turkic

[Peterski]

Slavs. It's just the common very careful formulation of scientists. They can't prove that all these ancestral groups spoke Slavic. At least they don't want to get into such a discussion.

I know, but I meant which Iron Age Northeastern European DNA samples did they use to obtain that 44%! Are there any available? :)

They probably used Turlojiske, Iron Age DNA from Lithuania.

Iron Age DNA from Northeastern Europe is very scarce, check:

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#7/54.277/22.898

[JohnnyP]

I don't know if this is mislabeled sample or not, but I can't accept that balkan I2 ydna is slavic, it's just stupid to believe that "Slavs" came on Balkans to rule and conquer the most war-like people in the world , they conquered 10mil people approximately , they changed their language, names , toponyms, it's okay but if they raid with some superheroes , I believe that there were two fractions of paleo balkans , with I2a+R1b and with J2+EV, R1a is bring later but with some minor migrations. Even I2 is not dominant in most "Slavic" countries, it's like 5-15%, I guess only I2 people came to balkans, that was selection for warriors :D What a nonsense, and I can't understand what is "Slavic" dna ? What suppose to be? Scythians + Baltic tribes ? Really shame on people who believes in slavic migrations, all which is mainstream is lie.

[Jana]

I don't know if this is mislabeled sample or not, but I can't accept that balkan I2 ydna is slavic, it's just stupid to believe that "Slavs" came on Balkans to rule and conquer the most war-like people in the world , they conquered 10mil people approximately , they changed their language, names , toponyms, it's okay but if they raid with some superheroes , I believe that there were two fractions of paleo balkans , with I2a+R1b and with J2+EV, R1a is bring later but with some minor migrations. Even I2 is not dominant in most "Slavic" countries, it's like 5-15%, I guess only I2 people came to balkans, that was selection for warriors :D What a nonsense, and I can't understand what is "Slavic" dna ? What suppose to be? Scythians + Baltic tribes ? Really shame on people who believes in slavic migrations, all which is mainstream is lie.

You are a retard.

[JohnnyP]

You are a retard.

Oh sorry because I'm not sharing same point of view like yours, that automatically makes me retard.

I think people like you needs to stay banned forever.

[Jana]

Oh sorry because I'm not sharing same point of view like yours, that automatically makes me retard.

I think people like you needs to stay banned forever.

I won't waste my time to discuss with sub IQ cretins. It's 2021.

[JohnnyP]

I won't waste my time to discuss with sub IQ cretins. It's 2021.

Izvini Ajnshtajn , nisam te prepoZNO.

[Jana]

^^^


Which groups?

Ingria IA xD

[Jana]

Izvini Ajnshtajn , nisam te prepoZNO.

You have political agenda. Very sad.

[JohnnyP]

You have political agenda. Very sad.

Why would I have political agenda? I'm here to having fun and to show the truth , people are blind, they believe in everything what is served, you seems to have some agenda ,because always raging if someone say something different than your point of view about balkan I2a, it's not first time.

[Jana]

Why would I have political agenda? I'm here to having fun and to show the truth , people are blind, they believe in everything what is served, you seems to have some agenda ,because always raging if someone say something different than your point of view about balkan I2a, it's not first time.

None of ancient Balkan samples are like North Macedonians, and none of them carried Slavic I2-dinaric, sorry.
You are faking history with statues of Greek Alexander in Skopje, keep going but DNA won't hold to your lies.

You are not ancient Macedonians, you are Balkan indo-mestizos.

Deal with it.

[Jana]

What about the Czechia La Tene R-L1029 dated to 200-400BCE. Do you have his autosomal profile?

Yeah, as you saw it looks Germanic. Very interesting.

[JohnnyP]

None of ancient Balkan samples are like North Macedonians, and none of them carried Slavic I2-dinaric, sorry.
You are faking history with statues of Greek Alexander in Skopje, keep going but DNA won't hold to your lies.

You are not ancient Macedonians, you are Balkan indo-mestizos.

Deal with it.


Hahaha , I think you are right ! And I also think you need good f**k, you are too angry for young woman,
I also think you needs to be banned but for real.

[Jana]

Hahaha , I think you are right ! And I also think you need good f**k, you are too angry for young woman,
I also think you needs to be banned but for real.

Johhny the Wise :devil:

[rothaer]

Ok but my assumption is that people living in Krakauer Berg spoke a Slavic language until year 1400 AD (this is the end-date for the youngest sample). Do you agree? Or do you think that they were Germanized sooner, despite no any influx of German immigrants into the area (as demonstrated by lack of Germanic admixture even as late as 1400)?:

https://i.imgur.com/cN1otZh.png

I in general agree with that assumption, but let me say that I just assume KRA001, KRA009 and KRA011 being proxies for proto Slavs. KRA003 is Kashub-like and others plot more western than what I assume proto Slavs. If you use the datings for these, there can be imagined that this was all before 1200 AD. I'd assume that they spoke Slavic till 1200 AD, but I can without any closer knowledge regarding Bernburg area not rule out the other possibility of having been Germanised earlier. It's not impossible. Think about the Upper Silesian Poles in the German Empire, how quickly they Germanised themselves for political reasons. And such individuals in turn can Germanise others without having a differing DNA. The German society has for centuries been not socially very permeable. It therefore seems possible that also after a Germanisation that the population of a village where there maybe were no German additional rural settlements (I don't know the detailed history for that area (yet)) can remain more or less "pure" for quite a while. Think about that that Beeskow woman exists like she does abt. 250 years after a Germanisation.

[Peterski]

(...)

Even the youngest [14th century] indviduals from Krakauer Berg do not seem to be affected (autosomally) by the Ostsiedlung:


Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010 [dated to 1276-1383]
0.02097865 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.02275276 Russian_Smolensk
0.02447118 Belarusian
0.02457952 Polish
0.02513068 Russian_Orel
(...)


Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004 [dated to 1284-1392]
0.02567939 Lithuanian_PA
0.02591797 Lithuanian_VA
0.02981490 Russian_Pskov
0.03141556 Belarusian
0.03141592 Lithuanian_RA
(...)


Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA008 [dated to 1301-1402]
0.02989276 Slovakian
0.03064470 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03075396 Polish
0.03139958 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.03419873 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
(...)


Global25 coordinates:


DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA001,0.129758,0.125926,0.07 5424,0.072029,0.046778,0.026774,0.011986,0.010384,-0.001636,-0.021322,-0.003085,-0.006294,0.008028,0.021194,-0.013843,0.013789,0.019036,-0.005701,0.00352,0.005378,0.004991,-0.008408,0.000986,-0.006145,0.001796
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA002,0.126344,0.129988,0.06 7127,0.059109,0.03693,0.019243,0.007755,0.010615,0 .001227,-0.023508,-0.001949,-0.008842,0.012339,0.014313,0.000136,0.009149,0.007 823,-0.007728,0.002263,0.006128,-0.003369,-0.005935,0.00419,-0.002048,-0.008502
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA003,0.127482,0.121864,0.07 995,0.072675,0.052317,0.013108,0.008695,0.012461,0 .004704,-0.023144,-0.00341,-0.005695,0.016204,0.007019,-0.005836,0.021745,0.020861,-0.001267,0.00176,0.002501,-0.008984,-0.005193,0.005546,0.00976,0.005748
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004,0.12862,0.131003,0.082 967,0.075259,0.048624,0.025937,0.00752,0.011999,0. 002863,-0.019135,0.002111,-0.008692,0.020218,0.021607,-0.0095,0.009546,0.007953,-0.0019,0.005531,0.008504,-0.011355,0.005688,0.005916,-0.01699,-0.004191
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA005,0.120652,0.137096,0.07 1276,0.071706,0.049548,0.01004,0.01081,0.014538,-0.009408,-0.018041,-0.00341,-0.001499,0.003419,0.018717,0.00285,-0.004773,0.003129,-0.002154,0.005154,0.004502,-0.009858,-0.004946,0.008381,-0.007591,0.001796
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA006,0.130897,0.125926,0.06 2979,0.063308,0.040623,0.019801,0.00329,0.013846,0 .001227,-0.020046,-0.00065,-0.01079,0.016353,0.026148,-0.015065,-0.01538,-0.002738,-0.003547,0.005405,-0.007379,0.000624,0.003462,0.00493,-0.006627,-0.001078
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA007,0.129758,0.133034,0.08 2967,0.070737,0.049548,0.026216,0.005405,0.011769,-0.002659,-0.036447,0.003735,-0.01124,0.018285,0.023946,-0.009365,-0.014452,-0.002738,0.001014,-0.001131,0.010755,0.000374,0.001237,-0.001972,-0.009158,0.012214
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA008,0.132035,0.135065,0.07 6555,0.06137,0.043085,0.025937,0.00564,0.007384,0. 002045,-0.02041,-0.010555,-0.005995,0.014569,0.004129,-0.012758,0.001856,0.022035,-0.000633,0.005531,0.002501,-0.00025,-0.002349,-0.001849,-0.006748,0.001078
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010,0.129758,0.123895,0.06 5996,0.065246,0.042777,0.025937,0.007755,0.009461,-0.005113,-0.018588,-0.002273,-0.009442,0.013528,0.021469,-0.00665,-0.012331,-0.009648,-0.007221,0.006662,-0.007504,-0.000499,0.000866,0.007518,-0.003253,-0.000958
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011,0.125205,0.129988,0.07 8818,0.072675,0.047701,0.027889,0.013161,0.006692, 0.005522,-0.020593,-0.00065,-0.009292,0.018583,0.027249,-0.011672,-0.010342,-0.006389,0.00266,0.008045,0.002876,-0.011729,-0.008037,0.007272,-0.003494,0.003952

[rothaer]

Yeah, as you saw it looks Germanic. Very interesting.

Beside a possible small misdating (since abt. 10 BCE there were Germanic Markomanns in Bohemia) EBA Czech Aunjetitz samples seem to score much more Germanic than Celtic-like in the Feiichy ancient Slavic calculator and this even strongly (red marked column is Germanic).

https://i.imgur.com/RuVQxxI.jpg

It's an anachronistic use of the calculator, but I just wanted to say that scoring Germanic with that does not necessarily mean real Germanic. And if so, maybe also samples from 300 BCE can partly score like that.

[Peterski]

Beside a possible small misdating (since abt. 10 BCE there were Germanic Markomanns in Bohemia) EBA Czech Aunjetitz samples seem to score much more Germanic than Celtic-like in the Feiichy ancient Slavic calculator and this even strongly (red marked column is Germanic).

https://i.imgur.com/RuVQxxI.jpg

It's an anachronistic use of the calculator, but I just wanted to say that scoring Germanic with that does not necessarily mean real Germanic. And if so, maybe also samples from 300 BCE can partly score like that.

IMO Feiichy should add CZE_IA_Hallstatt and CZE_IA_La_Tene as reference populations for Celtic.

[rothaer]

Even the youngest [14th century] indviduals from Krakauer Berg do not seem to be affected (autosomally) by the Ostsiedlung:


Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010 [dated to 1276-1383]
0.02097865 Ukrainian_Sumy
0.02275276 Russian_Smolensk
0.02447118 Belarusian
0.02457952 Polish
0.02513068 Russian_Orel
(...)


Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004 [dated to 1284-1392]
0.02567939 Lithuanian_PA
0.02591797 Lithuanian_VA
0.02981490 Russian_Pskov
0.03141556 Belarusian
0.03141592 Lithuanian_RA
(...)


Distance to: DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA008 [dated to 1301-1402]
0.02989276 Slovakian
0.03064470 Sorb_Niederlausitz
0.03075396 Polish
0.03139958 Ukrainian_Rivne
0.03419873 Ukrainian_Zhytomyr
(...)


Global25 coordinates:


DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA001,0.129758,0.125926,0.07 5424,0.072029,0.046778,0.026774,0.011986,0.010384,-0.001636,-0.021322,-0.003085,-0.006294,0.008028,0.021194,-0.013843,0.013789,0.019036,-0.005701,0.00352,0.005378,0.004991,-0.008408,0.000986,-0.006145,0.001796
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA002,0.126344,0.129988,0.06 7127,0.059109,0.03693,0.019243,0.007755,0.010615,0 .001227,-0.023508,-0.001949,-0.008842,0.012339,0.014313,0.000136,0.009149,0.007 823,-0.007728,0.002263,0.006128,-0.003369,-0.005935,0.00419,-0.002048,-0.008502
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA003,0.127482,0.121864,0.07 995,0.072675,0.052317,0.013108,0.008695,0.012461,0 .004704,-0.023144,-0.00341,-0.005695,0.016204,0.007019,-0.005836,0.021745,0.020861,-0.001267,0.00176,0.002501,-0.008984,-0.005193,0.005546,0.00976,0.005748
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA004,0.12862,0.131003,0.082 967,0.075259,0.048624,0.025937,0.00752,0.011999,0. 002863,-0.019135,0.002111,-0.008692,0.020218,0.021607,-0.0095,0.009546,0.007953,-0.0019,0.005531,0.008504,-0.011355,0.005688,0.005916,-0.01699,-0.004191
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA005,0.120652,0.137096,0.07 1276,0.071706,0.049548,0.01004,0.01081,0.014538,-0.009408,-0.018041,-0.00341,-0.001499,0.003419,0.018717,0.00285,-0.004773,0.003129,-0.002154,0.005154,0.004502,-0.009858,-0.004946,0.008381,-0.007591,0.001796
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA006,0.130897,0.125926,0.06 2979,0.063308,0.040623,0.019801,0.00329,0.013846,0 .001227,-0.020046,-0.00065,-0.01079,0.016353,0.026148,-0.015065,-0.01538,-0.002738,-0.003547,0.005405,-0.007379,0.000624,0.003462,0.00493,-0.006627,-0.001078
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA007,0.129758,0.133034,0.08 2967,0.070737,0.049548,0.026216,0.005405,0.011769,-0.002659,-0.036447,0.003735,-0.01124,0.018285,0.023946,-0.009365,-0.014452,-0.002738,0.001014,-0.001131,0.010755,0.000374,0.001237,-0.001972,-0.009158,0.012214
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA008,0.132035,0.135065,0.07 6555,0.06137,0.043085,0.025937,0.00564,0.007384,0. 002045,-0.02041,-0.010555,-0.005995,0.014569,0.004129,-0.012758,0.001856,0.022035,-0.000633,0.005531,0.002501,-0.00025,-0.002349,-0.001849,-0.006748,0.001078
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA010,0.129758,0.123895,0.06 5996,0.065246,0.042777,0.025937,0.007755,0.009461,-0.005113,-0.018588,-0.002273,-0.009442,0.013528,0.021469,-0.00665,-0.012331,-0.009648,-0.007221,0.006662,-0.007504,-0.000499,0.000866,0.007518,-0.003253,-0.000958
DEU_Krakauer_Berg_MA:KRA011,0.125205,0.129988,0.07 8818,0.072675,0.047701,0.027889,0.013161,0.006692, 0.005522,-0.020593,-0.00065,-0.009292,0.018583,0.027249,-0.011672,-0.010342,-0.006389,0.00266,0.008045,0.002876,-0.011729,-0.008037,0.007272,-0.003494,0.003952

Maybe I'm a bit picky, but the bigger red circle on the North Europe PCA is where a number of Slavic samples, also Av2 f. i., do concentrate.

https://i.imgur.com/w7D27nO.jpg

I agree with KRA004 being there, but not KRA008 and KRA010 (both marked with smaller red circles). I see the dating of KRA004, but if also the Beeskow woman as an ethnic German since abt. 250 years can remain as she is, others likely could too. But again, it's still all just a guess. And I think there will be historic information that can enlight this question.

[Peterski]

I in general agree with that assumption, but let me say that I just assume KRA001, KRA009 and KRA011 being proxies for proto Slavs. KRA003 is Kashub-like and others plot more western than what I assume proto Slavs. If you use the datings for these, there can be imagined that this was all before 1200 AD. I'd assume that they spoke Slavic till 1200 AD, but I can without any closer knowledge regarding Bernburg area not rule out the other possibility of having been Germanised earlier. It's not impossible. Think about the Upper Silesian Poles in the German Empire, how quickly they Germanised themselves for political reasons. And such individuals in turn can Germanise others without having a differing DNA. The German society has for centuries been not socially very permeable. It therefore seems possible that also after a Germanisation that the population of a village where there maybe were no German additional rural settlements (I don't know the detailed history for that area (yet)) can remain more or less "pure" for quite a while. Think about that that Beeskow woman exists like she does abt. 250 years after a Germanisation.

I do not believe that they became German-speaking before receiving any influx of German settlers into their area.

You are comparing events from the 19th and early 20th centuries - times when societies were relatively modern - to Medieval times.

You cannot just Germanize illiterate peasants in a society with no school system, no media (no newspapers etc.).

IMO most likely possibility is that they became Germanized in the 1300s or ca. 1400. Possibly they knew some German words earlier.

There is yet another possibility: they never got Germanized and the inhabitants of Krakauer Berg simply died out.


Think about the Upper Silesian Poles in the German Empire, how quickly they Germanised themselves for political reasons.

When using very likely falsified censuses (such as Nazi censuses of 1933, 1939) of course you will observe some "weird quick changes".

But let's look at it:

1. 1925 census (pre-Nazi) - 522 K Poles in the region (but only 154 K were reported as mono-lingual & 368 K bilingual)
2. 1933 census (Nazi) - 366 K Poles in the region
3. May 1939 census (Nazi) - I don't remember, maybe you can tell me if you can find such figures? Around 150 K, right?
4. Post-1945 Polish verification - 800 K confirmed as Polish

So as you can see, we cannot believe Nazi census figures (ca. 150 K in Oppeln Regency in May 1939) if post-war Poland counted 800 K.

And let me remind you it was not so easy to get verified as a Pole post-1945. Those 800 K people made some effort to be Polish [again].

Yes of course there is also a possibility that they are mega opportunists and will betray whenever conditions change.

[Peterski]

Maybe I'm a bit picky, but the bigger red circle on the North Europe PCA is where a number of Slavic samples, also Av2 f. i., do concentrate.

https://i.imgur.com/w7D27nO.jpg

I agree with KRA004 being there, but not KRA008 and KRA010 (both marked with smaller red circles). I see the dating of KRA004, but if also the Beeskow woman as an ethnic German since abt. 250 years can remain as she is, others likely could too. But again, it's still all just a guess. And I think there will be historic information that can enlight this question.

Yes KRA008 and KRA010 have some western shift, but as you can see also some of the older KRA samples have such western shift (so it was already present in this area a few centuries earlier). I think this slight western shift is not Ostsiedlung-related, but rather comes from Restgermanen (and admixture from Restgermanen also did not have to be evenly distributed - it had to take many generations for its level to become even everywhere and in every individual).

[rothaer]

IMO Feiichy should add CZE_IA_Hallstatt and CZE_IA_La_Tene as reference populations for Celtic.

An absolutely understandable thought.

I've been a little bit into discussing source samples. In the source for Celtic-like there are already CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA111 and CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany_DA112. The problem is if you use samples where Germanics and Celts overlap genetically it gets essentitially arbitrary, if a Celtic or a Germanic sample will be used for modelling. So the results will get very volatile and "jumping". (A lot of historical confirmed Germanics will then be modeled Celtic-like. You can do that, but you will then have to re-think what at all you do then mean with "Germanic".) Imo it's better to exclude samples with overlaping genetic for both sides and then model with non-overlaping samples. Then the results get more stable. Someone in between will then getting modeled half-half and not arbitrariily full this or full that.

[rothaer]

(...) IMO most likely possibility is that they became Germanized in the 1300s or ca. 1400. (...)

You are aware of that I consider what you say possible and widely agree to your assumption? I just can not exclude further possiblilities.


When using very likely falsified censuses (...) Nazi (...)
Yes of course there is also a possibility that they are mega opportunists and will betray whenever conditions change.

No cause to bring so much emotions into Krakauer Berg. :)

[Peterski]

No cause to bring so much emotions into Krakauer Berg.

I'm just excited about this Slavic enclave existing even ca. 1400 so far to the west (near Bernburg at the Saale). Maybe there were more of them?

When I was checking these samples for the first time, I was 100% convinced that there was going to be a gradient with only older samples being Slavic, and then the youngest samples being like modern East Germans. I was very surprised that it actually remained Slavic-like until the last (youngest) sample. :)


You are aware of that I consider what you say possible and widely agree to your assumption? I just can not exclude further possiblilities.

OK. I also do not exclude entirely the possibility that they could be Germanized already before receiving German admixture.

We would need to know the context (more information about Krakauer Berg's history and its surroundings) to know for sure.

[rothaer]

(...) We would need to know the context (more information about Krakauer Berg's history and its surroundings) to know for sure.

Yes, but for not derailing this thread about Croatian I2, we should do that somewhere else.

I translate just one sentence from German Wikipedia that I found right now (but I'll look for more relevant information!):

"In 1293, at the instigation of the abbot of the Nienburg monastery, Slavonic is banned as a court language in Anhalt-Bernburg."

[Peterski]

The problem is if you use samples where Germanics and Celts overlap genetically it gets essentitially arbitrary, if a Celtic or a Germanic sample will be used for modelling.

They don't really overlap. Ph2ter posted some heatmaps for them on Anthrogenica:

Czech Iron Age Hallstatt:

https://i.imgur.com/J8cZV8C.png

Czech Iron Age La Tene:

https://i.imgur.com/sFgIevX.png

And - as an example of a Germanic population - Late Iron Age Netherlands:

[of course we can also use some other Germanic example as a reference]

https://i.imgur.com/u1IzdO8.png

[Ajeje Brazorf]

ph2ter posted this on Anthrogenica


Again, one more information which point to I18719 being wrongly dated, this time mtDNA clade of purportedly Bronze Age sample:

https://i.imgur.com/2NyZTau.png

The sample is modern or Medieval.

[GalenStark]

ph2ter posted this on Anthrogenica

By comparison the La Tene sample that is L1029 from Czechia belongs to K1a26 which seems pretty western and is 2800ybp

https://www.yfull.com/mtree/K1a26/

[Dick]

I don't know if this is mislabeled sample or not, but I can't accept that balkan I2 ydna is slavic, it's just stupid to believe that "Slavs" came on Balkans to rule and conquer the most war-like people in the world , they conquered 10mil people approximately , they changed their language, names , toponyms, it's okay but if they raid with some superheroes , I believe that there were two fractions of paleo balkans , with I2a+R1b and with J2+EV, R1a is bring later but with some minor migrations. Even I2 is not dominant in most "Slavic" countries, it's like 5-15%, I guess only I2 people came to balkans, that was selection for warriors :D What a nonsense, and I can't understand what is "Slavic" dna ? What suppose to be? Scythians + Baltic tribes ? Really shame on people who believes in slavic migrations, all which is mainstream is lie.

Full stop, broski. Who gives a fuck about Y-dna when you learn to speak from your mother? You seriously think a few Slavic guys slavicized millions of Balkanites? And who are these warlike people in the Balkans, shiptars? lmao. They would've been destroyed if it wasn't for Nato and that also proves Slavs are more warlike as well

https://i.imgur.com/No7WEye.png

[Peterski]

https://i.imgur.com/2NyZTau.png

BTW, I noticed something interesting within my branch. My subclade has formation time 3900 ybp and TMRCA 3200 ybp, but look at the English subclade which is descended from mine. This English subclade has formation time 3200 ybp, but his TMRCA is only 600 years ago!:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L617/

https://i.imgur.com/bokE5SX.png

How to interpret this?

I guess one possibility is that someone from Poland went to England 600 years ago and founded this lineage?

[Peterski]

And by the way, finally there is an ancient sample with R1b-L617, my clade:

Sample I19857, dated to 1473 BCE, location - Rowbarrow near Salisbury

^^^
This sample is significantly southern-shifted for its location:

Distance to: England_MBA:I19857
0.02057343 French_Brittany
0.02317623 Welsh
0.02483567 Belgian
0.02485918 French_Pas-de-Calais
0.02605153 English_Cornwall

Target: England_MBA:I19857
Distance: 1.6215% / 0.01621511
33.0 Welsh
19.4 Icelandic
14.2 Spanish_Soria
11.6 Basque_Spanish
11.0 Shetlandic
6.2 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
3.2 Darginian
1.4 Ket


=====

Edit:

Wow, there are 4 more R1b-L617s - a group of four close male relatives:

I19360
I19358
I19362
I19363

^^^
Dated to 300-200 BCE - France Grand Est IA2 - Marne, Chemin de Coupetz, Faux-Vesigneul France.

This is undoubtedly Gallic, so my haplogroup is now linked with the Celts.

Distance to: FRA_GrandEst_IA2:I19358
0.03191767 French_Seine-Maritime
0.03523377 Belgian
0.03625177 French_Alsace
0.03650684 Swiss_German
0.03656152 French_Nord

Distance to: FRA_GrandEst_IA2:I19362
0.02578786 Scottish
0.02583422 Orcadian
0.02639681 English
0.02643703 Welsh
0.02753693 German

[JohnnyP]

None of ancient Balkan samples are like North Macedonians, and none of them carried Slavic I2-dinaric, sorry.
You are faking history with statues of Greek Alexander in Skopje, keep going but DNA won't hold to your lies.

You are not ancient Macedonians, you are Balkan indo-mestizos.

Deal with it.

Btw , Greece Helladic Logkas 04 is closest to Macedonians on K13 , also was on G25 updated spreadsheet.

Distance to: Greece_MBA_Log04
6.68161657 Macedonian-Central
6.78817354 Macedonian-East
8.03475575 Macedonian-North
8.27756607 Macedonian-South
8.43821071 Vlach(Aromanian)_average
8.53050409 Bulgaria_Southwestern
8.63423998 Albanian_Gheg
8.81241738 Bosniak_Sandzak
8.87257009 Bulgaria_Southeastern
8.98715750 Italian_Friuli_VG
9.14957376 Romania_Muntenia
9.16182296 Albanian


Middle bronze age sample have 15% "slavic" admixture :D
Target: Greece_MBA_Log04
Distance: 1.3132% / 1.31324224
51.8 Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman
31.7 Germanic
15.1 Slavic
1.4 Turkic

[Dick]

Btw , Greece Helladic Logkas 04 is closest to Macedonians on K13 , also was on G25 updated spreadsheet.

Distance to: Greece_MBA_Log04
6.68161657 Macedonian-Central
6.78817354 Macedonian-East
8.03475575 Macedonian-North
8.27756607 Macedonian-South
8.43821071 Vlach(Aromanian)_average
8.53050409 Bulgaria_Southwestern
8.63423998 Albanian_Gheg
8.81241738 Bosniak_Sandzak
8.87257009 Bulgaria_Southeastern
8.98715750 Italian_Friuli_VG
9.14957376 Romania_Muntenia
9.16182296 Albanian


Middle bronze age sample have 15% "slavic" admixture :D
Target: Greece_MBA_Log04
Distance: 1.3132% / 1.31324224
51.8 Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman
31.7 Germanic
15.1 Slavic
1.4 Turkic

This result is total nonsense and autosmaltardism at it's finest. Meta ethnicities didn't even exist back then

[Glauk]

Full stop, broski. Who gives a fuck about Y-dna when you learn to speak from your mother? You seriously think a few Slavic guys slavicized millions of Balkanites? And who are these warlike people in the Balkans, shiptars? lmao. They would've been destroyed if it wasn't for Nato and that also proves Slavs are more warlike as well

https://i.imgur.com/No7WEye.png


Mater serbsko prljavo u picku….
I vse babice u grobu …..

Skraba skavelska

[Dick]

Mater serbsko prljavo u picku….
I vse babice u grobu …..

Skraba skavelska

A conquered people usually speak the conqueror's tongue

[Teutonski]

Full stop, broski. Who gives a fuck about Y-dna when you learn to speak from your mother? You seriously think a few Slavic guys slavicized millions of Balkanites? And who are these warlike people in the Balkans, shiptars? lmao. They would've been destroyed if it wasn't for Nato and that also proves Slavs are more warlike as well

https://i.imgur.com/No7WEye.png


https://i.gifer.com/NYVl.gif

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Btw , Greece Helladic Logkas 04 is closest to Macedonians on K13 , also was on G25 updated spreadsheet.

Distance to: Greece_MBA_Log04
6.68161657 Macedonian-Central
6.78817354 Macedonian-East
8.03475575 Macedonian-North
8.27756607 Macedonian-South
8.43821071 Vlach(Aromanian)_average
8.53050409 Bulgaria_Southwestern
8.63423998 Albanian_Gheg
8.81241738 Bosniak_Sandzak
8.87257009 Bulgaria_Southeastern
8.98715750 Italian_Friuli_VG
9.14957376 Romania_Muntenia
9.16182296 Albanian


Middle bronze age sample have 15% "slavic" admixture :D
Target: Greece_MBA_Log04
Distance: 1.3132% / 1.31324224
51.8 Paleo_Balkan_&_Roman
31.7 Germanic
15.1 Slavic
1.4 Turkic

Samples with pseudo-Slavic admixture existed but they were a minority, far from being representative of the average population. I am very similar to a sample that lived around 300 BC, but that sample would not have been representative of the average population until several centuries later

https://i.imgur.com/1s5R7CH.png

[CommonSense]

BTW, I noticed something interesting within my branch. My subclade has formation time 3900 ybp and TMRCA 3200 ybp, but look at the English subclade which is descended from mine. This English subclade has formation time 3200 ybp, but his TMRCA is only 600 years ago!:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L617/

https://i.imgur.com/bokE5SX.png

How to interpret this?

I guess one possibility is that someone from Poland went to England 600 years ago and founded this lineage?

I don't understand. His subclade is not descended from yours but parallel to it.

R-BY194358 -> R-BY194358* (yours) and R-FTA78382

[Leto]

Samples with pseudo-Slavic admixture existed but they were a minority, far from being representative of the average population. I am very similar to a sample that lived around 300 BC, but that sample would not have been representative of the average population until several centuries later

https://i.imgur.com/1s5R7CH.png
You are very, very Southern. I think even in Southern Italy your Baltic is fairly low. Do your parents come from rural areas?

[Leto]

I don't know if this is mislabeled sample or not, but I can't accept that balkan I2 ydna is slavic, it's just stupid to believe that "Slavs" came on Balkans to rule and conquer the most war-like people in the world , they conquered 10mil people approximately , they changed their language, names , toponyms, it's okay but if they raid with some superheroes , I believe that there were two fractions of paleo balkans , with I2a+R1b and with J2+EV, R1a is bring later but with some minor migrations. Even I2 is not dominant in most "Slavic" countries, it's like 5-15%, I guess only I2 people came to balkans, that was selection for warriors :D What a nonsense, and I can't understand what is "Slavic" dna ? What suppose to be? Scythians + Baltic tribes ? Really shame on people who believes in slavic migrations, all which is mainstream is lie.
The amount of Slavic ancestry in North Macedonia is similar to Medieval Turkic admixture in Western Turkey. Like 25-30%.
Start speaking Greek and join Greece then if you really despise Slavdom. I would easily dispense with you low Baltic/low R1a fucks!

[Ajeje Brazorf]

You are very, very Southern. I think even in Southern Italy your Baltic is fairly low. Do your parents come from rural areas?

My mother is from a city of 60,000+, my father is from a rural area but I don't think it has anything to do with lower Baltic.

https://i.ibb.co/fdJTLj3/map.png

[Peterski]

I don't understand. His subclade is not descended from yours but parallel to it.

R-BY194358 -> R-BY194358* (yours) and R-FTA78382

By "mine" I meant BY194358 (because * means that they didn't find any further mutations downstream of BY194358).

The English guy is user Garimund from Anthrogenica. Our common ancestor lived ca. 3200 years ago based on that.

There are also ethnic Poles who are L617>Y46619 and I share a common ancestor with them ca. 3900 years ago:

https://i.imgur.com/CkQfPIV.png

How could these two distinct sub-branches of L617 reach Polish territories independently from each other?

Or perhaps L617 was already present in what is today Poland ca. 3900 years ago, and branched off here?

[Leto]

My mother is from a city of 60,000+, my father is from a rural area but I don't think it has anything to do with lower Baltic.

https://i.ibb.co/fdJTLj3/map.png
So you're not even Calabrian. Now I wonder if you look just as Southern as your Gedmatch results xD And don't hate on me for that! There was a fag called Sikeliot who taught us all about the Lebanese connection. I wonder where that dipshit is now 'cause Anthrogenica banned him too years ago. Oh boy.

[Jana]

The amount of Slavic ancestry in North Macedonia is similar to Medieval Turkic admixture in Western Turkey. Like 25-30%.
Start speaking Greek and join Greece then if you really despise Slavdom. I would easily dispense with you low Baltic/low R1a fucks!

They are more Slavic than that. 25-30% is average figure for Albanians and northern Greeks, not for north Macedonians.

[CommonSense]

By "mine" I meant BY194358 (because * means that they didn't find any further mutations downstream of BY194358).

The English guy is user Garimund from Anthrogenica. Our common ancestor lived ca. 3200 years ago based on that.

There are also ethnic Poles who are L617>Y46619 and I share a common ancestor with them ca. 3900 years ago:

https://i.imgur.com/CkQfPIV.png

How could these two distinct sub-branches of L617 reach Polish territories independently from each other?

Or perhaps L617 was already present in what is today Poland ca. 3900 years ago, and branched off here?

I guess it's just further proof that there was extensive contact between Celtic and Proto-Slavic people. I-Y3120 which is widespread among all Slavs has also been established as having roots from further west.

[Peterski]

I-Y3120 which is widespread among all Slavs has also been established as having roots from further west.

I don't think that this is already proven beyond doubt.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

So you're not even Calabrian. Now I wonder if you look just as Southern as your Gedmatch results xD And don't hate on me for that! There was a fag called Sikeliot who taught us all about the Lebanese connection. I wonder where that dipshit is now 'cause Anthrogenica banned him too years ago. Oh boy.

Picture of me below:

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/cc/8d/1d/cc8d1dcceb109f9c6938478c13e6dd74--creepy-man-ugly-men.jpg

[Peterski]

Picture of me below:

https://i.pinimg.com/236x/cc/8d/1d/cc8d1dcceb109f9c6938478c13e6dd74--creepy-man-ugly-men.jpg

Impossible, that is not you, but a Late Imperial patrician. Later Longobards arrived and gave him ~20% admixture: :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanqueamiento

https://i.imgur.com/agfRd76.png

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Impossible, that is not you, but an Imperial Roman patrician. However, later Longobards arrived and gave you ~20% admixture: :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanqueamiento

https://i.imgur.com/agfRd76.png

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

By the way, :focus:

[-Scar-]

Impossible, that is not you, but a Late Imperial patrician. Later Longobards arrived and gave him ~20% admixture: :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanqueamiento

https://i.imgur.com/agfRd76.png

Ahahaha. Longobards did not pull Italy north though.

[Peterski]

Ahahaha. Longobards did not pull Italy north though.

Who did?

[-Scar-]

Who did?

IMO, it's sample bias. Some 5% Germanic contribution is the right percentage.

[JohnnyP]

They are more Slavic than that. 25-30% is average figure for Albanians and northern Greeks, not for north Macedonians.

Okay,

https://i.imgur.com/cIvuhnP.png